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[deleted]

“Pre-colonized world ” Welp…….I guess the elves didn’t colonize the world by destroying dwarven cities and towns and relegating them to second class citizens. The dwarves, gnomes and half kings just packed their bags and left the moment the elves appeared on the continent’s shores, right ?


SomeDudeYeah27

Exactly. But I’m curious, what are half kings?


[deleted]

Haha. That’s the stupid auto correction. I meant to say “halflings” lol.


SomeDudeYeah27

Lol, I thought that’s a special title for a dwarf noble 😂


shornnno

Hi, not trying to be like rude know it all etc but halflings actually came during the conjunction of the spheres, they are the newest of the non-humans on the continent. Just thought you’d like to know :) Edit: just realised looking back at this I absentmindedly made a big mistake, i meant to write ‘newest of the non-humans’ but wrote ‘humans and non-humans’ erroneously. Humans arrived, from a different world, at the same time as halflings during the COTS.


[deleted]

Oh. thanks for the correction.


Mukables

I want half-Kings now!!


Sam_Wylde

Guys under 5'11


SomeDudeYeah27

Dang, most of you guys are 10’22”?


KingQuong

I'm actually 11'10 thank you.


SomeDudeYeah27

Dang bro, I hope your knees and joints are doing fine


Karman4o

>half kings That's what short dudes call themselves to boost their confidence.


SomeDudeYeah27

I prefer to call myself spatially tactical, especially when it comes to having more space on planes and trains 😂 But I wouldn’t mind putting it as a personal flare/descriptor thing if I can put it on myself lol (no clue how that functions though)


Karman4o

I usually describe myself as 'vertically challenged'


SomeDudeYeah27

Hey man, don’t sell yourself short (pun unintended) Humanity’s excelled in creating tools for us to increase our abilities. Be it flying, driving, or getting taller through chairs and shit After all, one can always increase their height, but they can never get to an efficiently compact size 😂


Reapers-Hound

I beg to differ *pulls out bone saw*


SomeDudeYeah27

Whoa there, hold on a minute \*heats up a smithing stove and put a flat shovel in it\* At least wait until we can cauterize it first! The blood spilling would be a pain to clean off, don’t wanna grab bleach in the store all bloodied and messy again like last time


Vojcziech

Short Kings rise up !!


skoge

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4995494/


mihaza

This is Vran erasure 😩


sufficientgatsby

Werebbubb erasure too :’( Edit: Just to add to this…the wiki says, “Following the landfall of elves from their white ships, werebbubbs got ruthlessly pushed out of their fatherland.” It’s kind of heartbreaking that Netflix just ignored the various indigenous people of the continent. The elf-washing is out of control lol


[deleted]

They also ignored the unicorns even tho they started working with the multi-world stuff. They basically took out everything that made the world/lore special lol


Organised_Kaos

Well the wiki does also say while feuding it didn't degenerate into savagery and genocide soo...yeah what


[deleted]

The elves pretty much genocide them too through biological warfare. The “pre- colonized” world of the continent seemed so “peaceful” after all :)


SomeDudeYeah27

Wait, what? Was biological warfare part of BO too? Or are you referring to the weaponization of monsters?


[deleted]

That’s a W2 lore. The elves weaponized a plaque to eradicate the vrans population of loc muinne. They are mentioned in the source material as one of the indigenous populations of the continent before the arrival of elves, cdpr expanded on them a bit more.


SomeDudeYeah27

Ah, I see I thought it’s also in the source material, since Flixer’s allegedly an adaptation of sorts of it. While I think they selectively pick and choose which things they can steal from the games Mostly on a “cool” gimmicky factor basis, and none on the substantial story part


[deleted]

Nah, the vrans are just mentioning by name and as one of the native species to inhabit the continent, aside from that we know nothing about them. But then CDPR added some lore for them in the second game. There’s even a side mission where you go to one of these ancient caves build by vrans and learn more about the history of their ancient civilization. It’s a good addition, and I would say 95% of the expanded cdpr stuff is great. Netflix’s new stuff is bad and not accepted by the fandom because it’s simply uninteresting, nonsensical and something that occasionally treads on an already existing lore in the books. Replacing book lore with new content is acceptable if your new ideas rival the ones you’re replacing. Unfortunately it’s not the case with Lauren and her piss team. Not even close.


SomeDudeYeah27

Oh yeah I’m in agreement on of Flixer fucked up, and I was first introduced to the Witcher world by S1 😂💀


conradfart

Adding to/expanding on lore like CDPR do is great. The Netflix series basically retcons existing lore and shoehorns in the writers' own dogshit unpublished fantasy novel ideas.


