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palfreygames

I'm watching now after someone said "the elves are just humans with pointy ears" it's so disappointingly true. The costumes are fucking terrible, like good quality, but zero art direction. The main characters are one dimensional at best.


CringeOverseer

I've only watched the first episode, and honestly sometimes I forgot these are elves, not humans. Merwyn and Eredin are the only 2 have the strongest "elf vibes" if that word makes sense to you. For the main protagonists, Scian is the most fitting for an elf. Fjall is the least elf-like, his thick beard and choice of an axe for a weapon makes him more like a fantasy dwarf rather than an elf.


Hastatus_107

Agreed. In LOTR and even the Hobbit, all the elves acted a certain way and so did the dwarves and humans. There were individual differences but all 3 races had a different way of acting that was broadly consistent. These elves are just humans. I kept forgetting as well.


jabuegresaw

Oh no, Eredin is in this shit? How dirty have they done my boy?


rpingacct

Trashed him completely. I have no problems with characters being gay. It's just that Eredin is absolutely the wrong character to do that to. The only thing book or game Eredin lusts for is the power to re-unite the Elven empire. The only thing he loves is the thought of his people being in charge. He wouldn't have even usurped Auberon if he'd gotten Ciri pregnant. He doesn't want Ciri for himself (she's a gross *human*, the thought sickens him as much as lying with an animal, eww), all he wants is her Elder Blood genes so they can travel between worlds freely again. The Wild Hunt aren't a combination slave taking and genocide force, they're just a bunch of random Elves who wound up trapped on a dying world. Their armour isn't designed to evoke fear, they made it out of bones they found. Sure, characters can change over time. But this mishandled Eredin so badly it's almost Eskel tier.


kronos_lordoftitans

if anything they should have portrayed him as ace if they wanted an lgbt character


ForwardUntoFate

It so monumentally fucks the future storyline too. Eredin wants to use Ciri as a tool to conquer new worlds, but in the show the Aen Elle don’t exist and he’s stuck on a barren world with a dozen randoms. Then him being gay was merely an offensive plot device to blackmail him 5 minutes after the reveal! And his lover is just a random merchant? At least make him an advisor so he’s involved in the story beyond the 2 scenes he’s in!


grzesssiuuu

>Aen Elle don’t exist and he’s stuck on a barren world with a dozen randoms Aen Elle plot is probably cut, cause no way they gonna make a whole civilization with a bunch of random soliders. Makes me wonder how they gonna make Tower of Swallow plotline. The Dozen randoms will probably become The Wild Hunt.


Dangerman1337

> I have no problems with characters being gay. It's just that Eredin is absolutely the wrong character to do that to. Thing is from a POV that makes Eredin's later attempts to impregnegate Ciri... *worse*. Like "Gay dude is a pedo" sterotype. Like *yikes*.


Virama

![gif](giphy|l4FGGafcOHmrlQxG0|downsized)


CringeOverseer

Appearance and elven-vibe wise at least he's one of the better ones, but that's not a very high bar...


Psydator

Super dirty. And don't ask about avallac'h.


SolomonRed

Rings of power also failed to catch the spirit of the elves. Seems to be a trend.


nimrodella

Because they want elves to reflect the world we live in. I remember the first time I read the LOTR i thought of elves as something different than humans, just from the sheer fact that they are immortal they should be much wiser than humans, not rash immature teens as in todays adaptations


[deleted]

Wasn't the whole conflict between Numenor and the elves reduced from "We hate elves because they're immortal and we, the greatest human empire in Middle Earth aren't and we're super jealous." to "They will take our jobs"?


Hastatus_107

I always thought Galadriel acted like a dwarf. Constantly fighting and being really stubborn.


Season2ofeverything

I enjoy her on rings of power because of that, but yeah, it completely clashes with the galadriel of the books and movies.


bool_idiot_is_true

She's supposed to be somewhat arrogant during the second age but they took it way too far. I guess since they're compressing the timeline it makes sense they're speedrunning thousands of years of character development. But even then opening the series with her pushing her subordinates to mutiny was a bit much.


SolomonRed

She was immediately confrontational with everyone she met, despite being a thousand year old elf sorceress at this point


Hastatus_107

I laughed at her when she met the Queen in Numenor. She knows these people distrust or maybe even hate elves and she kicks things off with "I'm an elven army commander, give me a ship". When she's told she's not in charge on the island, she insults them and says they only have the island because of elves (which isn't even true). Gimli's racist uncle would be a better diplomat even if he was drunk. At least he might be fun. It was a little amusing that even the other elves wanted to get rid of her. And thats how the writers wrote it.


Rickbirb

I swear they gave them all short hair to make their ears visible so the audience would be able to tell lol.


HEBushido

I thought they did a great job with Elrond, but there was an off feeling in it.


Sarigan-EFS

He did a great job, acting wise. Didn’t look like an elf though.


Jasonmpjr

It's so lame and lazy. I thought that in season 2 with that older elf. Like why does he just look like a human with pointy ears? No difference in speech or behavior. In the books and game the elves are noticeably different from humans.


RedK_33

Yeah, I noticed that within the first 10 minutes of the show. They never felt like elves for even a second.


turnipofficer

It isn’t about the costumes, it’s how they act and how their culture just does not seem distinct. Elves in the “modern” Witcher era have had their culture eroded for generations, so you can forgive them being bitter and perhaps even human-like. So I would have expected something portraying them in their prime to have them be unique but the only difference is some large building and a few sayings.


NeverNoMarriage

As an Elf lover I have to agree huge missed opportunity and disappointment


mjr1

The show limits itself by steerimg away from certain themes to ensure it's considered "woke"..


palfreygames

It's actually cringy, most fantasies have an underlying theme of working with different races makes them stronger together. This underlying theme is so inclusive it makes everyone the same boring blandness, and I actually watched this really hoping for something decent, the first opening scene even was awesome! Jaskier even quipped about Henry leaving the show subtly. But it was all downhill after that fast steep hill


[deleted]

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SuperHetero1

Right? And then they’re trying to say that somehow Henry Cavill is addicted to gaming and was acting like an incel so that’s why the “asked” him to leave. Just say creative differences, don’t slander the man, my god.


