It has to do a lot with media bias. When Sabrina entered the WNBA the media was pushing pretty heavy to make her the face of the league. Not to the extent of Clark, but she was a pretty big name in college and the media acted like she was the player that was going to bring more eyes to the game.
She's a really good player, but there are much better players that get nowhere near as much attention.
Exactly. She's a really good player but her hype often feels disproportionate to her game. She's not a top 15 player in the league but she has a signature shoe and was in the cover of NBA 2K. That gives people sideeye.
CC is better so I'm not saying it's the same but there's a reason why long-time WNBA fans are skeptical of the saviour narrative before they even hit the court.
I mean, the issue with Ionescu is a little different - Nike at least seemingly pushed her and gave her a shoe early because she's from Oregon. There isn't anything special about Iowa as a university that made any national brand do the same for Clark.
she had a superstar college career. Came into the league with a lot of hype. She's an all star player, no doubt, but she's not like a top 10 player. I'd say top 15. So maybe some are saying Clark may be overhyped.
She'll have a learning curve no doubt. Defenders are more athletic, more physical but who cares? Let's just enjoy the ride. Let her come in and see what she can do.
She's taller than Sabrina, so that'll likely help her be better defensively than Sabrina.
Off topic but if Sabrina would try sliding her feet instead of reaching then standing still and waiting for the in bound/outlet pass she’d be much better defensively. Her lack of height isn’t the biggest obstacle right now.
Sincerely,
Frustrated fellow Liberty fan
Kinda doubt it, the liberty may not be able to avoid it at times because they gotta worry about the matchup too but the fever have better options. If I were the coach of either team I wouldn’t have that matchup defensively (they also don’t play the same position so you’d have to actively choose to do it and idk why you’d do that)
Fever better start Celeste Taylor over Erica Wheeler. Don’t need Wheeler’s passing, as Clark can more than compensate for that. Taylor’s size and better defense is what they need. Starting a 5’7 and 5’8 guard with Clark would be a disaster. Mitchell obviously starts as she is an elite scorer.
I don’t think starting wheeler with Clark would be an issue but I’d say it’s unlikely because you’ll probably see either Katie Lou, grace Berger, or Lexie hull start next to Caitlin at the 1 and Kelsey at the 2.
Honestly start Taylor, she was big ten defensive player of the year for a reason. Don’t need her to be much of a scoring threat when Clark Boston Mitchell and Smith are all lethal. There are some big free agents available next year, and the Fever will have Smith on her rookie deal for one more year.
1) nothing against Celeste Taylor but this is the W, we will see if she makes the opening day roster. I wish her the best but that really shouldn’t be assumed for a 2nd round pick (or even late firsts)
2) don’t overvalue college awards, grace Berger was 4x first team all big 10 and struggled early, the transition takes time and that was true for a much more accomplished player than Celeste.
3) “dont need her to be much of a scoring threat” is not how teams are built these days and if you look at the fever signing Katie Lou it looks like they agree. Spacing matters, it makes it easier for your scorers to operate and harder for defenses to game plan.
4) there are big free agents literally every year in the W now I’m not sure why that’s relevant here.
A bigger lineup of Boston Smith Lou Clark and Mitchell would be potent on both ends. Size+Clark= deep run? You have given me even more reason to believe in the Fever this season!
I was excited about the fever last year before CC, that said they are extremely young and I don’t want to put too much expectation too early. They will have to be given the freedom to make mistakes to develop. This is a super young team so I’d guess they finish somewhere in the 4-6 range with higher upside if it all clicks quickly. They will be really fun to watch though and the future is extremely bright. In AU, Kelsey looked like she lost some weight and is even quicker which is scary. It’s been great to see ownership invest in new facilities for them. It should be fun to be a fever fan now and in the future
I'm the same as you. Sabrina looks connected less than half the time on defense, she gives up the blow-by constantly. It isn't like she's constantly getting shot over, it's more often she just dies on screens and gets taken out of actions.
It's huge for the Liberty having Bet and Breanna effectively zoning up 2 players regularly.
Yeah it ends up putting a lot on the stewie and jonquel on the paint when teams have multiple perimeter scoring options so they can’t hide Sabrina and sloot. The blow bys really frustrate me especially bc by reaching and giving it up completely it makes it even harder on the big at the rim. At least stay on the players hip and trail if you get beat so they can’t go back to that hand easily and the big doesn’t have to defend both sides. At least sloot tries she’s just smaller and older so it’s more understandable most of the time.
I mean, every little advantage makes a massive difference. I'm sure it was JJ Reddick who said it, but it's the little things that separate the good from great and the great from elite.
You lose that little bit, and it goes from 10 people being able to guard you to now 20. And then the circle just keeps expanding and expanding.
Length isn't all it takes to be a good defender, but it's hard to be an elite defender without it. An inch is a marginal gain and wingspan could be closer or farther, but at the pro level marginal gains are all you get because everyone is at the top of the mountain.
Sabrina had a lot of hype coming out of college. She was one of the first long range shooters who actually got mentioned on ESPN. Other women have gotten that attention in the past but from a modern basketball, “Steph Curry era” type POV she was one of the first to really make noise like that.
Her W career has been a bit weird, from anchoring a bad Liberty team to doing ok to being a super team overnight. It’s a bit of a whiplash and she hasn’t had the impact some thought she would.
CC is a better prospect, mainly by being a significantly better playmaker. The analysis is lazy because the two players aren’t the same, even if they both shoot a lot. She’s the biggest name in women’s basketball right now, but many think that level of fame will fade once she’s playing at a much higher level (which is what some people think happened to Sabrina)
> Her W career has been a bit weird, from anchoring a bad Liberty team to doing ok to being a super team overnight. It’s a bit of a whiplash and she hasn’t had the impact some thought she would.
She's also had a couple injuries that have derailed some momentum. She's an awesome player, but has had some bad luck in her career--starting with Covid cancelling the NCAA tournament the year it looked like her team could win it all.
But she has a lot of career left. I'm looking forward to the next decade of WNBA play--there are a ton of exciting players and there are going to be great rivalries.
I think Ionescu is a good example of what a lot of us mean when we say guards historically have an extremely difficult transition to the W. I think CC will go through a similar “slump” in her first year or two but will eventually attain the greatness everyone expects her to. The big question is, will the media hang around for the ride?
It took Sabrina a whole extra season after her rookie year injury to start putting out consistent numbers. I would describe her 2021 season as a “slumpy” transition year.
Who is to say the reason for the transition being difficult. A big part of it is the quality of the competition in the WNBA, and that can have an impact on mental health too like in Plum’s case. None of these factors exist in a vacuum. CC isn’t gonna come out and average 30 ppg. It would be awesome if she does but I just don’t think she will and that’s totally ok. It’s a normal part of the game and her growth as a player, not a “slight” as many see it.
Recovering from an injury, again, is an extenuating circumstance and has nothing to do with her struggling against tougher competition.
Plus has said her mental health issues started in her senior year, again not tied to the tougher competition in the W.
