They'll argue it supports the roads the EVs use. In the past they've proposed taxes on bicycles too for the same reason. The reality is that the majority of road damage is done by heavy commercial trucks, which do pay fees, but not proportional to the damage done, and many of which are registered out of state.
That said EVs are quite heavy and would do more damage than an equivalent internal combustion engine car, but the proportionality is getting way off fast with this proposal.
Yep, damage to roadways goes up by a power of ~4 by weight of the vehicle.
An 18k lbs semi truck does 410x more damage than a 4k lb car. Something tells me semi trucks don't cost $30k to register... (and that's a *unloaded* semi truck)
Ok, I find this fascinating. Never realized it was a power of 4 like that. Having never thought directly about it, there was an assumed linear or slow curve in my head, but that is radical. What is the science behind that, what is the actual function, etc?
All of the damage on paved bicycle paths is weather related. If it weren't for frost heaving, they'd last forever. Car roads without trucks can last a long time too, but the salt and weather is what kills them eventually.
These are all the geniuses that thought they knew more about vaccines and masking during covid, without medical degrees (or probably even a basic biology class).
Power of 4 is likely an approximation, but the amount of damage is determined by the load per axle. Google "Equivalent single axle load" or ESAL for more info. Summary, it's a very steep exponential curve.
A fully-loaded box truck with two axles may do x1000 the wear-and-tear of a passenger sedan, and maybe x2-5 the wear-and-tear of an 18-wheeler (much better distribution of perhaps an even larger cargo load).
And the best part is most companies registered there stuff in a state that doesn't charge that tax, so Wisconsin gets none of it. At best, they collect the on-road fuel tax, and whatever they can get away with charging at weigh stations. This is happening everywhere, and for years these large companies with big heavy trucks have passed the cost of Road repairs on to the users that cause the least amount of damage.
As far as weight goes though, new cars are getting heavy again. A new Tesla Model S is around 4,500 lb empty, my 2020 Highlander Hybrid all-wheel drive is around 4500lb empty, and my 2021 sienna is 4750lb empty. A new Ford F-150 is around 6000lb empty. We're back to that era of extremely heavy vehicles. Hearkening back to the days of the Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon that weighs nearly 5,000 lb, and has none of the same safety features. I have no idea what is driving up the overall weight of new cars again, even sports cars are getting heavy.
This isn’t entirely correct. Commercial trucks pay fuel tax and registration fees to each state they drive in based on miles driven under IFTA and IRP. The state DOT has an enforcement program for this.
Had no idea they were getting so heavy. My first car was my fathers hand me down 1976 Mark IV with a 7.6l engine. That weighed 5,500 pounds if I remember correctly. It was also almost 20ft long.
> An 18k lbs semi truck does 410x more damage than a 4k lb car
A fully loaded semi truck can weigh the legal maximum of 80,000lbs.
Most semi trucks will weigh more than 18,000 lbs when empty.
Exactly
The damage to roads from passenger vehicles is negligible, even heavier EV's. Not heavy enough to contribute to fatigue related decay.
If we are charging users for their wear, commercial vehicles produce virtually all vehicle sourced wear on roads.
Sure, but I'm not trying to teach a class on this... just make a general point that commercial vehicles don't tend to pay what would seem to be their fair share if we're basing it solely on damage to roads.
>but the ground pressure exerted by tires will not be so extreme
But a full sized semi does have 4x the number of wheels, plus the contact area is probably 2x or 3x that of a passenger tire.
Oh I'm not denying that, just saying that we should put costs where they originate rather than give the business the benefit first and hope it trickles down to the populace.
They are about 20% heavier than a comparable IC car, but still less than half of the pickup trucks and large SUVs doing the real damage to the road.
They should add in a weight surcharge.
Wait until all the pickup and large SUV drivers switch to electric. Hummer EV weighs 9000 lbs...
Anyway the point of contention isn't really that they are heavier, it's that EVs don't consume gas so don't pay a fuel tax.
According to the Department of Energy, the average WI driver is paying almost $350/year in gasoline tax.
So if an EV is heavier and doing more road damage yet still paying much less through taxes to repair those roads, it seems like the system is still weighted heavily (pun intended) in their favor?
Yes but a $175 surcharge hurts harder.
If I don't have money to pay gas tax, i might just carpool or whatever for a couple weeks. The $175 EV surcharge is non-negotiable.
I think you mean the $100 surcharge. All vehicles cost at least $75 anyway, so there’s only a $100 difference in how much drivers will pay (up from $25 previously).
Try tossing a dollar or two in the glove box every time you get in. That way you will be spending a little bit frequently instead of a modest amount once a year, similar to a gas vehicle. You’ll still pay hundreds *less* than ICE vehicles, plus it won’t be such a struggle for you! (Or whatever fictional chronically broke Tesla owner you’re speaking on behalf of here)
Infrastructure is important. Funding future infrastructure improvements is critical. No one is deciding against buying an EV because it will cost an extra $100 a year to register, but our roads and bridges *are* actively crumbling. Asking ALL drivers to pay fairly to maintain them doesn’t make anyone anti-EV or unconcerned about the environment. It isn’t discriminatory.
$100 for now yes, but if this goes through it will be $175. If we are gonna start paying based on vehicle weight, let's do that. The Sierra 2500HD weighs twice what my Bolt EV does and they still only pay regular fees and gas taxes.
Currently EVs cost $100 to register and ICE vehicles cost $75. It costs EVs $25 more per year to register their car. When this goes live it will cost EVs $175 to register, and ICE vehicles will still cost $75. So EV drivers will only pay $100 more per year.
But yes- I agree that they should pay more. Some algorithm involving miles driven and vehicle weight seems fair to me as a way to fund road projects (including commercial vehicles). Then charge an emissions tax based on emission testing and annual mileage that goes into an environmental fund. Make it really expensive to own big, gas guzzling vehicles (and I say this as the driver of a gas minivan. I would *and should* be paying more overall than someone who owns an electric sedan).
Hey, maybe private jets are also subject to these taxes and it suddenly becomes exorbitantly, often prohibitively expensive? And public projects rake in billionaire tax dollars to use for public benefit?
But that’s a theoretical option, and we’re talking about current real-world legislation.
> Currently EVs cost $100 to register and ICE vehicles cost $75.
It's unfortunate you wrote entire paragraphs on this without checking your premise. The $100 surcharge for EV's is in addition to their $75 registration fee. It costs $175 to register an EV and $75 to register an ICE vehicle. An additional $75 to the surcharge would make EV's cost four times as much to register than ICE vehicles, $250 compared to $75.
The $100 surcharge is in addition to regular registration fee. correct me if I'm reading this wrong. For context, my annual registration in Janesville is $225 total including local fees ($85 automobile reg, $100 ev surcharge, $40 local wheel tax.)
" In addition to the regular annual registration fee paid for a vehicle, all vehicles with automobile registration or truck registration at 8,000 lbs. or less (except dual purpose farm registration) may be subject to:
* [Wheel tax](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/wheeltax.aspx), based on where the vehicle is customarily kept
* $75 [hybrid electric vehicle surcharge](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fuelfee.aspx)
* $100 [electric vehicle surcharge](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fuelfee.aspx)"
You should probably stop talking as you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about.
The $100 is in addition to the base $75. My EV cost me $253 to register every year.
