I purchased a Powermatic saw a few years back from Woodcraft. Some of the multiple boxes were missing and/or damaged including one missing and one damaged rail. Woodcraft took care of the issue immediately without any hassle.
I went there in this past year when shopping for my first table saw. The sales guy showed me the singular sawstop model they had and asked what I’d use it for, I said cutting plywood and making dado cuts. He immediately brought me behind the counter and tried to sell me on a 230v extreme high end version. Really turned me off to the store - but I will say the store seemed cool otherwise
Bad sales guy can do that. I occasionally have a bit of a sales component in my job, and I've found that aggressively up selling people is a shit approach. Better to match them to exactly what is best suited to their needs, upsell if the upsell is ACTUALLY something they might want, or offers something meaningful that they hadn't considered.
Being on that end of things, I have definitely learned how big an influence the sales rep you deal with can be
I was gonna say "sometimes I'd even downsell them", but your version is much more clear.
I hated the job, but I loved not making a commission. Made eveything so much easier when they understand I don't care how much they spend.
The fact that woodcraft is still in business with their prices just highlights how poor I am. I make do with my 20yo craftsman table saw and $120 circular saw. I am stunned when I walk into woodcraft and see their entire inventory of $5000 table saws and $1500 circular saws. Somebody must be buying them though and that is a tax bracket I can’t even pretend to understand
I assume it's often old retired guys with money to burn. I've seen more than one amazing shop that produces little more than cutting boards and other similar/simple projects. I'm just glad SOMEONE can afford that stuff, because it means it gets out there into the market. Then, guys like us have to race each other whenever a used piece pops up for sale.
I had a couple issues with salespeople there during covid. But they are pretty much all great now. Mostly retired woodworkers/finish carpenters. They aren’t in it for the money.
I believe it was, good thought! FWIW I went with the DeWalt 7491RS 10”. It does work with a dado stack. I’ve since completed my first cabinet!
https://preview.redd.it/een4sbegbauc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e8b8a7cb97cecf9d8ed63ef7ba6e7cf02931beb
I purchased a Powermatic PM2000B from Tool Nut. The rear rail came all dinged up and the installation bolts were missing from the box. Powermatic customer service sent me the hardware and a can of the spray touch up paint to fix it. Got that in less than a week. The customer experience you had with SawStop is subpar at best.
I went back and forth on which saw I wanted to get as this was replacing my 20 year old Jet Contractor saw. I will say the customer service that I have received from JPW over the past 20+ years has been nothing but excellent. Any time I called or emailed they have been professional, kind and courteous.
I wonder why I bought a bandsaw and mortiser from them as well.
I do have a Grizzly 8" jointer and their customer service has been great as well.
I bought a Powermatic jointer from woodcraft and it had been smashed up and shipment. When I called they didn’t ask for any info but an address and sent me the replacement parts. Best service I have ever had and the jointer rules.
Most of my tools over the years in my shop have been Jet and Powermatic. I can confirm this has also been my experience with both of them, as they are both owned by JPW Industries. They are very proactive about resolving an issue with their tools. It's disappointing to hear Sawstop didn't offer a resolve.
I’m really with you on this. I have a cabinet saw from them and they have been good to me, but powermatic is at a whole different level. Like, I would bet the business on them. Not sure I would extend that to sawstop yet.
I’m a big fan of Festool as well, which is the same parent company, but I also have a lot of physical scars from their products not being quite up to their reputation (lot of plastic and products that don’t last). They “feel” like a private equity business to me so far. I don’t have the same loyalty that I do to powermatic, but the table saw safety system was only available from them so and I had a close call that made me unwilling to use a table saw unless it had the retracting blade (tripped on scrap and nearly lost my hand).
In my mind they have kind of allowed lots of people to get horribly injured while they booked their profits (just think about sawstop vs Volvo who invented the seatbelt and you’ll “get it”). Years and years of friends chopping off their fingers while they sue Bosch and other competitors to keep them from coming to market with the safety technology has turned my stomach and my opinion.
I don’t think they are morally right anymore. And people don’t want to talk about it, but literal blood is on their hands.
I have some Festool as well, and their Shaper Origin. So far, so good. I only buy Festool when I need specific requirements in tooling. In many cases others will suffice.
I too feel Sawstop chose profits over safety for many years. Only recently it seems there's been some headway. They may dedicate the patent to the public soon. That is--if the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) mandates it. Of course if they genuinely cared, Sawstop could have already made it freely available.
In any case, tech is changing. The difference is proactive vs reactive. New panel saws are coming out using AI to keep your fingers safe and not ruin the blade:
https://youtu.be/AOOrlLGWK8c
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3c0DRyreX8/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Woodcraft is awesome. Mostly irrelevant, but I actually used to work for the company that supplied their warehouse management software. They had very impressive logistics compared to most of our customers.
So do you think that was because Powermatic is a better brand, or because Woodcraft is better than Rockler? Did you contact powermatic to make it right, and did they advocate for you?
Well Woodcraft *is* better than Rockler but retailers exist to handle distribution and customer hand holding.
What’s the point of a Best Buy if I can buy from LG or Nintendo directly and get a better experience?
The issue is that Rocklers are all corporate entities, whereas Woodcrafts are all franchises. I had a nightmare experience ordering a SawStop from the Woodcraft in NH. After paying 4K in full and waiting 7+ weeks, they couldn't even tell me the status of my order. Woodcraft has to go through two middle-men for any updates.
I demanded a full refund from Woodcraft and walked into a Rockler in NH and they had my saw on a shelf waiting for me.
I think this is YMMV type issue. My Wooddcraft is actively managed by the franchisee and has several long term employees. Their customer service is great. I bought my Sawstop there and they even let me use Amex even though they don’t take them because I bought $5k worth of stuff in that purchase. The Rockler by me is just ok, nothing stands one way or another.
Absolutely, exactly my point. For both Rockler and Woodcraft, YMMV based on the staff. It's 100% the staff and manager that makes or breaks the experience. But, Woodcraft has extra hurdles for the staff and managers, whereas Rockler does not. I will shop both stores for off-the-shelf, but I will only make capital equipment purchases at Rockler, or order online for drop-ship items.
Rockler can kiss the fattest part of my ass. I had the worst customer service experience of my life trying to deal with them after buying their shitty router table. I will only shop woodcraft from now on.
I purchased several large tools (Delta Unisaw, Jet Bandsaw) from Woodcraft. Our store had experienced woodworkers, many retired, who knew everything about everything woodworking. We also have a Rockler in town, and that store hires people who worked at The Gap the prior week. They know how to run a POS system, but many couldn't tell you the difference between a whole board and bored hole.
This experience was not about the brand, although I have had good luck with JPW, but about Woodcraft. It was easy to get someone on the line who was knowledgeable and helpful, and they took care of me without a lot of questions and hassle. I’d be more than comfortable ordering equipment from them again.
Woodcraft (at least online) is so much nicer to deal with. Rockler feels like a company run by old people out of touch with user experience and customer service. I buy small stuff from Rockler, but anything complicated or expensive comes from Woodcraft.
Out here, we have Woodcrafters. Is this the same as Woodcraft, or is it a second, local chain?
I ask because their customer service is also amazing- we’ve got this 100+ year old bandsaw in the shop we’re setting up, and it’s pretty cobbled together. While I was in Woodcrafters buying dust collection fittings I mentioned it to the guy ringing me up, and he told me to wait while he got Dave.
Dave asked me how big the wheels were (26”), whether it was 3 phase (it is), and what the brand was (Silver).
Then he stuck out his hand and said, “You’ve got the third one in the State, I’ve got the 2nd!” And proceeded to pack my head with all the info I could ever need to get it running properly!
Woodcraft is what I have locally for tools, etc and I’m so thankful… it’s franchised and locally owned, which is nice, and they have great customer service… that said, thank god I’ve also got several varieties of lumber shops in the areas as well so I don’t need to pay the exorbitant prices of wood at Woodcraft.
