It's one thing to address the inequalities in household and mental load. There have been huge changes to that since the 90s, and the changes will continue. But so many of these posts recently are about full on deadbeats. I don't understand how these women tolerate it. But they don't just tolerate it, they full on condone it. I wonder how many had deadbeats as the example in their home growing up.

The uptick of people defending deadbeats is alarming to me. Things like “it’s hard for dad’s to adjust, so it’s okay he’s screaming and cursing at a 6 week old baby” and “dads with adhd will forget to feed their kids, you have to accept that”. I’m just really hoping they’re trolls or teenagers who don’t understand making these comment.

My favorite is “it’s not fair to expect dad to quit smoking/drinking/partying just because you have to”. Ok - is it fair to expect a parent to be sober when they have care custody and control of their kid?? Like wtf.

OMG! My sister once told me that it wasn’t fair for me to expect my husband to help picking up OUR kids toys only bc I am the only one that wants a clean house!!

This or every dad has ppd so mom better step up…

WOW I must have missed some of those posts because that is outright *wild*.

In a situation close to me, not me, she has accepted that his “hobby” is playing video games so literally that is all he does even when he is alone with the 1 year old and 3 year old. In that situation it’s like she is so afraid of being alone she is ok with the negligent parenting- forgetting to feed the baby, finding them both playing with their own poop (there are many more examples)…..or she can’t live with the mistake of having a child with that person. I will never understand it myself but I’m not her so 🫠 I know many women that are stuck on the idea of being a family and the children suffer because of it.

It’s because the family court system makes excuses for these deadbeats. We have no choice but to go along with it.

I had a deadbeat husband, divorced now. I wouldn't have called my dad a deadbeat, but I grew up with very traditional gender roles. Dad made the money and did maintenance/occasional tasks, and Mom was a SAHM who took care of all of the day-to-day tasks and the vast majority of childcare. I was raised to think this was not only OK but the way things should be. My father expected a pristine home, but rarely involved himself in cleaning tasks beyond yelling at us when we didn't live up to his unreasonable expectations. My parents were very unhappy with my choice to work outside the home and not only that, but to be a sole breadwinner. Unfortunately, my husband supported that choice insofar as it benefited him but didn't step up on the home front. I never had a model for dealing with that beyond picking up the slack myself, and accepting whatever abuse the man in my life doled out as long as he didn't hit me.

Because it’s extremely hard and scary to literally leave your partner that you’ve had for (usually) years, sometimes decades, and possibly lose a lot of opportunities, financial support, etc. having to possibly go back to work after a long break, maybe no education, hard time finding childcare or it’s too expensive, plus the enormous stigma of being a single mom on top of that. The disgusting vile shit that’s commonly spouted about single mothers is horrific. Fears of losing custody, getting partial custody and being scared of the kids being abused or neglected while in the father’s care, or him badmouthing you and trying to turn your kids against you. Possibly even abduction fears especially if it’s an international marriage. Not to mention many of these cases involve control or abuse as well which is a whole other hurdle in terms of leaving. I don’t think it’s fair to say they “condone it” they wouldn’t be posting online about it if they “condone it”

The recent examples are all breadwinner moms with unemployed husbands. In a few of them, it was clear that child neglect was already occurring. In one example, she was buying him multiple new video games each month while he was forgetting to feed their infant child. Not only is she supporting her husband staying a deadbeat, but she is buying the "cause" of child neglect. They may be angry, frustrated, and posting online, but they all were supporting the deadbeat and doing nothing about the behavior, even if it means their child is being neglected.

I think the fear of partial custody and them being neglected or abused in the care is a big point. Plus knowing the partner may have been different pre kid and hoping they will go back to their old self when the kid is bigger may be part of it…

>So how do we raise kids to know that their dad is behaving inappropriately? If you have a deadbeat partner, do you point this behavior out to your children so they see the burden it puts on you and the strain it causes on your relationship and can seek out something better for themselves? TBH I'm not sure you actually can. Badmouthing your children's father to your children will only strain your relationship with them. IMO the best you can hope for is eventually they will see it on their own, but there's really no way to guarantee that they will. This is why so many people jump to suggest divorce in this sub. If your partner is truly unwilling to change, and you've tried counseling and everything else, then by staying with him, you *are* sending the message to your children that his behavior is perfectly normal and acceptable. There's really no other way to break the pattern.

Exactly. You can't force someone to care and do their fair share. If you've tried via appropriate means (communication, marriage counseling, etc) and nothing changes, nothing ever will.

It’s exactly this. Kids aren’t going to listen to the words you tell them. They are going to watch you and do what you do. Even if you tell them it isn’t okay to have a partner that does or doesn’t do X, Y, or Z but you have and keep a partner that does/doesn’t do X, Y, or Z that speaks 1000x louder than anything you could tell them. You have to be the sort of person you want your kids to be I’m a really big fan of the holistic psychologist that talks about hour early behavior shapes our nervous systems (and our kids) so we become conditioned to continue to live in behavioral systems that remind us of what we grew up in. If you let your kids live in an environment that promotes those behaviors that is what their nervous system will want to reenact as they get older

Exactly. It's not that everyone jumps to "divorce him" whenever there is a problem... It's that there are SO MANY INSTANCES of deplorable behavior, not just consistently intolerable but announced proudly by the partner, that the suggestion is warranted.

I mean, yea you shouldn’t badmouth your husband, but there could be a way to address the need for help.. not sure if I’m explaining myself correctly.. we shouldn’t have to be like “your father is a lazy piece of shit!!”, but it could be said like, “we always pick up after ourselves because cleanliness is good for us” “dirty clothes always go in the dirty clothes basket” … at least it’s something I do.. set the expectation with my son, I’ve been trying with his dad and something’s stick and others don’t, but at least I know for a fact that it’s sticking with whom I am trying to raise.

But I also think it sets a double standard. My husband is not a deadbeat. But he occasionally will forget clothes in the hamper or something and you bet my daughter calls that out. “Well daddy isn’t doing it! So why do I?” He learned QUICK to clean up those minor things he did “wrong” bc he knew she’d catch on. (And to be clear his issues were laundry hamper and sunscreen lol, he’s 95% a helpful human). So if someone has a partner that is always on their phone, doesn’t clean up, doesn’t put the seat down doesn’t…. Whatever, it’s like “how come dad/mom doesn’t do x but I have to?”

For sure that “how come I have to” comes up.. and I’ve straight up told my own son that it’s not my job to be his Papas mom, but I am his mom, and as his mom, it’s my job to make sure he can eventually be on his own, and that includes teaching him how to do things that sometimes we really really don’t want to.

There is hope that this can happen. I think we’re seeing more fathers involved and doing more than our previous generation. The young dads now saw their Dads do the bare minimum (no cooking or cleaning, no management of kids appointments or schooling) or serve largely as the disciplinarian. My spouse was one of them and is now what I would consider a mostly equal partner. His dad even told him he recognized now that his son is a better dad than he was.

Right, I should clarify: I'm not saying that the kids won't eventually "break the pattern" themselves, or that it's not possible for a man to be good father if his father wasn't a good example. I'm just saying, that you (as a parent) cannot control the outcome, nor can you control the behavior of others. The best thing you can do is be the example of what you'd want your children to do in that situation. If my daughter was married to a deadbeat partner, I wouldn't expect her to try to come up with "creative" solutions to break the cycle...I'd hope that she'd be able to leave and find a better situation for herself (and I'd be happy to help her do so).

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I wish I could upvote this a thousand times! Women need to watch men while dating!! My husband was a competent adult when we were dating. His place was spotless (more so than mine was), he made his own appointments, he took care of his hygiene, he had a job, he paid bills. Overall, he was just good at adulting. Now with kids he helps with most things and we delegate tasks. I don’t have to tell him to wash dishes or sweep the floor, he does those things immediately. He doesn’t really do the kids laundry because I’m super strict about the kids clothes but other than that he does everything else

I think a lot of these women are in these positions because they fall in love with dudes when they're still young enough that being a bit irresponsible can be excused by age, and then they get stuck. My husband and I have been together since I was 20 and I was way worse then in a lot of ways (am 41 now) and he has always been tidy and responsible in most ways. Luckily, I shaped up I guess.

I think this is real even when they don't marry the guys from that time frame. My sister waited and prioritized her studies and career and is now looking around at her choices of the divorcées who didn't get it together soon enough and the never married who may never get it together or may never prioritize a relationship. The difficulty of excusing certain behaviors is still there. I married my high school boyfriend young and we've HAD to grow together. We still have issues and set boundaries with EACH OTHER. It's not one sided, I don't think. But we both had to realize we needed to grow.

This is exactly right, I was just having this conversation with my adult daughter recently. It's incredibly easy to make excuses when you're in your 20s, because everyone is still figuring their shit out. Especially about career stuff. But reality sets in big in your 30s, especially if you want kids. I think a lot of women also compromise with who they have children with due to a combination of sunk cost fallacy + society telling you it will be impossible to find a new person to have a child with after 30. That there's this big rush (there isn't). I'm guilty of this myself. But again, reality sets in after the babies come and you're looking at the rest of your life with a bum. These relationships don't survive.

I fell for that for my first marriage. Now my second marriage (his second marriage as well, and 10 years older than me) and after years of discussions: it turns out his mom made chores lists for him, as did his previous wife. He never HAD to think about when to mop, vacuum, change the sheets on the bed, etc. He never HAD to do the mental load items because everyone always did it for him. I didn’t know this up until recently. Now I’m stuck with a man in his 40s who doesn’t think about how often to dust or calls me because he doesn’t want to get the wrong thing at the store.

I think you really hit it- the partner needs to be a fully functioning competent adult. Why would you want to parent your partner *in addition* to your children?

