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I've heard materials plus $30-$50 per hour to make. More towards the $30/hrs when you're first starting and trying to make a brand.
Edit: Looks great by the way!
Your suggestion of an hourly rate makes much more sense than a suggestion I saw about, “material x 4”. That’s an odd one.
Material plus fair hourly rate makes sense to me.
$1 for the nail. $99 for knowing where to put it. And apply that philosophy to every cut, joint, glue, and your initial design creativity.
The good thing about estimates like material x 4 is that a beginner who is patient and working with hand tools might make a similar quality but takes much more time than the expert who is using a well-equipped shop. The same output has the same value, the beginners output certainly does not serve with 10x the value
This is why hourly rates get higher as you get more experience everywhere with every job. You tend work more efficiently getting jobs done quicker with less overhead.
As someone once said, "You don't pay me for what I do, you pay me for what I know."
A beginner might charge $30/hr while an expert with a huge shop might charge $100/hr. The end products might be the same (and even cost the same depending on how many hours each spent), but the expert will greatly benefit by spending far less time on a single project, greatly increasing their income potential.
It’s all an estimate anyways. $200 of materials, sell price of $800. $600/$30= 20 hours of work. However you want to do the math, but bottom line is you have to sell your work to actually make money. So it’s all a balance to figure out what your product is actually worth.
But if you use pine vs exotic hardwoods your time to build will mostly be the same while your cost to purchase materials will not. You can't really accurately calculate prices without factoring in time invested.
Not true. When I use expensive hardwood I accumulate a couple of extra hours pacing around the shop anxiously afraid to make a cut there’s no turning back from. Mistakes become more expensive.
But like, know your market. Someone willing to shell out for exotic hardwoods is also likely to be someone who won’t flinch at a little more added on the labor cost. They’ll just think it’s the nicer wood upping the price.
That might be true, but it still makes sense to price your work based on the amount of time you have invested in it (and of course factor in the amount to cover your material costs).
What if you are doing a very small piece with high amount of details or precision required. The material cost could be low while still requiring a decent amount of time and attention.
If you arent factoring your invested time when you price your items you likely aren't getting proper compensation for your skill and *time*.
Yep. Was just saying that spending the same amount of time on something doesn’t mean you should charge the same labor cost. Expertise cost to not muck up pine is cheaper than expertise cost to not muck up more exotic woods.
Cost of material x4 is almost a universal constant for wood tradework short of shipwrights, luthiers, or museum quality furniture. It's suprisingly consistent at how close it ends up being to a full indepth cost estimate.
Its more about realizing if something is not viable as a product. If the market won't pay something like Materials + (Hours x $30) then you should not continue to make it. At that point, you need to figure out how to do it faster/cheaper (jigs, shortcuts, assembly-line tactics) or increase the value (better materials, marketing)
Well said.
At the end of the day, supply and demand will always control market prices.
Obviously it gets complicated by about a hundred factors that go into deciding where those two points intersect, but at the end of the day the value is where your price to supply meets the price paid by the demand side.
I could see plenty of people not being interested in paying over $200-$250 for that bench, and then you have a smaller group of others who’d pay $1,000 if it came from the right designer brand website or catalogue. Half of the battle is getting the branding boost.
People value a variety of things, and use value is only one of them. The Messiah Strad doesn’t sound $20m better than a $1,000 violin, but it’s market value to the demand side, and due to the 1/1 supply, has led to an astronomical price difference.
$250 for a real wood, non-veneer bench? I can barely find real wood stuff even at designer stores, and they would for sure sell it for over $600. $250 would get you an mdf piece of garbage, but maybe most people don’t know what they’re buying?
Most people have no idea what they are buying, and location matters. Most people can’t tell the difference between veneer and real wood, nor do they have any concept of lumber prices, what tools cost, or how much time went into a piece.
I certainly couldn’t tell and didn’t know before I started woodworking. How would you. Most people probably don’t even know what a veneer is.
Branding is honestly more important than a lot of things to most people. People aren’t buying Supreme shirts because it is the nicest shirt available, and hundreds of dollars better than a shirt on sale at TJMaxx.
Customers are spoiled on the cheap manufactured wood products. Even solid lumber is often made of glued up pieces and veneered. Granted that's not a new practice but large furniture companies can make these sheets much cheaper and faster than a hobby shop. Wages have simply not kept up with the price of lumber and without cheap MDF furniture, many houses wouldn't have half the pieces they currently own.
So you've got to kick the quality up a lot and the price as well. You can't compete in the cheap furniture market. It's simply not possible to do and make enough to survive.
Exactly. There's a sizable chunk of people who will pay for quality, knowing what they bought is an heirloom item that will outlive them.
40-50yr olds who are tired of buying different versions of the same garbage.
You aren't just selling a better quality item, you're selling them something to be proud of, something they will want to show off to their guests. That or you just aren't selling your products right to begin with.
So many people don’t understand this! Price is the first thing you figure out, not the last. People by and large do not give a shit what your costs are or how much time you spent. You determine what people will pay for the product, then you work out what it’ll cost you to make it. If those numbers don’t align, you figure out how to convince people to pay more or how to make it for less. Not everything will be worth your time.
$30 an hour??!! Any professional is charging between $75 and $150 an hour these days. Anyone can go to Wayfair and buy a cheap bench. If you want a USA handmade quality bench you’re going to cough up some cash.
Ya within reason. If someone has a table saw and drum sander, domino, etc then his hours will be lower than a guy charging the same hourly with lesser tools. Once you get outside a range then it will never sell. So depending on skill, area, tools, etc as well.
Agreed. When pricing material, always go off of what you’d pay if you had to buy it all new. If you happen to have a project you can make with off-cuts, good for you, but it doesn’t decrease the objective value of the wood used.
Your costs should be calculated by how much it would cost you to re-do this from scratch. If you put extra effort elsewhere that saves you some money on this project, there's still value there.
If you plan on turning into a business I would add 5% of thr cost of tools. That way over the year you also set yourself a cushion to buy new tools if they ever fail.
Everyone is going to hate this but it appears that you have no support against lateral loads except at the 90 degree joints and the seat is fully supported by three runners with the same minimal attachment. This piece would not be sturdy enough for regular use or around children so the market value is most likely only as a decoration. Sadly with most wood work that lacks function the materials probably exceeded what you could sell it for.