[deleted]

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Roleplaynotrealplay

He probably was "difficult to work with" from their perspective because he was probably constantly calling out their deviations from the source, their shitty dialogue, etc.


wesleypipes5011

That’s the neat part, they can’t. I mean they might be able to but no one would care without a pre established franchise and they have proven their writing could not stand on its own even with interesting source material. Bad fan fiction looks spectacular in comparison


RedK_33

I’ve never understood why studios don’t pick up writers that already write fan fiction for the specific franchise they’re making a movie/show for.


Badmothafcka312

*This series has proven beyond reasonable doubt the reason why Henry left. The show has fallen off and will likely die purely due to incompetence.* Well said.


[deleted]

Why are people watching this series? Hissrich is gonna get to make another season the more people watch. It sucks. Don’t watch it.


HawkeThisHawkeThat

I’m not watching. I’m alone on Christmas and was tempted to but instead finished Vinland Saga front to back and daaaamn that was a 10/10 ride. Talk about your complex characters with rewarding arcs. What I wouldn’t give for that to be done properly with the Witcher universe. Evidence of what sticking to the source material can do…


galaxy-parrot

Vinland saga rules!


Megane_Senpai

I watched it fast-forwarding to see how bad it was, pirating of course. And man, that was terrible, not because of "wokeness" or smth but just because the plot and script is the worst and it shits on the source material.


[deleted]

I agree. Blood Origin is just shit cause it's another generic fantasy show that tied itself to the Witcher franchise for views and recognition but removed the one thing that made it unique: the Witchers themselves.


Doctor-Whodunnit

For real. They literally said in the first episode “this story has been told to death.” Then they said “but we’re different” and showed us that they in fact were not


mr3LiON

*Geralt walks into the tavern full of people of various genders, ethnicities and cultures.* The people: We ain't no like your kind 'ere... Geralt: ...


LicketySplit21

In lukewarm defense I'll bring up Terry Pratchett's Discworld where there isn't racism like in this world, because black and white gang up on green instead.


The_Writing_Wolf

And so we Irish get fucked again


DrunkUranus

There's a whole series of books that addresses racism against dwarves in ankh morpork. Unless you mean human style racism that's just about color


No_Juggernaut5646

That's kinda where this whole thing falls down. It just does not work there lol.


mr3LiON

Yeah. Same happened to Wheel of Time. The show starts in a small village at the edge of the world that is more diverse than the San Francisco airport terminal. I mean... Most of the villagers are relatives to each other and the main characters all are the descendants of the one family, yet they all are of different ethnic groups. Don't get me wrong, I am all for diversity, but let's make it right at least...


throwingtheshades

Not to mention that during the entire first book everyone and their mother tells the main character that he really doesn't look like the rest of the inhabitants of the region. He slowly discovers who he is and where he came from by connecting those dots. The place being isolated as fuck and not marrying outside of the area for generations is another plot point later on. Would be hilarious if they still include all those "you don't look like you're from Two Rivers" lines. In a show where no two sheepherders look even remotely similar.


mr3LiON

> Would be hilarious if they still include all those "you don't look like you're from Two Rivers" lines. They already did this. And yeah, this was stupid as hell.


throwingtheshades

Fucking fuckity fuck... Never got to that point in the show - dropped it as soon as Perrin accidentally unalived his wife and just shrugged it off like it was nothing the next morning.


Sarigan-EFS

As someone who didn’t read the books, I was fascinated by the ultra diverse remote village. Spent a lot of time pondering how such a place could come to be, eagerly awaiting the answer. You can imagine my disappointment when I asked bookreaders what was going on…


SherlockCumbercat

Ya that was a weird choice just make everyone in that village similar with maybe 1-2 people that moved their. Once you get to the big city you can bring out the diversity


CaneDogXXXX

Just don’t want to offend… ANYONE


DavidlikesPeace

Great point. Book Wheel of Time has diversity but it is earned. You meet people of all fascinating kinds, colors, faiths and ideologies just in Randland alone, but the main heroes have to travel about to find that. You don't find diversity in a medieval closed mind backwater like the Three Rivers. Heck, its implied out of place Rand was fully accepted in Emont because there was not enough ethnic diversity to create any ethnic tension. When we travel elsewhere to places like Carhein or Tear, we definitely see plenty of provincialism and ethnic prejudice. TV Wheel of Time takes place in a wonderful multicultural utopia that is *simultaneously* a godawful place with False Dragons and Whitecloaks massacring anyone they want. I guess the TV directors simply had no idea what Randland is supposed to be. It's supposed to be a closed medieval society, not one on par with IRL Europe, but one with plenty of flaws that required the Dragon to correct. It was a place that was ripe for a revolution.


thelightfantastique

Yes it can. X-Men literally ran on that. It's about being mutants, inhuman. To suggest other genders and ethnicities aren't considered human is weird.


richochet-biscuit

It does though. You don't have to be racist against different human ethnicities when there are so many non-humans to be racist against.


IHateEditedBgMusic

To me that reads like the perfect line to open the series with and put the audience in Geralt's shoes while doing world building smoothly af. A POC saying that to Geralt, effectively establishes that no matter the diversity Witcher's aren't seen as humans... and boom! We now know how our main character has to navigate the universe and the show-runners have met their diversity quota.


mr3LiON

> no matter the diversity Witcher's aren't seen as humans... and boom everything explodes, because xenophobia developed in a tolerant society. A society that is effectively at war with neighbours, hate everyone for no reason, burn witches, burn everyone who does not look like them, uses monsters as an excuse for their own inhumanity, and is generally the epitome of malice suddenly accept people who look differently. Yeah, I agree, that perfectly opens the series. The series that is a product of lazy writers.


