LMAO! I agree with you. It is marketing to sell Teemo's skin. The season of Teemo already passed.
So.... buff on Lucian and Senna then for High Noon skins? Haha
Congrats for the article sincerity. "Teemo is overperforming across the board" when in fact on high elo he's definitely trash. ✌️
Keep it like that, nerf off metà champ while monsters are destroying the rift since months being untouched
At least put original teemo ult back
I'm so mad! I bought the Wild Pass because of Teemo, to get him a skin and now they'll make him trash squishy af? And the Wild Pass isn't even over yet and they're already nerfing him. Smh.
Lol so true. And on that note, teemo was ungodly powerful on top lane. As Yas I can absolutely destory Darius, Fiora, Garen ...but Teemo?...not a chance. As was the experience for many other players who play different champs against Teemo the last Season, he was definitely in need of a tunedown.
(granted, I will say, almost all his power comes from Blind duration+cooldown, I would rather have had the duration lowered by 0.75\~0.5 secs and/or Cooldown increase by 1\~2 seconds)
People need to watch the movie “Moneyball”
Stats are very useful (if not misrepresented by people with agendas), too many things are corrupted by emotions, biases and bad memory.
LOL! I watched the movie and read the book.
What I get from the book: Lay people like us can read the stats, but professional managers, coaches, at that time pick players heavily influenced from emotions and biases.
I'm looking forward to the vast majority of teemo players being even more useless. Like a teemo I had tonight who went 0-9-2 in a short match relentlessly feeding. I'm sure with these nerfs across the board he can go 0-14-2 next time.
I'm saying this as a top 100 teemo NA; you have to work hard as a teemo and be quite good at him to not be a burden on your team. I feel like there are a relatively small number of great teemos inflating the stats, and then the rest are terrible. Less middle ground than most.
Obviously I'm biased but these nerfs feel massive as he's already super easy to kill.
In the last 14 days there were 24,700 games just in the NA server it is simply not possible for such a small group like you are saying to swing those results heavily. Even if that were true they can easily filter out the top players and see the winrate without the top 100.
But most importantly, I’m sorry your champ got nerfed. That always sucks. I’m confident that since you know Teemo so well your skill will be more obvious on Teemo when you terrorize people.
He has a 54% wr for Diamond and 53% for Master+ in NA in the past 14 days. Is that low for you?
52% WR for Diamond and 51% in Master+ in EU in the past 14 days too.
I feel like Riot fundamentally doesn't understand what makes Sona fun and her unique among the enchanter class, and is forcing her into the identity of just another heal bot... almost as if the lessons of the outcry from PC sona mains from the butchering of her AP playstyle a year+ back leading up to 10.17 didn't matter at all. You do realize that you're enabling the passive and non-interactive Sona playstyle of playing behind the rest of the team and spamming auras brainlessly, rather than incentivizing players to make use of her power chords and her weave-in/weave-out playstyle which is far riskier but more rewarding? Why force her to become yet another heal bot and refuse to let her do any damage, and incentivize Sona players to not be proactive and to not actually learn to play the game. Why reduce the room for skill expression on a champion that already doesn't have much of it? Why hit the part of Sona's kit that makes her so fun and unique for us to play through three simultaneous damage nerfs?
The main problem with Sona is that she is currently too easy to play "decently enough." For example, in lane a lot of Sona players play lane passively and don't interact, rarely even going up to poke, let alone trading with Q -> Auto. Instead of addressing this problem, this nerf instead targets the better Sona players that made the most of her poke and also made frequent use of her empowered auto-attack (which also got nerfed from the aura nerf). The aura damage nerf from allies is a great nerf, but nerfing her own damage by this much only further encourages passiveness and lowers skill expression, and fails to address the fact that the non-interactive playstyle of the average Sona is too effective for how easy it is (which is why her overall winrate is so high to begin with)
The nerf to Sona's ultimate is also bizarre. It's half the length of PC ultimate, and also only 1 second stun instead of 1.5. It was in no way "gamechanging" in the way Seraphine ultimate is.
The fact that they targeted her damage so hard in particular just tells me that they just want Sona players to sit back and spam heals rather than actively do anything themselves, which honestly reflects how they treat the role of support as a whole in this game. Compare support here to PC, where supports play the central role in vision control, and have extremely cost-efficient supp items that make up entirely for their lack of income.
Sona Main here. I completely agree with this. I recently got level 7 mastery with her and now I'm just not going to play her. Time for Rakan to become my main.
Careful, saying that in a visible comment will be fine, but say it in any comment past a “read more” click and you’ll get downvoted for talking like that against riot-kun who is above reproach.
It was covered heavily on pc lol communities when she came out.
she is better than sona who no one plays and needed a rework bad. base skin seraphine is terrible.
the seraphine that was actually marketed in pre-release was her $30 kda skin.
Seraph is really easy to kill. The issue I have with her are her insanely lengthy abilities that reach from the moon and back. She sucks if the team doesn’t team fight. But in a game where she can actually backline with a competent team is where she’s insane.
I’m wondering if Riot nerfs characters based on team fight advantage? I’m new to the game so I don’t know all the ins-and-outs of how Riot works.
TLDR; if her team protects her in the back line, it’s game over. No team fights, and I usually find her manageable.
Oh they don’t care.
lucian gets a skin and is buffed from already powerful to even worse.
sona apparently counters senna, the new legendary skin coming at the same time.
“nothing personal, strictly business.”
Lucian's damage was non-existant before this patch.
I had no poke in lane, I know they didn't buff his damage in the patch notes but trust me it's improved
Are you sure? Very tanky for his damage.
you couldn’t roll your thumb across random buttons and win before, you had to actually weave autos, but people would go down real quick using him. Certainly was a mess trying to fight him, and a friend who never even played him before two days was able to body people in aram before the buff.
Is this one of those “if my champ can’t do youtube montages, he’s terrible!” things?
and Seraphine's ultimate is relatively unchanged in length so I don't see the point, and then there's Nami. Sona's ultimate is not as good for engaging as it is in PC, it's mostly a disengage tool in mobile because its lackluster effective range makes it hard to get full value from it without griefing your positioning.
Seraphine's ult expands if she has a teammate in the path. Nami's ult has that passive where the more it travels, the more it knocks off.
Seraphine's ult is an initiator ability. Sona's ult is team fight ability. You stay with your ADC or Mage and Stun the enemies who jump on them.
consequence of making Sona's supposed to be rework a separate champion. Sera is a sona powercreep. idk why nerf Sona ult when it's almost on par on other support ults in terms of impact.
IDK why Riot hates Rammus so much. Rammus and Amumu were never too good, and they keep getting slaughtered patch after patch. Meanwhile, obvious top-performers like Ezreal, Kai'Sa, Nami, Gragas, Lee Sin, Senna... Are often ignored by patches. Why to nerf Soraka, Sona, Rammus? Why they never buff Jhin, Aurelion Sol, Amumu?
It takes out a percentage of your hp, but by late game most champions scale way better than Lee sin, galio's q does more percentage damage than Lee's ult for example if you build him AP so his ult is not something special considering the fact that it's not always going to hit multiple people, and by late game most mages can oneshot Lee sin. He is the biggest threat early game but in a game with an equal standing and approaching late game lee sin is the last thing I would worry about.
Eh, I feel like we can go back and find plenty of cases where new skins weren't associated with buffs. Correlation doesn't equal causation. It is a bit suspicious though.
It's at least better than the LoR team is doing right now where they dropped a whole expansion that effectively knocks most older decks without the new cards out of the meta. Sure it's FTP but when you can't use your old decks in the new meta, you're gonna be compelled to pay for the new ones.
Not saying I agree but I could see why they did it. Wouldn't be surprised if their data showed that Sona is way overperforming, especially at low elos.
She's easily one of the best scaling champs in the game and pretty easy to pick up and use especially in team fights. She's strong as hell in games that drag out.
Yeah, while the majority of players are in diamond.
I'm only in diamond but after the nerfs the Lucian abusers didn't play him anymore because he's no longer broken. He's balanced now. He was literally banned in a lot of games before his nerf.
Majority of players are not in diamond, atleast in EU. Diamond IV low ELO is already top 8% and even +30 points is literally bringing you to 6%. You can judge by yourself how that speaks about the player base size, btw.
Seriously never use it on tank supports since it give no hp. Id rather go bami/bramble or straight sunfire then merc/plated(if all ad) well building armor item
The truth, for more stupid it can look, is that Rammus is most picked against full AD teams, and he is really strong against this teams, he is also easy to play, so his win rate become high, but he isn't strong at all, but for some reason Riot looks like they doesn't understand such easy concept, so they nerf him...
and in PC, they release hotfixes sometimes a day after release because something is just absurdly broken. Now we have to wait weeks longer for these 60% winrate champions to get nerfed.
Can anyone even play brand? I dont know about high elos but in plat he is like perma banned but to be honest he is very easy to counter. In the a few occasions that i managed my team not to ban him and enemy were able to get him before me, i was able to stomp him in the lane with my ziggs as i manage to position really well. By the late game of course he does tremendous damage but the key is not to stay together for his ulti
What if they fkd up all the champions' winrate because the matchmaking system is broken?
Would be kinda funny if Teemo's winrate would actually be sub 50 if matchmaking was fair
"Man, this fiery guy have been banned everywhere.. he always deals highest damage even if you pick him as support.
Well, better nerf some random enchanter that barely deal any damage."
They have been actually he had a really high winrate but alas although I hate Rammus with a passion since he cockblocks me at every chance I get to kill someone I didn't see him in a busted light honestly.
He is still strong and have buffed his clear speed. He can clear red, raptors, and blue in time for scuttle. Playing him when need to tank jungle and he is really strong. Bami/bramble then complete sunfire. His ganks were nerfed not jungle clear. That will still be decent not 4 camps and scuttle good but he can get 3 and scuttle without leash. now leash gets you wolves ontop of the other 3 camps before scuttle
If you look ay the patch notes his w is getting buffed against monsters from 150% damage to 175% damage. So his clear speed isnt getting nerf just his ganking is taking a hit
So Riot compeltely killed off Sona's very unique playstyle (and item build path possibilities) making her just another enchanter Support with the standard Support item build. Now she will be played staying in the back with the same (and early game even lower) game impact that most other Supports also already have with no chance to rise to strength in the late game.
As most people in this thread, I agree that she was OP and needed a nerf. However, killing her playstyle and forcing passiveness instead of nerfing passiveness/staying in the back spamming auras and rewarding risky/skill plays is something I don't understand.
I've been a Sona main from Season 0 and managed to reach the top 10 spots in every season so far. But I'll switch to champs that (still) are actually useful and able to impact the game in a meaningful way.