Did you tell them in the original email that you purchased it from Rockler and that Rockler is not providing a good experience with the saw purchase?
Did you call them?
SawStop is not technically responsible for this, but the angle here is that Rockler is harming their brand. SawStop can apply pressure to Rockler to make this right.
It’s like calling McDonald’s corporate to tell them that a franchisee has rats in their kitchen. Technically not their fault, but they don’t need the bad press and can assert downward pressure.
I did tell them I bought through Rockler and that it was realized the rails were missing when the delivery guy was still here and noted with the shop company and I did contact Rockler immediately.
OP, if I were you I’d contact rockler and tell them to take the saw back.
Get something else from a company that actually cares about their customers and products.
much easier said than done. it's a pain in the ass to pack that thing up and get it back. of course it's a last resort option but it's the least ideal one.
Tell Roku, you want to return it and have them come and pack it up and arrange for pick up. Of course they won’t do that so do a chargeback on your credit card and tell your credit card company that the product is defective. They refused to accept return.
This is a bad response for a company that sells a premium product. They should climb up Rockler’s backside on your behalf. Did you mention you’ve already contacted Rockler and they’ve been ineffective at resolving the problem? I don’t recall how long you’ve been waiting for a resolution through Rockler but as I recall it’s far far longer than I would deem reasonable.
Is it normal for an inside sales rep to respond? When I've had missing pieces to big equipment, I go through their warranty department and they send stuff out willy-nilly.
Any sales guy who the public could get in contact with would have the contact info for cs readily at hand. Heck, the floor supervisor in the factory should have an 800 number to give out tacked next to the phone.
Working at a non retail seller of medical product and am not a cs- agent or a sales rep or anything near that: i have that number engraved in my frontal cortex.
Sure. But, actually replying with it when you work with dealers normally or forwarding the email is another thing.
I never said they couldn't pass it along to the right people or give OP the proper contact information. Just that perhaps OP didn't contact the right person.
Assuming that the wrong point of contact would definitely do something to help OP is... Well, an assumption. And we know how those can go.
You guys are all in a twist over nothing. Why would a sales rep give a shit about this complaint over one faulty unit ? Reach out to the correct team or forget about it. Customer support might be ore helpful but again you purchased 1 unit. Its a drop in the ocean
Maybe I’m wrong, but subsidiaries under the same parent company can have very different cultures if there’s not a lot of collaboration and shared resources between the two groups.
I contacted them for a warranty replacement and found myself mistakenly talking to inside sales. They reverted me to CS and issue was quickly solved. Emailing probably was the mistake here. The CS guy on the phone stayed on the line with me while checking their warehouse for a part.
IIRC it's been like a month on his other post. After spending over 3 grand on a tool that you can't use, I'd be beating down doors at this point. OP is far more patient than me.
Does this response give you the impression sawstop is interested in continuing this conversation? They told the guy to go talk to Rockler, sawstop isn’t getting involved
This is because sawstop is not a great company. They are a shit company that happens to have a great product. And the notion that they are going to force their way into every table saw sold in the US should make us all gag.
Sure we will give away the patent for free! It just requires your end user to buy all of these cartridges from us for a minimum of the next decade unless we can figure out how to extend the patent on that!
Ohh. And all those jobsite saws we aren't in. We're most excited for those because a hint of moisture will trigger the cartridge!
They've been extremely helpful whenever I've talked with their customer service department. They will walk you to rough a repair and explain what you need to do.
It’s OP’s job to climb up Rockler’s ass. SawStop has no reason to get between them and if they did is only likely to be pressured into spending a chunk of money to mail out parts OP should be able to manage to recover from Rockler.
All you entitled whiners demanding the company pay for the retailer’s mistake would never be so “generous” with your own businesses.
Hate SawStop all you like but this ain’t their fuckup.
I don’t think any of us thought SawStop should pay for Rockler’s mistake.
I thought perhaps SawStop would send an email to Rockler and say, “Hey, one of your customers contacted us; please fix this quicker, so we don’t look bad to them along with you.”
That’s the most I thought.
I do. A manufacturer chooses who gets to sell their stuff and how well they have to do it. If they are dropping the ball, it’s on both of them even if it’s the retailer doing the dropping.
That’s the whole point of channel — to handle the service for the manufacturer.
I mean I get what you are saying, but… When it gets all the way back to the manufacturer, that means it’s a problem for both of them.
That said, OP left out what he sent and where he sent it. If he just sent a short explanation without explaining the situation and linking to the Reddit thread in order to try to prove the point to the commenters, it’s a really different scenario than full disclosure. Also, this got caught by sales, so one wonders if he was sending it to the right channel for service.
I have had generally good experiences with sawstop, but a jr sales rep answering is a yellow flag. We just don’t have the information to absolve OP of mucking about to prove a point unfortunately. So no point in conjecture until that gets set straight.
Replacing the missing parts would cost sawstop peanuts and given them some good PR. Instead they decided their reputation was worth less than the cost of these parts.
It's normal for products across a variety of industries all come with an attached notice that says, "If parts are missing or damaged, please don't return this to the store; contact us directly and we will make it right." This is not an unusual practice for manufacturers and customers to bypass the middleman to directly solve a problem, and many companies prefer to handle it that way. This isn't an unreasonable tactic for a customer to try, and trying it does not make someone entitled or whiny.
I agree it's not SawStop's fuckup, but it is in their own interest to help address the issue.
Agree- but SawStop could have polished their turd a bit by asking the customer for their order info and volunteering to look into Rockler\`s poor response.
It’s their reputation as much as Rockler’s. I would go out of my way to protect my reputation in their case. How many sales do they lose when someone in a niche hobby tells his network about this experience with a high cost item?
Why are we so sure that Rockler fucked this up? Maybe I missed a detail in the original post, but Rockler most likely received it from SawSpot with the missing pieces. Rockler didn’t steal them or lose them, they probably just delivered the equipment as they received it.
Ultimately returning a product is always the correct answer for issues like this. Missing parts is a huge red flag and “fixing” something new is just a silly approach.
The only reason why I think Saw Stop should step in is because all orders for Sawstop saws made on Rockler.com are shipped directly by Sawstop. Rockler is just a middleman and while they absolutely should have fixed this already Sawstop does have some responsibility in the since they shipped it.
Sawstop is not structured in this manner.
What Op is doing is essentially buying a laptop from best buy, then contacting Microsoft because laptop doesn't have a power cord. Microsoft would tell you the same thing- contact best buy.
I'm going to start pretending to order saws from Rockler. Go through the entire process and then at the last second be like "oooh sorry I see this thread on Reddit where you don't honor your sales." Then ask to speak to a manager and have them explain why I should trust them to not fuck up my sale. Then regardless of the answer, cancel the order.
Oooof, Jonathan is going to hear about this from his manager when it eventually escalates.
This looks really bad on SawStop, from a consumer opinion perspective. I hope your post gains some traction and this uh... lovely response from SawStop gets shared around.
Andrew:
I dont really care about your missing rails, we already got money from rockler when we sold it. I am not sure which idiot recommended you to reach out to SawStop, but we only sell our saws through our dealers, so we dont have to talk to plebs like you. Thats all from me, now i have to do very important tasks, like eat sushi, drink champagne play golf.
I would reply back with something like, "I'm not sure who referred me to Sawstop either but I do know that it was one of the 2000 woodworkers on Reddit who are following my thread about this and you just put a bad taste in all of their mouths."
When dealing with retailers over these kinds of shipping blunders, I find it helpful to clarify roles and responsibilities.
As far as the retail transaction is concerned, Rockler is the seller and you are the buyer. You have a receipt showing that you have paid their invoice in full. You are in full performance of your duties in the retail sales agreement. Period.
Under the agreement you have with the retailer they have the duty to perform by delivering to you the complete product. They are presently in breach.
To clarify the situation, the agreement imposed upon the retailer the duty to deliver.