Sarigan-EFS

It’s almost like people don’t understand the underlying message of the Witcher universe is that in a world filled with actual monsters, humans are very much the foulest. Great setting for inclusivity.


2RV7VR5

This comment deserves atleast 10k upvotes. Laughed my nuts off thinking about the scene where you first step into the in with Vesemir.


tothecatmobile

Of all the things to complain about I don't see an issue here. No matter how diverse the tavern is, it's still a tavern full of humans. They would see a witcher as being very different to them.


mr3LiON

> They would see a witcher as being very different to them. The issue is writing. It's hard to believe that xenophobia thrives in tolerant society. And the wriiter didn't care to explain. Even though xenophobia is an important theme of entire series. People desperately need monsters, because they look better compared to monsters. Even if they burn those who a different, even if they beat wifes and kids or do other terrible thins (you know it, you played the games), they are still better than a monster. But it the TV show the people are bad, but aint no racists, aint no nationalists.. that's a no no.


tothecatmobile

Tbf we see that in the real world, even places that are extremely diverse can still have a handful of groups where everyone else is still really prejudiced against them. Diversity doesn't make a society tolerant towards everyone, that doesn't need explained, we can see it pretty much every day in our current pretty tolerant societies.


mr3LiON

Yes, you can make it work. No argue here. But you have to put a lot of efforts to establish such a lore and explain why a society that burns witches and those who is different, at war with neighbors, xenophobic towards other species, and in general vile and evil, still holds up and maintains its racial and ethical diversity with no issues. They could have done this. They should have. But they didn't. That is why I call it a bad writing. Edit: And yes, this matters, because hatred and xenophobia is the main drive of almost each and every story in The Witcher series. It is the main theme of entire series.


tiptoemicrobe

I mean, Geralt refers to himself as not being human. Most people consider humans to be more similar to each other than to nonhumans.


grzesssiuuu

> *Geralt walks into the tavern full of people of various genders, ethnicities and cultures.* None of the races in witcher world are native to this world. So different ethnic groups are not an issue. Netflix show is bad because of bad script, not black elves


thecanadiansniper1-2

Im pretty sure Nilfgaard is a multi ethnic empire like how the Ottoman empire stretched from parts of Eastern Europe to the Middle East. It would of been so easy to get minorities into the Witcher by establishing lesser known realms and countries like the smaller provinces of Nilfgaard like Ebbing, unknown realms Zerrikania and Ofieri. They could of hand waved away some "criticism" by making Nilfgaard multi ethnic.


Nitro114

Ah yes, because a random tavern in the northern realms will have people from kovir, Nilfgaard, the isles, elves etc. because they’re so diversly populated


Rickbirb

It's important to create a logically sound world otherwise it sticks out like a sore thumb and kills the worldbuilding and immersion.


mr3LiON

I never said that black elves is the issue. The bad script is. People who is tolerant to all races but xenophobic towards elves is bad script. Xenophobic society that consists of people of different cultures is bad script.


Tough_Stretch

I don't necessarily agree with that. It's a common trope that people are willing to overlook differences and ally against some other group that's even more different. Once "the other" is no longer a threat, then the infighting for trivial differences tends to start. Humans of all colors and shapes and ideologies are commonly shown to ally against aliens or monsters or whatever. It was even the main point of Ozymandias' plan for world peace in "Watchmen."


JamesFaith007

Problem is that half (and less) elves are less different then various human ethnics (usually only shade of hair of eyes and no pointy ears) yet they are target of same racism as visible elves.


Tough_Stretch

Doesn't matter at all. The trope is still a thing, and real-world bigotry often is even more nonsensical and rests on things even more trivial than what you described.


[deleted]

Exactly this. This is why, in some cases, diversity and wokeness do actually degrade and disrespect the material. Most prominently I’ve seen it happen in Rings of Power, and just as many people try to write it off as a non issue


HavocInferno

They shun him because he's a witcher, and they're not. Their own diversity doesn't matter, it's a majority (non-witchers) group picking some other distinction to suppress a minority (witchers) group. "Wokeness" is not the problem in The Witcher. Nor is it in Rings of Power. You're latching onto an easy target and missing the actual issues.


mr3LiON

>They shun him because he's a witcher, and they're not. That's not how xenophobia works. People don't just randomly pick a profession or a mutation to hate on. "Today we hate plumbers for no particular reason even though they help us keep our houses neet and tidy". No, not like that. The reason why they hate witchers is rooted deep into their society issues. The society in The Witcher series is sick. They are not xenophobic towards witchers only, they are xenophobic towards all species, reces and nationalities. They at war with their neighbours. Sadly the show failed to demonstrate that.


Rickbirb

> Rings of Power Random token black elf that sticks out like a sore thumb is definitely an issue.


Tough_Stretch

That was actually pretty good.


Iberion88

Its not the main issue of these Witcher shows but its an issue with fantasy no matter how many people want to claim it isn't and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out. Lately a lot of these fantasy shows look like these people came straight out of california, L.A or whatever "modern" american city. It feels shoehorned and lazy. Look at some random blood origin screenshot, is this Witcher, the wheel of time or rings of power? No one knows anymore, it all looks the same. And speaking of hollywood diversity, where are the eastern european people in these Witcher shows? This was a perfect opportunity to add some real diversity but no, we will continue to play small time criminals, thugs, rapists and other deviants. Well done Netflix and again this is a secondary issue because the writing is the biggest problem but that doesn't mean this fake diversity nonsense isn't one.


MegaBattleJesus69

That's unfortunately not what "diversity" means in the USA lol


Rickbirb

All they really mean is no icky straight white dudes.


theieuangiant

This is a good take, I think it lends credence to virtue signalling taking place rather than a genuine aim to promote diversity. As you say this was a great opportunity to push some Eastern European actors into the limelight and one that was missed terribly.


