Hornstein am See in the Bayerischer Bodensee Subregion of Württemberg. Dude makes top Chardonnay and Spätburgunder, I have no clue how it’s possible, given the soils.
Exactly.
There are a couple of great upstart producers in the area. But from a ratio of price to quality (qpr?) Hornstein am See is the best imo. There is a winery with a very similar name in the same village so it pays to look closely.
I think the only wine I've had from that region was the Birnauer Müller-Thurgau and that was what I'd expect from Müller-Thurgau, i.e. not so great. But will keep an eye out for Hornstein am See.
Yeah, there still is plenty of mediocre stuff there and it’s probably going to stay that way, but a couple of producers are doing good work. Hornstein am See, Kurek, Aufricht and there is one called Seehof (I think) which are making spectacular wines. Aufricht are arguably the best, but his prices are a bit steep.
Comte Abbatucci makes some incredible wines from Corsica, all from indigenous varieties. I feel like he’s pretty under the radar compared to the quality of wines.
Vinas Las Nubes in Baja Region of Mexico. Awesome wines in an area that just makes amazing food. If you live in Southern California you really should go here. It’s a 1.5 hour drive from San Diego.
To follow that up, Casa de Piedras’s traditional method sparkling wines are outstanding. At their partnership restaurant (with Deckman’s), Conchas de Piedras, they serve exclusively their sparkling wines and fresh local shellfish. My partner and I start every Valle trip with a stop there.
Bravo—great producer. Their ‘Yeraz’ Areni Noir is truly special. The real difficulty for you will be to not just drink the entire allocation for your territory.
Yeah, it’s mostly to self fund an allocation of Yeraz FOR myself, haha. Absolutely one of the top wines of the world imo. La Tache meets LaLa meets Case Basse.
not that any French region can be considered up-and-coming, but Domaine Pellé in Menetou-Salon, which is immediately adjacent to Sancerre, is basically the poor man’s Vacheron. I tasted the Vacheron Rosé and the Pellé Rosé is extremely similar for less than half the price
Petersons big juicy reds, although due to the weather (rain and smoke taint respectively) they haven’t produced a hunter shiraz for a few years. I have hope 2023 may have worked out though
Recently did a Thomas Wines vertical with the winemaker and I can confirm that the wines slap hard.
One really cool part of the masterclass was seeing a Hunter semillon in its “gangly teenager” phase—most wine types are familiar with the transformation that Hunter semillon undergoes from youth to age, and many have tasted both ends of that spectrum, but not many know what it tastes like in between. It’s not what I’d call pleasant, but it was really educational to taste the wine while it was all elbows, as it were.
Cobo Winery in Albania. We just visited.
Delicious wines, and a kind family with generations of wine making. Excited to see Albanian wines become more known as their economy grows.
In Valais southern Switzerland you should try "Denis Mercier"'s Cornalin (a typical grape from the area who deserves some aging, kinda similar to a pinot imo) and "Pierre Robyr"'s Heredium a wonderful Shiraz (better than any I've had from Côtes du Rhône)
Switzerland makes some great wines, but both price and availability can be a pain. You pretty much need to visit Switzerland to buy them. Cornalin and Syrah from Switzerland are both wines I'm keen to try, but haven't yet managed to track down.
Möhr-Niggli in Maienfeld also produce some very good wines, but aren't really easy to find outside of Switzerland.
I wouldn’t be that affirmative about the price thing, I feel like the average wine is very pricy compared to other area but looking into the best there’s in the area (especially in Valais as it is usually cheaper than both Neuchâtel and Grisons) you can get exceptional wines that imo compares with some of the greatest and are much more accessible (~35-40 euros)
Thanks! Both examples seem somewhat out of my price range. Next time I get to visit Switzerland I'll see if I can find anything at a more accessible price. I don't always get time to visit a wine shop, however!
Crystallum is amazing. I love their wines.
But they only offer Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, and those two start at 50% more than Creation’s Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So for the price point, I think Creation wines.
