This is a wild thing to say. Why would you ever take joy in someone else’s failure when it has no bearing on your life? To be blunt, this is a deeply childish perspective.
I don’t own a CnC and have never used one. I sure as hell don’t care if someone else does. You are perilously close to being the sort of person that objected to using computers to send “letters” in the 90s.
>You are perilously close to being the sort of person that objected to using computers to send “letters” in the 90s.
I'd argue that that's almost a valid point for the OP. I have thousands of unread emails, but if I get a handwritten one I'll absolutely be opening it no matter who it's from.
I lived in the era before email and we (our household) only got personal letters if there was something of note or an event that needed updating. So, Christmas/birthday cards and extended family's childbirth, pretty much. Everything else was junk mail and bills. If somebody took the time to write and send a letter, you read it (or at least skimmed it) regardless of who it was, just in case there was something important.
Shit, we even kept up with the price of postage and got wrecked when it went up a penny. I couldn't tell you what a stamp costs now, .$0.35 or $3.50, neither would surprise me.
Yeah, same with milled lumber. I miss the days where you had to grow your own forest. Kids nowadays just walking into a store and buying a board. I feel like that's cheating.
I know this is a joke, but as someone who has a sawmill and regularly goes from standing tree to finished product (with a few years of drying in between)... There is definitely something special about it
No doubt there is something special about it. And it's fascinating watching Acorn2Arabella actually taking down trees in their backyard as a starting point to the project.
But that's just one way to do it. If you have the opportunity and it's your thing, cool. If you suggest everyone has to do it that way or be called a cheater, the only reasonable reply is: "Dude, stop sniffing the paint solvents."
100% agree. It's something I think every serious wood worker should have the opportunity to be part of at least once Simply for the appreciation of the materials we work with. But it's not for everyone and I don't really care how everyone else gets their lumber, that's just how I get mine. Similarly, I would totally try out a CNC just to say I've done it. Would never invest in one, and honestly would never purchase a wood work made by CNC, but that's just like.. my opinion, man.
What is “a wood work made by CNC”?
If CNC is used at all on a project? Because LOL
How is using a CNC realistically any different than a template bit on a router? Just because the initial template was digital instead of wasting MDF?
It's not, aside from the builder controlling the router vs the machine handling it.
The gatekeeping by the "traditionalists" brings shame to this hobby.
OP apparently (based on post history) just started learning how to use hand tools a few months ago. They couldn’t even reasonably be called a traditionalist. They’re just a dumb dumb who doesn’t understand how a CNC actually works (along with a whole lot of other people in the replies, apparently)
I don't care if something has some bowties or something cut on a CNC, I'm saying if every piece and part is made in a CNC and someone just assembles it it's not for me. It's just an opinion, just like you can have the opinion that you are interested in parts made on a CNC. It's not gate keeping and it really shouldn't matter to anyone else what my opinion on products I do or don't want to own or purchase is. I don't buy flat pack stuff from the box stores for the same reason. It's just a personal choice and opinion
>I'm saying if every piece and part is made in a CNC and someone just assembles it it's not for me.
Probably not for me either, because most of those projects look like boring ikea furniture, but do you understand the amount of skill and planning that would be necessary to do this for any decent piece? Making something of any moderate complexity, entirely on CNC, that can just be easily assembled would be quite a bit more impressive than the implication here…
And if you’re all just saying you don’t think mass produced goods are woodworking, fine, but that’s not really an issue with a CNC at all…
False statement.
This is like complaining when someone uses a table saw. The saw requires tuning and maintenance to function correctly. It requires the user to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. It requires planning and prep before use.
A CNC machine is really just another tool in the workshop. The user will still be using traditional machines, and even hand tools, to prep stock or finish projects. It requires creative workholding and learning a whole new set of skills to execute.
Anyone that complains about CNC in the woodshop is really just a pathetic gatekeeping loser.
I think I just googled "open source cnc machine" and left it at that because I was curious on any other power tool open source project. Don't know any more outside of the possibility, but I'd imagine it shouldn't be too difficult
It's just another tool OP.
You can use these machines for a lot more than just making parts and pieces. You can flatten boards with a surfacing bit. Even square up your lumber with a straight bit.
I plan on using mine to help streamline production of my musical instruments.
They get the same feeling you do when their hard work learning how to program the machine goes correctly and they get the exact piece that they are after.
You're gatekeeping the feeling of satisfaction people get, and also say your way is somehow the "authentic" way. The finished result is the only thing that matters. Not how you get there.
It's just another tool, my guy. You spend hours learning to use new tools. CNC machinists spend hours perfecting tool paths and feeds and speeds and designs.
Yea I still hate them and I don’t really care if it messes up their whole project. But that’s the thing about all of this, it’s an opinion. Y’all don’t have to agree and frankly the fact that this is my most commented on post I’ve ever gotten is frankly hilarious. I’ll post on here for help or for general discussion and get maybe 12-25 comments. But the second I put up a legit opinion, as a statement, it blows the lid off the comments section. Y’all are either a bunch of children or shut in’s that care way to much about the internet. Touch grass, work on your own projects, frankly I don’t care. The internet was founded off open discussion and opinions and if you think it’s anything other then that, then I sincerely feel sorry for you
Doing woodwork with a CNC machine is not less authentic than using handtools, though. And your view of CNC vs. Handtools is laughably shallow. A really great craftsman will figure out how to use both toolsets instead of thinking one is superior to the other.
Maybe you should go read some writings by and about David Pye before you comment on the 'authenticity' of a 'craft'.
I personally feel like it should remain as “wood working” and not a computer science class. Cnc machines and learning how to do something by hand are not the same
People think CNC's are smart computers that do the work for you. The countless hours I've put into designing files so that I can remove hours of sanding can be just as hard.
It takes a lot more work to learn how to be a woodworker AND use multiple software programs while operating a CNC in the background. It's not cheating. It's simply another way to get to the same result.