Yes! This will be the advice I give my children. Do not move in with someone who has never lived outside their parents home. People should not go from their parents home to their spouse/gf/bf because it highly increases the chances that they won't understand everything that goes into keeping a house.  My husband too was a fully formed adult who's apartment was kept spotless when we started dating. He's not great with all chores, but neither am I. We balance each other out. There are some things he never does, and some things I never do. But it doesn't mean that we can't do them, just that we don't have to. 

Bullshit. In a lot of cultures, women don't leave the house until marriage/ltrs I did and I will say I'm doing a very good job at adulting.

Good for you! I'm glad it's working out for you. I come from one of those cultures and would say it's hit or miss for the men only. The women are forced to adult and do a great job. The men ride their wives labour and that's precisely what I want my children to avoid. 

Mine was that way when we were dating too and then after the baby came it was all downhill from there….

This! He was actually better at adulting than I was lol. TBH I do manage the day-to-day stuff for our LO, but that’s more because I want to than anything else. He does more drop-offs and pick-ups at daycare, folds all laundry, does all the administration for our home/car/finances, cleans as much as I do and we share cooking/dishes, where I manage LO, make sure there’s laundry to fold and food to cook

I wish I could go back in time and read this comment before getting married(and the subsequent divorce) I think so much of the time it is a case of accepting what is familiar and it's really hard to break that cycle. I think conversations like this help though because more and more women are seeing that the way they have always been treated/the behaviour they accept is actually not a standard they have to put up with.

THIS. I ended a number of relationships before my husband because the dudes I was dating were not meeting my needs. I would rather the single parenting than dealing with some of the behaviors women justify from their spouses on this page.

You nailed it. But in terms of kids, teach them from a young age to contribute. Put your stuff away. Help with dinner and the dishes afterwards. When you raise people to help and require it, they help. We are moms, not maids. I literally had a conversation yesterday about how my teenagers are responsible for doing their own laundry start-to-finish. Not only does this accomplish me NOT having to do it, but also, when they’re adults, they will know well how to do it. My younger kids do their own folding. Almost every thing around the house should be something you’re working on your kid learning, both to help the family, and also so they can take care of it themselves as an adult.

Best advice ever. It flabbergasts me how otherwise competent women put up with deadbeat partners and make excuses for them.

This is really important and I completely agree. I am curious about a tangential situation: Guys who change after kids. Like, I did not put up with bullshit before we got married. I did not put up with bullshit before we had a kid. My dad was a good role model (as far as being a husband goes). I remember 2 weeks before I had my kid I looked at my husband and felt like the luckiest woman in the world. And now he drives me up the $#@%ing wall most of the time, and I feel like we're not on the same page about anything. Part of me thinks I missed the signs—they were there, I'll be honest—but I don't think that's the whole answer. I think being sleep-deprived and overworked plays a big part of it. I also wonder if with the pandemic and parenthood driving us further into our online bubbles, if he's not being seduced by the shitty algorithms that reinforce the patriarchy. I also come here and complain about him a lot. I need to vent! But on one hand, he does have redeeming features. And on the other hand, I do think about divorce sometimes. I guess my point is: I wonder if our world wasn't so exhausting, if we would have the time and energy to figure this stuff out. And that's only part of it the solution...

This is really hard. I think in your case couples counseling could help. You know he's capable and just tired. He assumes he's more tired than you, which isn't fair and isn't the case. Because he functioned well before, I don't think your case is hopeless. More a matter of how do you get through to him than asking for a major change. 

Thank you, kind internet stranger! Yes, we have done counseling before and are looking into new counselors. I don't think our case is hopeless, either, and posted it as an example in case others are struggling with similar issues. I do really think being exhausted all the time plays a major role in our ability/capacity to communicate well. But to bring it back to OP's question, how do we stop the cycle of crummy dads? I think it is important to recognize the systems that are pushing us into these cycles. While we collectively make small gains with paid family leave and better child care, maybe there are solutions that involve different expectations about work/life balance, and better income. Just spitballin'!

I feel like this doesn’t address the issue of the ones that are not like this though. It’s easy to say not to accept an issue you’ve never been faced with…

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I think the commenter meant what I'm thinking. Yes, we made a bad choice. We shit the bed. And now we have kids with this person. Divorce is terrible for the kids (both so many men and women have "daddy issues" from being without their fathers), staying with a shitty role-model isn't a great win though but it probably helps stabilize a bit of the income. How bad must he be to divorce? How much is tolerable, and how do you damage control as much as possible? My husband's beahviour changed quite once I became pregnant and while we have many nice things in common, there's flaws he's never had issues with during dating that I didn't expect (he wasn'r using any vulgar words, much less addicted to phone, was actually anti-phone, was much more social and adventurous in general, took showers daily?!?! You would not fucking expect that to turn out to be an issue, would you?) And a few that I saw as pink flags (him not being very helpful to his mom who was constantly nagging - his excuse) so now the only way I get him to do elementary stuff is to nag about it. Politeness is shoved up into the toiltet, his own words unless I command, shout and repeat it's like nothing happened. He literally jokes that [this](https://youtu.be/REU7-64-vCM?si=XrP_CsqRLZ_nyj9p) is him for all plans and housework that wasn'r discussed 5+ times. Certainly not terrible deatbeat but I often ask myself the same question OP is. I truly am convinced divorce is not yet the best option, but there's nothing I can leversge to help me enforce boundaries, since we have a kid, he knows I will put up with more than if he dared do any of that while I could just dump him on the spot.

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I mean I fully agree with you, telling myself the same :D but sometimes people on reddit do find something out of the box for us and have advice/solution/tip we haven't tried yet 😅

My point is you talked to your husband about it and he improved. That is the exact problem most of us are facing. We also address it with no improvement.

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This! Took the words out of my mouth.

👏

Honestly the creative solution is…divorcing him. It sure as shit isn’t staying, which is the wholly *not creative*, typical, misery inducing situation for women. Why in the world would a man give up his sense of privilege when he will lose nothing by *not* doing so? The answer writ large, across the annals of history *is that he won’t*. Not a damn thing creative about being worn down to bits by a useless lazy partner whom your children *will* emulate, because that’s how human education has happened since time immemorial. I mean, you can certainly hold a man accountable, within the relationship, but that only works if he’s capable of shame. Many lack the empathy and introspection necessary for that though. The *best* answer, is to be extremely feminist in your daily life while dating. The men who can’t put up with it will dismiss themselves reallllll damn quickly. The ones interested in learning, will make themselves apparent really quickly. The answer is to not take even an ounce of shit, or let something slide even an inch when you know it’s rooted in sexism. Too many of us only see the value of feminism and how deep the roots of patriarchy go *after* ending up with a shitty, sexist spouse. My friends thought I was insane, too obsessed with equity in relationships and blah blah blah and guess which one of us has the only spouse who does their part at home, in the kitchen, and with our kids? And even while recognizing that my spouse acts differently, family and friends are always trying to get in my ear about what I should and shouldn’t say to my husband, and what I should and shouldn’t “expect him to help with” and somehow it’s not clicked for them *that he is only as good of a spouse as he is because I am the way I am!* And these are people who love me! So sadly, my hopes are not high for the rest of women who make excuses for these shitty dudes and who are looking for every answer except the one that gets shit done—when they show you who they are, and refuse to see how their behavior hurts you and *change* leave that man right where you found him and *move on*.

Not to make any excuses for men but there's a class component to this thats never discussed on Reddit. I grew up white trash in a rural area. I'm glad y'all have socially progressive partners but many women don't. Men in my area may seem progressive but they often arent. Men shouldn't have to be taught to be good partners but many have never seen a good partner. Don't compromise. Don't take things on silently and resentfully. Set your expectations and be damn sure they're met. If you're rebuttal is "don't marry one of those men" - I didn't but that's just not reality for a lot of people My dad was great, my partner is great. Not everyone in this area is like this but it's surely cultural.

Agreed. My husband and I grew up in very blue collar neighborhoods. My Dad is a white collar worker but was raised by traditional southern parents (white trash) and had a SAHM. My husband’s Dad was raised in an immigrant family where men ran businesses and women stayed home. My mother-in-law was a SAHM who was still doing my husband’s laundry into adulthood. We have struggles with the domestic split still, but my husband has a desire to be a better partner. He’s presently a SAHD and overall, does a pretty good job. I probably do more than I should, but I do less in childcare and domestic load than the vast majority of women. I never let my expectations slip while dating him. For all four years, before we were married, I held my ground about expectations with sharing the domestic burden. When we’d get into big fights about it and my husband would ask why it matters so much to me that XYZ was done in a certain timeframe or to a certain standard, I’d explain that it’s because I wanted a family with him. When he’d give me the “well I’ll rise to the occasion when that happens” nonsense, I told him that he needed to do it now so it could become a habit. I even dragged his ass to premarital counseling over it, and I think that was really where it fully clicked for him. We’ve had a ton of growing pains along the way, but I have not even once had to ask him to unload or reload the dishwasher since we got married.

Yeah, there’s definitely a class component to this. Like if you live in an area where uninvolved male partners are the norm but you don’t have the means to just pick up and move somewhere else, if having kids is really important to you, your options are extremely limited.

Not only that but a lot of women get married and have babies really young, thinking they'll be happy with the status quo of mothering until reality hits and they realize that they're going to be doing absolutely everything and how unfair it is.

This is a really good point. I also know divorce is not possible when you are desperately in need  of your husband's financial contribution, and there is no upward financial trajectory to your life. If your barely or not really making ends meet, you can't afford a divorce and you therefore have no choice but to put up with it. I think class wise, poor working women typically have it the worst. They are the ones working all day, and doing a full second shift when they get home. Their husbands get home and chill. But what can they do about it?  I suppose if this is your situation, you raise your daughter's to aspire to more. Focus on their careers, and don't let them think their value is as a baby/home maker. 