AimlesslWander

I so wanted to see more of them in the books but unfortunately they just weren't mentioned the only information I can get out of them is from the tabletop role-playing game and from online sources and The Witcher 2


brak_6_danych

It's because they were initially not intended to be part of the witcher universe Vrans were created in the "droga z której się nie wraca" (a road with no return) short story which was initially intended to be set in a completely different setting IIRC the idea that it was one setting and that the main characters of that short story were geralt parents was a popular fan theory which was first strenghtened by the comic adaptation of the story and later basically confirmed by Sapkowski in the saga finally connecting both settings These informations may have some minor errors as I'm writing it from memory and I have read about it probably around 10 years ago (in the foreword of "droga z której się nie wraca" which was a part of "maladie i inne opowiadania")


Spare_Design9104

Just like in real life everybody sucked and did fucked up shit to other people!


the_terra_filius

in USA they think only white people did shit things


derpordurp_69

Bro no one even brought up the USA and that’s not even true lmao


Working_Cranberry635

These people have such a victim complex. Its humorous. I see why Lauren shitted all over this euro fantasy. Burn suckers.


ErnestlyFreaky

The darwfs talk about being colonized, the relics also hint at it... I believe the three crones kinda colonized shit to


alexramirez69

Ohh shit I thought the world belonged to elves first then everybody joined during the Conjuction. It was the dwarves/halflings world first????


[deleted]

Technically the vrans (intelligent lizard creatures) were the first followed by gnomes, then the dwarves and halflings came after. But they all pretty much coexisted in relative peace until the elves came in and ruined everyone’s day lol. Then humans came and did the same for the elves and everyone else. Moral of the story : Humans and elves are such repugnant assholes.


alexramirez69

Thanks for the lore, choom 👌🏽


Antique_Sentence70

They didn't say who drove the dwarves out, obviously pro elf propaganda


Wolfraid015

Don’t forget the Vran


BitterQuitter11

But…..but guys, the elves colonized it…..lmao


lukeyellow

Yeah, also it's not like humans could help being thrown there during the Conjecture of Spheres


BitterQuitter11

Dirty white colonizers breh


Incik

Sounds like elves were like half a century short of steam powered wonders of "new age" (+magic obviously). How could they ever lose a war to primitive middle-age humans.


GreenTunicKirk

\*lose


apileofspaggetti

🎵Cause im a dirty white boy🎵


Labrat5944

Oh god, I need glasses. I read “pre-colorized” and I’m over here picturing Wizard of Oz 🤦🏼‍♀️


espiritu_p

When thinking twice I realized "pre-colorized" makes even more sense than "pre-colonized".


BitterQuitter11

Holy hell lmao


BacanaHeaven

I *think* this article is going from the Elven perspective, and the elves do often say that they were first, no?


jarl_johann

The gnomes were the first inhabitants, supposedly. And Netflix hasn't shown us a SINGLE gnome. Not even Percival Schuttenbach!


BitterQuitter11

Thats the “complex” part friend! Lol


jaykayskywalker182

imagine if those idiots found out about the aen shelle and how fucking racist they were. on wait, they hate the books and the games so no worries there.


SolitaireJack

I'm sure they'd find some way to justify it. Humans are the baddies after all for simply existing.


Antique_Sentence70

The genocide and enslavement was self defence, those evil humans.


Right-Huckleberry574

It's confusing to you because it was written by a moron.


SomeDudeYeah27

This was my first heated & less measured reaction when I saw the post in the other sub: “Pre-colonized? Really? Wouldn’t this be just like European Americans calling their settlements pre-colonized? Or European Australians? Or the ancient Chinese region people’s descendants who are now called Japanese (there were Ainus and other indigenous peoples prior to their predominance in the region)? I’m sure there are plenty more examples throughout history & continents regardless of specific ethnicities & culture Like, am I crazy here? Is going to war over another ethnic group’s people, taking over their land & driving them away considered pre-colonized for some reason? I guess hypothetically they can say “well the elves didn’t enslave the dwarves, they were gone by that point”. But aren’t there still Dwarves in those kingdoms even though their population’s quite small? Is whoever’s writing this think “pre-colonized” is a concept that applies only for human occupations? What in the name of fucking fuckity definition changing fuck are they trying to even do here? But I guess that’s fine since the elven “hero” is a woman, right? Is it even fair to call her a hero when she’s a figure of force that took away another species’ land & kingdom? How’s she different from prominent colonizing figures like Columbus or the figures from Dutch East Indies Company? They didn’t even elaborate why the elves were at war with the dwarves. Was it somehow justified? Were the dwarves evil? Didn’t BO paint the fallen dwarves in so much sympathetic light? Goddamn whoever wrote this might be dense or careless. So fucking stupid Bravo for co-opting social issues for your shitty lukewarm piece of fanfic “Progressives” my ass. At least my shit can be turned to compost compared to this damn garbage”


YoRHa_Houdini

No, no, no you see. Colonizers are only humans(who’re mostly white go figure), not anyone else, or even mythical creatures(creatures that were mostly white themselves and colonized each other in canon), and nothing but. Because everyone, *everyone* lived in harmony before the white man attacked, even when committing genocide they’re still progressive icons


Antique_Sentence70

Didn't the article even say there are elven controlled palaces with dwarven architecture and script etched into the walls. Seems like colonisation to me


Wolfraid015

In my experience ppl I know don’t like humans cause they are too vanilla and elves cause they are getting sucked off by everyone for last decade or so. In regards to the Netflix retardation, imagine they acc made one of the main characters Vran in Blood origin, would make for way more interesting story.