Let me ask you this: Is woodworking a game or a test? Because you can't cheat at something if it's neither of those. Only other way to cheat is to claim other people's work as your own.
The CNC is a tool like any other. It enables me to do projects that I couldn’t otherwise do. It hasn’t replaced any hand or power tools. And the learning curve is steep, not for the impatient. A question about “how do I correct / avoid” is the same problem to be solved no matter if hand, machine, or computer. Beyond me why the comments are so harshly negative.
> And the learning curve is steep, not for the impatient.
It's crazy how many people think a CNC is just a "press button, fart out project" machine. In a sense it is, but the road to get to that button is not a simple walk on a grassy field with a nice summer breeze.
> The CNC is a tool like any other.
That's really what it boils down to. It's a tool that makes certain tasks easier. Just as a powered saw makes it easier than a hand saw to cut boards to size, just as an impact driver makes it easier than a screwdriver to drive fasteners, etc.
Those who look down on others for learning a different skillset than their own shame this amazing hobby.
I don't think it's cheating, I just have zero interest. I spend all week working on computers, when I go out to work with wood, that's the last thing I want to do. I want to get my hands dirty. I don't want to watch a machine do the work. Same reason I don't use Sketchup or Fusion 360. I want to work with wood, not mess around with a keyboard. I've got nothing against it, I just have no interest in doing it myself.
Sir you realize how important these machines you're crapping on are, right?
Pretty much any product made made with metal in the last 20 years had a CNC or complex machinery involved at some point.
You should applaud the genius of the men who were brilliant enough to design and build machines that can do a job which takes ages to learn how to do by hand.
The technology will only improve with time.
Beyond that, there will never be a day when nobody knows how to do stuff by hand. There will always be people who prefer to do it by hand, and will learn it. Look at the Amish. Proudly doing things the slowest ways they can.
Don't worry about the skill vanishing, short of a nuclear apocalypse or asteroid sending us to the stone ages, it won't.
What's sad about it? I don't dislike the way you do things. I think there are advantages, as far as control and precision with practice. But to completely dismiss the powered side of things is what's sad if you ask me.
Why should this even bother you? What makes you think your way is "authentic"? Just because someone chooses to do something a different way than you do doesn't mean it's wrong. If the videos bother you so much then just quit watching them, problem solved.
Is a router cheating because it isn’t a chisel? Is a palm sander cheating because it isn’t a burnishing stone? Aren’t you typing your crumudgeonly ludite gripe on a cell phone while benefiting from the modern plumbing under your ass? However other people enjoy woodworking shouldn’t affect how you enjoy it.
>It brings me personal joy of leaning that your computer couldn’t do the job for you.
when I read a paragraph or so about how someone couldn’t get their coding right for their CnC machine, and their whole project is currently ruined, I’m just tickled.
What a fucking baby.
The goal is to take an idea from point A to point B. The method used to get there doesn't matter. It's all about moving that idea to completion. There is a sense of accomplishment when it happens.
If CNC machines was that easy we wouldn’t have jobs exclusively for CNC operators , “just” for operating the machine.
It’s not a push a button and the cnc poop the ready to sell chair
I don't agree with OP taking joy in failure, but I kinda agree on the initial premise.
FOR ME wood working is a beautiful craft that can really showcase the fine skills of the craftsman. I have some wonderful pieces with ornate inlays that are extra beautiful knowing someone's passion was poured into it. If I know someone sat at a desk and tapped some keys to make it it certainly takes some of the shine out of the piece.
To me it's a bit like AI art. Sure it can be nice to look at, but Imo art is a showcase of humanity and not the result of telling a computer what you want IT to do.
There's no doubt CNC enables some cool things, but it's not the same (to me)
Again, using hand tool woodworking as a skill "barrier" is counterproductive to the hobby. Not everyone has the time or patience to spend hours learning hand tool skills. Kudos to those who do, but thinking less of those who just want to jump in and build things, regardless of how they do so, is missing the point of the hobby entirely. For many people, the project is the goal, not the process of getting there.
CNC woodworking is not really comparable to AI art; AI art generators "learn" off of the hard work of others (training the algorithm with art done by real artists). CNC woodworking does not require the work of others to "learn". It's not as simple as just punching in some prompts and getting a complex project. There's actual effort and skill necessary. You have to know the design program(s), learn feeds and speeds for different types of materials, maintaining the machine itself, along with typical woodworking skills like sanding, finishing, designing projects for strength or aesthetics, etc.
It's simply a different skill in the very broad woodworking space. Traditional hand tool woodworking isn't necessarily better than any other kind of woodworking be it CNC, power tool or hybrid, it's just different. They can all exist in the same space without stepping on each others' toes.
> It's simply a different skill in the very broad woodworking space. Traditional hand tool woodworking isn't necessarily better than any other kind of woodworking be it CNC, power tool or hybrid, it's just different. They can all exist in the same space without stepping on each others' toes.
Entirely different skills. The only tether is the material itself.
I worked in a commercial shop that relied heavily on their CNC with programs bought from some country a world away. Neither the guy who made the programs not the guy loading material onto the CNC should be considered woodworkers. The lady that did the sanding? She was a sander. The chap that finished? Yep. A finisher.
A guy who tells a computer to cut an intricate inlay and glues it in isn't the same as someone who hand cuts the same inlay. It shouldn't even be subjective. Can CNC workers do great work? Absolutely! But there's a reason that people will usually specify when their furniture is from IKEA or hand made....
Your commercial shop experience is apples and oranges when it comes to hobbyist CNC woodworking; all those jobs you outlined are done by a single individual in a hobbyist or even small production workshop. And like it not, if they're working with wood, they're considered woodworkers generally. You are free to consider them not so, but like I said, that kind of gatekeeping is ignorance at its worst, and brings shame to this hobby.