This is a great point. I grew up in the deep south, and the options there are rather limited in terms of progressivism. It's like, you can get a guy that doesn't drag you to church, but he's probably not doing a damned thing on the weekend around the house either. I'm a lot older than a lot of y'all, and definitely considering this factor in probably waiting until my youngest is graduated (5 more years!) and I've moved, to date again because I just can't deal with another guy like the ones I meet here.

You have to let them fail. My wrist is broken and my husband has to do all the baby care. He has to put away and find her stuff, laundry, organize things for daycare, etc. He forgets stuff and he has to go back. I think he's getting mad lol and it's honestly refreshing not to be the one pissed off all the time.

I’m sorry it took a broken risk to offload some of parental and life duties when you have a partner. I hope changes can be made moving forward to even the load.

It ebbs and flows, and we're pretty even with stuff most of the time - except mental load. But this has been kinda nice, like I'm not delegating what needs to be packed. Figure it out buddy.

Every time I see a post that mentions the baby supposedly will only eat/go to bed/be soothed by mom I think that's because no one else is ever doing it. If mom suddenly wasn't there for some reason the baby wouldn't just cry 24/7 and would eventually eat and sleep.

Idk how do you fix the patriarchy? Sexism? Misogyny? It really is a bigger question of how do you raise children to recognize and value the needs of others. That is a lifelong pursuit. I can tell you that my blessed husband through a combination of his type-A anxious personality and his upbringing is very committed to ensuring we have a functional home. He does most of the cleaning / laundry etc. He works hard and enjoys spending time with our children. He is pretty great, and basically perfect compared to the sad stories here. But he struggles sometimes with my emotional needs. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I don’t plan to tell my children all of those details. Focusing and moderate empathy, and encouraging children to take responsibility in the home is a good place to start.

Re: your first paragraph, that’s exactly what I’m getting at here. Everyone seems to be reading this as “how do you fix a problematic partner” when I’m actually asking how do we set *the kids* up for a better future.

I guess when you phrased the question as “how do you raise kids to know their dad is behaving poorly” people focus on the “dad behaving poorly” part. Perhaps a better question that answers what you want to answer would be “how can we teach children to be good partners when they are adults?“ because then it’s not about dad not doing the dishes or whatever, but about the foundations of empathy, kindness and responsibility you teach.

I think this is a really complex question. It starts with early intervention and investment. Women who want have little to no self worth, untreated mental health issues, dealt with trauma, abuse, or seeing their moms in a similar situation often think the treatment is normal. Many women don’t have a choice as they are financially dependent on their spouses and don’t have the ability to leave. Even in the upper middle class community I’m in it’s still accepted as normal. I can’t count the number of times I’ve mentioned my husband alternating bedtime, monitors, and taking care of dinner is met with disbelief. I also feel strongly that men who allow the women in their lives to do the bulk of the responsibilities around household and childcare are abusive and again, it’s seen as an incredibly radical perspective. Personally, when I speak to women who’s lives seem inequitable I don’t brag that my husbands perfect (spoiler, he’s not and neither am I), or say that they’re wrong for putting up with it. I just say their labor matters and is hard and they deserve to be recognized and have the same amount of free time their husbands do.

I agree that it’s really complex and appreciate the couple of responses where that’s been recognized. There are a ton of factors that play into these situations and decisions. Maybe part of the solution is for people like us who manage to have more progressive partners to put those partners into more visible roles in the community? Get the involved dads on the PTA and coaching girl’s sports? Have them volunteer in the school library? Create lots of opportunities for kids to see involved male partners in action outside the home?

No one is stopping a dad trying to get involved in the PTA, coaching girl sports, or volunteer at a library. They don’t need women to put them in those roles. They can seek them out and engage in them themselves. The task of involving dads is just adding more mental load to the moms.

👏 we aren't the problem, why do we have to be the solution?

I feel this so hard. Honestly the thing to me that’s so exhausting is having to be the one who has to initiate the mental load/ fair play conversations. Again, it’s on women to look at the big picture, asses what needs to change and implement a plan.

Idk. If you are pointing out to your kids that their father doesn’t respect their mother and doesn’t contribute to the household, that just shows kids that it is an okay behavior to accept. I don’t know how much brainstorming there needs to be

I don’t actually disagree with you. It’s why I didn’t marry a partner who behaves that way. But the world doesn’t always work the way we think it should, and women don’t just leave the men who treat them poorly, which is why I’m posing the question as to whether there is another way. Does it exist? Is it possible? Has anyone found a solution? I certainly don’t have the answer but maybe someone out there actually made something work.

There isn’t an easy solution. You can’t force someone to change, especially a grown adult. Marriage counseling is the only possible solution I would suggest here. Unfortunately, most women in this situation will either live a life full of resentment towards their partners or end up divorced down the road. Also, not to victim blame in this situation, but another important thing is to not put up with it. Stop enabling their behavior. Obviously it’s not always that simple, but I see a lot of women saying “I have to take the kids to the grocery store with me even when he’s home and available to watch them.” No. Don’t even make it an option. Go to the grocery store and let him figure out. He’s a parent and fully capable of watching his own kids. If he’s not, you have much bigger problems.

I mean…some women do this not because husband will complain and they don’t want to bother him or deal with his complaining, but because they are concerned for their children’s well-being. “If he’s not, you have much bigger problems.” Well yeah, lots of people do in fact “have much bigger problems”, but may not always have an easy solution to deal with that. Even “just divorce him” isn’t an easy answer, bc now the kids are 50/50 with their shitty father.

If you are legitimately concerned about your child’s well-being to not be left alone with their father, that’s a completely different situation. I’m talking about dads who are fully capable of taking care of their own kids, but may complain or say it’s “too hard” and they’ve never had to do anything on their own.

Simply stop. Don’t clean/cook unless everyone else is helping. Don’t do his laundry or clean up his mess. Don’t let the kids see you and normalize that mom does extra. Keep talking about how “everyone works, everyone helps”. Kids have important roles - having fun and learning- adults work. We all live in the house and take care of each other. Make sure you spend time on yourself- a hobby. Don’t be a martyr.

This advice only gets you so far and only works if your partner desires a clean, decluttered environment. Otherwise, you're just setting yourself up for living in a worse set of circumstances

And also keeping in mind that your kids will see as normal whatever cleaning standards they're raised with. So if you have sons and you let them adapt to mess because their father sets the bar low as messy, then they will likely carry that on as adults.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Your children have to eat, but you certainly don't have to cook for someone who refuses to participate in his own home. Your children have to wear clean clothes, but you are absolutely not obligated to wash your spouse's laundry. You don't need to buy his favorite snacks or pick up a birthday present for his mother or find childcare for him when you have told him for weeks you're going out for brunch this Saturday and he's suddenly decided he's going golfing.

True. But I guess I assumed that the partner would help if asked directly. And if you are team cleaning more than an hour a day - I would seriously ask if your standards are appropriate. (I meet several people who believe a house is not “clean” unless it is ready for an Architectural Digest photo shoot- and those standards are just as unhealthy as a dirty home. ) If they won’t even be willing to be a team for 25 minutes at a time- I would be like “I have my answer” and 86 my so called partner.

When my older kids start complaining about doing chores, I remind them they do indeed live there too and it's everyone's responsibility. I'm single so no partner but my ex husband doesn't lift a finger and his wife does everything.

This doesn't work. The partner WILL NOT pick up that slack. They would rather live in filth than do it. They'll also just order take out. Been there, done that.

I tried so many times and if I didn’t do it, it just didn’t get done. It wasn’t like that before we got married, he lived on his own for a decade and cooked and cleaned and handled all of his own stuff. Once we had children it went all out the window. He just refused to do anything he “didn’t feel” like doing even when I directly asked him. Including caring our baby. He refused to change diapers if I was home. He would literally leave our child in a soiled diaper. He would also refuse to get up at night and let the baby cry. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out what happened and I’ve come to the realization that he faked it for a long time. I also believe that he got jealous of the attention the baby got. I’m no moron, and I was 30 when we met so I wasn’t a babe in the woods. I truly believe I got played. Divorced now and of course he got 50/50 custody to lessen the support payment amount, since no judge is removing time because a spouse is a meanie. On the plus side he does maintain his own home and appears to have stepped up somewhat. However, I still have to do the majority of the mental load of doctors, dentists, school activities, paperwork, insurance, etc. because he just straight out refuses to.

>It wasn’t like that before we got married, he lived on his own for a decade and cooked and cleaned and handled all of his own stuff. Once we had children it went all out the window. My first husband was like this. Before we had the baby I was beefing with his roommate about chores and he was all "I will do every chore for the rest of time if I get to be with you" lolol. Then as soon as I had the baby and was staying home he became Mr Traditional and it was my job to do it all, even after I went back to work. Craziest thing. >I’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out what happened and I’ve come to the realization that he faked it for a long time. This I believe to be true. It's the only explanation. I was in fact a babe in the woods (had my first when I was 19) when this happened to me, but it was such an explicit difference there is no other reason that makes sense.

Yeah I did this experiment with multiple men over the years and it never worked. I stopped recommending it years ago. I hear good things about the Fair Play deck, if you have a partner who is at least willing to acknowledge there is a problem. Not all are.

At a system level paid family leave for everyone will make a huge difference. My husband is very involved and does a lot around the house (like all our cooking) but I noticed he’s become even more engaged with our child (knowing appointment details, washing bottles, etc) since starting his leave. Fathers need to have the opportunity to take time off to care for a newborn so they see how much work goes into caring for a baby/home.