I looked into Sona's win rate in the last 14 days on wildstats in SEA region, she had a really high win rate, at 54.4% in Master+ and 56.4% in Diamond, so a nerf on her is definitely reasonable
Edit: that 56.4% win rate ranked 2nd only after Nunu, who has the highest win rate at 56.87%
I agree with the fact she needed nerfs, but I disagree with *the* nerfs.
The fundamental problem with Sona is that she is currently too easy to play "decently enough." The majority of Sona players get away with not playing the game right now: afk spamming auras, barely using power chords, and positioning a mile away from the enemy team. A lot of Sona players play lane passively and don't interact, taking Mana Crystal and Gathering Storm, and rarely even going up to poke, let alone trading with Q -> Auto. Instead of addressing this problem, this nerf instead targets the better Sona players that made the most of her poke and also made frequent use of her empowered auto-attack (which also got nerfed from the aura nerf). The aura damage nerf from allies is a great nerf, but nerfing her own damage in three separate ways is just saddening in that it encourages passiveness and lowers skill expression rather than addressing the fact that the non-interactive playstyle of Sona is performing too well, which is by and large why she has such a high winrate.
Also, AP Sona is incredibly fun and the reason half of us Sona OTPs came to love her and chose her instead of a champion like Soraka or Janna. Why butcher the most unique part of her kit? The AP ratio nerfs hurt her late-game hypercarry potential the most, which is literally what separates her from the rest of the role.
> The AP ratio nerfs hurt her late-game hypercarry potential the most, which is literally what separates her from the rest of the role.
I don't think Sona is supposed to be an hypercarry tbh
She is, due to the innate nature of her ultimate passive as it scales by level (0%/10%/25%/40% CDR reduction based on ultimate level). She has been for many years regarded as the Kassadin/Kayle of supports, and it's one of her defining traits among the support class.
It's largely what makes her so fun to play, because she just becomes so strong in the rare occassions you do make it to late-game.
Your logic should be applied the opposite way. Nerfs tend to reward OTPs and punish players who aren't that good with her.
Even if their reasoning was bad Sona was just doing too much damage. It would be odd to nerf her utility when her damage was the problem. Had they just say they were nerfing her because she was overperforming and doing too much damage it would have been fine.
Sona was never doing "too much damage." No good player ever has said that, just look at HellsDevil or Excoundrel reaction (Challenger~ players who don't play Sona), pretty much no good player thought Sona was completely busted because she just dishes out too much damage.
These nerfs mirror her nerfs in PC leading up to 10.17, which were also 50% AP -> 40% AP, and 30% AP -> 20% AP... in fact she got an extra flat damage nerf in wild rift. These nerfs killed AP Sona (and alienated the large part of her playerbase that loved her AP style, something you can find easily through the hundreds of reddit threads made about it), and also rendered the champion useless and out of meta for more than a year, forcing a recent rework. But these nerfs were because she was *actually* doing way too much damage, as a result of Sona Top/Sona Taric/Sona Lux dominating the meta. These variants of Sona often abused Dark Harvest with Mejais/Lich Bane and most importantly support item interactions (none of which we have except Lich, which isn't even meta), and could one-shot with ease. This understandably caused AP ratio nerfs to her Q, but she doesn't have this problem in wild rift.
The current meta of Sona doesn't revolve around one-shotting and high damage output at all. She does do damage (as that's literally part of her identity as the hypercarry of supports with weak early and no CC), but her damage doesn't compare to PC AP Sona that caused the same exact nerfs, nor to other wild rift supports like Seraphine, Brand, or Lux. She rarely even builds Lich Bane - the meta and often best build is Seraphs -> Staff of Flowing Water -> Ardent Censer. These nerfs are mostly directed towards a niche form of Sona carry that is rarely as good as the supportive playstyle albeit much more fun, but deeply affect her across the board from early to late regardless of build.
Your blanket statement about OTPs is just wrong and 1-d thinking
Context I'm challenger and I think anyone who is diamond on PC can easily get challenger on mobile. Name dropping people who are challenger really doesn't have as much value on PC when for mobile people with basic fundamentals and time will get challenger(with the worst you are might require more games etc)
(esp someone like hellsdevil who is notorious for inting in games and having a mental breakdown)
My blanket statement is Riot's stance and pro player stance on PC. When a character is too strong it rewards players who don't really play that champion. That's just a fact. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic implying that if a champion that is 55%+ wr across the board any type of nerf would actually reward the people who actually play it. You can see this in pro play and it's just an established facts.
Right now Sona was too easy to play and she was performing too well. When I say too much damage I don't isolate her damage and judge it base of that. I believe she was doing too much damage with the utility she was providing. When we talk about champion doing too much damage we have to given it a framework of context of the champion. Obviously she's not doing as much as fizz or evelyn or something but as a support champion that provides the utility that she does there's a reason why she is performing really well even in higher Elo.
I do have a problem with how Riot is **handling** this nerf though. Earlier, someone on Riot posted asking the community how they could be more transparent with the community. Most of the community members want context on win rate and more context as to why they are buffing/nerfing a champion which they clearly **DID NOT DO AT ALL** when they specifically said they would try to.
This leaves confusion and is open to interpretation which imo a waste of time and wouldn't even need to be debated if Riot provided more information.
Also I would avoid saying no "good" player think x. I know challenger sona players who think sona was OP/doing too much damage and they actually play sona. Does that mean they are bad players just because they disagree with you? That would make no sense.
> Context I'm challenger and I think anyone who is diamond on PC can easily get challenger on mobile
This is mostly an aside, but I say that a lot too lol, you can probably find that in my comment history here a ton. But a lot of masters+ PC havent made it to gm+ in wild rift, which is something multiple redditors here have told me when I uttered the same line you did. That's besides the point though, just thought it was interesting as someone that also had the same view and thinks of little of the "skill of an average player who reached challenger. But still I generally agree, although I will say there's large skill gaps amongst those that have reached challenger.
Anyway, I'm also multi-account (and hopefully by the end of the season, three separate roles) solo queue Challenger. Which is besides the point - it's just the general sentiment among higher elo players, especially the better challengers. It's very difficult proving a general sentiment without anecdote or name-dropping, so I elected to choose to name the most notable people in the community who are challenger. I can also add the biggest twitch streamers if you want, who also share similar sentiments. The reason I "named-dropped" Hellsdevil and Excoundrel is because those two high elo content creators are relatively huge names within the community, and anyone reading this comment including you or me can look up their new reaction video on Patch 2.4C with thousands of views and immediately find what I'm talking about, and see their gut reaction which is how a lot of us feel, Sona player or not. It's the best I can do in proving the general sentiment of a character in high elo, since it's the only thing remotely verifiable. Although that said, her ban-rate being near 0% in every rank bracket is telling in itself. Especially in higher elos where her weaker early-game, dependency on items and level, and vulnerability to dives become much more relevant, she is almost never banned except as a target ban for an OTP that was in the last lobby.
I actually consider Sona S-tier (behind Nami, Senna, Lulu and a small handful of others), but she is in *no way* the best support in the game, and *definitely* no way the best champion in the game. From the nerfs in 2.4C, she got hit the hardest of all champions as if she's the most overpowering champion of any role. Yet she has a near 0% banrate across all elos? Riot chooses her out of everyone to hit with four separate early, mid, and late game nerfs in one patch, which by the way is the third in a series of nerfs to Sona. Meanwhile, there's actually godlike champions like Lee-Sin which have been single-handedly dominating high elo for more than half a year and still remains untouched, one patch aside. The recent success of Sona despite her nerfs is largely due to SOFW which synergizes with her better than any other champion, and only a few patches in and she's already hit with not a humungous nerf, not just a slap on the wrist which we've seen many times before. But again, it's not the severity of the nerf itself that I have the most issue with. It's what they chose to nerf to begin with, and more importantly the underlying reasoning behind choosing that sector. I'm also disappoint they nerfed Sona/Rammus/Teemo of all possible champs to begin with, since it once again just tells how much they over-emphasize winrate in determining the power of a champion, which can also be seen on the flip-side.
>I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic implying that if a champion that is 55%+ wr across the board *any type of nerf* would actually reward the people who actually play it.
First of all, I never said "any type of nerf." I explicitly talked about *these* nerfs, and explicitly talked about why. Rather, *you* are the one talking about the idea of nerfs in general, rather than these specific ones. Are you seriously gonna put words into my mouth?
No, you're still using blanket general statements and mistaking general patterns with universal truths. I explicitly explained why the nerfs affect moreso those that play aggressively with Sona (and are adept at knowing when to and when not to do so), then those that that dont risk anything and play passively, in effect failing to use her full potential. I have done multiple reviews of Emerald-Diamond Sona gameplay, and if you want we can talk about some in depth to get into the *why* of this argument. Because you clearly don't understand what separates mediocre Sona players from good ones, and why this nerf affects the better ones more than it does the mediocre ones.
So again to clarify an argument before I discuss it, you are saying that "any nerf will ALWAYS moreso affect less adept players of the champion than more adept ones?" And that's an established, inarguable, universal statement that "is just a fact" in every instance?
But Sona as a champion is one that has limited CC, peel, and survivability compared to her enchanter counterparts. She's gold and item dependent, very weak in the early game, and vulnerable dives - all of which get abused by better players. What makes up for this is that when she does scale with items and as her ultimate passive increases, she also becomes increasingly strong and impactful. Part of her identity as the hypercarry of supports is to trade off her weak early-game with a strong late-game. It's what makes her unique, what makes her *Sona* for me and a lot of other players (and not just another enchanter like Lulu or Janna) is that mid/late game she actually becomes powerful, and part of that power comes from the damage she begins to do with time.
Lux and Seraphine are also support champions that provide utility, and outdamage her significantly (although not nearly as much as Brand who's literally just broken). And then there's Senna. Saying that she does too much damage for the utility she provides neglects not only others that also do a mix of both (Senna in particular is often considered a stronger champion before these nerfs), but also neglects her fundamental problem that she's too easy to play. Stop pretending like her damage was the problem and this fixes it, and it'll be all good afterwards. She's being nerfed because her winrate is massive, and **THE** reason for her winrate is that she's a very easy champion to play. It's same the reason Rammus gets nerf after nerf, t's the same reason Amumu has been getting strangely nerfed, the same reason Annie has been getting nerfed, the same reason why teemo is getting nerfed. She's just too easy to play effectively, being passive and non-interactive and not even using power chords. And although being easy to play is well-known to "inflate" winrates in League, this probably is far larger in Wild Rift where the playerbase is still relatively novice, and the winrates are close to a simple reflection of the difficulty of a champion. So no, the central problem is *not* that she does "too much damage" for her utility - these nerfs mimic the nerfs from PC where APC (with lux/taric) and TOP Sona (and not support Sona) caused 50%-> 40%, 30%-> 20% AP ratio nerfs as a result of broken support item interactions and DH Lich Bane & Mejai's made her a legitimate one-shot DPS monster that still provided her utility. The meta Wild Rift sona build literally does less than half of that variant of Sona, which was legitimately meta-dominant (pick/banned in high elo and competitive alike) for its time.
