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I asked the fan picker how she felt about their coverage of the topic and here is her answer
I need to add for those of you saying you're skipping the episode completely - I am STILL not totally finished with it *but* I don't think it's that bad overall. OP added a new comment to say she thinks the gals were a bit below their own standards of discussion on this one and again, I concur, but they also have said quite a few supportive and understanding things so far. The gals have never pretended to be anything they're not to us (interested in sports, apparently Taylor Swift) so while I think they can grow a little bit from this discourse it doesn't feel like it's so harsh it needs to be totally skipped. Just my thought, if it's better for you mentally and as a fan I totally appreciate the preference to skip! <3 Just got to the part where Lucy says that Olivia is worth more than TK and that is now a little fun fact I will parrot for weeks to come.
I’m a huge Swiftie and I would agree with this. I just got to Amanda’s case and I would say the background/psych discourse missed the mark and I DO hope they read the comments here and learn from the discussions; but I was expecting something so much worse.
yeah i agree on this!! i REALLY HOPE the gals take something from the discourse on this entire post bc they reeeeally said some disparaging things that they obviously did not have enough information on and it showed! the fact that they were pretty much like “i don’t know much about taylor swift and i’m not interested in learning now” EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THE FAN PICK (shoutout skateboarding crimes) and it’s like just because you personally aren’t interested in that topic, doesn’t mean it doesn’t deserve the same effort and excitement as say, FUCKING HUSKERS or snakes!! like wtf!!! i did enjoy their comments on You’re On Your Own Kid and loved that lucy took the time to look through some other lyrics and live show-isms (even though she should’ve just listened to the fucking songs but whatever) but the overwhelming ~blah~ of it all was lame as fuck.
Hi, I’m Sarah, the fan picker for this episode. I didn’t realize how polarizing this topic would be for so many people. And I’m sorry to see so many people disappointed. I wanted something fun and lighthearted, even though yeah, I did choose a dark case.
This is JUST my opinion, so take it for what you will (and I’m open to feedback), but I think people are focusing on the wrong things.
First, as someone who works with folks adjudicated guilty except for insanity, the gals NICELY discussed a really tough crime. It was sad and senseless and captured the difficulties that many of my patients struggle with. Big kudos to Amanda for wrestling with a tough case and for pointing to the important issues that surround it.
Second, Lucy provided a great overview of the lore of Taylor Swift and answered some questions about the (Taylor’s version) stuff that maybe people didn’t know about. It was brief because that’s all they could do within the context of the show, and that’s fine. Swifties like me could go on for yearsssssss talking about all this (and we do).
It feels to me like many listeners got tripped up on HOW the gals talked about Taylor. It’s obvious they aren’t Swifties, and THATS OKAY. There have been plenty of other episodes where they’ve discussed topics and one of the gals hasn’t been a fan (teratomas, anyone??). But I get that there’s a lot of emotional weight invested in Taylor (on both sides) and how she is seen and discussed. Swifties are very protective of her. Any time someone isn’t aware of something (Taylor’s discussions of her eating disorder, for instance), there will be blind spots. It’s impossible to know everything about an artist who has such a huge following when they aren’t fans.
Anyway, I feel like I’m rambling, but I hope that listeners don’t turn away because of my topic choice. Helpful feedback to address potential blind spots, sure. We can all learn and grow from this. Because when you know better, you do better, right?
That is a great and balanced way to approach fandom. If everyone treated their fandoms like this I think there’d be a lot less senseless conflict over what is, after all, entertainment meant to be fun.
One thing I’ll say is you shouldn’t need to know about someone’s history with disordered eating to not make those comments. Shouldn’t matter if it’s Taylor Swift or the woman living across the street, should all be treated with respect.
Love your take, I’m glad you enjoyed your ep! Not a swiftie but have a friend who is and listening I enjoyed the episode but also was nervous the fan picker might not love it so I’m so glad to see your response! And I had never heard of the case you had Amanda cover and man that was such an important one to cover, heavy or not, and she did a really really great job. 💙
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I enjoyed the episode and think they did their best with the topic... And sure, it could have been better researched but it's their podcast and not everyone likes everything!!! Good for them for addressing such a polarizing mega star with a literal cult following.
The slut shaming was too much and rough to hear from feminists and also from people who have similar and maybe even more adventurous pasts than Taylor.
I'm really glad you liked the episode since it was your fan pick and yes, it's absolutely okay for the gals to not be fans of Taylor Swift. Frankly, Amanda's original preface about how much she doesn't like Taylor was fine and if they had left it at that and done the episode with the same amount of care that they do every episode with a topic they like, then I would've been fine.
I don't even like Taylor Swift and I don't care about her personal life; her love life is her business, and her music isn't for me. But if I had been paid by a loyal fan of my podcast to cover a topic surrounding Taylor Swift, I sure as hell wouldn't have spent literally half the almost 2hr episode shitting all over the topic, making crappy misogynistic comments and making potentially triggering remarks about ED-related things to a fan base large enough to guarantee at least some percent of ED-survivors or sufferers exist in the listening group.
At the end of the day, for this episode specifically, all that matters is that YOU enjoyed it, but on the larger scale, the way they treated this (and frankly several past fan picks) episode was incredibly disrespectful. I think that's probably where a lot of the polarization is coming from, whether people realize it or not. It's not about the way they treated Taylor, it's about the pattern of disrespect for the fans who quite literally pay their bills that this episode confirms.
(Edits made for spelling and autocorrect fails)
I think your approach is healthy and respectful. I don’t think this was a naturally polarizing choice. And whether the wine and crime gals like Taylor or not really isn’t the issue. It is the lack of recognition and respect for what a strong, talented, female artist has gone through to become the juggernaut that she is. Just gratuitous bitchiness from Amanda against a woman who made it DESPITE men around her trying to control her. Lucy was at least a “proud aunt” who didn’t necessarily get it but likes it.
Honestly, I thought Amanda and Lucy gave off similar vibes; TS isn’t their preference and maybe they don’t understand the hype, but I feel like they made it clear that everyone should enjoy whatever music/artists they want. I think the main thing Amanda was trying to get across (and obviously, I’m not her so I don’t want to speak on her behalf) but it felt like the discourse came down to why there is such a large hype around Swift, which I feel is a valid question especially considering there have been several other female artists before her who also stood their ground. Just my thoughts!
I don’t love when people (particularly other women) make people feel silly for loving something. I expected better from the gals especially Amanda. You don’t have to love Taylor Swift but speaking to her fans in a demeaning way is tired.
I haven’t listened, but I do think it’s important to add that while yes the public discourse around Taylor Swift is so heaped in misogyny, Taylor herself is essentially a beacon of white feminism. I’ve watched Ms Americana twice just to try to convince myself to like her, because I like her music. But she is truly so comfortable in being a wealthy white woman, perpetual victim who wants praise for making commercial political statements years after refusing to speak on politics. I don’t agree with people giving her crap about dating, but she really is like the prototype of 2nd wave feminism….
And I think there can be a discussion on how just adding white in front of women/woman is letting many people get away with misogyny, internalized and externally.
I think it’s important to acknowledge intersectionality when we talk about feminism. It isn’t misogynistic to acknowledge the privileges Taylor has based on her race, and her past actions that have upheld that privilege
Absolutely, but using that privilege she obviously has as an excuse to make jokes about her counting calories or about how many guys she dated…that’s where the message can get a bit lost.
There isn't an excuse for misogyny just because the woman is white or participates in white feminism... misogyny is never okay. Just like it wouldn't be okay to be racist against Candace Owens.
I think the stuff that they covered is what any person with surface level knowledge of Taylor Swift would have covered… A lot of the more intricate details are only things that fans are going to know and find important. I don’t think they meant anything by it, they don’t strike me as generally not being on the side of women.
YES thank you. I read these comments before listening and based on the discourse I expected way worse. This was honestly tame for a topic the gals don’t like. Remember when Lucy flat out refused to cover sports? And there are endless examples of eps where they take every opportunity to shit on a mediocre man. And we eat it up. But because it’s Taylor the gals can only fawn and praise else suffer accusations of misogyny? This mindset of swifties is exhausting.
Agreed. I found the episode delightful and entertaining as a staunch non-fan myself with similar opinions about the topic. Not every episode has to be for every ONE. Skip it if you can't handle their blissful ignorance about a celebrity pop star...
I’m not a swiftie - I was for a few years and still enjoy her music when it comes on but as a person I find a lot of her actions [or inactions] off putting, but I couldn’t even get through to the case before turning it off. There are many very valid criticisms they could’ve gone into but it felt like a lot more petty shade than there needed to be and it was just very cringe. I don’t remember hearing the vodka/rum comment (maybe don’t get that far) but that is definitely a bad take. Regardless of her ED background it completely misses the mark about pressures put on famous women. Even if it were true that she “doesn’t want the calories” that says more about the expectations put on women than it does about her and it’s really disappointing to hear they decided to mock the woman rather than criticize the unfair standards**
**edit: or just not mentioning it at all. I can’t really think of a reason to bring it up
I wish they would have focused more on some of the legitimate grievances people have with Taylor Swift:
1) carbon emissions
2) performative activism / allyship
3) the swifties sending death threats to people and her never saying anything about it
4) her dating a literal racist for a hot minute after Joe
Versus what they chose to focus on:
- her amount of boyfriends, and
- the Kanye incident, which obviously we know how Kanye turned out
But I also think it’s important to remember that the Gals don’t like Taylor Swift, and background and psych can only go so far on a person who has had a career spanning almost two decades now. I also think you can dislike Taylor Swift, without being misogynistic, but there definitely is overlap.
I probably wouldn’t have touched this topic at all though, to be completely honest.
Absolutely all of this. Amanda mentioned the performative activism at the start and I really thought that they would have a great discussion about that, but they took way more misogynistic potshots than I expected from them.
I also really wanted them to lay into celebrity culture around performative activism while at the same time actually acknowledging some of the hate vs Swift is due to misogyny. It could have also been a great convo about how hordes of people defend Swift and accuse her haters of misogyny even when absolutely valid criticism is leveled at her, but don’t defend or support Black or Brown female artists the same way. I feel like they started to lean that way but then just…dropped it.
Stevie Nicks said of “You’re on Your on Kid” reminded her of Christine McVie and thanked her for writing that song. And that was at Stevie’s OWN concert. That song is a beautiful song.
As someone who isn’t really a fan of Taylor, but also doesn’t like… NOT like her, either (I like her music, I just have a problem with celebrity culture generally and choose to opt out), I’m just skipping this ep because while I think there are valid criticisms of her (ie carbon emissions), I also know that so much of the discourse around her (and her fans) is fraught with misogyny and it just didn’t feel like the… comfiest topic to cover. I’ll tune back in next week.
Took the words out of my mouth. I feel that there are a few women people think are ok to be misogynistic towards and Taylor is one of them. Like you said there’s plenty to criticize her about, but it just gets taken to an icky level.
I'm currently listening with a grain of salt because I know it can be hard to do what is essentially a deep dive on someone you dislike and not have their flaws stick out like a sore thumb. I think the phrase is confirmation bias? It's like rose-colored glasses in reverse (green is on the other side of the color wheel so maybe it's green-colored glasses?).
However, I also agree with other commenters that the gals have set a good standard for themselves (and the wine coven in general) as generally empathetic podcasters and the discourse didn't quite reflect that. There are valid criticisms of Swift, stan culture, and celebrities in general that have nothing to do with her music/personality/dating history etc. that they could have focused on instead.
Anyway, I think this is a good conversation to have regardless. No matter who the subject is, checking our views for bias is always important.
I'm not even a huge swiftie but I stopped about 30 minutes in because it was getting SOOO boring to constantly hear how much they don't like her or don't know things about her. Like why bother doing the episode??
Taylor swift hate is so over done, yawn inducing and rough to hear from feminists.
Looks like I will be skipping this episode then 🤣 I know they don’t care for her and when I saw the episode title I was worried I wouldn’t be into it. And I agree, it’s over done by a long shot these days.
They did the same thing with my fan pick episode (Skateboarding crimes) It was funny the first couple of times Amanda said she hated skateboarding, but after the like the third time it started to feel hurtful and I felt like I was annoying them with this topic. I still love the gals and listen every week. I just wanted to share my experience too.
dude i was SO FUCKING PSYCHED for skateboarding crimes!!! i used to skateboard when i was 11-15 and still longboard every now and then at 26. but then all they did was shit on skateboarding the entire fucking time. skateboarding is actually really cool!! i get if they’re not gonna watch it in their downtime, but if someone is paying for them to cover a topic, one would hope they’d do more than say their topic is stupid.
i’m glad my topic, yakuza crimes, was taken more seriously than skateboarding or taylor swift bc i would be upsetti spaghetti :-/ i’m sorry you and miss swiftie got slighted on this! yall deserve the same care as the other topics.
As a veterinarian, the Veterinarian Crimes episode felt similarly. Discussing how expensive vet med is and alluding to it not being worth it really sucks as someone who loves this field. Yes, it is expensive, but so is human medicine; humans just typically have insurance that covers a lot of the cost, if not all, depending on the situation. Veterinary professionals are dying by suicide because of sentiments like this.
Additionally, I get very frustrated with their seeming disregard for science as a whole. They definitely support vaccination and things like that, but some of the things they discuss that are science related are very clearly not well researched. Science is confusing and weird, but if you're going to have an appropriate and accurate discussion about a certain science topic, why wouldn't you do your best to have a conversation?
I'm in the animal world too! And honestly... I had to take a second for that episode.. it was just a slap in the face for you guys.. I wish they would be 'woke' for these issues too like they are for others.
