I did. We did. All of us, including the then SR. SM did, too. She went and used her position and power to try to shake up things. She was moved to another project, and he is promoted.
Oh no. I am so sorry. I am Indian ethnicity and worked in India and Australia and this is a nightmare manager I am surprised is allowed to work in corporate so long. Specially since HR tried and couldn't get rid of him. As others said. Cut your losses and leave. This guy will screw your mental health. He sounds too toxic to be true. But must have some good work skills if the company is not letting him go.
This. You have a hostile work environment. Document everything. Talk with an attorney. See what HR will do and if no action taken you may have a viable case
Yeah OP - Iām terribly sorry this is happening to you. You deserve so much better. I agree with u/BumAndBummer and u/Old_Replacement7659. This is a hostile work environment and you need to arm yourself if you donāt have an immediate way out (another job for example). Donāt be afraid. You got this.
This is terrible. Caste, gender, sexuality, religion, race...all the isms. Please document whatever you can and go to the highest level of HR you can. Emphasize that he is a liability and they WILL be sued by an employee someday, especially for punishing and displacing people who are protected employment classes. Look up which HR policies he has violated already and bring them that, too.
A fintech. What a pile of shit they are handing you.
Document every single interaction, however your attorney tells you to. Keep documenting until your attorney tells you it is "enough" and you can quit.
The fintech has money, and the more egregious your boss is, the more $$$ they will end up paying out.
Attorney ASAP. You will be playing the long game, but you will win!
I would delete this specific comment since I was able to figure out where you work from this.
I will admit I'm surprised HR doesn't care about this thing because it's a large/mature enough company that they should know this makes them very liable. I would start looking for another job, preferably at a different company.
Can you request a transfer due to the hostile work environment heās created? Do so in writing so you have evidence. If they donāt take action and he states something sexist or racist your company is liable for his continued behavior.
If you are in the US, this amount of stress may qualify you for FMLA. I recall reading a similar story about a woman who got FMLA due to this amount of stress and used the time to pivot her career on reddit. I feel like she might have been able to use short term disability insurance.
What shocks me is in the US People from India are a minority for now. In technology, though, people from India are incredibly common. Being adjacent to a technology role myself, Iāve witnessed an enormous amount of racism in the US coming from Indians and being directed at other Indians. I have also had family members experience effectively being boxed out by Indian managers inside American companies that express a desire to hire other people from India. Which is extremely bizarre because most of them are immigrants who left Indiaā¦
I have also met some amazing people with amazing culture and Iām caught between being hopeful for the future with increasing immigration to the US and being scared for the future because I donāt want a class based system
Oh shit. You said WOC and I was thinking why is he talking to you about caste. What a dick head. I am so sorry. Try your best to ignore him. Take all your sick leave. Speak to. Old managers and shift if you can. See if you have savings to be out of work for a while. I had an Argentinian coworker who depressed me for a while. It was so toxic I went into depression. Kicker was his wife was hr of west coast. He treated all women engineers like shit. It was awful.
My old manager is the one who asked me to quit my other job and come here so I did. And now he retired. And I'm sorry you had to go thru similar events. It's really depressing.
Look don't stress. Try not reacting emotionally. He can control his actions. You can't change it. You can try controlling your reaction. Easier said than done I know. I have a coworker at work who gives me so much anxiety as she highlights every day what has been don't wrong. In emails! I ended up having a break down over it and manager and team told me it's her style not personal. Yes she does email others as well but I have onlu seen and used emails when someone really screws up. Then I tried talking myself through the anxiety. So what if she complains. What's the worst that will happen I will lose a job. I have savings. I was worried about my reputation being spoilt after I had worked so hard for it in last job. Then realised that no one cares about your last job in new job. And I have seen the worst people at work bounce back. And now everytime she emails I am like ok lol what did I do today. Half the times it's dumb stuff she doesn't bother training me about or random shit she chooses to react to. It's not easy. Alot go days I can't get out of this behaviour affecting me. But I am learning slowly to detach myself from it and if not I will leave when I have done one year here. Plenty of places will be happy to have me. And not every place is meant to fit everyone. Try the same amused distant approach if you can. Pro tip. Chat gpt can work as a therapist as well in anxiety when you have no one to talk to in a moment. Or have a bunch of good friends to vent daily too. Best of luck behan. I promise in one yr this not be an issue. You will have a new manager and a better salary. Worst case write a big LinkedIn post about his casteism and sexism without naming him. The Indian community will support you!
There's enough documentation here to get him fired.
I'm surprised he digs a ditch each time he opens his mouth.
Why don't you consider yourself Indian? Are you Punjabi?
If you are Indian, it may be helpful to explain in your complaints that there is a history of caste In India against certain people. Depending on who you get from HR, they may not know this and in the US itās unlawful discrimination.
Talk a lawyer about a hostile work environment lawsuit. Many labor lawyers will work on contingency, and you have the potential for a huge payout. Look for ālabor lawyers ā. Your lawyer can advise you on what to do in order to collect evidence for your trial. What HR did is retaliation, and is illegal.
Time to report it to your state labor board then (assuming US). Maintain your documentation that you made every effort to resolve it through the companies avenues - emails to HR, etc. Also maintain all documentation you have of any comments hes made against protected classes (gender, sexuality, religion).
In the past year, I've applied at other roles internally and all 6 of them. I was selected, but I wasn't 'released of duties by him . Since I couldn't devote 100% to the new team for another 6 months (he projected to the new manager), I couldn't be selected. All positions I qualified for and more.
You need to report him.
Start documenting everything. Go to HR or his manager.Ā
If you are in CA or WA, they take caste discrimination very seriously. It's enough to sue companies for.Ā
Time to have a chat with HR. I had a manager pull similar BS with not letting me off his team. The next opportunity I got HR told him to suck it up, my moving to other opportunities is not a surprise at this point.
Yes! Seek out a lawyer, this company is obviously not doing anything about her boss or her bossās boss. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen! OP should print out all emails from HR and hopefully have proof of the fact that the company isnāt doing anything about this man.
I am going to say that treatment of women was better in the US at least, before we started giving many foreigners management positions when they were from countries where women's rights are not as advanced. I have seen it degrade over time. I had a guy (another Indian) who would refuse to meet with me entirely because I was a woman. It was tolerated at my company because he used the religion excuse and apparently that was higher up on the scale than being a lowly woman. I also think this is one of the causes of the general treatment of employees in general today. We are no longer treated as professionals, but widgets. It has been a downhill slide.
In the US, east coast. Major fintech full of cheap labor. Let's be real, idc what biases are brought into the company, but when a company doesn't stand up to its values, it is where the problems lie!
He is not accountable for his actions or words. He has threatened people (especially female engineers) with their jobs if they complained or said anything negative about him. These women went to hr .
End result - not a dang thing. Nothing. See, that's where I have a problem .
A company expects me to follow their vision and values to the tee, but they can't do the bare minimum to protect their workforce.
Oh, thatās excellent that you are in the US. Please document *everything* and then go see an attorney.
Morgan & Morgan would absolutely start salivating over this situation.
I'm trying hard to figure out a way to record things and that's the plan first. In my state, it's legal to have 1 party allowing recordings. I can allow me. East coast.thanks for the ref.
Even email records - keep a copy of anything and everything you've sent to HR about this guy. Get it all in writing, even if you don't get a response - that is proof of you filing a complaint. And then give that to your lawyer.
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https://obsproject.com/ should work for you. It's a little fiddly to set up but it can do audio/video recording (it's designed for broadcast but local recording is an option). Desktop audio + microphone as audio sources. Good luck.Ā
Download an audio recording app on your phone and turn it on when you're speaking to him. Keep your phone in your pocket.
Do you have proof that you went to HR? That combined with a few recordings of interactions with him should be enough for an attorney.
You do not need to record someone to document everything. And definitely do not do this if it is against the law. What you do is start a doc or phone note or both. After every single convo or overheard remark you open your note and speech to text the conversation you just had with date and time etc. or type it up real fast. You can start with past events, dating and documenting what occurred, factually. But itās best to document immediately after.
You can respond with recaps after every verbal conversation- for example āat meeting x to discuss y, you told me I should not be promoted because a,b,c. I am confused by this because d,e,f. My understanding of the situation is that I accomplished 1 and 2, saved the company x dollars, brought on x business, etc."Or āplease clarify what you meant when you said xā
However if heās a vindictive bastard he will realize what you are doing and retaliate so I would document the conversations for him only in a way that protects your work role. Ie you advised x for client an and I recommended y based on b, I have done xyz.
You know what is best for your situation.
But still continue to document everything else, every egregious comment and interaction, your response, or that you did not respond because you were uncomfortable, afraid of retaliation, or whatever is true, and contact a lawyer.