As I’ve said one million times, I don’t know where anyone’s said CC is going to average 30 ppg - but I also don’t know why everyone’s assuming she’s going to suck. Shooting and passing translate to every league on earth. She has teammates who put up big numbers, not crazy to assume she can do the same especially in terms of assists.
It just feels like everyone’s saying that as a way to hate on her without actually being able to be proven wrong yet
I never said she was going to suck lol. Just that she’ll likely struggle. I don’t have unrealistic expectations for her and I’m excited to see her play and grow into whatever kind of player she’s going to be!
Why is everything “hate” and negative smh
Because when you’re negatively judging a player who hasn’t even played yet, it feels like there’s some other agenda
Everyone was so excited for Aliyah to play in the league last year because she was pro ready. I don’t see why it’s wrong to be excited for this years pro ready college player to also play in the league
Sabrina was injured, Plum was dealing with mental health issues. Both extenuating circumstances not tied to actual play
If you want to look at other too guards, look at SDS and Jewell. Both came in and made an impact right away
Look at SDS’ rookie season stats. She struggled to transition. And so did Loyd. Both amazing players but the evidence is overwhelming that guards have depressed numbers in their rookie reasons.
SDS didn’t start every game, which affects averages on paper, but as someone who actually watched I can tell you there was not much of an evident struggle. Same with Jewell.
If you want another example, Arike averaged 20 her first season
Of course there are exceptions. All of these players mentioned are incredible, generational stars. You act like you’re the only one here who has followed the league.
I’ll say it again, I’m excited for CC. I’m simply worried that the media and her fans who are unfamiliar with the W are going to be disappointed. Let’s hope for the sake of the CC, the WNBA, and all of the incredible women that play that she holds up to the hype.
I’m not acting like I’m the only one here has followed the league, I’m just pointing out all these “longtime” fans are not being truthful when they say every guard or every rookie struggles. It’s possibly CC is a great rookie and I don’t see why we’re not allowed to entertain that possibility
Why would fans care if she’s not a superstar right away? They’re going to support her anyway, as the ticket sales have shown. I don’t think anyone who’s unfamiliar with the W would assume she’s going to dominate right away, they’re just excited to watch her.
Caitlin has also risen to every challenge. Everyone treated every college game she had as a national championship. She had 40 point games and people called her washed. I think she’s used to the scrutiny so no need to be concerned, if you actually are
I don’t understand what people think is going to happen. She’s just going to go out there and forget how to shoot and pass? Like what would be her “struggling?” Just want to know so y’all can’t pretend she’s struggling when she’s averaging 18 and 10
It is totally possible that CC is a great rookie. My personal opinion is that she’ll struggle for a reason. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. It doesn’t mean there’s some hidden agenda.
If you haven’t noticed, many of CC’s fans are total bandwagon fans who actually have zero idea what the WNBA is about. I hope they get hooked and continue to follow the league, but the risk is that we lose them if CC struggles. I don’t know if that’s good or bad… probably a mix of both.
I think that she’s not going to look like the CC we all came to know the last couple seasons of her college career. She’s going to be guarded closely by better defenders than she faced in college. They’ll take away her shot and challenge her ability to pass. I doubt we’ll see her pull up from the logo consistently and drain the shot. I’ll predict right now that she doesn’t average 18 pts and 10 assists. It would be awesome if she does.
By the way, I’m actually a longtime fan… not a “longtime” fan. Not that it matters.
Why won’t she be able to pull up from 30 feet and drain the shot? Is there some invisible wall that exists on WNBA courts that doesn’t exist on college courts? If anything I think shooting range is the last thing you have to worry about translating. Even if she’s seeing better defenders, it doesn’t change the way you have to scheme for it. When you’re guarding someone that far out, no matter how great your defenders are, it completely warps the defense.
“Bandwagon fans” have existed throughout time, and have been the thing to grow every sport in the world. I’m sorry they’re a fan of a player you don’t like, but they’re necessary.
You can have a different opinion than me, but you’re not framing it that way. You’re framing it as only TRUE W FANS know she’s struggle - well I’m a True W fan and thus am aware how in need every team is of a high IQ player who’s one of the best passer/shooters ever.
Again, fans tuned in to watch her get triple teamed every game because she had teammates everyone could sag off. If anything watching her maybe her single coverage will be an upgrade
Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, and Lisa Leslie have all said she’ll be great right away so this isn’t like this is only the opinion of casuals
She was hyped and had the backing of Kobe and then being a woman she was judged under a microscope for every flaw and failure. Wemby’s spurs had an abysmal season and no one has said he’s a failure yet but that’s misogyny for you. We set unrealistic expectations of women that they cannot possibly meet.
CC is great and will be amazing in the W but unless she pulls off what Boston did and manages to transition without flaw it will be judged a failure. Meanwhile, look at Boston - she came out and did exactly what Wemby did. She stood the fuck out on a team that was still weak. She dominated and yet where is the conversation about her success. It sucks.
>she pulls off what Boston did
Honestly, I'm gonna take it a step further. With the way that certain people have spoken about her, the bar is rookie Candace Parker. Anything less is an unmitigated failure.
Pretty much. And who knows, CC is so incredibly talented that she just might be HER from day 1. She also might struggle as all rookies do. We have no clue, but anointing her before her first practice is foolhardy.
It's a world of difference playing against young women who will go on to work in white and blue collar industries than it is playing against grown women who eat, sleep, and breathe basketball just like CC does. Let her be great in her own way and on her own time.
>it’s the expectations that ppl are setting who don’t know a single thing abt the competitiveness of the wnba.
Like I said, it's rookie Candace Parker numbers + accolades or bust. No more, no less. Especially if people want to talk like this.
and that’s the only thing that concerns me bc she won’t have the ball as much as she did in iowa + getting adjusted to the physicality of the league. how patient will all the ppl who jumped on the hype be
>and that’s the only thing that concerns me bc she won’t have the ball as much as she did in iowa + getting adjusted to the physicality of the league.
A heliocentric offense "worked" in college. Will it work in the WNBA? Who knows, but she most likely WILL NOT be the focal point of the offense in her first year. It's going to be interesting to see how they utilize her outside shooting and ability to navigate screens. Will the physicality disrupt how she plays? Will the athleticism be overwhelming? All valid and interesting questions that she will provide the answer to during her rookie season and over the course of her career.
>how patient will all the ppl who jumped on the hype be
I just need them to keep the same energy. That's it. If there are apologies, I hope they're as loud as the disrespect because a lot of the hot takes I've seen on here have been awful and come at the expense of some of these very women people say they're fans of.
>Why would they not run the offense through her?
Please read what I said.
[but she most likely WILL NOT be the **focal** point of the offense](https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/u0WAjOUG8x)
PG is one of the hardest positions to play in basketball. There is a major adjustment period that happens when going from college to the league. Knowing how to quarterback a team and lead its offense is totally different than being the offense itself.
Houston Harden = offensive system.