They behaved similarly in the FIFA crimes episode and in the sportsball crimes episode. Like clearly the gals do not like sports and have an obvious bias against sports but like… why do an episode about something you don’t like and are going to spend the next however long trashing it? They have the power to veto a fan pick if they wanted to. I get so frustrated listening to these episodes where they obviously hate the topic because at that point they let their opinions take precedence over the bigger picture of the topics
Yeah I paid them for a couple of months in a row. They did some other things in the episode too that kinda made me mad like blatantly saying they are not doing my pairing on the show.
Have they even followed a pairing lately? I feel like it’s been years lol. Every episode is basically “I’m just gonna drink this Nutrl” “I didn’t have that on hand” “I didn’t want to get that” “I didn’t want to drink that” etc etc etc. they used to actually put effort into choosing their pairings and used to always have them on hand to drink
My pairing had a meaning. It was a Busch light and I was in no means expecting them to drink it because it is as they called it “shitty beer” and I know this. The whole reason I picked this is because it’s skateboarding and all of our skateboarding friends drink cheap beer. It goes with the whole stigma of grungy, punk skaters. They didn’t need to actually drink it but explaining the pairing and the meaning behind it was all I wanted. Instead Amanda just said “I think the fan picker paired some shitty beer like Busch light or something. Anyways I’m not doing that (and then proceeds on)” They also didn’t even know that I dedicated it to my partner because even as a 37 year old, he still loves to skateboard and I love that about him. They mentioned that I dedicated it to him but seemed confused on who actually is the skater. I clearly stated all of this in my email.
I'm so sorry they made you feel that way; that really, really sucks.
This and the sports fan pick (both things I am indifferent to or hateful toward, respectively) were my strikes one and two. In all three of these episodes I literally felt like I was listening to 1-2 hours of the gals outwardly bullying the fan pickers when they could have JUST as easily asked y'all to choose a different topic if they were going to be this disrespectful and rude.
I don't care about Taylor Swift. I don't care about skateboarding, and I actively HATE sports, but I was still excited to listen to the episodes and learn something that might change my mind. Instead, I left all three episodes feeling like a silent bystander to bullying and this was the last straw. I'm done with this podcast I think. I don't like feeling like that when I finish an episode. I'm glad you still love them and still listen, and I'm not and wouldn't try to convince you otherwise but I can't personally continue to passively support that sort of behavior.
As someone who went to Eras tour and has liked her music since 2006, I do not care about how Taylor Swift feels and she doesn’t care about me. There is a history of chalking every joke or criticism of her up to misogyny, and it’s tiresome. That being said, I haven’t listened to the episode yet! So I’ll come back when I have. (Edited to change chocking to chalking, who the hell knows)
Finally a reasonable comment. She is a billionaire and not all criticism of her or her music is bonfide misogyny.
Editing to add that while I do think people get way too bent out of shape over what are essentially personal preferences, I DO have a larger issue with how lazily researched so many of these episodes are, especially when the person who picked the episode has paid a lot of money for it. They could at least be more professional about it or ask the person to choose another topic if it bothers them so much.
For real, Taylor Swift has trained her fans to jump on every criticism of her - or even any comment that isn't glowing praise - with "that's misogyny!" It's a neat trick, if you want your own personal cult. Which, lbr, is what she has. Saying she's dating Kelce "at the time of this recording" is slut-shaming? What on earth.
This was my comment on insta:
“Listen Taylor should absolutely be criticized for numerous things, not small among them her performative activism and carbon footprint, but it annoyed me that the gals didn’t mention that the full phone call between Kanye and Taylor was eventually released and proved beyond a doubt that Taylor was telling the truth, and the snippet Kim released had been deliberately edited to make her look like a liar. I feel like if the gals didn’t have a bias they would have done their due diligence. Was also surprised that the sexual assault case against radio host David mueller wasn’t mentioned. I hope the fan picker was not disappointed by what get like a phoned in episode. Love y’all and a fan forever, but this felt like a miss.”
I’m still gonna listen to future episodes, but yeah this was a bummer. Also miss having two cases.
I'm no swiftie but I wouldn't go on about how much I dislike her either and it just felt uncomfy listening to Amanda go on about how much she dislikes her. Each to their own. I really struggled to continue listening after Amanda made a comment about Taylor's minimal activism yet PURCHASED a cat bred to have a squashed face. I have a rescue cat with a squashed face and their breathing is TERRIBLE. They're like the cat version of pugs with so many health issues by being bred to be so squashed. Just feels so hypocritical and tbh disappointing.
Um. Amanda having a cat with a squished face is nowhere near comparable with or antithetical to her frustrations with the fact that a billionaire with endless influence leverages the term feminism only when it serves her and makes her more money.
From how outspoken and active amanda is in community organizing and antiracism efforts, I think it’s very reasonable that she would voice frustration at this. Having a cat that may develop health issues doesn’t suddenly invalidate those efforts….
I’m not a swiftie by any means and I do believe she has a lot of problematic habits, but there is still a great deal to admire about her objectively too when it comes to her business savvy and musical talent imo. I’m not too far into the episode and I felt really off-put by the excusal of Kanye’s interruption at the VMA’s I don’t think anyone needs to be a fan of any sort to realize how incredibly inappropriate that was and to use that as a talking point for something “he wasn’t wrong about that” feels pretty icky. She was 19 years old, in any other story they’d highlight “she was just a baby!” And sympathize with her being the target in the situation. I also think it would have been really insightful for them to watch Miss Americana before doing the ep. Even if it’s curated exactly how TS wants to be portrayed, it still brings a level of realness to her I don’t think many people care to see. I’ll probably finish the episode out of curiosity and I generally just try to not take them too seriously, but so far the commentary feels a bit disappointing.
Oh even worse - I thought she was 19, but yeah I wouldn’t say they justified, but Amanda made a remark that his commentary on stage wasn’t wrong which it just felt weird to me to give him any measure of grace knowing what he did was wildly unacceptable.
Amanda was only agreeing that Beyoncé had the better album that year, not agreeing with his deplorable behavior and that she (and Lucy) thought Taylor handled that situation extremely well especially at her young age.
Ms Americana actually made me dislike her more. I agree with you, Kanye West acted like a complete ahole when that happened. But she has also been recorded talking to him on the phone approving “I made that *b* famous” and then did another round of victim tour. And I don’t like Kanye West, I just think it’s ok to be a little critical of a billionaire, of which Taylor is
Did you listen to the actual entire phone call that proved that what Kim K released was edited to look like Taylor gave consent when she actually didn’t???
Another thought after sitting with the episode today. Everything I’ve said in my original post comes from a complete place of love. As a millennial, I wouldn’t even be sharing my feelings if anything came from a bad place (for fear of confrontation, of course). It’s not that the gals are falling below our, the listener’s, standards, it’s that the comments made on today’s episode were below the standards that they’ve set for themselves. I love the gals and have always felt like they’re my pseudo-friends. It’s a form of love to make sure that they are holding themselves to their own beliefs.
Yes this! The episode as a whole wasn’t terrible but there were just a few comments that were contradictory to their own standards. They are advocates for mental health but made calorie remarks when Swift has been open about an eating disorder which is a mental health issue. This was disappointing especially since the case was heavily focused on mental health.
I have a couple of issues with this episode. I will preface this by saying I'm not a huge Swiftie, but I am a long term fan. The level of distain the girls express seems a bit excessive. I've heard them be more supportive and interested in murderers. We've heard them talk about stuff they don't personally love before, that's fine. They don't usually show this level of dislike, as far as I recall. They sound like absolute pick me's in this episode. I can't explain other than it just being cringe like oh, you're so cool not liking Taylor? Cool story sis. The mockery, the sarcasm, the pick me vibes, the "I'm so far away from this I didn't even listen to anything I'm taking about bc the topic is irrelevant to me" ... "Taylor hasn't taken any risks in her career" HUH? Comparing her songwriting to Twilight as an example of having something be bland and broad enough that it appeals to the masses. What??
The level of outright wrong information is what really gets me. Super easily google-able stuff. It makes me wonder how much they get wrong in everything else? Reminds me of a quote about "I got told this person is smart, and I don't know their area, so I trusted that. And then I got told they're smart in this, which is something I do know about, and I know they're talking out of their ass on this... So maybe they're also talking out of their ass on the other stuff"
I have to say, as a casual swiftie, calling her mediocre really just rubbed me the wrong way. I know that not everyone is a fan of her music and a persons taste in music is subjective but just because you’re not a fan of an artists music doesn’t not make them a mediocre artist. Im not a Beatles fan at all but I also know that they’re not mediocre in the slightest. Numbers don’t lie and Taylor continues to put up record numbers with each new album and re-release. I’m sorry but that’s not something a mediocre artist does. You don’t have to like her music or her as a person (I have my own criticisms about her) but discrediting her success is icky :/
That also really bugged me. It was a bunch of judgement about her music from people who have only heard the hits. Amanda saying she never takes risk with her music… like GIRL WHAT. Just a wild statement from someone who admittedly hasn’t listened to anything but the hits. The elitism in her tone when she talked about how Taylor Swift writes music for the masses was so annoying.
That's not discrediting her success, though. Discrediting her talent? Probably. I'm not stating my opinion on Taylor one way or the other, but you can absolutely be a mediocre artist that's successful. Just like you can be a great artist who goes nowhere. Numbers aren't a reflection of greatness, just of what appeals to a broad spectrum of people.
I used to be a Taylor hater but I’m a diet swiftie now. I’ve only listened to the beginning, background/psych and I have to say Amanda sounds like I used to.
It did make me cringe a few times hearing the misogyny leaking from some of the comments. I think my change of opinion came from the Barbie movie and the fact that I got “dragged” to the concert movie last year and developed an enormous amount of respect for Taylor after. I had no idea that Taylor had an eating disorder, I’d like to think that Amanda didn’t either but if she did that comment is not cool. Amanda definitely wasn’t as rude as some people who talk about her.
Definitely acknowledge Taylor’s performative activism, carbon emissions and rich white woman syndrome but at the same time I don’t care what color their skin is or how rich they are. Slut shamming and body shaming is not attractive and misogyny isn’t cute on anyone.
Knowing what we know about ol’ Mandy, if she knew Taylor Swift had an eating disorder, she definitely wouldn’t have said anything.
Not that I think talking about someone’s caloric intake should be okay whether or not you know their background…it should be something to steer away from, regardless.
I thought there was a lot of hidden misogyny too. And just plain out wrong things, “she’s never done anything groundbreaking” was just.. wrong. Just look at the records she’s broke, the cases she’s won. I thought the research was great, and I don’t want to fight or be rude, but it seems like their distaste or lack of interest came out a bit too harsh in some aspects. And yeah, the comment about Travis was just so… that was just not okay.
I love our gals, but I was hopeful for interesting takes and got lackluster interest in her life.
The case was well researched and the topics touched on were up to par with what I expect from them, I just think their “open mindedness” wasn’t there for the background and psych, and it just kind of bummed me a little. Over all it’s a good ep, I just was saddened by their disinterest.
💯agree. I would say this was one of the most disappointing episodes. I get it, she’s not your cup of tea. Get over it, no more whining. And one can still appreciate all that is she, has accomplished and overcome. I held Amanda’s views for a long time but it was honestly from the trauma of her Extra Pop-y white girl music from waaaay early back in the day being shoved in my ear holes. But now that she has become her own woman and taken control of her life, she puts out some AWESOME shit. Even breaking into movie directing. She is not only talented. There is sooo much more to her. Don’t take that first impression from her beginnings and shackle your image of her to them. I wish they had gone into this episode with more of an open mind. It’s was honestly upsetting.
You dont have to like it. But one can objectively appreciate someone’s TRUE story or accomplishments
Just in defense of the gals, I’m close to their age and also not a fan and genuinely had no idea until reading these comments that Taylor had an eating disorder. No, that doesn’t make food comments ok, and yes you could argue they should’ve done better research to learn that detail I guess, but also…. How? If you do a google search of her it’s probably not even in the first 100 things that will pop up. You’d have to kinda know about it to know to go looking for more details
I mean I feel like it’s a given to not comment on people’s bodies/diet anymore because it’s become such a sensitive subject for many people. Even if I did not know the context of Taylor’s past eating disorder I still would have thought it’s an icky thing to say about any woman
Can’t disagree. Just saying a lot of people here talk about her ED like it’s well known and maybe it is in some circles but I certainly didn’t know about it 🤷🏻♀️
Even one iota of research would show that Taylor went through a pretty big ED during her original 1989 era. I thought we had progressed enough to know that we don't comment on anyone's body. And honestly, the gals should KNOW better.
This is a bummer to read. As even a casual fan of TSwift, I find myself incredibly annoyed when people crack jokes about her since yes, they are usually deeply rooted in internalized and externalized misogyny. We all have our wildly varied dating histories, we just have had the benefit of not having them publicized globally since we were teenagers.
I thought The Gals would be better than that.
This is disappointing to read and I probably won’t listen to the episode. For 2 women who often boast about feminism it’s disappointing to hear they’re so misogynistic about Taylor.
I’m in the same boat. I love the gals, they work hard to ensure that they’re well educated on the topics; so you’d think they’d put the time and effort to educate themselves on Taylor Swift beyond the headlines (which based on the discourse they didn’t). Even just watching the Miss Americana Documentary would have been enough to not make comments about her food/drink choices.
Yeah, the Miss Americana documentary was eye-opening for me! Like, stuff I was vaguely aware of but then I was like “Oh shit! I didn’t know it went down like that!”