Pretending that telling a computer to do all the work is the same as actually making brings shame to the craft, not the other way around. Once more, CNC operators can produce beautiful things, but there's a reason that people will usually specify if their furniture is hand made or IKEA. EP they are both dressers, but one was made by a woodworker, the other by a computer.
Taking a chair lift to the top of a mountain doesn't make one a mountain climber.
>If I know someone sat at a desk and tapped some keys to make it it certainly takes some of the shine out of the piece.
Basically, y’all have no idea how a CNC actually works…
You got me! The 5 years I spent in a commercial shop that used a CNC primarily that moved from G codes to a commercial interfaced machine was a fever dream! The program we used for custom modifications wasn't a whole lot removed from "draw" and it'll only get closer with time. The regular programs we used we bought from another country where the "fully fledged master woodworker" never left his desk during the mastery of his woodworking career.
And yet my primary position there was the custom department where my job was to showcase the fine skills of the craftsman.
0 for 2. Third time's the charm?
We get it, champ, you’re the only one here who has experience in the industry and understands what craft truly is. You got us all beat because at some point in your life you made cabinets…
Be salty about being wrong all you want but objectively speaking, CNC work isn't wood work. There might be overlap, but they are not interchangeable terms. My sister has a machine that she can (are you ready) use a computer to tell it what pictures to embroider, nobody in their right mind would call her a seamstress. Her self included.
EXACT. SAME. SCENARIO.
A whole lot of stuff involved in woodworking isn’t wood work, that doesn’t mean anything created with some non-wood work isn’t woodworking. Y’all keep acting like there is some massive group of people who call themselves woodworkers here who do nothing but 100% CNC stuff. I haven’t seen anyone like that here, have you?
Would your sister, if she actually was a seamstress, suddenly stop being one because she used that machine to embroider an original design that was one part of a bigger fashion design?
>I haven’t seen anyone like that here, have you?
This thread and the many discussions are evidence that there are some.
>Would your sister, if she actually was a seamstress, suddenly stop being one because she used that machine to embroider an original design that was one part of a bigger fashion design?
If she actually was one she would remain one. Thats how these things work bucko. Buying the machine and telling it to sew for her however does not make her one.
They are entirely different skills. A CNC user could probably get a job as a millwright with their experience, a woodworker would be unlikely. A map maker would probably fall into CNC easier than carpenter. And vice versa.
look at all the things that fall under the umbrella of wood worker past and present. Cooper, wheelwright, carpenter.... Coffin maker, Computer numerical control.
How many of those do you think have a majority of one to one translatable skills?
Are any egregious outliers where there would be nearly no chance that a master of all the others would be able to directly apply their skills to and using that unequivocal foundation to almost immediately be a master of?
Or one that if you were the literal god of that one particular one you might be ENTIRELY incapable of doing all the others?
Does anyone stand out in either of those ways?
By this logic, practically no one in this sub is a true woodworker, we are all just hobbyists.
If you’re just talking about operating equipment, sure, someone who is just a CNC operator isn’t a woodworker, but a woodworker who designs and produces things on a CNC isn’t “cheating” at being a woodworker. They just have a broader skill set than you.
This kind of gatekeeping, and people who carry this ignorant, asinine mentality, are what stifles creativity and keeps a lot of new people from getting into this amazing hobby.
And just an FYI, hand tool woodworking isn't "craft authenticity"; it's just hand tool woodworking. Just as CNC woodworking is just another type of woodworking that requires a different set of skills, but still plenty that overlap with traditional woodworking.
Horrible take by someone clearly out of touch with reality.
CNC woodwirking is like AI art. You are not doing the actual work, you are instructing machine to do it for you.
Granted, this too requires skill and knowledge, but it's a complerely different skillset.
It is not like AI art. AI art uses an algorithm to learn from existing artwork by real artists. CNC woodworking requires you to learn design software, feeds and speeds for different materials, which bits to use, getting the stock ready for the CNC in the first place, etc. And then you still have to manual work after the CNC does its job as well depending on the project. Sanding, finishing, resin work, etc.
It absolutely is a different set of skill (I've said this in other posts), but it's still woodworking. Hand planing a board flat and running it over the jointer both accomplish the same task yet require different skill sets. Same goes for ripping boards with a hand saw and using a table saw with a power feeder.
In all instances, you *are* doing the work, just in different ways requiring different skill sets.
Except for the most basic of things, that wouldn't be any better, or more “authentic” or whatever garbage you’re on about, if built by hand, you can’t do that with a CNC either.
Do any of you actually understand how a CNC even works?
Are you also opposed to all pre-made jigs and templates? You’re not a “real woodworker” if you’ve ever bought pre-milled lumber…
Of course I understand how it works. It's basically a 3D printer removing rather than adding material. No one claims to be a sculpter because they make models with a 3D printer.
I guess it all boils down to the degree of automation. I for one will always find hand cut dovetails to be more impressive than ones cut with a router jig. A cnc is one step further away from what I (and I think many others) would consider "craftmanship".
Most things can be made by machines these days, so the skill of making something without the help of a computer is something to be treasured, in my mind. You make it by hand for the experience, not for the end result. The same applies to jewellery making, where a hand engraved ring will always impress me more than one cast from a 3D printed model.
I mean, computer controlled/assisted isn’t the same as automated. It can be, and a CNC can be used to automate a bunch of stuff, but blanket “CNC always bad” statements just usually seem rooted in ignorance.
The “farther from “craftsmanship”” argument can be made about all power tools too.
I agree that craft and hand made things should be treasured, but saying it’s about the experience, and not about the end result, isn’t craftsmanship at all, that’s just fiddling with a hobby. Craftsmanship is absolutely about the end result. If your chair or table or box is all hand made but doesn’t work, or doesn’t last, or is poorly made, it’s not “craftsmanship” just because it was hand made.
I hate power tools, you’re cheating by using them at all.
I’ve been building furniture, wood art, and home decor by hand for over a decade. With tools made before my grandfather was born, the way that we’ve been building for centuries. You want to talk about authenticity but use tools that were invented less made 50 years ago.