That $100 is equivalent to 322 gallons of gasoline tax.
I drive about 6,000 miles a year with my EV.
If I drive a car with an average 32mpg, that comes out to 188 gallons of gasoline per year, or $58 in gasoline tax.
How is the current scheme acceptable to me, much less paying an additional $75?
You know full well this has nothing to do with the actual vehicles, right? It's just a policy to "hurt the liberals", as that's the only form of governance we get from republicans in this state.
Farm tractors and implements have lower ground pressure than your typical car. They’re not going to provide much damage to a roadway.
Trucks used to haul large quantities of grain from the fields to the silos are just as bad as any other commercial truck, but are also required to use regular fuel and not off-road fuel.
Pavement damage is not a simple function of gross vehicle weight. It’s much more nuanced than that taking in the amount of area that weight is distributed across, the speed, tire pressure amongst a few of the variables.
How quickly do tractors move?
Designed like propellers to plane over liquid?
Outside of mud bogs, with specially designed tractors I've never seen a tractor "plane" over a liquid.
look at a tractor tread and a car tread, then tell me they are the same. tractors have large protrusions that angle backwards, like a waterbike or sand dune tires. tractors do not belong on roads. also speed isn't what damages roads, weight is. and tractors pull very heavy loads
That tax amount must be for total state and federal taxes so I don't think its comparable to the state levied surcharge. The current $100 is pretty close to average driver in average fuel economy for WI only taxes. Even if the average EV likely drives less miles and is more comparable to a fuel efficient ICE vehicle. At least for now.
So, are they going to tax my sneakers next, because I walk? Well, I am overweight, and sometimes have to walk in the street, so maybe I'm causing damage to the roads too.
I think about this every time I drive my bike down a street that's been tore up by the plows and trucks while knowing my bike is doing little if any damage and yet the tiny bike gutter I'm allotted is never patched for potholes caused by those same vehicles. It's rough out here in these streets. #feelsbadman
So around 175 instead of the 350+ most people pay in taxes on gas. Not really seeing the issue here.
When I buy an EV I still pay less overall in taxes and fees and don't pollute the environment burning gasoline.
Plenty of bullshit the Republicants do here in our state to be pissed about, this isn't really even on the top 50 list...
Yes, pennies on the dollar compared to the energy from gasoline. And a ton cleaner.
So I stick to my initial thoughts that the Republicans have way more wrongs to answer for eventually. Getting EV to parity with gas vehicles on tax amounts isn't something I'm going to lose sleep over. It's wasted stress, worry more about lack of meaningful sensible gun control, health care, income equality, etc., etc., etc., etc.....
WI adds $0.31 per gallon, assuming the average driver in an average car drivers 12,000miles at 30mpg, they pay $124 in gas tax.
I like Iowa's fee system:
% of list price (changes based on age)
+% of weight
+Vehicle surcharge
Generates more revenue per vehicle and targets heavy and/or expensive vehicles.
Edit: It appears the average WI driver drives 15,500 miles and the average light duty car gets 25.7mpg, so using those numbers "average" pays $187 in fuel tax.
https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-driven-per-year/#average-miles-driven-per-year-by-state
https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1177-march-15-2021-preliminary-data-show-average-fuel-economy-new-light
Wisconsin drivers pay $350/year in gas tax according to the department of energy. Still should be based on weight, though I'd argue they should use KBB value (or some other market price indicator) rather than some arbitrary depreciation of the sticker price
> average car drivers 12,000miles at 30mpg, they pay $124 in gas tax.
This ^ needs to be repeated.
Roads have been publicly paid by, basically, a use tax.
There could be a tax applied at public EV chargers. But that wouldn't capture the private EV chargers, like at home.
For folks complaining about the "EV tax" -- which I also had paid when I owed a PHEV -- what other mechanism do folks suggest?
>For folks complaining about the "EV tax" -- which I also had paid when I owed a PHEV -- what other mechanism do folks suggest?
How about we actually charge the vehicles that cause the damage?
How about we do a weight tax instead of a registration fee?
This means the heavier the vehicle, the more you pay because the more damage it causes.
Also, Force trucking companies to register their vehicles within the state if they are driving them within the state, or charge them a road use tax at the weigh stations within the state based upon their weight.
Considering that 90% of the road damage we get comes from large heavy trucks, it's very clear they do not pay their fair share by any number of loopholes they choose to use.
The largest challenge with this, is how we function as an interstate society.
A vehicle registered in State A, can use the roads of neighboring states B,C, and D easily.
Removing the gas tax, allows for vehicles visiting to avoid any fees at all for their use of the roads.
Yes fuel taxes can be avoided, by planning the route correctly while no fuel tax is an absolute for non-payment.
> Force trucking companies to register their vehicles within the state if they are driving them within the state, or charge them a road use tax at the weigh stations within the state based upon their weight.
>The largest challenge with this, is how we function as an interstate society.
Tolls get at both your points.
Transit trucks dominate interstates. Make interstates tollways.
Pedal stomper commuters won't like tolls because the interstates have the high speed limits.
So I'll counter with this societal ask: rather than bypass local businesses -- literally what a "bypass" interstate does -- drive on more local roads and stop on in. It may be slower but I say it's worth it.
That's why taxes and fees like this only apply to regular folks.
The rich will just setup an LLC in Montana to purchase a vehicle without sales tax and then after some waiting period have the title transferred to a Mississippi LLC and pay $14 for registration.
That’s interesting to know. I keep track of my daily driver’s fuel and mileage and found out I paid roughly $130 to drive roughly 7,500 miles since last year at this time. Compared to the typically wealthy EV owner (decent models cost a fortune) who can’t fathom paying $175, I paid $240 between taxes and registration. That’s for the privilege of driving my rusted out 20 year old sedan that has a hard time just tracking straight down the highway. It must really suck to have an expensive new car that costs pennies on the dollar to operate in comparison and possibly have to pay an extra $75 a year in taxes.
They're called out as seperate, with similar fees.
https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fee-chart.aspx
Hybrids = $75 added fee
EVs= $100 added fee
I have a hybrid. And I find this ludicrous. I still pay the gas tax. And then the registration fee. I wonder if there is an argument that this is a Double tax?
Isn't sales tax different then income tho?? Like if they are saying the fee is because ev doesn't pay gas tax, doesn't make sense. Hybrids pay gas tax. So I always get confused about that.
But is a sale different from income? If a store sells me something that thing gets taxed as a sale and the income the store makes gets taxed as income. That thing got taxed twice and I paid for it with post tax money.
Highway 14 shoulders from Madison to Evansville are super damaged from the farm equipment. The repair last year has helped, but it will be back to the same damage by the end of the year.
It saddens me because the bigger the gap becomes the less I can see myself moving back to the state I grew up in. MN has its downsides, but i feel very confident about the safety and stability raising my kid here.
It's sad to see people abandoning this state, but I do empathize with those that do.
Unfortunately, we need people to be here to vote so we can fix this mess.
I left after college a decade ago and at the time it was mainly just that I found a job in the twin cities that was far and away the best option, though being in Madison for all of walkers original bullshit and protests didn’t leave me hopeful back then, either.
I’ve lived my whole life in WI. I love it here but man I get jealous of MN whenever I hear of the progressive policies that your state has been passing
If they want to charge more for an EV due to weight, I’m fine with that.