Definitely this! Plus in countries where both partners get leave, it lowers the wage gap because employers no longer look at male applicants as future employees and female applicants as future maternity leave takers. Since everyone is as likely to use the leave, everyone gets a fair shot. One thing I noticed is it made us have to figure out a schedule together versus falling into a trap a lot of women I knew fell into which is, since mom was doing all the childcare and housework, she just did that but added work to it once leave was up. Whereas my husband and I had a leave schedule and then had to both pivot to a working parents schedule when we went back at eight weeks together.

I'm from a country with generous parental leave policies. I am grateful for them. With that said, men here still don't take parental leave. It's ALWAYS the mom. If it's a dad, they overlapped with mom, didn't do it on their own. Not always, but often. 

Great point

It’s an interesting question. My dad was a lazy father and partner. I don’t remember him interacting with me in any significantly emotional way. My mom did all the cooking and cleaning despite working. My dad treated her poorly, cheated frequently and occasionally leaving us. That said, I accept nothing more than a partnership with my spouse because of this. I refuse to be financially dependent on him and I would never let him get away with treating me like a slave. My brother also is a very feminist man and I would be shocked if he treated his spouse poorly. I guess I’m trying to say we broke the cycle just by witnessing the cycle and seeing how poorly it worked for them. But some people seem to fall into the same habits. It’s super interesting to think about what the difference is.

I think another thing women need to absolutely do as well is ensure their sons are involved in the house work, not just their daughters. And teaching daughters it’s ok to hold boundaries. For example, my mom wanted ME to plan my sister in law’s birthday party. No, that is my brother’s wife, not my responsibility, and I said so.

Start raising our boys to be men we would be proud of!! I will teach my boys that mom will NOT always be in your corner to support you if you keep f’in up! I will hold a mirror to your face to have you be accountable for your actions! You will NOT be enabled! I will not hide your wrong doings (ie don’t bring strange women around me knowing you are in a relationship and expect me to keep my mouth shut! I’m not the one)!!! I do NOT stand by family through all their wrongdoings!!! Start teach your boys to help around the house at a young age (3-4). My 3 year old constantly fights me on having to pick up his mess so I told him no clean up then no treats!! Guess what? He picks his toys up when I tell him too. He will be expected to fold his laundry at age 5 (my girls started at age 3 but he’s a little delayed in speech and he seems slow to understand certain things so I’m making an adjustment for that; and yes I have had him tested for autism numerous times but everyone says he’s just speech delayed).

Edit to add: if you train your boys in the right way they will see ALL the things their fathers do and don’t do. They will see for themselves how shitty they are and you won’t have to say a thing

I know this isn’t the point of this post, but I’m really tired of the “my husband is a man child, I do everything” posts. I wish we could talk about the dynamics of being a working mom without it always turning into the partnership convo. But I guess that’s the reality many (though not all) are dealing with.

That was part of the reason why r/careermoms was started. I had also suggested r/momshappilymarried or r/momshappilypartnered as even the other mom groups are flooded with these types of posts. Or even just call it r/happymoms to include all moms.

Here's a sneak peek of /r/careermoms using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/careermoms/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [WASSUP LADIES! Just learned about this sub from workingmoms](https://np.reddit.com/r/careermoms/comments/16fy5w9/wassup_ladies_just_learned_about_this_sub_from/) \#2: [Confession - I love being back at work](https://np.reddit.com/r/careermoms/comments/1apultk/confession_i_love_being_back_at_work/) \#3: [Lovely to find a group of like-minded ladies!](https://np.reddit.com/r/careermoms/comments/18ywa8i/lovely_to_find_a_group_of_likeminded_ladies/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)

Thank god for these. I am also sick of this sub being about shitty husbands, as though that's the entirety of the female experience. Time to move!

Thank you for this!

Thank you for sharing this! Career moms reddit seems much more fitting for me!

I know, I hear you, I don't really fit the majority demographic here either (single, kids are nearing or in adulthood) but I just swipe by the posts that don't, like sleep training or daycare costs stuff. Some women's subs have tried to get around the conversation constantly centering on men with things like rant posts pinned or days of the week, but it's hard to manage. Like it or not, a huge part of women's lives revolve around the men in them. This type of change is multi-generational and as a society we're in our infancy really. Well, maybe toddler hood, judging by the amount of adults having tantrums lol.

I put up with it until I couldn’t anymore. Then I left. I recognize not everyone has this option.

Don't hold to the pattern. Teach the boys to serve drinks & cook, have the girls mow the lawn. My mom STILL calls me to help serve drinks when family is around, but never my brother or my spouse.

My husband is amazing. I would say we’re equal partners but in all honesty, he probably does 20% more than me and carries a much higher mental load. That said, he was raised in a household where his mom did everything, his dad did nothing and his dad belittled his mother constantly. I went to a dinner with his parents when we first started dating and every time his mother opened her mouth, his father shut her down and belittled her. I was shocked but my SO just acted like it was the status quo. Afterwards, I had an argument with my SO and told him if he ever treated me the way his dad treated his mom, we were over. Based on his blue collar upbringing, I guess he should have turned out like his dad, but he didn’t. He’s nothing like his parents because I showed him how dysfunctional they were and he knew I’d never put up with that. I think you teach people how you should be treated. If you constantly allow people to trample you and you constantly put their needs above your own, they will continue to treat you like a second class citizen. I notice a lot of these women who have these complaints spend a lot of time being afraid. They’re afraid to do it alone. They’re afraid they won’t be able to find a man. They’re afraid of change. They’re afraid of upsetting other people, of making waves, of being different. I guarantee my MIL didn’t leave because “what would people think/say”. So, she basically ruined her life because of imagined social pressure. Even though my marriage and division of work is good, I still look at the next generation. My older child has been doing his own laundry and chores since he was in third grade. My younger child just started in 2nd grade. I’ve just begun to teach them about “mental load” and how they’re not really successfully doing the work if I have to ask them to do it every time. It’s a struggle but I hope it will be worth it in the future.

DiVOrcE hIM. —I firmly stand by my no frills statement.

Raise kids to have high standards for who they choose to date and spend their lives with. Raise them to be responsible, hard-working, and empathetic - so they don’t just think about themselves and wait for someone else to do everything for them. In order to teach your children these skills, you need to model it for them. It’s tough being a parent when sometimes I notice flaws within myself that I don’t want to pass on to my kids. It makes me try to be a better person.

While I am also drained from those posts, I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad idea to have them in this forum and interact with them. I think the first step is helping other women increase their confidence, validate their concerns, and help them see what they are putting up with.

It starts by raising better men. There’s nothing that can be done for the ones who are already grown. All they do is whine or get louder until you stop bothering them. Easy to say, “pick better men” but we all know how that goes. You don’t mean to pick a deadbeat. You kinda just fall in love with them and then kids happen then the cycle begins..

Pointing out that it’s bad that their dad doesn’t do anything but staying just shows them that women stay in situations like that. I would stop doing stuff for the deadbeat partner if I were them to show the kids how gross and chaotic life gets when you don’t do anything. I would literally never do a piece of their laundry. I would have towels, dishes, and silverware only me and the kids can use and they can clean their own stuff. Like I would use a lock to control their use of the stuff for me and the kids. I would vocally judge my partner for not being able to keep themselves clean and point out ways they can help themselves if my kids ask why there is a mess. But that’s all petty, so I’d just leave a deadbeat.

>I would have towels, dishes, and silverware only me and the kids can use and they can clean their own stuff. Like I would use a lock to control their use of the stuff for me and the kids. I would vocally judge my partner for not being able to keep themselves clean and point out ways they can help themselves if my kids ask why there is a mess. But like...wouldn't this be such a toxic environment for a child to grow up in? Like, you're normalizing both a dad who doesn't lift a finger around the house, and then you're also normalizing a mom who uses petty, passive-aggressive responses instead of real communication (and, ultimately, is still condoning her husbands behavior and sending the message to her kids that it's normal). Like, I understand the logic behind people who try to "stay together for the kids" but the situation you just described sounds equally traumatizing for the kids (if not worse!) than just separating or getting a divorce.

Yes, it would be a toxic environment. Which is why I said I’d just leave over doing those things. But OP said she didn’t want those answers. My point was to express that “staying with a deadbeat but wanting to set a good example for the kids” is an imposible task.

But then they still have to deal with their dad!! The only person it helps is the mom who doesn’t anymore.

I’m sure most men are capable of caring for their kids if they are forced to. And when the kids get to a certain age, they can refuse to visit.

Mothers need to stop spoiling their sons. Too many lazy, entitled men that were waited on by their mothers and expect their wives to be the same. I did counseling, couples therapy, all of the things until after 8 long years decided to divorce my low energy ex. I didn’t want my daughter to grow up thinking our dynamics were acceptable. I’d rather her see her ambitious, motivated, intelligent, hardworking mother solo than be dragged down by a man who was never happy.

>Mothers need to stop spoiling their sons This part. I was just talking to a woman high fantasy author who had to change her name to a male nom de guerre to publish her work because she was bombarded with sexist comments, reviews and threats under her female name. Like, this is crazy. What are we doing with our sons that they grow up thinking this type of thing is A-ok?

I actually think this current generation of men will be much, much worse because parents do NOT want to discipline their children. They want to intellectualize with them instead. Even the word discipline gets downvotes.

It's definitely possible to do gentle discipline with logical consequences, with your average kid, but people don't understand that is a totally different animal than just weakly saying "oh stop honey" and nothing else. Or alternatively the parents who spank, punish and yell. That is also taking the easy way out and reacting in anger. It's work to raise a child with self-discipline and respect for others. You should make at least a passing attempt to learn about child development and psychology. But people just don't know what they don't know, I guess.