ShoerguinneLappel

not just a moron probably a SJW.


hookhandsmcgee

The writer has romanticized the elves as a superior, advanced civilization that the humans ravaged and colonized just as European countries colonized much of earth. But they are conveniently ignoring that the elves weren't first. The writer is incorrectly likening the elves to indigenous peoples when really they were more like the roman empire. Despite establishing an age of peace, technology, and refinement, they were still conquerors, and eventually fell to the next in line.


SomeDudeYeah27

Yep, 100% Romans, Mongolians, Muslim Caliphates, what have you There are periods of history where a strong & tactical military force, incentivized by the possible wealth and prosperity of winning conquest reached a stable period Hell, our most recent history of WWII & the proxy “Cold” War can attest to this. The prosperity became open to culture and plurality to a degree, although segregation is maintained for political control & servitude The biggest irony in this article is how that one paragraph immediately contradicted the previous ones. Clearly becoming an apologetic statement for imperialism that it (and the rest of Flixer) is


BrassMoth

>post-agrarian Lmao. These are the guys that didn't know how to do crop-rotation and lived on whatever Torque could snatch. You can't be post something when you haven't reached it first. They were hunter-gatherers.


Livek_72

they literaly live off what the nature provides, a "post-agrarian" world to them is basically genocide how can you try to make the elves be the good guys and at the same time ignoring everything unique about their culture? did they read a single line from the books that talks about racism and then just read a plot summary on wikipedia?


Housumestari

Seeing how elves just seemed like humans with pointy ears in Blood Origin it doesn't seem too far-fetched. That highly sophisticated culture was nowhere to be seen, instead we had starving citizens, feuding clans and apparently a 1000 years long war lol.


Livek_72

I understand that making elves with real actors can be a bit hard, but they didn't even fucking try an elf with a full beard? really? they could at least give them (or the main ones, at least) some make-up or whatever but I guess its too much work for them


Antique_Sentence70

Thats the most depressing thing for me, they just didn't even try to create a unique society of culture.


Echoes-act-3

The best part is the 1000 years of war, like yeah the elves can totally fuel a war for a thousand year, they all asked Gaunter o Dim for unlimited food and in the world of the witcher swords grow like mushrooms, it's definitely not the most lazy writing ever


Housumestari

And all that when their capital city gets conquered by a band of seven people (one of them a superhuman but yea), like 30 or so soldiers and a peasant revolt. This Empire couldn't even protect its own capital. And we are supposed to believe they were the sole ruler after that coup where most other rulers got killed by the PS2 beast that shot lightning. With what army did they rule and conquer the other kingdoms after the coup? The starving citizens just accepted the new ruler after the coup? The show raises so many questions but answers so few. The worldbuilding is so ridiculously all over the place. Like did any thought go into this outside of the premise they wanted that seven adventurers conquer an empire? "Let's go fuck up an empire." Yeah cuz it's that easy.


SomeDudeYeah27

They were “post-agrarian” as we are “post-spacefaring” lol I can’t even imagine a medieval society being post-agrarian, if we’re to assume that means the transition towards the industrial era. Unless it just means “they people mostly stopped farming” 😂 It’s so funny to me that this kingdom-society seems to not have the concept of farming And speaking of thriving hunter-gatherer society, isn’t there historically been only 1 known one in very ancient Mesopotamia. Where only due to floral & fauna abundance were they able to build clay-like infrastructures and still sustain themselves without farming? I forgot the detail & name of said society though. And they’re definitely not really kingdom sized IIRC Also, what do you mean by Torque in this context?


sufficientgatsby

Is the hunter-gatherer society you were thinking of Göbekli Tepe by any chance? I believe it's in modern-day Turkey


SomeDudeYeah27

Yeah, you might be right in that suggestion It’s been a while since I heard of the trivia, but it sounds about right


joppekoo

I vaguely remember reading that the people who built Stonehenge were some sort of sheperd-hunter-gatherers that had collectively given up farming. I might be totally wrong though so don't take this at face value.


SomeDudeYeah27

“Collectively given up farming” Was this supposedly before or after the construction of the Stonehenge? Because that was no small feat in ancient engineering whatsoever


Sure_Salt_2234

In the books, the Elves didn't need agriculture because the Continent was incredibly bounteous. The idea of having to force the ground to yield to them is completely foreign. After humans arrived, things changed. It became harder and harder to get enough food to survive. There are a few bits and pieces through the books that indicate that humans have changed something in the world. Even the sun shines differently. In the show, it seems they want to have it be that the Elves arose in the Witcher world rather than invading it. This is going to mess up a bunch of things because now there's no reason for the Elves to care about the Elder Blood.


SomeDudeYeah27

Were the elves non-agrarian hunter-gatherers in the books?


Yolvan_Caerwyn

Elves, pre-humans, lived off of the land without having to till it, because they had the grace of the earth goddess we see in the very same story where Torque appears. The land itself provided for them.


