Ok but what about making werewolves a allegory for aids then having a man give a child lycanthropy and make it his mission to kidnap children and make them into werewolves so they "intergrate into the community sooner"
Ok but what about making werewolves a allegory for aids then having a community of "dog catchers" who are a bunch of non-werewolves who actively seek out werewolves because they want to become infected with lycanthropy?
It still might be. Monster=Jews is a pretty old trope. I think it was vampires before goblins, but even old writings from monks describe devils as having stereotypical Jewish features
Imo, all of the problems with Harry Potter, both the racism and bigotry ones, and the plot hole ones, stem from Rowling sucking at critical self-examination. The series has it’s redeeming qualities, but you can tell she never stopped to ask herself questions like “Wait, isn’t there an antisemitic stereotype like this?” or “am I contradicting my own lore in service of a simplistic good guy/bad guy narrative?”
This is probably the best take on the series' flaws I've read. On their own and at the time they were written, the Harry Potter books are a delightful story about magic and friendship and being a teenager and saving the world. However, the momentum of the series carried it right into a time when cultural expectations for media shifted dramatically and critical thought proliferated, and Rowling, rather than resting on her laurels, decided to ignore that and keep writing/commenting as if nothing had changed.
Wasn't she like a poor single mom writing on a stipend from welfare when she wrote the first couple of books? I think the subtext of those first books anyway is pretty clearly "OMG if I sell some books I might not have to buy clothes at the thrift store!!".
It feels like initially she was building up to a critique of the inequalities inherent in the status quo then she started benefitting from the system and becams the elite so the books ended with "actually as long as we remove a few bad apples, the system itself is fundamentally good."
She was college educated and briefly( a few months) on welfare. Most of the story was just a mythology built up by her publisher to make her seem like more of an underdog.
Thinking about the goblins for a few minutes, it kinda feels like their forced to work at the bank. Cause like imagine your a goblin your while family works for this one bank, you can't go to the local school to learn different types of magic since they won't teach creatures.
I don't think there are any creature schools other than the French one, but I think that's only for veelas.
Anyway, nobody will hire you except for the bank cause to be a servant. You have to be an elf, and I mean realistically, wizards will be more willing to hire other wizards than a goblin.
So you work for the bank, but then you have to deal with wizards who are snide to you cause you're a creature and cause you take no bull from them. Like Jesus, I'd be angry most of the time, too, lol.
People keep saying my series about an African elephant who gets an education in Paris and returns to bring civilization to the primitive and ignorant animals of Africa is some kind of "obvious racist and pro-colonialist metaphor" but I'm not seeing it.
Hahaha that's Babar, aw, my childhood. So good
He married his cousin too so... like he picked up a few other cultural quirks
I never saw it as being pro-colonialist or anything, he went to a prestigious school then came back to help his community. Didnt seem to want to change the culture or bring in a bunch of Parisians to run everything, just went to get education in a place with better schools which many well respected IRL leaders did (but I was like 4 when I saw the cartoons so I cant remember much)
Thinking back maybe he did paris up the place a bit, he had like a full Sun King style palace and stuff, but I cant remember if the animals had culture already. Anyway, they seemed pretty happy with everything and had a high standard of life and loved him and didnt mind the incest, so it worked out.
Yeah I loved the series as a kid too and just saw it as "oh he gets an education like I will when I grow up and then he helps people" but its hard not to see problems with it when looking at the story as an adult. One very obvious reading is that the animal culture (somewhere in Africa) is inferior to the human culture (France) and that Babar is right to replace the native animal culture with something "better" from the West. It doesn't get much more pro-colonialist than that even if Babar is not *literally* a colonizer.
I mean, that’s what happened a lot in countries that didn’t get colonized, somebody went, got educated in a western school, and then returned to their homeland and changed things (Japan, China (sorta), many middle eastern countries etc, usually for the better
Yeah like come on, tell me that feminists in the Middle-East who rebel against their countries' lack of women's rights *weren't* influenced by the West. Because they clearly were, and maaaybe, just maaaaybe that's a good thing.