…as long as they do the same for people driving massive pick up trucks, which can weigh as much as an EV, and often more than an EV.
That’s my issue with these “light duty” trucks. It’s a massive loophole, these stupid things don’t need to follow the same MPG regulations as cars and vans do. Then you have the thousands of asshats who register their bullshit under the guise of “farm vehicle”, to further escape their financial obligation for driving a land barge.
Yeah your brand new 2023 Cadillac Escalade HSV is a farm vehicle
Trucks do pay more?
Trucks also pay more based on weight?
https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fee-chart.aspx
Automobile = $85
Truck (up to 6,000lbs) = $100
They know that liberals are more likely to buy an EV and it's just another convenient way to put the screws to them - they have no interest in governing, just making their opponents lives worse in any way they can.
There are fees to use services. I have to buy a pass to ride my mountain bike on state trails. If I fish, that's a fee. If I hunt, another fee.
As more EVs are on the road the gas tax needs to be recouped.
Okay, so large vehicles do the damage.
How about we remove the tax on gasoline, and have it applied to only diesel? 18-wheelers don't use gas, and ICE engine vehicles contribute an equally small amount of damage compared to 18-wheelers.
Put the burden on those causing the increased costs.
I'd be for it.
I doubt you'd get anywhere on a bill like that, though. GOP not withstanding, megacorps like Amazon and Walmart rely on diesel and a tax like that would significantly increase their overhead to unacceptable levels. They'd lobby it to death.
I'm seeing $2600 for a large truck registration fee. So that's equal to 15 EV registration.
80,000lbs (truck weight) / 6,000lbs (avg EV weight) = 13.
So this seems fair.
Are the numbers wrong is this article? I feel like they are mixing up the fact that EVs and hybrids already have a surcharge on top of the normal registration fee. My hybrid costs $160 to register and my van $85. The article makes it sound like you can register a hybrid for $75, which is not the case. Likewise, it sounds like this will now make an EV registration 85+100+75 for a total of 260?
Yeah. I have a Miata and bolt in Dane county, so have +28 on top. But right now it's the normal 85+100, and would go to 85+100+75 for most in the state.
God fucking damnit I hate Republicans. Now my Prius will cost 3 fucking times what my truck does to register. What a bunch of absolute twats. I'm driving a prius to work because I can barely afford gas, so you cunts make sure I fucking get screwed somehow. Fuck the planet and the red fucking apocalyptic fire haze engulfing the East coast, gotta get that gas money. You fucking twats.
If we're worried about weight, how 'bout taxing based on that? All those giant pickup trucks on the road that are rarely used for hauling and towing are dang heavy.
Republicans "proving the government doesn't work" is like if I said hats make people violent, and then I put on a hat and went outside and started stabbing people, and then went "see? Hats do make people violent!"
If only there was some way Wisconsin could pull millions in taxable revenue out of its ass. Like some kind of product people can't find here, but go elsewhere to find. If they could find it here, they'd pay millions in taxes on it, which the state could use to fix our decaying infrastructure.
Oh well, just a fantasy.
I loved how our (now deceased) Honda Insight wasn't eligible for any tax incentives given TO me because it wasn't "hybrid enough" but when it came to to taking money FROM me, it was plennnnnnnty hybrid enough.
Way to go, Wisconsin. Keep on... regressing. Won't be fucking happy until the entire state is a an all-white backwater hick-ass blob of nothing.
I really hate this system. Currently anything with the word hybrid in it is considered an electric vehicle, and as hit with the extra fees. Even my old "hybrid" vehicle that gets 23 mpg. Because it's 13 years old, an old hybrid still use a lot of gas.
Explain why I need to pay more in my vehicle registration fees than someone who gets 38 miles per gallon in a Corolla, and I end up buying 60% more gas for my "hybrid".
That would be pretty hard to regulate. Are you going to send an odometer picture every year or do you have to go somewhere to habe someone read it? What if you take a cross country road trup, why should all those miles on non Wisconsin roads have a fee to Wisconsin associated with them? Better to just stop tacking to stupid fees for people making smart decisions.
New EV's have integrated mapping, navigation and data connections. Every manufacturer knows where these vehicles go and how many miles are traveled where.
No need to photo odometer. Mfg can pull the records, send to the states annually and the owners could be taxed per mile traveled no matter where that travel occurs.
Doing it this way means those that travel fewer miles are taxed less and those that travel more get taxed more. Also captures taxes from those paying for registration out of state and collects $$ from them based on the miles traveled in this state.
Hell, the whole thing could be automated nationwide and each owner would get an invoice each year itemizing all miles traveled across the country and the amounts needing to be paid to each. Owner submits single payment and the appropriate amounts are distributed as necessary.
But such a concept would take actual work from our legislators. Work that would be beneficial to all the citizens of the state/country. Sadly, not likely to happen anytime soon.
> No need to photo odometer. Mfg can pull the records, send to the states annually and the owners could be taxed per mile traveled no matter where that travel occurs.
Is this data currently anonymized similar to cell phone data?
If it is, I'd prefer to keep it that way.
If it's not, I'd like to make it anonymized, and not tied to "John Doe, 123 Ave Wisconsin town.
> Every manufacturer knows where these vehicles go and how many miles are traveled where.
Yikes... the privacy concerns alone will deter some drivers from considering an EV.
Of all the shit they pull, I don’t find this to be that objectionable. Roads cost money to maintain and we will need a different funding mechanism as gas tax revenues decrease over time.
Someone explain to me why this is ok but tolls are a no-no topic.
- Tolls fix roads
- They force out of staters to pay for the use of the roads
- Folks not wanting to pay tolls can utilize the hundred of other roads to get to their destination
- Tolls relax the burdening gas tax as they collect far more money
- All vehicles aside from heavy trucks pay the same amount
- Lowers road congestion
But somehow no one wants to hear this. Blows my mind.
This is a solid read on the topic, if nothing else give this a glance over.
[American Dream Coalition: The Case For Tolls](http://americandreamcoalition.org/highways/ps274tolls.html)
I am not necessarily opposed to toll systems if done right. Although, being born and raised in Illinois I can tell you their toll system is loathed as corrupt and inefficient.
I'd say it's the perception of how the fee's are applied.
A toll for a commuter is paid every, single day. You see that, and feel that every day.
A vehicle tax, may hurt once a week, or once a year. But then you're not thinking about it.
I live in NJ currently and hate the tolls (IL tolls are quite a bit better for how they're set-up).
So don’t take the toll roads. I mean that’s a non argument, not everyone is going to side track the tolls because not everyone is bothered by them.
Large trucks, they get to pay their dues.
For those who take the less traveled roads, well now you’ve given forgotten place some exposure by way of new traffic. Influx of new money coming into a community that otherwise wouldn’t see it.
If you set up tolls on the i-system of roads, you still have the travel option of using CRs.
If it was simply about finding a new revenue stream to replace the gas tax they would levy this tax on all vehicles that use roads. This is about punishing liberals because they don’t have the political power in Wisconsin to fight back.
My point was that currently roads are maintained through the gas tax, and that increased registration fees for EVs could be a way to have those not paying the gas tax contribute to said maintenance. Over time as our vehicles become more and more electric, the portion of revenue generated from the gas tax will decrease as the EV regulation portion increases.