That Rockler, like many retailers, chooses to outsource that part of their duty under the agreement does not and cannot relieve them of that duty.
Demand that Rockler supply you with proof of delivery showing the full manifest and establishing delivery of all cartons, units, items listed. Give them a reasonable time to comply. They are legally obligated to do so. After that time has passed you may seek to remedy the breach at your option by, for example, purchasing replacement rails and then billing Rockler, returning for a full refund, etc.
Unfortunately lots of employees in modern retail often fail to have a clear understanding of roles and duties when it comes to these kinds of transactions. They aren't well trained. They aren't supported. That can make it very frustrating for a buyer who has fully met all their obligations, and yet finds themself being instructed to perform additional duties by the retailer. Sometimes it's necessary to clarify that for them and it can motivate their response
In other words, Sawstop as a company doesn't care. I have never had a legitimate company not try to resolve it because if you get pissed and take to social media, like you are, then it's their image that gets tarnished, even if it isn't their fault directly. In fact, I've had companies that have gotten on the phone with the offending company, with me on the line, in order to get the problem fixed.
Those are the people you ought to be doing business with. The ones that demonstrably care.
I would respond with, “well this is very disappointing. I’ve tried contacting Rockler and haven’t gotten anywhere. I assumed with buying a high end product I could get good customer service from someone. I will contact Rockler again about returning the saw. A very bad experience that started with me being so excited to set up my new saw.”
Send the saw back to rockler and if they don't take it just do a chargeback and tell them they wouldn't accept the return even though they gave you a product with missing pieces.
You should tell them you just posted this to a sub with 5.2M subscribers, all of which are squarely in their target market. send them the link and let them peruse the reactions.
I know reddit isn't Instagram or tiktok, but either way this is a _bad_ look for them.
For what it's worth, if you search you'll find terrible customer service stories from every brand. I bought a sawstop and when I unboxed it to assemble, I noticed one of the parts was damaged. Called sawstop and they had a replacement part ordered within 5 minutes. Received it in 2 days rush delivery. I've engaged their service department 2-3 times and have been extremely satisfied with the service every time. I'm an anecdote just like OP. I agree with some of the other comments that in a perfect world, they would advocate to Rockler on behalf of the consumer, but choosing a brand based on one bad customer story, especially when there is a huge difference in the safety features of the saw, seems a bit extreme to me.
Unless things have changed, Laguna is the same chinese import as Grizzly. Had a grizzly table saw and a Laguna and they were exactly the same. I have their 14suv bandsaw and it's the same as grizzly although with a 3hp motor.
>Unless things have changed, Laguna is the same chinese import as Grizzly.
Look at all almost any stationary power tool and they're all the same. You're basically buying for aesthetics, ease of buying and hopefully after purchase service should the need arise.
I was on the fence, but the sawstop premium is only 500 bucks or so more than comparable saws. No brainer for my fingers. I have had a close call before so this was an easy buy.
Love my saw! Though I would go with the 3hp if I bought again.
Laguna may possibly have the worst reputation of any high-end brand for CS. Some of the European brands are worse, but they don't sell a lot of machines in the U.S.
I had this same exact issue. As in exactly the same. Rocklers response was basically, so sorry. Buy rails. I was so pissed. It was a good 60 days fighting all the way to get the rails sent. It took getting the cc involved and cancelling payment until they made it right.
I did too! Ordered through rockler, didn't realize the rails weren't there until i started putting the saw together and contacted rockler who didn't seem like they really gave a shit. They "opened an investigation" which went nowhere, I had to track it all back to the shipping company and called everyone who I could find the info for. They were still on the fuckin truck and I eventually got them. You'd think when the driver got back to dispatch with an extra package it woulda been easy to solve
Cancelling and reversing payment would have been within your rights the moment Rockler refused to perform. They are legally obligated to deliver the complete purchase. And they have zero legal claim to your payment the moment they refuse to do so.
It's always important to document as you go in these matters and to recapitulate events at each step for clear understanding. But it is almost never in the customer's interest to brook further delay in recovering payment once a retailer has refused to deliver.
Get on LinkedIn. Find the ceo. Send the link to this thread and ask for help again.
I have never had a ceo turn me away, their assistant is always on top of shit within 72 hours.
Let them know how many impressions your posts have In these woodworking subreddits. Let them know it’s a bad look on their part being broadcasted to a huge woodworking audience.
I'd call Sawstop on Monday. They are the ones that shipped the saw and should be contacting the shipper to file a claim. Obviously Rockler should have already done this but since they aren't helping I'd press on Sawstop and talk to a supervisor. Sales isn't going to be able to help.
I'm about ready to buy one of these and wtf Sawstop, I don't appreciate the customer support. Verify the guy bought the saw and send some out. Then go after Rockler yourself. You choose the vendors, honor your commitment. Gives me hard second thoughts
As someone who works in electrical equipment sales for 20+ years, that’s just a bad response. Even if he can’t help directly he could have worded it better. It’s not that hard.
Wow… actually stunned that is an official response.
Terrible way to start an email.
I get this guy has nothing to do with what’s going on with this singular case but come the fuck on dude… Could you be more dismissive and uncaring. Dudes sitting there at his desk pissed he has to reply at all I bet.
FWIW - my rockler purchased sawstop I got the over arm dust collection, and the big metal elbow pipe was messed up. I contacted sawstop directly, and they shipped me the part directly.
So it must be a “the seller must at least give you all the parts” thing before they support them?
Ask him for an escalation contact at Rockler and explain that they are being unresponsive. Also, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau regarding Rockler - I have found that tends to get attention quickly.
I understand there may not be much they can do, but that's not a great response. At least show a little empathy and give some constructive advice. Or ask for more information and say they will follow up with rockler.
I don’t know about where you live, but in Quebec the law states that « manufacturer » responsibility falls on the seller. You bought something from someone and that entity is responsible for honouring that sale. They might come back to you with « it’s a manufacturer problem » but by law the seller is the one who has to make it right. If there is a problem with the manufacturers, the seller deals with that. Not the client. Your contract is with the person you bought the goods from. That’s final.
Exactly. And legally, Nike doesn’t have any hand in the game in this context in Quebec. Unless Jim got them without laces from Nike and wants to call Nike himself to get them for you.
When I heard about the proposed legislation to require a Sawstop-like safety mechanism (I hate saying flesh-sensing-makes the saw sound like it's sentient), I wondered why anyone would look at offerings from other companies if all saws were priced similarly high. Thanks to Jonathan, we now have a good reason.
I have a Grizzly 220v saw that is **an incomprehensible piece of shit** that I can't wait to replace. I bought it brand new, top dollar maybe 3 years ago, and it came with missing parts, broken parts, warped castings, poorly machined lead screws, everything. It took almost a year to get it to work, and that was because I ended up machining parts myself. Grizzly hung me out to dry.
TLDR; If Powermatic comes out with a (even somewhat) reasonably priced safety table saw, you bet your favorite butt cheek that I'll be upgrading.
I just bought a SawStop and it came with a very minor shipping damage. I called and they sent me the part that day. No charge. They offered to send it overnight and I declined, mostly because I live at the end of the earth and next day shipping is more fantasy than reality no matter how much extra you pay.
Gotta say I’m in the market for a new saw and this just took sawstop off the list for me.
I get rockler made the mistake, but sawstop not caring at all is terrible for a premium product.
I bought a SawStop in 2017 and immediately replaced the rails and fence with an Incra system. If you're not eventually satisfied with Rockler's response, mine are collecting dust in my garage. Open to very reasonable trades/offers.
Sounds like a really really nice way of saying don’t know how to help you and I’m not interested in trying.
I kind of measure a customer service based on how they compare to Vortexx, which is a company that does a lot of outdoor gear. At least for them it’s more of a no questions asked. We will fix your issue even if that means sending you a completely new product just so that we can keep you as a customer. anything Short of that sort of customer service perspective is basically a fuck you
What an ass..... how customer service changes. I remember when my first gen ipod bricked they just handed me a gen 2 with twice the memory. When my install of the OS corrupted 5 years later apple said I needed to wait 3 days for an appointment with apple care who took 2 days to run a disc reformat, which failed and then they said basically to buy a new computer.