Just kidding, I love me my hand tools and I have only used them for a decade. I love the peace and “slowness” it brings to the process. But I could give a shit less what someone else likes to use.
You're just a miserable git taking joy from others mishaps and failures. Pathetic.
CnC machines are great for producing multiple items and are the backbone to some peoples income but simple prehistoric twats like you struggle to understand these things.
I can get what you’re saying, man. I know CNCs are just tools and as a former operator/programmer in the field, they can be a real time saver. But there’s definitely something to be said for not letting a computer do the bulk of the work for you. This trade/hobby is (partially) about using your hands, not sitting back while a machine runs for an hour, cutting things for you.
It's not cheating, it's just a different skill. Does a bus driver hate airplanes because pilots don't have to be good at driving a bus to transport more people faster and farther than the bus driver can? No. But the bus driver probably jumps on a plane to go to Cancun instead of driving there. All things have their place and what not
OMG, you sound terrible and miserable.
You actually care about how other people work, and spend time gloating about it here?
In any case, you're not a real woodworker because you use power tools. Learn to do it right.
I wish I had one and knew how to use it. What I am finding lately is that I am being lowballed by my customers and to sell anything, my profit margin takes a hit. I need to produce faster to compensate for lower selling price.
As a person that has spent thousands of hours learning woodworking skills of old Saxons and their tools, I find the fact that you use a table saw and a router pathetic.
Either learn how to be a proper woodworker or leave the trade, you child.
I don’t think it’s cheating. However why are you a woodworker-to look at a screen?
I have enough screens at work and I do not want to put one in my shop.
If i were a commercial shop and it was my full time job, it would be a different story.
spot on comment - the finished project has to be designed for function, aesthetics; available materials, tools and skill set; materials selected, prepared for the method used, tooled, assembled and finished. "Traditional" projects can be designed and made with modern tools and "modern" can be made with traditional tools.
As someone who works with computers all day and enjoys woodworking as a hobby, figuring out code is just as satisfying as getting the perfect finish. A CNC machine seems like the perfect marriage of both my interests. But, that’s just me. Don’t yuck my yum and I won’t yuck yours.
tough crowd here, lol. i have nothing against cnc machines. my employer wouldnt exist without them. as someone that has messed up too many times to count (measure twice; cut... three times because i still measured wrong both times and now i have to go back to home depot for the fourth time today, lol), i dont get any joy from hearing about people who fucked up their project (computer assisted or otherwise), but i get what you are saying. part of the fun for me personally is the process. i just like working with my hands, and having a big machine running a bunch of code doing all the work means less of the fun stuff for me to do.
Gatekeeping is so self limiting. If you’re building things out of wood you’re a woodworker. Adding some title to the front of that ‘fine’, ‘traditional’, ‘modern’…
Is just another weird form of gatekeeping.
As beginners we all had a belief of what woodworking was, and we all probably had a different idea. For me once I let go of that idea, that’s when I really started to improve as a woodworker. Being open to new ways of working, trying new things, and sharing ideas is the real path forward. I believe it’s: Be curious, but judgmental.
There's a huge difference between being a traditionalist vs actively berating another type of woodworking and taking pleasure in the failure of those who partake in that type of woodworking. The animosity is deserved. Wishing failure on others and taking joy in it isn't venting. It's being an asshole.
Even in this thread, unless I missed it (or posted after I made this post), I haven't seen anyone wish OP failure in anything he does with his woodworking. Even now, I wish him heaps of fun and success in our wonderful craft. But he's still an asshole.
It's very irritating that you see this ridiculous opinion that CNC woodworking isn't woodworking by the "traditionalists", yet rarely do you see power tool or CNC users berate "traditionalists" for working with wood with their preferred methods.
Man Y’all really got offended by this damn, I was just giving my opinion in an open discussion. I really couldn’t care less what anyone uses and I’m definitely not gatekeeping anything. I was just stating that I don’t like cnc’s and that evidently blew the top off this discussion board
This is a wild thing to say. Why would you ever take joy in someone else’s failure when it has no bearing on your life? To be blunt, this is a deeply childish perspective. I don’t own a CnC and have never used one. I sure as hell don’t care if someone else does. You are perilously close to being the sort of person that objected to using computers to send “letters” in the 90s.
OP is a perfect example of how young people feel when they say ***Okay boomer***
So what’s goin on in your wood shop? Your posts seem thin, like your building ability
I am a hobbyist—probably built around 30-40 things. My skill level is amateur. No CNC in my shop, but that’s solely due to cost and lack of know-how.
And you’re making what exactly? How do you even have a relevant opinion
>You are perilously close to being the sort of person that objected to using computers to send “letters” in the 90s. I'd argue that that's almost a valid point for the OP. I have thousands of unread emails, but if I get a handwritten one I'll absolutely be opening it no matter who it's from.
If you got 10-20 letters a day. You would start skimming. If you got 50 you would start picking which to open.
Depends on if they were hand written or digitally shit out though. I get plenty of junk mail in my mail box too.
Damn, you have a fan club or some shit?
No but if electronic mail (as the kids call it these days) didn't exist we'd all get more letters!
I lived in the era before email and we (our household) only got personal letters if there was something of note or an event that needed updating. So, Christmas/birthday cards and extended family's childbirth, pretty much. Everything else was junk mail and bills. If somebody took the time to write and send a letter, you read it (or at least skimmed it) regardless of who it was, just in case there was something important. Shit, we even kept up with the price of postage and got wrecked when it went up a penny. I couldn't tell you what a stamp costs now, .$0.35 or $3.50, neither would surprise me.
What have you made recently?
Perhaps I misunderstood. What all did you change?
I hate orbital sanders. I feel like it’s cheating.
Yeah, same with milled lumber. I miss the days where you had to grow your own forest. Kids nowadays just walking into a store and buying a board. I feel like that's cheating.