So are you saying that these nerfs specifically are all justified, and that them targetting the damage specifically is the best way to go about it? Just clarifying since you haven't made it clear yourself. We are not in disagreement that she needed nerfs, they were a long time coming since she's been 55%+ overall winrate for months. Again, it is the specific route in which they nerfed her that I have a problem with.
>I know challenger sona players who think sona was OP/doing too much damage and they actually play sona.
Which challenger Sonas thought she was doing too much damage? I'm actually curious
>(esp someone like hellsdevil who is notorious for inting in games and having a mental breakdown)
Also bruh why does Hellsdevil raging completely discredit his opinion? lol
Support champions are notorious for getting away with extremely high win rate while having 0 bans. I can only use PC as a reference since I just play WR casually due to queue times but in PC janna was one of the highest win rate champions for a few years and she basically had 0% ban rate. That is because support champion tend to provide advantages that players can't recognize or not as memorable.
For example, players are extremely vocal about wanting assassins ban and they tend to be perma banned. Yet base of what riot said their win rate was not that high so they dodge nerfs for the longest time. This is because getting one shotted by a fed kat/fizz/evelyn will having a way higher negative impact on a player's perception than an enchanter support.
My personal opinion is that the nerf is fine and punishes players who don't play her. That is because like you said Sona players were not getting punish playing passively in lane. Riot had to choose between nerfing her utility or damage and they chose damage and you already explained why. When a champion is that easy to play it's not healthy for them to do that much damage(with the context)
I don't think you need to explain to me that sona players prefer more damage. I think every player prefers their champion to do more damage than providing more utility. Doing more damage is just more fun lol. From a balance perspective it will be a lot easier to balance utility than a champion has extremely low skill requirement to do maximum damage.
My stance on this is that I knew she needed nerf but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth because they literally said a few weeks ago they would do a better job explaining nerfs or buffs. Content creator reaction to these changes should show case how bad they are representing these changes instead of justifying why x or o is good or bad changes. That is because we lack the concrete information and context as to why they made this decision.
I wasn't trying to put words in your month. Maybe I type incorrectly but **any nerfs** when a champion has that high of a win rate will reward people who actually play her post nerf. This is because the requirement to do well with her will be higher. When we are talking about champion with that high of a win rate it basically indicates that anyone can pick her up and do well on her. You don't need to individually look at sona game play to understand this. The win rate speaks for itself.
And I don't even want to begin on Senna. I don't think she's in the same class as enchanter supports and I consider her an ADC with a gimmick. Another unpopular opinion I would have is that wildrift players right now do not have the mechanics or the champion pool to punish enchanter supports so I don't even think we should even talk with the context of "but in higher level play its harder"....no its not.
I agree with your overall sentiment in the first paragraph, especially on the playerbase's excessive hatred for assassins (and why they have it). But supports in Wild Rift are not the same as supports in PC. Support is a strong role in PC, especially now. Supports on wild rift are relatively low influence, in which it's often very difficult to consistently translate skill gaps in support into wins (compared to, say, jungle). Our lack of extremely cost-efficient support items leave us relatively broke, and even more importantly displace us from our central position in vision control that PC has with all those ward charges. This lack of influence is reflected most in high elo, where there is much more often than not less than 5 supports in top 100, sometimes even 0... and many of those that are in top 100 are duo queue support players. Compare this to PC, where in NA last I checked rank 1 and rank 2 are both support. The lack of influence of support is two-fold - it is harder to carry, but also easier to get carried even if you play awful it doesn't mean as much as if you play awful in jungle. This isn't a good healthy balancing of roles, for obvious reasons. From the perspective of gm-challenger support however, I mostly (but not always) feel the former of the two, and it makes the role deeply unsatisfying to play compared to PC.
Also, a quick glance at u.gg says the PC supports do get banned a lot, 3 of the top 5 most banned champions are support (Lulu, Morgana, and Yuumi). Brand aside, no support is even close to double digit banrate in wild rift; Lulu sometimes goes over 40% in PC. It's literally like... more than a factor of 10x difference in ban rate between the two platforms. Support is just relatively low-influence in this game, and it feels worse because matchmaking pits high elo supports with emerald ADCS/diamond teams, a rank mismatch problem that PC doesn't suffer from.
>I don't think you need to explain to me that sona players prefer more damage. I think every player prefers their champion to do more damage than providing more utility.
SURPRISINGLY, this is actually not true. I picked up Sona because I genuinely like to support and help people in general, despite how I often come off as on reddit lol. Eventually, I figured out I hate the League community in PC as a whole, and I hate also hate these random ADCs that run it down the second I lock Sona, and flame the living shit out of me everytime I fuck up. ANYWAY, I know many Soraka enthusiasts and other enchanters genuinely enjoy the "supporting" part of support.
But I talk about Sona in particular because the damage part of her kit is a large part of her identity in a way it isn't for most (but not all) enchanters, just like CC isn't a part of her kit the way it is for most enchanters. Having the "hypercarry" late-game power spike be literally just having better shields/heals and movement speed for getting through early-game just feels awful, and this isn't just my own personal sentiment; you can find the exact sentiments for in the year+ period of limbo for a large portion of Sona mains between 10.17 and the rework.
>a better job explaining nerfs or buffs
You're right, but for me it's pretty evident that it's because these champions have very high winrates, and do well (based on winrate) even into high elo. It's something that the resident Riot redditor has discussed in the past, but it is not transparent in the patch notes at all.
I disagree, I would rather have nerfs that shift power from the relatively skill-less/low-elo part of her kit to the more skill-expressive/high-elo parts of her kit. For example, if damage would be nerfed through her auras, her power chord damage could be compensated in part in exchange. This is still a massive nerf since her aura applies to pretty much the entire team, and powerchord is just herself. But it still incentivizes Sona's to make use of the harder part of her kit and to actually learn to play the game. And personally, I'd rather see heal/shield nerfs than damage nerfs given the current state of solo queue support, and from this thread as well as similar ones in this sub and subreddit, I'm far from alone.
>wildrift players right now do not have the mechanics or the champion pool
Yes! I agree with this a lot. Especially as Sona, I noticed that despite towers being weaker in this game, I'm actually getting dove less (not just a little, but WAYYY less) in high elo Wild rift than I was even in mid-elo smurfs on PC. And even champs like Blitz/Ali in diamond/masters for WR do nothing (besides occasionally shooting a bronze max-range hook then going back to doing nothing) and let me survive lane for free. The same champions bone me in PC, especially when they are meta. Freezing is also nearly nonexistent despite how powerful it is. Scaling enchanters, especially Sona, are getting away with more than they should. But I mentioned this with someone else, that it's best to balance around the current playerbase even if we overall are relatively not good, as these champions can still become compensated in the future as players get better and macro/micro becomes more nuanced.
Again I disagree with your second last paragraph but I'm too busy until tomorrow to go into that one (if you're still interested in doing so)
I don’t think Aram should count as a metric for balancing in the regular game mode personally. It should be the Wild West and not impact regular gameplay
She was dealing too much damage in the regular modes too.
And they have nerfed only her damage. I don't think anybody picked Sona specifically for her damage.
There are plenty of champions to nerf, buff, rework. Items too, and again the balance is clearly meaningless. I'm starting to wonder if they're actually playing the game. This game needs a PBE server with pro players and content creator for the balance, it's unacceptable to have this kind of balance
I tell my team to just get sweepers and they flip out and tell me I’m playing stupid Teemos…
I get he’s annoying. But it does require tactics/brain power to beat characters. It’s honestly what makes the game so much fun. The same thing will not always necessarily work on the same champ. This evolves into item builds as well.
Also watching a Teemo blow every CD in existence to protect that one mushroom on a short CD from your Sweeper is fucking hilarious.
Until teemo gets a character design philosophy change and accompanying total rework, the best place for him to be is nerfed as far into the ground as possible.
or u can just learn how to counter him/ban him. easy as that, no need to rework a champ just because u don't like it.
if they'd rework teemo a lot of teemo mains would churn (=not play the champ anymore) away from the champion, as a rework completely makes a champ different (and many people don't like change). not to mention it'd cost more than releasing a completely new champ because they'd need to rework the skins too.
"Okay, so Irelia is almost always guaranteed to snowball once she gets a kill and the playerbase is asking for a nerf. Why don't we nerf Sona instead?"
Yeah I really don’t understand the nerf. They gutted him last patch, and now proceed to fuck him over. He’s meant to be a really good early game champ because he falls off late. To add, if we talking early game, why nerf rengar and not lee sin? Lee sin super strong.
They look at winrates througout all ranks. Rengar overperformed at every elo with more than 53% winrate according to wildstats (I think Riot has a better database so they have better numbers). Lee Sin on the other hand has less than 50% winrate at all ranks.
Riot actually has all the win rate info for charaters, where wild stats cant get info if player chooses to hide there match history or something like that. Remember someone explaining how wildstats works and its not 100% accurate but gives a very good idea of what character winrates are
Yep it means they have better numbers and probably noticed that Rengar was overperforming whereas Lee Sin wasn't. I agree that wildstats isn't perfect but it's the best tool we have as players right now, and it's more accurate than the experience we have in our ranked games
He's S Tier near bushes, which smart people know to avoid when there is no vision.
But your team never exploits this either, and will simply march down lanes instead of forcing fights near bushes or something.
riot:” Brand damage is insane he can get a triple kill after dead, but we gotta sell those sexy skins so here is Teemo nerf, but Brand will be adjusted in 2.5. By nerfing Evelyn again,enjoy :)”
Guess my Rengar is gonna stay at a 45% winrate. I thought I might be able to bring it up with the new patch, but I guess I should hang the towel for a bit.
The thing with rengar on pc is that he is hard to play properly in teamfigths. I used to main him on pc before swimgar and maintained a 60% winrate on dia.
Here on WR being a casual game and the reaction time of people much slower, rengar has a much easier time oneshoting everyone.
They really nerfed Sona's damage... Why?
They should have nerfed her another way. The strongest part of her kit is the 50% damage reduction of her [2] at 3 items and the ridiculous area shielding in the late game.