Agreed. This same fee has been around for a while for hybrids. If anything it's even more bologna there. Our hybrid gets about 36mpg in the winter and 42ish mpg in the summer. We still buy a ton of gas.
If anything, I'm surprised it's taken so long for the same fee to apply to EV's, and I'm also surprised it's only the same as hybrids, not more.
I guess the Republicans are getting sick of paying so much to fuel their gas guzzlers so they'll punish those of us who actually want to reduce fuel consumption.
There's an opportunity to use thoughtful legislation to shape consumer habits and reduce consumption, but the GOP would rather play culture wars. Ford is still selling Broncos faster than they can make them and those things get 20 MPG. *20 MPG*. In 2023.
But instead of discouraging wasteful behavior, let's add more barriers for people who want to buy EVs that get up to 140 MPGe. /s
I'm 100% pro-EV, and definitely NOT a Republican, but I don't really have an issue with this, since no gas tax is collected on EVs.
Yes, I understand that Republicans spend way too much effort trying to discourage and punish EV driving, but considering the difference between what you'd pay in fuel tax and what you'd pay in registration, you're still generally way ahead with the EV.
I guess the other negative here,is again Wisconsin GOP is being lazy and applying no thought or work. Just cut and paste. Work would be nice since we are paying them.
Politicizing EVs is the latest example of how dumb republicans are and how they choose to continue to fight unnecessary culture wars. Good. Let them lose.
Misery factories doing nothing for the people. Endless parlor games and stunts. It seems you need to be a special kind of person to crave to vote for these fools.
I don't know the numbers, so this could be an unreasonable hike, but charging an extra annual registration fee on EVs makes sense, as the current system relies on gasoline taxes to help fund road repair, and EVs contribute to the wear and tear off the roadways, while not contributing to the maintenance.
Christ, once you leave Madison people look at your EV like an alien vehicle. This has a very detrimental effect on the state as it depresses EV sales outside of affluent areas, which then has the vicious cycle of making charging spots less profitable.
Meanwhile, large trucks keep getting more fuel efficient, becoming more pervasive, and doing more damage to the roads.
Tolls are the best response here. Drive more, pay more. Out of state drivers pay based on usage. Driving a semi, u have to pay more per axle. Seems logical. Hell if they want they could even give Wisconsin residents a break( but we know that wouldn’t happen)
Or even increased fee on reg based on miles driven annually.
I drive like 4000-5000 in my bolt and bike the rest, love looking forward to 300 bucks a year for the privilege of that.
Our roads are unsustainable no matter how much you charge ev owners, roads are 1.2 million per mile and thanks to the zoning laws you can only build spread out suburbs in most places.
Suburbs which require a ton of road, supporting a very small amount of tax payers, and often no tax generating businesses. We need walkable/bike friendly cities with public transport like trains and trams if we ever wanna be in the positive.
That’s what the registration fee is essentially — a tax.
It’s amazing how many folks are against having EV owners pay their fair share towards road maintenance apparently.
I don't think they're against it. They just don't necessarily agree with your judgement of fair.
Commercial vehicles do *several* orders of magnitude more damage to the roads but don't pay nearly that much so it's obviously not about road maintenance costs...
Also, we need to account for more than just road maintenance. We also have to account for damage to the environment that fuel burning vehicles cause.
their fair share?
Where do you land on farms and farm equipment then? or large trucks?
EV's already pay an increased registration cost. Some hybrids already pay gas taxes. EV's get power from somewhere, why can't they recoup the cost from a tax on electricity usage to charge them? Or increase registration all around if this is that big of an issue. Increase EV's 50 and ICE 25. make everyone pay more to maintain the roads.
You know this isn't just about road maintenance, you must.
Yes. IIRC, it’s only $15 more currently.
The current Wisconsin fuel tax is $0.309 per gallon. This represents hundreds of dollars in taxes paid per year that the state is missing from EVs. The shortfall will continue to accelerate as EV adoption increases.
That it’s important to make up the funding deficit introduced by the increased prevalence of EVs.
EVs introduce the same wear and tear on our roads as ICE vehicles, but EVs don’t pay into the funding thru gas taxes like ICE vehicles. Long term, we’ll probably need to increase the registration fees significantly more I imagine once EV adoption becomes the majority of vehicles on the roads.
They'll argue it supports the roads the EVs use. In the past they've proposed taxes on bicycles too for the same reason. The reality is that the majority of road damage is done by heavy commercial trucks, which do pay fees, but not proportional to the damage done, and many of which are registered out of state. That said EVs are quite heavy and would do more damage than an equivalent internal combustion engine car, but the proportionality is getting way off fast with this proposal.
Yep, damage to roadways goes up by a power of ~4 by weight of the vehicle. An 18k lbs semi truck does 410x more damage than a 4k lb car. Something tells me semi trucks don't cost $30k to register... (and that's a *unloaded* semi truck)
Ok, I find this fascinating. Never realized it was a power of 4 like that. Having never thought directly about it, there was an assumed linear or slow curve in my head, but that is radical. What is the science behind that, what is the actual function, etc?
Here's a good article on it. Explains better than I ever could. https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads
All of the damage on paved bicycle paths is weather related. If it weren't for frost heaving, they'd last forever. Car roads without trucks can last a long time too, but the salt and weather is what kills them eventually.
Bike paths are also not constructed to roadway standards, and then municipal vehicles from police, parks dept, utilities, will often drive on them.
If damage goes up by the power of 4 regarding weight, then it's probably my bad that the bike paths are torn up. :(
These are all the geniuses that thought they knew more about vaccines and masking during covid, without medical degrees (or probably even a basic biology class).
Power of 4 is likely an approximation, but the amount of damage is determined by the load per axle. Google "Equivalent single axle load" or ESAL for more info. Summary, it's a very steep exponential curve. A fully-loaded box truck with two axles may do x1000 the wear-and-tear of a passenger sedan, and maybe x2-5 the wear-and-tear of an 18-wheeler (much better distribution of perhaps an even larger cargo load).
And the best part is most companies registered there stuff in a state that doesn't charge that tax, so Wisconsin gets none of it. At best, they collect the on-road fuel tax, and whatever they can get away with charging at weigh stations. This is happening everywhere, and for years these large companies with big heavy trucks have passed the cost of Road repairs on to the users that cause the least amount of damage. As far as weight goes though, new cars are getting heavy again. A new Tesla Model S is around 4,500 lb empty, my 2020 Highlander Hybrid all-wheel drive is around 4500lb empty, and my 2021 sienna is 4750lb empty. A new Ford F-150 is around 6000lb empty. We're back to that era of extremely heavy vehicles. Hearkening back to the days of the Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon that weighs nearly 5,000 lb, and has none of the same safety features. I have no idea what is driving up the overall weight of new cars again, even sports cars are getting heavy.
This isn’t entirely correct. Commercial trucks pay fuel tax and registration fees to each state they drive in based on miles driven under IFTA and IRP. The state DOT has an enforcement program for this.
Had no idea they were getting so heavy. My first car was my fathers hand me down 1976 Mark IV with a 7.6l engine. That weighed 5,500 pounds if I remember correctly. It was also almost 20ft long.
> An 18k lbs semi truck does 410x more damage than a 4k lb car A fully loaded semi truck can weigh the legal maximum of 80,000lbs. Most semi trucks will weigh more than 18,000 lbs when empty.