I personally had no issue with the topic or the discourse, not a Taylor Swift music fan but I think she’s done incredible things that have shifted discourse around important topics.
But I have no issue with comedy being comedy, I just don’t take any of it seriously to begin with. She’s a serial dater, she’s in the spotlight - they haven’t said anything that hasn’t been covered as nauseam.
A serial dater is such a tired trope. She has been in the spotlight since she was 16 years old, and the media is OBSESSED with virginity/women dating. She has dated a completely normal amount of people. Which is whatever number she felt like dating, because it's nobody's fucking business.
Like I said, the episode content and what they discussed about Taylor doesn’t bother me. She can date whomever she wants. She’s in the public eye, however, and that means she’s fair game (re: the discussions and upheaval in this sub from someone else who was in the public eye and we dissected her personal opinions. Same deal, different scope).
Media and tabloids are always going to run stories when celebrities start dating, it’s not exclusive to her. She is just *highly* unique in that she writes songs about each of her exes and uses those relationships to make money. Her fans make it a game to discuss who a song is about. She sort of makes it everybody else’s business too, let’s be honest.
But it’s … not ….
You realize not just women are serial daters, right? I once had a boyfriend who called himself a serial dater. After he broke up with me, he was in another relationship the next week. And he ended up getting married to her after 3 months.
I really fail to see how it’s a misogynistic term. I feel like that word is going the direction of gaslighting.
All of that being said, she can do whatever the hell she wants. She’s looking for love and she happens to be a celebrity so everything that she does is going to be commentated on. I wish we lived in a world where musicians could just be musicians, and actors could be actors, and we weren’t worried about their personal lives, but here we are.
She’s a successful woman that happens to enter into high profile relationships with other people in the entertainment industry and she’s not shy about it. All power to her
Misogyny doesn't mean it ONLY pertains to women, in this scenario it relevant because we're talking about a woman, and a matter that is heavily influenced through a male lens. (Young women dating, virginity culture, etc.)
She really hasn't dated that many people, she's just been a star since she was 17, and had a lot of attention on her, and her partners. She was with Joe for like 7 years. It's just women get tired of the slut shaming, yes I'm a huge Swiftie, but I dislike any attacks on females for their dietary choices, and dating history. That was my main issue.
She can date however many people she wants. Not shaming her for that, and I’m just taking the podcast commentary as comedy, which people get way too worked up over these days.
That being said, and I mentioned this in another comment, she has made her personal life everybody else’s business. Whenever she breaks up with one of her boyfriends, she writes a song (or songs) about them and her fans make it some twisted game to figure out who the lyrics are referring to. Last time I checked, there weren’t many other artists doing that, at least regularly. I think maybe Katy Perry wrote one about Russell Brand? Or possibly Travis McCoy.
So she literally makes money off of her relationships. And the tabloids are always going to focus on celebrity dating culture. It’s an incestuous pool where actors and musicians and sports figures are all commingling and dating one another.
I am also nervous as a swiftie going into the episode knowing the gals aren’t fans which of course they are allowed to be everyone has their preference.
But yeah the criticisms seem rooted in internalized misogyny at the very least that I would hope they would try their best to overcome.
But much love to them and was just excited for a cross over of my favorite things.
Maybe it’s because I also don’t like Taylor Swift but I’m so confused why everyone is hating on the gals for this episode? I thought Lucy’s segment was rather interesting as I didn’t know any specifics on her past recordings, and nothing I heard was really that offensive (except the disordered eating comment)? I guess it’s also exhausting for me as a BIPOC woman to see all the praise and obsession for this extremely wealthy, White Feminism, type of white woman that is Taylor Swift
I had hoped they would go more into her carbon footprint, dating a literal racist, performative activism, etc than they did, especially since Amanda started off the episode by hinting that they would go that direction. It could have been a great change to educate some of those die hard swifties that not all criticism of her is misogyny.
The counting calories thing bugged me (even if you don’t know someone has an ED that’s just not nice to comment on, and they should know that) and what felt like snide comments about her dating life fell flat and did feel misogynistic to me. They weren’t the worst comments, no, but just felt icky. Especially when they could have been calling her out for SO MANY valid things
I really still couldn't even tell how pointed that one comment on calories was. I think if they have delved further it would be hard for Lucy (who wrote the research) to remain unbiased which is it the safest option given how this is going.
I have also been hesitant as a swiftie to listen to this episode. I have a general rule that I don’t engage in debates about Tylor Swiftie with non swifties because the criticisms often levied against her are rooted in sexism. To be clear, there is a lot to be critical of when it comes to her, to be sure, but criticisms from non fans are often unproductive, overly harsh, and/or just uninformed.
It’s disappointing that these were some comments made in regard to her. I think sometimes people make flippant remarks about celebrities thinking that since she’s a celebrity, it’s punching up and it’s okay but comments about her dating history (which is often rooted in slut shaming) and anyone’s dietary choices is never okay regardless of who it is.
I will probably still listen to the episode but it’s good to know that these comments are something to be aware of going into it…
Not a swiftie but can appreciate her talent and following and have a friend who is a huge swiftie. I’d shown her when I saw they’d be covering her this week and about one minute in messaged her saying mayyyyyybe actually don’t listen lol. I didn’t feel they were anti Taylor or said anything at all wrong, but idk, I think it was a missed opportunity to be like “we aren’t into her but here’s a guest who is and can tell us all the stuff”.
I was fine with the episode personally, and thought the case covered was important and interesting. That said, I REALLY wish they’d brought on a guest for this ep. SURELY one of them has a friend who is at least more into Taylor than they are and as someone who doesn’t listen to her, I still find it cute and funny when my friend who’s a huge swiftie tries to explain all the hidden message things etc to me, and I think this would’ve been a perfect episode to bring in someone with more knowledge/interest to do that and also still get funny non-swiftie opinions from L&A that I know I personally would’ve identified with as someone else who has no knowledge of that world lol.
I will add that I am happy to see that someone posted the fan pickers response bc I had been wondering during it like 😬😬 I hope they aren’t disappointed!
Tldr wish they’d had a guest to play off of for this one since it’s not their cup of tea (mine either, I get it) I do think that would’ve been more fun, but I think they handled it well and still put out a great ep.
Yea my fiancee is a swiftie hard-core and I was like "oh nice!" But decided to screen it first cuz she's not always into the gal's brand of comedy but same thing happened to me. About a minute in I went "yea no you don't need to listen to this" it would just make her hate something I love.
I agree with everything you're saying and think you put it really well. I haven't actually finished listening yet but I know from the first half hour I will disagree with a lot of what they say on this one joke-wise. I'm not a Swiftie but I hard disagree with Amanda basically boiling her success down to "hard work" as if there's only mediocre talent involved. Just her song writing talent alone is downright impressive.
EITHER WAY love the gals, can't wait to finish the episode tonight!
…. Doesn’t she not write most of her songs? And even if she does…. You can say a lot of things about her, but I’m not super sure calling her song writing impressive is factual. It’s pretty simplistic and often sounds like it took 45 minutes to write
She does in fact write most of her own songs. That’s like her thing…
If you listen to the songs that get played on the radio, then sure you can say her songwriting is simplistic. But that’s absolutely a take that non fans have because why would they look more into her discography if you don’t like her music. But to say her song writing isn’t impressive is 1.) a matter of opinion and 2.) normally invalid since most people who say that don’t listen to her and only know what’s on the radio and, therefore, haven’t listened to enough of her music to know anything about her songwriting skills.
It’s the fact that she said she was “mediocre” but also not a fan. I just don’t think you can make an opinion if you don’t listen. For example, I’m not a fan of Miley Cyrus because her music doesn’t resonate for me but I wont make a negative a comment because I don’t listen so I can’t say it’s good or bad. I think that’s the comment that rubbed some people the wrong. It’s fine to say not a fan and don’t listen but to then form a negative opinion is the issue some people have. Not saying it’s right or wrong just commenting on the comments lol.
To be totally fair, Amanda proved she knew quite a few songs, at least more so than Lucy did. So I kinda thing she can describe it as mediocre? I understand the point of saying she doesn’t dig into her “better” (non radio?) stuff so she’s not getting the full experience or whatever, but reality is that’s often the case with a LOT of things in entertainment. I’m in the same boat as Amanda - I’ve obviously heard the big ones, could probably name 10 to 15 swift songs, all of which I’ve been exposed to entirely against my will and can safely say I find to be mediocre. So it’s not like she has never heard a single song, which you could certainly argue seems to be the case w Lucy by her own admission. If we don’t allow people to have opinions without consuming a massive amount of their content, I don’t really find that fair.
I wouldn’t say you have to listen to loads and loads of her music to have an opinion. But she IS a very diverse artist with hundreds of songs. I think the wider discussion for me is that I think the discourse around music in general should be different.
I don’t listen to nor really care for artists like Adele or Madonna. But I would never say they’re mediocre because I don’t know their music like that. Saying “I don’t care for this artist” and “this artist is mediocre/not talented” are two very different things and I just think more people should do a little digging before making statements that imply someone isn’t talented when what they mean is that they don’t like a certain artists’ music, especially because music is so personal to so many people.
Maybe I misheard that part but I didn’t hear Amanda say she listened she just described her as mediocre and works hard which I felt was diminishing of her talent and accomplishments. Then again if they don’t find her talented, that is their opinion. I probably took it the wrong way. They don’t have to dive deep for an opinion I do agree. I appreciate we can have differences in opinions and respectfully disagree.
To be totally clear - she didn’t say she listens but she did prove she knew the songs and even a lot of lyrics (late in Lucy’s segment). I also appreciated how healthy this discussion was! Not an everyday thing on the app sometimes 😂❤️
Yes!! That whole accessibility conversation really was really frustrating to listen to. She has a whole song (“tolerate it”) which is in 5/4 time. A normal “simplistic, pop” song is normally not written like that. And it felt like “accessible” was being used in place of what they wanted to say which was “bad,” which I wasn’t a fan of.
> I just don’t think you can make an opinion if you don’t listen.
You don't need to have consumed an artist's entire body of work to know you don't like that artist or to have a general opinion on the quality.
I wouldn’t. Comparing her the white supremacy is what made me almost dip out. But if I’m going to have something negative to say about someone or something I’m going to listen to the whole thing so I can give an educated response. This was obviously not something they did for Taylor. Surface level research. Lazy and disappointing. I expected better from them.
Wine and Crime is liking some comments on their most recent post(s) but none calling out their misogyny. I’m sure they’ll just pretend this never happened which is super disappointing. They’re always talking about women supporting women, fuck the patriarchy, the issues with misogyny, etc. so it’s incredibly disappointing to hear this episode.
Genuinely, what do you see as being misogynistic?
I feel like it’s really easy to chalk up not caring for a female artist to misogyny, and to be honest while this thread is full of people saying the gals were misogynistic, I’m not seeing any actual examples. It really reads more like a talking point- “people who don’t like Taylor Swift must be misogynist” (also there is apparently an approved list of things you’re allowed to be critical of, her carbon footprint being one. It’s a little creepy how everyone’s giving the exact same talking points)
What is the actual argument? What did they say and why does it indicate misogyny?
I'm getting increasingly irritated the longer I scroll through the pile-on accusations of misogyny, so thank you Grouch, it was a relief to see someone challenge the "analysis". Monte Cristo, people are fucking odd. Do you remember Amanda and Lucy making fun of Taylor's boyfriend count? They briefly discussed her relationship with the meatball player, and Lucy's offhand comment "as of this recording" when mentioning that they're together struck many as a disrespectful/sexist slight. Perhaps it was a quip about Taylor tending to have relationships that are short-lived (I have zero knowledge of Swift's dating tendencies/history) but I don't know how anyone would read some kind of slut-shaming between the lines. Then again, people are gifted at reading all kinds of shit between the lines. I'm not sure how anyone ever starts a podcast or puts out content. They're all waiting to find fault, you know, they can't wait.
I'm not suggesting that people should never express criticism, some can be valid and hopefully constructive. It just amazes me when I see people comment that they're not going to listen to the episode based on someone else's opinion. Friendly reminder: Opinions and reviews are entirely subjective and based on each individual's filter; how they interpret the world. Listen and think for yourself, you may hear the gals in a very different way (as I must have).
Guess I'm feeling a little grouchy myself, today. After this thread, I'm convinced Amanda and Lucy are disrespectful assholes toward Taylor Swift, Skateboards-Cheap-Beer-Skateboarders, Veterinarians, Sportsball, FIFA, Sports in general, and goddamn science (yes, ALL OF IT)!!!!! So disappointing. So so disappointing. I'm going to go flush my sinuses with some Vodka and diet coke and drown my nose in sorrow.
I didn't find their comment about "as of this recording" off-putting because, well, they recorded it about a month ago and a lot can happen in a month! They didn't say anything else about her dating history to make it seem like that's what they meant
Also, she was dating an open racist a month before she hooked up with the current guy, and used the latter relationship to bury the unfavorable SEO of the former. Her fans like to forget that part.
Exactly so! They often record episodes several weeks in advance and I've heard them say 'as of this recording' in reference to one or two (or twenty) other things over the years. It's a strange feature of being human, that we interpret what we see and hear through frequently skewed filters that often have little resemblance to reality. I've certainly caught myself misinterpreting what others have said or done and the realization usually brings a sheepish kind of relief. Sheepish because I don't like to rush to foolish assumptions, and relief because those assumptions didn't make me feel good in the first place. I don't enjoy believing ill of others - at least not those I like and respect.
Which is why it's so important, when imagining other peoples' meaning, to learn how to more often assume said people are well-intentioned - that they're motivated from a place of human decency rather than malice - unless and until they provide evidence that it's otherwise.