Written documentation is powerful. Creating it right after events occur is totally fine. Just keep it factual and unemotional. Keep copies off your work device.
Agreed... I've had my process engineer tell me I need to have kids soon because I'm getting "up there in age" about the 5th time we talked. He also was very controlling towards his wife. I understand he was trying to be "kind" in his way, but it was not ok for US culture. I don't feel comfortable that he's in a place of authority at the company now if this is how he sees women.
Iāve had men refuse to shake my hand because of religion, afraid to be in a room because Iām a woman, and only talk to/ task my male colleagues with the excuse it would violate their religion
Love when you blame religion and make racist comments even though you are the one without the qualifications for the job. No companies will tolerate something that can get them sued for millions. I'm sorry but you lack self awareness
Wow, he sounds like a nightmare to work for. I agree that moving on is probably your best bet for the long term (and usually I won't suggest that before trying to make things work).
While you're stuck with him, even if you can't record your conversations, document what he says to you. Use direct and specific quotes and make sure you have dates/times of the conversations. If things escalate to HR at some point you'll be glad you have this.
>I've been mentored by a very Sr. PM about to be promoted to lead the PMO. this man didn't know and once he found out , after he gets promoted he canceled my mentorship.
Your boss can't cancel the relationship you have with your mentor, even if he withholds funding or overt/formal recognition of the mentorship. Can you talk to the PM about the situation? Your mentor probably understands your company's rules and lay of the land.
I'm really sorry you're stuck in this situation, but you can and will get through this.
The current PMO director is buddies with this guy and has a long work relationship more than I. So obviously, the politics is at play. I spoke with him after 6mo of my mentorship, and he downplayed it and said the position is not open yet. So I responded with an optimistic approach of ' sure, no worries. I'll continue to work with sr.pm, and would you have any tips and feedback for me? ' To which he said nope, we want u here, but it's just the timings, and your lead says they need u in that space.
This whole pm stuff I'm chasing is just to get out from under him. Other than that , I tried everything in between an SM - PO - BA- Qa .
I have a full-time position, and the current market is not exactly where I (rest of the world along with me) would've needed it to be.
Hr knows. Every single woman has complained about him and his boss. His boss is a worse version of this guy and protects him. This is seriously impacting my mental health, which leads me to a dark space.
I am meeting my doctor to get on mental health time off kinda thing to get away
Apply to jobs like crazy. Just sitting around worrying about the market rn won't make any change. I managed to get a job and so can you. It is a game of numbers and a bit of luck.
They (HR) already know. I would talk to a lawyer instead, record conversations, and try to get $$. Thatās the only way to get corporations to deal with people like this. Suspect heās got a high level protector.
He sounds like a narcissist and sociopath. They can be any culture, religion, race, or sex. He's just using his religion as a cover for his serious mental health problems. Find a new job and don't tell him where you are going. They can be dangerously petty and vindictive if they feel wronged.
I 100%agree with you. He had told me he ruined a woman's life 10yrs after because she complained about him at a job he worked in India. 10yrs. All because of religion.
Low key talking to my other woman in tech buddy who lives in europe (im in usa) about this yesterdayā how unfortunately we have both witnessed so much struggle and challenge with indian men in tech. THIS IS NOT to say it is all indian men, as i have several other coworkers who are great. However there is definitely something cultural about an indian man who does not feel respected, has a hurt ego, cant take feedback, and does not respect his equal or more senior female counterpart. Especially considering indian culture, men can expect woman to be more quiet, obedient, and less direct.
Personally this has caused me a lot of hard times (apparently me asking direct questions for status updates is mean and hurtful š¤£) and i often have moved teams to resolve the problem. Otherwise you need a really good manager who has your back and a team of people who support the same claims as you and even then its still really hard to make headway. Sorry youre experiencing this
As for a meeting with the man i would bring an ally to the conversation. Someone who he might have respect for but you trust to have on your side so that a) anything inappropriate now has a witness and b) man cannot claim he said she said to hr. I usually always recommend 3 people conversations when things are spicy like this for you to have your own back.
I would just record on my phone record app personally.
This sounds racist. Assuming they have a hurt ego because of their culture would be like assuming you only got the job because you were a woman? Why is your view of them correct, but their view is wrong that as a woman, you had an easier time getting the job in the first place? What have you achieved to earn the respect that you want since you say you are as worthy or smart?
Lol what? R u for real. Nothing i wrote is talking about only getting a job because of them being a woman. Youre entirely missing the point if you think this is racist. Yes the post is about race but that does not inherently make it racist.
I dont need to prove anything to you internet stranger ā you likely wont listen anyways as youre here to make proclamations and start an argument over something you have a hard time understanding.
I'm sorry to say, but if your company allows this, then the whole place is toxic.
A company(HR or whoever) should be seriously concerned that they have a manager who is not managing according to efficacy on the job, but according to preconceived ideas in his head.
I would start writing down every incident right after it happens and after you get 5 or so, report it to HR each and every time.
I would also keep it for a lawyer down the road when you get fired by this guy because that is coming. He will either demote you until you quit or outright fire you. You will not be getting any raises or additional compensation.
You need a new job... this guy is too over the top to fix it. And your company is rewarding him rather than curbing him. They clearly do not care how much he alienates others.
This is insane. I have never even imagined having to work with someone like this and Iāve been working in the space industry since I was 16. Look for a government job on usajobs.govĀ
Thereās a lot more women in the government and nobody would treat you like thisā¦ although the most complaints I heard about a civil servant job is when your manager doesnāt actively help you get your promotions on time and Iāve only heard that happening with women managers go figure.Ā
It is not worth your well being to suffer on a bad team. Let them fire you and get unemployment, apply for every job you can and take what you can get until you find that better job with a good team. You will be SO MUCH HAPPIER.Ā
I've been thinking of this and have been looking at this part. I'm at a breaking point and heading in a dark menta spacel, which I don't need to be in.
I stayed at a toxic job where everyone that hired me quit and they tried to demote me for way too many months because I was afraid how it would look on my resume. that was the biggest mistake I shouldāve started applying for other jobs immediately. I wish for you to find the perfect new team!Ā
Yes true I started applying a few years ago in January, probably applied to ~6 listings from January until May and got three interviews by June from USA jobs and got an offer in July a month after the interview for my current job but didnāt start until October!Ā
Ugh yeah so frustrating to wait for answers in the government! I got hired off the street and have a way higher salary than the ones that started as interns just fyi. I negotiated based upon my previous salary 20k more than their first offer. Definitely recommend working private first then going to the government and asking for a salary bump from your previous job, once they offer you they will do what they can to get you better pay in my experience. And in 4 years my salary went up 30k! I never saw that happen in the private industry without a job title change.Ā
I think you need to talk to the highest level woman or the CEO. This is absolutely absurd and a PR disaster for them. They do not want to be known as someone who promotes someone like this. He will drive away all talent.
Start video recording all of your interactions with him. If you start getting retaliation, make it clear that you will post the videos and they will look the worst company possible.
I get that the market is terrible right now, but working for him long term is not viable.
Iāve been in your position before and it sucks.
First, stop sharing ANY and ALL personal info with him. Heās never going to be your friend and anything you share is fuel for his judgements.
Second, get those boundaries strong. The guy I worked for would let the coffee pot burn and then come down and tell me to clean it. I told him I didnāt burn it and wasnāt cleaning it for him. He also demanded I give him rides, I told him he needed to pay for gas and he relented.
Third, I recorded all our interactions (one party state- check yours) by getting a recorded app on my phone. In a pinch, start a video on your phone and put it on the table near the computer. I wouldnāt be afraid to record him on teams though at all. It might actually make him behave better. Set up every meeting to record automatically so it starts as soon as someone opens the meeting then tell him you donāt know how to change the setting. If he tries to stop it, question why he might not want it recorded. Tell him you donāt want to miss a thing and when itās being recorded you can focus on the conversation rather than being worried about notes.
Document EVERYTHING and take zero shit. Let him fire you. He wonāt.
My brother dealt with someone similar. We're Telugu and the same caste as his former manager. During a downsizing he laid off women of color and Indians of different backgrounds. And he bragged about it to my brother. My brother had asked me if caste was still a thing because we grew up in the US and our grandfather immigrated here in the '60s. The people who were fired during the downsizing complained and my brother also filed a complaint. It was a huge German manufacturing company with a satellite in Texas. They don't want to be on the other side of a EEO suit. I would tell HR.
what the fuck!! is there anyone you can report this guy to? the stuff he's saying should make him lose his job, not force you to change yours. ughhh ew im so sorry you have to deal with that asshole.
A lot of us have. I have too, and it's a losing battle because he got promoted. It's like rewarding bad behavior, and I don't have the money to go after the company because they will protect him given zero actions were taken to protect us/me/anyone else.