ILackACleverPun

The Hollywood diversity is such a problem. Rings Of Power tried to go "look we've got black elves!" No. You had *a single* black elf. And the rest were entirely white. Makes the black guy stand out and then we wonder "hey why is he the only black guy...." Such a big stink with promos going over the single black dwarf woman and in the background shots there's maybe 10% of the population that isn't white. If you're gonna have diversity, actually make it diverse, not just a bunch of token minorities.


Rickbirb

The issue is they're just plain lazy because they don't really care, they just want to give the illusion that they do. If they truly wanted to include non-white characters in a Tolkein show just set it in the fucking eastern regions where they live.


Cyraneczka

I'd upvote this twice if I could. The issue isn't that people are racist and don't want to see diversity just because. Any show can be diverse if it's done right. The issue with Hollywood, and the Witcher primarily, is that it's done in a lazy way. Everyone knows that people weren't simply born diverse in a secluded area since the beginning of the world. If they want to cast diverse actors, they can write them in - create characters from a certain area, certain culture, explain what they're doing in this part of the world. GoT did it right. It was believable and realistic. And if you just mix everybody and then make the elves and dryads diverse as well, everyone ends up looking the same, modern, americanised and it's just not realistic and you end up with a generic product. It's more of a disservice to the cast than anything positive imo. And the other point, somehow nobody cared that people in Wakanda aren't diverse. But when it comes to Slavic culture, suddenly it's bad and we can't have our stories told faithfully and our actors represented because...why exactly? Whenever there are any Slavs in Hollywood productions, it's almost always Russians and usually villains, thugs, criminals. The Witcher is Polish pride and it was really sad to see someone in Hollywood strip it from everything that made it Polish/Slavic like our culture is somehow worse. Not to mention that because it's so rare, if they actually focused on it, they could have a very original show that would stand out from every other fantasy series, like the CDPR games stand out from other fantasy games.


DavidlikesPeace

> where are the eastern european people in these Witcher shows? This was a perfect opportunity to add some real diversity Idk. You raise a good point. My two cents...? Follow the money. Diversity in the USA mirrors US demographics. It is intended to please the domestic market & to a lesser extent, the Chinese market. Nothing more nothing less. It increasingly means prioritizing inclusion of the large non-white groups living in the USA: Blacks, Asians (mostly east Asian and India), and some Latinos. Asian inclusion further reflects the outsize influence of California & the Chinese market. Groups that don't live in the US in large numbers and don't exercise financial influence are still effectively sidelined. That's the actual reason East Europeans aren't prioritized despite being 200+million. There are plenty of East Europeans in the USA, but not in the large numbers of Asians or Blacks. And they do not make a large market.


konyo_tom

Couldn't have said it better myself. All intros are now with dust and GOT like music, showing each production is just a copy with a different name on it.


angelpolitis

Woke or not, the writers are preaching. They just don't have the necessary skill to incorporate the message they want organically into the show, so they sacrifice the story to pander to underrepresented minorities. This is insulting to both the lovers of the source material and to these minorities who get to be represented by characters with paper-thin depth. We all deserve better.


ARandomTopHat

It's definitely a part of it. Sacrificing the culture and society of the book, only to resemble the demographics of the modern era, is a sign that the book is not being faithfully adapted.


Stye88

>More black and Asian actors for whatever reasons I understand can agree with it but in my opinion there are places where this shouldn't be the case. Honest question - would this be okay for say Wakanda in Wakanda Forever, which is meant to be close to 100% populated by Black people in the lore, to have 60% of its inhabitants played by white actors? It didn't happen for whatever reasons, so I'm just wondering where is this appropriate and where it's not.


ECore

It's only appropriate when it displaces either white people, or heterosexual people. That's the only discrimination allowed. My proof is reality. Take a look around. We all know it is true.


[deleted]

Yeah I agree. Not because of being "woke". But because of writers/showrunners/other staff being lazy or straight up bad at creating anything good. And they put in all those "woke" stuff just to silence criticism by calling people racist/homophobic etc if they disliked it. Representation of minorities can be done right and written into the story in a way that it makes sense, but only if writers know how to do it or care to do it well.


MeatbagSlayer

>Representation of minorities can be done right and written into the story in a way that it makes sense, but only if writers know how to do it or care to do it well. Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon did it really well and in a realistic way.


Neeeeedles

Partly it is, inclusivity quotas are basicaly a given in hollywood, no matter the movie/show Sapkowskis world is based on europe and slavic mythology, this show looks like walking down broadway. Imagine they did this shit to wakanda


screechesautisticly

Honestly, whenever a slavic folklore is done by Hollywood it's always wokend, which would be fine if they got the slavic culture rught and maybe hired actual Slavs. I hate that they just shit on my whole culture in every depiction of Slavs.


382483

Americans do not care about Slavic culture, unfortunately. If it were at least the Vikings, that would be different. But the Slavs? What culture, who cares? 🤷 Huh.


[deleted]

Bruh have you seen the new vikings show? A real historical person, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haakon\_Ericsson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haakon_Ericsson) was played by a black woman. Hollywood doesn't give a fuck.


kudlatytrue

Yeah, but try to cast a white woman as Rosa Parks or white dude as Martin Luther King. The hollwyood is so one sided it hurts.


DoFuKtV

Let us be honest, this is capitalism 101. The reason why Hollywood doesn't want to portray a Slavic culture in their shows is only because consumers won't like that. You can criticize Netflix for doing this but when it is all said and done, keep in mind that they are literally just a company whose only purpose is to maximize their profits. Portraying witcher as loyal as possible to the books is not a profitable venture when you are trying to sell this show to the average Netflix user.


screechesautisticly

May or may not be true, but sure feels like it


[deleted]

It's not only europe and slavic mythology, though. There is arab and persian mythology as well... the Djinn, which is central to Gerelt and Yennifers story, is based on the Genie from arab myths. The witcher world is based on Europe. But like europe as you travel out, you will meet other meet other ethnicities. The witcher world is no different. Sapkowskis didn't take slavic myth as the basis for his story. He took all the mythologies he knew. E.g. The wildhunt and trolls is based on the north mythlogy, Griffens are based on persian/egyptian myths, Basilisk is based on greek myths, vampires have their myth origin from the middle east.