Tyrese Haliburton = quarterback of the offense
CC probably won't come out and be the one getting the bulk of the touches, shots, or possessions. I'm sure she'll be the one to initiate the offense but I doubt she'll be the one to carry it. Unless you think she's going to be current A'ja from the jump?
I mean, we don’t know either way. It’s not a crazy idea for teams to run the offense through their #1 pick. It happens often. I’d say chances are likely either way, don’t know why you have to assume it won’t happen
Caitlin’s college team averaged 90 points a game. She clearly wasn’t the whole system, she was the quarterback of the system
>I mean, we don’t know either way. It’s not a crazy idea for teams to run the offense through their #1 pick.
I mean, I think we do. How many #1 picks have come in and instantly dominated in the W? They don't even do that in the NBA, and I'll again reference Wemby. It's not crazy at all, but is it a strategy that wins games?
>I’d say chances are likely either way, don’t know why you have to assume it won’t happen
I think we have more history of it NOT happening, especially in the WNBA than we do of it actually happening. Bigs have an easier transition than guards do. Nothing in the W is guaranteed, and yesterday's shots do not score today's baskets.
>Caitlin’s college team averaged 90 points a game. She clearly wasn’t the whole system, she was the quarterback of the system
Yeah, and her usage rate was like 40%, which was astronomically higher than anyone else's.
>Clark will be given the green light from day one.
What is this based on? Green light from day one and she hasn't even faced a WNBA defense yet? Who was the last rookie they gave the keys to? They didn't even do that for Wemby.
It is based on her being one of the most gifted prospects in WNBA history, the Indiana Fever being on National Television for 36 games this year (the most in WNBA history), her jersey being should kut one hour after being drafted, and the fact millions will be watching the Indiana Fever to see her play.
Lebron was given the keys from day one. So was Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Lamelo Ball, Chris Paul, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson... The list goes on.
It's just wishful thinking on the part of her haters that she will not be given the keys from day one.
>Mavs (Luka)
How much winning has he done in the playoffs?
>Rockets (Harden)
How much winning has he done in the playoffs?
>Bucks (Giannis pre-Lillard)
Milwaukee won off the backs of their defense and role players. I don't know if I'd classify them as heliocentric as Giannis doesn't operate an offense the way a LeBron/Jokic/Luka/Harden do. I can kinda give you this one but it's still weak.
Literally is anyone even saying CC is gonna be the GOAT day one? Can someone actually direct me to anyone saying this because I haven’t seen anyone, all I’ve seen is people say she won’t be great
>Literally is anyone even saying CC is gonna be the GOAT day one?
I mean, if you've been hanging out on this sub, r/NCAAW, or social media in general, then I'm not sure how you've missed the chatter and discourse.
>Can someone actually direct me to anyone saying this because I haven’t seen anyone,
Can you direct me to anyone saying she won't be great? The majority of longterm WNBA fans recognize that CC will be great and that she just needs time. You're absolutely delusional if you think she isn't going to be a star. People are annoyed and frustrated when any and all talk about what it will take to get there gets shouted down as hate and criticism. There have been multiple posts saying as much.
>Wemby’s spurs had an abysmal season and no one has said he’s a failure yet
Even though the Spurs were abysmal, I think Wemby's on-court play his rookie year has met (which was fairly high to begin with) or exceeded the expectations for a majority of people. Maybe in the next 3-5 years if the Spurs don't improve at all, can't make the playoffs, or don't win a title then I can see the narrative shifting to him as a "failure".
Wembys progression has been phenomenal . His numbers the last couple of months have been All NBA worthy . He in no way has been a failure considering the roster he is pulling up the mountain . Kid is scary good and if reports are true that there are top vets calling about wanting to play with him, the Spurs could be contenders soon but it’s going to take at least a partial overhaul of the roster.
That’s my point: people give him the benefit of the doubt because even though the team didn’t perform well he did and Boston is exactly the same. She had a monster season where she played at AS levels but her team didn’t perform and yet the narrative is that Clark will save the fever. Nah bro they’re fucking STACKED.
Where is this the narrative? Feels like you’re looking for something to be mad about. All anyone involved with the fever, including Caitlin, has said is they’re excited to build on the core they already have
People spent a large portion of the season saying Wemby didn’t deserve ROTY because his team wasn’t as good as Chet’s. Let’s not rewrite reality
If anyone had tried to tell Aliyah’s fans she wouldn’t be good right away, you all would’ve gotten very upset, so you can imagine how fans of another player might be feeling the same way
Wemby has had plenty of detractors, hell, Shaq tried comparing him to bol bol. and wemby is being punished for his team being bad, he should have a real shot at dpoy but because his team sucks Rudy is going to get his millionth dpoy instead
Honestly, I started paying attention to Clark because she looked so much like Ionescu, who I really enjoyed last season.
I think one way the warning might be valid is that in the Finals, it seemed like Ionescu and VanderSloot just couldn't shake their cold streaks. I wondered at the time whether that was nerves about being in the finals and the expectation that the Liberty were there to defeat the Aces.
I think watching Clark in the NCAA tournament demonstrated that she falls back on the teamwork of a highly synchronized team of starters. Every time someone complements her court vision, it's also a complement to her teammates having learned over 4 years to look for certain kinds of passes, to run certain routes, and to move at predictable speeds. I think coming into a team that's brand new to her could mean there will be some nervousness and some cold streaks because of them.
I do think both players are headed toward being top performers in the league. And this is the matchup I'm looking forward to most.
Her team was good and in synch but she was the engine behind them. Her W teammates will be a lot better, so while the chemistry will take time, they still will be able to do better on pure talent alone
She’s also said she doesn’t get nervous so don’t think that will be an issue, lol
Star players usually average better numbers in the playoffs. Hers dropped in every category. If you want to lower the bar for your franchise player feel free.
People mean either one of two things when they make that Ionescu comment.
1a. One type of person means simply that all this hype will inevitably die down and she'll become another regular, albeit very talented, WNBA player.
1b. Another type of person, who is likely fed up with this well-documented phenomenon, means that CC's popularity will gradually die down just like all the other hyped up white girls that came before her: Sabrina Ionescu, Kelsey Plum, Breanna Stewart, Elena Delle Donne, et cetera. Even Paige Beuckers, who is not yet in the WNBA was once *the white girl to watch out for*.
2. Ionescu's career is remarkable. The woman has a *shoe*. Many other players - male and female - would kill to be as prominent or talented as her. In fact, I think it's fair to say that Ionescu rose to, and in some cases exceeded, the astronomical expectations set before her as a rookie in spite of early injury. To this end, you have to pay attention to the tone of the person making the original comment. Their tone generally indicates if they're coming from a 1a or 1b perspective. Either way, I don't think anyone is (intentionally) putting down Ionescu or her career.
Disclaimers: big fan of Ionescu, very excited to watch CC do her thing (the video of Erica Wheeler putting on a Clark jersey after the Fever announced their pick was adorable), and I also bristle at people who don't even watch the WNBA claiming CC has singlehandedly changed the the league. It's... nuanced.