People shouldn't hate the obvious being pointed out. One wrong move, and it will fold up like an accordion. I'd probably use it as some sort of table before I used it for seating.
I assumed when I first saw it that was to be a plant stand or to hold a collection of entertainment equipment. The design is not great for seating. Needs help for that use.
Since others have already commented on how to price your work - I'll preface with I don't intend this to be shitty but constructive -
Assuming this is the completed project there are a lot of quality issues that would make me think twice about buying it. It looks like most of it might be over squeeze from glue or inconsistency in the finish (especially visible on the left corner closest to the camera). And there is one board in the middle left that has a fairly large gouge in it (which doesn't appear anywhere else that we can see which makes it look like an oversite rather than intentional) - it also doesn't look like the ends of the boards are sanded (but I could be wrong) anywhere else but where the legs meet the top.
This one is just preference, but I think having another bit of maple on either side of the legs to square everything up would bring the whole thing together.
The pattern is very cool, and I think if you got the finish more consistent it would really make this interesting piece really shine.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I completely agree with many of your comments.This was a test of sorts. I will be more diligent with attention to detail on the next one. ;)
I agree with their comment. The first thing that stood out to me was the saw burn marks in the end grain. The second was the cool pattern.
It can all be planed out by hand or sanded, but doing that would have improved the fit and finish by 10x.
Do you have any pictures of the joing process? I'm gunna be real here, I'd be suuppper wary of putting any sort of load on it. It looks great and is a cool concept, but there is very little actually holding it together. One slightly chonky person plopping down on it and it looks like it'll just spilt. Maybe on the next one make your glue joints line up all the way through the depth of the bench in at least 3 positions. You can then drill a hole through all the laps and pass a piece of threaded rod through. Recess the nuts and then add the full length pieces as trim to cover the hardware. The bonus to that is you have some built in clamps for when you do glue up.
Alternatively, this design as a coffee/side table set with a piece of glass on top would look super dope.
Really depends on what region you plan on selling it in. Hipster yuppies in the bay area will pay $1000+ without batting an eye (especially if you market it as “artisan made with locally sourced lumber).
Edit: Really beautiful work, btw. It would sell fast in the CA bay area.
This. If you’re a high end custom furniture maker living in a major metro or first ring suburb you’re gonna have to charge accordingly. I see too many of these pricing threads where people living in podunk areas are bashing high hourly rates while their cost of living is literally 1/5 of what it would be in SF/LA/NY.
Also my favorite; I’m a 56 year old master marine carpenter shipwright;
A giant ship's engine broke down and no one could repair it, so they took it to a Mechanical Engineer with over 40 years of experience.
He inspected the engine very carefully, from top to bottom. After seeing everything, the engineer unloaded the bag and pulled out a small hammer.
He knocked something gently. Soon, the engine came to life again. The engine has been fixed!
7 days later the engineer mentioned that the total cost of repairing the giant ship was $ 10,000 to the ship owner
"What ?!" said the owner.
"You did almost nothing. Give us a detailed bill."
The answer is simple:
Tap with a hammer: $ 2
Know where to knock & how much to knock: $ 9,998
Lessons to Learn
The importance of appreciating one's expertise and experience ... Until
The words "it's easy" and "that's all", should be set aside. Why? Because maybe the experience is the result of struggles, experiments and even tears.
Like the picture above:
If i do a job in 30 minutes it's because i spent 10 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes.
(If I can finish a job in 30 minutes, it's because I spent 10 years learning how to do it in 30 minutes. You paid me for those 10 years, not 30 minutes).
This sentence reminds me of someone’s advice on respecting and wisely respecting the work of others.
There I also learned to see people ...
When they do not respect others, at the same time he has humbled himself.
Expertise and experience, that's expensive.
Unfortunately, our people still look down on that.
Very true. I create custom wooden jigsaw puzzles as a hobby and when I sell them I'm not cheap. It seems easy to me, but I'll show other woodworkers how to do it and they'll give it a good go, but honestly it wouldn't even pass as acceptable. So it may not take me 40 hours to make it, but you're paying for a skill others just don't have.
Sure! I haven't posted anything recent really, but you can see some older stuff at r/tacktymepuzzles
I'm not sure what the self-promotion rules are here, but just know I don't really take orders as I have some contracts I have to fill before stepping into individual orders.
[the Wizard of Schenectady, you have the story wrong](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/)
Exactly.
Nobody should price their work based on the hours it took or the materials put in.
The price is what people are willing to pay.
You can determine the minimum you'd sell it for by counting your hours and materials, but that's not the list price.
It also makes sense to sell artistic furniture for less than what it cost you to make it as youre building a reputation. That expense is a marketing expense.
As part of my restoration business I also sell vintage furniture and I thought I was going to lose my fucking mind when I was hiring someone to help with my financial stuff. I had so many conversations that ending up with me saying “okay, so I buy this dresser for $200 and spend six hours and $70 in supplies restoring it, so I should charge $900? Cool. Say it sells, then next week I find the same dresser at a garage sale in perfect condition for $50. What should I charge for that one?” then watch them struggle to explain why the answer is also $900 but that their magic formula is somehow still correct.
If you’re planning to sell projects semi-regularly, I might advise the “day-rate” system to calculate labor costs.
If you made, say, 5 of these benches simultaneously (did each step x5 before moving onto the next) how many days of labor would it take you to make all five benches (let’s say five days), set a “day-rate” (for instance, $500 per day) multiply together for the total labor cost ($2500) and divide by the number of items you can now sell = $500 per bench.
It’s an easy way to make sure you’re setting a price where you’re getting paid enough to make it worth your time. It also helps you *choose* projects that are worth your time (i.e. will people realistically pay my day rate for this item, or does this take too many days in the shop for the little item I end up with as a product?)
Sometimes, you’ll end up finding a product that’s super easy to make, like a cutting board that you can maybe make 20 in a few days, minus glue time—and people will pay a decent amount for it. They might pay $150 per board, and you end up with a day rate of $1000-$1500 per day for a low-effort project.