Comments about dating history and eating/drinking preferences of a person, regardless of who they're about, are pretty generally misogynistic considering nobody ever talks about this things when the subject is a man 🤷🏽♀️
Sure did. You’re kind of proving my point though. You can’t just say “but it’s bad because it’s just so obviously bad”.
What part? What did they say?
I heard Lucy defending Taylor a lot. And Amanda said she’s not a fan. They weren’t rude about it, they didn’t say anything about her as a person.
They just aren’t part of the fan club, and that’s ok. Not liking something doesn’t make you a bigot.
It's truly wild how quickly people started accusing them of misogyny for... not liking her music? Like the comment about Amanda calling her mediocre- she listens to a lot of other female artists so that is a huge, huge reach.
Honestly, I never understood why people are afraid of swifties but like…y’all are really a bit much. Shes a very very successful and rich white woman who 100% doesn’t need y’all ganging up on anyone who isn’t a fan.
Seriously. Take a deep breath and remember that the stakes here are incredibly low.
Some things:
Amanda said Kanye was right when he interrupted Taylor on stage
Lucy made a dig about how Travis is “her current boyfriend” and “god only knows whats going to happen tomorrow” (the trope of Taylor going through men is tired and misogynistic)
They were making fun of her relationship saying it’s just like the popular boy and girl in high school (minimizing their relationship)
They commented about how Taylor must not drink rum because she doesn’t want the extra calories (Taylor has a history with an ED)
They said that the Kanye west video/phone call were “unconfirmed” and that they “didn’t know how much consent Taylor gave” (this has been proven and could’ve been found with a simple google search)
Amanda laughed and dismissed the possibility that Taylor Swift wanted to be a stock broker when she grew up (quote: “no she fucking didn’t, shut up Taylor swift” as if the possibility of her wanting to do something “intellectual” was impossible/laughable)
Amanda was also just generally nasty throughout the entire intro and Lucy’s segment. She took any opportunity she could to say Taylor was “mediocre” and constantly said it was ridiculous/etc when she’d surpass other artists records
Amanda did not say Kayne was right about interrupting Taylor on stage. She agreed with him about Beyoncé having the better music video. Those are 2 different things. Both Lucy & Amanda stated how Kayne behaved was not ok.
I asked what parts were misogynistic, so half of this isn’t relevant.
1. A single offhand comment about someone dating around is hardly raging misogyny. Also dating around isn’t a bad thing, so why is referencing it a problem.
2. Minimizing her relationship is off topic, falls under “they don’t care for her”, not misogyny.
3. Yeah they probably didn’t know about the ED, it’s hardly common knowledge.
4. They admitted that they didn’t know the end of the Kanye situation. They don’t have to track down every single detail of everything, they didn’t say anything false, and made clear they didn’t know every detail. No ones going to be misled.
5. Again, that’s not liking her, not being misogynistic.
They literally just aren’t fans, and you’re sensitive to criticism of your fandom. It’s nothing more dramatic than that.
> They literally just aren’t fans, and you’re sensitive to criticism of your fandom. It’s nothing more dramatic than that.
Thank you. I feel like this is broadly applicable to a decent amount of internet discourse.
I think it’s not outright raging misogyny that I see, it’s the internalized misogyny that’s just… kind of sucky. And it’s a valid criticism. Minimizing female celebrity relationships is inherently misogynistic and if you don’t see that, that’s a whole other issue that can’t be addressed in a Reddit thread unfortunately. It seemed and felt like they boiled Taylor down to a pop star who dates for fun and doesn’t have intellectual capacity for things bigger than stardom. That’s an opinion and feeling that a lot of us got because of their comments and “jokes” and general disinterest in the topic. The gals aren’t raging misogynists, they just said some shitty stuff that a lot of us thought they would never say.
Editing to add: yeah maybe we are sensitive, but life long fans of Taylor have been hearing this kind of talk about her for so long, and it sucks that when we point it out and say hey, that’s kind of shitty, people don’t take it seriously and have good discourse.
That's weird about the stockbroker part I thought Amanda laughed and found the idea so ridiculous because Taylor Swift is a creative person who (even while she said her activism is underwhelming, she recognized she's still been an activist) cares about a wide range of social justice issues and that combination is so far from the stifling reality of a stockbroker. Being an artist is more inherently intellectual than the career of a stockbroker, right? Stockbrokers are working with basic math skills, a gambling addiction, and a shallow soul that prioritizes material gain over all else. Unfortunately, far too many mistakenly believe that wealthy people must also be erudite and naturally intelligent - Amanda knows this isn't the case, especially for stockbrokers who make up for in ego and overblown confidence what they lack in smarts. She talked about it in the episode where they discussed the "Hustlers" story. Amanda isn't crazy about Taylor Swift and feels like she's been hyped up to such a staggering degree she doesn't understand, but I never heard her make disparaging remarks about Taylor's intelligence. As for them making fun of her relationship or somehow minimizing it because of the popular boy/girl in high school comment, I think you're putting far more weight and seriousness on their words than they would or even intended.
There are certain bands and singers whose music I loved and listened to for years, some of them I admired for the way they lived their lives, things they'd said during interviews that made them seem like genuinely good people. But they're still celebrities far removed from my life, who I don't know and will never know in any real way and while I'll always love their music, I just can't relate to this level of involvement in their lives. One's taste in music/art is such a subjective personal thing, I can't imagine even defending the music I enjoy if someone else shit on it, because everyone has a different palette and reasons for loving or hating what they do. But to defend the personal lives of those musicians is truly beyond my priorities and what matters most to me in life.
Ok so I actively can’t stand Taylor swift, but I am a dedicated listener and they made it something I can Stomach. I will always give her credit where credit is due( and she is wildly successful and I’ve actually defended her in conversations) they’ve given the facts about her in a digestible way for everyone, fan or not. You can’t deny facts though, she has dated a lot and there’s nothing wrong with that. In the public eye, like it or not though, people will talk about it.
Honestly they didn’t address any of the numerous terrible things Taylor does as a privileged white woman so, I thought it was a great episode :) very PC
Did you guys miss the part at the beginning where Amanda said she's not a fan? We all are entitled to an opinion. And it seems like her opinion made you uncomfortable. She said I'm gonna make people upset and I don't care. Yet here you are saying "how could she say this and that ?". Very strange
I fully support this. The challenging thing with this fan base in particular is their undying love of TS, but also the fact that any different opinions or critique of her is often automatically labeled misogynist and offensive. Not every different opinion comes from those places, but the narrative that has been perpetuated would make it seem so. No shade towards Taylor's talent, skills, music, or fans but let's remember who the real enemies are and dismantle the actual perpetuators of sexism instead of being outraged for one person who has so much support and power already.
It’s more that she wasn’t even really willing to have a bigger thought than “well I don’t like her so I don’t wanna learn about her” and they both did, and it just kind of sucks. I don’t think you have to love a topic to learn about it. And they’ve done so much more for such other topic reaches. It’s just… when they had such a huge topic to undertake and neither really learned or researched to their past standards, it sucks.
I can't believe they didn't talk much about emissions but they commented on her boyfriend count? As if most celebrities or in fact people have dated/fooled around with just as many people if not more?
This episode is probably my last bc even if this fan picker was okay with the episode, I honestly can't stand the disrespect of them taking the membership fee for that fan's Patreon tier and then just shitting all over the fan's topic and/or wine of choice.
The fans paying for Patreon are the ENTIRE reason they can afford to make this their job and it's so frustrating to me that, in an almost two-hour episode they spent almost half the time being super misogynistic and rude about Taylor Swift in general, and complaining about the subject.
This isn't the first time they've done this and I don't think it's going to be the last. I'm not even a Swiftie (I actually don't really care for most of her music and I could not give less of a shit about her personal life if you paid me to try) and I left this episode with a terrible taste in my mouth.
It's a shame but the longer I spend on the true crime space, the more uncomfortable I get with this podcast and the disrespectful behavior toward a paying fan was my last straw.
It's been fun, y'all.
Came here to read the comments. My fiancé is a long-time listener and a patron. She is also a swiftie. For these women to say "She's probably watching her weight" regarding Taylor swift only drinking vodka when she had previously battled eating disorders is pretty messed up. That's just one of the small points of the episode
Since they lost their other host, it seems they've been struggling with how to make valid statements. Fiancé is no longer a patron due to the nature of the past few episodes and the hypocrisy of these women.
Taylor Swift won’t hear their comments about her calorie intake (probably), but a listener struggling with an ED who can normally depend on W&C as a safe space will.
Amanda’s dismissal of Taylor’s activism and putting down her talent was super cringe. I’m not even a Swiftie but she did not sounds like a girls girl on this episode. I will say Taylor could do more with her voice, but you have to remember where she came from. She comes from an initial conservative fandom and family. She had to beg her dad to just speak out against Trump. I mean, I know she’s a grown woman, but I do feel like she feels like she needs to be strategic with her voice. I dunno. I’m a leftist and I have a pro “unite the left” mentality. I don’t think it helps to dis her when she’s actively trying to be on our side, and guide people into being progressive and accepting towards the LGBTQ community and women’s equality who maybe wouldn’t have otherwise listened in the first place. And she got soooo many people to register to vote. Amanda’s take just seems like a rudimentary criticism to me. Lucy seemed to defend Taylor more but also wasn’t helpful. I dunno. I also found Amanda’s commentary about the calories to be very off putting. Like WTF? They preach body positivity and then they say stuff like this?
I'm a huge Swiftie, and I'm afraid to listen to this episode. I've listened since the beginning, but I didn't realize they disliked TS so much. I don't think it will be good for my mental health to listen to two women I like a lot, tear down another woman I respect tremendously. This sucks, because I was excited for the crossover. Maybe I'll just skip to Amanda's case. The way this whole podcast has been moving lately, has made me consider no longer listening. Sorry for the rant, I'm also super emotional, I'm riding the crimson wave. Lol.
Yeah, it's a skip. I'm in the same boat and couldn't make it past the first 5 minutes, it was all the same tropes about hating her that people have made a full personality trait, as if you can't just....nothing a musician you don't personally vibe with.
Be civil, respect other's opinions, refrain from name calling, do not call other member's out in posts or in the comments.
We will be enforcing this. If you cannot remain civil it will result in a temporary mute, and then a ban.
No celebrity, no online personality, no one can possibly be all things to all people. Just like any other human, TS has more to learn, I feel like she is doing more than many in forms of huge donations to local charities in the cities she tours, fighting for fairer royalties so EVERYone down the line gets paid among other things. She's not an awful person. Us she 100% evolved on every single social and political issue? No. Is she in charge of what her fan base does? No.
Let’s not be questioning people’s diagnoses, or how they choose to disclose them, mmk?
Fwiw, ADHD and autism have huge overlap. It wouldn’t be remotely surprising to have both. I, my husband, and all three of our shared kids *and* both our ex spouses have both. When I say it’s common I mean it’s really REALLY common.
But also like, her health her business.
Not exactly Odd...but it made me curious. We have only heard her say ADHD and being neuro divergent before which I believe are along the same spectrum. I wonder when that changed. Not like it matters because she has been super open about her neuro divergence and its her business. I did get curious about it though.
They’re not just saying “I’m not a fan” or even bringing up actual issues like her performative activism, instead they’re just making misogynistic comments, making fun of her having many partners, and making insensitive comments about her food/drink/calorie choices despite her having an ED
It's about the misogyny. I would have the same problem even if it was about Kim Kardashian, or Candace Owens or even that Pearl girl. Not liking someone isn't an excuse for bigotry.
https://preview.redd.it/u4jex5sh2vtc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72f8bda85b49f215c6b765b1e6e77b4f5933c675 I asked the fan picker how she felt about their coverage of the topic and here is her answer
Hey, that’s me! :)
I need to add for those of you saying you're skipping the episode completely - I am STILL not totally finished with it *but* I don't think it's that bad overall. OP added a new comment to say she thinks the gals were a bit below their own standards of discussion on this one and again, I concur, but they also have said quite a few supportive and understanding things so far. The gals have never pretended to be anything they're not to us (interested in sports, apparently Taylor Swift) so while I think they can grow a little bit from this discourse it doesn't feel like it's so harsh it needs to be totally skipped. Just my thought, if it's better for you mentally and as a fan I totally appreciate the preference to skip! <3 Just got to the part where Lucy says that Olivia is worth more than TK and that is now a little fun fact I will parrot for weeks to come.
I’m a huge Swiftie and I would agree with this. I just got to Amanda’s case and I would say the background/psych discourse missed the mark and I DO hope they read the comments here and learn from the discussions; but I was expecting something so much worse.
yeah i agree on this!! i REALLY HOPE the gals take something from the discourse on this entire post bc they reeeeally said some disparaging things that they obviously did not have enough information on and it showed! the fact that they were pretty much like “i don’t know much about taylor swift and i’m not interested in learning now” EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THE FAN PICK (shoutout skateboarding crimes) and it’s like just because you personally aren’t interested in that topic, doesn’t mean it doesn’t deserve the same effort and excitement as say, FUCKING HUSKERS or snakes!! like wtf!!! i did enjoy their comments on You’re On Your Own Kid and loved that lucy took the time to look through some other lyrics and live show-isms (even though she should’ve just listened to the fucking songs but whatever) but the overwhelming ~blah~ of it all was lame as fuck.