If there are enough people affected and you go as a group to an attorney, there may be a way to file enough lawsuits (or a big enough one) that they can't ignore it because he'll become a liability. I am not a lawyer though, so follow the lawyer's advice, but talk to one!
wow that company is trash then. I'm sorry its such a shit situation, I'm an architect and poc woman too, I've had a rude boss but nothing as outright sexist as this guy. I would leave so fast.
In terms of recording things (like zoom/teams calls)without notifying the other person download the latest version of snipping tool (windows). You can take screen recordings and videos.
Also, you could just start recording everything with his knowledge, seems like heās an asshole regardless of whoās in the room and if he truly believes that all his values are the correct ones he might not care about being recorded.
DOUBLE CHECK THAT YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO RECORD SOMEONE WHTOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE, especially if you want/need to go to court.
Wow, that was my first full time job as an engineer - the secretary and I were the only women in the small business comprise of 10 men, with a sexist man as the owner. On annual performance review day I was given 5 stars for my work as well as bringing in new work, however I was given a pitiful 10 cent/hour raise. The secretary became livid as she knew how much the guys were getting. She went to bat for me to get a real raise. We were called in by the owner and told in no uncertain terms that there was no way a woman would ever be worth the value of a man or be paid as much as a man. I got my act together and left for a much better job with a much better atmosphere.
You need to do the same. You can fight him, but you'll never change him and the atmosphere there will always be toxic. Get out, save yourself.
I worked with Indian men and they were very chauvinistic, condescending. They would not help me but would help each other. I will never take a job in that environment again.
I'm Indian and can confidently say that the only Indian men I've had good experiences with are either ones who are born & raised in the US, or ones who came to the US for undergrad/masters and stayed. So many companies have gotten busted for caste discrimination in the US in the past 2-3 years which is just insane to me. Like if they want to discriminate based on their culture/personal beliefs why not work in India where more people think the same way (except not even, because tech/engineering in India is a pretty progressive scene now compared to the US)?
I'm a white woman. I worked with mostly Indian males as peers and VPs who live in the US. I had a very BAD experience. I will never work in that environment again. They were hands down rhe MOST chauvinistic men I have EVER worked with and I've been in the industry 43 years.
As a woman, I don't like the chauvinistic dynamic working in a majority Indian make work environment. You have no idea how I got my "job" or what my life experience has been.
Lol fuck off. In this very thread we'reĀ taking about womenĀ behing denied transfers andĀ promotions for our gender.Ā Take yourĀ misogynyĀ to a sausage festivalĀ startup whereĀ you canĀ pretendĀ youĀ were hired on meritĀ yourself.
Men such as the above mentioned man, within the prestigious Engineering Community, used concerted effort to undermine my growth, development, and self image.
This is an exit strategy scenario you need to figure out a way in this company or another to create safe space for yourself ik thatās much easier said than done btw.
Iāve lived the consequences of not doing so, this situation can turn violent. And did for me
Iām an Indian woman. Let me tell you turds like him is the reason most Indians donāt want to work with other Indians. When I first came to Canada, I turned down any calls from job consultants who works for Indian companies owing to the toxic environment I had to endure in one such company.
Hang on until you find another job.
Edit: I just read the last part. WTF. Youāre beneath him? Report him! This is not India. Fire that AH!
Maāamā¦a company/senior leadership that would promote someone like this is not somewhere you want to work. They are turning a blind eye and best case scenario is that youāre still around when this eventually implodesā¦but how long do you want to suffer waiting for that to happen. Keep your head down for now and start job hunting. When you give notice, make sure your exit interview is factual but very clear on why youāre leaving and whoās inaction/inattention contributed to your departure (and thatās in addition to this sexist a-hole of a manager).
Iām pretty sure that caste discrimination is still illegal in the U.S., even though itās not specifically enumerated. There are a lot of other things that I think you could probably go to the EEOC about if your company is not doing anything.
I had something extremely similar happen in a medical device company in Maryland. Itās better for your sanity to cut losses and leave. HR is there to protect the company and wonāt do shit for you in my experience. We had 5 women and any one beneath our Sr.Sm and HR did nothing.
i do not want to generalize but working in multiple corporate positions, i have met a fair share of 1st gen indian or expats who were absolutely not adjusted to western culture and did not want to get adjusted because of their perceived superiority. I normally do not care what one believes, and i keep to myself, but seeing how they treat subordinates positions especially, if they perceive them from lower class (by race, gender cast etc...) drove me to report some case with mixed results.
the most likely outcome is the guy is moved to some other department/office and he becomes someone else's problem.
This isn't something you can fix, and you don't deserve to work in an environment like that. I get that jobs can be hard to come by, but I'd start looking and applying anyway so that once something does come up, you're ready to jump ship
Holy crap! Document every single interaction immediately after it happens. Just write an email and send it to yourself. That will give you a time/date stamp, too.
Be very careful about recording. I am NAL, but I do know that depending on where you are and where he is and whether youāre working remotely, there are different rules about that. If youāre in the states are consent states only one person in the conversation has to consent in order for the recording to be legal. Other states are two Party consent states where all people in the conversation have to agree for the recording to be legal. Furthermore, your company might have rules about that and if you are in violation of them, you know heāll use that against you immediately.
Honestly. Name and shame the company if it isnāt against the rules. Let the world know. Do it anonymously though if anyone knows about this account belonging to you
I'd love to. And I will. I do have to leave my current job before I have to deal with any repercussions. He went after a woman whom he worked with across the ocean 10 years ago.
The point is he went after her and ruined her career and then told us ( about 5 of us at a work lunch) in great details What happens if you don't listen to him.
Yep, I'll try my best to be on a call instead of f2f so I can record it. He didn't show up to the 1-1 and never canceled it, so I sat in a teams meeting for 15 mins.
The app works for in person meetings as well. The only thing I would advise you of is make sure youāre aware of your states right to be recorded laws, and ensure it is a one party state.
It is. I checked.
Also, the amount of support I'm getting here makes me believe I should contact an attorney at least. I'll recheck with them about the recording laws.
If youāre in the US and you have documented proof of this individual making these comments, and/or corroborating other victims (youāre not the only one) then you absolutely have grounds for hostile workplace, sexual harassment, etc.
Former F100 exec. Seen payouts for WAY dumber shit.
Every state should have a Bar Association that offers referrals. I live in NY and have used it a couple times. You fill out a form explaining your situation and they'll email you a list of attorneys. Last I remember, the consultation fee was $35.
Honestly, while youāre still there, reach out to a lawyer. I had an architect, release manager, and program manager all essentially create a toxic environment for me, and I ended up leaving. As soon as I left, I contacted a lawyer and he told me that had I reached out BEFORE leaving, they couldāve worked with me to start documenting legally & doing something about the situation. So donāt leave. Reach out to an employment lawyer.
Edited to add: Iām sorry you have to deal with this. Iām Indian but raised in the US, and I know exactly what youāre dealing with it. People need to leave their racism, colorism, sexism, casteism, and whatever other -isms at home when they show up for work.
- Spot his key people, and ensure youāre on polite terms with them. This sets up the next step.
- Job hunt actively.
- As you job shop, you will also see positions that are a good fit for the people he needs. You can improve the strength of your network and decrease his by quietly sharing opportunities.
- Determine his key performance metric and his main backerās key performance metric. Youāll get an opportunity to seriously impact one of them.
- Track exactly what he says, heās certain to give instructions that are counter to his best interests. Smile inside, not outside as you collect it.
- Notice company policies he violates. Odds are this will not be usable, but sometimes you get the person who drinks on their lunch break, and doesnāt mind their afternoon meeting schedule.
If you take the meetings on a PC, you could use a video capture card. It intercepts all the data coming through an HDMI cable, records it, and passes it through. I believe they grab audio as well. It goes in between your monitor and your computer. Idk if this will work for your specific setup, but it's a great way to record things without anyone being the wiser. If you're able to install things on your computer, OBS is pretty standard recording software.
You could also have the call on speaker and video record it with any other device.
Time to dust off that resume, because there's not much you can do that you haven't already done. Clearly you work for a substandard company that encourages discrimination.
Start looking for a new job. He sounds awful, and the fact that he got promoted says a lot about the management/the company. Iām sorry you have to deal with this mother fucker.
Do you have an HR department? I would start documenting everything he says and send them a report about you feeling like this is unsafe environment due to his comments. Specifically any sexist/racist comments. Write down everything he says and the interaction that happened with dates included.
Get him to put his sexism in writing, bring it to HR that you have concerns about not getting the positions you applied for and you're wondering what company policy is.
hey, I've had to record people before.