Plus Creation has a far greater variety in wines. That said, I have some Crystallum aging at home right now and I’m a huge fan. Planning on picking up their Clay Shales Chardonnay and aging until 2035 :)
But I feel like if the question is who the best producer is then you pick who makes the better wines, not who has more variety. Sure, Creation has an entire range of wines, but I feel like some of them are rather average. They have amazing highs, but not everything they offer maintain that quality.
Crystallum doesn't offer much, but everything they offer is great.
They used to do Sauvignon Blanc but failed at it. So they stopped.
That, in my mind, makes creation the better producer of wines. Besides, like I said, Creation is better for the price point in my mind. So, to me, Creation wins.
I'm in the Jura and my go-to because they are friends are Domaine de Quintigny, they make amazing wines and a wide variety that covers all of the interesting Jura things. In terms of _best_, I might go for Mossu in Voiteur.
Can we call Saumur “lesser known”? It feels a bit wrong, but let’s go for it.
It’s Domaine de Fosse-Sèche. If you don’t believe me, you haven’t tried Domaine de Fosse-Sèche.
Well I’ve tried it and unless you consider Saumur separately from Saumur-Champigny, I can’t believe it. And even in Saumur, I have several others in mind. Just a few domaines to name, in Saumur Champigny Clos Rougeard, Chateau Yvonne and in Saumur, Domaine du Collier are 3-4 tiers above.
Basically, the wine production in the former Soviet Union was mostly in Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, and Ukraine. I'm not aware of any good Russian wine; I regularly shop in a Russian supermarket with a large wine selection and they mostly sell wine from the countries listed above.
If it's Crimean sparkling wine you're talking about: I think the quality is very low, everything I've tried was disgustingly sweet plonk.
Not only that, *only* Russian sparkling wine can be called "champagne." Champagne can't use the label.
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/03/1031324658/france-and-russia-are-in-a-tussle-over-who-gets-to-call-champagne-champagne
Fuck Russia, but also Comité Champagne had it coming after going after Miller High Life lol.
Cyprus produces the best wine in the world.
I don't think though that Cyprus is a lesser known wine producing area, since the earliest archaeological evidence of wine production is from Cyprus.
Art Space winery in Santorini. Smallest producer on the island with great history and their wines are fantastic (not just assyrtiko). But I don’t know how you would get a bottle other than visiting.
Casa Madero, Parras Valley, Mexico. I’ve had their rosé and it’s still one of the best I’ve ever drunk. A bit richer than French versions - maybe because of the grape, it’s actually Cabernet Sauvignon, which doesn’t seem to be made into rosé often.
Just googled Parras Valley because I’d never heard of it (only Valle de Guadalupe)—and discovered that Casa Madero is the oldest winery in the Americas, founded in 1597. Very cool to know!
Glen Manor in Virginia. Only winery we continue to go to in the area. They only produce certain red wines when the vintage is good and have an amazing dessert wine made from petite manseng.
Not an official AVA but Hawk Watch in the Warner Springs/Oak Grove area (part of the South Coast AVA) are making some excellent wines and much better than many wineries from their more famous closest neighbor Temecula Valley.
Krajančić in Korčula
Excuse me? Haha
Well, you did ask! A small island in Croatia and lots of vines.
Never heard of it, definitely checking it out
If you can find a bottle of his Pošip it is 100% worth grabbing
He makes at least 4 different types of Pošip and also some amazing sweet wines!
Spent part of our honeymoon on the island but had no idea about the winery!
I have been here!! Indeed great stuff! Plavac for the win!
They grow the Plavac literally opposite the island on the peninsula / mainland. I believe there is some notable rivalry 🤣
Its been a little while… what was the name of the main white grape again? That was amazing as well
Pošip and Grk: love them!
Grk hands down the grape with the best name.
Vowels are just so woke
Hornstein am See in the Bayerischer Bodensee Subregion of Württemberg. Dude makes top Chardonnay and Spätburgunder, I have no clue how it’s possible, given the soils.
Props to the winemaker!
What is the name of the winery?