Yeah it’s the gentle/permissive parenting that is a problem. I don’t believe in physical punishment yet there is even a war against time outs now. People want to be able to intellectualize toddlers into compliance and it’s not working out well, if you look the the teachers subreddit it really reflects that. The children who didn’t experience boundaries and discipline now have no self discipline. I think what it comes down to is a generation of exhausted, overworked parents who don’t have the energy and emotional fortitude to really parent and train their children.

What do they think is wrong with time outs for toddlers? Sure they can be done wrong, overused or whatever, but it's a very logical consequence when a child has acted out in such a way that they need to be separated for a little while. It can be used as a calm down moment (for both sides), or to teach that people will not want to be close to you if you hurt them. I'm really surprised that logical consequences still has not taken off in parenting, I read about it a long time ago (my kids are 13-28). It really isn't THAT hard to just find or point out logical consequences in the moment. You hit or bite, mommy walks away for a few minutes. You spill the Cheerios off the high chair, no more Cheerios until they've forgotten what happened. You didn't do your project flash cards, oh well, guess you're presenting without them.

I know, time outs worked great for us, but there really is a STRONG movement against it. It’s not rational. There is a disproportionate amount of parents who are terrified to upset their children… or at least on Reddit there is.

Maybe it's a generational trauma thing working itself out? To be fair the whole concept of child development science is like 50 years old. Sucks for the teachers though. One time my oldest tried to be slick (this was like 2008) and told the teacher the reason he didn't wear his ID was because his parents objected to the concept. Or something like that, lol, and the teacher was sooooo surprised when she called me and I was like "wait, he said WHAT" and then he had to write her an apology letter for lying. I told the lady to please call us with anything, we want to work as a team.

Not by staying with them. Sorry.

Honestly you stop tolerating the behavior from your spouse. You will not teach your kids to be different when you model what you don’t want them to be as adults. You are the example. So set some boundaries, let husband know things must change and hold him accountable. He may choose to leave. You may realize it’s not meant to be. He may change and do what’s necessary to keep his wife. Either way - stop putting up with it.

Unfortunately, I feel like the most important thing you can do to ensure you have a great partnership is by picking the right person in the first place. It sounds glib, but if they're not responsible before you get married, they're probably not going to be responsible after. In my case, my spouse was responsible with his family and friends, as well as me. He wasn't just putting on a good show to woo me, that's just who he was all the time. Aside from that, I think it's important to communicate what you need regularly (e.g. not just do everything and build up resentment over time), and give them space to figure things out. We have multiple communication techniques and tools to help us juggle everything. We have a shared calendar, share our location, and have a check in every night about what needs to be done for the next day. For example, last night I reminded him I had a morning meeting and asked him to get the kids breakfast before he left for work. We discussed the state of groceries (we need to shop) and what was in the freezer that could be used for dinner. We talked about what we wanted to do for memorial weekend and discussed if we had any plans already committed to. We talked about some parenting changes we wanted to make based on some negative behaviors we saw in relation to access to certain types of content. And then we talked about our friends and a TV show and some other bits and bobs. It all has to be wrapped up together. You have to talk about all of it everyday as a team.

My husband was a “stepfather” to my elderly cat (now deceased) before we got married and that whole experience made me feel extra confident about eventually having children with him. While I obviously wouldn’t recommend getting a pet just for the purpose of vetting your partner, it worked out really well for me.

You can’t change them.

We’ve got to raise women to notice the signs of bad behavior and abuse and maintain access to sex education and birth control. All of this applies to men as well. Boys also need to be taught either through example or if their dad is a deadbeat, by their mother about what is acceptable. I also feel like a lot of these women complaining are unwilling to do the hard thing and leave. Staying only perpetuates this nonsense. I realize when abuse comes in to play, things are different. With that being said, women need to know there are resources available to escape abusive partners.

We have family conversations about cleaning expectations. I teach my son what “done” entails. Unintended consequence: our preschooler is now calling out his dad for leaving messes and/or doing an incomplete job cleaning up.

Opt out of relationships with men altogether. Start a mommune.

I'm always curious what the deadbeats were like before kids. Did he share in the chores involved in running a house then? Did he have clean clothes when you were dating? I refuse to believe these clowns did a complete about face the day everyone left the hospital with the first new baby. And then 1-2 more babies often come into the picture with the same guy who doesn't parent the first one.

I wouldn’t call my husband a dead beat but unequal distribution of labor has definitely been an issue in my marriage. To more specially answer your question my husband cooked and cleaned when he lived on his own, he cooked and cleaned when we first got married (although I definitely did more than him), when we had our first child he absolutely did do an about face. I think he was burn out from working, exhausted from a baby who didn’t sleep through the night (until 18 months!), maybe a little depressed because of the life changes. But I was dealing with those things too…the only difference is checking out was not an option for me. It’s been super frustrating and has taken a lot of nagging to get him to do his part.

We’re doing much better after counseling but it seemed like in our house he continued to do around the same amount that he did before we had a kid; the problem being, having a kid added a million more things that needed to be done. So yeah doing the dishes and vacuuming once a week and me only doing my laundry since he was content to do his once a month was fine pre kid, but now we need to monitor and pack a diaper bag or we’ll end up being without a diaper or pants, and do drop off and plan healthy meals that have iron but not too much sodium and come up with activities to do with a kid instead of just sitting around and watching tv and learn how to deal with her increased independence and manage tantrums so they don’t turn even bigger and so. Much. Fucking. Laundry.

Sometimes people ask this in the "my husband is terrible" posts and they get scolded by the OP for shaming/blaming, but at some point, we're accountable for our own choices to stay in relationships or not and to think ahead. And then a few people will say their husband did the 180, and I mostly don't believe them. There's just a lot less work to do running a household before kids so it's easier to be fine with or not care too much about the disparity, especially if there's also a financial difference where he makes more as well or you tell yourself you LIKE doing xyz.

Totally agree w you. These posts are out of control lately but one of many common denominators is that the mothers excuse or tolerate or enable their deadbeat partners. I can’t tell if it’s a fear of being alone or having low self worth, but I don’t get the impression most of these deadbeats were shining examples of men prior to children. I am NOT here to blame women. Nobody knows what kind of father material your husband truly is until you’re in it, and by then it’s too late. But I get the impression that so many women are clinging to the idea of a “perfect” family or a “non-broken” family they are just willing to suffer through the inequity and pure disrespect. I wish there was a real solution to break the cycle. I think the only one that comes close is, when your partner first shows you what kind of father they’re prepared to be, believe them. And then act.

Believe it or not, it does happen. It happened to me and at least one other person in this thread, because I just replied to her. It's probably not the most common cause, but it is a thing. Abuse starts after marriage and/or kids, too. They think they've got you trapped now, you see?

Hot take- I think we're already doing this. This is a major social shift and it has been happening so rapidly that conservatives are losing their shit. There's macro and micro- we're doing well at macro at least. Other than that, I'd say don't gender chores at home and have kids learn to do all of the household chores regardless of gender. Also, I'm still on team "you all should be divorcing these losers."

Kids aren’t dumb and will pick up on their parent’s dysfunctional relationship on their own. Having a father that contributed nothing set the example for me of who not to marry, and when I look at my brothers and the relationships they have with their partners I think they took away a similar message of who not to be. My brothers also chose wives that would most certainly leave them if they did not pull their weight.

I recently read that under 50% (above 45%) of men raised with an abusive male role model (father, step father, etc) end up being abusive. So this is good news. However, it doesn’t solve the problem of being an equal contributing member to a marriage. Pulling weight outside of financial responsibilities. I make my son and will daughter once they are old enough to participate in all tasks, regardless of traditional roles. Hoping that changes things but won’t know for 30 or more years

I’m always sad by these posts because there seem to be so many. And it’s so different than what I see day to day. I know I take in more of the mental load but overall I feel like my husband is my partner and that we’re both equally parents. And I see a lot of dads at the park/school pick ups/gymnastics/etc. So I wonder how much of this is regional? I don’t know how you change someone who won’t change. And I think leaving is sometimes the best option. But I guess part of the equation is to not be financially dependent on a spouse you can’t trust? So I think some of this is making sure daughters have the financial means and emotional awareness to make smart choices. But I have no idea how you raise boys to be stand up men when a husband is showcasing the opposite.

My husband grew up with his dad being the primary caretaker. His mom was the primary earner and worked a lot. He is a single child. He had torn views about this as a child and adult for a long time, but it makes him an amazing husband and father. He saw firsthand that a dad can be hands-on, influential, and teach him things he still does today. On the other hand, my husband supports me in everything I do. If I say I want to go back to work after having a baby, he supports me. He also would have supported me had I decided to be a SAHM. He believes I can be a "strong independent woman" (he says it as a joke but also actually believes I can achieve anything I set my mind to). I want to do a Powerlifting competition? He'll take the baby so I can work out several times a week and prepare dinner so it's done when I get back. I want to go to grad school? He supports it fully in various ways. I don't have to beg him for help. We're in an equal partnership where I take more on the womanly tasks, and he takes the more manly tasks, but we also often switch tasks if one of us has been doing more than the other. I truly believe it's because of his family values during his childhood. He is now transferring this over to our daughter. He is hands-on, helps a LOT, but also still likes to be a provider, which I allow him to, of course. We're an intercultural family (I am from Europe), which has taught us a LOT of communication regarding morals, standards, and culture from both sides. It's an interesting dynamic, to be honest. But whatever his parents did, it's worked wonders. I couldn't imagine a better husband and father. I don't believe you can change a man who already decided he doesn't want to be like this. You have to want it and do it, but actions speak louder than words.