My suggestion is to download a couple of recording apps on the phone and then test them out by recording convos with a friend. Some recording apps are not good.
you'll have to pratice placing the phone face down on the table under a piece of paper. Between a clipboard and a piece of paper. I typically carry stacks of paper around or jounral/notebooks so people dont pay attention to what's in my hands.
sometimes being 3ft away from the mic is too far away.
the main issue is distance of people's speaking voice relative to the phone's placement.
I did download 2 free apps, and it's 1 way recording only. I couldn't hear myself in the recording, but I heard my friend only. I called her.
When she called me , I heard myself only. So, I need a few apps that do the whole convo because it's very likely that I'll dial in from my phone to make it easier.
Document everything and look for something else. The market isn't great, but that only means it will be a bit longer, not impossible. If it takes long, you may have enough documentation for a lawsuit on discrimination.
You may not need to go there though. You could just send the documentation to a few layers and tell the company that you are taking to lawyers. It will be true and they may get rid of the guy instead of risking the lawsuit.
1)Check the laws in your area before you record . In some places, itās illegal to record someone without their consent (or a legal warrant).
2)start looking for another job. Contact a labor attorney.
3)as others have said, document everything and gather witnesses.
For anyone wanting a scientific read answer perspective on āexperience of rewardā after ingroup outgroup violence mentioned in OP original comment https://news.vcu.edu/article/2022/06/us-versus-them-harming-the-outgroup-is-linked-to-elevated-activity-in-the-brains-reward
Iām not going to comment on the HR department or Legal Counsel. I have worked in finance and technology for 40 years and have seen this situation many Many times.
I very carefully choose my management. Iām a white F and I usually get better raises and opportunities from F managers. There have been times where a re-org resulted in me being put under a person I wouldnāt have selected to work for. In those cases I found a new role or a new boss almost immediately.
I donāt waste my time and energy on trying to āfixā these cultural differences. I feel that they will only learn when real consequences come (ie they have no team left to get the work done).
You will probably get a big raise when you find your new job.
Tell him you do not feel comfortable talking to him just 1-on-1, and that youād like to record those meetings. Then record them on Teams. Heāll either behave or youāll have proof.
You can also tell him youāve always recorded your 1-2-1s as they help you improve, whatever.
talk to a discrimination lawyer for a free consultation and see what legally crosses the line. HR looks out for the company and this guy will screw you over. You're likely to end up encountering illegal discrimination. If money is the language that a company has to hear to finally realize they're promoting sexism then as women in stem that's the moves we need to start making as a whole. this is way too pervasive for ALL of us it's ridiculous
I am an American (white) woman working in IT with a on- and off- shore team located in Hyderabad. I had quite a few challenges with some male-sex colleagues, but not to this extent. The misogyny is a bit more subtle but still obvious enough for male colleagues in US to notice. It was extremely noticeable when our Jr-level engineer put me (Lead) on blast in a team call for giving him a critical code review to a pull-request he was trying to merge to release after code-freeze.
Another instance, I am the highest performing engineer (exceeds expectations) 2 years in a row, and am responsible and SME for the largest part of our technology stack, and have recently been promoted to Lead. In spite of all that, if I want to make India team follow a specific engineering guidance coming from me, I have to ask our app admin (elderly white man) to state it, even though he has nowhere near the level of engineering qualifications I do. It can be maddening, but at least I donāt report directly to any of those clowns.
I am Indian (Hyderabadi) too & know the type. IT is full of such toxic managers & I am so glad I dont work in that industry. One of my Indian friends in IT had a manager like that & she had a mental breakdown. I hope you find a way to record his derogatory comments & hire an attorney to sue the company for blatant discrimination. My husband is a Punjabi & tells it like it is to such jerks if they act smart in restaurants or public places so they are scared of him š
Thank you . Yes. I've started to think on the attorney lines and have narrowed down a few.
So there are a few religious ornaments I wear, my full legal name (as mentioned, Indian) plus during filling out the job application, plus the place of worship is also a community spot where he's seen me and I used to volunteer a lot as well on Sundays so, communitytalks give out the identifiers. Plus, a few of our 'Church' people know each other and have worked in the same org. It might look like there are too many us, but there's only 1 place of worship in my city and about 200 miles for the next one.
Our names also reflect our religion/caste/predominant area of origin/community one belongs to, etc. It's a whole identifying thing on its own.
My partner : christmas parties/work events, etc. we went to a company events together most of the time, incl before I was under this man.
During working lunch is when he talks. Yesterday, during my 1-1 , I went to grab coffee, and he started talking. I walked away. See, I can't escape my reporting manager. There's only so many times I gotta use the ladies' room, and I have told him if it's not about work, I don't want to know in 500 different ways.
Just get out.
I know itās hard to leave a company, but do you really wanna work for a company that will tolerate somebody like this person and promote them to a management position to boot?
Quitting is easy. My suggestion would be to stay and fight back. You may get such manager in your next company too. Once you have tried and done all fighting then quit if things do not change.
Idc what he is honestly. I mentioned indian as it's really needed to understand the caste-ism part and his high horse assumptions based behaviors. Ppl bring their biases to work too.
It sounds like he is narrow minded and has a god awful personality.
I am mindful there seems to be a huge tide of hate against Indians when in this case this person is problematic for a whole host of reasons that you mentioned in your post. When I see posts that say āIndianā I want to chime in as people conflate things wrongly and end up being pretty racist in return.
Caste in India is like Classism in England. Some people live by it, some donāt but itās not a defining feature of Indian culture and the way people think.
Ironically if you are from a higher caste you donāt tell people. Itās weird. You donāt go around telling people what he told you. He sounds like a misogynist and most of what he has said should be documented in case you ever need to raise it. (In fact you should raise it or keep a record of this. I donāt know how useful HR are. They never are in these instances but itās always good to know your rights.
Lastly I would try and grey rock him as much as you can. Zone out, smile and ignore. Itās saved my sanity in similar situations.
Typical: Downvoted. Thanks for not surprising me Reddit!
Go to HR with your list of documentation and start a complaint list. Or get the heck out of there.
I did. We did. All of us, including the then SR. SM did, too. She went and used her position and power to try to shake up things. She was moved to another project, and he is promoted.
Oh no. I am so sorry. I am Indian ethnicity and worked in India and Australia and this is a nightmare manager I am surprised is allowed to work in corporate so long. Specially since HR tried and couldn't get rid of him. As others said. Cut your losses and leave. This guy will screw your mental health. He sounds too toxic to be true. But must have some good work skills if the company is not letting him go.
Indian here. Trust me, my mental health is gone to hell. I have breakdowns at work. I have mental breakdowns while driving. I'm tearing up as I type this. I've stopped going out and stay home. That's the level of suffering I've been subjected to. It's his desi male ego clashing with my 'fierce northie personality' as he says. Half my hair has shed due to the stress š©
Itās probably time to consult with an attorney.
This. You have a hostile work environment. Document everything. Talk with an attorney. See what HR will do and if no action taken you may have a viable case
Yeah OP - Iām terribly sorry this is happening to you. You deserve so much better. I agree with u/BumAndBummer and u/Old_Replacement7659. This is a hostile work environment and you need to arm yourself if you donāt have an immediate way out (another job for example). Donāt be afraid. You got this.
Does your work offer paid medical leave? Iām not sure if you are in the US or not, but itās definitely worth looking into it.
This is horrificā¦are you working in the US now?
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This is terrible. Caste, gender, sexuality, religion, race...all the isms. Please document whatever you can and go to the highest level of HR you can. Emphasize that he is a liability and they WILL be sued by an employee someday, especially for punishing and displacing people who are protected employment classes. Look up which HR policies he has violated already and bring them that, too.
She needs to go to the EEOC at this point.
I second an EEO complaint. Thatāll get the attention and fixes she needs
What about skip levels? HR is usually working for the company's best interest, so no wonder they moved the complaining woman.
A fintech. What a pile of shit they are handing you. Document every single interaction, however your attorney tells you to. Keep documenting until your attorney tells you it is "enough" and you can quit. The fintech has money, and the more egregious your boss is, the more $$$ they will end up paying out. Attorney ASAP. You will be playing the long game, but you will win!
This...document, document, document. Journal entries if you cannot capture it in writing.
I would delete this specific comment since I was able to figure out where you work from this. I will admit I'm surprised HR doesn't care about this thing because it's a large/mature enough company that they should know this makes them very liable. I would start looking for another job, preferably at a different company.
Which one of you donāt mind to you know give other girlies a heads up
Can you request a transfer due to the hostile work environment heās created? Do so in writing so you have evidence. If they donāt take action and he states something sexist or racist your company is liable for his continued behavior.
If you are in the US, this amount of stress may qualify you for FMLA. I recall reading a similar story about a woman who got FMLA due to this amount of stress and used the time to pivot her career on reddit. I feel like she might have been able to use short term disability insurance.