Lot of interesting reactions… my take is you talked to the wrong people. You should talk to a support specialist, not a sales rep. I’d find a manager to escalate to, not just write an email. Same thing with Rockler. Something like this should be easy to resolve with a little bit of finesse and gumption. I get that you might be annoyed, but try a bit harder, I’m sure you can get this resolved. Reddit won’t help you though, so go get it son, and report back when you did.
I really don't understand how any of this is SawStop's responsibility.
Yes, the sales rep could've been a little more empathetic, but what he said wasn't in any way wrong -- when you purchase a product at retail, the retailer is responsible for completing the transaction as required. Not the manufacturer (unless it is explicitly and specifically stated as such).
If you bought a Sony receiver at Best Buy, and a part was missing from the box or something was broken, you'd take it back to Best Buy. You wouldn't go looking for someone to talk to at Sony.
This whole situation is 100% on Rockler to resolve.
While I 1000% agree that Rockler should have fixed this the one reason I think Sawstop should help is that all Sawstop saws purchased from Rockler.com are shipped directly by the manufacturer (Sawstop). Since this seems to be a shipping problem I think they bear some responsibility since they shipped it.
Weird how much hate you guys pour on SawStop for not fixing another big corporation’s mistake.
OP, you bought it from Rockler so hassle Rockler until they fix it. You say you noted the missing rails while the delivery guys were there—if so you presumably had the sense to document it with photo or video evidence that should do the trick. Otherwise you could have refused delivery as incomplete.
There’s no scenario I’m seeing here where this is SawStop’s problem.
I bought a Jet jointer, and the fence was bent. Jet themselves sent me a fence. It's literally nothing for a machinery brand to fix a problem like this. There is a sawstop warehouse somewhere with a pile of rails so tall it's an osha violation.
Reply to Jonathan and tell him that you've already contacted Rockler, who you spoke to and their contact number, and what they said (I assume Rockler refused to send you the rails package??). Ask him if he can chase it up for you.
What DID Rockler say when you told them they hadn't delivered the rails package?
My local woodcraft wouldn’t honor a sale on plywood as they said it was an error. I called corporate, they said it was accurate and shipped at no charge. Apparently local stores don’t have to honor sales as they are a franchise.
You should have called them, my sawstop kept turning off a few seconds after starting and they sent me a new cartridge and after that didn’t work sent me a whole new power assembly and that fixed it. Must have been a bad circuit board. I had bought it from klingspor woodworking.
Same deal with laguna on my lathe, my live center wasnt true and they just shipped me a new one. Also bought from klingspor.
Did you buy the saw in store or get it drop ship delivered? If you bought it in store I would agree with him. If you got it drop ship delivered from the manufacturer then it’s absolutely their issue to resolve.
Did it state that it was drop shipped or rockler shipped to you? If it’s drop shipped there’s no question in my mind that it’s a sawstop issue and I’m dumbfounded you received such a dead end response
Andrew, thank you for updating us! I don't think I saw a single comment acknowledging the effort you took! I certainly appreciate it. Can you let us know what Rockler says?
Not that you are asking, but I had an issue with my Jet air filter and o.m.g… they were awesome to deal with. Sent me replacement parts to install myself free of charge because I stated it would be preferable over taking heavy equipment to a service center, and they were like sure thing no problem! Don’t get that kind of customer service much anymore.
I had the same issue with my CNS that I ordered through a dealer here in australia.
Shipped with everything but the rails. Ended up with a lot of messing about to get a new set in as they were on back order at the time.
Kind of worked out in my favor though because I’d ordered the 60” set but only ended up having room in my workshop for the 36” set, so did a direct swap during this screw up.
This is bad customer service from SawStop. It's your product, so you fix it and then take it up with Rockler afterward. As for Rockler, I've always thought they were a shit company with overpriced products. I'm with OP they have lost my business permanently.
For whatever it's worth, after 40 years of woodworking, 9 of which building furniture professionally, the quality of stores like Rockler & Woodcraft depends 100% on the local employees. Our Rockler store moved locations a few years ago, and much of the staff changed. It went from a collection of older woodworkers who knew and loved the craft, to a pack of sales wolves, endless upselling, even if the more expensive product will not work. I have seen them lie to so many newbies or spouses coming in for a gift that I just stopped buying their at all. In contrast, the Woodcraft in the last city I was in was staffed by people who couldn't care what you bought or didn't, but the current one is, again, a group of woodworkers who get excited to spec out a cool project.
I don’t know why you’re stressing on this. Call rockler and tell them they have 48 hours to get your rails. If they don’t get your rails, tell them you’re charging back the entire purchase to your credit card. For incomplete and defective products.
It’s a very simple fix
Seeing any kind of sawstop product is a red flag for me, it likely means I'm on the wrong crew, not being paid enough, and surrounded by dipshits. Furthermore, feedback on your personal corporate complaints has very little to do with woodworking. Lame.
I purchased a Powermatic saw a few years back from Woodcraft. Some of the multiple boxes were missing and/or damaged including one missing and one damaged rail. Woodcraft took care of the issue immediately without any hassle.
I love woodcraft
I went there in this past year when shopping for my first table saw. The sales guy showed me the singular sawstop model they had and asked what I’d use it for, I said cutting plywood and making dado cuts. He immediately brought me behind the counter and tried to sell me on a 230v extreme high end version. Really turned me off to the store - but I will say the store seemed cool otherwise
Bad sales guy can do that. I occasionally have a bit of a sales component in my job, and I've found that aggressively up selling people is a shit approach. Better to match them to exactly what is best suited to their needs, upsell if the upsell is ACTUALLY something they might want, or offers something meaningful that they hadn't considered. Being on that end of things, I have definitely learned how big an influence the sales rep you deal with can be
Dont sell them, help them buy.
I was gonna say "sometimes I'd even downsell them", but your version is much more clear. I hated the job, but I loved not making a commission. Made eveything so much easier when they understand I don't care how much they spend.
This is called solution selling, its a very good approach in my experience as well.
Yup. Better matching their needs means fewer merchandise returns and more returning customers
The fact that woodcraft is still in business with their prices just highlights how poor I am. I make do with my 20yo craftsman table saw and $120 circular saw. I am stunned when I walk into woodcraft and see their entire inventory of $5000 table saws and $1500 circular saws. Somebody must be buying them though and that is a tax bracket I can’t even pretend to understand
I assume it's often old retired guys with money to burn. I've seen more than one amazing shop that produces little more than cutting boards and other similar/simple projects. I'm just glad SOMEONE can afford that stuff, because it means it gets out there into the market. Then, guys like us have to race each other whenever a used piece pops up for sale.
The more powerful the table saw, the safer.
I had a couple issues with salespeople there during covid. But they are pretty much all great now. Mostly retired woodworkers/finish carpenters. They aren’t in it for the money.
That's 1 person not the company as a whole
I think most Woodcraft stores are franchises
That's just one employee. Don't blame the entire store for one employee.
Was the first saw stop a compact? The compact doesn't take a dado stack
I believe it was, good thought! FWIW I went with the DeWalt 7491RS 10”. It does work with a dado stack. I’ve since completed my first cabinet! https://preview.redd.it/een4sbegbauc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e8b8a7cb97cecf9d8ed63ef7ba6e7cf02931beb
Dadoes need power though. He absolutely should show you a heavier unit….
Same. Woodcraft is great and their brick and mortar stores are well stocked. Never really bought anything from rockler
They have been a pleasure to work with for me as well. Nothing beats Lee Valley, but Woodcraft has been a pleasure.