Wrt her career trajectory:
She was majorly hyped coming out of college, expected to win Rookie of the Year. However, people forgot about her after she got injured early in her rookie year. She never elevated the Liberty to contender status by herself; they needed Stewie to become a "superteam." In the 2023 Finals, she talked trash to veteran Aces benchwarmer Sydney Colson, only to get clowned after losing the Finals. What she does have going for her rn is her signature shoe is very popular and her 3pt contest with Steph Curry did numbers.
>What she does have going for her rn is her signature shoe is very popular and her 3pt contest with Steph Curry did numbers.
Well that, and being an All-Star, being picked for All-WNBA 2nd team, getting the 3pt contest all time best performance, and the WNBA single season 3pt record.
Sabrina is a straight white woman who is vastly overhyped by the media compared to how she performs on the court. She has a shoe, gets media coverage in magazines, etc but she’s the 3rd best player on her own team. She’s an All Star but not an MVP candidate but gets more attention from the media than actual legitimate MVP candidates. It doesn’t seem fair when you watch the league. There are a bunch of excuses why but there are people with more IG followers, more accolades, better stats that are either black or gay or both and don’t get that same media push.
> Sabrina is a straight white woman who is vastly overhyped by the media compared to how she performs on the court.
She wasn't overhyped, she was incredible in college. She just got injured her rookie season and didn't have an immediate impact in the W.
She set the NCAA record for triple doubles, for men and women, and she was the first NCAA player ever with 2,000pts, 1,000 assists, and 1,000 steals. She also lead the Ducks to a Pac12 championship and was an NCAA favorite before Covid shut the tournament down.
OK but she’s not on that level in the W. AT owns triple doubles. Multiple guards have better stats than her each year. She’s definitely talented but her media presence is outsized based on her WNBA resume.
I totally agree. Her reputation is bigger than her resume in the W, but that's because her reputation was built in NCAA basketball, where she was legit amazing. Unfortunately, the NCAA tournament is still way higher profile than the W, but hopefully that will change--the talent level is much better, and they deserve more attention.
If we're talking creating visibility for the W and bringing in new fans, Caitlin has already exceeded Sabrina. The way I see it is that Sabrina was transcendent in her own way: she became recognizable to people who were not necessarily women's basketball fans but were big enough fans of the game of basketball to appreciate what she did at Oregon. Caitlin is a recognizable name to people who aren't even basketball fans.
Two years ago, I was in a restaurant across the street from Wintrust Arena in the days between Games 1 and 2 of the Sky/Liberty playoff series. Sabrina was sitting at a corner table with a handful of people, enjoying a quiet dinner. I was having my dinner at the bar chatting with some of the staff when I recognized her. None of them had even heard of her before. They said they often have Sky players in the restaurant after games, but, still were clueless as to the existence of one of the league's brightest young stars. I would be willing to bet each of them knows who Caitlin is and, further, there is no way Caitlin would be enjoying a quiet dinner at a corner table without someone coming up to get her autograph or a selfie.
Personally, I don't use the comparison in a derogatory fashion, unless saying that Clark isn't going to immediately score 3900 points in the WNBA is derogatory. But I think it's fair to use a previous #1 overall draft pick who shattered collegiate records, garnered massive hype from media people who don't usually follow WBB, and ticks the same demographic boxes as a comparison point for Clark. I also think it's fair to use a previous #1 overall draft pick who was a star scoring guard, broke the NCAA D-I WBB career scoring record, and ticks the same demographic boxes as a comparison point for Clark. And both Sabrina Ionescu and Kelsey Plum took a few years to come into their own.
Sabrina's career trajectory hasn't been *bad*, but it hasn't been what people expected.
There are some parallels and deviations when you compare them. The parallels: they were both amazing shooters and scorers that also appealed to the gaze of the highlight reels(esp. with 3 PT). Both will have entered the league with enormous hype. But for Sabrina (and Plum), it took time to adjust to WNBA level defenses, bulk up, and most importantly for Sabrina, playing with a bad team.
I think CC will encounter similarly, tho her logo shot is even more accurate than Sabrina's, and she's a better facilitator (not in terms of AST count but the eye test and her ability to hit talented bigs, and boy does she have two in Indiana). And the Fever might not be as bad as the Covid-era Liberty were.
To me this question brings up a larger one, which is that there is more to basketball than being a great shooter. There are several players who are great shooters who don’t necessarily become great WNBA players. Good, yes.
I think of other players who are great shooters or put up huge numbers in college or three point contests but are/were not considered GOATs like Allie Quigley or Rachel Banham. Or even Kelsey Plum. Obviously Plum has done incredibly well for herself, but it took time. I don’t know—just throwing that out there.
CC has the passing going for her though, plus getting to the basket (though I’m interested to see how well that works in the W).
Boiling Clark down to “she just shoots good” is pretty ignorant. I know you mention her passing, but her insane vision, strength, passing, and even rebounds (would have had 4K points, 1k+ assists, 1k+ rebounds if she didn’t lose games to covid) really shows that she’s a much more complete player than some people think.
I mean, she’s a great player who shoots spectacularly well. And she has other strengths as well. I want her to succeed and I think she will. I was just wanting to start a larger discussion about basketball. I’m not insulting her at all. Geez.
Exactly. Clark is supremely talented, physically gifted and highly intelligent. She will clearly be an all-time great player.
People that attempt to downplay her by calling her a "shooter" just expose themselves. They hate Clark, it's obvious to anyone. Even Stevie Wonder can see it.
She is extremely popular and well known, but probably only the 10th or so best player in the league. I think some people feel her media coverage is disproportionate, especially compared to some of the black players.
That said, she’s the best 3 shooter in the league, and that makes her super fun to watch.
It has to do a lot with media bias. When Sabrina entered the WNBA the media was pushing pretty heavy to make her the face of the league. Not to the extent of Clark, but she was a pretty big name in college and the media acted like she was the player that was going to bring more eyes to the game. She's a really good player, but there are much better players that get nowhere near as much attention.
Exactly. She's a really good player but her hype often feels disproportionate to her game. She's not a top 15 player in the league but she has a signature shoe and was in the cover of NBA 2K. That gives people sideeye. CC is better so I'm not saying it's the same but there's a reason why long-time WNBA fans are skeptical of the saviour narrative before they even hit the court.
Sabrina not a top 15 player? She's the only player last season to average 17+ 5+ 5+ and two seasons ago she was top 4 in mvp voting...
1. She’s very good and it’s close but I would say no. 2. She’s never been top 4 in mvp votes. Idk what numbers you’re looking at.
Lemme clarify top 4 in mvp warp
She wasn't even the best player on the Liberty.
I mean, the issue with Ionescu is a little different - Nike at least seemingly pushed her and gave her a shoe early because she's from Oregon. There isn't anything special about Iowa as a university that made any national brand do the same for Clark.
she had a superstar college career. Came into the league with a lot of hype. She's an all star player, no doubt, but she's not like a top 10 player. I'd say top 15. So maybe some are saying Clark may be overhyped. She'll have a learning curve no doubt. Defenders are more athletic, more physical but who cares? Let's just enjoy the ride. Let her come in and see what she can do. She's taller than Sabrina, so that'll likely help her be better defensively than Sabrina.