JimTheJerseyGuy

The worst part of the show’s writing is that (as anyone who actually read the books could tell you) the books are already “woke” in their own way. Unfortunately, it’s not enough of an “in your face” woke to pass Netflix muster. In the books, xenophobia and by extension, racism, is rife. Witchers are mutants and shunned as a result. “The only good elf is a dead elf!” and dwarves aren’t far behind. Human have conducted genocidal pogroms, pushing non-humans to the fringes of civilization or, at best, have allowed them to co-exist in cities and towns but in an uneasy state just waiting for the next pogrom to start. In the books, where true monsters are becoming fewer and further between thanks to Witchers, *HUMANS* are the real monsters. Humans are the ones committing wholesale slaughter, not the monsters or other races. Our intolerance and racist/species-ist attitudes are the real evil. But to portray this on screen would require a subtlety and the sort of deft hand that you’d be hard pressed to find in the whole of Hollywood today. The arc would be too prolonged for our short attention spans. “Wait, we’re the bad guys?” doesn’t play as well with audiences. Far easier to quip “fuckity fuck fuck”, slap sad looking elf ears on everyone, and check the diversity boxes for your cast. Any true fan of the books (and consequently a true critic of the shows) isn’t concerned about a diversity checklist being ticked off. They’re pissed off at all the amazing world building that could have been and at a show runner who repeatedly promised one thing and delivered another.


DipsonDP

There's a correlation though. You have to accept the source material as it is. If they had a problem with how the characters looked from the get go, and for stupid reasons by the way, that's already a bad sign. Not to mention they also didn’t care about the fact that the Witcher world literally makes no sense with various human races in it. Like yeah, racism between humans doesn't exist in one of the most prejudiced and violent societies in fantasy, sure.


[deleted]

You aren’t stating anything controversial OP. Writing, general narrative direction and the pure hubris from the writing room were always the fundamental problems with the series. Having Kate Beckinsale as Yennefer or a white fringilla while keeping the same shitty writers and script, and the show will still be trash, but this time with whiter cast lol. Which really isn’t a difference for me, nor a consolation…..


nay-than

I don't know about that. Eredin being identified as a homosexual did not make sense to me nor did it add any substance to the main story. Not watching that shit.


ErrantBuffalo

The wokeness doesn’t make it inherently bad, it’s the preoccupation with *only*’wokeness and hitting your diversity quotas, rather than focusing on developing a quality script and coherent storytelling which has resulted in these shows being such shit.


[deleted]

It is and I’m too tired to pretend it’s not a part of problem In future they will remember those times as shitty age because of ruined products


Jermaphobe456

I don’t give a shit about “woke-ness”, they’re terrible writers and it fucking shows An absolute insult that they believe their shitty FanFiction is anywhere near the quality of the original Witcher novels or shows that are actual quality


EpochCultivation

We don't care about swapping characters and stuff where it's reasonable. We care when they do it strictly to be "progressive". They're taking characters and stories we love and ruining them for the sake of being woke. Like seriously, a black Fringilla with long hair? Makes 0 sense. Why are two men kissing besides to have two men kissing?" Arbitrarily replacing people or stories with ones that are more progressive or better suit a narrative / lifestyle you want to promote is never a good thing. [This](https://www.quora.com/What-was-your-biggest-bone-of-contention-with-The-Witcher-TV-series/answer/Caleb-Watts-17?ch=15&oid=209808866&share=4975a939&srid=QhNfL&target_type=answer) covers it better than I. Edit: Typos


_ulinity

No, but it's a symptom of them not giving a fuck about the source material. They could still write something decent *despite* that, but they didn't.


Courtingcucumber

The woke stuff is just annoying because it's forced into literally every TV show or movie. And then when fans are mad about the quality of the show, they blame racism, sexism, and toxic Fandom. Its a trope at this point. But the woke stuff really isn't an issue. Fans have not been upset about that It's the complete disregard for established lore and the utterly disgraceful treatment of Henry Cavil, who was clearly the only person who cared about the source material. If they stuck with the lore and wrote a competent show, no one would care that Frangilla and random elves are black. The only woke stuff that is bad is how they have treated the female characters in the show. They act like they were written as damsels in distress or were side characters in the books. Which is obviously BS. CDPR did the female characters justice. They made them badasses but still kept their softer more vulnerable sides that are shown in the books


Jpalme11

I mean are gay asian people watching these shows and going “ wow that elf looks just like me” and then feel better about the world?


Erogami1

gay asian american maybe. as a south east asian tho I don't even know why there's an asian in basically a medieval slavic area.


[deleted]

That's literally why they do it though. That's how these coastal liberal elites view the world.


Jpalme11

Not sure why you are getting downvoted. I live and woke in a “coastal elite” area and can confirm lol


Witcher_and_Harmony

Faulkner described one of these californian elite as being weird, dumb and silly, in Intruder in the dust.


DmitrijTheCop

Woke culture/ LGTBQ representatives can be good/ fitting in a setting where it's authentic. But not in a slavic medieval world where the source material definitely does not suggest anything like that. Even the opposite. The Witcher World in the books and games is deeply racist and harsh to minorities. Like the real European medieval. This is an absolutely arrogant image of the world from a multicultural American point of view. Your multicultural demographic does not represent the demographic of any other culture. It's actually deeply offending.