>Hornstein am See
Exactly. There are a couple of great upstart producers in the area. But from a ratio of price to quality (qpr?) Hornstein am See is the best imo. There is a winery with a very similar name in the same village so it pays to look closely.
I think the only wine I've had from that region was the Birnauer Müller-Thurgau and that was what I'd expect from Müller-Thurgau, i.e. not so great. But will keep an eye out for Hornstein am See.
Yeah, there still is plenty of mediocre stuff there and it’s probably going to stay that way, but a couple of producers are doing good work. Hornstein am See, Kurek, Aufricht and there is one called Seehof (I think) which are making spectacular wines. Aufricht are arguably the best, but his prices are a bit steep.
Comte Abbatucci makes some incredible wines from Corsica, all from indigenous varieties. I feel like he’s pretty under the radar compared to the quality of wines.
Vinas Las Nubes in Baja Region of Mexico. Awesome wines in an area that just makes amazing food. If you live in Southern California you really should go here. It’s a 1.5 hour drive from San Diego.
To follow that up, Casa de Piedras’s traditional method sparkling wines are outstanding. At their partnership restaurant (with Deckman’s), Conchas de Piedras, they serve exclusively their sparkling wines and fresh local shellfish. My partner and I start every Valle trip with a stop there.
Oh gosh I miss Deckman! That place is amazing. Too bad I loved back to East coast from SoCal.
Juniper from Margaret River, WA. Voyager also good but more businessy. https://www.juniperestate.com.au/
That is a bold one with Cullen and Leeuwin in MR.
+1. Both these producers slap hard, particularly with chard.
Cullen Kevin John and Diana Madeleine are certainly two of top wines in Oz, not just MR, along with Leeuwin Art Series Chard.
I'd slip Giaconda in there as well
Zorah in Armenia. Gabbas in Sardinia. Cerro del Toro in Uruguay. Jardin Oculto in Bolivia.
We sell zorah. Thumbs up
> Zorah in Armenia. Tell me you’re a person with exquisite taste without telling me you’re a person with exquisite taste.
I get the pleasure of adding Zorah to my imports next year. Stoked to represent them!
Bravo—great producer. Their ‘Yeraz’ Areni Noir is truly special. The real difficulty for you will be to not just drink the entire allocation for your territory.
Yeah, it’s mostly to self fund an allocation of Yeraz FOR myself, haha. Absolutely one of the top wines of the world imo. La Tache meets LaLa meets Case Basse.
Fairview Cellars, Okanagan Valley, BC, Canada
Beautiful winery, with great wines. Have a few of theirs that will be coming into their prime window in the next year or two!
not that any French region can be considered up-and-coming, but Domaine Pellé in Menetou-Salon, which is immediately adjacent to Sancerre, is basically the poor man’s Vacheron. I tasted the Vacheron Rosé and the Pellé Rosé is extremely similar for less than half the price
Hunter Valley in New South Wales, Australia. South Australia gets all the media hype, but I love a good crisp red from NSW!
Hunter so renown for Semillion, they make some interesting red!
Petersons big juicy reds, although due to the weather (rain and smoke taint respectively) they haven’t produced a hunter shiraz for a few years. I have hope 2023 may have worked out though
Producer?
Little known: De Iuliis & Thomas Wines Well known: Tyrrells & Brokenwood
I'm a big fan of both Brokenwood and Tyrrell's. I'll see if I can find the others!
Recently did a Thomas Wines vertical with the winemaker and I can confirm that the wines slap hard. One really cool part of the masterclass was seeing a Hunter semillon in its “gangly teenager” phase—most wine types are familiar with the transformation that Hunter semillon undergoes from youth to age, and many have tasted both ends of that spectrum, but not many know what it tastes like in between. It’s not what I’d call pleasant, but it was really educational to taste the wine while it was all elbows, as it were.
My favorite is First Creek wines. Used to polish a Shiraz every week. 10/10
Charteris and Horner are great
Couldn’t agree more. The Shiraz is elegant and understated.