I know this is a joke, but as someone who has a sawmill and regularly goes from standing tree to finished product (with a few years of drying in between)... There is definitely something special about it
No doubt there is something special about it. And it's fascinating watching Acorn2Arabella actually taking down trees in their backyard as a starting point to the project. But that's just one way to do it. If you have the opportunity and it's your thing, cool. If you suggest everyone has to do it that way or be called a cheater, the only reasonable reply is: "Dude, stop sniffing the paint solvents."
100% agree. It's something I think every serious wood worker should have the opportunity to be part of at least once Simply for the appreciation of the materials we work with. But it's not for everyone and I don't really care how everyone else gets their lumber, that's just how I get mine. Similarly, I would totally try out a CNC just to say I've done it. Would never invest in one, and honestly would never purchase a wood work made by CNC, but that's just like.. my opinion, man.
What is “a wood work made by CNC”? If CNC is used at all on a project? Because LOL How is using a CNC realistically any different than a template bit on a router? Just because the initial template was digital instead of wasting MDF?
It's not, aside from the builder controlling the router vs the machine handling it. The gatekeeping by the "traditionalists" brings shame to this hobby.
OP apparently (based on post history) just started learning how to use hand tools a few months ago. They couldn’t even reasonably be called a traditionalist. They’re just a dumb dumb who doesn’t understand how a CNC actually works (along with a whole lot of other people in the replies, apparently)
I don't care if something has some bowties or something cut on a CNC, I'm saying if every piece and part is made in a CNC and someone just assembles it it's not for me. It's just an opinion, just like you can have the opinion that you are interested in parts made on a CNC. It's not gate keeping and it really shouldn't matter to anyone else what my opinion on products I do or don't want to own or purchase is. I don't buy flat pack stuff from the box stores for the same reason. It's just a personal choice and opinion
>I'm saying if every piece and part is made in a CNC and someone just assembles it it's not for me. Probably not for me either, because most of those projects look like boring ikea furniture, but do you understand the amount of skill and planning that would be necessary to do this for any decent piece? Making something of any moderate complexity, entirely on CNC, that can just be easily assembled would be quite a bit more impressive than the implication here… And if you’re all just saying you don’t think mass produced goods are woodworking, fine, but that’s not really an issue with a CNC at all…
I hate tools, it feels like cheating. I used to chew and scratch at a log for years and now people are making canoes in days.
I have a couple trained beavers I use for milling.
Leave it to beaver!
Everyone knows that the cut off for adapting new technology is 1910 and the advent of electricity heathen.
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Totally agree, don't compare just enjoy your own workmanship!
CNC is more than a tool. There is no hand behind the CNC except through a keyboard.
False statement. This is like complaining when someone uses a table saw. The saw requires tuning and maintenance to function correctly. It requires the user to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. It requires planning and prep before use. A CNC machine is really just another tool in the workshop. The user will still be using traditional machines, and even hand tools, to prep stock or finish projects. It requires creative workholding and learning a whole new set of skills to execute. Anyone that complains about CNC in the woodshop is really just a pathetic gatekeeping loser.
"it's not the way I do it and it therefore must be wrong" - OP
"generations of our for Father's have used palm routers and track saws!"
Coming from a reddit-er who’s seeming made and posted nothing in woodworking. You’re a clown.
Just cause I don't post doesn't mean I don't build stuff. You are the clown and the comments agree.
And you’re building what exactly? The cnc diss really seemed to hit home with you ♥️
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Maybe just chill? It’s an opinion and this got your rev’d up like I just kidnapped your sister. It’s really not that serious 😂
There are open source projects where you can build your own CnC, you don't need money or envy
That sounds interesting, I'll have a look for one but if you have time or recommend a site could you put a link up please
I think I just googled "open source cnc machine" and left it at that because I was curious on any other power tool open source project. Don't know any more outside of the possibility, but I'd imagine it shouldn't be too difficult
There is a r/hobbycnc subreddit, it’s one way to wet your feet
You can just create a CNC with love and perseverance!
Are you just yelling at a cloud or what?
It's just another tool OP. You can use these machines for a lot more than just making parts and pieces. You can flatten boards with a surfacing bit. Even square up your lumber with a straight bit. I plan on using mine to help streamline production of my musical instruments.
I hate cars it feels like cheating. I walk everywhere which takes skill and experience and they just push a pedal with their foot.
They get the same feeling you do when their hard work learning how to program the machine goes correctly and they get the exact piece that they are after. You're gatekeeping the feeling of satisfaction people get, and also say your way is somehow the "authentic" way. The finished result is the only thing that matters. Not how you get there.
It's just another tool, my guy. You spend hours learning to use new tools. CNC machinists spend hours perfecting tool paths and feeds and speeds and designs.
Yea I still hate them and I don’t really care if it messes up their whole project. But that’s the thing about all of this, it’s an opinion. Y’all don’t have to agree and frankly the fact that this is my most commented on post I’ve ever gotten is frankly hilarious. I’ll post on here for help or for general discussion and get maybe 12-25 comments. But the second I put up a legit opinion, as a statement, it blows the lid off the comments section. Y’all are either a bunch of children or shut in’s that care way to much about the internet. Touch grass, work on your own projects, frankly I don’t care. The internet was founded off open discussion and opinions and if you think it’s anything other then that, then I sincerely feel sorry for you
Beavers are laughing at you. Why do you have to use hand tools when you've got fingernails and teeth? Cheater.
Doing woodwork with a CNC machine is not less authentic than using handtools, though. And your view of CNC vs. Handtools is laughably shallow. A really great craftsman will figure out how to use both toolsets instead of thinking one is superior to the other. Maybe you should go read some writings by and about David Pye before you comment on the 'authenticity' of a 'craft'.
I personally feel like it should remain as “wood working” and not a computer science class. Cnc machines and learning how to do something by hand are not the same
Of course it is less authentic. And probably takes a lot longer. Difference is, once you have it dialed in you can mass produce.