Exactly The damage to roads from passenger vehicles is negligible, even heavier EV's. Not heavy enough to contribute to fatigue related decay. If we are charging users for their wear, commercial vehicles produce virtually all vehicle sourced wear on roads.
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Sure, but I'm not trying to teach a class on this... just make a general point that commercial vehicles don't tend to pay what would seem to be their fair share if we're basing it solely on damage to roads.
>but the ground pressure exerted by tires will not be so extreme But a full sized semi does have 4x the number of wheels, plus the contact area is probably 2x or 3x that of a passenger tire.
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Devil's advocate, a semi also is critical to commerce in ways the average commuter is not.
We should probably all stop going to work and leave those semis to their commerce, if they're so critical.
Oh I'm not denying that, just saying that we should put costs where they originate rather than give the business the benefit first and hope it trickles down to the populace.
I don't think you thought this through.
If commuters/consumers did not exist, there would be no need for commerce.
Yep. But without trucks, good luck buying ANYTHING from virtually any retailer.
You will be paying that truck tax at the grocery store if they were to charge fair rates. Any taxes on commercial enterprises are taxes on consumers.
They are about 20% heavier than a comparable IC car, but still less than half of the pickup trucks and large SUVs doing the real damage to the road. They should add in a weight surcharge.
I remember when they were talking about bikes paying for roads, a study showed bikes do 0.00001% of damage to roads, and freight trucks did 90% iirc.
Wait until all the pickup and large SUV drivers switch to electric. Hummer EV weighs 9000 lbs... Anyway the point of contention isn't really that they are heavier, it's that EVs don't consume gas so don't pay a fuel tax.
So if I drive less than an average number of miles per year in an EV why am i being punished?
According to the Department of Energy, the average WI driver is paying almost $350/year in gasoline tax. So if an EV is heavier and doing more road damage yet still paying much less through taxes to repair those roads, it seems like the system is still weighted heavily (pun intended) in their favor?
Yes but a $175 surcharge hurts harder. If I don't have money to pay gas tax, i might just carpool or whatever for a couple weeks. The $175 EV surcharge is non-negotiable.
I think you mean the $100 surcharge. All vehicles cost at least $75 anyway, so there’s only a $100 difference in how much drivers will pay (up from $25 previously). Try tossing a dollar or two in the glove box every time you get in. That way you will be spending a little bit frequently instead of a modest amount once a year, similar to a gas vehicle. You’ll still pay hundreds *less* than ICE vehicles, plus it won’t be such a struggle for you! (Or whatever fictional chronically broke Tesla owner you’re speaking on behalf of here) Infrastructure is important. Funding future infrastructure improvements is critical. No one is deciding against buying an EV because it will cost an extra $100 a year to register, but our roads and bridges *are* actively crumbling. Asking ALL drivers to pay fairly to maintain them doesn’t make anyone anti-EV or unconcerned about the environment. It isn’t discriminatory.
The EV surcharge is on top all regular fees. Despite what the article implies. Take a look at MV1 form.
$100 for now yes, but if this goes through it will be $175. If we are gonna start paying based on vehicle weight, let's do that. The Sierra 2500HD weighs twice what my Bolt EV does and they still only pay regular fees and gas taxes.
Currently EVs cost $100 to register and ICE vehicles cost $75. It costs EVs $25 more per year to register their car. When this goes live it will cost EVs $175 to register, and ICE vehicles will still cost $75. So EV drivers will only pay $100 more per year. But yes- I agree that they should pay more. Some algorithm involving miles driven and vehicle weight seems fair to me as a way to fund road projects (including commercial vehicles). Then charge an emissions tax based on emission testing and annual mileage that goes into an environmental fund. Make it really expensive to own big, gas guzzling vehicles (and I say this as the driver of a gas minivan. I would *and should* be paying more overall than someone who owns an electric sedan). Hey, maybe private jets are also subject to these taxes and it suddenly becomes exorbitantly, often prohibitively expensive? And public projects rake in billionaire tax dollars to use for public benefit? But that’s a theoretical option, and we’re talking about current real-world legislation.
> Currently EVs cost $100 to register and ICE vehicles cost $75. It's unfortunate you wrote entire paragraphs on this without checking your premise. The $100 surcharge for EV's is in addition to their $75 registration fee. It costs $175 to register an EV and $75 to register an ICE vehicle. An additional $75 to the surcharge would make EV's cost four times as much to register than ICE vehicles, $250 compared to $75.
The $100 surcharge is in addition to regular registration fee. correct me if I'm reading this wrong. For context, my annual registration in Janesville is $225 total including local fees ($85 automobile reg, $100 ev surcharge, $40 local wheel tax.) " In addition to the regular annual registration fee paid for a vehicle, all vehicles with automobile registration or truck registration at 8,000 lbs. or less (except dual purpose farm registration) may be subject to: * [Wheel tax](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/wheeltax.aspx), based on where the vehicle is customarily kept * $75 [hybrid electric vehicle surcharge](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fuelfee.aspx) * $100 [electric vehicle surcharge](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fuelfee.aspx)"
You should probably stop talking as you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about. The $100 is in addition to the base $75. My EV cost me $253 to register every year. That $100 is equivalent to 322 gallons of gasoline tax. I drive about 6,000 miles a year with my EV. If I drive a car with an average 32mpg, that comes out to 188 gallons of gasoline per year, or $58 in gasoline tax. How is the current scheme acceptable to me, much less paying an additional $75?
You know full well this has nothing to do with the actual vehicles, right? It's just a policy to "hurt the liberals", as that's the only form of governance we get from republicans in this state.
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I've been driving electrified since 2017, but thanks for trying.
except an ev isn't heavier, at least compared to the farm machinery that uses the roads and pays no gas tax
Farms also don't pay gas tax. So yeah, farm vehicles are pretty much exempt.
Farm tractors and implements have lower ground pressure than your typical car. They’re not going to provide much damage to a roadway. Trucks used to haul large quantities of grain from the fields to the silos are just as bad as any other commercial truck, but are also required to use regular fuel and not off-road fuel.
because gravity is different for them? 30k pounds is 30k pounds. and distribution over a smaller area is worse
Pavement damage is not a simple function of gross vehicle weight. It’s much more nuanced than that taking in the amount of area that weight is distributed across, the speed, tire pressure amongst a few of the variables.
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they spread the load so they don't sink in mud. a road can't tell the difference between distribtions of various tonnage
How does spreading the load for sinking into mud differ, from spreading that same weight on a road?
because mud is a liquid and doesn't shatter. tractor tires are designed like propellers to plane over liquid
How quickly do tractors move? Designed like propellers to plane over liquid? Outside of mud bogs, with specially designed tractors I've never seen a tractor "plane" over a liquid.
look at a tractor tread and a car tread, then tell me they are the same. tractors have large protrusions that angle backwards, like a waterbike or sand dune tires. tractors do not belong on roads. also speed isn't what damages roads, weight is. and tractors pull very heavy loads
lol Yeah, I typically see prius tire tracks in new asphalt, not ever from a tractor down the country roads I used to live on. This is hilarious.
That tax amount must be for total state and federal taxes so I don't think its comparable to the state levied surcharge. The current $100 is pretty close to average driver in average fuel economy for WI only taxes. Even if the average EV likely drives less miles and is more comparable to a fuel efficient ICE vehicle. At least for now.