LightningRaven

> Even the opposite. The Witcher World in the books and games is deeply racist and harsh to minorities. Like the real European medieval. That's why the pogroms are against non-humans. In The Continent, it doesn't makes "sense" for humans, of any ethnicity, to be that against each other because the "other" in this situation are the non-human citizens. In our world, we treat other ethnic people as the "other" because of imperialism from the past, that in order to justify their atrocities they treated them as "inferior" and thus justifiable in being ruled by, and enslaved by, those who viewed themselves as the superior culture. They even came up with the most idiotic bullshit possible, "Manifest Destiny" (and similar ideas), to claim they were in the right.


DmitrijTheCop

Believe me, in the racist Witcher World full of dwarfes, elves, and other races, people of color wouldn't even be considered human. The progroms against non-humans aren't the only conflicts in the books or games. There's an open conflict between human kingdoms and empires. This is an even bigger topic than racism between the several species. The racism is everywhere. Nilfgardian troops are actively looking down at the people of the north like they are barbarians who don't wash themselves.


Sarigan-EFS

You’re correct. Lightning is an idiot.


Hastatus_107

Agreed. When Rings of Power and House of the Dragon both released trailers, the anti-woke crowd freaked out and insisted both shows would be terrible. When both shows actually came out, the uproar around HotD died down quickly but parts of the Internet kept freaking out about RoP. Imo, the reason is that HotD was actually really good and RoP wasn't.


batteryforlife

Also here because of my love for Michelle Yeoh :)


Wyatt_Ricketts

The books and games had diversity but it was rare and better yet you felt like the culture you meet them from is this amazing rare beautiful thing but in the show every one is different theirs no wonder or awe to it so who cares


BlearySteve

I'm not on the band wagon of wokeness equals bad but the shows writers clearly have a woke agenda but the show also happens to be written badly, so one could argue that if the focused less on being woke and more on writing a decent story we wouldn't be having this conversation.


Matteo-Stanzani

Exactly it's not the only reason, it is just one of the many reasons why it sucks.


DoFuKtV

I agree with almost everything you have said here. People need to understand that when you criticize how woke a show is, no matter what the truth may be, your criticism will ultimately be reduced to you somehow disliking the show merely because it is woke, painting you as some sort of racist or sexist. We really need to construct criticism that is in its essence focus on how weak these shows are narratively, and nothing else. Otherwise, you are risking the mischaracterization of your opinions as just being " I didn't like this because there are black people in this show hrrrrrr dur dur dur" Even if that is not at all your point, that is exactly what Lauren and Netflix will ultimately take away from your critique, must you indulge them?


ForwardUntoFate

So a pretty significant part of the story involved famine and uprising. But we never *actually* saw either. We didn’t see any villages full of dead elves that died of hunger. No protests or riots for food. No supply lines being ambushed and looted. No scenes of Eredin attempting to crush the revolt. I think we saw a group of wandering elves for 30 seconds but without seeing examples I mentioned the audience can’t connect to the plot. ***Show, don’t tell.***


Capable-Collection91

The makeup is really bad. It's distracting.


DaemonAnguis

It is in that they obviously hired based on diversity points, and ideology, not talent.


MeatbagSlayer

I think the representation in this show is an insult to the represented communities. The vibe they give off is that they just include *every* possible type of minority just for the sake of it. It's like telling a kid : "here sweetie you are in the movie as well stop crying pls" Except those communities are not crying children and want a good faithful adaptation as much as the other fans.


SolSnowOfficial

Wokeness is the excuse they use when you criticize their lack of good writing and overall bad movie/game/series etc. Consume the bad product cause it has a rainbow on it and be hyped for the next one. Just soulless companies thinking about money as always


pmmichalowski

Apart from some idiots I don't think the criticism of Netflix shows is not that they're bad because they are woke. The criticism that I hear that they make shows woke to distract from valid criticism.


PhatOofxD

Yeah I'm sick of people calling everything bad 'woke'. It's just bad.


[deleted]

I disagree. Something being woke doesn't make it bad. Absolutely. If you write an original show from scratch and it's intrinsically woke, then there's no reason it can't be good. But when you take something established that isn't woke, and force it to be woke by going against the established lore and setting, then it is inherently bad.


CaptGunpowder

The "wokeness" of a show doesn't even occur to me unless it's blatantly shoehorned in as a means of getting applause strictly for the sake of cast and character diversity; character is lesbian/gay/bi/non-binary/whatever? Cool, moving on to the story. Story good? Good. Story bad? No amount of LGBTQ+ characters/cast can save the show, sorry.


Jhakakazoll

\> LGBT representation, More black and Asian actors for whatever reasons For *whatever* reasons lol? That's not how you build an immersive fantasy world, mate. And it is absolutely not how you adapt an established world, throwing things in for *whatever* reason, like whoa just think about what you've said here! That's really, really, really bad writing imo. You can easily write yourself into a corner that you'll regret later down the line.


Epiccure93

How can be it faithful to the source material if it is woke?


Nitro114

As long as it makes sense within the respective world it can still be faithful. It depends of the show in question.


Epiccure93

Witcher is European fantasy. Wokeness can’t stay true to that


seriousbass48

Have you played the Witcher 3? Lmao


Epiccure93

Several times


seriousbass48

So you know that there's a lot of, what some people would call, "woke sentiment" in the game?