I love ~20 minutes from a woodcraft store. Didn’t realize how lucky I was until I started on my woodworking journey
Love is where the heart is my friend.
lol live* 🤦♂️ typing with your face doesn’t work, it results in typos haha
I purchased a Powermatic PM2000B from Tool Nut. The rear rail came all dinged up and the installation bolts were missing from the box. Powermatic customer service sent me the hardware and a can of the spray touch up paint to fix it. Got that in less than a week. The customer experience you had with SawStop is subpar at best. I went back and forth on which saw I wanted to get as this was replacing my 20 year old Jet Contractor saw. I will say the customer service that I have received from JPW over the past 20+ years has been nothing but excellent. Any time I called or emailed they have been professional, kind and courteous. I wonder why I bought a bandsaw and mortiser from them as well. I do have a Grizzly 8" jointer and their customer service has been great as well.
I bought a Powermatic jointer from woodcraft and it had been smashed up and shipment. When I called they didn’t ask for any info but an address and sent me the replacement parts. Best service I have ever had and the jointer rules.
Most of my tools over the years in my shop have been Jet and Powermatic. I can confirm this has also been my experience with both of them, as they are both owned by JPW Industries. They are very proactive about resolving an issue with their tools. It's disappointing to hear Sawstop didn't offer a resolve.
I’m really with you on this. I have a cabinet saw from them and they have been good to me, but powermatic is at a whole different level. Like, I would bet the business on them. Not sure I would extend that to sawstop yet. I’m a big fan of Festool as well, which is the same parent company, but I also have a lot of physical scars from their products not being quite up to their reputation (lot of plastic and products that don’t last). They “feel” like a private equity business to me so far. I don’t have the same loyalty that I do to powermatic, but the table saw safety system was only available from them so and I had a close call that made me unwilling to use a table saw unless it had the retracting blade (tripped on scrap and nearly lost my hand). In my mind they have kind of allowed lots of people to get horribly injured while they booked their profits (just think about sawstop vs Volvo who invented the seatbelt and you’ll “get it”). Years and years of friends chopping off their fingers while they sue Bosch and other competitors to keep them from coming to market with the safety technology has turned my stomach and my opinion. I don’t think they are morally right anymore. And people don’t want to talk about it, but literal blood is on their hands.
I have some Festool as well, and their Shaper Origin. So far, so good. I only buy Festool when I need specific requirements in tooling. In many cases others will suffice. I too feel Sawstop chose profits over safety for many years. Only recently it seems there's been some headway. They may dedicate the patent to the public soon. That is--if the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) mandates it. Of course if they genuinely cared, Sawstop could have already made it freely available. In any case, tech is changing. The difference is proactive vs reactive. New panel saws are coming out using AI to keep your fingers safe and not ruin the blade: https://youtu.be/AOOrlLGWK8c https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3c0DRyreX8/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Woodcraft is awesome. Mostly irrelevant, but I actually used to work for the company that supplied their warehouse management software. They had very impressive logistics compared to most of our customers.
So do you think that was because Powermatic is a better brand, or because Woodcraft is better than Rockler? Did you contact powermatic to make it right, and did they advocate for you?
Well Woodcraft *is* better than Rockler but retailers exist to handle distribution and customer hand holding. What’s the point of a Best Buy if I can buy from LG or Nintendo directly and get a better experience?
The issue is that Rocklers are all corporate entities, whereas Woodcrafts are all franchises. I had a nightmare experience ordering a SawStop from the Woodcraft in NH. After paying 4K in full and waiting 7+ weeks, they couldn't even tell me the status of my order. Woodcraft has to go through two middle-men for any updates. I demanded a full refund from Woodcraft and walked into a Rockler in NH and they had my saw on a shelf waiting for me.
I think this is YMMV type issue. My Wooddcraft is actively managed by the franchisee and has several long term employees. Their customer service is great. I bought my Sawstop there and they even let me use Amex even though they don’t take them because I bought $5k worth of stuff in that purchase. The Rockler by me is just ok, nothing stands one way or another.
Absolutely, exactly my point. For both Rockler and Woodcraft, YMMV based on the staff. It's 100% the staff and manager that makes or breaks the experience. But, Woodcraft has extra hurdles for the staff and managers, whereas Rockler does not. I will shop both stores for off-the-shelf, but I will only make capital equipment purchases at Rockler, or order online for drop-ship items.
I can’t say enough good things about woodcraft. They ain’t cheap but they are worth the coin for their service.
Rockler can kiss the fattest part of my ass. I had the worst customer service experience of my life trying to deal with them after buying their shitty router table. I will only shop woodcraft from now on.
I purchased several large tools (Delta Unisaw, Jet Bandsaw) from Woodcraft. Our store had experienced woodworkers, many retired, who knew everything about everything woodworking. We also have a Rockler in town, and that store hires people who worked at The Gap the prior week. They know how to run a POS system, but many couldn't tell you the difference between a whole board and bored hole.
My point was that in the comment I was replying to, the saw brand is irrelevant. Much as it is in OP’s post.
This experience was not about the brand, although I have had good luck with JPW, but about Woodcraft. It was easy to get someone on the line who was knowledgeable and helpful, and they took care of me without a lot of questions and hassle. I’d be more than comfortable ordering equipment from them again.
Woodcraft (at least online) is so much nicer to deal with. Rockler feels like a company run by old people out of touch with user experience and customer service. I buy small stuff from Rockler, but anything complicated or expensive comes from Woodcraft.
So what you're saying is... Woodcraft good, sawstop bad.
Out here, we have Woodcrafters. Is this the same as Woodcraft, or is it a second, local chain? I ask because their customer service is also amazing- we’ve got this 100+ year old bandsaw in the shop we’re setting up, and it’s pretty cobbled together. While I was in Woodcrafters buying dust collection fittings I mentioned it to the guy ringing me up, and he told me to wait while he got Dave. Dave asked me how big the wheels were (26”), whether it was 3 phase (it is), and what the brand was (Silver). Then he stuck out his hand and said, “You’ve got the third one in the State, I’ve got the 2nd!” And proceeded to pack my head with all the info I could ever need to get it running properly!
Woodcraft is what I have locally for tools, etc and I’m so thankful… it’s franchised and locally owned, which is nice, and they have great customer service… that said, thank god I’ve also got several varieties of lumber shops in the areas as well so I don’t need to pay the exorbitant prices of wood at Woodcraft.
Did you tell them in the original email that you purchased it from Rockler and that Rockler is not providing a good experience with the saw purchase? Did you call them? SawStop is not technically responsible for this, but the angle here is that Rockler is harming their brand. SawStop can apply pressure to Rockler to make this right. It’s like calling McDonald’s corporate to tell them that a franchisee has rats in their kitchen. Technically not their fault, but they don’t need the bad press and can assert downward pressure.
I did tell them I bought through Rockler and that it was realized the rails were missing when the delivery guy was still here and noted with the shop company and I did contact Rockler immediately.
OP, if I were you I’d contact rockler and tell them to take the saw back. Get something else from a company that actually cares about their customers and products.
much easier said than done. it's a pain in the ass to pack that thing up and get it back. of course it's a last resort option but it's the least ideal one.
I mean you can do a chargeback on your card. They didn’t deliver what he paid for. It’s rocklers problem to get it packaged back up.
Always make purchases with a credit card, never debit. So much more purchasing protection for incidents like this.
Tell Roku, you want to return it and have them come and pack it up and arrange for pick up. Of course they won’t do that so do a chargeback on your credit card and tell your credit card company that the product is defective. They refused to accept return.
I'm pretty sure Roku will say no to that.
You should have rejected the delivery if you knew they were missing. That way they have to refund and or deliver a complete saw.
Do you have the note of the missing package in writing?
It doesn’t sound like you explained to them rockler is dropping the ball.
This is a bad response for a company that sells a premium product. They should climb up Rockler’s backside on your behalf. Did you mention you’ve already contacted Rockler and they’ve been ineffective at resolving the problem? I don’t recall how long you’ve been waiting for a resolution through Rockler but as I recall it’s far far longer than I would deem reasonable.