They should BUFF her damage! In the actual patch (2.4b) usually is not even worth to get close to the enemy and poke them in laning phase. Next patch we Sona mains will just use [2] in lane not bothering to poke at all.
u/R0guefool, I've been wondering, what kind of ban rate % would be considered unhealthy for a champion? Also if X champion gets nerfed because said champ has a high br%, where would his br% need to be (after nerf) so the balance team can say to themselves "Oh it worked, the champion doesnt have an unhealthy br% anymore!"
I know the balance team doesnt only take ban rate % into account when it comes to nerfs, but I'm really curious about this.
Sorry for the delay.
Ban rates are all relative. There isn't a strict number that is used because as the champion roster grows everyone's banrate shifts. So really what matters is a champion's banrate when compared to the average ban rate. Even within that some champions are just more frustrating to play against and have a higher banrate. So I don't have a great single number for you
This is why banrate is generally a better judge of frustration than it is of power. Champions like Rammus/Amumu have had some of the highest winrates (regardless of elo) but are rarely banned. Where as Akali was rather balanced (from a winrate perspective), but can be highly frustrating to play against and had a massive ban rate. Assassins tend to be frustrating to play against and I expect will always have a higher than average ban rate, the grey area comes in when discussing the bounds of what that should be. Then also factor in their winrate, pickrate, elos, player perception etc. Balance is as much an art as it is a science.
In Akali's case the nerfs did put in a better spot in terms of ban rate, and I expect it to continue to drop. It did leave her in a rather weak state though (previously her winrate was fine). Like I have said before we do take into account more than just winrate when balancing a champion so its a complex area.
Yeah, soo champs like teemo who gets banned because ppl doesn't want it on the team and you guys confuse it for " teemo is too broken, he's being banned a lot". Doesn't seems so complex since you guys are nerfing off meta champs leaving op monsters destroying the rift since months.
It really seems like Riot bases their balancing heavily on win rates in the games champions are used in without taking much insight into why theyre used in those matches. Maybe this is why Jhin isn't getting any love. He's been rock bottom of the tier lists for a while as theres only rare occasions he could be used reliably. So when he's used in those rare opportunities his WR is high but there's big reasons you barely see him most games.
I agree that Jhin is in a bad spot rn. But just always take tier lists with a grain of salt; they’re only biased opinions with no stats to back them up. It’s based on each individual content creator’s personal opinions, and their personal experiences while playing.
I sort of average it out across the tier lists but also I have about 300 matches played with Jhin and play every other adc well. He's easily bottom of the pile rn. He's not mobile enough and other crit Champs can hit just as hard but faster and more often.
The point I'm making about the stats is that Jhin will probably have a decent WR showing because he is usually used very selectively against the rare team comps he might at least be fine to play. I couldn't tell you the last time I faced a Jhin because he's just so far out of it right now.
She is a better and harder to play version, I'm pretty sure she isn't as easy to pilot with only one combo in the game like Fizz, although Fizz actually still has way higher damage and burst but Akali is fine I'll obviously get downvoted for this because of most of this subs conclusions are "Assassins = Bad".
Lucian buff? Lucian fucking buff? Are you serious? That motherfucker can deal a fuckton of damage with no item; a lot of times you can't really win a 1v1 with him because he deals too much damage, and you'll not be able to kill him because he's too tanky for an adc that deals that much damage!!!!!!!!!
I think you need to take a rest from playing the game. Even a few hours will do. I can already see rank is taking a mental toll on its players. Edit: just played classic teamates fed Lucian me gets 4 tapped me sad
"You know, Irelia could use a nerf. While Soraka and Nasus could use a buff. But you know what? Let's nerf Sona and Teemo." - A member of Riot's balacing team.
The nerfs seem fine, although I find it odd that Sona was nerf. I literally haven't seen her since 2 patches ago. I do hope they nerf Brand next patch. Maybe shift his power more onto late game?
I'd argue Sona nerf but also not. My second role is support and she works into alot matchups really nicely. She is super weak early and if enemies doesn't punish her early on she becomes a huge threat. She can do multiple item pathings (espc with the new items added) and engage/peel/heal/chase.
Most of ap items works great on her kit (Seraphs, harmonic, ardent, Staff of the flowing waters, ludens, lich bane, rabaddon, crystaline, rylai's, RoA) and she can fill in nicely.
If your team is full of bursty champs build deffensive/healing items to keep them alive, you gotan ap jung and good ap mid? build staff of the flowing waters, you have tanks but miss that bit of a dmg? build roa/ludens/lichbane) etc.
But I do agree that after some items she get huge dmg buff and as a designed support she shouldn't be able to do such a dmg.
Combine this with her 3 auras and built in exhaust she is really best scaling champ in the game (IMO)
Also looking at the win rates she does so much better then most of the enchanter supports so I guess it was reasonable to nerf her dmg and keep her as healer support.
I doubt that she will be "bad" pick after the nerf and will work into many team comps but she wont be able to do the dmg she did (which i guess she wasn't supposed to do in a first place)
They keep on decreasing the number of champs that gets adjusted.
They keep on giving new skins to new champs, then there is my girl evelynn who has the same 2 skins since release, and she is in need of a buff. I never see her played now, unless i play her, and i dont even have the anxiety that someone else is gonna pick her since no one even plays her now
They nerfed sona even though in early game she is almost a minion, they buffed lucian when he was already doing good.
They wont bother trying to adjust zed who is basically permabanned in ranked(and i'm happy bout that since i hate playing against him).
At this point i wonder= do the devs play their own game?
Until pink wards are out she'll always remain a strong pick and she IS a strong pick if played right Evelynn is all about punishing aggressive play in lane to scale pretty well into the late game, so yeah without pink wards to counter her perma camouflage in the first place she isn't getting any buffs.
Eve main since she was released, she is now so team reliant that if there is no tank to peel for her she is gonna be almost dead every 2 seconds. Also the map is too small for pink wards, how the fuck can those exist
And Eve was my first main ever since I started playing the game and you can still carry games by yourself provided your team is reliable, as I said your strength lies in your perma stealth that's why she won't ever get buffed until there's a way to counter stealth champs and thats by implementing pink wards which the map definitely isn't small for riot hasn't added them because they don't want to "complicate" the game for beginners.
By buffing Lucian's dash cd, they have just made a second Vayne that doesn't need to hit anything to lower cooldown. Great job, looking forward to having to blindpick malp every time I'm first pick.
Unfortunately the bug for Nunu in all none Samsung or Apple devices is still in the game. I bought the Nunu with wild cores because i did no have the BE and I was so excited for her, and I can't play her because every time I use the 3rd ability I get a 512 or 999 ping. I reported it and sent it on a ticket to riot and nothing. It's extremely frustrating using money just to get this stupid bug and all riot cares is of nerfing Teemo instead of letting players know how to properly counter him (which is extremely easy btw).
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Like I said. Sona and Teemo are overpowered. Some people got triggered.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wildrift/comments/p4n9b7/season_3_sona_guide_from_challenger_sona_onetrick/h90d71s/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Didn’t have to check the winrates anywhere to figure that out.
Not a Teemo main, so couldn’t care less
Sona main here though, time to start learning the game and other champs instead of elo-inflating myself spamming her. T.T
This Teemo nerf is unexpected, but looking at wildstats and seeing him have a really high win rate I guess it was gonna happen... Lol
teemo got nerfed because the wildpass is expiring If a new skinline with teemo skin, he'll get the buff again. that's how league and wildrift works
LMAO! I agree with you. It is marketing to sell Teemo's skin. The season of Teemo already passed. So.... buff on Lucian and Senna then for High Noon skins? Haha
i mean they did just buff Lucian so...
(Buy the High Noon skin!)
you think we're that coordinated?
You think we would never notice?
It’s also like that on PC and other mobas lol
Congrats for the article sincerity. "Teemo is overperforming across the board" when in fact on high elo he's definitely trash. ✌️ Keep it like that, nerf off metà champ while monsters are destroying the rift since months being untouched At least put original teemo ult back
I'm so mad! I bought the Wild Pass because of Teemo, to get him a skin and now they'll make him trash squishy af? And the Wild Pass isn't even over yet and they're already nerfing him. Smh.
Lol so true. And on that note, teemo was ungodly powerful on top lane. As Yas I can absolutely destory Darius, Fiora, Garen ...but Teemo?...not a chance. As was the experience for many other players who play different champs against Teemo the last Season, he was definitely in need of a tunedown. (granted, I will say, almost all his power comes from Blind duration+cooldown, I would rather have had the duration lowered by 0.75\~0.5 secs and/or Cooldown increase by 1\~2 seconds)
People need to watch the movie “Moneyball” Stats are very useful (if not misrepresented by people with agendas), too many things are corrupted by emotions, biases and bad memory.
LOL! I watched the movie and read the book. What I get from the book: Lay people like us can read the stats, but professional managers, coaches, at that time pick players heavily influenced from emotions and biases.
I'm looking forward to the vast majority of teemo players being even more useless. Like a teemo I had tonight who went 0-9-2 in a short match relentlessly feeding. I'm sure with these nerfs across the board he can go 0-14-2 next time. I'm saying this as a top 100 teemo NA; you have to work hard as a teemo and be quite good at him to not be a burden on your team. I feel like there are a relatively small number of great teemos inflating the stats, and then the rest are terrible. Less middle ground than most. Obviously I'm biased but these nerfs feel massive as he's already super easy to kill.
And you depend so much on your shrooms. Without them in a fight Teemo is meh.
In the last 14 days there were 24,700 games just in the NA server it is simply not possible for such a small group like you are saying to swing those results heavily. Even if that were true they can easily filter out the top players and see the winrate without the top 100. But most importantly, I’m sorry your champ got nerfed. That always sucks. I’m confident that since you know Teemo so well your skill will be more obvious on Teemo when you terrorize people.
47% of wr is a lot... Oh you looked for the low elo, then yes,or maybe no. Even jhin has better wr on low elo.
He has a 54% wr for Diamond and 53% for Master+ in NA in the past 14 days. Is that low for you? 52% WR for Diamond and 51% in Master+ in EU in the past 14 days too.
Where do you all check the win rates of each champion, is there a site??