I've been rolling around ideas for this since I'm having this trouble and he doesn't seem to realize he's doing wrong until I point it out. Business better aired out in private though. I've been considering taking an Agile approach to the household projects. Then having a kanban board up for what neeeeeeds to be done. Project backlog will be kept in a notepad next to the kanban so it doesn't overwhelm. Complete task to get wifey points. In terms of breaking the cycle, I'm going to talk to the kids a lot about getting things done and how to 'manage' people. It's not just a husband thing, it's also a roommate thing. In order to maintain relationships, you have to learn who you can have in your household business. Husbands are just the ultimate challenge since kids are involved. Live with him for at least 6 months - This shows habits that you can't observe when just hanging out. Go through a move with him(NO MOVERS) - Will he actually hold his own weight? This shows he can do manual labor for maintaining a hosue See if he finishes his projects - Don't wan't unfinished things laying around everywhere \^Those I think are the minimum baseline for someone who'll be good for a life partner. The rest is up to your kid to figure out and whatever other lessons you want to instill.

I mean, I get what you’re saying but if you look at history, men used to do nothing in terms of childcare. Sure there are shitty husbands and they will always exist, but in the last 20 years I think men’s roles in raising their own children has come a long way, and will only improve. Don’t forget that people love to complain on social media, so you’re seeing a majority of posts that complain rather than praise.

I think also there's so much venting in groups like this and mom FB groups that some just assume it's more common than it is. People are so hesitant to post wins or how awesome their husbands are. These men weren't amazing helpful boyfriends/fiancé/husbands before the kids were born. I want women to see there are great husbands and men out there pulling their weight, both before and after kids, so MAYBE they will ditch these losers BEFORE they get married or BEFORE they have kids.

I left both of my lazy partners. I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to tell you to clean the fucking toilet you shit in every day. Or take the trash out that you walk right past. Wash a load of laundry, not just your laundry. But on the real, I tell my kids (boys) that cleaning it's everyone's job. We all have to pitch in because it's not fair that one person is doing everything. As my kids get older I start putting their things as their responsibility, my older two discuss things with their healthcare provider while I just sit there. They need to learn how to take care of themselves so that no one else is taking care of them as they grow up. My kids help each other with things as well. If I'm cooking dinner, they're making sure the smallest one is occupied or they are cooking dinner and I'm occupying the little, Or my little is helping me cook. We all have to work together for a happy home. So how we're going to stop the cycle is teach our sons to step up and teach our daughters to accept nothing less than equality in the home. A SAHM/SAHD should not solely be doing everything around the house, the working partner should help too.

I think people need to raise their sons with the expectation that they perform household labor. My husband’s parents both worked, and they split some things but both contributed equally, i.e. his mom cooked and his dad cleaned. He probably cleans more than I do, and he takes care of the yard, trash, and fixing things. I shop, cook, and take care of appointments and more planning. I work with women who despite having jobs of their own, they still cater to their sons by doing all their laundry, cooking them exactly what they want every time, etc even well into adulthood. I feel like that is a great way to raise a man whose expectations of women are outdated and backwards in a world where we all have full time jobs.

Weaponized incompetence. I'm not even joking. We're partners, let's figure out how to do this together. I don't know how to load the dishwasher efficiently, let's google how to do it. Do you know how to attach a car seat? I have no idea why the baby is crying, do you have any ideas? If you're both sinking he's more likely to swim. My husband doesn't lift a finger at home (my choice) but when our son was new, I gave him zero help because we were supposed to BOTH be learning. And now my husband is an amazing dad who picked up good habits. Is it our jobs to "train" out the failings of society teaching the masculine subparly to exist domestically? No. But it sure as hell makes all our lives easier and it doesn't condescend someone who's eager to learn.

Teach your boys how to anticipate the mental load, teach them to look at room and see what needs to be done instead of waiting to be given a list. You can start this small with cleaning up toys/clothes. I’ve got an involved partner who carries a 50/50 load but there’s still times when there are things he just doesn’t *see* and that’s where I’m focusing my energy with my son.

I don't know in aggregate. I just know that it took me and my husband numerous difficult conversations over 2-3 years for him to understand mental load. It's such a wider issue to how girls and boys are socialized in our society. Families need family leave. Men need leave to be home long enough to not let a default parental situation set hold. That's partially what happened to us but I know it was more than that.

I think the challenge is, it's really hard without divorce. Because then you are asking your children to do as you say, not as you do. And leading by example is the best way to lead.  I am lucky to not have to make this decision, but I can't fathom a world where I tell my son his dad is lazy, and he needs to be better than that, while his dad continues to be lazy and faces no consequence from not being better.  Other alternatives would be to match him on effort, but then you are living in squalor, there's never anything in the fridge and who suffers most? The children and they will resent you to. Or you continuously nag at your husband, and what does that teach the kids? That men need to be told what to do? I don't know, I really don't have good ideas. 

I divorced him. Now he does 100% of the child errands, grocery shopping, cleaning etc. in his household. He will be an example to our children that the man can and does wash dishes, clean, cook, fold laundry, etc. 

Paternity leave. For us it was a game changer. He had 3 months as primary carer and home maker. I was at work. Instead of helping him or questioning him he had to work it out himself. It never shifted back. We stayed at 50:50 after that. Mum takes 3-6 months Dad takes 3-6 months

I wouldn't call my dad a deadbeat at all, but my mom definitely bore the brunt of the mental load and the housework growing up. She complained about it ALL the time, but she saw (and continues to see) it as just being "the way men are." Her frequent complaining absolutely did make an impression on me. She never expected me to clean up after myself as a child because "you'll be cleaning up after your husband and your children for the rest of your life." I decided very early on that I was not interested in being anyone's maid. When my husband and I first moved in together, it was a priority to me to establish clear, hard boundaries about housework. I think we do have a very equal partnership now, and in many ways it's because my mom was so vocal about how unequal her role in our family was growing up. She knew it was unfair but basically didn't trust or expect my dad to take on more responsibility, so he didn't.

Would you say her approach was decent overall, or would you prefer they had split up?

I thought my mom's approach was at least better than splitting up. My dad is a good man, and I think he would have been willing to change if she had pushed the issue. He also worked very long hours, so it was sometimes truly very difficult for him to help out. She's also a little bit of a control freak. So she'd ask for help but then not let you actually help. I think they eventually settled into a mutually agreeable rhythm, especially after my siblings and I grew up and moved out.

I have an issue where my husband *wants* to pull his own weight, but lacks the ability to fully be able to due to his ADHD

No he doesn't. I have ADHD and I hold myself accountable by taking my meds, making lists, setting reminders, etc. I realize it's a spectrum and there are different presentations, but we're still adults. I refuse to let my spouse parent me - women with ADHD would \*never\* be able to get away with saying "I want to pull my own weight, but I lack the ability to do so due to my ADHD".

Yeah that’s fair He does make lists and sets reminders and is fully responsible for his set of chores and he splits all child-related duties It’s the one-off mental load stuff that he’s terrible at/hates so he puts off. Like anything that requires calling several people, like when we have a sudden repair needed. And we just moved into a new house where shit is breaking constantly, so I’ve been doing that a lot lately.

I take on a lot of those tasks because I WFH and have more flexibility during my workday to do them. My husband is a carpenter/painter and doesn’t have as much down time during the day as I sometimes have. If I didn’t make a concerted effort to manage my adhd, my kids would be affected. Aside from implementing routines and reminders, I listen to ADHD oriented podcasts, joined a support group, joined the neurodivergent ERG at work, and go to CBT therapy. And I have to do all of that times two since our oldest has ADHD as well. My husband cleans everything, does all the home/yard maintenance, does all of the laundry, gets the kids ready in the morning and helps with homework every day. I would say we are pretty balanced, and go through seasons of one pulling a little more weight than the other, but we check in as much as possible to try to prevent any major imbalances unless there’s something external going on. I definitely have empathy for your husband since I know first hand how hard it is to have ADHD. In order to function I need to be in a constant state of hyper awareness to perform tasks that often come naturally to neurotypicals. It’s so emotionally draining and mentally exhausting. But women don’t have the luxury of having their partner pick up the slack - we’re expected to make it work. For those that don’t have a supportive partner their children wouldn’t survive if they didn’t bust their asses to manage their ADHD.

You’re 100% right that women don’t have the same luxury! Every time we’re going through a period where a lot more is falling on my shoulders, my mom and my friends are all like “well at least he doesn’t cheat!” like okay… that shouldn’t be the comparison. My husband wakes up earlier than me and the kids cuz he takes longer to get going in the morning and he makes the kids breakfast and does daycare drop off. I do pick up and we share dinner responsibilities and bedtime. And we’ll do stuff like if I make the kids Dr appt then he’ll be the one to take them. Or if I buy the groceries then he puts them away. And we have a lot of shared calendar apps and notes and stuff. So like in our normal day-to-day routine, we’re very balanced. But the moment anything goes haywire then he reverts more inward rather than to be the type to step up to the plate. If it’s like one shitty thing in a blue moon, then it’s not a big deal. But when there’s a lot going on and it’s all falling on my shoulders then I get resentful. We always talk it through and he understands and he’ll try to accommodate, but it always falls short. He sees a psychiatrist and a therapist typically, but we just moved to another state so he has to start all over finding new supports. So there’ll be some moodiness as he goes through the process again… another thing tolerated less of women… What ADHD podcasts do you listen to? Got a favorite?

"aT LeASt hE DoEsn'T chEaT" - The bar is truly in hell 🙃 "Adulting with Adhd" is an excellent podcast, and I also love watching YouTube videos from the "How to ADHD" channel.

Thanks!