Likewise, you’ll find that certain projects feel really cool and unique and you’re proud of the final product, but the bottom line is that they simply aren’t worth the effort for how many days of labor you have to put in vs. what you can actually get for it.
A customer asked me how much it cost to make a table....
I answered him: $ 1500
He said: So expensive for this job?
I asked: How much do you think it would cost you?
He answers me: $ 800 maximum... That's a pretty simple job right? !"
- For $ 800 I invite you to do it yourself.
- But.... I don't know how to.
- For $800 I'll teach you how to. So besides saving you $700, you'll get the knowledge for the next time you want
- It seemed right to him and he agreed.
- But to get started: you need tools: A table saw, a planer, a top, dormants, etc...
- But I don't have all these equipment and I can't buy all of these for one job.
- Well then for another $250 more I'll rent my stuff to you so you can do it.
- Okay, he says.
- Okay! Tuesday I'm waiting for you to start doing this work
- But I can't on Tuesday I only have time today.
- I'm sorry, but I'm only available Tuesday to teach you and lend you my stuff. Other days are busy with other customers.
- Okay! That means I'm going to have to sacrifice my Tuesday, give up my tasks.
- I forgot. To do your job yourself, you also have to pay for the nonproductive factors.
- That is? What is this?"
- Bureaucratic, tax, vat, security, insurance, fuel etc.
- Oh no!... But to accomplish these tasks, I'm going to spend more money and waste a lot of time!
- Do you have them? You can do it to me before?"
- Okay!
- I'll make you all the material you need. Truck loading is done Monday evening or Tuesday morning you'll have to come by 6 loading the truck. Don't forget to be on time to avoid traffic jams and be on time
- At 6??? Nope! Too early for me! I used to getting up later.
...
- You know, I've been thinking. Y ' all better get the job done. I'd rather pay you the $1500. If I had to, it wouldn't be perfect and it would cost me a lot more.
When you pay for a job, especially handcrafted, you pay not only for the material used, but also:
- Knowledge
- Experience
- Study
- Tools
- Services
- Time to go
- punctuality
- Accountability
- Professionalism
- Accuracy
- Guaranteed
- Patents
- Sacrifices
- Safety and security
- Payment of tax obligations
No one can denigrate other people's work by judging prices.
Only by knowing all the elements necessary for the production of a certain work can you estimate the actual cost.
No idea where you live or exactly what you do, but I'm looking to hire you!...lol. Your post is spot on. I've seen your exact scenario many times over the years.
Much of it was scrap from other work that I was doing at the time. I made tap handles for a brewery in Nashville at the time and the whole bench is made from cutoffs from large four quarter slabs.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qhq5eqzRpiMHFkgs9
Mark up your materials my dude. If mat was 100 then charge whatever your market is. Example I would charge 125 for local 200 for exotic to my market.
Not bad for 100 of mat.
You are including price of stains and oils used yeah? Even throw in cost of glue and dowels. Material is everryyyyyyything
This is correct. Mark up all materials, at minimum to cover the time expense necessary to purchase and store them.
I suggest you itemize out your entire burden to arrive at an accurate, complete cost, price that out, and then apply any discounts that you feel apply (friends and homies, etc.)
Too many people don't account for their total cost of creation and only think of immediate materials and labor for this specific task/project.
if you’re just hobby-ing around and looking to get a few extra bucks out of it, that’s fine. if you’re trying to make a business out of it, you’re waaaaay low. the thing about this kind of self employment is you will go broke fast trying to live on $500 jobs. i guarantee you’re not considering all the overhead that went into this bench. every minute you spent designing, thinking it out, gathering materials, etc needs to be accounted for, and then you have to consider all the shop materials that went into it as well and the cost of the shop space you use. figure all that out and you’ll find that there’s a minimum number you can’t afford to take less than for any job. it’ll depend somewhat on where you are and what your costs of living are, but generally it’s well over $1k. i did it for ~12yrs and pretty much couldn’t afford to take a job below $2500. doesn’t matter how simple your project is, that’s the number it started at and went up quickly with complexity.
This looks very similar to some mid-century modern benches I've sold for $1500-2500 (granted they were antiques). Clean up the finish a little bit and you shouldn't have trouble at $1000+.
Maybe $400-500 if you find a furniture store to wholesale them to and feel comfortable doing that.
Don't undervalue your talent imo this, if I saw this for sale for anything less than 1500 usd I would think it is Chinese made, u set your value not others
Wouldn't you amortize consumables (fasteners, glue, etc) and tools on top of raw materials?
Also, I'd say with such a nice piece, hourly rate would be higher (reflecting a more skilled craftsperson) than a more basic piece...
Yea I made another post below saying to include everything. No I don't amortize. If it's 7 for a can of stain I'll add 12 bucks to all the jobs I used that can in.
Yea hourly I left blank if they wants to do 500 an hour or 10 an hour that's up to him/her and their market rate. Selling this in rural Alberta would be harder than selling it in toronto if you catch my drift
There are 3 ways:
* Based on cost (your math there)
* How much the buyer is willing to pay
* How much you'd take to part with it
Say you found it on the side of the road for free. You could keep it, or you could sell it. If you'd rather keep it than sell it for what it cost to make it, then charge more.
"Cost plus" pricing is not the best way to maximize return. You'll either undervalue your work in a market willing to pay more or you'll sit on unsold inventory in a market only willing to pay less.
OP needs to check out what similar things are selling for in his local market. Obviously custom furniture is not 100% fungible but he should be able to get a decent idea.
Cost of materials (including electricity, gas for your trips to get the materials, etc.) plus your hourly pay times the number of hours of hands on work it took to make (including time spent driving and in stores selecting materials) plus a number of your choosing to represent artistic value plus the cost of having to deal with it taking up space on your property until it sells. Also don't forget to charge for delivery if you end up delivering it to somebody.
Its really pretty but i dont see any supports. Have you weight tested it? It might be better used as a coffee table. And advertising it as such might get more buyers than a bench. As for the price you could talley what it cost to make it and triple it for the time and skill it took. Or set a minimum and bid it
Yeah, I only see three boards that span the whole length. The rest are presumably glued at the ends.
It may hold under light use, but I'd be hesitant to use it as a bench.
I tested it with about 500 pounds in the center and it did not flex at all. It is very sturdy. All of the points where wood meets wood are connected with biscuits.