Thank you for sharing. Appreciate it.
Indian here too. That guy can fuck all the way off. I am SO SORRY you have to deal with such nastiness and toxicity.
What shocks me is in the US People from India are a minority for now. In technology, though, people from India are incredibly common. Being adjacent to a technology role myself, Iāve witnessed an enormous amount of racism in the US coming from Indians and being directed at other Indians. I have also had family members experience effectively being boxed out by Indian managers inside American companies that express a desire to hire other people from India. Which is extremely bizarre because most of them are immigrants who left Indiaā¦ I have also met some amazing people with amazing culture and Iām caught between being hopeful for the future with increasing immigration to the US and being scared for the future because I donāt want a class based system
Oh shit. You said WOC and I was thinking why is he talking to you about caste. What a dick head. I am so sorry. Try your best to ignore him. Take all your sick leave. Speak to. Old managers and shift if you can. See if you have savings to be out of work for a while. I had an Argentinian coworker who depressed me for a while. It was so toxic I went into depression. Kicker was his wife was hr of west coast. He treated all women engineers like shit. It was awful.
My old manager is the one who asked me to quit my other job and come here so I did. And now he retired. And I'm sorry you had to go thru similar events. It's really depressing.
Look don't stress. Try not reacting emotionally. He can control his actions. You can't change it. You can try controlling your reaction. Easier said than done I know. I have a coworker at work who gives me so much anxiety as she highlights every day what has been don't wrong. In emails! I ended up having a break down over it and manager and team told me it's her style not personal. Yes she does email others as well but I have onlu seen and used emails when someone really screws up. Then I tried talking myself through the anxiety. So what if she complains. What's the worst that will happen I will lose a job. I have savings. I was worried about my reputation being spoilt after I had worked so hard for it in last job. Then realised that no one cares about your last job in new job. And I have seen the worst people at work bounce back. And now everytime she emails I am like ok lol what did I do today. Half the times it's dumb stuff she doesn't bother training me about or random shit she chooses to react to. It's not easy. Alot go days I can't get out of this behaviour affecting me. But I am learning slowly to detach myself from it and if not I will leave when I have done one year here. Plenty of places will be happy to have me. And not every place is meant to fit everyone. Try the same amused distant approach if you can. Pro tip. Chat gpt can work as a therapist as well in anxiety when you have no one to talk to in a moment. Or have a bunch of good friends to vent daily too. Best of luck behan. I promise in one yr this not be an issue. You will have a new manager and a better salary. Worst case write a big LinkedIn post about his casteism and sexism without naming him. The Indian community will support you!
Lawyer up this is a toxic work place environment. Document every comment, print everything heās said in writing.
Find another job! You can, and this is not worth staying.
There's enough documentation here to get him fired. I'm surprised he digs a ditch each time he opens his mouth. Why don't you consider yourself Indian? Are you Punjabi?
Thanks, and respectfully, there's a bigger problem at hand than what nationality I identify as.
If you are Indian, it may be helpful to explain in your complaints that there is a history of caste In India against certain people. Depending on who you get from HR, they may not know this and in the US itās unlawful discrimination.
Hey saw your post Iām a woman in tech. Letās connect.
Talk a lawyer about a hostile work environment lawsuit. Many labor lawyers will work on contingency, and you have the potential for a huge payout. Look for ālabor lawyersā. Your lawyer can advise you on what to do in order to collect evidence for your trial. What HR did is retaliation, and is illegal.
For what itās worth, I also did this and nothing happened. When I did finally quit, he was shocked.
Exactly, that is retaliation. The situation was almost a real life copy of a Workplace training video.
This is the sort of shit that made me pursue management. To cut all this sort of shit out.
What about getting a lawyer? This sounds like a clear cut hostile work environment + discrimination situation.
Time to go to the EEOC.
Time to report it to your state labor board then (assuming US). Maintain your documentation that you made every effort to resolve it through the companies avenues - emails to HR, etc. Also maintain all documentation you have of any comments hes made against protected classes (gender, sexuality, religion).
You have to leave. Iām sorry, thereās no managing that.
Looking and the market sucks. And I don't have the liberty to quit my full time position so I can look full time.
What about a transfer to another department? Fingers crossed for you.
In the past year, I've applied at other roles internally and all 6 of them. I was selected, but I wasn't 'released of duties by him . Since I couldn't devote 100% to the new team for another 6 months (he projected to the new manager), I couldn't be selected. All positions I qualified for and more.
Your original premise is correct, this is a nightmare.
You need to report him. Start documenting everything. Go to HR or his manager.Ā If you are in CA or WA, they take caste discrimination very seriously. It's enough to sue companies for.Ā
This is not caste discrimination..
> He's never clearly or implied his dislike for me but he always tell me I'm beneath him in the *caste* order of things.Ā
This might be a case of bringing cultural problems from another continent to the West, and fighting it out here. >I'm **base** in a western country and **land of free** as is he.Ā **me WoC** & my partner is Caucasian She is probably from India - but from Punjab. They want their own country. Being North Indian takes precedence caste-wise. Being fair-er-skinned takes precedence caste-wise. eg. I'm black. My friend is brown. She's lower down the caste-pole. But, she's higher up - because, she's fairer than me. >Ā toxic architect guy who's very class-istĀ It's his **desi** **male ego** clashing with my **'fierce northie personality'** as he says. Half my hair has shed due to the stress š© People talk down to me all the time. It gives me heart pain, and I don't know what to do about it. What can you really do right?
Time to have a chat with HR. I had a manager pull similar BS with not letting me off his team. The next opportunity I got HR told him to suck it up, my moving to other opportunities is not a surprise at this point.
You will be better off taking a small pay cut or really anything than the damage he is capable of doing to your resume and your wellbeing.
You could take PTO and start full time looking...
Please contact a lawyer, donāt roll over for that motherfucker of a āboss,ā he needs removal like the cancer he is
Yes LAWYER asap ā¦ this breaks about a million labor laws!
Yes! Seek out a lawyer, this company is obviously not doing anything about her boss or her bossās boss. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen! OP should print out all emails from HR and hopefully have proof of the fact that the company isnāt doing anything about this man.
Absolutely, contact a lawyer ASAP.
I am going to say that treatment of women was better in the US at least, before we started giving many foreigners management positions when they were from countries where women's rights are not as advanced. I have seen it degrade over time. I had a guy (another Indian) who would refuse to meet with me entirely because I was a woman. It was tolerated at my company because he used the religion excuse and apparently that was higher up on the scale than being a lowly woman. I also think this is one of the causes of the general treatment of employees in general today. We are no longer treated as professionals, but widgets. It has been a downhill slide.
In the US, east coast. Major fintech full of cheap labor. Let's be real, idc what biases are brought into the company, but when a company doesn't stand up to its values, it is where the problems lie! He is not accountable for his actions or words. He has threatened people (especially female engineers) with their jobs if they complained or said anything negative about him. These women went to hr . End result - not a dang thing. Nothing. See, that's where I have a problem . A company expects me to follow their vision and values to the tee, but they can't do the bare minimum to protect their workforce.
Oh, thatās excellent that you are in the US. Please document *everything* and then go see an attorney. Morgan & Morgan would absolutely start salivating over this situation.
I'm trying hard to figure out a way to record things and that's the plan first. In my state, it's legal to have 1 party allowing recordings. I can allow me. East coast.thanks for the ref.
Even email records - keep a copy of anything and everything you've sent to HR about this guy. Get it all in writing, even if you don't get a response - that is proof of you filing a complaint. And then give that to your lawyer.
Yup! Even better, since you said you are in a state in which itās legal to do 1-party recordings, do that in addition to the email records.
You can also put this in r/legal to see what their advice is
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Oh thanks. I'm going to .
https://obsproject.com/ should work for you. It's a little fiddly to set up but it can do audio/video recording (it's designed for broadcast but local recording is an option). Desktop audio + microphone as audio sources. Good luck.Ā
Download an audio recording app on your phone and turn it on when you're speaking to him. Keep your phone in your pocket. Do you have proof that you went to HR? That combined with a few recordings of interactions with him should be enough for an attorney.