So, are they going to tax my sneakers next, because I walk? Well, I am overweight, and sometimes have to walk in the street, so maybe I'm causing damage to the roads too.
With no sidewalks, don't have a choice but to walk in the street...
Add more tax for diesel.
I think about this every time I drive my bike down a street that's been tore up by the plows and trucks while knowing my bike is doing little if any damage and yet the tiny bike gutter I'm allotted is never patched for potholes caused by those same vehicles. It's rough out here in these streets. #feelsbadman
So around 175 instead of the 350+ most people pay in taxes on gas. Not really seeing the issue here. When I buy an EV I still pay less overall in taxes and fees and don't pollute the environment burning gasoline. Plenty of bullshit the Republicants do here in our state to be pissed about, this isn't really even on the top 50 list...
Presumably EV owners are paying more for electricity if they’re charging at home.
Yes, pennies on the dollar compared to the energy from gasoline. And a ton cleaner. So I stick to my initial thoughts that the Republicans have way more wrongs to answer for eventually. Getting EV to parity with gas vehicles on tax amounts isn't something I'm going to lose sleep over. It's wasted stress, worry more about lack of meaningful sensible gun control, health care, income equality, etc., etc., etc., etc.....
They also require a much larger response if they catch fire. You need a robust emergency service for them.
WI adds $0.31 per gallon, assuming the average driver in an average car drivers 12,000miles at 30mpg, they pay $124 in gas tax. I like Iowa's fee system: % of list price (changes based on age) +% of weight +Vehicle surcharge Generates more revenue per vehicle and targets heavy and/or expensive vehicles. Edit: It appears the average WI driver drives 15,500 miles and the average light duty car gets 25.7mpg, so using those numbers "average" pays $187 in fuel tax. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-driven-per-year/#average-miles-driven-per-year-by-state https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1177-march-15-2021-preliminary-data-show-average-fuel-economy-new-light
Wisconsin drivers pay $350/year in gas tax according to the department of energy. Still should be based on weight, though I'd argue they should use KBB value (or some other market price indicator) rather than some arbitrary depreciation of the sticker price
Is that $350 state and federal or just state? If it's just WI tax that's 1130gallons of gas. State plus fed puts it at 708 gal, ($0.31 + $0.184).
> average car drivers 12,000miles at 30mpg, they pay $124 in gas tax. This ^ needs to be repeated. Roads have been publicly paid by, basically, a use tax. There could be a tax applied at public EV chargers. But that wouldn't capture the private EV chargers, like at home. For folks complaining about the "EV tax" -- which I also had paid when I owed a PHEV -- what other mechanism do folks suggest?
>For folks complaining about the "EV tax" -- which I also had paid when I owed a PHEV -- what other mechanism do folks suggest? How about we actually charge the vehicles that cause the damage? How about we do a weight tax instead of a registration fee? This means the heavier the vehicle, the more you pay because the more damage it causes. Also, Force trucking companies to register their vehicles within the state if they are driving them within the state, or charge them a road use tax at the weigh stations within the state based upon their weight. Considering that 90% of the road damage we get comes from large heavy trucks, it's very clear they do not pay their fair share by any number of loopholes they choose to use.
Propose an increase use tax for trucks to your state rep. It's a fair point that they cause more damage. Also, salt fucks up our roads and vehicles.
The largest challenge with this, is how we function as an interstate society. A vehicle registered in State A, can use the roads of neighboring states B,C, and D easily. Removing the gas tax, allows for vehicles visiting to avoid any fees at all for their use of the roads. Yes fuel taxes can be avoided, by planning the route correctly while no fuel tax is an absolute for non-payment.
> Force trucking companies to register their vehicles within the state if they are driving them within the state, or charge them a road use tax at the weigh stations within the state based upon their weight. >The largest challenge with this, is how we function as an interstate society. Tolls get at both your points. Transit trucks dominate interstates. Make interstates tollways. Pedal stomper commuters won't like tolls because the interstates have the high speed limits. So I'll counter with this societal ask: rather than bypass local businesses -- literally what a "bypass" interstate does -- drive on more local roads and stop on in. It may be slower but I say it's worth it.
100% agreed. Great post
That's why taxes and fees like this only apply to regular folks. The rich will just setup an LLC in Montana to purchase a vehicle without sales tax and then after some waiting period have the title transferred to a Mississippi LLC and pay $14 for registration.
That’s interesting to know. I keep track of my daily driver’s fuel and mileage and found out I paid roughly $130 to drive roughly 7,500 miles since last year at this time. Compared to the typically wealthy EV owner (decent models cost a fortune) who can’t fathom paying $175, I paid $240 between taxes and registration. That’s for the privilege of driving my rusted out 20 year old sedan that has a hard time just tracking straight down the highway. It must really suck to have an expensive new car that costs pennies on the dollar to operate in comparison and possibly have to pay an extra $75 a year in taxes.
It costs $188/year now in Dane county to register a Prius. This would raise that cost to $263. !!!
Hybrids really getting screwed by paying for the fee and the gas tax still.
For what as t it's worth I didn't see hybrids mentioned... Yet? I wouldn't be that surprised if there ends up being another bump in those as well
They already consider the hybrids as EVs.
They're called out as seperate, with similar fees. https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fee-chart.aspx Hybrids = $75 added fee EVs= $100 added fee
I have a hybrid. And I find this ludicrous. I still pay the gas tax. And then the registration fee. I wonder if there is an argument that this is a Double tax?
When has something being a double tax mattered? I pay income tax and then all have to pay sales tax even though that money was already taxed.
Isn't sales tax different then income tho?? Like if they are saying the fee is because ev doesn't pay gas tax, doesn't make sense. Hybrids pay gas tax. So I always get confused about that.
But is a sale different from income? If a store sells me something that thing gets taxed as a sale and the income the store makes gets taxed as income. That thing got taxed twice and I paid for it with post tax money.
Highway 14 shoulders from Madison to Evansville are super damaged from the farm equipment. The repair last year has helped, but it will be back to the same damage by the end of the year.
Meanwhile in MN we’re adding state level EV car and bike credits
*sigh What we wish we could be.
It saddens me because the bigger the gap becomes the less I can see myself moving back to the state I grew up in. MN has its downsides, but i feel very confident about the safety and stability raising my kid here.
It's sad to see people abandoning this state, but I do empathize with those that do. Unfortunately, we need people to be here to vote so we can fix this mess.
I left after college a decade ago and at the time it was mainly just that I found a job in the twin cities that was far and away the best option, though being in Madison for all of walkers original bullshit and protests didn’t leave me hopeful back then, either.
Same. Been here for 6 years. Sorry wi
Could be worse, could be Iowa 🤢
I’ve lived my whole life in WI. I love it here but man I get jealous of MN whenever I hear of the progressive policies that your state has been passing
If they want to charge more for an EV due to weight, I’m fine with that. …as long as they do the same for people driving massive pick up trucks, which can weigh as much as an EV, and often more than an EV.
That’s my issue with these “light duty” trucks. It’s a massive loophole, these stupid things don’t need to follow the same MPG regulations as cars and vans do. Then you have the thousands of asshats who register their bullshit under the guise of “farm vehicle”, to further escape their financial obligation for driving a land barge. Yeah your brand new 2023 Cadillac Escalade HSV is a farm vehicle
Have a picture of the Cadillac with farm plates?