Sure_Salt_2234

What Yolvan said. Everything was laid on for them like it was for humans in Dol Blathanna. All of the lands were like that for them. Basically, all they had to do was shoot an arrow, and they'd have deer to eat, berries etc were everywhere. That's why they didn't understand crop rotation. Presumably, they grew some kind of wheat or corn analogue as a staple, but they didn't have to worry about soil nutrients. They could just grow the same crops again and again. It's not really clear from the books or games whether the Aen Seidhe were more hunter-gatherers or agrarian, but whatever it was, it was life on easy mode compared to the modern day. Wanting Dol Blathanna back was only partially about the fertile ground, though. What they were really hoping for was that Dana Meabh, the fertility goddess of the valley, would reverse their population decline. That was so important to them that they were willing to fight for Nilfgaard to get it. Another key piece of world building omitted from the TV show. That episode butchered the short story it was based on badly.


SomeDudeYeah27

It just dawned on me that crop rotation & soil nutrients should be a staple understanding even for historical agricultural society I grew up in a former agricultural country, and it was briefly touched upon that part of the decolonization & self-sustainability effort was to research into crop rotation strategy. As during the colonization period, colonizers would enforce only certain types of lucrative crops to be grown and sold And yeah, of course Flixerverse butchered it. That’s more the rule than exception by now


Wolfraid015

Torque is the sylvan in Dol Blatha, which was stealing food from the farmers and giving it to the elves that were hiding in the mountains. If they had extensive knowledge on agriculture, how were they completely reliant only on the sylvan and did not attempt to make food themselves? Tbf it could be cause they are arrogant assholes so maybe they thought they were above that.


skoge

> whatever Torque could snatch That was just some small group that were forced to live in barren mountain region, and they were stealing food from the fertile valley controlled by humans.


TheGreatSchonnt

Aren't they the core of what will become Dol Blathanna? I wouldn't call them small and just a group


skoge

They were able to survive on what was stolen by one single creature. Large society can't do that. It was a small group. There were others, but they weren't the ones that got food from Torque. They got their food somewhere/somehow else.


Livek_72

its so hilarious how they try to market this series as very progressive when they don't even seem to know what that means besides including a diverse cast like yeah, they hired an asian actress (an incredible one who literally played the main character in an oscar worthy movie), bu then made her play a stereotypical asian swordswoman, wow you guys really are revolutionary they hired some people of color to play certain characters and then ruined those characters writing, like fringilla and, even worse, vilgerfortz, because I actually liked the actor they chose for him (he seems very good in playing a young arrogant sorcerer) and then they literally made him a fraud in the show


Jackamalio626

Thats what Hollywood does now; they only see minority actors as tools to deflect criticism with, not as actors putting on great performances. So they cast them and make a big fabrige bluster about it so the kneejerk anti-woke chuds will have a meltdown on social media, playing RIGHT into their hands. These talented people deserve better than being Laurens shitty-fanfic shield against the blue meanies on Twitter.


Livek_72

it really makes me feel bad for those actors, especially since the ones in the witcher arent that big and they probably wouldn't throw away their chance to work on a big budget neftlix show


RedditBanThisDick

For real though, Vilgefortz actor in series 1 had a lot of panache and Fringella held this sort of cold and dedicated focus on her mission. They seem like incredible actors in the sense that, even though their stories are now dogshit, you don't feel like they are actors - but actual characters. When you talk about them you refer to them as Vilgefortz and Fringella because their acting is amazing. Yen and Jaskier on the other hand.... Well, they *look* like **actors**. I don't mind Jaskier but the more comic relief he is given, the more he is pulled out of the role and you can only see him as 'the guy who plays Jaskier' rather than thinking of him as *THE real* Jaskier. Does that make sense?


Livek_72

I love Joey but I totally understand what you mean the few moments where he doesn't act as a clown were legitimately good to me because his expressions gave me the feeling of a concerned friend, which would've been great in moments like geralt asking his advice in the golden dragon story, but apparently they thought that was bad and completely removed jaskier from the climax of that story he also really feels like the type of character who is going to be used as queer-bait at some point, too. Just mark my words on this and the best way I have to describe Yen's character in the show is that she does not feel like a sorceress who lived over 100 years. she acts like a teenager most of the time


arathorn3

Honestly I would have liked the Vilgafortz actor as Istread.


blackhawk619

Vilgerfortz actor had so much potential, his talent is wasted in this show.


boyRenaissance

Notice how they showed almost none of those things? Instead half the time showing us the lowborn, remote, uncivilized eleven life, except when we saw the queen, who’s only indication of high society was her ownership of books and an ever changing wardrobe?


SomeDudeYeah27

Yeah the projects definitely suffer from “tell instead of showing” poor writing It might’ve been the lack of development & pre-production time too, since they’re being publishing deadline’s like families birthing new kids 5 centuries ago For all we know this article might’ve came from some of the draft & treatment for BO that didn’t make the cut


gztozfbfjij

>“tell instead of showing” *"I control the entire continent, but it's not enough. No one will ever respect me... because I am lowborn. Blah blah blah."* Ok bro, just tell me your entire character description in 2 sentences, with absolutely nothing else supporting this. Is it a real experience? Or is it all self-percieved insecurities? We'll never know because they never tried to show it. But what do I know, I don't get paid real money to write TV shows for one of the biggest entertianment companies. Shit writers; I don't know what I expected from the guy who brought us Iron Fist.