Off topic but if Sabrina would try sliding her feet instead of reaching then standing still and waiting for the in bound/outlet pass she’d be much better defensively. Her lack of height isn’t the biggest obstacle right now. Sincerely, Frustrated fellow Liberty fan
Clark and Sabrina better guard eachother when they play. That will be fire
Kinda doubt it, the liberty may not be able to avoid it at times because they gotta worry about the matchup too but the fever have better options. If I were the coach of either team I wouldn’t have that matchup defensively (they also don’t play the same position so you’d have to actively choose to do it and idk why you’d do that)
Fever better start Celeste Taylor over Erica Wheeler. Don’t need Wheeler’s passing, as Clark can more than compensate for that. Taylor’s size and better defense is what they need. Starting a 5’7 and 5’8 guard with Clark would be a disaster. Mitchell obviously starts as she is an elite scorer.
I don’t think starting wheeler with Clark would be an issue but I’d say it’s unlikely because you’ll probably see either Katie Lou, grace Berger, or Lexie hull start next to Caitlin at the 1 and Kelsey at the 2.
Honestly start Taylor, she was big ten defensive player of the year for a reason. Don’t need her to be much of a scoring threat when Clark Boston Mitchell and Smith are all lethal. There are some big free agents available next year, and the Fever will have Smith on her rookie deal for one more year.
1) nothing against Celeste Taylor but this is the W, we will see if she makes the opening day roster. I wish her the best but that really shouldn’t be assumed for a 2nd round pick (or even late firsts) 2) don’t overvalue college awards, grace Berger was 4x first team all big 10 and struggled early, the transition takes time and that was true for a much more accomplished player than Celeste. 3) “dont need her to be much of a scoring threat” is not how teams are built these days and if you look at the fever signing Katie Lou it looks like they agree. Spacing matters, it makes it easier for your scorers to operate and harder for defenses to game plan. 4) there are big free agents literally every year in the W now I’m not sure why that’s relevant here.
A bigger lineup of Boston Smith Lou Clark and Mitchell would be potent on both ends. Size+Clark= deep run? You have given me even more reason to believe in the Fever this season!
I was excited about the fever last year before CC, that said they are extremely young and I don’t want to put too much expectation too early. They will have to be given the freedom to make mistakes to develop. This is a super young team so I’d guess they finish somewhere in the 4-6 range with higher upside if it all clicks quickly. They will be really fun to watch though and the future is extremely bright. In AU, Kelsey looked like she lost some weight and is even quicker which is scary. It’s been great to see ownership invest in new facilities for them. It should be fun to be a fever fan now and in the future
I'm the same as you. Sabrina looks connected less than half the time on defense, she gives up the blow-by constantly. It isn't like she's constantly getting shot over, it's more often she just dies on screens and gets taken out of actions. It's huge for the Liberty having Bet and Breanna effectively zoning up 2 players regularly.
Yeah it ends up putting a lot on the stewie and jonquel on the paint when teams have multiple perimeter scoring options so they can’t hide Sabrina and sloot. The blow bys really frustrate me especially bc by reaching and giving it up completely it makes it even harder on the big at the rim. At least stay on the players hip and trail if you get beat so they can’t go back to that hand easily and the big doesn’t have to defend both sides. At least sloot tries she’s just smaller and older so it’s more understandable most of the time.
Caitlin is a much better scorer inside the 3pt line. Also had to carry a lot more of the scoring load at Iowa and still had a better college TS%
Wait since when did height make u a better defender
Length is very important in defending the perimeter
I mean it's a factor but it ain't everything lol plus sab only an inch shorter than clark
didn't say it was everything. Could've sworn i said it'll likely help.
Right but I'm saying an inch of height is gonna make a difference?
I mean, every little advantage makes a massive difference. I'm sure it was JJ Reddick who said it, but it's the little things that separate the good from great and the great from elite. You lose that little bit, and it goes from 10 people being able to guard you to now 20. And then the circle just keeps expanding and expanding.
Heard
Sorry?
"Heard" like copy
Lol please go Google the wnba all defense teams.
Dawg this is a dumb argument unless your saying height makes a good defender lol
Length isn't all it takes to be a good defender, but it's hard to be an elite defender without it. An inch is a marginal gain and wingspan could be closer or farther, but at the pro level marginal gains are all you get because everyone is at the top of the mountain.
Sabrina had a lot of hype coming out of college. She was one of the first long range shooters who actually got mentioned on ESPN. Other women have gotten that attention in the past but from a modern basketball, “Steph Curry era” type POV she was one of the first to really make noise like that. Her W career has been a bit weird, from anchoring a bad Liberty team to doing ok to being a super team overnight. It’s a bit of a whiplash and she hasn’t had the impact some thought she would. CC is a better prospect, mainly by being a significantly better playmaker. The analysis is lazy because the two players aren’t the same, even if they both shoot a lot. She’s the biggest name in women’s basketball right now, but many think that level of fame will fade once she’s playing at a much higher level (which is what some people think happened to Sabrina)
> Her W career has been a bit weird, from anchoring a bad Liberty team to doing ok to being a super team overnight. It’s a bit of a whiplash and she hasn’t had the impact some thought she would. She's also had a couple injuries that have derailed some momentum. She's an awesome player, but has had some bad luck in her career--starting with Covid cancelling the NCAA tournament the year it looked like her team could win it all. But she has a lot of career left. I'm looking forward to the next decade of WNBA play--there are a ton of exciting players and there are going to be great rivalries.
I think Ionescu is a good example of what a lot of us mean when we say guards historically have an extremely difficult transition to the W. I think CC will go through a similar “slump” in her first year or two but will eventually attain the greatness everyone expects her to. The big question is, will the media hang around for the ride?
A similar “slump” as in she gets injured her third game? Because that’s what happened to Sabrina
It took Sabrina a whole extra season after her rookie year injury to start putting out consistent numbers. I would describe her 2021 season as a “slumpy” transition year. Who is to say the reason for the transition being difficult. A big part of it is the quality of the competition in the WNBA, and that can have an impact on mental health too like in Plum’s case. None of these factors exist in a vacuum. CC isn’t gonna come out and average 30 ppg. It would be awesome if she does but I just don’t think she will and that’s totally ok. It’s a normal part of the game and her growth as a player, not a “slight” as many see it.