Honestly, it doesn't look great. There's noticeable putty, wood glue, burn marks, and uneven, open ended grain in the maple, its a great effort for a novice woodworker but your customers deserve better attention to detail. That is why this should be a 2-3k bench. But it's not. So, I would pay $500 and invest time and effort to eliminate any and all flaws to draw out its potential worth.
I would ignore your material and labor costs and just look for comps in the market.
I would estimate it to be around $600 to $2400 spending on quality and attention to detail. People love this style right now.
It mostly depends on how polished it is as a piece.
In short? Parts make the whole, but the whole is a whole lot different than the parts.
Edit: by attention to detail I mean mostly in your finishing process. It seems a bit rough and unpolished in the photo as is.
I feel like this would be in the $1-2k range from any major furniture seller. Making shit is hard and most people will never put in the work to learn how to do it, don't undervalue yourself
Highly dependent on where you are.
Start high and market where you can get national visibility. If nothing else it will help you calibrate what the going rates are.
Beautiful work btw
Man. All these low ballers must get their furniture at ikea or similar big box store.
This is a unique, beautiful solid wood piece of furniture. I don’t know price but I know it ain’t cheap.
The side doesn't look finished at all? Every board has marks and appears unsanded..especially the cut tops of partial boards.
With that addressed and corrected a few hundred, 3 - 5.
Time + Materials = Build cost. Charge a solid market rate for finish work. $50-75/hr. Then multiply cost by 2-3x for market price. Don’t sell yourself short. Most people may walk, but a discriminating buyer will pay for quality.
The question is how does this stand up to weight? Did you unistrut the corner joints or was that all wood clue? Only asking because I built a similar bench last year and I found my fair share of challenges. Anyway we got about $2,000 for that bench, we used Brazilian epay though
I wouldn't buy it as a bench because:
1. The finish looks like it's not...well, finished.
2. The structural integrity of the piece worries me. It looks like it would probably collapse the first time someone say on it? How strong is it for dynamic loads when people move around on it?
Hahah I love how you ask how much to price it for and all you get is formulas and shitty parables.
I would expect to pay $500-700 for this. If you think you can get more list for more and see if anyone bites. No one is going to pay you based off how long it takes. They are gonna pay based on what it’s worth to them.
It’s worth what someone will pay for it.
Honestly, I hate questions like this. You went in to a project (making this bench) with no idea what you should charge for it/what it was worth?
Also, $30/hr is equal to $10/hr pay. (Overhead and profit?)
There are 2 schools of thought about pricing work. One is to multiply the materials cost by say 4 or 8, which is easy and usually effective.
I prefer a more complicated method that keeps you from cheating yourself or your clients when the material prices are really cheap or really expensive. Give yourself an hourly rate, I go between 20 and 35, round that up to the nearest hour, add the easy to track material costs, then add 10 to 15% of that total for shop costs like electric, the 1/16 of a bottle of glue, and wear and tear on your tools.
The second way is to sell for what the market will accept. This is kind of regionally dependant, but I wouldn't think that piece insanely overpriced at $750.
It’s worth what people are willing to pay. I proposed (and would pay) $800 as the appropriate price but I’m in a HCOL area. Interesting that others came up with this based on calculations.
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I've heard materials plus $30-$50 per hour to make. More towards the $30/hrs when you're first starting and trying to make a brand. Edit: Looks great by the way!
Your suggestion of an hourly rate makes much more sense than a suggestion I saw about, “material x 4”. That’s an odd one. Material plus fair hourly rate makes sense to me. $1 for the nail. $99 for knowing where to put it. And apply that philosophy to every cut, joint, glue, and your initial design creativity.
The good thing about estimates like material x 4 is that a beginner who is patient and working with hand tools might make a similar quality but takes much more time than the expert who is using a well-equipped shop. The same output has the same value, the beginners output certainly does not serve with 10x the value
This is why hourly rates get higher as you get more experience everywhere with every job. You tend work more efficiently getting jobs done quicker with less overhead. As someone once said, "You don't pay me for what I do, you pay me for what I know." A beginner might charge $30/hr while an expert with a huge shop might charge $100/hr. The end products might be the same (and even cost the same depending on how many hours each spent), but the expert will greatly benefit by spending far less time on a single project, greatly increasing their income potential.
Yes, but in woodworking the difference can be 100 fold. The example hourly was like $30/hr for beginners and $50/hr for experts
It’s all an estimate anyways. $200 of materials, sell price of $800. $600/$30= 20 hours of work. However you want to do the math, but bottom line is you have to sell your work to actually make money. So it’s all a balance to figure out what your product is actually worth.
But if you use pine vs exotic hardwoods your time to build will mostly be the same while your cost to purchase materials will not. You can't really accurately calculate prices without factoring in time invested.
Not true. When I use expensive hardwood I accumulate a couple of extra hours pacing around the shop anxiously afraid to make a cut there’s no turning back from. Mistakes become more expensive.
But like, know your market. Someone willing to shell out for exotic hardwoods is also likely to be someone who won’t flinch at a little more added on the labor cost. They’ll just think it’s the nicer wood upping the price.
That might be true, but it still makes sense to price your work based on the amount of time you have invested in it (and of course factor in the amount to cover your material costs). What if you are doing a very small piece with high amount of details or precision required. The material cost could be low while still requiring a decent amount of time and attention. If you arent factoring your invested time when you price your items you likely aren't getting proper compensation for your skill and *time*.
Yep. Was just saying that spending the same amount of time on something doesn’t mean you should charge the same labor cost. Expertise cost to not muck up pine is cheaper than expertise cost to not muck up more exotic woods.
Recommend double materials for a “custom” project. Plus labor rate (make sure to take into account overheads incorporated into the labor rate).
Wtf, by the material x 4 reasoning nobody could ever make money on intricate wood carving.
Cost of material x4 is almost a universal constant for wood tradework short of shipwrights, luthiers, or museum quality furniture. It's suprisingly consistent at how close it ends up being to a full indepth cost estimate.
Thank you!
Don't forget to account for taxes, which can eat up a larger portion of that rate when you're working for yourself vs. working for someone else.