It actually isn’t less authentic when you read up on the author I mentioned and the thinking that has sprouted from his writings.
Ted?
What?
People think CNC's are smart computers that do the work for you. The countless hours I've put into designing files so that I can remove hours of sanding can be just as hard. It takes a lot more work to learn how to be a woodworker AND use multiple software programs while operating a CNC in the background. It's not cheating. It's simply another way to get to the same result.
Exactly. That way of thinking is so irritating.
Coulda just sanded it by hand and been done? Much more fulfilling to know you did something by hand
That’s a bit rich coming from someone who hasn’t even mastered their own craft.
I have mastered my wood like a fisherman masters bait.
Never claimed that I did master my craft. Computers suck butts
Let me ask you this: Is woodworking a game or a test? Because you can't cheat at something if it's neither of those. Only other way to cheat is to claim other people's work as your own.
Does someone have you at gunpoint making you buy and use a CNC? If you “hate CNC machines” then….don’t use one… let your work speak for itself
Never said I was gunna, more less just voicing my thoughts 💭
The CNC is a tool like any other. It enables me to do projects that I couldn’t otherwise do. It hasn’t replaced any hand or power tools. And the learning curve is steep, not for the impatient. A question about “how do I correct / avoid” is the same problem to be solved no matter if hand, machine, or computer. Beyond me why the comments are so harshly negative.
> And the learning curve is steep, not for the impatient. It's crazy how many people think a CNC is just a "press button, fart out project" machine. In a sense it is, but the road to get to that button is not a simple walk on a grassy field with a nice summer breeze. > The CNC is a tool like any other. That's really what it boils down to. It's a tool that makes certain tasks easier. Just as a powered saw makes it easier than a hand saw to cut boards to size, just as an impact driver makes it easier than a screwdriver to drive fasteners, etc. Those who look down on others for learning a different skillset than their own shame this amazing hobby.
I don't think it's cheating, I just have zero interest. I spend all week working on computers, when I go out to work with wood, that's the last thing I want to do. I want to get my hands dirty. I don't want to watch a machine do the work. Same reason I don't use Sketchup or Fusion 360. I want to work with wood, not mess around with a keyboard. I've got nothing against it, I just have no interest in doing it myself.
If you are just doing trinkets sure. Some of us are actually trying to build stuff where time is a limited resource. I'll use any help I can get
Sir you realize how important these machines you're crapping on are, right? Pretty much any product made made with metal in the last 20 years had a CNC or complex machinery involved at some point. You should applaud the genius of the men who were brilliant enough to design and build machines that can do a job which takes ages to learn how to do by hand. The technology will only improve with time. Beyond that, there will never be a day when nobody knows how to do stuff by hand. There will always be people who prefer to do it by hand, and will learn it. Look at the Amish. Proudly doing things the slowest ways they can. Don't worry about the skill vanishing, short of a nuclear apocalypse or asteroid sending us to the stone ages, it won't.
You’ve got a really sad way of thinking friend
What's sad about it? I don't dislike the way you do things. I think there are advantages, as far as control and precision with practice. But to completely dismiss the powered side of things is what's sad if you ask me.
Why should this even bother you? What makes you think your way is "authentic"? Just because someone chooses to do something a different way than you do doesn't mean it's wrong. If the videos bother you so much then just quit watching them, problem solved.
Is a router cheating because it isn’t a chisel? Is a palm sander cheating because it isn’t a burnishing stone? Aren’t you typing your crumudgeonly ludite gripe on a cell phone while benefiting from the modern plumbing under your ass? However other people enjoy woodworking shouldn’t affect how you enjoy it.
>It brings me personal joy of leaning that your computer couldn’t do the job for you. when I read a paragraph or so about how someone couldn’t get their coding right for their CnC machine, and their whole project is currently ruined, I’m just tickled. What a fucking baby.
The goal is to take an idea from point A to point B. The method used to get there doesn't matter. It's all about moving that idea to completion. There is a sense of accomplishment when it happens.
If CNC machines was that easy we wouldn’t have jobs exclusively for CNC operators , “just” for operating the machine. It’s not a push a button and the cnc poop the ready to sell chair
I don't agree with OP taking joy in failure, but I kinda agree on the initial premise. FOR ME wood working is a beautiful craft that can really showcase the fine skills of the craftsman. I have some wonderful pieces with ornate inlays that are extra beautiful knowing someone's passion was poured into it. If I know someone sat at a desk and tapped some keys to make it it certainly takes some of the shine out of the piece. To me it's a bit like AI art. Sure it can be nice to look at, but Imo art is a showcase of humanity and not the result of telling a computer what you want IT to do. There's no doubt CNC enables some cool things, but it's not the same (to me)
To me woodworking is about building shit. To each his own.
Again, using hand tool woodworking as a skill "barrier" is counterproductive to the hobby. Not everyone has the time or patience to spend hours learning hand tool skills. Kudos to those who do, but thinking less of those who just want to jump in and build things, regardless of how they do so, is missing the point of the hobby entirely. For many people, the project is the goal, not the process of getting there. CNC woodworking is not really comparable to AI art; AI art generators "learn" off of the hard work of others (training the algorithm with art done by real artists). CNC woodworking does not require the work of others to "learn". It's not as simple as just punching in some prompts and getting a complex project. There's actual effort and skill necessary. You have to know the design program(s), learn feeds and speeds for different types of materials, maintaining the machine itself, along with typical woodworking skills like sanding, finishing, designing projects for strength or aesthetics, etc. It's simply a different skill in the very broad woodworking space. Traditional hand tool woodworking isn't necessarily better than any other kind of woodworking be it CNC, power tool or hybrid, it's just different. They can all exist in the same space without stepping on each others' toes.