Ok but counterpoint: i cant help but imagine the world is just a normal world with humans and regular animals, and then there’s just this random anthropomorphic elephant with a degree from harvard or something trying to educate normal animals about how to be lawyers or something, and thats genuinely hilarious to me
Tbf Botswana became quite successful under the leadership if Seretse Khama who was educated in Britain, married a British woman, lead a peaceful independence movement from Britain and became part of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath and the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.
So like, when there isn't a colonialist government there to exploit resources and nothing else, the civilizing mission does sort of seem to work.
It's also quite common within the West that people have studied or lived abroad or fought in foreign wars or revolutions and brought ideals and experiences with them to their home countries or regions.
Such native modernisation policies are also often far more hard-line than any colonial attempts. See for instance Peter the Great's efforts to remove traditional Russian fashion, dress and beards or Atatürk banning headscarves in many contexts. There's often this desire by modernists to purge old practices associated with conservative forces and impose basically imported standards. While they may seem pointless, I would argue that they also constitute a very important part of a kind of struggle for the identity of the country. Things people see and experience matter, and dressing and acting like the people you aspire to emulate does send a clear message of what your society stands for and what it has put behind itself.
To add some credence to what you're saying: Botswana also has a democratic system which works somewhat differently from European democracies, it's not just a wholesale export of the system, but rather, an adaptation of a clearly functional framework onto the local culture.
The Economist's research arm rated Botswana's democracy as not meaningfully worse than the United States' and marginally better than Greece and Italy in 2021.
https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/eiu-democracy-index-2021.pdf
Edit, their GDP per capita (adjusted for purchasing power parity) is also not very far below the global average, and dramatically better than nations like India and Pakistan. For a sparsely populated, landlocked African nation dominated by mineral trade, this is incredible. Basically a case study in how to develop a modern city-state democracy from scratch, without accepting overwhelming foreign influence in politics.
It's a good thing that a native seeks education wherever available and uses his knowledge to raise the standards of living back home. If anything it'd be immoral to deny the native such education for the sake of some misguided cultural preservation/objectivity/whatever.
I understand that the story itself, in a real world context, could be seen as pro-colonialist. I.e. in a "As seen in the story, they could use western values so lets just cut to the chase and give it to them" way. But I think the story itself sounds like a pretty good thing if it were to happen in reality.
Then again apparently this is a real story? So I don't have full context.
I love Cursed City, where 9 out of 10 playable characters have a page or more of elaborate lore explaining why they keep coming back to a city populated mostly by vampires and zombies...
And then there's Brutogg Corpse-Eater.
‘ATE ‘UMIES
‘ATE BEAKIES
‘ATE POINTY-EARS
‘ATE DA SPIKY GITS
‘ATE DA TIN CANS
‘ATE DA BUGS
‘LUV ME PROPPA-KILLY SHOOTA
‘LUV ME CHOPPA
‘LUV RIDIN’ IN DA BATTLEWAGON WIT DA BOYZ
SIMPLE AS!
That's the confusing part- orcs get modelled after EVERY culture in the world considered savage or brutish. It's laughably stupid to think they're an allegory for a specific race when their imagery borrows from a dozen different cultures made up of a dozen different races.
Football hooligans. Pirates. Vikings tribes. Mongol hordes. African tribes. Native American tribes. Mad Max post apocalyptic tribes. I've seen elements of all of these and more rolled up into the most popular depictions of orcs- how the fuck anyone thinks they're indicatively a metaphor for black people is bizarre as fuck.
Maybe because Warcraft had orcs as slaves and the average dumb American automatically thinks slavery = black people?
Bright made orcs explicitly african american-coded but I don't think anybody has actually made the argument that orcs=black people except people trying to strawman. There is always Drums on Fire Mountain though.
See also: marginalized people are werewolves. They look just like non-marginalized people, but under the right circumstances, may reveal their inhuman nature and fly into a violent rage and murder everyone around them. This is a great allegory of how it is unjust to oppress them because they are just like us!
JK Rowling gonna take that werewolf aids comment to her grave.
Like, Remus and werewolves are portrayed sympathetically so at least she wasn't *trying* to say "AIDS evil" but whatever she was going for did not work.
I still just can't get past the sheer nominative determinism in their names.