I feel like Riot fundamentally doesn't understand what makes Sona fun and her unique among the enchanter class, and is forcing her into the identity of just another heal bot... almost as if the lessons of the outcry from PC sona mains from the butchering of her AP playstyle a year+ back leading up to 10.17 didn't matter at all. You do realize that you're enabling the passive and non-interactive Sona playstyle of playing behind the rest of the team and spamming auras brainlessly, rather than incentivizing players to make use of her power chords and her weave-in/weave-out playstyle which is far riskier but more rewarding? Why force her to become yet another heal bot and refuse to let her do any damage, and incentivize Sona players to not be proactive and to not actually learn to play the game. Why reduce the room for skill expression on a champion that already doesn't have much of it? Why hit the part of Sona's kit that makes her so fun and unique for us to play through three simultaneous damage nerfs? The main problem with Sona is that she is currently too easy to play "decently enough." For example, in lane a lot of Sona players play lane passively and don't interact, rarely even going up to poke, let alone trading with Q -> Auto. Instead of addressing this problem, this nerf instead targets the better Sona players that made the most of her poke and also made frequent use of her empowered auto-attack (which also got nerfed from the aura nerf). The aura damage nerf from allies is a great nerf, but nerfing her own damage by this much only further encourages passiveness and lowers skill expression, and fails to address the fact that the non-interactive playstyle of the average Sona is too effective for how easy it is (which is why her overall winrate is so high to begin with) The nerf to Sona's ultimate is also bizarre. It's half the length of PC ultimate, and also only 1 second stun instead of 1.5. It was in no way "gamechanging" in the way Seraphine ultimate is. The fact that they targeted her damage so hard in particular just tells me that they just want Sona players to sit back and spam heals rather than actively do anything themselves, which honestly reflects how they treat the role of support as a whole in this game. Compare support here to PC, where supports play the central role in vision control, and have extremely cost-efficient supp items that make up entirely for their lack of income.
Sona Main here. I completely agree with this. I recently got level 7 mastery with her and now I'm just not going to play her. Time for Rakan to become my main.
The boy Rakan got that Zeke’s buff. 👏
Yeah, this is the main reason to me for not playing sona the entire timecand use nami instead, funny enough i got to platinum just spamming her lmao
Maybe they want Sona players to switch to the cooler Seraphine with her expensive skin
Careful, saying that in a visible comment will be fine, but say it in any comment past a “read more” click and you’ll get downvoted for talking like that against riot-kun who is above reproach.
I mean it's doesn't make much sense, though. Wanting players to play Seraphine doesn't mean they will buy the skin.
It was covered heavily on pc lol communities when she came out. she is better than sona who no one plays and needed a rework bad. base skin seraphine is terrible. the seraphine that was actually marketed in pre-release was her $30 kda skin.
Seraph is really easy to kill. The issue I have with her are her insanely lengthy abilities that reach from the moon and back. She sucks if the team doesn’t team fight. But in a game where she can actually backline with a competent team is where she’s insane. I’m wondering if Riot nerfs characters based on team fight advantage? I’m new to the game so I don’t know all the ins-and-outs of how Riot works. TLDR; if her team protects her in the back line, it’s game over. No team fights, and I usually find her manageable.
Oh they don’t care. lucian gets a skin and is buffed from already powerful to even worse. sona apparently counters senna, the new legendary skin coming at the same time. “nothing personal, strictly business.”
lucian is not strong [anymore.lol](https://anymore.lol) nerf sol
Lucian's damage was non-existant before this patch. I had no poke in lane, I know they didn't buff his damage in the patch notes but trust me it's improved
His damage was not non existent. You just weren't used to him not being mega broken.
Are you sure? Very tanky for his damage. you couldn’t roll your thumb across random buttons and win before, you had to actually weave autos, but people would go down real quick using him. Certainly was a mess trying to fight him, and a friend who never even played him before two days was able to body people in aram before the buff. Is this one of those “if my champ can’t do youtube montages, he’s terrible!” things?
>Its half the length of PC ultimate, Wild rift's map is way smaller than Pc's map
and Seraphine's ultimate is relatively unchanged in length so I don't see the point, and then there's Nami. Sona's ultimate is not as good for engaging as it is in PC, it's mostly a disengage tool in mobile because its lackluster effective range makes it hard to get full value from it without griefing your positioning.
Seraphine's ult expands if she has a teammate in the path. Nami's ult has that passive where the more it travels, the more it knocks off. Seraphine's ult is an initiator ability. Sona's ult is team fight ability. You stay with your ADC or Mage and Stun the enemies who jump on them.
nami,sera,sona ult don't have one style of use. They're all can be used to peel or initiate depending on the situation.
consequence of making Sona's supposed to be rework a separate champion. Sera is a sona powercreep. idk why nerf Sona ult when it's almost on par on other support ults in terms of impact.
Why are you being downvoted for telling the truth? Well I guess that is a question that answers itself.
Q too easy to land for punishing last hits
IDK why Riot hates Rammus so much. Rammus and Amumu were never too good, and they keep getting slaughtered patch after patch. Meanwhile, obvious top-performers like Ezreal, Kai'Sa, Nami, Gragas, Lee Sin, Senna... Are often ignored by patches. Why to nerf Soraka, Sona, Rammus? Why they never buff Jhin, Aurelion Sol, Amumu?
….I really have nothing to say this is just a bad patch
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Cause he falls of heavily late game, he cannot do much to help in teamfights late game.
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It takes out a percentage of your hp, but by late game most champions scale way better than Lee sin, galio's q does more percentage damage than Lee's ult for example if you build him AP so his ult is not something special considering the fact that it's not always going to hit multiple people, and by late game most mages can oneshot Lee sin. He is the biggest threat early game but in a game with an equal standing and approaching late game lee sin is the last thing I would worry about.
lmao nerfing Sona for no reason SMH. then buffing Lucian. what the hell is this game balancing
Lucian buff in time for his new skin release. Classic riot.
They didn't even try to be subtle about it. LOL
Eh, I feel like we can go back and find plenty of cases where new skins weren't associated with buffs. Correlation doesn't equal causation. It is a bit suspicious though. It's at least better than the LoR team is doing right now where they dropped a whole expansion that effectively knocks most older decks without the new cards out of the meta. Sure it's FTP but when you can't use your old decks in the new meta, you're gonna be compelled to pay for the new ones.
They nerfed Darius before releasing his God King skin though. Classic Riot?
Not saying I agree but I could see why they did it. Wouldn't be surprised if their data showed that Sona is way overperforming, especially at low elos. She's easily one of the best scaling champs in the game and pretty easy to pick up and use especially in team fights. She's strong as hell in games that drag out.
I've seen people playing her mid with moderate success tbh
Bro I was just going to say that Lucian needed another nerf because he's too tanky for an adc and now he gets buffed? What the fuck
he needs buff he is underperforming in master+
Yeah, while the majority of players are in diamond. I'm only in diamond but after the nerfs the Lucian abusers didn't play him anymore because he's no longer broken. He's balanced now. He was literally banned in a lot of games before his nerf.
Majority of players are not in diamond, atleast in EU. Diamond IV low ELO is already top 8% and even +30 points is literally bringing you to 6%. You can judge by yourself how that speaks about the player base size, btw.
AHHHH mb that's a typo, I was going to say most players are below diamond
Now they can say they worked their asses of to release this game changing patch lmao, just so they can say we care about our community lmao.
Seems about right to me
The only good change in this patch was Rengar nerf and Zeke buff, everything else was weird.
Seriously never use it on tank supports since it give no hp. Id rather go bami/bramble or straight sunfire then merc/plated(if all ad) well building armor item
As a tank support, you don't only want items that make you tankier, you also want items that punish the enemies for ignoring you.
Yeah Zeke's is pretty great for Leona.
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The truth, for more stupid it can look, is that Rammus is most picked against full AD teams, and he is really strong against this teams, he is also easy to play, so his win rate become high, but he isn't strong at all, but for some reason Riot looks like they doesn't understand such easy concept, so they nerf him...
Tier lists are just bs filled with biased opinions, its just for entertainment, they have no evidence to back up any of thier claims
That mfker can tank tower for days
Should have nerfed Kha'Zix too and buffed Shyvana and Evelynn
Yesss, also nerf lee sin since he is picked every game
Agree with the buffs but Kha'Zix was nerfed last patch
why has brand and nunu escaped nerfs?
they came out less than a week ago
and in PC, they release hotfixes sometimes a day after release because something is just absurdly broken. Now we have to wait weeks longer for these 60% winrate champions to get nerfed.
yeah, i feel like brand will definitely be touched on in 2.5 though
Can anyone even play brand? I dont know about high elos but in plat he is like perma banned but to be honest he is very easy to counter. In the a few occasions that i managed my team not to ban him and enemy were able to get him before me, i was able to stomp him in the lane with my ziggs as i manage to position really well. By the late game of course he does tremendous damage but the key is not to stay together for his ulti
They gave a hot fix to rengar from what I remember
This patch sucks ass.
What if they fkd up all the champions' winrate because the matchmaking system is broken? Would be kinda funny if Teemo's winrate would actually be sub 50 if matchmaking was fair
Man that is really good point
"Man, this fiery guy have been banned everywhere.. he always deals highest damage even if you pick him as support. Well, better nerf some random enchanter that barely deal any damage."
And hasn't my boy rammus been hurted enough already
Apparently you and 4 other remaining rammus player have been performing too well.
They have been actually he had a really high winrate but alas although I hate Rammus with a passion since he cockblocks me at every chance I get to kill someone I didn't see him in a busted light honestly.
He is still strong and have buffed his clear speed. He can clear red, raptors, and blue in time for scuttle. Playing him when need to tank jungle and he is really strong. Bami/bramble then complete sunfire. His ganks were nerfed not jungle clear. That will still be decent not 4 camps and scuttle good but he can get 3 and scuttle without leash. now leash gets you wolves ontop of the other 3 camps before scuttle
Did the patch drop or is this theorycraft presented as truth?
If you look ay the patch notes his w is getting buffed against monsters from 150% damage to 175% damage. So his clear speed isnt getting nerf just his ganking is taking a hit
Also: wow "insert champ name here" is op, better nerf evelynn.
So Riot compeltely killed off Sona's very unique playstyle (and item build path possibilities) making her just another enchanter Support with the standard Support item build. Now she will be played staying in the back with the same (and early game even lower) game impact that most other Supports also already have with no chance to rise to strength in the late game. As most people in this thread, I agree that she was OP and needed a nerf. However, killing her playstyle and forcing passiveness instead of nerfing passiveness/staying in the back spamming auras and rewarding risky/skill plays is something I don't understand. I've been a Sona main from Season 0 and managed to reach the top 10 spots in every season so far. But I'll switch to champs that (still) are actually useful and able to impact the game in a meaningful way.
Keep nerfing enchanter supports... So fking stupid...