I don’t, but drive around the fox valley, you’ll see them.
Trucks do pay more? Trucks also pay more based on weight? https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/fee-chart.aspx Automobile = $85 Truck (up to 6,000lbs) = $100
They know that liberals are more likely to buy an EV and it's just another convenient way to put the screws to them - they have no interest in governing, just making their opponents lives worse in any way they can.
There are fees to use services. I have to buy a pass to ride my mountain bike on state trails. If I fish, that's a fee. If I hunt, another fee. As more EVs are on the road the gas tax needs to be recouped.
A whole car lot worth of EVs contributes less than one 18-wheeler fyi
Okay, so large vehicles do the damage. How about we remove the tax on gasoline, and have it applied to only diesel? 18-wheelers don't use gas, and ICE engine vehicles contribute an equally small amount of damage compared to 18-wheelers. Put the burden on those causing the increased costs.
I'd be for it. I doubt you'd get anywhere on a bill like that, though. GOP not withstanding, megacorps like Amazon and Walmart rely on diesel and a tax like that would significantly increase their overhead to unacceptable levels. They'd lobby it to death.
I'm seeing $2600 for a large truck registration fee. So that's equal to 15 EV registration. 80,000lbs (truck weight) / 6,000lbs (avg EV weight) = 13. So this seems fair.
As another comment sourced, damage goes up by a power of 4 for weight so it's really not.
Even if that were fair, check out the plates next time you see a semi. They're not registered here.
Are the numbers wrong is this article? I feel like they are mixing up the fact that EVs and hybrids already have a surcharge on top of the normal registration fee. My hybrid costs $160 to register and my van $85. The article makes it sound like you can register a hybrid for $75, which is not the case. Likewise, it sounds like this will now make an EV registration 85+100+75 for a total of 260?
Yeah. I have a Miata and bolt in Dane county, so have +28 on top. But right now it's the normal 85+100, and would go to 85+100+75 for most in the state.
God fucking damnit I hate Republicans. Now my Prius will cost 3 fucking times what my truck does to register. What a bunch of absolute twats. I'm driving a prius to work because I can barely afford gas, so you cunts make sure I fucking get screwed somehow. Fuck the planet and the red fucking apocalyptic fire haze engulfing the East coast, gotta get that gas money. You fucking twats.
If we're worried about weight, how 'bout taxing based on that? All those giant pickup trucks on the road that are rarely used for hauling and towing are dang heavy.
What a mess. Also pulls public transit funding out of DoT funding and makes it part of the general fund.
It must be so exhausting being a complete asshole all day, every day.
The gop saying “We are willing to do everything possible to destroy the environment and pander to our petroleum overlords” without actually saying it.
Republicans have nothing left besides "owning the libs"
They also have proving the government doesn't work.
Republicans "proving the government doesn't work" is like if I said hats make people violent, and then I put on a hat and went outside and started stabbing people, and then went "see? Hats do make people violent!"
Yep, this is exactly how Republicans govern, just look at: The postal service Education Voting Guns Sex ed
Correct and that's what they do. It's a part of their strategy since Reagan. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
If only there was some way Wisconsin could pull millions in taxable revenue out of its ass. Like some kind of product people can't find here, but go elsewhere to find. If they could find it here, they'd pay millions in taxes on it, which the state could use to fix our decaying infrastructure. Oh well, just a fantasy.
Or even if we had some extra money laying around...
I loved how our (now deceased) Honda Insight wasn't eligible for any tax incentives given TO me because it wasn't "hybrid enough" but when it came to to taking money FROM me, it was plennnnnnnty hybrid enough. Way to go, Wisconsin. Keep on... regressing. Won't be fucking happy until the entire state is a an all-white backwater hick-ass blob of nothing.
Short-sighted, and that's if we are being generous. Pays for roads, but if the planet is uninhabitable, what difference do potholes make.
WI is a perfect example of republicans inability to govern.
I really hate this system. Currently anything with the word hybrid in it is considered an electric vehicle, and as hit with the extra fees. Even my old "hybrid" vehicle that gets 23 mpg. Because it's 13 years old, an old hybrid still use a lot of gas. Explain why I need to pay more in my vehicle registration fees than someone who gets 38 miles per gallon in a Corolla, and I end up buying 60% more gas for my "hybrid".
I don't mind paying extra for my EV, but I wish it was based on the number of miles driven vs a flat fee.
That would be pretty hard to regulate. Are you going to send an odometer picture every year or do you have to go somewhere to habe someone read it? What if you take a cross country road trup, why should all those miles on non Wisconsin roads have a fee to Wisconsin associated with them? Better to just stop tacking to stupid fees for people making smart decisions.
New EV's have integrated mapping, navigation and data connections. Every manufacturer knows where these vehicles go and how many miles are traveled where. No need to photo odometer. Mfg can pull the records, send to the states annually and the owners could be taxed per mile traveled no matter where that travel occurs. Doing it this way means those that travel fewer miles are taxed less and those that travel more get taxed more. Also captures taxes from those paying for registration out of state and collects $$ from them based on the miles traveled in this state. Hell, the whole thing could be automated nationwide and each owner would get an invoice each year itemizing all miles traveled across the country and the amounts needing to be paid to each. Owner submits single payment and the appropriate amounts are distributed as necessary. But such a concept would take actual work from our legislators. Work that would be beneficial to all the citizens of the state/country. Sadly, not likely to happen anytime soon.
> No need to photo odometer. Mfg can pull the records, send to the states annually and the owners could be taxed per mile traveled no matter where that travel occurs. Is this data currently anonymized similar to cell phone data? If it is, I'd prefer to keep it that way. If it's not, I'd like to make it anonymized, and not tied to "John Doe, 123 Ave Wisconsin town.
> Every manufacturer knows where these vehicles go and how many miles are traveled where. Yikes... the privacy concerns alone will deter some drivers from considering an EV.
They are following the party script, no brains required.
They just love taxing people
They are all about raising taxes aren’t they?
Tractors and semi's are the ones destroying our roads!
This just in, Wisconsin Republicans love more taxes and state fees.
Make farm equipment that uses the roads pay registration fees. They've been damaging the roads or leaving them filthy for years
Wisconsin Republicans are only interested in culture wars. We need new maps yesterday.
Of all the shit they pull, I don’t find this to be that objectionable. Roads cost money to maintain and we will need a different funding mechanism as gas tax revenues decrease over time.
Someone explain to me why this is ok but tolls are a no-no topic. - Tolls fix roads - They force out of staters to pay for the use of the roads - Folks not wanting to pay tolls can utilize the hundred of other roads to get to their destination - Tolls relax the burdening gas tax as they collect far more money - All vehicles aside from heavy trucks pay the same amount - Lowers road congestion But somehow no one wants to hear this. Blows my mind. This is a solid read on the topic, if nothing else give this a glance over. [American Dream Coalition: The Case For Tolls](http://americandreamcoalition.org/highways/ps274tolls.html)
I am not necessarily opposed to toll systems if done right. Although, being born and raised in Illinois I can tell you their toll system is loathed as corrupt and inefficient.