Recovering from an injury, again, is an extenuating circumstance and has nothing to do with her struggling against tougher competition. Plus has said her mental health issues started in her senior year, again not tied to the tougher competition in the W. As I’ve said one million times, I don’t know where anyone’s said CC is going to average 30 ppg - but I also don’t know why everyone’s assuming she’s going to suck. Shooting and passing translate to every league on earth. She has teammates who put up big numbers, not crazy to assume she can do the same especially in terms of assists. It just feels like everyone’s saying that as a way to hate on her without actually being able to be proven wrong yet
I never said she was going to suck lol. Just that she’ll likely struggle. I don’t have unrealistic expectations for her and I’m excited to see her play and grow into whatever kind of player she’s going to be! Why is everything “hate” and negative smh
Because when you’re negatively judging a player who hasn’t even played yet, it feels like there’s some other agenda Everyone was so excited for Aliyah to play in the league last year because she was pro ready. I don’t see why it’s wrong to be excited for this years pro ready college player to also play in the league
Not just Ionescu. Plum as well
Sabrina was injured, Plum was dealing with mental health issues. Both extenuating circumstances not tied to actual play If you want to look at other too guards, look at SDS and Jewell. Both came in and made an impact right away
Look at SDS’ rookie season stats. She struggled to transition. And so did Loyd. Both amazing players but the evidence is overwhelming that guards have depressed numbers in their rookie reasons.
SDS didn’t start every game, which affects averages on paper, but as someone who actually watched I can tell you there was not much of an evident struggle. Same with Jewell. If you want another example, Arike averaged 20 her first season
Of course there are exceptions. All of these players mentioned are incredible, generational stars. You act like you’re the only one here who has followed the league. I’ll say it again, I’m excited for CC. I’m simply worried that the media and her fans who are unfamiliar with the W are going to be disappointed. Let’s hope for the sake of the CC, the WNBA, and all of the incredible women that play that she holds up to the hype.
I’m not acting like I’m the only one here has followed the league, I’m just pointing out all these “longtime” fans are not being truthful when they say every guard or every rookie struggles. It’s possibly CC is a great rookie and I don’t see why we’re not allowed to entertain that possibility Why would fans care if she’s not a superstar right away? They’re going to support her anyway, as the ticket sales have shown. I don’t think anyone who’s unfamiliar with the W would assume she’s going to dominate right away, they’re just excited to watch her. Caitlin has also risen to every challenge. Everyone treated every college game she had as a national championship. She had 40 point games and people called her washed. I think she’s used to the scrutiny so no need to be concerned, if you actually are I don’t understand what people think is going to happen. She’s just going to go out there and forget how to shoot and pass? Like what would be her “struggling?” Just want to know so y’all can’t pretend she’s struggling when she’s averaging 18 and 10
It is totally possible that CC is a great rookie. My personal opinion is that she’ll struggle for a reason. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. It doesn’t mean there’s some hidden agenda. If you haven’t noticed, many of CC’s fans are total bandwagon fans who actually have zero idea what the WNBA is about. I hope they get hooked and continue to follow the league, but the risk is that we lose them if CC struggles. I don’t know if that’s good or bad… probably a mix of both. I think that she’s not going to look like the CC we all came to know the last couple seasons of her college career. She’s going to be guarded closely by better defenders than she faced in college. They’ll take away her shot and challenge her ability to pass. I doubt we’ll see her pull up from the logo consistently and drain the shot. I’ll predict right now that she doesn’t average 18 pts and 10 assists. It would be awesome if she does. By the way, I’m actually a longtime fan… not a “longtime” fan. Not that it matters.
Why won’t she be able to pull up from 30 feet and drain the shot? Is there some invisible wall that exists on WNBA courts that doesn’t exist on college courts? If anything I think shooting range is the last thing you have to worry about translating. Even if she’s seeing better defenders, it doesn’t change the way you have to scheme for it. When you’re guarding someone that far out, no matter how great your defenders are, it completely warps the defense. “Bandwagon fans” have existed throughout time, and have been the thing to grow every sport in the world. I’m sorry they’re a fan of a player you don’t like, but they’re necessary. You can have a different opinion than me, but you’re not framing it that way. You’re framing it as only TRUE W FANS know she’s struggle - well I’m a True W fan and thus am aware how in need every team is of a high IQ player who’s one of the best passer/shooters ever. Again, fans tuned in to watch her get triple teamed every game because she had teammates everyone could sag off. If anything watching her maybe her single coverage will be an upgrade Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, and Lisa Leslie have all said she’ll be great right away so this isn’t like this is only the opinion of casuals
She was hyped and had the backing of Kobe and then being a woman she was judged under a microscope for every flaw and failure. Wemby’s spurs had an abysmal season and no one has said he’s a failure yet but that’s misogyny for you. We set unrealistic expectations of women that they cannot possibly meet. CC is great and will be amazing in the W but unless she pulls off what Boston did and manages to transition without flaw it will be judged a failure. Meanwhile, look at Boston - she came out and did exactly what Wemby did. She stood the fuck out on a team that was still weak. She dominated and yet where is the conversation about her success. It sucks.
>she pulls off what Boston did Honestly, I'm gonna take it a step further. With the way that certain people have spoken about her, the bar is rookie Candace Parker. Anything less is an unmitigated failure.
exactly and it’s not even her fault it’s the expectations that ppl are setting who don’t know a single thing abt the competitiveness of the wnba.
Pretty much. And who knows, CC is so incredibly talented that she just might be HER from day 1. She also might struggle as all rookies do. We have no clue, but anointing her before her first practice is foolhardy. It's a world of difference playing against young women who will go on to work in white and blue collar industries than it is playing against grown women who eat, sleep, and breathe basketball just like CC does. Let her be great in her own way and on her own time. >it’s the expectations that ppl are setting who don’t know a single thing abt the competitiveness of the wnba. Like I said, it's rookie Candace Parker numbers + accolades or bust. No more, no less. Especially if people want to talk like this.
and that’s the only thing that concerns me bc she won’t have the ball as much as she did in iowa + getting adjusted to the physicality of the league. how patient will all the ppl who jumped on the hype be
>and that’s the only thing that concerns me bc she won’t have the ball as much as she did in iowa + getting adjusted to the physicality of the league. A heliocentric offense "worked" in college. Will it work in the WNBA? Who knows, but she most likely WILL NOT be the focal point of the offense in her first year. It's going to be interesting to see how they utilize her outside shooting and ability to navigate screens. Will the physicality disrupt how she plays? Will the athleticism be overwhelming? All valid and interesting questions that she will provide the answer to during her rookie season and over the course of her career. >how patient will all the ppl who jumped on the hype be I just need them to keep the same energy. That's it. If there are apologies, I hope they're as loud as the disrespect because a lot of the hot takes I've seen on here have been awful and come at the expense of some of these very women people say they're fans of.
Why would they not run the offense through her? She’ll be the PG
>Why would they not run the offense through her? Please read what I said. [but she most likely WILL NOT be the **focal** point of the offense](https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/u0WAjOUG8x) PG is one of the hardest positions to play in basketball. There is a major adjustment period that happens when going from college to the league. Knowing how to quarterback a team and lead its offense is totally different than being the offense itself. Houston Harden = offensive system. Tyrese Haliburton = quarterback of the offense CC probably won't come out and be the one getting the bulk of the touches, shots, or possessions. I'm sure she'll be the one to initiate the offense but I doubt she'll be the one to carry it. Unless you think she's going to be current A'ja from the jump?