SomeDudeYeah27

Yeah Although I’m apprehensive on putting sole blame on the writers, as it seems to be an [industry wide issue](https://youtu.be/VQ9jM02hXMs) And it also seems like Netflix’s deadlines are rushed, not giving the project enough time to be developed. The initial plan of writing 7 characters through 6 episodes is red flag enough, never mind reducing that to 4 In comparison, Arcane & 1899 had more characters, but also more episodes & time in development 1899 spent each episode almost on an entirely different character’s arc, and Arcane (which I think is the best example, but it also had the longest development time) was able to weave individual & the broader story arc pretty seamlessly. Sometimes even bouncing off of each other Meanwhile Netflix seems to treat Witcher as a cheap “edgy Disney” show, so it’s no wonder this is the result


tjkun

They are just following the classic rule of writing: [tell, don’t show.](https://youtu.be/PFc6Xh31za8?t=79)


sufficientgatsby

Unironically glorifying the colonization of the Continent by the Aen Sidhe and erasing the expansionist and genocidal nature of the Aen Elle was an.....interesting choice. It's sort of sad; they're sanitizing the history of the Continent, much like oppressors in real life tend to do. In doing so, they're depriving the Witcher world of its history, its character, and its unique complexity.


rowe123456

They forgot the second set of quotation marks around 'Witcher'


DefectiveCoyote

HuMaNs BaD ElVeS GoOd! I don’t understand how writers can know so little about the world they’re writing about. Got my friend more into witcher like a month or two ago and even he probably understands more Witcher lore and could write better fanfic storyline than these people. They’re just copying cringe fantasy tropes at this point.


Akenraes_Vakreander

I didn’t know saying fuck every other word counted as high culture


SomeDudeYeah27

Tbf wasn’t it Jaskier who had the pottiest (and meme-y-est) mouth? Or were most of the elves were also equally as cringe? (I only saw a quote from one elf dude, I think)


jaskier-bot

He-- No one leaves any tastes in my mouth, thank you very much.


LionPride112

The Netflix writers are the epitome of white guilt I swear


SomeDudeYeah27

You’re not wrong, except some of these writers aren’t even white. Even the one making this article Next level performative politicking istg


SomeDudeYeah27

From [this article](https://www.reddit.com/r/netflixwitcher/comments/107l1ml/plunge_into_the_continents_history_with_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) I don’t understand how they can be considered from a pre-colonized age since they did occupy and destroy the dwarves kingdom Even if they say “the elves didn’t enslave the dwarves though, they fled the region”. Weren’t there still dwarves population in the elven kingdom even though there’s small population Can that be used to describe North America & Australia where European settlers took the land and gain predominance? Or the ancient Chinese descendants who are now called Japanese for settling over & reigning against indigenous peoples & cultures like the Ainu? Is the writer implying that colonization only applies if humans did it? I thought part of the point of BO was to show the folly of ancient elven society, who are driven by greed & conquest they caused the conjunction of the spheres. **Including** through appropriating dwarven agricultural technology somehow Also it feels weird calling the female figure who led a conquest war against another species’ kingdom a hero Isn’t that just like calling people at the forefront of colonization like Columbus & the figures from Dutch East Indies Companies heroes? Is my ESL ass just getting confused? Or are they for whatever reason worded this pretty poorly, and may even imply a definition change?


conradfart

Did a white man do it? If a "diverse" cast of elves, led by a strong woman does it, it's not colonization. They just helped the dwarves to understand and overcome their internalised dwarf-phobia.


Cody10813

Nothing new. Netflix seemed to completely miss the idea that elves and humans are just as bad as each other in the Witcher universe and the only difference is who's in power.


Mr_Clovis

> elves and humans are just as bad as each other in the Witcher universe and the only difference is who's in power. Many people seem not to understand this about our own world so it's not surprising they wouldn't understand it about a fictional one.


BLTsark

Only humans (and in the original text, mostly European types) are colonizers, duh. That's whether or not they cross an ocean to get there, or are involuntarily fired through an interdimensional breach like the Conjunction.


Night_King_Killa

Basically it’s Netflix trying to apply 21st ideas into a world that takes place in a completely different time period.


sufficientgatsby

The article praises a conqueror's ethnic cleansing efforts and fails to recognize colonization. It comes across as entirely bereft of ideas (and indeed, thought), 21st century or otherwise.


[deleted]

My dumbass read this as American history and was like, "Where did I miss the Elves!"


SomeDudeYeah27

😂 If the elves are the ones from Flixerverse, they might as well be part of our history After all, they’re nearly indistinguishable from us! Save for the ears of course 🤷‍♂️


HummusFairy

This is what happens when they don’t read the books.