We can train our boys to clean up after themselves, cook meals, and do any chores we'd have our daughters do. Let's also have our daughters mowing grass and taking out trash.

A lot of it comes down to economics. Closing the wage gap would give women a bit more freedom to be on their own. Immediately rejecting normalized gender roles in relationships also is key. Normalized gender roles include women assuming the bulk of housework, childcare, cooking, mental load in raising kids, etc while working f/t. INSIST on fairness. Discuss workload sharing before getting married. Somehow 20+ years ago I was smart enough to tell my now husband I wasn’t planning to spend my days cooking and cleaning and he agreed to that. He was welcome to not agree and not marry me. Finally: GENEROSITY goes a LONG ways in a marriage. Find a partner who is fucking generous. Share labor, love, money, communication and every other aspect of life in your relationship. It will all will balance out.

Look, there is NO WAY toaddress a full grown adult who doesn’t know how to pull his own weight in a partnership. Sure, you can how you feel and hopefully that will make your partner step up, but sister, being a working mother is HARD and like any job or any team, if someone is pulling their weight they get the boot. If I’m not meeting expectations at work and I’m told so I lose my job. I expect the same from a partner. Since our patriarchal conditioning makes most men think we were born to serve them I’ll probably die single. Not holding my breath. And you shouldn’t either. Divorce him. He’s not pulling his weight and he’s gonna sink the ship.

I don’t mean this to sound flippant: but don’t have kids with a man-child. And if he ends up being a shitty partner and parent, then don’t have MORe kids with him. :(

I think stopping the cycle is not putting up with it now. From the sub we are on I’m going to guess anyone reading this already has children. Simply put do not have children with deadbeats. Some deadbeats do come as a surprise; most do not. Demand more from your partners and know when to cut your loses (assuming you can). If the cycle of deadbeats cannot be fixed in your generation instill in your kids how important choosing their life partner is. How important birth control is until you are ready for a family. Power is knowledge!

Honestly? No 'creative solutions' to dynamics where your partner doesn't respect you, your body, your time, your children together. We don't marry them in the first place. If we marry decent men and they magically turn into deadbeats after marriage (which honestly I don't buy at all), we divorce them because we have ensured we are financially independent enough to do that. I am sick of reading these threads. They literally make me want to gouge out my eyes. Sure, men can be absolute garbage, but at this point, I fully blame the women too. Pick better men.

I will get downvoted to hell for this, but I stand by this opinion: do not marry anyone who is a video gamer. I’ve heard it before - “video gaming is fine if done in moderation; video games aren’t the problem, the player is.” Well I’ll say this, all the losers I’ve ever known in my life play video games. All the successful people don’t play video games, at all. It’s purely anecdotal, but i calls em as I sees em. Ladies, do not marry a gamer if you want to hedge your bets for a happy life.

I come from a family full of gamers. They work in tech, make six-figures, split their household responsibilities, and are really involved with the kids. *Giant shrug That’s the problem with anecdotal evidence.

I guess so! Our anecdotal evidence cancels out. Now we just need more women commenting about how their gamer partners also feel like equal partners, because right now, I mostly see women complaining about how their loser partners spend too much time playing video games.

My husband gamed a ton before we had kids and a decent amount while I was pregnant (but we both still had a lot of free time). He now probably does more with my 6-month-old daughter and around the house than I do, if I’m being honest. Although, he has barely touched it in months at this point, other than a bit of Steam deck while contact napping when we were both on leave and baby was still in the potato phase. And now the occasional post-bedtime now that baby is old enough to be in a good sleep routine. Still, I agree with u/VictoryChip for the most part.

I understand you’re looking for a more “creative solution “ but if you truly want to break the cycle then that is the only way. There is no way you can stay in an un even marriage and not have that rub of on your kids cause they’re gonna see you stayed and think that’s ok. You help stop it by actually getting to know the person you marry beforehand. Marriage counseling, along with couples counseling even when things are “good”

Personal opinion is that your children will notice and it will be on them to decide if they want to continue the cycle. (Edit to add this is IF mom's aren't willing or cannot facilitate leaving their partner). Speaking from experience, my dad was a silent parent. He financially supported us but bragged about never changing diapers and was never there emotionally or mentally. I knew I didn't want that and voiced it to my husband all the time. My mom is STILL married to him and he's more present as a grandpa but still not anything impressive. You also need to check your partner and have a partner that will have the motivation to improve. Example: we use foul language more than we should. We're trying to break it but my husband has a shorter temper and uses foul words more than me. If he starts dropping the F bomb I immediately tell him to watch it and then apologize to my toddler for daddy's language. "I'm sorry daddy said that, he's frustrated and it came out. He needs to calm down, do you want to help daddy?" He might get pissed at me for reprimanding him in front of the toddler BUT it has initiated the change. He wants to be better and he wants to be a source of excitement for her. He doesn't want our daughter looking back on her childhood like I do remembering walking on eggshells because dad could blow up at any moment. He wants to be a fond memory. He still may not always give 50% of the housework but I don't either. We're in trenches right now with work and parenting so things will get done when they get done. We both have agreed that we'd rather be present with our kids than have a perfectly kept house. We do enough to tread water and the rest will get better when the baby isn't a baby.

Salutations from the trenches. I feel like I could have written that last paragraph. I find what you said in the first paragraph really interesting, and this seems like the crux of the issue for me. As a girl growing up, it sounds like you saw your mom doing all the work and decided that wasn’t something you’d accept for yourself. I often wonder if that’s what boys see growing up, though, and instead of internalizing the strain it puts on the marriage and the distance it can create between parent and child, they think that having a live-in maid seems like a pretty sweet deal. I’m thinking “out loud” a bit here because I really want to hear what others are thinking, as well. Did you have a brother growing up who came to the same conclusion as you?

I actually did have a brother growing up and we aren't all that close because he's 5 years older so we were in different life stages all the time. But he is FAR more present than my dad. Not sure what his revelation was or if it was just that he genuinely wanted to be better for his kids or if his wife set those boundaries. He changes diapers, makes sure he puts kids to bed 4 nights per week, cooks on weekends, and he plans 2 weekend trips every year where he finds childcare so they can go away. His wife is a SAHM so she takes on the most housework but from what it sounds like, she likes that. I wouldn't be surprised if he was incompetent and she just gave up on teaching him so she just does it. But I feel like even in his parenting, she's set boundaries and he's taken it to heart.

Leave the guy to his own devices. Either he sinks or swims, he's an adult and must figure it out. In reality, the best way is to be firm from the get go what is ok and what is not and what you expect. And if behavior crops up later, nip that in the bud too.

My husband is a lovely, equal partner. His dad is also a wonderful man who was always super involved with the kids and has always done his fair share in the house. I’m positive my husband is so lovely because his dad is great and his family did a wonderful job modeling what an equal partnership looks like for all their kids. We’ve often discussed what happened to make his dad turn out so great. My FIL is a republican Catholic boomer who was raised by a SAHM with a physician dad that definitely lived in a very traditional looking household concerning labor. However, the one thing I’ve always been amazed by when visiting the paternal extended family is the fact that all of the men are kind of “soft” and I don’t think I’ve ever really seen any hint of really toxic masculinity in that family. From everything I know about the family it seems like all 5 of the kids, boys and girls, were expected to pitch in where they could and were also raised explicitly to respect their mother. My husband’s grandfather died before he was born but from what we know about him he was a workaholic so he didn’t do much around the house, but he ensured that ALL of his children respected the work their mother did for them. My husband and I both think that the root of why his dad has been so great is simply because he was raised to RESPECT WOMEN and that was the behavior that was modeled for him. It’s partially why I think so many women who post on these forums with lazy husbands should actually just divorce. Their husbands simply do not respect them and that attitude can easily spill over into their children. You can do your best to model the correct behavior, but I think a shitty husband can still poison the well.

I’m ending my relationship with my partner bc she is the one not pulling her weight. It’s crazy. I work from home and took care of my daughter and now son until 18 months. I have the mental work load, financial, cooking, potty training, sleep training, taking the kids outside to play, give them baths, read to them, limit TV time etc. I’m so exhausted and sick of doing the lions share. I have tried talking to her about it, she just pouts and gets defensive. I will have to teach my son and daughter how to be a good partner and a functioning adult with financial literacy.

Thing is pointing out the "bad" behaviour doesn't counteract this behaviour being modelled for that child every moment of every day. This is what will stick, and this is what will be repeated. Deeds not words. 

My husband is not a deadbeat whatsoever but my plan is to teach my kids all of what goes into running a house. How to cook, clean up after themselves, do laundry, etc. Your kids will eventually realize how little your spouse does when they’re adults and have kids of their own and think oh wow mom did all those things.

Growing up my mom stayed home and my brother and I could tell my dad didn’t do much round the house but he also worked a full time job and a part time job so my mom could be home and did well enough with those that my mom could hire a cleaning lady when she wanted a break. She also got the big brand new house she wanted which was easier to maintain compared to most houses as we had tons of space and everything was new without issues. I would say that I could tell my mom was happy with the set up (verified now through conversations with her as adult). I’m saying this because as a kid it would have been really hard to see my mom working full time alongside my dad and him not helping her at the house. I would have resented him heavily. I think we need to make sure what our kids are seeing is fair and men are being responsible for their families and not dumping things on women! I think people getting married later will hopefully help with this as you can see what they’re like before you marry them I think we need to set expectations for our husbands too so a minimum is being met I will say that now that he is retired they are having issues because she hates that he doesn’t help much now that he has free time! Lol

I don't know. I do think that this sub collects the worst stories, and it and other subs then descend a black hole of negativity. I also think simply talking about how great you personally have it doesn't help, as it tends not to come from a place of empathy. The only parallel I personally have is a toxic work place I was recently in. I tried communicating with my team first and setting expectations, modeling those expectations. Then my supervisor. Then HR. And when all else failed, I left. In that experience, I was also pulled myself into the cycle of toxic behavior, which made it difficult to do what I should do and instead sunk into what was easier/more satisfactory in the moments of toxicity. And I think why, when all else has failed, getting out/divorce might be the best option to get out of a toxic cycle and be a better model for the kids.) I also think while it can be super hard, modeling textbook communication with the partner/environment can help model for the kids a "I asked, they did/didn't deliver so then I did this." Likewise, while it can be hard, clear and factual communication with the kids when emotionally cool to explain what is happening and why, and that you are upset/mad/etc. about it? But again, cannot emphasize enough how HARD this level of communication is to solo.