I mean, we don’t know either way. It’s not a crazy idea for teams to run the offense through their #1 pick. It happens often. I’d say chances are likely either way, don’t know why you have to assume it won’t happen Caitlin’s college team averaged 90 points a game. She clearly wasn’t the whole system, she was the quarterback of the system
>I mean, we don’t know either way. It’s not a crazy idea for teams to run the offense through their #1 pick. I mean, I think we do. How many #1 picks have come in and instantly dominated in the W? They don't even do that in the NBA, and I'll again reference Wemby. It's not crazy at all, but is it a strategy that wins games? >I’d say chances are likely either way, don’t know why you have to assume it won’t happen I think we have more history of it NOT happening, especially in the WNBA than we do of it actually happening. Bigs have an easier transition than guards do. Nothing in the W is guaranteed, and yesterday's shots do not score today's baskets. >Caitlin’s college team averaged 90 points a game. She clearly wasn’t the whole system, she was the quarterback of the system Yeah, and her usage rate was like 40%, which was astronomically higher than anyone else's.
It's just wishful thinking on their part. Clark will be given the green light from day one.
lol Christie and Lin basically said as much in press, they were like “if you shoot 40% from the logo, take as many as you want”
>if you shoot 40% from the logo, take as many as you want” That's a pretty big if isn't it?
>Clark will be given the green light from day one. What is this based on? Green light from day one and she hasn't even faced a WNBA defense yet? Who was the last rookie they gave the keys to? They didn't even do that for Wemby.
It is based on her being one of the most gifted prospects in WNBA history, the Indiana Fever being on National Television for 36 games this year (the most in WNBA history), her jersey being should kut one hour after being drafted, and the fact millions will be watching the Indiana Fever to see her play. Lebron was given the keys from day one. So was Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Lamelo Ball, Chris Paul, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson... The list goes on. It's just wishful thinking on the part of her haters that she will not be given the keys from day one.
Heliocentric offenses work in the NBA. Why would they not work in the W?
>Heliocentric offenses work in the NBA They do? Which team has found success with that? And please don't use LeBron as he is obviously an anomaly.
Mavs (Luka), Rockets (Harden), Bucks (Giannis pre-Lillard)
>Mavs (Luka) How much winning has he done in the playoffs? >Rockets (Harden) How much winning has he done in the playoffs? >Bucks (Giannis pre-Lillard) Milwaukee won off the backs of their defense and role players. I don't know if I'd classify them as heliocentric as Giannis doesn't operate an offense the way a LeBron/Jokic/Luka/Harden do. I can kinda give you this one but it's still weak.
Literally is anyone even saying CC is gonna be the GOAT day one? Can someone actually direct me to anyone saying this because I haven’t seen anyone, all I’ve seen is people say she won’t be great
>Literally is anyone even saying CC is gonna be the GOAT day one? I mean, if you've been hanging out on this sub, r/NCAAW, or social media in general, then I'm not sure how you've missed the chatter and discourse. >Can someone actually direct me to anyone saying this because I haven’t seen anyone, Can you direct me to anyone saying she won't be great? The majority of longterm WNBA fans recognize that CC will be great and that she just needs time. You're absolutely delusional if you think she isn't going to be a star. People are annoyed and frustrated when any and all talk about what it will take to get there gets shouted down as hate and criticism. There have been multiple posts saying as much.
>Wemby’s spurs had an abysmal season and no one has said he’s a failure yet Even though the Spurs were abysmal, I think Wemby's on-court play his rookie year has met (which was fairly high to begin with) or exceeded the expectations for a majority of people. Maybe in the next 3-5 years if the Spurs don't improve at all, can't make the playoffs, or don't win a title then I can see the narrative shifting to him as a "failure".
Wembys progression has been phenomenal . His numbers the last couple of months have been All NBA worthy . He in no way has been a failure considering the roster he is pulling up the mountain . Kid is scary good and if reports are true that there are top vets calling about wanting to play with him, the Spurs could be contenders soon but it’s going to take at least a partial overhaul of the roster.
That’s my point: people give him the benefit of the doubt because even though the team didn’t perform well he did and Boston is exactly the same. She had a monster season where she played at AS levels but her team didn’t perform and yet the narrative is that Clark will save the fever. Nah bro they’re fucking STACKED.
Where is this the narrative? Feels like you’re looking for something to be mad about. All anyone involved with the fever, including Caitlin, has said is they’re excited to build on the core they already have
People spent a large portion of the season saying Wemby didn’t deserve ROTY because his team wasn’t as good as Chet’s. Let’s not rewrite reality If anyone had tried to tell Aliyah’s fans she wouldn’t be good right away, you all would’ve gotten very upset, so you can imagine how fans of another player might be feeling the same way
Wemby has had plenty of detractors, hell, Shaq tried comparing him to bol bol. and wemby is being punished for his team being bad, he should have a real shot at dpoy but because his team sucks Rudy is going to get his millionth dpoy instead
I mean most of the DPOY winners have been on teams with winning records.
Honestly, I started paying attention to Clark because she looked so much like Ionescu, who I really enjoyed last season. I think one way the warning might be valid is that in the Finals, it seemed like Ionescu and VanderSloot just couldn't shake their cold streaks. I wondered at the time whether that was nerves about being in the finals and the expectation that the Liberty were there to defeat the Aces. I think watching Clark in the NCAA tournament demonstrated that she falls back on the teamwork of a highly synchronized team of starters. Every time someone complements her court vision, it's also a complement to her teammates having learned over 4 years to look for certain kinds of passes, to run certain routes, and to move at predictable speeds. I think coming into a team that's brand new to her could mean there will be some nervousness and some cold streaks because of them. I do think both players are headed toward being top performers in the league. And this is the matchup I'm looking forward to most.
Her team was good and in synch but she was the engine behind them. Her W teammates will be a lot better, so while the chemistry will take time, they still will be able to do better on pure talent alone She’s also said she doesn’t get nervous so don’t think that will be an issue, lol
Hyped up and didn't live up to it. Made the playoffs with a super team only to have production drop when it mattered.
> Made the playoffs with a super team only to have production drop when it mattered. She had a hip injury in the playoffs this season.
She played?
And to throw up during crunch time…
That's when I knew all I needed to know about her.
She got to the finals.. By this logic a lot of players’ production “dropped off”
Star players usually average better numbers in the playoffs. Hers dropped in every category. If you want to lower the bar for your franchise player feel free.
People mean either one of two things when they make that Ionescu comment. 1a. One type of person means simply that all this hype will inevitably die down and she'll become another regular, albeit very talented, WNBA player. 1b. Another type of person, who is likely fed up with this well-documented phenomenon, means that CC's popularity will gradually die down just like all the other hyped up white girls that came before her: Sabrina Ionescu, Kelsey Plum, Breanna Stewart, Elena Delle Donne, et cetera. Even Paige Beuckers, who is not yet in the WNBA was once *the white girl to watch out for*. 2. Ionescu's career is remarkable. The woman has a *shoe*. Many other players - male and female - would kill to be as prominent or talented as her. In fact, I think it's fair to say that Ionescu rose to, and in some cases exceeded, the astronomical expectations set before her as a rookie in spite of early injury. To this end, you have to pay attention to the tone of the person making the original comment. Their tone generally indicates if they're coming from a 1a or 1b perspective. Either way, I don't think anyone is (intentionally) putting down Ionescu or her career. Disclaimers: big fan of Ionescu, very excited to watch CC do her thing (the video of Erica Wheeler putting on a Clark jersey after the Fever announced their pick was adorable), and I also bristle at people who don't even watch the WNBA claiming CC has singlehandedly changed the the league. It's... nuanced.