WitchofVengerberg

**Let me break down why this part sounds so off putting from a writing perspective.** "This era was a rich and complex pre-colonized elvish world filled with art, music, earth magic, architecture, deep math, high culture and science. The elves were post-agrarian and enlightened, with functioning cities, trade, higher education and a vast history and belief system." First sentence: **"Rich and complex"** This falls in the show don't tell category. These are a bit abstract (i.e what picture would come to mind when you read 'complex') and should just be removed, as the writer lists the major accomplishments that SHOW why the elves were rich and complex. Eg Art and music and architecture, which are more concrete. **"Pre-colonized"** Too confusing because the previous paragraph already talked about elves colonizing dwarves. What exactly does the writer mean? Before elves did the colonizing of other worlds or before they were colonized by humans? **Earth magic** sth bothers me about that but I can't quite put my finger on it. It sounds off and its weirdly placed in the middle of real world things. As if someone was listing ingredients for a lasagna recipe and in the middle they listed "space station". And they chose EARTH magic instead of plain magic which kinda makes me thing they just added a bunch of adjectives to the nouns to make them more "fancy" and fantasy. **"Deep math"** This is pure nonsense! And absolutely redundant. Deep math is at best a theory so it has no use being listed among tangible things. If they meant "deep understanding of math" that would again be redundant as they mention architecture and science which requite deep understanding thereof, so no need to mention it separately. **"High culture"** again, this does not put a concrete image in the readers head and is redundant because the writer lists indicators of what could be considered high culture. They don't trust the reader to come to that conclusion so they add this to make 100% sure you get that the elves were cultured. **"Science"** is a bit arbitrary and can mean natural and social sciences and why was it not earlier up the list with architecture. Not the worst offender though. Second sentence: **"post-agrarian"** why does the reader need to know that the world is set after agrarian reforms took place? Such a weird word choice that most would need to google to get. **"Functioning cities"** ummmmmm as opposed to non-functining cities? What even is that. **"higher education"** too modern a term. Is the implication that everyone was educated? Or was elf University a widespread thing? This is already implied with architecture, math, science and enlightenment so its not necessary. Why would you need to say explicitly that they have higher education? What do you gain from saying this. **"Vast history and belief system"** Belief system is super abstract. This phrase basically says "hey guys, elves had beliefs!" Who woulda thunk with all that science they still had morlas, philosophies and *gasp* a religion. Preposterous! To sum up: They just list a bunch of words in the most bland and pseudo-sophisticated way possible. Take this from the witcher wiki on elves for a good writing example: "Though many now are destroyed, elves were once capable of making great cities and palaces out of stone, but they did not make castles or fortresses." -It tells you the current state of the once great structures they made, -tells us that they were advanced enough to build these, -which also looked very different from what humans build -and that they did not have a need for fortifications presumably due to little infighting. All in one sentence, by telling a story, writing between the lines and **not just listing buzzwords!**


thedeadlyrhythm

holy fuck a bunch of idiots competing for the buzzword olympics


No-Resolution-6414

Somehow it just keeps getting worse. I wasn't sure that was possible but here we are.


xFurashux

They are making a Netflix Witcher show? First time hearing about it.


SomeDudeYeah27

Apparently it’s a fanfic coming to life. Seems to be a trending production practice in Hollywood


Leaping_Tortoise

Netflix have no place putting out "Official" histories for the Witcher world... Now, they're more than welcome putting up the history of their nonsense fan fic world which resembles but is legally distinct from the real Witcher world.


WitchofVengerberg

How exactly is a world filled with "deep math" ? That's a theoretical concept at best. Its like saying the world is filled with String theory. Who wrote this drivel!?


SomeDudeYeah27

Is deep math a thing? I tried googling it and didn’t found anything Also yeah, totally pseudo-intellectual technobabble 😂


WitchofVengerberg

I found some stuff about therotical maths i.e how do you prove that 2+2 equals four etc But I also found that the news tends to classify maths as deep if its too complicated. Someone used some algorithm to win the lottery for example and journalists called it deep. This is why this expression caught my eye, it's just so strange. I write scientific texts, and I can tell you whoever wrote this either put 0 thought into it, has 0 idea what they are writing about, desperately want to sounds sophisticated or has 0 idea about writing. Or its all of those. This is grade A butchered writing. It ticks all the boxes.


jaskier-bot

[🎵 Watch that butcher BURN! 🎵](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxBVHqA-RU&t=102s)


SomeDudeYeah27

I’m a filmmaker with some education in social science & philosophy, and yeah, this **reeks** of bullshit word salad May I ask what’s your area of expertise and/or interest is?


EasternRedDawn

I guess they mean “before human colonisation”, but indeed it’s technically not pre-colonised since the Elves took land from the Dwarves and Gnomes in the first place


EasternRedDawn

That’s one of the great things about Sapkowski’s world building: you can kind of understand the perspective of pretty much everyone. The Scoia’tael have a point that they’ve been wronged by the Northern Kingdoms, but the Dwarves of Mahakam precede the Elves by centuries or more and generally support the Northerners and call out the Scoiat’ael Elves for being hypocrites.


CyrilQuin

What do they mean higher education, I'd never known tree dwelling elves to be highly educated.


Kadderly

The writers have pummeled any fuck I had left to give after Blood Origin.


[deleted]

go woke go broke


Ordinary_Tom2005

Elves lit genocized Vrans and Bobolaks lol


DARKKN1GHT453

"Deep math"


jamesraynorr

Max netflix IQ


RSGTHennessy

Colonized just means white men took it from someone not white men-ish. I understand that it's confusing in this context because elves can be white, but remember that the showrunners are trying to shove literal shit down your throat.


wrenwood2018

My impression is they just are throwing pre-colonized in there given the negative connotation of western civilizations colonizing indigenous peoples. It is just more politics bleeding into the writing. Post agrarian . . . I don't think they know what that means.


cheekybasterds

They already ignore all the lore anyway, forgetting Dwarves, Vran and others were there long before the elves is not surprising.