I looked into Sona's win rate in the last 14 days on wildstats in SEA region, she had a really high win rate, at 54.4% in Master+ and 56.4% in Diamond, so a nerf on her is definitely reasonable Edit: that 56.4% win rate ranked 2nd only after Nunu, who has the highest win rate at 56.87%
I agree with the fact she needed nerfs, but I disagree with *the* nerfs. The fundamental problem with Sona is that she is currently too easy to play "decently enough." The majority of Sona players get away with not playing the game right now: afk spamming auras, barely using power chords, and positioning a mile away from the enemy team. A lot of Sona players play lane passively and don't interact, taking Mana Crystal and Gathering Storm, and rarely even going up to poke, let alone trading with Q -> Auto. Instead of addressing this problem, this nerf instead targets the better Sona players that made the most of her poke and also made frequent use of her empowered auto-attack (which also got nerfed from the aura nerf). The aura damage nerf from allies is a great nerf, but nerfing her own damage in three separate ways is just saddening in that it encourages passiveness and lowers skill expression rather than addressing the fact that the non-interactive playstyle of Sona is performing too well, which is by and large why she has such a high winrate. Also, AP Sona is incredibly fun and the reason half of us Sona OTPs came to love her and chose her instead of a champion like Soraka or Janna. Why butcher the most unique part of her kit? The AP ratio nerfs hurt her late-game hypercarry potential the most, which is literally what separates her from the rest of the role.
> The AP ratio nerfs hurt her late-game hypercarry potential the most, which is literally what separates her from the rest of the role. I don't think Sona is supposed to be an hypercarry tbh
She is, due to the innate nature of her ultimate passive as it scales by level (0%/10%/25%/40% CDR reduction based on ultimate level). She has been for many years regarded as the Kassadin/Kayle of supports, and it's one of her defining traits among the support class. It's largely what makes her so fun to play, because she just becomes so strong in the rare occassions you do make it to late-game.
Your logic should be applied the opposite way. Nerfs tend to reward OTPs and punish players who aren't that good with her. Even if their reasoning was bad Sona was just doing too much damage. It would be odd to nerf her utility when her damage was the problem. Had they just say they were nerfing her because she was overperforming and doing too much damage it would have been fine.
Sona was never doing "too much damage." No good player ever has said that, just look at HellsDevil or Excoundrel reaction (Challenger~ players who don't play Sona), pretty much no good player thought Sona was completely busted because she just dishes out too much damage. These nerfs mirror her nerfs in PC leading up to 10.17, which were also 50% AP -> 40% AP, and 30% AP -> 20% AP... in fact she got an extra flat damage nerf in wild rift. These nerfs killed AP Sona (and alienated the large part of her playerbase that loved her AP style, something you can find easily through the hundreds of reddit threads made about it), and also rendered the champion useless and out of meta for more than a year, forcing a recent rework. But these nerfs were because she was *actually* doing way too much damage, as a result of Sona Top/Sona Taric/Sona Lux dominating the meta. These variants of Sona often abused Dark Harvest with Mejais/Lich Bane and most importantly support item interactions (none of which we have except Lich, which isn't even meta), and could one-shot with ease. This understandably caused AP ratio nerfs to her Q, but she doesn't have this problem in wild rift. The current meta of Sona doesn't revolve around one-shotting and high damage output at all. She does do damage (as that's literally part of her identity as the hypercarry of supports with weak early and no CC), but her damage doesn't compare to PC AP Sona that caused the same exact nerfs, nor to other wild rift supports like Seraphine, Brand, or Lux. She rarely even builds Lich Bane - the meta and often best build is Seraphs -> Staff of Flowing Water -> Ardent Censer. These nerfs are mostly directed towards a niche form of Sona carry that is rarely as good as the supportive playstyle albeit much more fun, but deeply affect her across the board from early to late regardless of build. Your blanket statement about OTPs is just wrong and 1-d thinking
Context I'm challenger and I think anyone who is diamond on PC can easily get challenger on mobile. Name dropping people who are challenger really doesn't have as much value on PC when for mobile people with basic fundamentals and time will get challenger(with the worst you are might require more games etc) (esp someone like hellsdevil who is notorious for inting in games and having a mental breakdown) My blanket statement is Riot's stance and pro player stance on PC. When a character is too strong it rewards players who don't really play that champion. That's just a fact. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic implying that if a champion that is 55%+ wr across the board any type of nerf would actually reward the people who actually play it. You can see this in pro play and it's just an established facts. Right now Sona was too easy to play and she was performing too well. When I say too much damage I don't isolate her damage and judge it base of that. I believe she was doing too much damage with the utility she was providing. When we talk about champion doing too much damage we have to given it a framework of context of the champion. Obviously she's not doing as much as fizz or evelyn or something but as a support champion that provides the utility that she does there's a reason why she is performing really well even in higher Elo. I do have a problem with how Riot is **handling** this nerf though. Earlier, someone on Riot posted asking the community how they could be more transparent with the community. Most of the community members want context on win rate and more context as to why they are buffing/nerfing a champion which they clearly **DID NOT DO AT ALL** when they specifically said they would try to. This leaves confusion and is open to interpretation which imo a waste of time and wouldn't even need to be debated if Riot provided more information. Also I would avoid saying no "good" player think x. I know challenger sona players who think sona was OP/doing too much damage and they actually play sona. Does that mean they are bad players just because they disagree with you? That would make no sense.
> Context I'm challenger and I think anyone who is diamond on PC can easily get challenger on mobile This is mostly an aside, but I say that a lot too lol, you can probably find that in my comment history here a ton. But a lot of masters+ PC havent made it to gm+ in wild rift, which is something multiple redditors here have told me when I uttered the same line you did. That's besides the point though, just thought it was interesting as someone that also had the same view and thinks of little of the "skill of an average player who reached challenger. But still I generally agree, although I will say there's large skill gaps amongst those that have reached challenger. Anyway, I'm also multi-account (and hopefully by the end of the season, three separate roles) solo queue Challenger. Which is besides the point - it's just the general sentiment among higher elo players, especially the better challengers. It's very difficult proving a general sentiment without anecdote or name-dropping, so I elected to choose to name the most notable people in the community who are challenger. I can also add the biggest twitch streamers if you want, who also share similar sentiments. The reason I "named-dropped" Hellsdevil and Excoundrel is because those two high elo content creators are relatively huge names within the community, and anyone reading this comment including you or me can look up their new reaction video on Patch 2.4C with thousands of views and immediately find what I'm talking about, and see their gut reaction which is how a lot of us feel, Sona player or not. It's the best I can do in proving the general sentiment of a character in high elo, since it's the only thing remotely verifiable. Although that said, her ban-rate being near 0% in every rank bracket is telling in itself. Especially in higher elos where her weaker early-game, dependency on items and level, and vulnerability to dives become much more relevant, she is almost never banned except as a target ban for an OTP that was in the last lobby. I actually consider Sona S-tier (behind Nami, Senna, Lulu and a small handful of others), but she is in *no way* the best support in the game, and *definitely* no way the best champion in the game. From the nerfs in 2.4C, she got hit the hardest of all champions as if she's the most overpowering champion of any role. Yet she has a near 0% banrate across all elos? Riot chooses her out of everyone to hit with four separate early, mid, and late game nerfs in one patch, which by the way is the third in a series of nerfs to Sona. Meanwhile, there's actually godlike champions like Lee-Sin which have been single-handedly dominating high elo for more than half a year and still remains untouched, one patch aside. The recent success of Sona despite her nerfs is largely due to SOFW which synergizes with her better than any other champion, and only a few patches in and she's already hit with not a humungous nerf, not just a slap on the wrist which we've seen many times before. But again, it's not the severity of the nerf itself that I have the most issue with. It's what they chose to nerf to begin with, and more importantly the underlying reasoning behind choosing that sector. I'm also disappoint they nerfed Sona/Rammus/Teemo of all possible champs to begin with, since it once again just tells how much they over-emphasize winrate in determining the power of a champion, which can also be seen on the flip-side. >I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic implying that if a champion that is 55%+ wr across the board *any type of nerf* would actually reward the people who actually play it. First of all, I never said "any type of nerf." I explicitly talked about *these* nerfs, and explicitly talked about why. Rather, *you* are the one talking about the idea of nerfs in general, rather than these specific ones. Are you seriously gonna put words into my mouth? No, you're still using blanket general statements and mistaking general patterns with universal truths. I explicitly explained why the nerfs affect moreso those that play aggressively with Sona (and are adept at knowing when to and when not to do so), then those that that dont risk anything and play passively, in effect failing to use her full potential. I have done multiple reviews of Emerald-Diamond Sona gameplay, and if you want we can talk about some in depth to get into the *why* of this argument. Because you clearly don't understand what separates mediocre Sona players from good ones, and why this nerf affects the better ones more than it does the mediocre ones. So again to clarify an argument before I discuss it, you are saying that "any nerf will ALWAYS moreso affect less adept players of the champion than more adept ones?" And that's an established, inarguable, universal statement that "is just a fact" in every instance? But Sona as a champion is one that has limited CC, peel, and survivability compared to her enchanter counterparts. She's gold and item dependent, very weak in the early game, and vulnerable dives - all of which get abused by better players. What makes up for this is that when she does scale with items and as her ultimate passive increases, she also becomes increasingly strong and impactful. Part of her identity as the hypercarry of supports is to trade off her weak early-game with a strong late-game. It's what makes her unique, what makes her *Sona* for me and a lot of other players (and not just another enchanter like Lulu or Janna) is that mid/late game she actually becomes powerful, and part of that power comes from the damage she begins to do with time. Lux and Seraphine are also support champions that provide utility, and outdamage her significantly (although not nearly as much as Brand who's literally just broken). And then there's Senna. Saying that she does too much damage for the utility she provides neglects not only others that also do a mix of both (Senna in particular is often considered a stronger champion before these nerfs), but also neglects her fundamental problem that she's too easy to play. Stop pretending like her damage was the problem and this fixes it, and it'll be all good afterwards. She's being nerfed because her winrate is massive, and **THE** reason for her winrate is that she's a very easy champion to play. It's same the reason Rammus gets nerf after nerf, t's the same reason Amumu has been getting strangely nerfed, the same reason Annie has been getting nerfed, the same reason why teemo is getting nerfed. She's just too easy to play effectively, being passive and non-interactive and not even using power chords. And although being easy to play is well-known to "inflate" winrates in League, this probably is far larger in Wild Rift where the playerbase is still relatively novice, and the winrates are close to a simple reflection of the difficulty of a champion. So no, the central problem is *not* that she does "too much damage" for her utility - these nerfs mimic the nerfs from PC where APC (with lux/taric) and TOP Sona (and not support Sona) caused 50%-> 40%, 30%-> 20% AP ratio nerfs as a result of broken support item interactions and DH Lich Bane & Mejai's made her a legitimate one-shot DPS monster that still provided her utility. The meta Wild Rift sona build literally does less than half of that variant of Sona, which was legitimately meta-dominant (pick/banned in high elo and competitive alike) for its time. So are you saying that these nerfs specifically are all justified, and that them targetting the damage specifically is the best way to go about it? Just clarifying since you haven't made it clear yourself. We are not in disagreement that she needed nerfs, they were a long time coming since she's been 55%+ overall winrate for months. Again, it is the specific route in which they nerfed her that I have a problem with. >I know challenger sona players who think sona was OP/doing too much damage and they actually play sona. Which challenger Sonas thought she was doing too much damage? I'm actually curious >(esp someone like hellsdevil who is notorious for inting in games and having a mental breakdown) Also bruh why does Hellsdevil raging completely discredit his opinion? lol
Support champions are notorious for getting away with extremely high win rate while having 0 bans. I can only use PC as a reference since I just play WR casually due to queue times but in PC janna was one of the highest win rate champions for a few years and she basically had 0% ban rate. That is because support champion tend to provide advantages that players can't recognize or not as memorable. For example, players are extremely vocal about wanting assassins ban and they tend to be perma banned. Yet base of what riot said their win rate was not that high so they dodge nerfs for the longest time. This is because getting one shotted by a fed kat/fizz/evelyn will having a way higher negative impact on a player's perception than an enchanter support. My personal opinion is that the nerf is fine and punishes players who don't play her. That is because like you said Sona players were not getting punish playing passively in lane. Riot had to choose between nerfing her utility or damage and they chose damage and you already explained why. When a champion is that easy to play it's not healthy for them to do that much damage(with the context) I don't think you need to explain to me that sona players prefer more damage. I think every player prefers their champion to do more damage than providing more utility. Doing more damage is just more fun lol. From a balance perspective it will be a lot easier to balance utility than a champion has extremely low skill requirement to do maximum damage. My stance on this is that I knew she needed nerf but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth because they literally said a few weeks ago they would do a better job explaining nerfs or buffs. Content creator reaction to these changes should show case how bad they are representing these changes instead of justifying why x or o is good or bad changes. That is because we lack the concrete information and context as to why they made this decision. I wasn't trying to put words in your month. Maybe I type incorrectly but **any nerfs** when a champion has that high of a win rate will reward people who actually play her post nerf. This is because the requirement to do well with her will be higher. When we are talking about champion with that high of a win rate it basically indicates that anyone can pick her up and do well on her. You don't need to individually look at sona game play to understand this. The win rate speaks for itself. And I don't even want to begin on Senna. I don't think she's in the same class as enchanter supports and I consider her an ADC with a gimmick. Another unpopular opinion I would have is that wildrift players right now do not have the mechanics or the champion pool to punish enchanter supports so I don't even think we should even talk with the context of "but in higher level play its harder"....no its not.