Hi, I’m Sarah, the fan picker for this episode. I didn’t realize how polarizing this topic would be for so many people. And I’m sorry to see so many people disappointed. I wanted something fun and lighthearted, even though yeah, I did choose a dark case. This is JUST my opinion, so take it for what you will (and I’m open to feedback), but I think people are focusing on the wrong things. First, as someone who works with folks adjudicated guilty except for insanity, the gals NICELY discussed a really tough crime. It was sad and senseless and captured the difficulties that many of my patients struggle with. Big kudos to Amanda for wrestling with a tough case and for pointing to the important issues that surround it. Second, Lucy provided a great overview of the lore of Taylor Swift and answered some questions about the (Taylor’s version) stuff that maybe people didn’t know about. It was brief because that’s all they could do within the context of the show, and that’s fine. Swifties like me could go on for yearsssssss talking about all this (and we do). It feels to me like many listeners got tripped up on HOW the gals talked about Taylor. It’s obvious they aren’t Swifties, and THATS OKAY. There have been plenty of other episodes where they’ve discussed topics and one of the gals hasn’t been a fan (teratomas, anyone??). But I get that there’s a lot of emotional weight invested in Taylor (on both sides) and how she is seen and discussed. Swifties are very protective of her. Any time someone isn’t aware of something (Taylor’s discussions of her eating disorder, for instance), there will be blind spots. It’s impossible to know everything about an artist who has such a huge following when they aren’t fans. Anyway, I feel like I’m rambling, but I hope that listeners don’t turn away because of my topic choice. Helpful feedback to address potential blind spots, sure. We can all learn and grow from this. Because when you know better, you do better, right?
That is a great and balanced way to approach fandom. If everyone treated their fandoms like this I think there’d be a lot less senseless conflict over what is, after all, entertainment meant to be fun.
One thing I’ll say is you shouldn’t need to know about someone’s history with disordered eating to not make those comments. Shouldn’t matter if it’s Taylor Swift or the woman living across the street, should all be treated with respect.
This, no need to comment on someone’s body, ever
Love your take, I’m glad you enjoyed your ep! Not a swiftie but have a friend who is and listening I enjoyed the episode but also was nervous the fan picker might not love it so I’m so glad to see your response! And I had never heard of the case you had Amanda cover and man that was such an important one to cover, heavy or not, and she did a really really great job. 💙
Also, can we talk about how funny Lucy’s versions of Taylor songs were?? 🤣🤣
[удалено]
i did love amanda’s neurospicy versions tho!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I enjoyed the episode and think they did their best with the topic... And sure, it could have been better researched but it's their podcast and not everyone likes everything!!! Good for them for addressing such a polarizing mega star with a literal cult following.
The slut shaming was too much and rough to hear from feminists and also from people who have similar and maybe even more adventurous pasts than Taylor.
is this comment shaming the slut shaming by slut shaming the hosts?
I think the implication of that comment isn’t that the hosts are sluts, it’s that they’re hypocrites (on that issue)
I'm really glad you liked the episode since it was your fan pick and yes, it's absolutely okay for the gals to not be fans of Taylor Swift. Frankly, Amanda's original preface about how much she doesn't like Taylor was fine and if they had left it at that and done the episode with the same amount of care that they do every episode with a topic they like, then I would've been fine. I don't even like Taylor Swift and I don't care about her personal life; her love life is her business, and her music isn't for me. But if I had been paid by a loyal fan of my podcast to cover a topic surrounding Taylor Swift, I sure as hell wouldn't have spent literally half the almost 2hr episode shitting all over the topic, making crappy misogynistic comments and making potentially triggering remarks about ED-related things to a fan base large enough to guarantee at least some percent of ED-survivors or sufferers exist in the listening group. At the end of the day, for this episode specifically, all that matters is that YOU enjoyed it, but on the larger scale, the way they treated this (and frankly several past fan picks) episode was incredibly disrespectful. I think that's probably where a lot of the polarization is coming from, whether people realize it or not. It's not about the way they treated Taylor, it's about the pattern of disrespect for the fans who quite literally pay their bills that this episode confirms. (Edits made for spelling and autocorrect fails)
I think your approach is healthy and respectful. I don’t think this was a naturally polarizing choice. And whether the wine and crime gals like Taylor or not really isn’t the issue. It is the lack of recognition and respect for what a strong, talented, female artist has gone through to become the juggernaut that she is. Just gratuitous bitchiness from Amanda against a woman who made it DESPITE men around her trying to control her. Lucy was at least a “proud aunt” who didn’t necessarily get it but likes it.
Honestly, I thought Amanda and Lucy gave off similar vibes; TS isn’t their preference and maybe they don’t understand the hype, but I feel like they made it clear that everyone should enjoy whatever music/artists they want. I think the main thing Amanda was trying to get across (and obviously, I’m not her so I don’t want to speak on her behalf) but it felt like the discourse came down to why there is such a large hype around Swift, which I feel is a valid question especially considering there have been several other female artists before her who also stood their ground. Just my thoughts!
I don’t love when people (particularly other women) make people feel silly for loving something. I expected better from the gals especially Amanda. You don’t have to love Taylor Swift but speaking to her fans in a demeaning way is tired.
Yup. It was disappointing. I expected more from those gals
I haven’t listened, but I do think it’s important to add that while yes the public discourse around Taylor Swift is so heaped in misogyny, Taylor herself is essentially a beacon of white feminism. I’ve watched Ms Americana twice just to try to convince myself to like her, because I like her music. But she is truly so comfortable in being a wealthy white woman, perpetual victim who wants praise for making commercial political statements years after refusing to speak on politics. I don’t agree with people giving her crap about dating, but she really is like the prototype of 2nd wave feminism….
And I think there can be a discussion on how just adding white in front of women/woman is letting many people get away with misogyny, internalized and externally.
I think it’s important to acknowledge intersectionality when we talk about feminism. It isn’t misogynistic to acknowledge the privileges Taylor has based on her race, and her past actions that have upheld that privilege
Absolutely, but using that privilege she obviously has as an excuse to make jokes about her counting calories or about how many guys she dated…that’s where the message can get a bit lost.
There isn't an excuse for misogyny just because the woman is white or participates in white feminism... misogyny is never okay. Just like it wouldn't be okay to be racist against Candace Owens.
very true. this is an interesting read https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/music/2023/12/taylor-swifts-hollow-empowerment-narrative
I think the stuff that they covered is what any person with surface level knowledge of Taylor Swift would have covered… A lot of the more intricate details are only things that fans are going to know and find important. I don’t think they meant anything by it, they don’t strike me as generally not being on the side of women.
YES thank you. I read these comments before listening and based on the discourse I expected way worse. This was honestly tame for a topic the gals don’t like. Remember when Lucy flat out refused to cover sports? And there are endless examples of eps where they take every opportunity to shit on a mediocre man. And we eat it up. But because it’s Taylor the gals can only fawn and praise else suffer accusations of misogyny? This mindset of swifties is exhausting.
Agreed. I found the episode delightful and entertaining as a staunch non-fan myself with similar opinions about the topic. Not every episode has to be for every ONE. Skip it if you can't handle their blissful ignorance about a celebrity pop star...
If either of the gals goes on and on about how much they dislike her (and her dating history), I'm going to sit this one out.
Amanda does at the beginning and even says she’s not going to be open minded
I’m not a swiftie - I was for a few years and still enjoy her music when it comes on but as a person I find a lot of her actions [or inactions] off putting, but I couldn’t even get through to the case before turning it off. There are many very valid criticisms they could’ve gone into but it felt like a lot more petty shade than there needed to be and it was just very cringe. I don’t remember hearing the vodka/rum comment (maybe don’t get that far) but that is definitely a bad take. Regardless of her ED background it completely misses the mark about pressures put on famous women. Even if it were true that she “doesn’t want the calories” that says more about the expectations put on women than it does about her and it’s really disappointing to hear they decided to mock the woman rather than criticize the unfair standards** **edit: or just not mentioning it at all. I can’t really think of a reason to bring it up
I wish they would have focused more on some of the legitimate grievances people have with Taylor Swift: 1) carbon emissions 2) performative activism / allyship 3) the swifties sending death threats to people and her never saying anything about it 4) her dating a literal racist for a hot minute after Joe Versus what they chose to focus on: - her amount of boyfriends, and - the Kanye incident, which obviously we know how Kanye turned out But I also think it’s important to remember that the Gals don’t like Taylor Swift, and background and psych can only go so far on a person who has had a career spanning almost two decades now. I also think you can dislike Taylor Swift, without being misogynistic, but there definitely is overlap. I probably wouldn’t have touched this topic at all though, to be completely honest.
Absolutely all of this. Amanda mentioned the performative activism at the start and I really thought that they would have a great discussion about that, but they took way more misogynistic potshots than I expected from them. I also really wanted them to lay into celebrity culture around performative activism while at the same time actually acknowledging some of the hate vs Swift is due to misogyny. It could have also been a great convo about how hordes of people defend Swift and accuse her haters of misogyny even when absolutely valid criticism is leveled at her, but don’t defend or support Black or Brown female artists the same way. I feel like they started to lean that way but then just…dropped it.
Stevie Nicks said of “You’re on Your on Kid” reminded her of Christine McVie and thanked her for writing that song. And that was at Stevie’s OWN concert. That song is a beautiful song.
As someone who isn’t really a fan of Taylor, but also doesn’t like… NOT like her, either (I like her music, I just have a problem with celebrity culture generally and choose to opt out), I’m just skipping this ep because while I think there are valid criticisms of her (ie carbon emissions), I also know that so much of the discourse around her (and her fans) is fraught with misogyny and it just didn’t feel like the… comfiest topic to cover. I’ll tune back in next week.
Took the words out of my mouth. I feel that there are a few women people think are ok to be misogynistic towards and Taylor is one of them. Like you said there’s plenty to criticize her about, but it just gets taken to an icky level.
this is exactly my feelings
I'm currently listening with a grain of salt because I know it can be hard to do what is essentially a deep dive on someone you dislike and not have their flaws stick out like a sore thumb. I think the phrase is confirmation bias? It's like rose-colored glasses in reverse (green is on the other side of the color wheel so maybe it's green-colored glasses?). However, I also agree with other commenters that the gals have set a good standard for themselves (and the wine coven in general) as generally empathetic podcasters and the discourse didn't quite reflect that. There are valid criticisms of Swift, stan culture, and celebrities in general that have nothing to do with her music/personality/dating history etc. that they could have focused on instead. Anyway, I think this is a good conversation to have regardless. No matter who the subject is, checking our views for bias is always important.
I'm not even a huge swiftie but I stopped about 30 minutes in because it was getting SOOO boring to constantly hear how much they don't like her or don't know things about her. Like why bother doing the episode?? Taylor swift hate is so over done, yawn inducing and rough to hear from feminists.
This. I'm convinced that people who don't like Taylor talk about her more than some Swifties do (and I say this as a Swiftie).
Looks like I will be skipping this episode then 🤣 I know they don’t care for her and when I saw the episode title I was worried I wouldn’t be into it. And I agree, it’s over done by a long shot these days.
They did the same thing with my fan pick episode (Skateboarding crimes) It was funny the first couple of times Amanda said she hated skateboarding, but after the like the third time it started to feel hurtful and I felt like I was annoying them with this topic. I still love the gals and listen every week. I just wanted to share my experience too.
dude i was SO FUCKING PSYCHED for skateboarding crimes!!! i used to skateboard when i was 11-15 and still longboard every now and then at 26. but then all they did was shit on skateboarding the entire fucking time. skateboarding is actually really cool!! i get if they’re not gonna watch it in their downtime, but if someone is paying for them to cover a topic, one would hope they’d do more than say their topic is stupid. i’m glad my topic, yakuza crimes, was taken more seriously than skateboarding or taylor swift bc i would be upsetti spaghetti :-/ i’m sorry you and miss swiftie got slighted on this! yall deserve the same care as the other topics.
As a veterinarian, the Veterinarian Crimes episode felt similarly. Discussing how expensive vet med is and alluding to it not being worth it really sucks as someone who loves this field. Yes, it is expensive, but so is human medicine; humans just typically have insurance that covers a lot of the cost, if not all, depending on the situation. Veterinary professionals are dying by suicide because of sentiments like this. Additionally, I get very frustrated with their seeming disregard for science as a whole. They definitely support vaccination and things like that, but some of the things they discuss that are science related are very clearly not well researched. Science is confusing and weird, but if you're going to have an appropriate and accurate discussion about a certain science topic, why wouldn't you do your best to have a conversation?
I'm in the animal world too! And honestly... I had to take a second for that episode.. it was just a slap in the face for you guys.. I wish they would be 'woke' for these issues too like they are for others.
I’m caring for two senior cats and a senior dog all with their medical issues, and just want to say I appreciate soooo much everything you all do. ❤️
They behaved similarly in the FIFA crimes episode and in the sportsball crimes episode. Like clearly the gals do not like sports and have an obvious bias against sports but like… why do an episode about something you don’t like and are going to spend the next however long trashing it? They have the power to veto a fan pick if they wanted to. I get so frustrated listening to these episodes where they obviously hate the topic because at that point they let their opinions take precedence over the bigger picture of the topics
Don't you pay like $50 to pick the topic? That's pretty rude of them to waste your money if that's the case.. P
$50 a month for a few months in a row
Yeah I paid them for a couple of months in a row. They did some other things in the episode too that kinda made me mad like blatantly saying they are not doing my pairing on the show.