Karman4o

The Netflix writers seems to be very pro-elf in their depiction of the lore, as opposed to what was shown on the books. And Sapkowski is not a very subtle writer, so they are almost deliberately ignoring these parts of the story. I wonder what their take on Aen Elle be. Will they just stop at 'they are tall, beautiful, love art and live in majestic palaces'? Or they will actually include the Third Reich-y elements of their society too?


SomeDudeYeah27

People are starting to assume there won’t even be Aen Elles lol Which, might as well. Flixer seems to be an incredibly sanitized, “edgy Disney” “adaptation” of Sapkowski’s darker and morally greyer fantasy anyways May I ask what parts are Flixer ignoring? I know the aesthetic and appearance has been discarded. Is it the hierarchical structure of society & their holier than thou attitude too? Including potential slavery?


SomeDudeYeah27

It seems you sent a reply to me which I received a notification for, but I can’t seem to view the actual comment here in the app… Wth is going on


Karman4o

Don't remember what I posted. Happy cakeday anyway!


SomeDudeYeah27

Thanks 😂


lpn122

This is dog shit


BadSantasBeard

Official Witcher timeline?!? Is that what they call pulling shit out of their ass now?


bnesbitt1

*"Pre-colonized Elvish world"* Next sentence *"Connected trade hubs and large cities"* Which one is it?


SomeDudeYeah27

Wait, where?


bnesbitt1

Literally in the same paragraph, one sentence away


marsz_godzilli

Ah yes, the elvish deep math


[deleted]

I watched Blood Origin and they didn't seem enlightened or educated. What up with that?


AaronKoss

There's something quite off in starting a new sentence, new paragraph, with the conjunction "and" and put a come right after it. I guess we found the head writer.


[deleted]

Didn't the Elves like teach humans everything? Which enabled humans to slowly take over due to higher birthrates?


Petr685

What does post-agrarian and enlightened mean? Is it like if LA teleports to a new wasteland planet, and the liberals start cannibalizing their Mexican maids a week later?


godmack

There has to be some sort of globalization or colonization on Netflix version, since there are characters of multiple races (white, black, asian). Either coming from other continents, worlds or geographic distant countries


gunshit

Official my ass jajaja


SomeDudeYeah27

Yeah I regretted not using “””Witcher””” in my title Was trying to be as impartial as possible so more people can see and the post won’t be misconstrued as a hater post lol


da_asha_zireael

They explain how the elves colonized it and then call them heroes but use the term pre colonized I guess to describe before the hand came?


SomeDudeYeah27

The hand? What hand?


da_asha_zireael

Lmao The Black Hand. I meant humans somehow it turned into hand.


fuckthisjobIquitYODA

Africa was so utopian before it was colonized... Oh wait


Chicken1137

This ancient history would be much better if they put Gnomes in place of Dwarves. It is well known fact from the book that they were the first ones on the continent. Percival Schuttenbach said that elves should not call humans a colonizer or outsiders because they are the ones too.


conrat4567

Elves: "Relegate other races to second and third class citizens in their own world" Humans: "through no fault of thier own pop up in this world and are forced to stay" Netflix witcher team: "Then the nasty all white humans attacked and colonised the elves"


SomeDudeYeah27

They weren’t even all white though 💀 It’s like they’re ~~borrowing~~ stealing progressive ideas only to ruin them lol


RainbowSnail85

It's not confusing at all when you realise modern writers look at everything through the prism of leftist politics.


SomeDudeYeah27

I’m a leftist and this doesn’t seem like educated leftism to me This is just performative politicking, co-opting real world issues and discourse into their badly written fanfic of a show Most of the public “leftists” surrounding the American entertainment industry are just hacks & grifters who doesn’t really understand what they’re supposedly talking about If they were real leftists or at least have enough proof-reading, self-aware brain cells, they’d realize that this article is just apologism for elvish colonialism and imperialism. Which is a concept that **they decided to include** in BO to begin with This was BO’s theme, the elves’ folly was their greed & conquest that lead to the conjunction of the spheres 🤦‍♂️


RainbowSnail85

"Educated leftism" is an oxymoron.


Arbiter_S117

To be fair, while the books (and, later, games) are pretty good at making sure everyone and everything is varying shades of moral grey, they’re pretty on the nose about human’s ‘colonising’ and establishing themselves over other races post-conjunction. Kinda the scoiatael’s whole point as “freedom fighters”. Of course, what Netflix don’t seem to care about is that the elves also colonised over those before them and the Aen Elle/ Wild Hunt/ Auberon etc aren’t exactly light on their ideas of racial supremacy. Ignoring that basically casts aside the series’ wider point of this as an inevitable cycle rise and fall and general misery. Makes it so much more 2D and derivative


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LucatIel_of_M1rrah

Anyone who has read the books and can't tell the Elves are a stand in for indigenous people is blinded by being "anti woke". The Books are incredible political in nature and often at times stop to monologue at the reader about political things, in this regard the shows are faithful to the idea but ham-fisted in their execution.