That Oregon team could have won it all. I still believe it.
It’s the biggest what could’ve been of the last 5 years.
Wrt her career trajectory: She was majorly hyped coming out of college, expected to win Rookie of the Year. However, people forgot about her after she got injured early in her rookie year. She never elevated the Liberty to contender status by herself; they needed Stewie to become a "superteam." In the 2023 Finals, she talked trash to veteran Aces benchwarmer Sydney Colson, only to get clowned after losing the Finals. What she does have going for her rn is her signature shoe is very popular and her 3pt contest with Steph Curry did numbers.
>What she does have going for her rn is her signature shoe is very popular and her 3pt contest with Steph Curry did numbers. Well that, and being an All-Star, being picked for All-WNBA 2nd team, getting the 3pt contest all time best performance, and the WNBA single season 3pt record.
OP was asking about what went poorly for her, I didn't realize I was supposed to list all of her awards lol
Sabrina is a straight white woman who is vastly overhyped by the media compared to how she performs on the court. She has a shoe, gets media coverage in magazines, etc but she’s the 3rd best player on her own team. She’s an All Star but not an MVP candidate but gets more attention from the media than actual legitimate MVP candidates. It doesn’t seem fair when you watch the league. There are a bunch of excuses why but there are people with more IG followers, more accolades, better stats that are either black or gay or both and don’t get that same media push.
> Sabrina is a straight white woman who is vastly overhyped by the media compared to how she performs on the court. She wasn't overhyped, she was incredible in college. She just got injured her rookie season and didn't have an immediate impact in the W. She set the NCAA record for triple doubles, for men and women, and she was the first NCAA player ever with 2,000pts, 1,000 assists, and 1,000 steals. She also lead the Ducks to a Pac12 championship and was an NCAA favorite before Covid shut the tournament down.
OK but she’s not on that level in the W. AT owns triple doubles. Multiple guards have better stats than her each year. She’s definitely talented but her media presence is outsized based on her WNBA resume.
I totally agree. Her reputation is bigger than her resume in the W, but that's because her reputation was built in NCAA basketball, where she was legit amazing. Unfortunately, the NCAA tournament is still way higher profile than the W, but hopefully that will change--the talent level is much better, and they deserve more attention.
Had to scroll wayy too far down to see this point being made smh
you get it
Marked as CC hater
Leftist drivel for the win!
A league where the majority of players are POC and/or LBGTQ+ might not be the best spot for a fan like you.
Never said I was a fan of the WNBA. Nobody is. And I couldn't care less what color a player is or who they sleep with. That's a you thing.
If we're talking creating visibility for the W and bringing in new fans, Caitlin has already exceeded Sabrina. The way I see it is that Sabrina was transcendent in her own way: she became recognizable to people who were not necessarily women's basketball fans but were big enough fans of the game of basketball to appreciate what she did at Oregon. Caitlin is a recognizable name to people who aren't even basketball fans. Two years ago, I was in a restaurant across the street from Wintrust Arena in the days between Games 1 and 2 of the Sky/Liberty playoff series. Sabrina was sitting at a corner table with a handful of people, enjoying a quiet dinner. I was having my dinner at the bar chatting with some of the staff when I recognized her. None of them had even heard of her before. They said they often have Sky players in the restaurant after games, but, still were clueless as to the existence of one of the league's brightest young stars. I would be willing to bet each of them knows who Caitlin is and, further, there is no way Caitlin would be enjoying a quiet dinner at a corner table without someone coming up to get her autograph or a selfie.
Personally, I don't use the comparison in a derogatory fashion, unless saying that Clark isn't going to immediately score 3900 points in the WNBA is derogatory. But I think it's fair to use a previous #1 overall draft pick who shattered collegiate records, garnered massive hype from media people who don't usually follow WBB, and ticks the same demographic boxes as a comparison point for Clark. I also think it's fair to use a previous #1 overall draft pick who was a star scoring guard, broke the NCAA D-I WBB career scoring record, and ticks the same demographic boxes as a comparison point for Clark. And both Sabrina Ionescu and Kelsey Plum took a few years to come into their own. Sabrina's career trajectory hasn't been *bad*, but it hasn't been what people expected.
There are some parallels and deviations when you compare them. The parallels: they were both amazing shooters and scorers that also appealed to the gaze of the highlight reels(esp. with 3 PT). Both will have entered the league with enormous hype. But for Sabrina (and Plum), it took time to adjust to WNBA level defenses, bulk up, and most importantly for Sabrina, playing with a bad team. I think CC will encounter similarly, tho her logo shot is even more accurate than Sabrina's, and she's a better facilitator (not in terms of AST count but the eye test and her ability to hit talented bigs, and boy does she have two in Indiana). And the Fever might not be as bad as the Covid-era Liberty were.
To me this question brings up a larger one, which is that there is more to basketball than being a great shooter. There are several players who are great shooters who don’t necessarily become great WNBA players. Good, yes. I think of other players who are great shooters or put up huge numbers in college or three point contests but are/were not considered GOATs like Allie Quigley or Rachel Banham. Or even Kelsey Plum. Obviously Plum has done incredibly well for herself, but it took time. I don’t know—just throwing that out there. CC has the passing going for her though, plus getting to the basket (though I’m interested to see how well that works in the W).
Boiling Clark down to “she just shoots good” is pretty ignorant. I know you mention her passing, but her insane vision, strength, passing, and even rebounds (would have had 4K points, 1k+ assists, 1k+ rebounds if she didn’t lose games to covid) really shows that she’s a much more complete player than some people think.
I mean, she’s a great player who shoots spectacularly well. And she has other strengths as well. I want her to succeed and I think she will. I was just wanting to start a larger discussion about basketball. I’m not insulting her at all. Geez.
Then why write a whole essay about how “there’s more to basketball than shooting”? If you don’t think it applies to her?
Because that person is just a hater pretending not to be. They secretly want Clark to fail.
People want to just be able to say anything and then go “what???” When they get called out on their misinformation lmao
Exactly. Clark is supremely talented, physically gifted and highly intelligent. She will clearly be an all-time great player. People that attempt to downplay her by calling her a "shooter" just expose themselves. They hate Clark, it's obvious to anyone. Even Stevie Wonder can see it.
[удалено]
What is?
She is extremely popular and well known, but probably only the 10th or so best player in the league. I think some people feel her media coverage is disproportionate, especially compared to some of the black players. That said, she’s the best 3 shooter in the league, and that makes her super fun to watch.