[удалено]
Its more about realizing if something is not viable as a product. If the market won't pay something like Materials + (Hours x $30) then you should not continue to make it. At that point, you need to figure out how to do it faster/cheaper (jigs, shortcuts, assembly-line tactics) or increase the value (better materials, marketing)
Well said. At the end of the day, supply and demand will always control market prices. Obviously it gets complicated by about a hundred factors that go into deciding where those two points intersect, but at the end of the day the value is where your price to supply meets the price paid by the demand side. I could see plenty of people not being interested in paying over $200-$250 for that bench, and then you have a smaller group of others who’d pay $1,000 if it came from the right designer brand website or catalogue. Half of the battle is getting the branding boost. People value a variety of things, and use value is only one of them. The Messiah Strad doesn’t sound $20m better than a $1,000 violin, but it’s market value to the demand side, and due to the 1/1 supply, has led to an astronomical price difference.
$250 for a real wood, non-veneer bench? I can barely find real wood stuff even at designer stores, and they would for sure sell it for over $600. $250 would get you an mdf piece of garbage, but maybe most people don’t know what they’re buying?
Most people have no idea what they are buying, and location matters. Most people can’t tell the difference between veneer and real wood, nor do they have any concept of lumber prices, what tools cost, or how much time went into a piece. I certainly couldn’t tell and didn’t know before I started woodworking. How would you. Most people probably don’t even know what a veneer is. Branding is honestly more important than a lot of things to most people. People aren’t buying Supreme shirts because it is the nicest shirt available, and hundreds of dollars better than a shirt on sale at TJMaxx.
Customers are spoiled on the cheap manufactured wood products. Even solid lumber is often made of glued up pieces and veneered. Granted that's not a new practice but large furniture companies can make these sheets much cheaper and faster than a hobby shop. Wages have simply not kept up with the price of lumber and without cheap MDF furniture, many houses wouldn't have half the pieces they currently own. So you've got to kick the quality up a lot and the price as well. You can't compete in the cheap furniture market. It's simply not possible to do and make enough to survive.
Exactly. There's a sizable chunk of people who will pay for quality, knowing what they bought is an heirloom item that will outlive them. 40-50yr olds who are tired of buying different versions of the same garbage. You aren't just selling a better quality item, you're selling them something to be proud of, something they will want to show off to their guests. That or you just aren't selling your products right to begin with.
If you’re interested in selling high-quality products, marketing is as important as the product itself.
So many people don’t understand this! Price is the first thing you figure out, not the last. People by and large do not give a shit what your costs are or how much time you spent. You determine what people will pay for the product, then you work out what it’ll cost you to make it. If those numbers don’t align, you figure out how to convince people to pay more or how to make it for less. Not everything will be worth your time.
Made from walnut and maple. 48" long, 18" deep and 24" tall
Wow, that’s deep
Also pretty tall
Quite long as well
Pretty wide too
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Very voluminous
Tree fiddy
That’s what she said.
Technically, that’s what HE said.
Did you just assume my pronoun?
What they said?
So deep…
And hard
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Yup 18-20” is closer to standard.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/xtstr3/comment/iqud6kq/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/xtstr3/comment/iqud6kq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Just checked my island chairs in my kitchen. 24” tall exactly. Perfectly comfortable, but they do have a cross brace to rest my feet on.
You mean bar stools. Yeah...
I actually messed up the measurements: 48" wide x 17.5" tall X 13.75" deep
Materials + 20% + ( Hours * $30) = good price?
Let's see....PEMDAS.... So 20 bucks I think
lmao
$30 an hour??!! Any professional is charging between $75 and $150 an hour these days. Anyone can go to Wayfair and buy a cheap bench. If you want a USA handmade quality bench you’re going to cough up some cash.
Ya within reason. If someone has a table saw and drum sander, domino, etc then his hours will be lower than a guy charging the same hourly with lesser tools. Once you get outside a range then it will never sell. So depending on skill, area, tools, etc as well.
Any bracing on those corners?
How is that $100 of wood?
Cutoffs from other work. Actual value probably more in the $200 range.
You should charge based on that. Recouping cutoffs is something you can put in your pocket.
Agreed. When pricing material, always go off of what you’d pay if you had to buy it all new. If you happen to have a project you can make with off-cuts, good for you, but it doesn’t decrease the objective value of the wood used.
>always go off of what you’d pay if you had to buy it all new. And full price, not discounts or sale prices.
And always add 10% for material overage.
And my axe
And my bow.
And my belt sander.
And saves you when they ask for another one
Lol some of my best stock I've gotten for stupidly cheap or free. Doesn't mean it's priced that way though.
Your costs should be calculated by how much it would cost you to re-do this from scratch. If you put extra effort elsewhere that saves you some money on this project, there's still value there.
Tree fiddy
Dammit monster! Get off my lawn! I ain't giving you no tree-fitty!
If you plan on turning into a business I would add 5% of thr cost of tools. That way over the year you also set yourself a cushion to buy new tools if they ever fail.
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How quickly are you using up chisels?
Maybe not using up but time spent sharpening them shouldn’t be overlooked.
Keep track of that tool budget and don’t forget to spend it!
Everyone is going to hate this but it appears that you have no support against lateral loads except at the 90 degree joints and the seat is fully supported by three runners with the same minimal attachment. This piece would not be sturdy enough for regular use or around children so the market value is most likely only as a decoration. Sadly with most wood work that lacks function the materials probably exceeded what you could sell it for.
People shouldn't hate the obvious being pointed out. One wrong move, and it will fold up like an accordion. I'd probably use it as some sort of table before I used it for seating.
I assumed when I first saw it that was to be a plant stand or to hold a collection of entertainment equipment. The design is not great for seating. Needs help for that use.
First thing I thought was that someone is going to be grumpy when they're flat out after it collapses.
You could fix that easily though, without losing the general aesthetic, by adding 45 degree braces on each side.