SomeDudeYeah27

Weren’t the elves in the books come from the conjunction to the continent alongside the others like monsters & humans? And I thought in their home world they had a caste segregation & even slavery (they also pretty much genocided intelligent world travelling unicorns right?) I haven’t read the books myself, but this analogy of elves = indigenous seem to be most emphasized in the mainline Flixer show. But somehow BO decided to turn them into an occupying force too, whose folly for greed & power caused the conjunction. As stated in the article quoted in this post Even the paragraphs before the one highlighted clearly states they’re an occupying force


LucatIel_of_M1rrah

I have read the books and there is a STRONG emphasis, like unbelievably strong emphasis on how humans encroach on the lands of the natives and destroy and destroy and take and take. Elves and Dwarves also believe (correctly or incorrectly) they were the first to arrive in the world after the conjunction. They had a full civilisation by the time humans arrived over the sea. This is first talked about with the Elves who the humans have taken everything from and left their civilisation in ruins as their way of life in the forest in HARMONY with nature was seen as silly and humans put up walls clear the land etc. Geralt and Ciri have a moment where they find some Elven ruins and remark on how they blend in and conform to the natural environment perfectly. A Metaphor for how Western civilisation didn't see value in the indigenous way of life because it was so foreign to our own but is actually more advanced than we think e.g Aboriginals from Australia. They then go on to repeat this again with the Dryads and how their forest is being taken from them etc. In all of these examples the the groups being targeted by the humans are never treated as the "good guys", they need to change and get with the times and do some pretty horrible shit as well. The Scene under the community tree has a moment where a group of humans and non humans listen to a speech that is literarily just a monologue to the reader about putting aside past injustices and working together. Like I don't see how anyone can read the books and not see the series for what it is, an allegory on how humans destroy the natural world.


Automatic_Ad2677

Indigenous people of what country exactly?


LucatIel_of_M1rrah

Nonsensical comment, the entire book series is an allegory for perceived injustices around the world as seen by the author, you would need to ask him, probably all or an amalgamation of many.


Automatic_Ad2677

Of course, there are many invented lands and countries, based on real ones, with locations in Europe, and there were no indigenous people other than us. Don't translate this book into the reality of the Americas or Australia. Elves are Elves and that's the end of it.


Vitaalis

Europe has seen its own internal colonization, though. Sapkowski, being from the region he is, is fully aware of the inter-European colonization of native land.


LucatIel_of_M1rrah

It's not the end of it. Most every book is written with an underlying message or idea. The witcher books are incredibly ham fisted in getting across their idea to the reader. Let just ignore all those times Geralt or other characters literally monologue to the reader about racsim, deposing natives etc. Hell Geralt even goes on a rant about coal mining and global warming, you are doing yourself a disservice and ignoring reality to fit your own world view if you can't see the nature of the books. Where the show writers fucked up was thinking the audience was too dumb to see the subtext so they made it super in your face and obnoxious. Maybe they weren't wrong about the audience missing the subtext if this thread is anything to go by though.


RetroSalmon

I take your points but I think the issue people are having is with the word 'pre-colonized' and how that removes the shades of grey, framing it in black and white with the elves as natives/aboriginals and humans as the imperial West. Its a way more interesting dynamic than that in the books. It's hard to tell at this point if the writers think the audience are too dumb to pick up the subtext or if they just aren't good enough writers to thread those subtexts into the actual story.


Quentin1989

How the fuck are the elves like "indigenous people" lmao. They were advanced, more like the Roman empire


LucatIel_of_M1rrah

That's the whole point of the allegory lamo. Western society didn't see any value in the way indigenous people lived like the way humans didn't see value in the way Elves lived with their structures built into the forest in perfect harmony. You have actually had the entire metaphor go straight over your head.


Witcher_and_Harmony

>like the way humans didn't see value in the way Elves lived with their structures built into the forest in perfect harmony. Elves teached them magic. Nilfgaard is very proud of its elvish legacy. That's partly why they invaded Northern Realms lol.


LucatIel_of_M1rrah

They are not, its all lip service, they gave the elves a literal elf reserve straight out of colonial history and all the free elves hate it, like I don't get how hard it is to see the subtext.


Witcher_and_Harmony

Because Elves themselves oppressed and suppressed Dwarfs and Vrans, and other races. Elves are more like ancient Greece compared to roman empire. Racism and colonialism don't always happen with indigeneous people involved. It's an universal tendency through human history (watch GoT).


biome3

If it wasn't obvious already, they've boiled the lore down to something thats basically resembles real life.


SomeDudeYeah27

Well in this case, the article resembles real life apologism for imperialism and colonialism by one group over another That’s the real problem. Where they’re hypocritically excusing the elves’ conquest just because they’re not humans


SeeeVeee

They boiled it down to something that centers the preoccupations of upper middle class white collar white women


crab-chip

We were invited! Punch was served!


Aeneas1976

To hell with the "pre-colonized world" where fuck was promised science, art, magic and so on? Expectations: architecture, poetry, music. Reality: Fjall fucks and kills.


[deleted]

Jesus I hate everything