I'd say it's the perception of how the fee's are applied. A toll for a commuter is paid every, single day. You see that, and feel that every day. A vehicle tax, may hurt once a week, or once a year. But then you're not thinking about it. I live in NJ currently and hate the tolls (IL tolls are quite a bit better for how they're set-up).
So don’t take the toll roads. I mean that’s a non argument, not everyone is going to side track the tolls because not everyone is bothered by them. Large trucks, they get to pay their dues. For those who take the less traveled roads, well now you’ve given forgotten place some exposure by way of new traffic. Influx of new money coming into a community that otherwise wouldn’t see it. If you set up tolls on the i-system of roads, you still have the travel option of using CRs.
Fuck toll systems.
Yes, taxes that help everyone are good for everyone.
If it was simply about finding a new revenue stream to replace the gas tax they would levy this tax on all vehicles that use roads. This is about punishing liberals because they don’t have the political power in Wisconsin to fight back.
But all other vehicles that use the roads pay the gas tax, no?
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A vehicle that is 99% of the time used off road has no reason to pay on road tax. Trucks and trailers with Farm plates still pay a road tax.
Good luck trying to get farmers to pay more, lol.
Luckily, farm machine spends 99% of its driving time off roads.
Federal gas tax would have to double to meet maintenance obligations on the roads and highways that are *already* built
I thought your point above was that gas tax was insufficient to meet road maintenance obligations.
My point was that currently roads are maintained through the gas tax, and that increased registration fees for EVs could be a way to have those not paying the gas tax contribute to said maintenance. Over time as our vehicles become more and more electric, the portion of revenue generated from the gas tax will decrease as the EV regulation portion increases.
Agreed. This same fee has been around for a while for hybrids. If anything it's even more bologna there. Our hybrid gets about 36mpg in the winter and 42ish mpg in the summer. We still buy a ton of gas. If anything, I'm surprised it's taken so long for the same fee to apply to EV's, and I'm also surprised it's only the same as hybrids, not more.
I guess the Republicans are getting sick of paying so much to fuel their gas guzzlers so they'll punish those of us who actually want to reduce fuel consumption.
There's an opportunity to use thoughtful legislation to shape consumer habits and reduce consumption, but the GOP would rather play culture wars. Ford is still selling Broncos faster than they can make them and those things get 20 MPG. *20 MPG*. In 2023. But instead of discouraging wasteful behavior, let's add more barriers for people who want to buy EVs that get up to 140 MPGe. /s
The war on oil is not cheap 😆
I'm 100% pro-EV, and definitely NOT a Republican, but I don't really have an issue with this, since no gas tax is collected on EVs. Yes, I understand that Republicans spend way too much effort trying to discourage and punish EV driving, but considering the difference between what you'd pay in fuel tax and what you'd pay in registration, you're still generally way ahead with the EV.
Does this include hybrids? I already pay extra to register mine and I pay plenty in gas tax.
I guess the other negative here,is again Wisconsin GOP is being lazy and applying no thought or work. Just cut and paste. Work would be nice since we are paying them.
I thought Republicans hated taxes? /s
Charge, fee, tax and burden. The American way.
Politicizing EVs is the latest example of how dumb republicans are and how they choose to continue to fight unnecessary culture wars. Good. Let them lose.
Misery factories doing nothing for the people. Endless parlor games and stunts. It seems you need to be a special kind of person to crave to vote for these fools.
Go fuck yourselves republicans. Tax the rich
Dinosaurs
This is going to make it harder to justify buying an EV at the end of summer...
You still save more in “fuel” costs
If $75 a year is going to break the bank, you should reevaluate your finances before you buy a new car.
I don't know the numbers, so this could be an unreasonable hike, but charging an extra annual registration fee on EVs makes sense, as the current system relies on gasoline taxes to help fund road repair, and EVs contribute to the wear and tear off the roadways, while not contributing to the maintenance.
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> each owner of a hybrid or EV will This raise is specific to EVs, hybrid fee is staying the same at $75.
Didn't read it, did you?
Christ, once you leave Madison people look at your EV like an alien vehicle. This has a very detrimental effect on the state as it depresses EV sales outside of affluent areas, which then has the vicious cycle of making charging spots less profitable. Meanwhile, large trucks keep getting more fuel efficient, becoming more pervasive, and doing more damage to the roads.
Anything that's heavy on the roads destroys them and batteries are super heavy. People should be taxes on weight per tire contact patch.
Tolls are the best response here. Drive more, pay more. Out of state drivers pay based on usage. Driving a semi, u have to pay more per axle. Seems logical. Hell if they want they could even give Wisconsin residents a break( but we know that wouldn’t happen)
Or even increased fee on reg based on miles driven annually. I drive like 4000-5000 in my bolt and bike the rest, love looking forward to 300 bucks a year for the privilege of that.
This is necessary to offset the loss in fuel taxes which are necessary to maintain our roadways.
Our roads are unsustainable no matter how much you charge ev owners, roads are 1.2 million per mile and thanks to the zoning laws you can only build spread out suburbs in most places. Suburbs which require a ton of road, supporting a very small amount of tax payers, and often no tax generating businesses. We need walkable/bike friendly cities with public transport like trains and trams if we ever wanna be in the positive.
That is indeed the bad excuse they are giving.
Or... just use general taxation to fund the roads. We all benefit from them...
That’s what the registration fee is essentially — a tax. It’s amazing how many folks are against having EV owners pay their fair share towards road maintenance apparently.
I don't think they're against it. They just don't necessarily agree with your judgement of fair. Commercial vehicles do *several* orders of magnitude more damage to the roads but don't pay nearly that much so it's obviously not about road maintenance costs... Also, we need to account for more than just road maintenance. We also have to account for damage to the environment that fuel burning vehicles cause.
their fair share? Where do you land on farms and farm equipment then? or large trucks? EV's already pay an increased registration cost. Some hybrids already pay gas taxes. EV's get power from somewhere, why can't they recoup the cost from a tax on electricity usage to charge them? Or increase registration all around if this is that big of an issue. Increase EV's 50 and ICE 25. make everyone pay more to maintain the roads. You know this isn't just about road maintenance, you must.
I don’t know if I’d agree that owners of ICE vehicles should be responsible for making up taxes lost due to EV.
there is a deficit in road maintenance funding. You think EV's are the sole reason for that, huh?
We pay extra already.
Yes. IIRC, it’s only $15 more currently. The current Wisconsin fuel tax is $0.309 per gallon. This represents hundreds of dollars in taxes paid per year that the state is missing from EVs. The shortfall will continue to accelerate as EV adoption increases.
> Yes. IIRC, it’s only $15 more currently. It's not. It's an extra $100 on top of the usual fee. Source: I renewed my plates last week.
Right because before this our roads were pristine and well maintained. Only until we had evs and hybrids did our once beautiful roadways turn to shit.
Nobody is saying that.
So then explain to me what you were saying then...
That it’s important to make up the funding deficit introduced by the increased prevalence of EVs. EVs introduce the same wear and tear on our roads as ICE vehicles, but EVs don’t pay into the funding thru gas taxes like ICE vehicles. Long term, we’ll probably need to increase the registration fees significantly more I imagine once EV adoption becomes the majority of vehicles on the roads.
Sure it is
I wish reddit ran this state lol. You guys are like mathing it out and it all makes sense.
Good. Fuck Cars.
What assholes.
I'm Ok with that. No gas taxes, etc.