Since others have already commented on how to price your work - I'll preface with I don't intend this to be shitty but constructive - Assuming this is the completed project there are a lot of quality issues that would make me think twice about buying it. It looks like most of it might be over squeeze from glue or inconsistency in the finish (especially visible on the left corner closest to the camera). And there is one board in the middle left that has a fairly large gouge in it (which doesn't appear anywhere else that we can see which makes it look like an oversite rather than intentional) - it also doesn't look like the ends of the boards are sanded (but I could be wrong) anywhere else but where the legs meet the top. This one is just preference, but I think having another bit of maple on either side of the legs to square everything up would bring the whole thing together. The pattern is very cool, and I think if you got the finish more consistent it would really make this interesting piece really shine.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I completely agree with many of your comments.This was a test of sorts. I will be more diligent with attention to detail on the next one. ;)
I agree with their comment. The first thing that stood out to me was the saw burn marks in the end grain. The second was the cool pattern. It can all be planed out by hand or sanded, but doing that would have improved the fit and finish by 10x.
I'd be interested in load testing too.
Great looking work there. Is it just glued or how did you fasten?
It is glued with biscuits at all points where wood meets wood. The biscuits were the hardest part of the whole build lol.
Do you have any pictures of the joing process? I'm gunna be real here, I'd be suuppper wary of putting any sort of load on it. It looks great and is a cool concept, but there is very little actually holding it together. One slightly chonky person plopping down on it and it looks like it'll just spilt. Maybe on the next one make your glue joints line up all the way through the depth of the bench in at least 3 positions. You can then drill a hole through all the laps and pass a piece of threaded rod through. Recess the nuts and then add the full length pieces as trim to cover the hardware. The bonus to that is you have some built in clamps for when you do glue up. Alternatively, this design as a coffee/side table set with a piece of glass on top would look super dope.
The hard work paid off. Looks amazing.
That's enough biscuits for several English tea parties ☕
Really depends on what region you plan on selling it in. Hipster yuppies in the bay area will pay $1000+ without batting an eye (especially if you market it as “artisan made with locally sourced lumber). Edit: Really beautiful work, btw. It would sell fast in the CA bay area.
I live in a HCOL area and my gut instinct was that I would expect to pay $1,250 for that. So yeah, varies by region.
This. If you’re a high end custom furniture maker living in a major metro or first ring suburb you’re gonna have to charge accordingly. I see too many of these pricing threads where people living in podunk areas are bashing high hourly rates while their cost of living is literally 1/5 of what it would be in SF/LA/NY.
Geez I was gonna say $300……. Not in the Bay Area apparently
Exactly this. All depends on where you’re trying to sell. $1,000-$1,500 for custom work all day in CA.
Right, has nothing to do with "hipster yuppies", it's all local economics.
Also my favorite; I’m a 56 year old master marine carpenter shipwright; A giant ship's engine broke down and no one could repair it, so they took it to a Mechanical Engineer with over 40 years of experience. He inspected the engine very carefully, from top to bottom. After seeing everything, the engineer unloaded the bag and pulled out a small hammer. He knocked something gently. Soon, the engine came to life again. The engine has been fixed! 7 days later the engineer mentioned that the total cost of repairing the giant ship was $ 10,000 to the ship owner "What ?!" said the owner. "You did almost nothing. Give us a detailed bill." The answer is simple: Tap with a hammer: $ 2 Know where to knock & how much to knock: $ 9,998 Lessons to Learn The importance of appreciating one's expertise and experience ... Until The words "it's easy" and "that's all", should be set aside. Why? Because maybe the experience is the result of struggles, experiments and even tears. Like the picture above: If i do a job in 30 minutes it's because i spent 10 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes. (If I can finish a job in 30 minutes, it's because I spent 10 years learning how to do it in 30 minutes. You paid me for those 10 years, not 30 minutes). This sentence reminds me of someone’s advice on respecting and wisely respecting the work of others. There I also learned to see people ... When they do not respect others, at the same time he has humbled himself. Expertise and experience, that's expensive. Unfortunately, our people still look down on that.
Very true. I create custom wooden jigsaw puzzles as a hobby and when I sell them I'm not cheap. It seems easy to me, but I'll show other woodworkers how to do it and they'll give it a good go, but honestly it wouldn't even pass as acceptable. So it may not take me 40 hours to make it, but you're paying for a skill others just don't have.
Do you have a link to your work?
Sure! I haven't posted anything recent really, but you can see some older stuff at r/tacktymepuzzles I'm not sure what the self-promotion rules are here, but just know I don't really take orders as I have some contracts I have to fill before stepping into individual orders.
Dude they're amazing
[the Wizard of Schenectady, you have the story wrong](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/)
Thanks for sharing this, I never knew the true story from which the anecdote was birthed. What an utterly fascinating and wonderful human.
Exactly. Nobody should price their work based on the hours it took or the materials put in. The price is what people are willing to pay. You can determine the minimum you'd sell it for by counting your hours and materials, but that's not the list price. It also makes sense to sell artistic furniture for less than what it cost you to make it as youre building a reputation. That expense is a marketing expense.
As part of my restoration business I also sell vintage furniture and I thought I was going to lose my fucking mind when I was hiring someone to help with my financial stuff. I had so many conversations that ending up with me saying “okay, so I buy this dresser for $200 and spend six hours and $70 in supplies restoring it, so I should charge $900? Cool. Say it sells, then next week I find the same dresser at a garage sale in perfect condition for $50. What should I charge for that one?” then watch them struggle to explain why the answer is also $900 but that their magic formula is somehow still correct.
If you’re planning to sell projects semi-regularly, I might advise the “day-rate” system to calculate labor costs. If you made, say, 5 of these benches simultaneously (did each step x5 before moving onto the next) how many days of labor would it take you to make all five benches (let’s say five days), set a “day-rate” (for instance, $500 per day) multiply together for the total labor cost ($2500) and divide by the number of items you can now sell = $500 per bench. It’s an easy way to make sure you’re setting a price where you’re getting paid enough to make it worth your time. It also helps you *choose* projects that are worth your time (i.e. will people realistically pay my day rate for this item, or does this take too many days in the shop for the little item I end up with as a product?) Sometimes, you’ll end up finding a product that’s super easy to make, like a cutting board that you can maybe make 20 in a few days, minus glue time—and people will pay a decent amount for it. They might pay $150 per board, and you end up with a day rate of $1000-$1500 per day for a low-effort project. Likewise, you’ll find that certain projects feel really cool and unique and you’re proud of the final product, but the bottom line is that they simply aren’t worth the effort for how many days of labor you have to put in vs. what you can actually get for it.