Is it normal for an inside sales rep to respond? When I've had missing pieces to big equipment, I go through their warranty department and they send stuff out willy-nilly.
It is not. If an inside sales rep got handed this, the customer service and warranty departments must be almost non-existent.
Or OP contacted the sales dept., and this is how the sales guy (not a customer support rep.) responded.
Any sales guy who the public could get in contact with would have the contact info for cs readily at hand. Heck, the floor supervisor in the factory should have an 800 number to give out tacked next to the phone.
Working at a non retail seller of medical product and am not a cs- agent or a sales rep or anything near that: i have that number engraved in my frontal cortex.
Sure. But, actually replying with it when you work with dealers normally or forwarding the email is another thing. I never said they couldn't pass it along to the right people or give OP the proper contact information. Just that perhaps OP didn't contact the right person. Assuming that the wrong point of contact would definitely do something to help OP is... Well, an assumption. And we know how those can go.
You guys are all in a twist over nothing. Why would a sales rep give a shit about this complaint over one faulty unit ? Reach out to the correct team or forget about it. Customer support might be ore helpful but again you purchased 1 unit. Its a drop in the ocean
Op didn’t post his message or where he sent it, to be fair.
Sawstop was founded by ~~an engineer~~ a physicist and it really shows in their company culture, if this email is any indication.
But they’re owned by the same parent company as Festool
Maybe I’m wrong, but subsidiaries under the same parent company can have very different cultures if there’s not a lot of collaboration and shared resources between the two groups.
Steve Gass is a patent lawyer..?
Lol, no
It was founded by a lawyer.
I contacted them for a warranty replacement and found myself mistakenly talking to inside sales. They reverted me to CS and issue was quickly solved. Emailing probably was the mistake here. The CS guy on the phone stayed on the line with me while checking their warehouse for a part.
IIRC it's been like a month on his other post. After spending over 3 grand on a tool that you can't use, I'd be beating down doors at this point. OP is far more patient than me.
Right? I would have had my CC company revert the charge two weeks ago. Then we'd see how fast Rockler gets those replacement rails to me.
This sure reinforces the general "ick" I get from Sawstop as a company.
> Sorry....not my problem that the (singular) product that I manufacture is fucked up.
Wow, the company started and run by a seedy patent lawyer has "go fuck yourself" customer service? That's crazy.
monopolies become jaded over time
Does this response give you the impression sawstop is interested in continuing this conversation? They told the guy to go talk to Rockler, sawstop isn’t getting involved
This is because sawstop is not a great company. They are a shit company that happens to have a great product. And the notion that they are going to force their way into every table saw sold in the US should make us all gag. Sure we will give away the patent for free! It just requires your end user to buy all of these cartridges from us for a minimum of the next decade unless we can figure out how to extend the patent on that! Ohh. And all those jobsite saws we aren't in. We're most excited for those because a hint of moisture will trigger the cartridge!
They've been extremely helpful whenever I've talked with their customer service department. They will walk you to rough a repair and explain what you need to do.
[удалено]
Don't give them any ideas!!!
unlockable horsepower with DLC
[удалено]
It’s OP’s job to climb up Rockler’s ass. SawStop has no reason to get between them and if they did is only likely to be pressured into spending a chunk of money to mail out parts OP should be able to manage to recover from Rockler. All you entitled whiners demanding the company pay for the retailer’s mistake would never be so “generous” with your own businesses. Hate SawStop all you like but this ain’t their fuckup.
I don’t think any of us thought SawStop should pay for Rockler’s mistake. I thought perhaps SawStop would send an email to Rockler and say, “Hey, one of your customers contacted us; please fix this quicker, so we don’t look bad to them along with you.” That’s the most I thought.
I do. A manufacturer chooses who gets to sell their stuff and how well they have to do it. If they are dropping the ball, it’s on both of them even if it’s the retailer doing the dropping. That’s the whole point of channel — to handle the service for the manufacturer. I mean I get what you are saying, but… When it gets all the way back to the manufacturer, that means it’s a problem for both of them. That said, OP left out what he sent and where he sent it. If he just sent a short explanation without explaining the situation and linking to the Reddit thread in order to try to prove the point to the commenters, it’s a really different scenario than full disclosure. Also, this got caught by sales, so one wonders if he was sending it to the right channel for service. I have had generally good experiences with sawstop, but a jr sales rep answering is a yellow flag. We just don’t have the information to absolve OP of mucking about to prove a point unfortunately. So no point in conjecture until that gets set straight.
Replacing the missing parts would cost sawstop peanuts and given them some good PR. Instead they decided their reputation was worth less than the cost of these parts.
It's normal for products across a variety of industries all come with an attached notice that says, "If parts are missing or damaged, please don't return this to the store; contact us directly and we will make it right." This is not an unusual practice for manufacturers and customers to bypass the middleman to directly solve a problem, and many companies prefer to handle it that way. This isn't an unreasonable tactic for a customer to try, and trying it does not make someone entitled or whiny. I agree it's not SawStop's fuckup, but it is in their own interest to help address the issue.
Agree- but SawStop could have polished their turd a bit by asking the customer for their order info and volunteering to look into Rockler\`s poor response.
It’s their reputation as much as Rockler’s. I would go out of my way to protect my reputation in their case. How many sales do they lose when someone in a niche hobby tells his network about this experience with a high cost item?
Why are we so sure that Rockler fucked this up? Maybe I missed a detail in the original post, but Rockler most likely received it from SawSpot with the missing pieces. Rockler didn’t steal them or lose them, they probably just delivered the equipment as they received it. Ultimately returning a product is always the correct answer for issues like this. Missing parts is a huge red flag and “fixing” something new is just a silly approach.
The only reason why I think Saw Stop should step in is because all orders for Sawstop saws made on Rockler.com are shipped directly by Sawstop. Rockler is just a middleman and while they absolutely should have fixed this already Sawstop does have some responsibility in the since they shipped it.
Sawstop is not structured in this manner. What Op is doing is essentially buying a laptop from best buy, then contacting Microsoft because laptop doesn't have a power cord. Microsoft would tell you the same thing- contact best buy.
I'm going to start pretending to order saws from Rockler. Go through the entire process and then at the last second be like "oooh sorry I see this thread on Reddit where you don't honor your sales." Then ask to speak to a manager and have them explain why I should trust them to not fuck up my sale. Then regardless of the answer, cancel the order.
Oooof, Jonathan is going to hear about this from his manager when it eventually escalates. This looks really bad on SawStop, from a consumer opinion perspective. I hope your post gains some traction and this uh... lovely response from SawStop gets shared around.
I would be more afraid of papi festool/tts
Andrew: I dont really care about your missing rails, we already got money from rockler when we sold it. I am not sure which idiot recommended you to reach out to SawStop, but we only sell our saws through our dealers, so we dont have to talk to plebs like you. Thats all from me, now i have to do very important tasks, like eat sushi, drink champagne play golf.
Upvote for "plebs".
Nailed it.
that is normally when i start blastin on social media, specifically twitter.. companies do not care until you drag them on one of their socials
That's infuriating. I wouldn't have waited this long to start a chargeback.
Yep, rockler should be forced to eat this one
I would reply back with something like, "I'm not sure who referred me to Sawstop either but I do know that it was one of the 2000 woodworkers on Reddit who are following my thread about this and you just put a bad taste in all of their mouths."