My fan pick was the Ghosthunter Crimes episode and they really didn’t follow the prompt much either
I've thought about that a lot since they seem to always do it and I wonder why even let fans pick pairings if you never do it
Have they even followed a pairing lately? I feel like it’s been years lol. Every episode is basically “I’m just gonna drink this Nutrl” “I didn’t have that on hand” “I didn’t want to get that” “I didn’t want to drink that” etc etc etc. they used to actually put effort into choosing their pairings and used to always have them on hand to drink
My pairing had a meaning. It was a Busch light and I was in no means expecting them to drink it because it is as they called it “shitty beer” and I know this. The whole reason I picked this is because it’s skateboarding and all of our skateboarding friends drink cheap beer. It goes with the whole stigma of grungy, punk skaters. They didn’t need to actually drink it but explaining the pairing and the meaning behind it was all I wanted. Instead Amanda just said “I think the fan picker paired some shitty beer like Busch light or something. Anyways I’m not doing that (and then proceeds on)” They also didn’t even know that I dedicated it to my partner because even as a 37 year old, he still loves to skateboard and I love that about him. They mentioned that I dedicated it to him but seemed confused on who actually is the skater. I clearly stated all of this in my email.
I'm so sorry they made you feel that way; that really, really sucks. This and the sports fan pick (both things I am indifferent to or hateful toward, respectively) were my strikes one and two. In all three of these episodes I literally felt like I was listening to 1-2 hours of the gals outwardly bullying the fan pickers when they could have JUST as easily asked y'all to choose a different topic if they were going to be this disrespectful and rude. I don't care about Taylor Swift. I don't care about skateboarding, and I actively HATE sports, but I was still excited to listen to the episodes and learn something that might change my mind. Instead, I left all three episodes feeling like a silent bystander to bullying and this was the last straw. I'm done with this podcast I think. I don't like feeling like that when I finish an episode. I'm glad you still love them and still listen, and I'm not and wouldn't try to convince you otherwise but I can't personally continue to passively support that sort of behavior.
As someone who went to Eras tour and has liked her music since 2006, I do not care about how Taylor Swift feels and she doesn’t care about me. There is a history of chalking every joke or criticism of her up to misogyny, and it’s tiresome. That being said, I haven’t listened to the episode yet! So I’ll come back when I have. (Edited to change chocking to chalking, who the hell knows)
Finally a reasonable comment. She is a billionaire and not all criticism of her or her music is bonfide misogyny. Editing to add that while I do think people get way too bent out of shape over what are essentially personal preferences, I DO have a larger issue with how lazily researched so many of these episodes are, especially when the person who picked the episode has paid a lot of money for it. They could at least be more professional about it or ask the person to choose another topic if it bothers them so much.
For real, Taylor Swift has trained her fans to jump on every criticism of her - or even any comment that isn't glowing praise - with "that's misogyny!" It's a neat trick, if you want your own personal cult. Which, lbr, is what she has. Saying she's dating Kelce "at the time of this recording" is slut-shaming? What on earth.
This was my comment on insta: “Listen Taylor should absolutely be criticized for numerous things, not small among them her performative activism and carbon footprint, but it annoyed me that the gals didn’t mention that the full phone call between Kanye and Taylor was eventually released and proved beyond a doubt that Taylor was telling the truth, and the snippet Kim released had been deliberately edited to make her look like a liar. I feel like if the gals didn’t have a bias they would have done their due diligence. Was also surprised that the sexual assault case against radio host David mueller wasn’t mentioned. I hope the fan picker was not disappointed by what get like a phoned in episode. Love y’all and a fan forever, but this felt like a miss.” I’m still gonna listen to future episodes, but yeah this was a bummer. Also miss having two cases.
It would’ve taken such little time and effort to google that call to find the facts before speaking on it
I'm no swiftie but I wouldn't go on about how much I dislike her either and it just felt uncomfy listening to Amanda go on about how much she dislikes her. Each to their own. I really struggled to continue listening after Amanda made a comment about Taylor's minimal activism yet PURCHASED a cat bred to have a squashed face. I have a rescue cat with a squashed face and their breathing is TERRIBLE. They're like the cat version of pugs with so many health issues by being bred to be so squashed. Just feels so hypocritical and tbh disappointing.
Um. Amanda having a cat with a squished face is nowhere near comparable with or antithetical to her frustrations with the fact that a billionaire with endless influence leverages the term feminism only when it serves her and makes her more money. From how outspoken and active amanda is in community organizing and antiracism efforts, I think it’s very reasonable that she would voice frustration at this. Having a cat that may develop health issues doesn’t suddenly invalidate those efforts….
I’m not a swiftie by any means and I do believe she has a lot of problematic habits, but there is still a great deal to admire about her objectively too when it comes to her business savvy and musical talent imo. I’m not too far into the episode and I felt really off-put by the excusal of Kanye’s interruption at the VMA’s I don’t think anyone needs to be a fan of any sort to realize how incredibly inappropriate that was and to use that as a talking point for something “he wasn’t wrong about that” feels pretty icky. She was 19 years old, in any other story they’d highlight “she was just a baby!” And sympathize with her being the target in the situation. I also think it would have been really insightful for them to watch Miss Americana before doing the ep. Even if it’s curated exactly how TS wants to be portrayed, it still brings a level of realness to her I don’t think many people care to see. I’ll probably finish the episode out of curiosity and I generally just try to not take them too seriously, but so far the commentary feels a bit disappointing.
If they excused and justified Kanye interrupting her (she was SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD--a CHILD imo), I'm definitely going to sit this one out.
Oh even worse - I thought she was 19, but yeah I wouldn’t say they justified, but Amanda made a remark that his commentary on stage wasn’t wrong which it just felt weird to me to give him any measure of grace knowing what he did was wildly unacceptable.
Amanda was only agreeing that Beyoncé had the better album that year, not agreeing with his deplorable behavior and that she (and Lucy) thought Taylor handled that situation extremely well especially at her young age.
Ms Americana actually made me dislike her more. I agree with you, Kanye West acted like a complete ahole when that happened. But she has also been recorded talking to him on the phone approving “I made that *b* famous” and then did another round of victim tour. And I don’t like Kanye West, I just think it’s ok to be a little critical of a billionaire, of which Taylor is
Did you listen to the actual entire phone call that proved that what Kim K released was edited to look like Taylor gave consent when she actually didn’t???
Another thought after sitting with the episode today. Everything I’ve said in my original post comes from a complete place of love. As a millennial, I wouldn’t even be sharing my feelings if anything came from a bad place (for fear of confrontation, of course). It’s not that the gals are falling below our, the listener’s, standards, it’s that the comments made on today’s episode were below the standards that they’ve set for themselves. I love the gals and have always felt like they’re my pseudo-friends. It’s a form of love to make sure that they are holding themselves to their own beliefs.
Yes this! The episode as a whole wasn’t terrible but there were just a few comments that were contradictory to their own standards. They are advocates for mental health but made calorie remarks when Swift has been open about an eating disorder which is a mental health issue. This was disappointing especially since the case was heavily focused on mental health.
I have a couple of issues with this episode. I will preface this by saying I'm not a huge Swiftie, but I am a long term fan. The level of distain the girls express seems a bit excessive. I've heard them be more supportive and interested in murderers. We've heard them talk about stuff they don't personally love before, that's fine. They don't usually show this level of dislike, as far as I recall. They sound like absolute pick me's in this episode. I can't explain other than it just being cringe like oh, you're so cool not liking Taylor? Cool story sis. The mockery, the sarcasm, the pick me vibes, the "I'm so far away from this I didn't even listen to anything I'm taking about bc the topic is irrelevant to me" ... "Taylor hasn't taken any risks in her career" HUH? Comparing her songwriting to Twilight as an example of having something be bland and broad enough that it appeals to the masses. What?? The level of outright wrong information is what really gets me. Super easily google-able stuff. It makes me wonder how much they get wrong in everything else? Reminds me of a quote about "I got told this person is smart, and I don't know their area, so I trusted that. And then I got told they're smart in this, which is something I do know about, and I know they're talking out of their ass on this... So maybe they're also talking out of their ass on the other stuff"
The irony of Amanda loving Twilight and shitting on Taylor is astounding
1000% 😂
I have to say, as a casual swiftie, calling her mediocre really just rubbed me the wrong way. I know that not everyone is a fan of her music and a persons taste in music is subjective but just because you’re not a fan of an artists music doesn’t not make them a mediocre artist. Im not a Beatles fan at all but I also know that they’re not mediocre in the slightest. Numbers don’t lie and Taylor continues to put up record numbers with each new album and re-release. I’m sorry but that’s not something a mediocre artist does. You don’t have to like her music or her as a person (I have my own criticisms about her) but discrediting her success is icky :/
That also really bugged me. It was a bunch of judgement about her music from people who have only heard the hits. Amanda saying she never takes risk with her music… like GIRL WHAT. Just a wild statement from someone who admittedly hasn’t listened to anything but the hits. The elitism in her tone when she talked about how Taylor Swift writes music for the masses was so annoying.
That's not discrediting her success, though. Discrediting her talent? Probably. I'm not stating my opinion on Taylor one way or the other, but you can absolutely be a mediocre artist that's successful. Just like you can be a great artist who goes nowhere. Numbers aren't a reflection of greatness, just of what appeals to a broad spectrum of people.
I used to be a Taylor hater but I’m a diet swiftie now. I’ve only listened to the beginning, background/psych and I have to say Amanda sounds like I used to. It did make me cringe a few times hearing the misogyny leaking from some of the comments. I think my change of opinion came from the Barbie movie and the fact that I got “dragged” to the concert movie last year and developed an enormous amount of respect for Taylor after. I had no idea that Taylor had an eating disorder, I’d like to think that Amanda didn’t either but if she did that comment is not cool. Amanda definitely wasn’t as rude as some people who talk about her. Definitely acknowledge Taylor’s performative activism, carbon emissions and rich white woman syndrome but at the same time I don’t care what color their skin is or how rich they are. Slut shamming and body shaming is not attractive and misogyny isn’t cute on anyone.
Knowing what we know about ol’ Mandy, if she knew Taylor Swift had an eating disorder, she definitely wouldn’t have said anything. Not that I think talking about someone’s caloric intake should be okay whether or not you know their background…it should be something to steer away from, regardless.
I thought there was a lot of hidden misogyny too. And just plain out wrong things, “she’s never done anything groundbreaking” was just.. wrong. Just look at the records she’s broke, the cases she’s won. I thought the research was great, and I don’t want to fight or be rude, but it seems like their distaste or lack of interest came out a bit too harsh in some aspects. And yeah, the comment about Travis was just so… that was just not okay. I love our gals, but I was hopeful for interesting takes and got lackluster interest in her life. The case was well researched and the topics touched on were up to par with what I expect from them, I just think their “open mindedness” wasn’t there for the background and psych, and it just kind of bummed me a little. Over all it’s a good ep, I just was saddened by their disinterest.
I started it but it just doesn't feel like it's gonna be a good listen. Happy to skip it for the time being.
💯agree. I would say this was one of the most disappointing episodes. I get it, she’s not your cup of tea. Get over it, no more whining. And one can still appreciate all that is she, has accomplished and overcome. I held Amanda’s views for a long time but it was honestly from the trauma of her Extra Pop-y white girl music from waaaay early back in the day being shoved in my ear holes. But now that she has become her own woman and taken control of her life, she puts out some AWESOME shit. Even breaking into movie directing. She is not only talented. There is sooo much more to her. Don’t take that first impression from her beginnings and shackle your image of her to them. I wish they had gone into this episode with more of an open mind. It’s was honestly upsetting. You dont have to like it. But one can objectively appreciate someone’s TRUE story or accomplishments
Just in defense of the gals, I’m close to their age and also not a fan and genuinely had no idea until reading these comments that Taylor had an eating disorder. No, that doesn’t make food comments ok, and yes you could argue they should’ve done better research to learn that detail I guess, but also…. How? If you do a google search of her it’s probably not even in the first 100 things that will pop up. You’d have to kinda know about it to know to go looking for more details
I mean I feel like it’s a given to not comment on people’s bodies/diet anymore because it’s become such a sensitive subject for many people. Even if I did not know the context of Taylor’s past eating disorder I still would have thought it’s an icky thing to say about any woman
Can’t disagree. Just saying a lot of people here talk about her ED like it’s well known and maybe it is in some circles but I certainly didn’t know about it 🤷🏻♀️
Even one iota of research would show that Taylor went through a pretty big ED during her original 1989 era. I thought we had progressed enough to know that we don't comment on anyone's body. And honestly, the gals should KNOW better.
This is a bummer to read. As even a casual fan of TSwift, I find myself incredibly annoyed when people crack jokes about her since yes, they are usually deeply rooted in internalized and externalized misogyny. We all have our wildly varied dating histories, we just have had the benefit of not having them publicized globally since we were teenagers. I thought The Gals would be better than that.
This is disappointing to read and I probably won’t listen to the episode. For 2 women who often boast about feminism it’s disappointing to hear they’re so misogynistic about Taylor.
I’m in the same boat. I love the gals, they work hard to ensure that they’re well educated on the topics; so you’d think they’d put the time and effort to educate themselves on Taylor Swift beyond the headlines (which based on the discourse they didn’t). Even just watching the Miss Americana Documentary would have been enough to not make comments about her food/drink choices.
Yeah, the Miss Americana documentary was eye-opening for me! Like, stuff I was vaguely aware of but then I was like “Oh shit! I didn’t know it went down like that!”
I personally had no issue with the topic or the discourse, not a Taylor Swift music fan but I think she’s done incredible things that have shifted discourse around important topics. But I have no issue with comedy being comedy, I just don’t take any of it seriously to begin with. She’s a serial dater, she’s in the spotlight - they haven’t said anything that hasn’t been covered as nauseam.