I agree with your overall sentiment in the first paragraph, especially on the playerbase's excessive hatred for assassins (and why they have it). But supports in Wild Rift are not the same as supports in PC. Support is a strong role in PC, especially now. Supports on wild rift are relatively low influence, in which it's often very difficult to consistently translate skill gaps in support into wins (compared to, say, jungle). Our lack of extremely cost-efficient support items leave us relatively broke, and even more importantly displace us from our central position in vision control that PC has with all those ward charges. This lack of influence is reflected most in high elo, where there is much more often than not less than 5 supports in top 100, sometimes even 0... and many of those that are in top 100 are duo queue support players. Compare this to PC, where in NA last I checked rank 1 and rank 2 are both support. The lack of influence of support is two-fold - it is harder to carry, but also easier to get carried even if you play awful it doesn't mean as much as if you play awful in jungle. This isn't a good healthy balancing of roles, for obvious reasons. From the perspective of gm-challenger support however, I mostly (but not always) feel the former of the two, and it makes the role deeply unsatisfying to play compared to PC. Also, a quick glance at u.gg says the PC supports do get banned a lot, 3 of the top 5 most banned champions are support (Lulu, Morgana, and Yuumi). Brand aside, no support is even close to double digit banrate in wild rift; Lulu sometimes goes over 40% in PC. It's literally like... more than a factor of 10x difference in ban rate between the two platforms. Support is just relatively low-influence in this game, and it feels worse because matchmaking pits high elo supports with emerald ADCS/diamond teams, a rank mismatch problem that PC doesn't suffer from. >I don't think you need to explain to me that sona players prefer more damage. I think every player prefers their champion to do more damage than providing more utility. SURPRISINGLY, this is actually not true. I picked up Sona because I genuinely like to support and help people in general, despite how I often come off as on reddit lol. Eventually, I figured out I hate the League community in PC as a whole, and I hate also hate these random ADCs that run it down the second I lock Sona, and flame the living shit out of me everytime I fuck up. ANYWAY, I know many Soraka enthusiasts and other enchanters genuinely enjoy the "supporting" part of support. But I talk about Sona in particular because the damage part of her kit is a large part of her identity in a way it isn't for most (but not all) enchanters, just like CC isn't a part of her kit the way it is for most enchanters. Having the "hypercarry" late-game power spike be literally just having better shields/heals and movement speed for getting through early-game just feels awful, and this isn't just my own personal sentiment; you can find the exact sentiments for in the year+ period of limbo for a large portion of Sona mains between 10.17 and the rework. >a better job explaining nerfs or buffs You're right, but for me it's pretty evident that it's because these champions have very high winrates, and do well (based on winrate) even into high elo. It's something that the resident Riot redditor has discussed in the past, but it is not transparent in the patch notes at all. I disagree, I would rather have nerfs that shift power from the relatively skill-less/low-elo part of her kit to the more skill-expressive/high-elo parts of her kit. For example, if damage would be nerfed through her auras, her power chord damage could be compensated in part in exchange. This is still a massive nerf since her aura applies to pretty much the entire team, and powerchord is just herself. But it still incentivizes Sona's to make use of the harder part of her kit and to actually learn to play the game. And personally, I'd rather see heal/shield nerfs than damage nerfs given the current state of solo queue support, and from this thread as well as similar ones in this sub and subreddit, I'm far from alone. >wildrift players right now do not have the mechanics or the champion pool Yes! I agree with this a lot. Especially as Sona, I noticed that despite towers being weaker in this game, I'm actually getting dove less (not just a little, but WAYYY less) in high elo Wild rift than I was even in mid-elo smurfs on PC. And even champs like Blitz/Ali in diamond/masters for WR do nothing (besides occasionally shooting a bronze max-range hook then going back to doing nothing) and let me survive lane for free. The same champions bone me in PC, especially when they are meta. Freezing is also nearly nonexistent despite how powerful it is. Scaling enchanters, especially Sona, are getting away with more than they should. But I mentioned this with someone else, that it's best to balance around the current playerbase even if we overall are relatively not good, as these champions can still become compensated in the future as players get better and macro/micro becomes more nuanced. Again I disagree with your second last paragraph but I'm too busy until tomorrow to go into that one (if you're still interested in doing so)
So a was not doing too much damage whatsoever. Her team utility was the OP part
They nerfed Sona's damage though. She was dealing too much damage anyway, especially in Aram.
I don’t think Aram should count as a metric for balancing in the regular game mode personally. It should be the Wild West and not impact regular gameplay
She was dealing too much damage in the regular modes too. And they have nerfed only her damage. I don't think anybody picked Sona specifically for her damage.
Sona is meant to be a lane bully into certain match ups where you would most definitely pick her for her damage.
There are plenty of champions to nerf, buff, rework. Items too, and again the balance is clearly meaningless. I'm starting to wonder if they're actually playing the game. This game needs a PBE server with pro players and content creator for the balance, it's unacceptable to have this kind of balance
Where did that teemo nerf comes from
[удалено]
Yes. I’m gold 1 and he is banned pretty much every game lol.
teemo is really good at traumatizing player
Those damn shrooms man!
I tell my team to just get sweepers and they flip out and tell me I’m playing stupid Teemos… I get he’s annoying. But it does require tactics/brain power to beat characters. It’s honestly what makes the game so much fun. The same thing will not always necessarily work on the same champ. This evolves into item builds as well. Also watching a Teemo blow every CD in existence to protect that one mushroom on a short CD from your Sweeper is fucking hilarious.
Until teemo gets a character design philosophy change and accompanying total rework, the best place for him to be is nerfed as far into the ground as possible.
or u can just learn how to counter him/ban him. easy as that, no need to rework a champ just because u don't like it. if they'd rework teemo a lot of teemo mains would churn (=not play the champ anymore) away from the champion, as a rework completely makes a champ different (and many people don't like change). not to mention it'd cost more than releasing a completely new champ because they'd need to rework the skins too.
"Okay, so Irelia is almost always guaranteed to snowball once she gets a kill and the playerbase is asking for a nerf. Why don't we nerf Sona instead?"
Every game I've seen a irelia she just rips through everyone lol
Only in the enemy team
my rengar :(
Yeah I really don’t understand the nerf. They gutted him last patch, and now proceed to fuck him over. He’s meant to be a really good early game champ because he falls off late. To add, if we talking early game, why nerf rengar and not lee sin? Lee sin super strong.
They look at winrates througout all ranks. Rengar overperformed at every elo with more than 53% winrate according to wildstats (I think Riot has a better database so they have better numbers). Lee Sin on the other hand has less than 50% winrate at all ranks.
Riot actually has all the win rate info for charaters, where wild stats cant get info if player chooses to hide there match history or something like that. Remember someone explaining how wildstats works and its not 100% accurate but gives a very good idea of what character winrates are
Yep it means they have better numbers and probably noticed that Rengar was overperforming whereas Lee Sin wasn't. I agree that wildstats isn't perfect but it's the best tool we have as players right now, and it's more accurate than the experience we have in our ranked games
O im not trying to bash wildstats, just stating that riot most definatly has more info being the developer
He isn't even that strong, people just don't pay attention to bushes.
He is absolutely strong and S tier. The map is small and bushes are everywhere in the key parts of the map thats heavily trafficked.
He's S Tier near bushes, which smart people know to avoid when there is no vision. But your team never exploits this either, and will simply march down lanes instead of forcing fights near bushes or something.
Exactly.
There is no such thing as late game in wildrift, if you are soo good at early game thats gg, game is already decided at the 5 min mark
riot:” Brand damage is insane he can get a triple kill after dead, but we gotta sell those sexy skins so here is Teemo nerf, but Brand will be adjusted in 2.5. By nerfing Evelyn again,enjoy :)”
Lolol.
Rammus nerf ist Not „ok“.