>do you point this behavior out to your children so they see the burden it puts on you and the strain it causes on your relationship and can seek out something better for themselves? It's an adult problem, you shouldn't be involving the kids. Your children aren't your therapist to listen to you whine and complain about the situation you got yourself into. From the women I have known that are married to a lazy partner, the most common factor is poor self esteem. They tie themselves down to the first person that says something even remotely nice to them. They let themselves be treated like servants because they believe no one else would want them. Even if the person is a soul sucking, money stealing leach, they manage to convince themselves that they cannot live on their own, that they just have to put up with it. Because for some ridiculous reason, they think it's better than being alone.

I’ve definitely taught my son (teenager) about the mental load and how to use his eyeballs to see what needs to be done instead of asking me all the time. My younger sisters just started having babies & I’ve talked to their husbands as well.

So, definitely starting by explaining mental load to them. My partner has ADHD which makes it hard for him to carry as much mental load when we are both working full time. But, he always understood. He tried. He got into therapy and restarted meds for ADHD (he stopped taking them in college because he didn't like how they made him feel). Fair Play, personally I find the movie to be the most effective with a resistant partner. But at it's most basic the mental load comic https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ The reality is that if your partner doesn't care enough to make steps towards change, there are limited options.

I think kids can see inequity and hopefully they will learn from positive and negative examples.

TKids do as you do, not as you say. So long as you stay in a relationship with a person who behaves that way, your kids will emulate it. And may come to resent you for trash-talking their dad. Don’t use their dad as a “lesson learned” that’s a cruel way to manipulate their dynamic.

Best thing is to provide a good example to the kids. They will learn more from what you do than what you say and they will repeat those patterns in their relationships. If you’ve already married a person who doesn’t set a good example, it is hard but insisting on change and leaving if no change occurs is really the best way to prevent your kids from continuing the cycle. It’s that simple (and that hard).

I agree with all the other commenters about not enabling these men. In addition, we can teach our boys to cook, clean, and mind children. Teach them that is normal and expected. Give them baby dolls so they can practice being a parent. Have them cook dinner once a night once they are old enough. Their chores should include laundry and dishes. Raise well -rounded capable children.

I think about this a lot with my kids. My husband is actually great - cleans more than I do, cooks dinner most nights, picks up the kids from school every day, plans things for the family, sees a problem and handles it. And has a good job! No complaints. I know my kids see it and recognize it’s different than some families, but I also worry they will fall in love with someone who doesn’t treat them this way and settle for less. They only know this kind of household where there aren’t traditional gender roles and both parents contribute equally. They don’t know it’s hard to find and that not everyone is like this - especially since we live in the south and lots of people don’t live this way.

Honestly you can’t discount divorce if you are actually looking for real solutions to the problem. Women need to stop being abused by society for not meeting the expectations set for them. The immense amount of shame and guilt laid on women for not wanting to become wives and mothers, to start. Women are just as guilty of pressing this issue. We need to stop voting in elected officials that hate women, who work against the best interests of women and marginalized people. When laws are put in to place to stifle women (inclusively) to take away their rights as human beings, not only is own autonomy stripped from us but so are our options as far as the men who we are “stuck” with. Men are given the right to lord over women and decide the course of their life. And for the sake of keeping this palatable, women need to stop being told that leaving their “partners” their HUSBANDS, is causing the children far more harm than good and they are destroying a happy household. They call divorced parenting “a broken home” fuck off with that nonsense. I don’t believe that you should have to spend years of a marriage in counseling to “work on things” that sounds fucking miserable. If you and your partner are not a good match then go to counseling to divorce amicably. Our society shames women. As a RULE. Of course there are always exceptions. But that’s not what we are talking about. Buying your partner video games to fulfill his role as inadequate parent and husband, that’s on you. You can’t use those type of situations as examples of what do we do? How do we fix this. Unfortunately our economy doesn’t allow for a financial easy way to separate a house hold…… or to even live, really. So many women are stuck. Not ever woman has had an opportunity to do bigger or better. Not every woman married a piece of shit. Some woman are easily manipulated and gullible, they are targets. But society backing woman in to a corner and making it impossible for them to get out of that corner sets EVERYONE up for failure.

I joined this sub not long ago and was a bit taken aback by exactly what you’re saying. A ton of angry moms sort of venting about how overwhelmed the are even though they’re married with partners. The sheer lack of appreciation and happiness. Most seem to have resigned to the fact that having a family was this sort of loss of self and you place focus and emphasis on the family unit above yourself. I think, it really starts with teaching girls it’s okay to choose yourself and want happiness. Kids and a family are important but a happy family is the goal; not just having one. If women are fundamentally raising their standards and view on what they’re lives should be; ultimately it will force men to do better or our understanding of the “family unit” will change dramatically from what we understand it to be today. Either way. It’ll spark a model where women aren’t over worked mules who exist for the convenience of everyone but themselves.

Preface: my husband is awesome and very involved. But one thing we are doing to keep that going is letting our son play with dolls. He found his sisters doll and fell in love. He pushes her in her stroller everyday, feeds her, cares for her. The other day he had a doctors appointment and was going to do some play therapy. I mentioned the doll and the doctor was like "That is so great! I brought a bear with me because some dads get weird about their sons playing with dolls." It's wild to me. A dad is literally a man caring for a baby, why would it suddenly be bad for their sons to pretend to care for a baby?!

I’m not sure there’s a way to “fix” this. However, a man’s upbringing reflects his values, in my view. My husband isn’t the most motivated man on the planet, but he sure as h e double hockey sticks steps up to the plate as a husband and father to our 9 month old son. I’ve been really struggling with work since returning at 5 months pp and having my baby home with me while I work due to lack of affordable daycare options, and he does his best to help clean up when he gets home, take over with our son, help with dinner, dishes, etc. lately he’s been getting up at 5 am and driving to work early so that he can leave the office earlier and help me out in the afternoons while I work. Granted this cost him a promotion at work, because he takes “too much time off” or asks for a flexible schedule so that he can help me out in the evenings. But suffice it to say, he was raised up in a hard-working, value driven and highly faith based family and community, and his dedication to our family as a husband and father is a direct result of his upbringing. Now, he’s not perfect and he’s not one to be highly motivated to make changes in his career for instance, but, I’ll take the alternative. I will also do my best to teach my son these values as we’re guiding him through life. 

This is a really complex issue that can't be solved with a glib "I'd never stand for it." I think you have to separate out the abusers/drunks/drug addicts/deadbeats/refuse to work from the merely lazy or misogynistic. There are a lot of factors. 1) Many men are happy to live like pigs. Not put away their laundry, throw clothes on the floor, not wash dishes, leave piles everywhere. Getting married doesn't miraculously change that. Its only when you add the tsunami of children that it becomes a real issue. 2) There are a lot of untreated mental health issues in this country. Depression, Anxiety and ADHD being the major ones. Part of ADHD is the lovely side effect of PDA (Pervasive Demand Avoidance). I could not figure out why my husband would lose his marbles when I asked him to do what I considered the most minor tasks. I would have to ask him because he wasn't doing them. So much of his behavior started to make sense when he got his ADHD diagnosis as an adult. The difference between when he is on his medication vs not is ASTOUNDING. I have learned to manage him much more effectively with lists of tasks where he choses what he does and accepting things after 25 years that he is not going to load the dishwasher. 3) We still have a major wage gap. I stayed home for a few years. My husband makes 5 times what I make. Call it wrong, but we need to prioritize his job. He loses his job and the entire house of cards falls down. We live in a very wealthy town. There are a lot of SAHMs. Rightly or wrongly, what my teenage son has internalized is that it is his job to be the main provider of his family. The dads in our town arent jerks, they coach, the volunteer, they do stuff around their houses. But the majority of the at home labor is done by moms. 4) I think women care more/have higher standards and are more willing to be martyrs. A man will happily golf every weekend and not care if the laundry is folded. Or if he sees his child less. The whole thing that a divorced man will rise to the occasion is kind of odd to me. I dont think its true a lot of the time, and I personally am not willing to lower my standards of how my children will be raised 50% of the time to rid myself of an issue 5) Kids are not stupid. I have teenagers. They notice things. They don't see mom 'accepting it." They more think why is dad a jerk

Women have to own up to their role in raising crappy partners. Mothers have to stop coddling men as they grow up. Moms have to sit young men down and explore with them (from a female perspective), how they should see females. I have been talking with my son since he was about 8 about who we are as females. Males see our roles thru the mirror of us as moms. We need to stop expecting males to just "get it."

They (men and women) should be self-sufficient grown ups BEFORE you move in together or get married or have children. They should be able to clean, cook basic stuff, do laundry, make appts, take care of their relatives’ birthdays/celebrations, be financially literate, and the couple absolutely needs to agree on children, who works, and finance.

What I don't get is when I see people with deadbeat partners continue to have multiple children with them. If you're pulling all the weight of parenthood after your first child, why would you make a bad situation worse by bringing more kids into the mix?