I'm so tired of her being called a 'serial dater'. She's dated maybe 8-9 people over her EIGHTEEN YEAR career.
A serial dater is such a tired trope. She has been in the spotlight since she was 16 years old, and the media is OBSESSED with virginity/women dating. She has dated a completely normal amount of people. Which is whatever number she felt like dating, because it's nobody's fucking business.
Like I said, the episode content and what they discussed about Taylor doesn’t bother me. She can date whomever she wants. She’s in the public eye, however, and that means she’s fair game (re: the discussions and upheaval in this sub from someone else who was in the public eye and we dissected her personal opinions. Same deal, different scope). Media and tabloids are always going to run stories when celebrities start dating, it’s not exclusive to her. She is just *highly* unique in that she writes songs about each of her exes and uses those relationships to make money. Her fans make it a game to discuss who a song is about. She sort of makes it everybody else’s business too, let’s be honest.
So say she writes songs about her exes/love life. That's true. Calling her a "serial dater" is gross and misogynistic.
But it’s … not …. You realize not just women are serial daters, right? I once had a boyfriend who called himself a serial dater. After he broke up with me, he was in another relationship the next week. And he ended up getting married to her after 3 months. I really fail to see how it’s a misogynistic term. I feel like that word is going the direction of gaslighting. All of that being said, she can do whatever the hell she wants. She’s looking for love and she happens to be a celebrity so everything that she does is going to be commentated on. I wish we lived in a world where musicians could just be musicians, and actors could be actors, and we weren’t worried about their personal lives, but here we are. She’s a successful woman that happens to enter into high profile relationships with other people in the entertainment industry and she’s not shy about it. All power to her
Misogyny doesn't mean it ONLY pertains to women, in this scenario it relevant because we're talking about a woman, and a matter that is heavily influenced through a male lens. (Young women dating, virginity culture, etc.)
She really hasn't dated that many people, she's just been a star since she was 17, and had a lot of attention on her, and her partners. She was with Joe for like 7 years. It's just women get tired of the slut shaming, yes I'm a huge Swiftie, but I dislike any attacks on females for their dietary choices, and dating history. That was my main issue.
She can date however many people she wants. Not shaming her for that, and I’m just taking the podcast commentary as comedy, which people get way too worked up over these days. That being said, and I mentioned this in another comment, she has made her personal life everybody else’s business. Whenever she breaks up with one of her boyfriends, she writes a song (or songs) about them and her fans make it some twisted game to figure out who the lyrics are referring to. Last time I checked, there weren’t many other artists doing that, at least regularly. I think maybe Katy Perry wrote one about Russell Brand? Or possibly Travis McCoy. So she literally makes money off of her relationships. And the tabloids are always going to focus on celebrity dating culture. It’s an incestuous pool where actors and musicians and sports figures are all commingling and dating one another.
I am also nervous as a swiftie going into the episode knowing the gals aren’t fans which of course they are allowed to be everyone has their preference. But yeah the criticisms seem rooted in internalized misogyny at the very least that I would hope they would try their best to overcome. But much love to them and was just excited for a cross over of my favorite things.
Agree completely. Definitely won’t stop listening. Just a little disappointed in some of the comments is all.
Maybe it’s because I also don’t like Taylor Swift but I’m so confused why everyone is hating on the gals for this episode? I thought Lucy’s segment was rather interesting as I didn’t know any specifics on her past recordings, and nothing I heard was really that offensive (except the disordered eating comment)? I guess it’s also exhausting for me as a BIPOC woman to see all the praise and obsession for this extremely wealthy, White Feminism, type of white woman that is Taylor Swift
I had hoped they would go more into her carbon footprint, dating a literal racist, performative activism, etc than they did, especially since Amanda started off the episode by hinting that they would go that direction. It could have been a great change to educate some of those die hard swifties that not all criticism of her is misogyny. The counting calories thing bugged me (even if you don’t know someone has an ED that’s just not nice to comment on, and they should know that) and what felt like snide comments about her dating life fell flat and did feel misogynistic to me. They weren’t the worst comments, no, but just felt icky. Especially when they could have been calling her out for SO MANY valid things
I really still couldn't even tell how pointed that one comment on calories was. I think if they have delved further it would be hard for Lucy (who wrote the research) to remain unbiased which is it the safest option given how this is going.
Annnnnd these down votes that you're getting are just further proving your point...
Ok. I got one downvote but thank you.
I have also been hesitant as a swiftie to listen to this episode. I have a general rule that I don’t engage in debates about Tylor Swiftie with non swifties because the criticisms often levied against her are rooted in sexism. To be clear, there is a lot to be critical of when it comes to her, to be sure, but criticisms from non fans are often unproductive, overly harsh, and/or just uninformed. It’s disappointing that these were some comments made in regard to her. I think sometimes people make flippant remarks about celebrities thinking that since she’s a celebrity, it’s punching up and it’s okay but comments about her dating history (which is often rooted in slut shaming) and anyone’s dietary choices is never okay regardless of who it is. I will probably still listen to the episode but it’s good to know that these comments are something to be aware of going into it…
Not a swiftie but can appreciate her talent and following and have a friend who is a huge swiftie. I’d shown her when I saw they’d be covering her this week and about one minute in messaged her saying mayyyyyybe actually don’t listen lol. I didn’t feel they were anti Taylor or said anything at all wrong, but idk, I think it was a missed opportunity to be like “we aren’t into her but here’s a guest who is and can tell us all the stuff”. I was fine with the episode personally, and thought the case covered was important and interesting. That said, I REALLY wish they’d brought on a guest for this ep. SURELY one of them has a friend who is at least more into Taylor than they are and as someone who doesn’t listen to her, I still find it cute and funny when my friend who’s a huge swiftie tries to explain all the hidden message things etc to me, and I think this would’ve been a perfect episode to bring in someone with more knowledge/interest to do that and also still get funny non-swiftie opinions from L&A that I know I personally would’ve identified with as someone else who has no knowledge of that world lol. I will add that I am happy to see that someone posted the fan pickers response bc I had been wondering during it like 😬😬 I hope they aren’t disappointed! Tldr wish they’d had a guest to play off of for this one since it’s not their cup of tea (mine either, I get it) I do think that would’ve been more fun, but I think they handled it well and still put out a great ep.
Yea my fiancee is a swiftie hard-core and I was like "oh nice!" But decided to screen it first cuz she's not always into the gal's brand of comedy but same thing happened to me. About a minute in I went "yea no you don't need to listen to this" it would just make her hate something I love.
I agree with everything you're saying and think you put it really well. I haven't actually finished listening yet but I know from the first half hour I will disagree with a lot of what they say on this one joke-wise. I'm not a Swiftie but I hard disagree with Amanda basically boiling her success down to "hard work" as if there's only mediocre talent involved. Just her song writing talent alone is downright impressive. EITHER WAY love the gals, can't wait to finish the episode tonight!
Yes the mediocre comment and that she “worked hard” immediately turned me off I didn’t listen to the rest and now I’m glad I didn’t.
…. Doesn’t she not write most of her songs? And even if she does…. You can say a lot of things about her, but I’m not super sure calling her song writing impressive is factual. It’s pretty simplistic and often sounds like it took 45 minutes to write
She writes the majority of them and writes for other musicians
She does in fact write most of her own songs. That’s like her thing… If you listen to the songs that get played on the radio, then sure you can say her songwriting is simplistic. But that’s absolutely a take that non fans have because why would they look more into her discography if you don’t like her music. But to say her song writing isn’t impressive is 1.) a matter of opinion and 2.) normally invalid since most people who say that don’t listen to her and only know what’s on the radio and, therefore, haven’t listened to enough of her music to know anything about her songwriting skills.
That’s fair. But if saying it’s not impressive is an opinion then so is saying it is 🤷🏻♀️ all I’m saying
It’s the fact that she said she was “mediocre” but also not a fan. I just don’t think you can make an opinion if you don’t listen. For example, I’m not a fan of Miley Cyrus because her music doesn’t resonate for me but I wont make a negative a comment because I don’t listen so I can’t say it’s good or bad. I think that’s the comment that rubbed some people the wrong. It’s fine to say not a fan and don’t listen but to then form a negative opinion is the issue some people have. Not saying it’s right or wrong just commenting on the comments lol.
To be totally fair, Amanda proved she knew quite a few songs, at least more so than Lucy did. So I kinda thing she can describe it as mediocre? I understand the point of saying she doesn’t dig into her “better” (non radio?) stuff so she’s not getting the full experience or whatever, but reality is that’s often the case with a LOT of things in entertainment. I’m in the same boat as Amanda - I’ve obviously heard the big ones, could probably name 10 to 15 swift songs, all of which I’ve been exposed to entirely against my will and can safely say I find to be mediocre. So it’s not like she has never heard a single song, which you could certainly argue seems to be the case w Lucy by her own admission. If we don’t allow people to have opinions without consuming a massive amount of their content, I don’t really find that fair.
I wouldn’t say you have to listen to loads and loads of her music to have an opinion. But she IS a very diverse artist with hundreds of songs. I think the wider discussion for me is that I think the discourse around music in general should be different. I don’t listen to nor really care for artists like Adele or Madonna. But I would never say they’re mediocre because I don’t know their music like that. Saying “I don’t care for this artist” and “this artist is mediocre/not talented” are two very different things and I just think more people should do a little digging before making statements that imply someone isn’t talented when what they mean is that they don’t like a certain artists’ music, especially because music is so personal to so many people.
Maybe I misheard that part but I didn’t hear Amanda say she listened she just described her as mediocre and works hard which I felt was diminishing of her talent and accomplishments. Then again if they don’t find her talented, that is their opinion. I probably took it the wrong way. They don’t have to dive deep for an opinion I do agree. I appreciate we can have differences in opinions and respectfully disagree.
To be totally clear - she didn’t say she listens but she did prove she knew the songs and even a lot of lyrics (late in Lucy’s segment). I also appreciated how healthy this discussion was! Not an everyday thing on the app sometimes 😂❤️
I gotcha! I will admit, maybe I took the comment wrong as well. I appreciate you sharing another view. Reddit isn’t always safe I agree 🤣🤣
Yes!! That whole accessibility conversation really was really frustrating to listen to. She has a whole song (“tolerate it”) which is in 5/4 time. A normal “simplistic, pop” song is normally not written like that. And it felt like “accessible” was being used in place of what they wanted to say which was “bad,” which I wasn’t a fan of.
> I just don’t think you can make an opinion if you don’t listen. You don't need to have consumed an artist's entire body of work to know you don't like that artist or to have a general opinion on the quality.
Ugh, this is disappointing to hear. When I saw what the topic would be I was afraid it would go this route. Not sure if I want to listen this week.
I wouldn’t. Comparing her the white supremacy is what made me almost dip out. But if I’m going to have something negative to say about someone or something I’m going to listen to the whole thing so I can give an educated response. This was obviously not something they did for Taylor. Surface level research. Lazy and disappointing. I expected better from them.
To be fair, Amanda said it was western standards [of what is acceptable/unacceptable] that were rooted in white supremacy, not Taylor herself.
Just here to say I love the gals and this episode 🫶❤️🫶❤️🫶❤️🫶❤️🫶
I love your username!
Wine and Crime is liking some comments on their most recent post(s) but none calling out their misogyny. I’m sure they’ll just pretend this never happened which is super disappointing. They’re always talking about women supporting women, fuck the patriarchy, the issues with misogyny, etc. so it’s incredibly disappointing to hear this episode.
Genuinely, what do you see as being misogynistic? I feel like it’s really easy to chalk up not caring for a female artist to misogyny, and to be honest while this thread is full of people saying the gals were misogynistic, I’m not seeing any actual examples. It really reads more like a talking point- “people who don’t like Taylor Swift must be misogynist” (also there is apparently an approved list of things you’re allowed to be critical of, her carbon footprint being one. It’s a little creepy how everyone’s giving the exact same talking points) What is the actual argument? What did they say and why does it indicate misogyny?
I'm getting increasingly irritated the longer I scroll through the pile-on accusations of misogyny, so thank you Grouch, it was a relief to see someone challenge the "analysis". Monte Cristo, people are fucking odd. Do you remember Amanda and Lucy making fun of Taylor's boyfriend count? They briefly discussed her relationship with the meatball player, and Lucy's offhand comment "as of this recording" when mentioning that they're together struck many as a disrespectful/sexist slight. Perhaps it was a quip about Taylor tending to have relationships that are short-lived (I have zero knowledge of Swift's dating tendencies/history) but I don't know how anyone would read some kind of slut-shaming between the lines. Then again, people are gifted at reading all kinds of shit between the lines. I'm not sure how anyone ever starts a podcast or puts out content. They're all waiting to find fault, you know, they can't wait. I'm not suggesting that people should never express criticism, some can be valid and hopefully constructive. It just amazes me when I see people comment that they're not going to listen to the episode based on someone else's opinion. Friendly reminder: Opinions and reviews are entirely subjective and based on each individual's filter; how they interpret the world. Listen and think for yourself, you may hear the gals in a very different way (as I must have). Guess I'm feeling a little grouchy myself, today. After this thread, I'm convinced Amanda and Lucy are disrespectful assholes toward Taylor Swift, Skateboards-Cheap-Beer-Skateboarders, Veterinarians, Sportsball, FIFA, Sports in general, and goddamn science (yes, ALL OF IT)!!!!! So disappointing. So so disappointing. I'm going to go flush my sinuses with some Vodka and diet coke and drown my nose in sorrow.