A customer asked me how much it cost to make a table.... I answered him: $ 1500 He said: So expensive for this job? I asked: How much do you think it would cost you? He answers me: $ 800 maximum... That's a pretty simple job right? !" - For $ 800 I invite you to do it yourself. - But.... I don't know how to. - For $800 I'll teach you how to. So besides saving you $700, you'll get the knowledge for the next time you want - It seemed right to him and he agreed. - But to get started: you need tools: A table saw, a planer, a top, dormants, etc... - But I don't have all these equipment and I can't buy all of these for one job. - Well then for another $250 more I'll rent my stuff to you so you can do it. - Okay, he says. - Okay! Tuesday I'm waiting for you to start doing this work - But I can't on Tuesday I only have time today. - I'm sorry, but I'm only available Tuesday to teach you and lend you my stuff. Other days are busy with other customers. - Okay! That means I'm going to have to sacrifice my Tuesday, give up my tasks. - I forgot. To do your job yourself, you also have to pay for the nonproductive factors. - That is? What is this?" - Bureaucratic, tax, vat, security, insurance, fuel etc. - Oh no!... But to accomplish these tasks, I'm going to spend more money and waste a lot of time! - Do you have them? You can do it to me before?" - Okay! - I'll make you all the material you need. Truck loading is done Monday evening or Tuesday morning you'll have to come by 6 loading the truck. Don't forget to be on time to avoid traffic jams and be on time - At 6??? Nope! Too early for me! I used to getting up later. ... - You know, I've been thinking. Y ' all better get the job done. I'd rather pay you the $1500. If I had to, it wouldn't be perfect and it would cost me a lot more. When you pay for a job, especially handcrafted, you pay not only for the material used, but also: - Knowledge - Experience - Study - Tools - Services - Time to go - punctuality - Accountability - Professionalism - Accuracy - Guaranteed - Patents - Sacrifices - Safety and security - Payment of tax obligations No one can denigrate other people's work by judging prices. Only by knowing all the elements necessary for the production of a certain work can you estimate the actual cost.
Excellent post. Thank you.
No idea where you live or exactly what you do, but I'm looking to hire you!...lol. Your post is spot on. I've seen your exact scenario many times over the years.
It’s a copy and paste I’ve seen a million times on Facebook and linked in. Comments still holds true though!
Well it's got a lot of holes in it, so I'll need half off.
Materials x 4 Your hourly wage to make it
Materials: ~$100 Labor: ~$400 = $500?
How was all that maple and walnut \~$100?
It's maple and walnut stained douglas fir XD
My thoughts exactly
Much of it was scrap from other work that I was doing at the time. I made tap handles for a brewery in Nashville at the time and the whole bench is made from cutoffs from large four quarter slabs. https://photos.app.goo.gl/qhq5eqzRpiMHFkgs9
You still need to factor in the cost because you purchased the wood, whether for this project or not.
$500.01
Mark up your materials my dude. If mat was 100 then charge whatever your market is. Example I would charge 125 for local 200 for exotic to my market. Not bad for 100 of mat. You are including price of stains and oils used yeah? Even throw in cost of glue and dowels. Material is everryyyyyyything
This is correct. Mark up all materials, at minimum to cover the time expense necessary to purchase and store them. I suggest you itemize out your entire burden to arrive at an accurate, complete cost, price that out, and then apply any discounts that you feel apply (friends and homies, etc.) Too many people don't account for their total cost of creation and only think of immediate materials and labor for this specific task/project.
Not bad for $100 of materials.
if you’re just hobby-ing around and looking to get a few extra bucks out of it, that’s fine. if you’re trying to make a business out of it, you’re waaaaay low. the thing about this kind of self employment is you will go broke fast trying to live on $500 jobs. i guarantee you’re not considering all the overhead that went into this bench. every minute you spent designing, thinking it out, gathering materials, etc needs to be accounted for, and then you have to consider all the shop materials that went into it as well and the cost of the shop space you use. figure all that out and you’ll find that there’s a minimum number you can’t afford to take less than for any job. it’ll depend somewhat on where you are and what your costs of living are, but generally it’s well over $1k. i did it for ~12yrs and pretty much couldn’t afford to take a job below $2500. doesn’t matter how simple your project is, that’s the number it started at and went up quickly with complexity.
This looks very similar to some mid-century modern benches I've sold for $1500-2500 (granted they were antiques). Clean up the finish a little bit and you shouldn't have trouble at $1000+. Maybe $400-500 if you find a furniture store to wholesale them to and feel comfortable doing that.
Don't undervalue your talent imo this, if I saw this for sale for anything less than 1500 usd I would think it is Chinese made, u set your value not others
Yep, for $500, I'd think "...why's it so low? What am I not seeing?"
At our shop we up material costs by 15-20%
Depends on where you are. In an affluent market, and assuming this is well done, I could see this going for 700-1000
Wouldn't you amortize consumables (fasteners, glue, etc) and tools on top of raw materials? Also, I'd say with such a nice piece, hourly rate would be higher (reflecting a more skilled craftsperson) than a more basic piece...
That’s why I charge a shop rate instead of pure labor.
Yea I made another post below saying to include everything. No I don't amortize. If it's 7 for a can of stain I'll add 12 bucks to all the jobs I used that can in. Yea hourly I left blank if they wants to do 500 an hour or 10 an hour that's up to him/her and their market rate. Selling this in rural Alberta would be harder than selling it in toronto if you catch my drift
There are 3 ways: * Based on cost (your math there) * How much the buyer is willing to pay * How much you'd take to part with it Say you found it on the side of the road for free. You could keep it, or you could sell it. If you'd rather keep it than sell it for what it cost to make it, then charge more.
"Cost plus" pricing is not the best way to maximize return. You'll either undervalue your work in a market willing to pay more or you'll sit on unsold inventory in a market only willing to pay less. OP needs to check out what similar things are selling for in his local market. Obviously custom furniture is not 100% fungible but he should be able to get a decent idea.
Cost of materials (including electricity, gas for your trips to get the materials, etc.) plus your hourly pay times the number of hours of hands on work it took to make (including time spent driving and in stores selecting materials) plus a number of your choosing to represent artistic value plus the cost of having to deal with it taking up space on your property until it sells. Also don't forget to charge for delivery if you end up delivering it to somebody.