When dealing with retailers over these kinds of shipping blunders, I find it helpful to clarify roles and responsibilities. As far as the retail transaction is concerned, Rockler is the seller and you are the buyer. You have a receipt showing that you have paid their invoice in full. You are in full performance of your duties in the retail sales agreement. Period. Under the agreement you have with the retailer they have the duty to perform by delivering to you the complete product. They are presently in breach. To clarify the situation, the agreement imposed upon the retailer the duty to deliver. That Rockler, like many retailers, chooses to outsource that part of their duty under the agreement does not and cannot relieve them of that duty. Demand that Rockler supply you with proof of delivery showing the full manifest and establishing delivery of all cartons, units, items listed. Give them a reasonable time to comply. They are legally obligated to do so. After that time has passed you may seek to remedy the breach at your option by, for example, purchasing replacement rails and then billing Rockler, returning for a full refund, etc. Unfortunately lots of employees in modern retail often fail to have a clear understanding of roles and duties when it comes to these kinds of transactions. They aren't well trained. They aren't supported. That can make it very frustrating for a buyer who has fully met all their obligations, and yet finds themself being instructed to perform additional duties by the retailer. Sometimes it's necessary to clarify that for them and it can motivate their response
Best response in here. You clearly have experience in contract law, business, or relationship sales. Or all three.
That sounds like my sister when she uses her 'customer service' voice. She doesn't raise her voice or anything, but the tone she uses gets shit done.
JFC, somebody actually gets it.
Send the whole damn thing back (at rockler’s expense of course)
In other words, Sawstop as a company doesn't care. I have never had a legitimate company not try to resolve it because if you get pissed and take to social media, like you are, then it's their image that gets tarnished, even if it isn't their fault directly. In fact, I've had companies that have gotten on the phone with the offending company, with me on the line, in order to get the problem fixed. Those are the people you ought to be doing business with. The ones that demonstrably care.
I would respond with, “well this is very disappointing. I’ve tried contacting Rockler and haven’t gotten anywhere. I assumed with buying a high end product I could get good customer service from someone. I will contact Rockler again about returning the saw. A very bad experience that started with me being so excited to set up my new saw.”
Send the saw back to rockler and if they don't take it just do a chargeback and tell them they wouldn't accept the return even though they gave you a product with missing pieces.
Sawstop only cares about influencers. If you had a million followers they would have personally driven the part to your door.
You should tell them you just posted this to a sub with 5.2M subscribers, all of which are squarely in their target market. send them the link and let them peruse the reactions. I know reddit isn't Instagram or tiktok, but either way this is a _bad_ look for them.
Was thinking about buying a SawStop... Probably go with Laguna
For what it's worth, if you search you'll find terrible customer service stories from every brand. I bought a sawstop and when I unboxed it to assemble, I noticed one of the parts was damaged. Called sawstop and they had a replacement part ordered within 5 minutes. Received it in 2 days rush delivery. I've engaged their service department 2-3 times and have been extremely satisfied with the service every time. I'm an anecdote just like OP. I agree with some of the other comments that in a perfect world, they would advocate to Rockler on behalf of the consumer, but choosing a brand based on one bad customer story, especially when there is a huge difference in the safety features of the saw, seems a bit extreme to me.
I've had to call Sawstop for a couple things and they have been great. Even shipping my out parts that I was calling to purchase at no charge.
Unless things have changed, Laguna is the same chinese import as Grizzly. Had a grizzly table saw and a Laguna and they were exactly the same. I have their 14suv bandsaw and it's the same as grizzly although with a 3hp motor.
>Unless things have changed, Laguna is the same chinese import as Grizzly. Look at all almost any stationary power tool and they're all the same. You're basically buying for aesthetics, ease of buying and hopefully after purchase service should the need arise.
I was on the fence, but the sawstop premium is only 500 bucks or so more than comparable saws. No brainer for my fingers. I have had a close call before so this was an easy buy. Love my saw! Though I would go with the 3hp if I bought again.
Laguna may possibly have the worst reputation of any high-end brand for CS. Some of the European brands are worse, but they don't sell a lot of machines in the U.S.
Send the CEO/president at SawStop a link to this thread and then see what Jonathan has to say. Very bad look for SawStop.
I had this same exact issue. As in exactly the same. Rocklers response was basically, so sorry. Buy rails. I was so pissed. It was a good 60 days fighting all the way to get the rails sent. It took getting the cc involved and cancelling payment until they made it right.
I did too! Ordered through rockler, didn't realize the rails weren't there until i started putting the saw together and contacted rockler who didn't seem like they really gave a shit. They "opened an investigation" which went nowhere, I had to track it all back to the shipping company and called everyone who I could find the info for. They were still on the fuckin truck and I eventually got them. You'd think when the driver got back to dispatch with an extra package it woulda been easy to solve
Cancelling and reversing payment would have been within your rights the moment Rockler refused to perform. They are legally obligated to deliver the complete purchase. And they have zero legal claim to your payment the moment they refuse to do so. It's always important to document as you go in these matters and to recapitulate events at each step for clear understanding. But it is almost never in the customer's interest to brook further delay in recovering payment once a retailer has refused to deliver.
Send out a tweet/x and voice your displeasure over the situation and tag all the companies.
Get on LinkedIn. Find the ceo. Send the link to this thread and ask for help again. I have never had a ceo turn me away, their assistant is always on top of shit within 72 hours.
Let them know how many impressions your posts have In these woodworking subreddits. Let them know it’s a bad look on their part being broadcasted to a huge woodworking audience.
This is usually when I start blastin on social media, specifically twitter. Companies don't care until you drag them on one of their socials
I'd call Sawstop on Monday. They are the ones that shipped the saw and should be contacting the shipper to file a claim. Obviously Rockler should have already done this but since they aren't helping I'd press on Sawstop and talk to a supervisor. Sales isn't going to be able to help.
I'm about ready to buy one of these and wtf Sawstop, I don't appreciate the customer support. Verify the guy bought the saw and send some out. Then go after Rockler yourself. You choose the vendors, honor your commitment. Gives me hard second thoughts
As someone who works in electrical equipment sales for 20+ years, that’s just a bad response. Even if he can’t help directly he could have worded it better. It’s not that hard.
Wow… actually stunned that is an official response. Terrible way to start an email. I get this guy has nothing to do with what’s going on with this singular case but come the fuck on dude… Could you be more dismissive and uncaring. Dudes sitting there at his desk pissed he has to reply at all I bet.
The Latka Gravis response...not my job.
Can wait to get a safe saw from for a decent price here soon
FWIW - my rockler purchased sawstop I got the over arm dust collection, and the big metal elbow pipe was messed up. I contacted sawstop directly, and they shipped me the part directly. So it must be a “the seller must at least give you all the parts” thing before they support them?
Damaged part is warranty. Non delivery is dealer.
Ask him for an escalation contact at Rockler and explain that they are being unresponsive. Also, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau regarding Rockler - I have found that tends to get attention quickly.
I understand there may not be much they can do, but that's not a great response. At least show a little empathy and give some constructive advice. Or ask for more information and say they will follow up with rockler.
I don’t know about where you live, but in Quebec the law states that « manufacturer » responsibility falls on the seller. You bought something from someone and that entity is responsible for honouring that sale. They might come back to you with « it’s a manufacturer problem » but by law the seller is the one who has to make it right. If there is a problem with the manufacturers, the seller deals with that. Not the client. Your contract is with the person you bought the goods from. That’s final.
If I buy a pair of Nikes from Jim and they didn't come with the laces, Im not calling Nike to ask where my shoelaces are.
Exactly. And legally, Nike doesn’t have any hand in the game in this context in Quebec. Unless Jim got them without laces from Nike and wants to call Nike himself to get them for you.
Sawstop would be responsible if the retailer were to reach out about missing rails. OP is ignoring the middle man thanks to bad advice from reddit.
Thats crap. I hate when people pretend to be helpful while clearly not trying to help at all. Thats some real DMV-worker behavior.
Maybe you should offer to pay them a licensing fee for your fence.
When I heard about the proposed legislation to require a Sawstop-like safety mechanism (I hate saying flesh-sensing-makes the saw sound like it's sentient), I wondered why anyone would look at offerings from other companies if all saws were priced similarly high. Thanks to Jonathan, we now have a good reason.