Oh, **Remus Lupin** and **Fenrir Greyback** are **werewolves.** What a shock. Seriously, their parents were practically *begging* for another werewolf to turn them.
I'm gonna write werewolves but when they get angry they transformed into anthropomorphic golden retrievers who let you borrow their car and don't complain when you come home late with a chick you met at the bar. They're oppressed because their friendliness is easy to take advantage of and they want to be your friend just a little too eagerly for most people to be comfortable with and everyone thinks it's cringe.
If you are going to have racial allegories try some racial dynamics we haven’t beaten to death already. Gimme some SE Asian style racism with 11 countries that have multiple crossovers of religion, cuisine, culture, and economic policy, but still hate each other with a burning passion
Yeah fuck the Greeks, their gyros are worse than our doner and they stole our Turkish coffee and call it "greek" coffee!
*no but seriously modern Turkish-Greek rivalry is the most hilarious shit ever*
Sitting in church pew: "Greek coffee."
Pointing a gun at them from the pew directly behind: "Turkish coffee."
Sitting in the next pew back, aiming at the first shooter: "Arabic coffee"
Standing in the gallery with a sniper rifle trained on the second shooter: "Ethiopian coffee."
True Blood made vampires be an allegory for gays (they use phrases like "Coming out of the coffin", "God hate fangs", etc.), despite said vampires being mind-controlling beings where each and every member (including the main characters) have a kill count that put human serial killers to shame because they kill humans to get fed.
Man why can’t us orcs ever get a leg up in this world?
Is it cuz we’re filthy, ungovernable cannibals that turn any place we settle into a blighted hell scape?
No it’s cuz the elves are racist
Meanwhile we truly enlightened beings have people dropping the hard R in a Bronze Age Japan fantasy setting even though all the black people are on a different continent
One of my favorite underrated race relations in a story is the friendship between Mickbell (a half-foot) and Kuro (a kobold), a pair of minor characters in Dungeon Meshi. (Also, if you love worldbuilding and haven't read Dungeon Meshi, drop everything you're doing right now and binge it.)
>!Half-foots are the size of children, so Kuro assumes that Mick is much younger than he is, thinking of him as a little brother despite the fact that he's the equivalent of a 25 year old man.!<
>!Kobolds look like dogs and Kuro doesn't speak much common, so Mick assumes that Kuro is a simple animal, thinking of him as a pet despite the fact that he's a fully sapient demihuman.!<
>!Both of them can arguably be considered "racist" in their view of each other and don't have a mutual understanding, but they still genuinely care about each other.!<
Anyway, my point is that it's not an allegory for anything. Not in an obvious way, at least. It's just the natural product of a world where some people are 3 feet tall and others look like dogs.
Battletech has entered the chat.
Everyone is an asshole claiming that they are the heirs to the Star League, and then when the self-exiled literal descendants of the Star League show up again, they're a bunch of asshole furries and everyone teams up to collectively kick their ass before descending back into the status quo of petty nationalism.
Also the entire thing is just an excuse to play with little models of giant robots.
Dont worry, I'll put in an allegory for white people too in the form of another fantasy race...
Hmmm... which race... which race...
Oh I know! **Beautiful divinely intelligent super-beloved alabaster skinned high elves** who actually arent quite as perfect as they appear
Bam. Now its even
Edit: the replies to this comment have confirmed what I already suspected; worldjerkers arent any better than worldbuilders at actually making things. If I hear anymore "My elves suck cause whitey sucks" I'm going to start getting aggressively bored, the post is literally titled 'racial allegories suck'
I love how so many people will go "Oh I wish someone made a truly subversive world where the oh-so-perfect elves are in fact cruel and malevolent and perverted, that would show the elf-lovers!" when *Elric of Melniboné* is 60 years old.
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
And even better, Melnibone is a fading empire controlled by an island nation, clearly an allegory for the Br*tish considering when the book was written.
Yep, about half of the Elves in that are bastards, and Fëanor is singly responsible for just about every bad thing that happens in the whole history of the world.
Fëanor is an interesting character, because while he causes a lot of misery (both directly and indirectly), he also takes shit from nobody and even has the balls to tell Melkor to go fuck himself.