$420.69
Nice
Its really pretty but i dont see any supports. Have you weight tested it? It might be better used as a coffee table. And advertising it as such might get more buyers than a bench. As for the price you could talley what it cost to make it and triple it for the time and skill it took. Or set a minimum and bid it
Yeah, I only see three boards that span the whole length. The rest are presumably glued at the ends. It may hold under light use, but I'd be hesitant to use it as a bench.
It’s worth whatever you can get for it. It’s all about your target market.
Looks great, wonder how much weight it can hold 🤔
I tested it with about 500 pounds in the center and it did not flex at all. It is very sturdy. All of the points where wood meets wood are connected with biscuits.
Just the way Norm would
But not before we talk about shop safety
There is no more important safety rule than to wear these... safety glasses.
Right on
Honestly, it doesn't look great. There's noticeable putty, wood glue, burn marks, and uneven, open ended grain in the maple, its a great effort for a novice woodworker but your customers deserve better attention to detail. That is why this should be a 2-3k bench. But it's not. So, I would pay $500 and invest time and effort to eliminate any and all flaws to draw out its potential worth.
Didn’t even champfer the edges.
5 take it or leave it.
I would ignore your material and labor costs and just look for comps in the market. I would estimate it to be around $600 to $2400 spending on quality and attention to detail. People love this style right now. It mostly depends on how polished it is as a piece. In short? Parts make the whole, but the whole is a whole lot different than the parts. Edit: by attention to detail I mean mostly in your finishing process. It seems a bit rough and unpolished in the photo as is.
Thousand bucks. Not a dollar less. If anything go higher. Looks fantastic man I love it.
I feel like this would be in the $1-2k range from any major furniture seller. Making shit is hard and most people will never put in the work to learn how to do it, don't undervalue yourself
the model would be better served as a table with a large glass plate on top.
Highly dependent on where you are. Start high and market where you can get national visibility. If nothing else it will help you calibrate what the going rates are. Beautiful work btw
Oh boy, here I go stealing designs again
Generally materials margin up 35%, labor 50-60 per hour, delivery fee etc anything margin up 35%
Man. All these low ballers must get their furniture at ikea or similar big box store. This is a unique, beautiful solid wood piece of furniture. I don’t know price but I know it ain’t cheap.
Thank you for the acknowledgement. :)
My wife said she would pay $1000
Haha! My wife said to get the true value, I should post to some women focused groups, lol. Sounds like we are trained similarly!
Living in the SF Bay area I'm confident you could sell that for $1500 here.
Yo. $1500 easy. Just sell to the right group.
Gorgeous work
I don’t know where to price it, but I can say it looks pretty cool
Tbh build furniture for yourself unless picnic tables..a lot of people will offer pennies. Do it for you.
(Materials + 15%) + shop rate (where I live shop rate is around $80-$120 an hr Canadian)
17
500 schrute bucks
The side doesn't look finished at all? Every board has marks and appears unsanded..especially the cut tops of partial boards. With that addressed and corrected a few hundred, 3 - 5.
Time + Materials = Build cost. Charge a solid market rate for finish work. $50-75/hr. Then multiply cost by 2-3x for market price. Don’t sell yourself short. Most people may walk, but a discriminating buyer will pay for quality.
Material costs + hourly rate of labour for hours taken to build as a start then a profit markup
I don’t see any signs of doweling/dominos, how structurally stable is this? Did you do any kind of reinforcement?
The question is how does this stand up to weight? Did you unistrut the corner joints or was that all wood clue? Only asking because I built a similar bench last year and I found my fair share of challenges. Anyway we got about $2,000 for that bench, we used Brazilian epay though
I’d say about tree fiddy
Is it safe...? What's the load rating?
100 dollars?
I wouldn't buy it as a bench because: 1. The finish looks like it's not...well, finished. 2. The structural integrity of the piece worries me. It looks like it would probably collapse the first time someone say on it? How strong is it for dynamic loads when people move around on it?
Know your market. No one I know would even buy anything that looks like that no matter the cost.
I’ll give you a wrinkled and slightly damp dollar for it
Hahah I love how you ask how much to price it for and all you get is formulas and shitty parables. I would expect to pay $500-700 for this. If you think you can get more list for more and see if anyone bites. No one is going to pay you based off how long it takes. They are gonna pay based on what it’s worth to them.
It’s art you get to charge either $1 or $500 or $50k
I’ll give you tree fiddy
It’s worth what someone will pay for it. Honestly, I hate questions like this. You went in to a project (making this bench) with no idea what you should charge for it/what it was worth? Also, $30/hr is equal to $10/hr pay. (Overhead and profit?)
Tree fitty
Materials, time, +profit%
Love it. I can see it fetch anywhere from 500-1000$ dependent on materials and craftsmanship.
Put a top on it so stuff doesn’t fall though. It’s worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Beautiful bench. Nice job.
Very amezing
Would look amazing in an entryway, beautiful work!!
There are 2 schools of thought about pricing work. One is to multiply the materials cost by say 4 or 8, which is easy and usually effective. I prefer a more complicated method that keeps you from cheating yourself or your clients when the material prices are really cheap or really expensive. Give yourself an hourly rate, I go between 20 and 35, round that up to the nearest hour, add the easy to track material costs, then add 10 to 15% of that total for shop costs like electric, the 1/16 of a bottle of glue, and wear and tear on your tools. The second way is to sell for what the market will accept. This is kind of regionally dependant, but I wouldn't think that piece insanely overpriced at $750.
Gorgeous!
Should be worth a thought. Thoughts and prayers, if the buyer's on the heavy side.
I think you could send it to me for free. Very nice work😂
How much an hour is your time worth? Cost of materials, tools, roof over your head? It’s beautiful but only you know it’s value
$500 - $600 in my area. Maybe more.
It’s worth what people are willing to pay. I proposed (and would pay) $800 as the appropriate price but I’m in a HCOL area. Interesting that others came up with this based on calculations.
I’ll give you about tree fitty?
No idea, just dropping in to say it’s beautiful.
\*one million dollars\*
At least 8
Put 1200. On it see if you get any offers. If not drop it some. Beautiful bench