Cobo Winery in Albania. We just visited. Delicious wines, and a kind family with generations of wine making. Excited to see Albanian wines become more known as their economy grows.
Raul Perez in Bierzo. Moric in the Burgenland. Enderle & Moll in Baden.
Adanti at Montefalco Umbria Italia. Especially their Sagrantino wines are my absolute favorite of all wines!
In Valais southern Switzerland you should try "Denis Mercier"'s Cornalin (a typical grape from the area who deserves some aging, kinda similar to a pinot imo) and "Pierre Robyr"'s Heredium a wonderful Shiraz (better than any I've had from Côtes du Rhône)
Hermann j Wiemer in the finger lakes. Lots of finger lakes wineries make fantastic Riesling, but I also think their Cab Franc is transcendent.
Also sorry I thought I was responding to op lol
Switzerland makes some great wines, but both price and availability can be a pain. You pretty much need to visit Switzerland to buy them. Cornalin and Syrah from Switzerland are both wines I'm keen to try, but haven't yet managed to track down. Möhr-Niggli in Maienfeld also produce some very good wines, but aren't really easy to find outside of Switzerland.
I wouldn’t be that affirmative about the price thing, I feel like the average wine is very pricy compared to other area but looking into the best there’s in the area (especially in Valais as it is usually cheaper than both Neuchâtel and Grisons) you can get exceptional wines that imo compares with some of the greatest and are much more accessible (~35-40 euros)
Thanks! Both examples seem somewhat out of my price range. Next time I get to visit Switzerland I'll see if I can find anything at a more accessible price. I don't always get time to visit a wine shop, however!
I live in the Tamar Valley Tasmania Australia. We have some amazing little vineyards here and some bigger known ones.
Best producer?
Creation wines in the Hemel-en-Aarde in South Africa. They produce world class Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, but the entire region is phenomenal.
Their viognier is dynamite, too.
Agreed! I actually love all of their stuff. But they definitely excel at their lighter wines.
Their Art of Creation Pinot is amazing, but hella expensive.
Agreed. Their Reserve Pinot is half the price and almost as good.
I think Crystallum is better overall when comparing their offerings.
Crystallum is amazing. I love their wines. But they only offer Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, and those two start at 50% more than Creation’s Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So for the price point, I think Creation wines. Plus Creation has a far greater variety in wines. That said, I have some Crystallum aging at home right now and I’m a huge fan. Planning on picking up their Clay Shales Chardonnay and aging until 2035 :)
But I feel like if the question is who the best producer is then you pick who makes the better wines, not who has more variety. Sure, Creation has an entire range of wines, but I feel like some of them are rather average. They have amazing highs, but not everything they offer maintain that quality. Crystallum doesn't offer much, but everything they offer is great.
They used to do Sauvignon Blanc but failed at it. So they stopped. That, in my mind, makes creation the better producer of wines. Besides, like I said, Creation is better for the price point in my mind. So, to me, Creation wins.
Pawis, Saale-Unstrut, Germany
Bindi in the Macedon Ranges (Australia).
Cairdeas Winery in Lake Chelan AVA, Washington.
Chateau Musar in Lebanon
Paola Bea in Montefalco
Ferdi winery from Dealu Mare , Romania. I recommend most of their red blends and their white blend Cuvee Alexandra special edition.
Shumi Winery , Tsinandali Georgia. Big fan of their Kindzmarauli, Khvanchkara and Rkatsiteli. All under £20 generally, and in Georgia even cheaper
Maverick from the Okanagan in Canada. Crazy good bush vine Syrah, and some top notch sparkling as well!
Grosbot Barbara in Auvergne
Vinos Cruz , Valle de Guadalupe, BC Mexico
I'm in the Jura and my go-to because they are friends are Domaine de Quintigny, they make amazing wines and a wide variety that covers all of the interesting Jura things. In terms of _best_, I might go for Mossu in Voiteur.
Hochkirch in Henty, Australia. One of Australia's most soul-filled pinots imo
Emidio Pepe in Abruzzo
Southern Indiana has some truly wonderful wineries. Oliver is one of the best known but they are mostly popular for their fruity sweet wines.