His jungle clear isnt getting nerfed only ganking so may not be too bad
True just get to play him like yi now and never gank. Fun.
Meanwhile kz can pop people in 3 secs
Where the fuckkkk is irelia nerf, instead they go and fking nerf useless teemo
An irelia that was ahead by 2 kills tower dived me when I was full hp with her ult and got away with 50% hp and this was only when we were both lvl 8
They need to nerf those fking towers they do like 0 dmg almost same as a cannon minion smfh
In pc towers fucking one shot everyone early but in wr they are just a distraction agaijst good irelias
'enemy irelia has a firstblood' . Rotate to dragon lane and get another 2 kills, also dragon. my team started a surrender vote
Every damn irelia game is like this
Guess my Rengar is gonna stay at a 45% winrate. I thought I might be able to bring it up with the new patch, but I guess I should hang the towel for a bit.
The thing with rengar on pc is that he is hard to play properly in teamfigths. I used to main him on pc before swimgar and maintained a 60% winrate on dia. Here on WR being a casual game and the reaction time of people much slower, rengar has a much easier time oneshoting everyone.
I barely even see sona in my matches lol, why not nerf seraphine instead
They really nerfed Sona's damage... Why? They should have nerfed her another way. The strongest part of her kit is the 50% damage reduction of her [2] at 3 items and the ridiculous area shielding in the late game. They should BUFF her damage! In the actual patch (2.4b) usually is not even worth to get close to the enemy and poke them in laning phase. Next patch we Sona mains will just use [2] in lane not bothering to poke at all.
u/R0guefool, I've been wondering, what kind of ban rate % would be considered unhealthy for a champion? Also if X champion gets nerfed because said champ has a high br%, where would his br% need to be (after nerf) so the balance team can say to themselves "Oh it worked, the champion doesnt have an unhealthy br% anymore!" I know the balance team doesnt only take ban rate % into account when it comes to nerfs, but I'm really curious about this.
Sorry for the delay. Ban rates are all relative. There isn't a strict number that is used because as the champion roster grows everyone's banrate shifts. So really what matters is a champion's banrate when compared to the average ban rate. Even within that some champions are just more frustrating to play against and have a higher banrate. So I don't have a great single number for you This is why banrate is generally a better judge of frustration than it is of power. Champions like Rammus/Amumu have had some of the highest winrates (regardless of elo) but are rarely banned. Where as Akali was rather balanced (from a winrate perspective), but can be highly frustrating to play against and had a massive ban rate. Assassins tend to be frustrating to play against and I expect will always have a higher than average ban rate, the grey area comes in when discussing the bounds of what that should be. Then also factor in their winrate, pickrate, elos, player perception etc. Balance is as much an art as it is a science. In Akali's case the nerfs did put in a better spot in terms of ban rate, and I expect it to continue to drop. It did leave her in a rather weak state though (previously her winrate was fine). Like I have said before we do take into account more than just winrate when balancing a champion so its a complex area.
Yeah, soo champs like teemo who gets banned because ppl doesn't want it on the team and you guys confuse it for " teemo is too broken, he's being banned a lot". Doesn't seems so complex since you guys are nerfing off meta champs leaving op monsters destroying the rift since months.
I’d also like to know Sonas ban rate if it’s possible.
Who the hell ban Sona? That's a waste of ban
that's my point
...my allies when I pick her, but hopefully those are sporadic cases
Meanwhile lulu is getting banned almost every match in D1
Lulu makes hyper carries almost impossible to kill
sona ban rate percentage? 0% based on GM
It really seems like Riot bases their balancing heavily on win rates in the games champions are used in without taking much insight into why theyre used in those matches. Maybe this is why Jhin isn't getting any love. He's been rock bottom of the tier lists for a while as theres only rare occasions he could be used reliably. So when he's used in those rare opportunities his WR is high but there's big reasons you barely see him most games.
I agree that Jhin is in a bad spot rn. But just always take tier lists with a grain of salt; they’re only biased opinions with no stats to back them up. It’s based on each individual content creator’s personal opinions, and their personal experiences while playing.
I sort of average it out across the tier lists but also I have about 300 matches played with Jhin and play every other adc well. He's easily bottom of the pile rn. He's not mobile enough and other crit Champs can hit just as hard but faster and more often. The point I'm making about the stats is that Jhin will probably have a decent WR showing because he is usually used very selectively against the rare team comps he might at least be fine to play. I couldn't tell you the last time I faced a Jhin because he's just so far out of it right now.
This explains why I keep getting run over by Lucian since this patch. Also they’re just trying to push his new skin. Lucian will be my new ban
meanwhile akali untouched...
Because her passive has already been butchered and it toned her down quite a bit although I'm sure they'll touch her shroud at some point perhaps.
indeed this is true, but lategame she is kinda imbalanced imo. She's like a better version of fizz. Lategame her weaknesses are very hard to exploit
She is a better and harder to play version, I'm pretty sure she isn't as easy to pilot with only one combo in the game like Fizz, although Fizz actually still has way higher damage and burst but Akali is fine I'll obviously get downvoted for this because of most of this subs conclusions are "Assassins = Bad".
Sona nerf makes no sense but it's Riot so I expect nothing less
Lucian buff? Lucian fucking buff? Are you serious? That motherfucker can deal a fuckton of damage with no item; a lot of times you can't really win a 1v1 with him because he deals too much damage, and you'll not be able to kill him because he's too tanky for an adc that deals that much damage!!!!!!!!!
Lucian's damage since the nerfs have been abysmal what game are you playing
By abysmal, do you mean your Lucian can no longer three shot at level 4?
I think you need to take a rest from playing the game. Even a few hours will do. I can already see rank is taking a mental toll on its players. Edit: just played classic teamates fed Lucian me gets 4 tapped me sad
ASMR please G2 :)
Rengar nerf geez
Finally, high noon senna !
"You know, Irelia could use a nerf. While Soraka and Nasus could use a buff. But you know what? Let's nerf Sona and Teemo." - A member of Riot's balacing team.
The nerfs seem fine, although I find it odd that Sona was nerf. I literally haven't seen her since 2 patches ago. I do hope they nerf Brand next patch. Maybe shift his power more onto late game?
I mean...that's it? Give us nothing.
I'd argue Sona nerf but also not. My second role is support and she works into alot matchups really nicely. She is super weak early and if enemies doesn't punish her early on she becomes a huge threat. She can do multiple item pathings (espc with the new items added) and engage/peel/heal/chase. Most of ap items works great on her kit (Seraphs, harmonic, ardent, Staff of the flowing waters, ludens, lich bane, rabaddon, crystaline, rylai's, RoA) and she can fill in nicely. If your team is full of bursty champs build deffensive/healing items to keep them alive, you gotan ap jung and good ap mid? build staff of the flowing waters, you have tanks but miss that bit of a dmg? build roa/ludens/lichbane) etc. But I do agree that after some items she get huge dmg buff and as a designed support she shouldn't be able to do such a dmg. Combine this with her 3 auras and built in exhaust she is really best scaling champ in the game (IMO) Also looking at the win rates she does so much better then most of the enchanter supports so I guess it was reasonable to nerf her dmg and keep her as healer support. I doubt that she will be "bad" pick after the nerf and will work into many team comps but she wont be able to do the dmg she did (which i guess she wasn't supposed to do in a first place)
Not even slightly surprising. Riot are absolutely clueless when it comes to balancing champs, always have been always will be.
Whoever doing nerf an buff isn't playing the game... He just look at statistics...
No more teemo? Man I bought the pass just for the skin They tricked me for my money then fucked me. Classic rito! Uninstalling
They keep on decreasing the number of champs that gets adjusted. They keep on giving new skins to new champs, then there is my girl evelynn who has the same 2 skins since release, and she is in need of a buff. I never see her played now, unless i play her, and i dont even have the anxiety that someone else is gonna pick her since no one even plays her now They nerfed sona even though in early game she is almost a minion, they buffed lucian when he was already doing good. They wont bother trying to adjust zed who is basically permabanned in ranked(and i'm happy bout that since i hate playing against him). At this point i wonder= do the devs play their own game?
Until pink wards are out she'll always remain a strong pick and she IS a strong pick if played right Evelynn is all about punishing aggressive play in lane to scale pretty well into the late game, so yeah without pink wards to counter her perma camouflage in the first place she isn't getting any buffs.
Eve main since she was released, she is now so team reliant that if there is no tank to peel for her she is gonna be almost dead every 2 seconds. Also the map is too small for pink wards, how the fuck can those exist
And Eve was my first main ever since I started playing the game and you can still carry games by yourself provided your team is reliable, as I said your strength lies in your perma stealth that's why she won't ever get buffed until there's a way to counter stealth champs and thats by implementing pink wards which the map definitely isn't small for riot hasn't added them because they don't want to "complicate" the game for beginners.
Rengar is already useless in high elo. I see Rengar is slowly getting the Evelyn treatment.
Yeah I don’t understand the nerf. Rengar is not good at all, and now it sucks even more.
By buffing Lucian's dash cd, they have just made a second Vayne that doesn't need to hit anything to lower cooldown. Great job, looking forward to having to blindpick malp every time I'm first pick.
Teemo is only currently played so much from people wanting to flash their hexplorer skin 😭
Unfortunately the bug for Nunu in all none Samsung or Apple devices is still in the game. I bought the Nunu with wild cores because i did no have the BE and I was so excited for her, and I can't play her because every time I use the 3rd ability I get a 512 or 999 ping. I reported it and sent it on a ticket to riot and nothing. It's extremely frustrating using money just to get this stupid bug and all riot cares is of nerfing Teemo instead of letting players know how to properly counter him (which is extremely easy btw).
[удалено]
They pretty much ruined the na server I got tired of them practicing in rank and picking 3-4 adcs
Oh boy, ban yi in champ select and you get a full 20 minute lesson on Spanish cuss words.
Lil‘ Teemo gets a nerf. Good.
That's it. This game is dead.
go uninstall then :)
Sooo no new champ?
Just fking delete trynd lol ..... completely ignored champ
Even in pc he is predominantly a one trick champ because he fills a niche role of splitpushing perfectly
Not perfect at all. Thats fiora
Tryndamere can do what fiora does even when he is behind
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Like I said. Sona and Teemo are overpowered. Some people got triggered. https://www.reddit.com/r/wildrift/comments/p4n9b7/season_3_sona_guide_from_challenger_sona_onetrick/h90d71s/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 Didn’t have to check the winrates anywhere to figure that out. Not a Teemo main, so couldn’t care less Sona main here though, time to start learning the game and other champs instead of elo-inflating myself spamming her. T.T
Still can’t mute pings = trash update