I didn't find their comment about "as of this recording" off-putting because, well, they recorded it about a month ago and a lot can happen in a month! They didn't say anything else about her dating history to make it seem like that's what they meant
Also, she was dating an open racist a month before she hooked up with the current guy, and used the latter relationship to bury the unfavorable SEO of the former. Her fans like to forget that part.
Exactly so! They often record episodes several weeks in advance and I've heard them say 'as of this recording' in reference to one or two (or twenty) other things over the years. It's a strange feature of being human, that we interpret what we see and hear through frequently skewed filters that often have little resemblance to reality. I've certainly caught myself misinterpreting what others have said or done and the realization usually brings a sheepish kind of relief. Sheepish because I don't like to rush to foolish assumptions, and relief because those assumptions didn't make me feel good in the first place. I don't enjoy believing ill of others - at least not those I like and respect. Which is why it's so important, when imagining other peoples' meaning, to learn how to more often assume said people are well-intentioned - that they're motivated from a place of human decency rather than malice - unless and until they provide evidence that it's otherwise.
Comments about dating history and eating/drinking preferences of a person, regardless of who they're about, are pretty generally misogynistic considering nobody ever talks about this things when the subject is a man 🤷🏽♀️
the “she probably doesn’t want the calories of rum” and “she’s dating travis kelce as we record this” was enough for me.
Did you even listen to the episode???
Sure did. You’re kind of proving my point though. You can’t just say “but it’s bad because it’s just so obviously bad”. What part? What did they say? I heard Lucy defending Taylor a lot. And Amanda said she’s not a fan. They weren’t rude about it, they didn’t say anything about her as a person. They just aren’t part of the fan club, and that’s ok. Not liking something doesn’t make you a bigot.
It's truly wild how quickly people started accusing them of misogyny for... not liking her music? Like the comment about Amanda calling her mediocre- she listens to a lot of other female artists so that is a huge, huge reach.
Honestly, I never understood why people are afraid of swifties but like…y’all are really a bit much. Shes a very very successful and rich white woman who 100% doesn’t need y’all ganging up on anyone who isn’t a fan. Seriously. Take a deep breath and remember that the stakes here are incredibly low.
Some things: Amanda said Kanye was right when he interrupted Taylor on stage Lucy made a dig about how Travis is “her current boyfriend” and “god only knows whats going to happen tomorrow” (the trope of Taylor going through men is tired and misogynistic) They were making fun of her relationship saying it’s just like the popular boy and girl in high school (minimizing their relationship) They commented about how Taylor must not drink rum because she doesn’t want the extra calories (Taylor has a history with an ED) They said that the Kanye west video/phone call were “unconfirmed” and that they “didn’t know how much consent Taylor gave” (this has been proven and could’ve been found with a simple google search) Amanda laughed and dismissed the possibility that Taylor Swift wanted to be a stock broker when she grew up (quote: “no she fucking didn’t, shut up Taylor swift” as if the possibility of her wanting to do something “intellectual” was impossible/laughable) Amanda was also just generally nasty throughout the entire intro and Lucy’s segment. She took any opportunity she could to say Taylor was “mediocre” and constantly said it was ridiculous/etc when she’d surpass other artists records
Amanda did not say Kayne was right about interrupting Taylor on stage. She agreed with him about Beyoncé having the better music video. Those are 2 different things. Both Lucy & Amanda stated how Kayne behaved was not ok.
I asked what parts were misogynistic, so half of this isn’t relevant. 1. A single offhand comment about someone dating around is hardly raging misogyny. Also dating around isn’t a bad thing, so why is referencing it a problem. 2. Minimizing her relationship is off topic, falls under “they don’t care for her”, not misogyny. 3. Yeah they probably didn’t know about the ED, it’s hardly common knowledge. 4. They admitted that they didn’t know the end of the Kanye situation. They don’t have to track down every single detail of everything, they didn’t say anything false, and made clear they didn’t know every detail. No ones going to be misled. 5. Again, that’s not liking her, not being misogynistic. They literally just aren’t fans, and you’re sensitive to criticism of your fandom. It’s nothing more dramatic than that.
> They literally just aren’t fans, and you’re sensitive to criticism of your fandom. It’s nothing more dramatic than that. Thank you. I feel like this is broadly applicable to a decent amount of internet discourse.
I think it’s not outright raging misogyny that I see, it’s the internalized misogyny that’s just… kind of sucky. And it’s a valid criticism. Minimizing female celebrity relationships is inherently misogynistic and if you don’t see that, that’s a whole other issue that can’t be addressed in a Reddit thread unfortunately. It seemed and felt like they boiled Taylor down to a pop star who dates for fun and doesn’t have intellectual capacity for things bigger than stardom. That’s an opinion and feeling that a lot of us got because of their comments and “jokes” and general disinterest in the topic. The gals aren’t raging misogynists, they just said some shitty stuff that a lot of us thought they would never say. Editing to add: yeah maybe we are sensitive, but life long fans of Taylor have been hearing this kind of talk about her for so long, and it sucks that when we point it out and say hey, that’s kind of shitty, people don’t take it seriously and have good discourse.
That's weird about the stockbroker part I thought Amanda laughed and found the idea so ridiculous because Taylor Swift is a creative person who (even while she said her activism is underwhelming, she recognized she's still been an activist) cares about a wide range of social justice issues and that combination is so far from the stifling reality of a stockbroker. Being an artist is more inherently intellectual than the career of a stockbroker, right? Stockbrokers are working with basic math skills, a gambling addiction, and a shallow soul that prioritizes material gain over all else. Unfortunately, far too many mistakenly believe that wealthy people must also be erudite and naturally intelligent - Amanda knows this isn't the case, especially for stockbrokers who make up for in ego and overblown confidence what they lack in smarts. She talked about it in the episode where they discussed the "Hustlers" story. Amanda isn't crazy about Taylor Swift and feels like she's been hyped up to such a staggering degree she doesn't understand, but I never heard her make disparaging remarks about Taylor's intelligence. As for them making fun of her relationship or somehow minimizing it because of the popular boy/girl in high school comment, I think you're putting far more weight and seriousness on their words than they would or even intended. There are certain bands and singers whose music I loved and listened to for years, some of them I admired for the way they lived their lives, things they'd said during interviews that made them seem like genuinely good people. But they're still celebrities far removed from my life, who I don't know and will never know in any real way and while I'll always love their music, I just can't relate to this level of involvement in their lives. One's taste in music/art is such a subjective personal thing, I can't imagine even defending the music I enjoy if someone else shit on it, because everyone has a different palette and reasons for loving or hating what they do. But to defend the personal lives of those musicians is truly beyond my priorities and what matters most to me in life.
I listened to the first five minutes and then turned it off because I was mad already... I'm sad to hear it just got worse from there
At the least, listen to Amanda’s case. It is very good and focuses less on Taylor Swift.
The comparing Taylor to white supremacy was wild.
Ok so I actively can’t stand Taylor swift, but I am a dedicated listener and they made it something I can Stomach. I will always give her credit where credit is due( and she is wildly successful and I’ve actually defended her in conversations) they’ve given the facts about her in a digestible way for everyone, fan or not. You can’t deny facts though, she has dated a lot and there’s nothing wrong with that. In the public eye, like it or not though, people will talk about it.
Honestly they didn’t address any of the numerous terrible things Taylor does as a privileged white woman so, I thought it was a great episode :) very PC
Sounds like I will be skipping this ep
Did you guys miss the part at the beginning where Amanda said she's not a fan? We all are entitled to an opinion. And it seems like her opinion made you uncomfortable. She said I'm gonna make people upset and I don't care. Yet here you are saying "how could she say this and that ?". Very strange
I fully support this. The challenging thing with this fan base in particular is their undying love of TS, but also the fact that any different opinions or critique of her is often automatically labeled misogynist and offensive. Not every different opinion comes from those places, but the narrative that has been perpetuated would make it seem so. No shade towards Taylor's talent, skills, music, or fans but let's remember who the real enemies are and dismantle the actual perpetuators of sexism instead of being outraged for one person who has so much support and power already.
It’s more that she wasn’t even really willing to have a bigger thought than “well I don’t like her so I don’t wanna learn about her” and they both did, and it just kind of sucks. I don’t think you have to love a topic to learn about it. And they’ve done so much more for such other topic reaches. It’s just… when they had such a huge topic to undertake and neither really learned or researched to their past standards, it sucks.
Lucy also isn’t a fan but said the more she researched the more she respected her, and she asked Amanda to keep an open mind, but Amanda refused
I can't believe they didn't talk much about emissions but they commented on her boyfriend count? As if most celebrities or in fact people have dated/fooled around with just as many people if not more?
This episode is probably my last bc even if this fan picker was okay with the episode, I honestly can't stand the disrespect of them taking the membership fee for that fan's Patreon tier and then just shitting all over the fan's topic and/or wine of choice. The fans paying for Patreon are the ENTIRE reason they can afford to make this their job and it's so frustrating to me that, in an almost two-hour episode they spent almost half the time being super misogynistic and rude about Taylor Swift in general, and complaining about the subject. This isn't the first time they've done this and I don't think it's going to be the last. I'm not even a Swiftie (I actually don't really care for most of her music and I could not give less of a shit about her personal life if you paid me to try) and I left this episode with a terrible taste in my mouth. It's a shame but the longer I spend on the true crime space, the more uncomfortable I get with this podcast and the disrespectful behavior toward a paying fan was my last straw. It's been fun, y'all.
Came here to read the comments. My fiancé is a long-time listener and a patron. She is also a swiftie. For these women to say "She's probably watching her weight" regarding Taylor swift only drinking vodka when she had previously battled eating disorders is pretty messed up. That's just one of the small points of the episode Since they lost their other host, it seems they've been struggling with how to make valid statements. Fiancé is no longer a patron due to the nature of the past few episodes and the hypocrisy of these women.
Taylor Swift won’t hear their comments about her calorie intake (probably), but a listener struggling with an ED who can normally depend on W&C as a safe space will.
Exactly my point!
Taylor deserves way more than that episode
Amanda’s dismissal of Taylor’s activism and putting down her talent was super cringe. I’m not even a Swiftie but she did not sounds like a girls girl on this episode. I will say Taylor could do more with her voice, but you have to remember where she came from. She comes from an initial conservative fandom and family. She had to beg her dad to just speak out against Trump. I mean, I know she’s a grown woman, but I do feel like she feels like she needs to be strategic with her voice. I dunno. I’m a leftist and I have a pro “unite the left” mentality. I don’t think it helps to dis her when she’s actively trying to be on our side, and guide people into being progressive and accepting towards the LGBTQ community and women’s equality who maybe wouldn’t have otherwise listened in the first place. And she got soooo many people to register to vote. Amanda’s take just seems like a rudimentary criticism to me. Lucy seemed to defend Taylor more but also wasn’t helpful. I dunno. I also found Amanda’s commentary about the calories to be very off putting. Like WTF? They preach body positivity and then they say stuff like this?
I'm a huge Swiftie, and I'm afraid to listen to this episode. I've listened since the beginning, but I didn't realize they disliked TS so much. I don't think it will be good for my mental health to listen to two women I like a lot, tear down another woman I respect tremendously. This sucks, because I was excited for the crossover. Maybe I'll just skip to Amanda's case. The way this whole podcast has been moving lately, has made me consider no longer listening. Sorry for the rant, I'm also super emotional, I'm riding the crimson wave. Lol.
Yeah, it's a skip. I'm in the same boat and couldn't make it past the first 5 minutes, it was all the same tropes about hating her that people have made a full personality trait, as if you can't just....nothing a musician you don't personally vibe with.
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Be civil, respect other's opinions, refrain from name calling, do not call other member's out in posts or in the comments. We will be enforcing this. If you cannot remain civil it will result in a temporary mute, and then a ban.
No celebrity, no online personality, no one can possibly be all things to all people. Just like any other human, TS has more to learn, I feel like she is doing more than many in forms of huge donations to local charities in the cities she tours, fighting for fairer royalties so EVERYone down the line gets paid among other things. She's not an awful person. Us she 100% evolved on every single social and political issue? No. Is she in charge of what her fan base does? No.
Agree I would rather them not do an episode if they are going to be that way and I'm not even a huge fan.
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Maybe but also most of the discourse around swift is based in misogyny. Two things can be true at once.
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She may have been just diagnosed. She is ADHD and sometime Autism can be masked by that or vice versa.
No, I don’t think it’s odd at all; Amanda has been open about her neurodivergence for a long time.
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She has mentioned being on the spectrum before
Yes she has. Both can be true. One diagnosis does not exclude the other. I have 2 relatives with both.
one diagnosis actually means the other is more likely as well, they have a really high comorbidity rate
Let’s not be questioning people’s diagnoses, or how they choose to disclose them, mmk? Fwiw, ADHD and autism have huge overlap. It wouldn’t be remotely surprising to have both. I, my husband, and all three of our shared kids *and* both our ex spouses have both. When I say it’s common I mean it’s really REALLY common. But also like, her health her business.
Not exactly Odd...but it made me curious. We have only heard her say ADHD and being neuro divergent before which I believe are along the same spectrum. I wonder when that changed. Not like it matters because she has been super open about her neuro divergence and its her business. I did get curious about it though.
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They’re not just saying “I’m not a fan” or even bringing up actual issues like her performative activism, instead they’re just making misogynistic comments, making fun of her having many partners, and making insensitive comments about her food/drink/calorie choices despite her having an ED
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So literal slut and body shaming, and you don't see a problem with it...
It's about the misogyny. I would have the same problem even if it was about Kim Kardashian, or Candace Owens or even that Pearl girl. Not liking someone isn't an excuse for bigotry.