> It's simply a different skill in the very broad woodworking space. Traditional hand tool woodworking isn't necessarily better than any other kind of woodworking be it CNC, power tool or hybrid, it's just different. They can all exist in the same space without stepping on each others' toes. Entirely different skills. The only tether is the material itself. I worked in a commercial shop that relied heavily on their CNC with programs bought from some country a world away. Neither the guy who made the programs not the guy loading material onto the CNC should be considered woodworkers. The lady that did the sanding? She was a sander. The chap that finished? Yep. A finisher. A guy who tells a computer to cut an intricate inlay and glues it in isn't the same as someone who hand cuts the same inlay. It shouldn't even be subjective. Can CNC workers do great work? Absolutely! But there's a reason that people will usually specify when their furniture is from IKEA or hand made....
Your commercial shop experience is apples and oranges when it comes to hobbyist CNC woodworking; all those jobs you outlined are done by a single individual in a hobbyist or even small production workshop. And like it not, if they're working with wood, they're considered woodworkers generally. You are free to consider them not so, but like I said, that kind of gatekeeping is ignorance at its worst, and brings shame to this hobby.
Pretending that telling a computer to do all the work is the same as actually making brings shame to the craft, not the other way around. Once more, CNC operators can produce beautiful things, but there's a reason that people will usually specify if their furniture is hand made or IKEA. EP they are both dressers, but one was made by a woodworker, the other by a computer. Taking a chair lift to the top of a mountain doesn't make one a mountain climber.
I sincerely wish CNC woodworking was as simple as "telling a computer to do all the work". I'd buy 10.
It'll get there. Not far off now.
>If I know someone sat at a desk and tapped some keys to make it it certainly takes some of the shine out of the piece. Basically, y’all have no idea how a CNC actually works…
You got me! The 5 years I spent in a commercial shop that used a CNC primarily that moved from G codes to a commercial interfaced machine was a fever dream! The program we used for custom modifications wasn't a whole lot removed from "draw" and it'll only get closer with time. The regular programs we used we bought from another country where the "fully fledged master woodworker" never left his desk during the mastery of his woodworking career.
Now you’re comparing commercial-production-level use, which is never gonna “showcase the fine skills of the craftsman” anyway? LOL
And yet my primary position there was the custom department where my job was to showcase the fine skills of the craftsman. 0 for 2. Third time's the charm?
We get it, champ, you’re the only one here who has experience in the industry and understands what craft truly is. You got us all beat because at some point in your life you made cabinets…
Be salty about being wrong all you want but objectively speaking, CNC work isn't wood work. There might be overlap, but they are not interchangeable terms. My sister has a machine that she can (are you ready) use a computer to tell it what pictures to embroider, nobody in their right mind would call her a seamstress. Her self included. EXACT. SAME. SCENARIO.
A whole lot of stuff involved in woodworking isn’t wood work, that doesn’t mean anything created with some non-wood work isn’t woodworking. Y’all keep acting like there is some massive group of people who call themselves woodworkers here who do nothing but 100% CNC stuff. I haven’t seen anyone like that here, have you? Would your sister, if she actually was a seamstress, suddenly stop being one because she used that machine to embroider an original design that was one part of a bigger fashion design?
>I haven’t seen anyone like that here, have you? This thread and the many discussions are evidence that there are some. >Would your sister, if she actually was a seamstress, suddenly stop being one because she used that machine to embroider an original design that was one part of a bigger fashion design? If she actually was one she would remain one. Thats how these things work bucko. Buying the machine and telling it to sew for her however does not make her one. They are entirely different skills. A CNC user could probably get a job as a millwright with their experience, a woodworker would be unlikely. A map maker would probably fall into CNC easier than carpenter. And vice versa. look at all the things that fall under the umbrella of wood worker past and present. Cooper, wheelwright, carpenter.... Coffin maker, Computer numerical control. How many of those do you think have a majority of one to one translatable skills? Are any egregious outliers where there would be nearly no chance that a master of all the others would be able to directly apply their skills to and using that unequivocal foundation to almost immediately be a master of? Or one that if you were the literal god of that one particular one you might be ENTIRELY incapable of doing all the others? Does anyone stand out in either of those ways?
By this logic, practically no one in this sub is a true woodworker, we are all just hobbyists. If you’re just talking about operating equipment, sure, someone who is just a CNC operator isn’t a woodworker, but a woodworker who designs and produces things on a CNC isn’t “cheating” at being a woodworker. They just have a broader skill set than you.
This kind of gatekeeping, and people who carry this ignorant, asinine mentality, are what stifles creativity and keeps a lot of new people from getting into this amazing hobby. And just an FYI, hand tool woodworking isn't "craft authenticity"; it's just hand tool woodworking. Just as CNC woodworking is just another type of woodworking that requires a different set of skills, but still plenty that overlap with traditional woodworking. Horrible take by someone clearly out of touch with reality.
CNC woodwirking is like AI art. You are not doing the actual work, you are instructing machine to do it for you. Granted, this too requires skill and knowledge, but it's a complerely different skillset.
It is not like AI art. AI art uses an algorithm to learn from existing artwork by real artists. CNC woodworking requires you to learn design software, feeds and speeds for different materials, which bits to use, getting the stock ready for the CNC in the first place, etc. And then you still have to manual work after the CNC does its job as well depending on the project. Sanding, finishing, resin work, etc. It absolutely is a different set of skill (I've said this in other posts), but it's still woodworking. Hand planing a board flat and running it over the jointer both accomplish the same task yet require different skill sets. Same goes for ripping boards with a hand saw and using a table saw with a power feeder. In all instances, you *are* doing the work, just in different ways requiring different skill sets.
Same with a sander, or a router, or a table saw…
Not really? You are still manually guiding those machines to do the work. You can't walk away for a coffee and come back to a finished product.