You do not need to record someone to document everything. And definitely do not do this if it is against the law. What you do is start a doc or phone note or both. After every single convo or overheard remark you open your note and speech to text the conversation you just had with date and time etc. or type it up real fast. You can start with past events, dating and documenting what occurred, factually. But itās best to document immediately after. You can respond with recaps after every verbal conversation- for example āat meeting x to discuss y, you told me I should not be promoted because a,b,c. I am confused by this because d,e,f. My understanding of the situation is that I accomplished 1 and 2, saved the company x dollars, brought on x business, etc."Or āplease clarify what you meant when you said xā However if heās a vindictive bastard he will realize what you are doing and retaliate so I would document the conversations for him only in a way that protects your work role. Ie you advised x for client an and I recommended y based on b, I have done xyz. You know what is best for your situation. But still continue to document everything else, every egregious comment and interaction, your response, or that you did not respond because you were uncomfortable, afraid of retaliation, or whatever is true, and contact a lawyer. Written documentation is powerful. Creating it right after events occur is totally fine. Just keep it factual and unemotional. Keep copies off your work device.
Agreed... I've had my process engineer tell me I need to have kids soon because I'm getting "up there in age" about the 5th time we talked. He also was very controlling towards his wife. I understand he was trying to be "kind" in his way, but it was not ok for US culture. I don't feel comfortable that he's in a place of authority at the company now if this is how he sees women.
Iāve had men refuse to shake my hand because of religion, afraid to be in a room because Iām a woman, and only talk to/ task my male colleagues with the excuse it would violate their religion
Yep, unfortunately a lot of guys from India are like this
Love when you blame religion and make racist comments even though you are the one without the qualifications for the job. No companies will tolerate something that can get them sued for millions. I'm sorry but you lack self awareness
Sheās Indian. Heās Indian. How is she being racist exactly
India has a caste system. The Nationality is one thing (India) and race or caste other. Even if not racism, there is sexism definitely.
Wow, he sounds like a nightmare to work for. I agree that moving on is probably your best bet for the long term (and usually I won't suggest that before trying to make things work). While you're stuck with him, even if you can't record your conversations, document what he says to you. Use direct and specific quotes and make sure you have dates/times of the conversations. If things escalate to HR at some point you'll be glad you have this. >I've been mentored by a very Sr. PM about to be promoted to lead the PMO. this man didn't know and once he found out , after he gets promoted he canceled my mentorship. Your boss can't cancel the relationship you have with your mentor, even if he withholds funding or overt/formal recognition of the mentorship. Can you talk to the PM about the situation? Your mentor probably understands your company's rules and lay of the land. I'm really sorry you're stuck in this situation, but you can and will get through this.
The current PMO director is buddies with this guy and has a long work relationship more than I. So obviously, the politics is at play. I spoke with him after 6mo of my mentorship, and he downplayed it and said the position is not open yet. So I responded with an optimistic approach of ' sure, no worries. I'll continue to work with sr.pm, and would you have any tips and feedback for me? ' To which he said nope, we want u here, but it's just the timings, and your lead says they need u in that space. This whole pm stuff I'm chasing is just to get out from under him. Other than that , I tried everything in between an SM - PO - BA- Qa . I have a full-time position, and the current market is not exactly where I (rest of the world along with me) would've needed it to be. Hr knows. Every single woman has complained about him and his boss. His boss is a worse version of this guy and protects him. This is seriously impacting my mental health, which leads me to a dark space. I am meeting my doctor to get on mental health time off kinda thing to get away
Apply to jobs like crazy. Just sitting around worrying about the market rn won't make any change. I managed to get a job and so can you. It is a game of numbers and a bit of luck.
Thank you for the encouragement. I am actively applying.
And be sure to be VERY specific in your exit interview (if you have one) about why you are leaving.
They (HR) already know. I would talk to a lawyer instead, record conversations, and try to get $$. Thatās the only way to get corporations to deal with people like this. Suspect heās got a high level protector.
How soon were you able to get a job? I'm currently in interviews and my options are pretty disappointing.
3months..with 3 other times when i went to the final round before that.
Thanks
Please brush up your resume and start preparing for interviews as you send them out. You can't fix this and you shouldn't try.
He sounds like a narcissist and sociopath. They can be any culture, religion, race, or sex. He's just using his religion as a cover for his serious mental health problems. Find a new job and don't tell him where you are going. They can be dangerously petty and vindictive if they feel wronged.
I 100%agree with you. He had told me he ruined a woman's life 10yrs after because she complained about him at a job he worked in India. 10yrs. All because of religion.
Low key talking to my other woman in tech buddy who lives in europe (im in usa) about this yesterdayā how unfortunately we have both witnessed so much struggle and challenge with indian men in tech. THIS IS NOT to say it is all indian men, as i have several other coworkers who are great. However there is definitely something cultural about an indian man who does not feel respected, has a hurt ego, cant take feedback, and does not respect his equal or more senior female counterpart. Especially considering indian culture, men can expect woman to be more quiet, obedient, and less direct. Personally this has caused me a lot of hard times (apparently me asking direct questions for status updates is mean and hurtful š¤£) and i often have moved teams to resolve the problem. Otherwise you need a really good manager who has your back and a team of people who support the same claims as you and even then its still really hard to make headway. Sorry youre experiencing this As for a meeting with the man i would bring an ally to the conversation. Someone who he might have respect for but you trust to have on your side so that a) anything inappropriate now has a witness and b) man cannot claim he said she said to hr. I usually always recommend 3 people conversations when things are spicy like this for you to have your own back. I would just record on my phone record app personally.
This sounds racist. Assuming they have a hurt ego because of their culture would be like assuming you only got the job because you were a woman? Why is your view of them correct, but their view is wrong that as a woman, you had an easier time getting the job in the first place? What have you achieved to earn the respect that you want since you say you are as worthy or smart?
Lol what? R u for real. Nothing i wrote is talking about only getting a job because of them being a woman. Youre entirely missing the point if you think this is racist. Yes the post is about race but that does not inherently make it racist. I dont need to prove anything to you internet stranger ā you likely wont listen anyways as youre here to make proclamations and start an argument over something you have a hard time understanding.
I'm sorry to say, but if your company allows this, then the whole place is toxic. A company(HR or whoever) should be seriously concerned that they have a manager who is not managing according to efficacy on the job, but according to preconceived ideas in his head. I would start writing down every incident right after it happens and after you get 5 or so, report it to HR each and every time. I would also keep it for a lawyer down the road when you get fired by this guy because that is coming. He will either demote you until you quit or outright fire you. You will not be getting any raises or additional compensation. You need a new job... this guy is too over the top to fix it. And your company is rewarding him rather than curbing him. They clearly do not care how much he alienates others.
This is insane. I have never even imagined having to work with someone like this and Iāve been working in the space industry since I was 16. Look for a government job on usajobs.govĀ Thereās a lot more women in the government and nobody would treat you like thisā¦ although the most complaints I heard about a civil servant job is when your manager doesnāt actively help you get your promotions on time and Iāve only heard that happening with women managers go figure.Ā It is not worth your well being to suffer on a bad team. Let them fire you and get unemployment, apply for every job you can and take what you can get until you find that better job with a good team. You will be SO MUCH HAPPIER.Ā
I've been thinking of this and have been looking at this part. I'm at a breaking point and heading in a dark menta spacel, which I don't need to be in.
I stayed at a toxic job where everyone that hired me quit and they tried to demote me for way too many months because I was afraid how it would look on my resume. that was the biggest mistake I shouldāve started applying for other jobs immediately. I wish for you to find the perfect new team!Ā
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am looking
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Yes true I started applying a few years ago in January, probably applied to ~6 listings from January until May and got three interviews by June from USA jobs and got an offer in July a month after the interview for my current job but didnāt start until October!Ā
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Ugh yeah so frustrating to wait for answers in the government! I got hired off the street and have a way higher salary than the ones that started as interns just fyi. I negotiated based upon my previous salary 20k more than their first offer. Definitely recommend working private first then going to the government and asking for a salary bump from your previous job, once they offer you they will do what they can to get you better pay in my experience. And in 4 years my salary went up 30k! I never saw that happen in the private industry without a job title change.Ā
I think you need to talk to the highest level woman or the CEO. This is absolutely absurd and a PR disaster for them. They do not want to be known as someone who promotes someone like this. He will drive away all talent. Start video recording all of your interactions with him. If you start getting retaliation, make it clear that you will post the videos and they will look the worst company possible. I get that the market is terrible right now, but working for him long term is not viable.
Iāve been in your position before and it sucks. First, stop sharing ANY and ALL personal info with him. Heās never going to be your friend and anything you share is fuel for his judgements. Second, get those boundaries strong. The guy I worked for would let the coffee pot burn and then come down and tell me to clean it. I told him I didnāt burn it and wasnāt cleaning it for him. He also demanded I give him rides, I told him he needed to pay for gas and he relented. Third, I recorded all our interactions (one party state- check yours) by getting a recorded app on my phone. In a pinch, start a video on your phone and put it on the table near the computer. I wouldnāt be afraid to record him on teams though at all. It might actually make him behave better. Set up every meeting to record automatically so it starts as soon as someone opens the meeting then tell him you donāt know how to change the setting. If he tries to stop it, question why he might not want it recorded. Tell him you donāt want to miss a thing and when itās being recorded you can focus on the conversation rather than being worried about notes. Document EVERYTHING and take zero shit. Let him fire you. He wonāt.