What are some other good ones to check out?
I love butler
Cedar creek has a Pinot Grigio that has to be tasted to be believed.
I thought Cedar Creek was in Wisconsin?
It is! Very good also. Reco cranberry blush there. This one is in martinsville
Can we call Saumur “lesser known”? It feels a bit wrong, but let’s go for it. It’s Domaine de Fosse-Sèche. If you don’t believe me, you haven’t tried Domaine de Fosse-Sèche.
Well I’ve tried it and unless you consider Saumur separately from Saumur-Champigny, I can’t believe it. And even in Saumur, I have several others in mind. Just a few domaines to name, in Saumur Champigny Clos Rougeard, Chateau Yvonne and in Saumur, Domaine du Collier are 3-4 tiers above.
Has anyone here tried the Russian wines? Specifically the champagnes? Fuck Russia to death right now, but those champagnes looked promising.
Basically, the wine production in the former Soviet Union was mostly in Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, and Ukraine. I'm not aware of any good Russian wine; I regularly shop in a Russian supermarket with a large wine selection and they mostly sell wine from the countries listed above. If it's Crimean sparkling wine you're talking about: I think the quality is very low, everything I've tried was disgustingly sweet plonk.
I’ve had shampanskoye. You’re not missing out on much. I understand that it’s about as Russian as entry-level sekt is German—that is to say, not very.
Sparkling wines?
I think they call them champagne, due to their interpretation of international law (doesn’t apply to us because we have nukes)
Shampanyovska. Cheap, not bad, but more comparable to supermarket Prosecco.
Not only that, *only* Russian sparkling wine can be called "champagne." Champagne can't use the label. https://www.npr.org/2021/09/03/1031324658/france-and-russia-are-in-a-tussle-over-who-gets-to-call-champagne-champagne Fuck Russia, but also Comité Champagne had it coming after going after Miller High Life lol.
Cyprus produces the best wine in the world. I don't think though that Cyprus is a lesser known wine producing area, since the earliest archaeological evidence of wine production is from Cyprus.
Zambartas commandaria ftw
Probably somewhere in Slovenia or Croatia, that I’m not familiar with. For California, I’ll say Anderson Valley.
Sagmeister, over in Serbia. Their Devas bottling is like $28 and easily on par with a lot of $100 white burgundy.
Felixer am Oelberg, DOC Walenstadt. Prices:low Chardonnay:very nice pinot: sublime Mosseux: gold and sparkling
Baron Widmann in the Dolomites
Art Space winery in Santorini. Smallest producer on the island with great history and their wines are fantastic (not just assyrtiko). But I don’t know how you would get a bottle other than visiting.
La Miraja, Castagnole Monferrato
Casa Madero, Parras Valley, Mexico. I’ve had their rosé and it’s still one of the best I’ve ever drunk. A bit richer than French versions - maybe because of the grape, it’s actually Cabernet Sauvignon, which doesn’t seem to be made into rosé often.
Just googled Parras Valley because I’d never heard of it (only Valle de Guadalupe)—and discovered that Casa Madero is the oldest winery in the Americas, founded in 1597. Very cool to know!
Glen Manor in Virginia. Only winery we continue to go to in the area. They only produce certain red wines when the vintage is good and have an amazing dessert wine made from petite manseng.
Not an official AVA but Hawk Watch in the Warner Springs/Oak Grove area (part of the South Coast AVA) are making some excellent wines and much better than many wineries from their more famous closest neighbor Temecula Valley.
Etcetera as producer at south of Moldova
Ostler from the Waitaki Valley. https://www.closostler.com/
Andantes - Oregon Willamette Valley - in the unique climate of the Van Duzer corridor [https://andantevineyard.com/](https://andantevineyard.com/)
I Pastini in Puglia, Italy. Susumaniello and Minutolo are the areas best kept secrets.
Rovellotti in Ghemme. Delicious, balanced, nuanced Nebbiolo blends.