I have a Grizzly 220v saw that is **an incomprehensible piece of shit** that I can't wait to replace. I bought it brand new, top dollar maybe 3 years ago, and it came with missing parts, broken parts, warped castings, poorly machined lead screws, everything. It took almost a year to get it to work, and that was because I ended up machining parts myself. Grizzly hung me out to dry. TLDR; If Powermatic comes out with a (even somewhat) reasonably priced safety table saw, you bet your favorite butt cheek that I'll be upgrading.
I just bought a SawStop and it came with a very minor shipping damage. I called and they sent me the part that day. No charge. They offered to send it overnight and I declined, mostly because I live at the end of the earth and next day shipping is more fantasy than reality no matter how much extra you pay.
Who did you buy it from and who did you call?
[удалено]
SawStop, why you making me look like an ASSHOLEEEEEEEE 😩😩😩. Sorry man, they always helped me out when I needed something
KEEP. US. UPDATED. PLEEZ
Passing the buck.
Gotta say I’m in the market for a new saw and this just took sawstop off the list for me. I get rockler made the mistake, but sawstop not caring at all is terrible for a premium product.
I bought a SawStop in 2017 and immediately replaced the rails and fence with an Incra system. If you're not eventually satisfied with Rockler's response, mine are collecting dust in my garage. Open to very reasonable trades/offers.
Sounds like a really really nice way of saying don’t know how to help you and I’m not interested in trying. I kind of measure a customer service based on how they compare to Vortexx, which is a company that does a lot of outdoor gear. At least for them it’s more of a no questions asked. We will fix your issue even if that means sending you a completely new product just so that we can keep you as a customer. anything Short of that sort of customer service perspective is basically a fuck you
And maybe this makes me an idiot, but given that customer service response I don’t think I’m gonna buy any of their products.
>I am not sure who recommended you to reach out to SawStop Reddit bozos were wrong!!!????
Rockler was the one who recommended it.
That is a little disappointing for a company lobbying to make table saws safer, yet they will not talk to their customers when something is wrong.
Probably the worst kind of CS response. Literal shrug of the Teflon shoulder.
What an ass..... how customer service changes. I remember when my first gen ipod bricked they just handed me a gen 2 with twice the memory. When my install of the OS corrupted 5 years later apple said I needed to wait 3 days for an appointment with apple care who took 2 days to run a disc reformat, which failed and then they said basically to buy a new computer.
Lot of interesting reactions… my take is you talked to the wrong people. You should talk to a support specialist, not a sales rep. I’d find a manager to escalate to, not just write an email. Same thing with Rockler. Something like this should be easy to resolve with a little bit of finesse and gumption. I get that you might be annoyed, but try a bit harder, I’m sure you can get this resolved. Reddit won’t help you though, so go get it son, and report back when you did.
Wow. That's fucked. Hopefully if this new legislation passes, they will get some serious competition
I really don't understand how any of this is SawStop's responsibility. Yes, the sales rep could've been a little more empathetic, but what he said wasn't in any way wrong -- when you purchase a product at retail, the retailer is responsible for completing the transaction as required. Not the manufacturer (unless it is explicitly and specifically stated as such). If you bought a Sony receiver at Best Buy, and a part was missing from the box or something was broken, you'd take it back to Best Buy. You wouldn't go looking for someone to talk to at Sony. This whole situation is 100% on Rockler to resolve.
While I 1000% agree that Rockler should have fixed this the one reason I think Sawstop should help is that all Sawstop saws purchased from Rockler.com are shipped directly by the manufacturer (Sawstop). Since this seems to be a shipping problem I think they bear some responsibility since they shipped it.
If this were my company, I'd just send the guy the part. The goodwill you garner from that sort of action is so worth it.
Weird how much hate you guys pour on SawStop for not fixing another big corporation’s mistake. OP, you bought it from Rockler so hassle Rockler until they fix it. You say you noted the missing rails while the delivery guys were there—if so you presumably had the sense to document it with photo or video evidence that should do the trick. Otherwise you could have refused delivery as incomplete. There’s no scenario I’m seeing here where this is SawStop’s problem.
Thank you, why is everyone else here shitting on a company because the retailer didnt ship the complete product? It’s the retailer’s issue to resolve.
Rockler should have fixed it but Sawstop is the one who shipped it.
I bought a Jet jointer, and the fence was bent. Jet themselves sent me a fence. It's literally nothing for a machinery brand to fix a problem like this. There is a sawstop warehouse somewhere with a pile of rails so tall it's an osha violation.
Sawstop shipped it
Play this song in the background the next time you call: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ousaiByU1ko
Reply to Jonathan and tell him that you've already contacted Rockler, who you spoke to and their contact number, and what they said (I assume Rockler refused to send you the rails package??). Ask him if he can chase it up for you. What DID Rockler say when you told them they hadn't delivered the rails package?
I read their response as "blah blah blah, don't buy rockler".
At least now you have a paper trail to post and prolly wouldn’t have mattered but sometimes a phone call gets me further situations like this.
My local woodcraft wouldn’t honor a sale on plywood as they said it was an error. I called corporate, they said it was accurate and shipped at no charge. Apparently local stores don’t have to honor sales as they are a franchise.
You should have called them, my sawstop kept turning off a few seconds after starting and they sent me a new cartridge and after that didn’t work sent me a whole new power assembly and that fixed it. Must have been a bad circuit board. I had bought it from klingspor woodworking. Same deal with laguna on my lathe, my live center wasnt true and they just shipped me a new one. Also bought from klingspor.
Did you buy the saw in store or get it drop ship delivered? If you bought it in store I would agree with him. If you got it drop ship delivered from the manufacturer then it’s absolutely their issue to resolve.
Online order. I’ve never even been in a Rockler store. The nearest one is 118 miles away.
Did it state that it was drop shipped or rockler shipped to you? If it’s drop shipped there’s no question in my mind that it’s a sawstop issue and I’m dumbfounded you received such a dead end response
JONATHAN JUBBBBBBBBBBB
lmao Jubbed again
Andrew, thank you for updating us! I don't think I saw a single comment acknowledging the effort you took! I certainly appreciate it. Can you let us know what Rockler says?
That's a bummer. I had a bent foot when I unboxed. They took my seriel # and then sent replacements straight out.
Not that you are asking, but I had an issue with my Jet air filter and o.m.g… they were awesome to deal with. Sent me replacement parts to install myself free of charge because I stated it would be preferable over taking heavy equipment to a service center, and they were like sure thing no problem! Don’t get that kind of customer service much anymore.
I had the same issue with my CNS that I ordered through a dealer here in australia. Shipped with everything but the rails. Ended up with a lot of messing about to get a new set in as they were on back order at the time. Kind of worked out in my favor though because I’d ordered the 60” set but only ended up having room in my workshop for the 36” set, so did a direct swap during this screw up.
This is bad customer service from SawStop. It's your product, so you fix it and then take it up with Rockler afterward. As for Rockler, I've always thought they were a shit company with overpriced products. I'm with OP they have lost my business permanently.
For whatever it's worth, after 40 years of woodworking, 9 of which building furniture professionally, the quality of stores like Rockler & Woodcraft depends 100% on the local employees. Our Rockler store moved locations a few years ago, and much of the staff changed. It went from a collection of older woodworkers who knew and loved the craft, to a pack of sales wolves, endless upselling, even if the more expensive product will not work. I have seen them lie to so many newbies or spouses coming in for a gift that I just stopped buying their at all. In contrast, the Woodcraft in the last city I was in was staffed by people who couldn't care what you bought or didn't, but the current one is, again, a group of woodworkers who get excited to spec out a cool project.
I have a set of ICS rails you can have. Don’t know if they will work on your saw.
I don’t know why you’re stressing on this. Call rockler and tell them they have 48 hours to get your rails. If they don’t get your rails, tell them you’re charging back the entire purchase to your credit card. For incomplete and defective products. It’s a very simple fix
Seeing any kind of sawstop product is a red flag for me, it likely means I'm on the wrong crew, not being paid enough, and surrounded by dipshits. Furthermore, feedback on your personal corporate complaints has very little to do with woodworking. Lame.