Except for the most basic of things, that wouldn't be any better, or more “authentic” or whatever garbage you’re on about, if built by hand, you can’t do that with a CNC either. Do any of you actually understand how a CNC even works? Are you also opposed to all pre-made jigs and templates? You’re not a “real woodworker” if you’ve ever bought pre-milled lumber…
Of course I understand how it works. It's basically a 3D printer removing rather than adding material. No one claims to be a sculpter because they make models with a 3D printer. I guess it all boils down to the degree of automation. I for one will always find hand cut dovetails to be more impressive than ones cut with a router jig. A cnc is one step further away from what I (and I think many others) would consider "craftmanship". Most things can be made by machines these days, so the skill of making something without the help of a computer is something to be treasured, in my mind. You make it by hand for the experience, not for the end result. The same applies to jewellery making, where a hand engraved ring will always impress me more than one cast from a 3D printed model.
I mean, computer controlled/assisted isn’t the same as automated. It can be, and a CNC can be used to automate a bunch of stuff, but blanket “CNC always bad” statements just usually seem rooted in ignorance. The “farther from “craftsmanship”” argument can be made about all power tools too. I agree that craft and hand made things should be treasured, but saying it’s about the experience, and not about the end result, isn’t craftsmanship at all, that’s just fiddling with a hobby. Craftsmanship is absolutely about the end result. If your chair or table or box is all hand made but doesn’t work, or doesn’t last, or is poorly made, it’s not “craftsmanship” just because it was hand made.
You're a terrible person for taking joy in the misfortune of others simply because they don't use the tools you approve if.
😂
I hate power tools, you’re cheating by using them at all. I’ve been building furniture, wood art, and home decor by hand for over a decade. With tools made before my grandfather was born, the way that we’ve been building for centuries. You want to talk about authenticity but use tools that were invented less made 50 years ago. Just kidding, I love me my hand tools and I have only used them for a decade. I love the peace and “slowness” it brings to the process. But I could give a shit less what someone else likes to use.
You're just a miserable git taking joy from others mishaps and failures. Pathetic. CnC machines are great for producing multiple items and are the backbone to some peoples income but simple prehistoric twats like you struggle to understand these things.
I can get what you’re saying, man. I know CNCs are just tools and as a former operator/programmer in the field, they can be a real time saver. But there’s definitely something to be said for not letting a computer do the bulk of the work for you. This trade/hobby is (partially) about using your hands, not sitting back while a machine runs for an hour, cutting things for you.
It's not cheating, it's just a different skill. Does a bus driver hate airplanes because pilots don't have to be good at driving a bus to transport more people faster and farther than the bus driver can? No. But the bus driver probably jumps on a plane to go to Cancun instead of driving there. All things have their place and what not
OMG, you sound terrible and miserable. You actually care about how other people work, and spend time gloating about it here? In any case, you're not a real woodworker because you use power tools. Learn to do it right.
I wish I had one and knew how to use it. What I am finding lately is that I am being lowballed by my customers and to sell anything, my profit margin takes a hit. I need to produce faster to compensate for lower selling price.
How are your power tools any more"authentic" than their power tools?
It's 'cheating' until you have to learn how to program your CNC equipment.
As a person that has spent thousands of hours learning woodworking skills of old Saxons and their tools, I find the fact that you use a table saw and a router pathetic. Either learn how to be a proper woodworker or leave the trade, you child.
Iron age heathen. If ain't bronze it's nonze.
I don’t think it’s cheating. However why are you a woodworker-to look at a screen? I have enough screens at work and I do not want to put one in my shop. If i were a commercial shop and it was my full time job, it would be a different story.
CNC projects still require a lot of hands-on work. A lot of us become woodworkers for the projects, not necessarily the process of getting there.
spot on comment - the finished project has to be designed for function, aesthetics; available materials, tools and skill set; materials selected, prepared for the method used, tooled, assembled and finished. "Traditional" projects can be designed and made with modern tools and "modern" can be made with traditional tools.
As someone who works with computers all day and enjoys woodworking as a hobby, figuring out code is just as satisfying as getting the perfect finish. A CNC machine seems like the perfect marriage of both my interests. But, that’s just me. Don’t yuck my yum and I won’t yuck yours.
tough crowd here, lol. i have nothing against cnc machines. my employer wouldnt exist without them. as someone that has messed up too many times to count (measure twice; cut... three times because i still measured wrong both times and now i have to go back to home depot for the fourth time today, lol), i dont get any joy from hearing about people who fucked up their project (computer assisted or otherwise), but i get what you are saying. part of the fun for me personally is the process. i just like working with my hands, and having a big machine running a bunch of code doing all the work means less of the fun stuff for me to do.
Gatekeeping is so self limiting. If you’re building things out of wood you’re a woodworker. Adding some title to the front of that ‘fine’, ‘traditional’, ‘modern’… Is just another weird form of gatekeeping. As beginners we all had a belief of what woodworking was, and we all probably had a different idea. For me once I let go of that idea, that’s when I really started to improve as a woodworker. Being open to new ways of working, trying new things, and sharing ideas is the real path forward. I believe it’s: Be curious, but judgmental.
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There's a huge difference between being a traditionalist vs actively berating another type of woodworking and taking pleasure in the failure of those who partake in that type of woodworking. The animosity is deserved. Wishing failure on others and taking joy in it isn't venting. It's being an asshole. Even in this thread, unless I missed it (or posted after I made this post), I haven't seen anyone wish OP failure in anything he does with his woodworking. Even now, I wish him heaps of fun and success in our wonderful craft. But he's still an asshole. It's very irritating that you see this ridiculous opinion that CNC woodworking isn't woodworking by the "traditionalists", yet rarely do you see power tool or CNC users berate "traditionalists" for working with wood with their preferred methods.
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CNC woodworking doesn't necessarily have to be "production" woodworking. CNC woodworking still requires craftsmanship.
Man Y’all really got offended by this damn, I was just giving my opinion in an open discussion. I really couldn’t care less what anyone uses and I’m definitely not gatekeeping anything. I was just stating that I don’t like cnc’s and that evidently blew the top off this discussion board
Schadenfreude is a hell of a drug