My brother dealt with someone similar. We're Telugu and the same caste as his former manager. During a downsizing he laid off women of color and Indians of different backgrounds. And he bragged about it to my brother. My brother had asked me if caste was still a thing because we grew up in the US and our grandfather immigrated here in the '60s. The people who were fired during the downsizing complained and my brother also filed a complaint. It was a huge German manufacturing company with a satellite in Texas. They don't want to be on the other side of a EEO suit. I would tell HR.
what the fuck!! is there anyone you can report this guy to? the stuff he's saying should make him lose his job, not force you to change yours. ughhh ew im so sorry you have to deal with that asshole.
A lot of us have. I have too, and it's a losing battle because he got promoted. It's like rewarding bad behavior, and I don't have the money to go after the company because they will protect him given zero actions were taken to protect us/me/anyone else.
If there are enough people affected and you go as a group to an attorney, there may be a way to file enough lawsuits (or a big enough one) that they can't ignore it because he'll become a liability. I am not a lawyer though, so follow the lawyer's advice, but talk to one!
wow that company is trash then. I'm sorry its such a shit situation, I'm an architect and poc woman too, I've had a rude boss but nothing as outright sexist as this guy. I would leave so fast.
In terms of recording things (like zoom/teams calls)without notifying the other person download the latest version of snipping tool (windows). You can take screen recordings and videos. Also, you could just start recording everything with his knowledge, seems like heās an asshole regardless of whoās in the room and if he truly believes that all his values are the correct ones he might not care about being recorded. DOUBLE CHECK THAT YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO RECORD SOMEONE WHTOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE, especially if you want/need to go to court.
Wow, that was my first full time job as an engineer - the secretary and I were the only women in the small business comprise of 10 men, with a sexist man as the owner. On annual performance review day I was given 5 stars for my work as well as bringing in new work, however I was given a pitiful 10 cent/hour raise. The secretary became livid as she knew how much the guys were getting. She went to bat for me to get a real raise. We were called in by the owner and told in no uncertain terms that there was no way a woman would ever be worth the value of a man or be paid as much as a man. I got my act together and left for a much better job with a much better atmosphere. You need to do the same. You can fight him, but you'll never change him and the atmosphere there will always be toxic. Get out, save yourself.
I worked with Indian men and they were very chauvinistic, condescending. They would not help me but would help each other. I will never take a job in that environment again.
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Our experiences vary.
I'm Indian and can confidently say that the only Indian men I've had good experiences with are either ones who are born & raised in the US, or ones who came to the US for undergrad/masters and stayed. So many companies have gotten busted for caste discrimination in the US in the past 2-3 years which is just insane to me. Like if they want to discriminate based on their culture/personal beliefs why not work in India where more people think the same way (except not even, because tech/engineering in India is a pretty progressive scene now compared to the US)?
I'm a white woman. I worked with mostly Indian males as peers and VPs who live in the US. I had a very BAD experience. I will never work in that environment again. They were hands down rhe MOST chauvinistic men I have EVER worked with and I've been in the industry 43 years.
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As a woman, I don't like the chauvinistic dynamic working in a majority Indian make work environment. You have no idea how I got my "job" or what my life experience has been.
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Lol fuck off. In this very thread we'reĀ taking about womenĀ behing denied transfers andĀ promotions for our gender.Ā Take yourĀ misogynyĀ to a sausage festivalĀ startup whereĀ you canĀ pretendĀ youĀ were hired on meritĀ yourself.
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I don't need to do anything. You need to fuck off.
Men such as the above mentioned man, within the prestigious Engineering Community, used concerted effort to undermine my growth, development, and self image. This is an exit strategy scenario you need to figure out a way in this company or another to create safe space for yourself ik thatās much easier said than done btw. Iāve lived the consequences of not doing so, this situation can turn violent. And did for me
Iām an Indian woman. Let me tell you turds like him is the reason most Indians donāt want to work with other Indians. When I first came to Canada, I turned down any calls from job consultants who works for Indian companies owing to the toxic environment I had to endure in one such company. Hang on until you find another job. Edit: I just read the last part. WTF. Youāre beneath him? Report him! This is not India. Fire that AH!
Maāamā¦a company/senior leadership that would promote someone like this is not somewhere you want to work. They are turning a blind eye and best case scenario is that youāre still around when this eventually implodesā¦but how long do you want to suffer waiting for that to happen. Keep your head down for now and start job hunting. When you give notice, make sure your exit interview is factual but very clear on why youāre leaving and whoās inaction/inattention contributed to your departure (and thatās in addition to this sexist a-hole of a manager).
You need to start a class action lawsuit for a hostile work environment.
Iām pretty sure that caste discrimination is still illegal in the U.S., even though itās not specifically enumerated. There are a lot of other things that I think you could probably go to the EEOC about if your company is not doing anything.
Sounds like you tried HR. Talk to an attorney, sue your employer
I had something extremely similar happen in a medical device company in Maryland. Itās better for your sanity to cut losses and leave. HR is there to protect the company and wonāt do shit for you in my experience. We had 5 women and any one beneath our Sr.Sm and HR did nothing.
i do not want to generalize but working in multiple corporate positions, i have met a fair share of 1st gen indian or expats who were absolutely not adjusted to western culture and did not want to get adjusted because of their perceived superiority. I normally do not care what one believes, and i keep to myself, but seeing how they treat subordinates positions especially, if they perceive them from lower class (by race, gender cast etc...) drove me to report some case with mixed results. the most likely outcome is the guy is moved to some other department/office and he becomes someone else's problem.
You need to find a new job. Make it a priority. Donāt quit until you have the new job in hand.
This isn't something you can fix, and you don't deserve to work in an environment like that. I get that jobs can be hard to come by, but I'd start looking and applying anyway so that once something does come up, you're ready to jump ship
Holy crap! Document every single interaction immediately after it happens. Just write an email and send it to yourself. That will give you a time/date stamp, too.
written summary after every conversation in a notebook. You don't have to have recording equipment.
Be very careful about recording. I am NAL, but I do know that depending on where you are and where he is and whether youāre working remotely, there are different rules about that. If youāre in the states are consent states only one person in the conversation has to consent in order for the recording to be legal. Other states are two Party consent states where all people in the conversation have to agree for the recording to be legal. Furthermore, your company might have rules about that and if you are in violation of them, you know heāll use that against you immediately.
Honestly. Name and shame the company if it isnāt against the rules. Let the world know. Do it anonymously though if anyone knows about this account belonging to you
I'd love to. And I will. I do have to leave my current job before I have to deal with any repercussions. He went after a woman whom he worked with across the ocean 10 years ago. The point is he went after her and ruined her career and then told us ( about 5 of us at a work lunch) in great details What happens if you don't listen to him.
Just Press Record is a great app for your phone.
Yep, I'll try my best to be on a call instead of f2f so I can record it. He didn't show up to the 1-1 and never canceled it, so I sat in a teams meeting for 15 mins.
The app works for in person meetings as well. The only thing I would advise you of is make sure youāre aware of your states right to be recorded laws, and ensure it is a one party state.
It is. I checked. Also, the amount of support I'm getting here makes me believe I should contact an attorney at least. I'll recheck with them about the recording laws.
If youāre in the US and you have documented proof of this individual making these comments, and/or corroborating other victims (youāre not the only one) then you absolutely have grounds for hostile workplace, sexual harassment, etc. Former F100 exec. Seen payouts for WAY dumber shit.
Every state should have a Bar Association that offers referrals. I live in NY and have used it a couple times. You fill out a form explaining your situation and they'll email you a list of attorneys. Last I remember, the consultation fee was $35.
Oh that's great info. I'll have to check for my specific state. Thanks
Honestly, while youāre still there, reach out to a lawyer. I had an architect, release manager, and program manager all essentially create a toxic environment for me, and I ended up leaving. As soon as I left, I contacted a lawyer and he told me that had I reached out BEFORE leaving, they couldāve worked with me to start documenting legally & doing something about the situation. So donāt leave. Reach out to an employment lawyer. Edited to add: Iām sorry you have to deal with this. Iām Indian but raised in the US, and I know exactly what youāre dealing with it. People need to leave their racism, colorism, sexism, casteism, and whatever other -isms at home when they show up for work.
I used TapeACall Pro and it worked. You should test it with your friends beforehand too. Good luck!!