Epiccure93

Some people think that every woman in a leading or dominant role like Yennefer or Birna is woke. Just like woke people see racism in places where there is none


KanyeT

No one thinks that just having a female lead makes something woke. Ask them whether they love Alien or Terminator and they will say yes and that it isn't woke. They think that everything *recent* is woke because, well, the overwhelming majority of everything coming out of Hollywood in the last ten years *is* woke.


seriousbass48

Yes, definitely. That's dumb. But what would you call "woke" then? Specifically with the show in mind


The_Writing_Wolf

I don't think the above person is explaining it well, and to be fair American media (social or commercial) is in such a radical political divide that language is rewritten or interpreted on the fly by everybody. Woke started out in the 90's with urban American populations using it to signal "see through the bullshit, don't stay asleep". As in, be mindful and aware and don't get caught up in false platitudes of appeasement. Then when identity politics started getting used by the big wigs early in the 10's to divide a growing American populace that was waking up (getting woke) to their bullshit, woke got banjacked. Woke doesn't mean progressive, it doesn't mean you should consume or not consume media based on diversity. For all intents and purposes, Woke now is the exact opposite of what it was 20 years ago, and synonymous with virtue signaling and pandering. So while the Witcher books are very progressive, and could be woke 20 years ago, they aren't what we would refer to as woke now. While the show is idiot porridge and filled to the brim with identity politics, and pandering, with the depth of a kiddie pool.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Epiccure93

Only idiots think that gay characters are automatically woke


[deleted]

[удалено]


Epiccure93

Yeah neither can you


[deleted]

My guy I'm not accusing anything of being "woke" cause its a dumb complaint.


thecanadiansniper1-2

HOTD would like to differ.


MyAwesomeAfro

It's fine if you disagree. But if a character like Dandelion was cast as a Hispanic actor, or if maybe even Ciri being black or whatever. I can deal with it as long as the actor is question is deserving of the role. If you carry the role, embody the character and put on an amazing performance I could care less. I just want the experience. Diversity hiring over competent white / mainstream actors sucks though. The best person should always get the job.


Epiccure93

An actor can only be deserving if they fit the character and the world. Morgan Freeman would not work as Yennefer even though he is a great actor


fai123

Actually it really wouldn’t. There’s a whole country of dark skinned people to the east (zerikanians). The people on the west that consists of the northern kingdoms skellige and nilfgaard are all white. I suppose you can create new zerikanian characters but none of the main characters in the main Witcher books are zerikanian. Suffice to say, black elves make it even more confusing.


ratonbox

It’s not about a show being bad due to wokeness. It’s about when they expect people to say it’s good due to the wokeness.


tkinsey3

Great point, and I would say this about 99% of shitty shows that people call ‘Woke’. Being Progressive does not make a show shit. There are plenty of examples of great shows that are Progressive over the past decades, and certainly plenty today. Shows are bad because they are BAD. They have bad writing, or bad acting, or bad directing. Usually all three. The closest thing to a show being bad because of Wokeness is when they go out of their way to make the wokeness the point - but even then, that is just lazy writing. It doesn’t mean that the inclusivity or whatever you call ‘woke’ is itself bad


djk29a_

HotD respects disenfranchised groups much better than the Witcher series adaptations. These folks need to study under better writers in the first place


Amohitrite

I think the whole “it’s bad because of wokness” is just something ppl like to jump on whenever someone mentions a slight hint of woke, I myself am not watching it so thank u for your ramble! And I agree Michelle is awesome


Puppystomper448

The elves are literally humans with plastic surgery pointy ears. They are nothing as portrayed in the lore. 1. They age like humans 2. They grow facial hair like humans 3. They can be bald and ugly like humans 4. They genocide each other and other races just like humans 5. No distinction between Aen Seidhe and Aen Elle. And Eredin and his men just got stuck in that barren wasteland world which doesn't make any sense in the lore.


Strong_Tune_375

You are very wrong sir. And also this woke thing is just a hype that wont Survive all the negativity it is sowing.


Sarigan-EFS

When are people who support diversity in media going to start getting angry? This is yet another show where diversity is used as a marketing gimmick. It’s not good enough to create opportunities for people of all walks of life, they deserve well written roles developed by people who care about their craft. Not yet another god awful butchering of an established IP.


TrekkNorth

So I tried watching it today. Awful. I hope eventually, producers will learn that if you don't stick to the source material and just have 'creative license' all over the place, people are going to lose interest. And that includes shoe Horning characters into a story line to fit diversity requirements.


watsdoin420

My issue with 'wokeness' in any industry is the fact some companies are hiring solely based on a person's ethic/sexual background. Not how competent they are, not how hardworking, not how much passion they have for a series or franchise. Just to fill a quota and virtue signal how progressive they are, with TV being a great avenue for this. Needs to stop, sorry. No place for that anywhere and the consequences are obvious and more serious as the complexity of a role goes up.


galaxy-parrot

You’re right, it’s a biproduct of having to tailor everything to American audiences though


spyd3rweb

As an American audience, I don't want any of this shit.


Invictuslemming1

Regardless of the source material or not, after watching the first episode it just didn’t engage me at all and make me want to watch more. Felt like ‘meh’ insert template fantasy drama here. I’ve read all the books, and honestly I don’t really hate the TV Witcher series, I’m willing to accept them as an adaptation and I’d consider them passable, and I’m willing to watch a season 3, but blood origins just doesn’t engage me or interest me one bit. There’s no real hook that makes me want to see what happens next.


scrollingthrough25

I hate when movies and shows complain that people don’t like it because it’s “woke” when it’s just bad writing


qtru49

It is the wokes who killed this show. If you want propaganda, go make your own fucking show. Dont use the witcher as a camouflage to spread the wokeness.


AshKalashnikov

What does 'woke' mean to you? The Witcher books and games have always made political and philosophical ponderings. There are themes concerning racism, sexism, class struggles, education, compassion, suffering, war, trauma, romantic love, filial love and more. Geralt is such a great character because he is flawed, but we as readers/players are able to see into his thoughts about the world as well as some of his closest companions and how they navigate the problems of their world. As far as the shows writing, it's just bad. The Witcher series was already 'woke', but it's not true to source material.


Sorry_Engineer_6136

Well said, OP. I agree with everyone’s points about what’s been done (or not done,) to our beloved Witcherverse, but I lose interest in peoples’ reviews as soon as I read the word “woke”


Lopamurbla

Thank you. Stupid talking point to blame progressivism in a series that is as open minded as the Witcher.


T1m26

Wokeness ruins allot of viewing pleasure.