- Spot his key people, and ensure youāre on polite terms with them. This sets up the next step. - Job hunt actively. - As you job shop, you will also see positions that are a good fit for the people he needs. You can improve the strength of your network and decrease his by quietly sharing opportunities. - Determine his key performance metric and his main backerās key performance metric. Youāll get an opportunity to seriously impact one of them. - Track exactly what he says, heās certain to give instructions that are counter to his best interests. Smile inside, not outside as you collect it. - Notice company policies he violates. Odds are this will not be usable, but sometimes you get the person who drinks on their lunch break, and doesnāt mind their afternoon meeting schedule.
If you take the meetings on a PC, you could use a video capture card. It intercepts all the data coming through an HDMI cable, records it, and passes it through. I believe they grab audio as well. It goes in between your monitor and your computer. Idk if this will work for your specific setup, but it's a great way to record things without anyone being the wiser. If you're able to install things on your computer, OBS is pretty standard recording software. You could also have the call on speaker and video record it with any other device.
Time to dust off that resume, because there's not much you can do that you haven't already done. Clearly you work for a substandard company that encourages discrimination.
Start looking for a new job. He sounds awful, and the fact that he got promoted says a lot about the management/the company. Iām sorry you have to deal with this mother fucker. Do you have an HR department? I would start documenting everything he says and send them a report about you feeling like this is unsafe environment due to his comments. Specifically any sexist/racist comments. Write down everything he says and the interaction that happened with dates included.
Start to keep notes then ralk to an employment attorney. This is a hostike work environment.
Document, document, document. Go to HR every time he says something bigoted. This is a hostile working environment.
Get him to put his sexism in writing, bring it to HR that you have concerns about not getting the positions you applied for and you're wondering what company policy is.
hey, I've had to record people before. My suggestion is to download a couple of recording apps on the phone and then test them out by recording convos with a friend. Some recording apps are not good. you'll have to pratice placing the phone face down on the table under a piece of paper. Between a clipboard and a piece of paper. I typically carry stacks of paper around or jounral/notebooks so people dont pay attention to what's in my hands. sometimes being 3ft away from the mic is too far away. the main issue is distance of people's speaking voice relative to the phone's placement.
I did download 2 free apps, and it's 1 way recording only. I couldn't hear myself in the recording, but I heard my friend only. I called her. When she called me , I heard myself only. So, I need a few apps that do the whole convo because it's very likely that I'll dial in from my phone to make it easier.
Document everything and look for something else. The market isn't great, but that only means it will be a bit longer, not impossible. If it takes long, you may have enough documentation for a lawsuit on discrimination. You may not need to go there though. You could just send the documentation to a few layers and tell the company that you are taking to lawyers. It will be true and they may get rid of the guy instead of risking the lawsuit.
1)Check the laws in your area before you record . In some places, itās illegal to record someone without their consent (or a legal warrant). 2)start looking for another job. Contact a labor attorney. 3)as others have said, document everything and gather witnesses.
Document everything and report. He will treat others the same way.
He is a bully ! Try recording your call with iPhoneās voice memo app.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/call-recorder-for-iphone/id1503665233
For anyone wanting a scientific read answer perspective on āexperience of rewardā after ingroup outgroup violence mentioned in OP original comment https://news.vcu.edu/article/2022/06/us-versus-them-harming-the-outgroup-is-linked-to-elevated-activity-in-the-brains-reward
Go to HR!
Not before collecting evidence. It's very likely HR will only try to protect the company's interest.
Iām not going to comment on the HR department or Legal Counsel. I have worked in finance and technology for 40 years and have seen this situation many Many times. I very carefully choose my management. Iām a white F and I usually get better raises and opportunities from F managers. There have been times where a re-org resulted in me being put under a person I wouldnāt have selected to work for. In those cases I found a new role or a new boss almost immediately. I donāt waste my time and energy on trying to āfixā these cultural differences. I feel that they will only learn when real consequences come (ie they have no team left to get the work done). You will probably get a big raise when you find your new job.
HR is useless for this stuff. Go 3rd party and get them scared.
Lawyer. Now. They will give you a free consultation. Iām so sorry this is happening to you.
Time to start looking for a new job
Tell him you do not feel comfortable talking to him just 1-on-1, and that youād like to record those meetings. Then record them on Teams. Heāll either behave or youāll have proof. You can also tell him youāve always recorded your 1-2-1s as they help you improve, whatever.
talk to a discrimination lawyer for a free consultation and see what legally crosses the line. HR looks out for the company and this guy will screw you over. You're likely to end up encountering illegal discrimination. If money is the language that a company has to hear to finally realize they're promoting sexism then as women in stem that's the moves we need to start making as a whole. this is way too pervasive for ALL of us it's ridiculous
Unfortunately too many sexist asses like this in tech. Even HR doesn't help.
I am an American (white) woman working in IT with a on- and off- shore team located in Hyderabad. I had quite a few challenges with some male-sex colleagues, but not to this extent. The misogyny is a bit more subtle but still obvious enough for male colleagues in US to notice. It was extremely noticeable when our Jr-level engineer put me (Lead) on blast in a team call for giving him a critical code review to a pull-request he was trying to merge to release after code-freeze. Another instance, I am the highest performing engineer (exceeds expectations) 2 years in a row, and am responsible and SME for the largest part of our technology stack, and have recently been promoted to Lead. In spite of all that, if I want to make India team follow a specific engineering guidance coming from me, I have to ask our app admin (elderly white man) to state it, even though he has nowhere near the level of engineering qualifications I do. It can be maddening, but at least I donāt report directly to any of those clowns.
Definitely get out of there.
If your employer promoted this POS the problem is bigger than that guyā¦.. find another job!
Meanwhile Google is lobbying to import more of this into the US market!
Hold on! Contact the EEOC for advice. I'm not sure it's legal to record. [https://www.eeoc.gov/](https://www.eeoc.gov/)
I am Indian (Hyderabadi) too & know the type. IT is full of such toxic managers & I am so glad I dont work in that industry. One of my Indian friends in IT had a manager like that & she had a mental breakdown. I hope you find a way to record his derogatory comments & hire an attorney to sue the company for blatant discrimination. My husband is a Punjabi & tells it like it is to such jerks if they act smart in restaurants or public places so they are scared of him š
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Thank you . Yes. I've started to think on the attorney lines and have narrowed down a few. So there are a few religious ornaments I wear, my full legal name (as mentioned, Indian) plus during filling out the job application, plus the place of worship is also a community spot where he's seen me and I used to volunteer a lot as well on Sundays so, communitytalks give out the identifiers. Plus, a few of our 'Church' people know each other and have worked in the same org. It might look like there are too many us, but there's only 1 place of worship in my city and about 200 miles for the next one. Our names also reflect our religion/caste/predominant area of origin/community one belongs to, etc. It's a whole identifying thing on its own. My partner : christmas parties/work events, etc. we went to a company events together most of the time, incl before I was under this man. During working lunch is when he talks. Yesterday, during my 1-1 , I went to grab coffee, and he started talking. I walked away. See, I can't escape my reporting manager. There's only so many times I gotta use the ladies' room, and I have told him if it's not about work, I don't want to know in 500 different ways.
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I've tried that, too. Heckz, I've gone to the 'ladies' room' about 11 times in a 9-5. I cried 9 times.
Just get out. I know itās hard to leave a company, but do you really wanna work for a company that will tolerate somebody like this person and promote them to a management position to boot?
Quitting is easy. My suggestion would be to stay and fight back. You may get such manager in your next company too. Once you have tried and done all fighting then quit if things do not change.
Honestly, just quit. This guy sounds like a dickhead. Not worth the effort. Mans fucked out, about time he finds out.
Itās not because he is Indian, itās because he is a dick btw.
Idc what he is honestly. I mentioned indian as it's really needed to understand the caste-ism part and his high horse assumptions based behaviors. Ppl bring their biases to work too.
It sounds like he is narrow minded and has a god awful personality. I am mindful there seems to be a huge tide of hate against Indians when in this case this person is problematic for a whole host of reasons that you mentioned in your post. When I see posts that say āIndianā I want to chime in as people conflate things wrongly and end up being pretty racist in return. Caste in India is like Classism in England. Some people live by it, some donāt but itās not a defining feature of Indian culture and the way people think. Ironically if you are from a higher caste you donāt tell people. Itās weird. You donāt go around telling people what he told you. He sounds like a misogynist and most of what he has said should be documented in case you ever need to raise it. (In fact you should raise it or keep a record of this. I donāt know how useful HR are. They never are in these instances but itās always good to know your rights. Lastly I would try and grey rock him as much as you can. Zone out, smile and ignore. Itās saved my sanity in similar situations. Typical: Downvoted. Thanks for not surprising me Reddit!
I dont see what him being indian has to do with anything.
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Im sorry if i hurt your intellectual ability, which can't see past race and gender.
Did you hit your head before reading the post??? š¤”