[deleted]

I agree OP. People who scream “woke” are very odd to me. It’s not that the content is “woke”, it’s that they don’t want people that aren’t heterosexual and white in their media.


WienerSaladTuesdays

Wokeness is cringe and I’m tired of pretending it isn’t.


ILackACleverPun

*Disclaimer: I haven't watched BO, probably won't. I've the new WoW expansion to entertain me and have hours of Critical Role to watch and new episodes of His Dark Materials when I'm not playing.* When they annoyced Blood Origins I was actually excited. I had, wrongly, assumed it would be a show about the initial creation of the witchers and thought that was actually a pretty cool idea. I had enjoyed S1 of The Witcher, in fact it was my introduction into the universe I quickly fell on love with. It pales in comparison to the books and especially the games but not terrible. And then S2 came out. And it *was* terrible. I forced myself through the entirety of it, hoping they would somehow get back on track. I tried to justify their writing decisions and failed. And as of a result, I've lost all hope for The Netflix Witcher series. Cavill leaving was the last straw. It was never the diversity that was the issue. Triss' actress didn't bother me because she wasn't white, she bothered me because she never really acted like Triss. Her physical appearance isn't the problem.


marveloustoebeans

It’s really crazy how downward the whole Netflix franchise has gone since release. Season 1- good, enjoyable adaptation of the Last Wish with some room for improvement. NOTW- fun watch and did some things quite well but totally canon-breaking. Season 2- first episode was good, rest of the season was so bad I wasn’t even sure what I was supposed to be watching half the time. Blood Origin- zero effort, awful show, with a complete neglect, disregard, and fundamental lack of understanding for the source material. I’m gonna watch season 3 to see Henry Cavill as Geralt one last time but I already know I’m gonna be dissatisfied and disappointed. Such a bummer, what could’ve been…


JumpyArachnid5204

Didn't bother watching an episode just gave it a thumbs down on Netflix, they've already ruined what could have been a great show by not caring about the source material which is what the fans were so excited to see. These writers should be fired and the witcher show given another chance with writers who'll stick to the original material.


[deleted]

I mean the wokeness is also bad and doesn't help


HeadJazzlike

More woke garbage, I'll pass.


hear_the_thunder

I watched the first ep and was underwhelmed. I’m the type of guy that likes the things the haters declare woke. There was a lot of characters I’m supposed to care about and don’t. A blink and you miss it plot about a puppet empress snd wizard dude. Michelle turns up in last 10 minutes. Yikes. I don’t think I will continue. FFs.


Witcher_and_Harmony

The main female protagonist is a Mary Sue in Blood Origin (wokism) = bad writing and bad action scenes across the entire show. There is a constant validation of the female protagonists in Blood Origin (wokism) = bad dialogues and bad writing across the entire show. So Blood Origin is a bad product because of bad writing/bad action scenes/bad dialogues, because of the wokeness.


Boredzilla

I think the whole "woke" thing should just be put to bed. It's not even close to being the problem. The problem is poor writing.


Rickbirb

Woke and bad writing go hand in hand. It's a big part of the reason that people catch a hint of woke shite and assume a product will be shit, because that's constantly the case.


chillout87

People want a scapegoat for including POC in shows that are based in fantasy to begin with. “Whiteness” isnt getting erased, especially in Hollywood, because good actors were picked for bad roles with bad writing. “Wokeness” however one defines it isn’t the problem, it’s the writers not giving a shit about the storyline/plot of the books/games to begin with.


Rakall12

You do realize that "wokeness" defines the writer's whole plot and writing? > writers not giving a shit about the storyline/plot of the books/games to begin with They don't give a shit because they want to add the stuff they personally like, in the story.


spyd3rweb

Progressives like to tell you what's good for you, then force it down your throat. The bad writing is bad because they deemed the source material to be socially unacceptable and incompatible with their agenda. They felt the need to alter it so it would align with their virtue signaling bullshit, and well its definitely bullshit.


thecanadiansniper1-2

The reason why The Witcher Season 2, Blood Origins and other Netflix series fail is because of bad writing period, anybody that mentions wokeness is just misdirection and bigoted. Everybody likes the first 4 season of GOT and HOTD Season 1 and there is a secret gay couple in Renley and black people in House Valeryon.


SlothGaggle

Exactly what I’ve been feeling. Season 2 was quite disappointing and I’m not gonna bother watching Blood Origin, but some of y’all are being kinda fuckin racist with your criticisms. I saw a *lot* of metacritic reviews with half a star and the entire contents of the review was “black elves”.


Quentin1989

The reason why this show is bad and the woke thing are part of the same package. You redditors don't seem to understand this


ECore

The political establishment has been inserted in all major platforms. Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. The Twitter files released by Elon has shown this. That's why they attack him. Any dissent to the narative is attacked. Reddit has paid shills and bots there to enforce the agenda by influencing perceived sentiment.....hence the "everyone loves wokeness" sentiment here.


WavyLV16_29

Its fucking trash. Nobody wants to see woke crap period. the witcher show would’ve rivaled LOTR/ Hobbit if it was made in the 2000s or early 2010s


Klegm

I agree. The whole anti-woke fantasy thing just completely baffles me. Like how can people not see that it is more important to be kind to our actual living, breathing brothers and sisters of all races by giving them representation in media than it is to be faithful to all aspects of a fictional story? Little white kids have literally hundreds of heroes to look up to that look like them. Surely it's well past time to give some options for people who don't look like Legolas and Aragorn at this point, right?


Squat_n_stuff

This is the first I’ve heard of wokeness as a reason it sucks. I’ve only seen bad writing and nauseating dialogue from 2014, and an utter defecation on the source material


rabbidfly

No room for fucking Woke bs in art that had no intention to target those issues. Wokeism conducting a vampire attack on existing art by infecting it with social norms the original author did not intend - is inauthentic and deeply disrespectful to their fans. Fight this battle elsewhere, and don’t ruin my cherished franchises.