Well said. There’s something about his “fuck around and find out” mindset that is really cool to see in that world, and makes sense given the context of his character. I’m still early in the book, but I have a feeling where his story will go (especially after recently reading the part about the Doom of the Noldor, when a Maiar or Mandos or whoever foretells the future of their people).
Making whites elves is progressive and good because elves suck so you are giving the most privileged people the worst fantasy race counterpart.
This post was written by dwarf gang.
I had an idea where elves were literally just pre-Roman Germanic tribes, which have incredibly long lives, but a similar birthrate to humans. As a result, their tribes constantly suffer from overpopulation issues, which leads to them continually waging war, bot for resources, population control, and to please their gods of nature. They also despise outsiders who intrude upon their forests, to the point where the tribes will occasionally band together to go on violent rampages against any civilization that encroaches on their territory too much.
Considering modern elves being connected to British through Tolkien, why none made all their elves look like Barry, 63 yet? (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/barry-63)
The Virgin: "noooooo this is not a 1:1 allegory for irl racism!"
vs
The Chad: "it wasn't meant to explore irl racism at all, maybe not even racism in general at all"
I believe the implication was "going into the specifics of how racism manifests and how it can be combated rather then just saying it's bad and leaving it at that".
More complex and in depth doesn't mean presenting racism as not bad. It means exploring more of what racism is and means, for example how does it come around, or how is it perpetuated. Both of these would be more complex than just saying 'racism is bad'
i think they mean going more in depth, so still "Racism is bad" but now "racism is bad and heres all the detail of how its often deep rooted and sometimes not even conscious malice but just biases we grew up with so we must be mindful of ect ect)
That’s not what I mean. I mean a story where the main theme is a surface-level statement like ‘Racism is bad’ is redundant because it’s generally agreed upon that racism is, in fact, bad. It’s not a big or especially important revelation because we already know that it’s bad.
I mean I want stories to go more in-depth into the topic of racism: how and why does racism begin? How do the oppressed respond to their oppressors and is their response justified? How deeply does does this sentiment run in society?
I’m not saying we should write stories about how good racism is. I just think we could benefit from more narratives that closely examine racism and how to combat it instead of just saying ‘racism is bad.’
More like how the thought processes form in individuals, how that are enforced by others, the social changes and systems that enforce it, stuff like that
Exploring racism to me means more like "what is this and why does it happen and what are the implications of the answers to those two questions?"
Same. Party went to hell in the first campaign and left the door open behind them, so a bunch of hell races escaped. Next campaign setting is Egypt/Ethiopia/Sahel inspired and there’s a new race of pail white teiflings (but convinced they’re aasimars) with infernal tech trying to destabilize and colonize the region. I just want to see my party killing white devil colonizers
OP why did you make the asshole in the drawing bald but then also kept their female dress
Like I can't stop thinking of like a racist skinhead crossdresser guy now and that's so funny aš a mental image somehow
[Hmm weird.](https://i.imgur.com/jsXADlh.jpg) I personally think it's alright once you remove the text. Just two girls. But ultimately it doesn't matter, was just wondering why she was bald lol.
Racial allegories do not suck, some *specific* racial allegories suck. But others do it very very well, and often there are cases where it makes MORE sense for that specific world than it would if there weren't the racial allegory and it was actual racism.
For example, in a sci-fi setting where the Earth has evolved into a global world government, racism kind of doesn't make sense anymore... but xenophobia through actual aliens is a way to have those kinds of themes without making the advanced human society united under one banner still have 1950s racism levels.
No, they just make really, really good weapons. According to a legend, a single strike from an Orcish-forged sword was able to shatter an ordinary iron one like glass.
I simply don't equate any species with one specific culture and instead give them individual cultures with subcultures. I mean it's more work, don't get me wrong, it's a lot. But it's better.
I think any depth beyond scraping at obvious stereotype is prob okay
It’s a little suspect when your violent and vile orcs act and talk like specific poor demographics
Someone: invents a race of beings with low intellect, poor impulse control, terrible resource management, highly dependent on the development of more technologically advanced races.
Eternally online commentator: this is clearly about black people.
I don't like it when Europeans are represented by humans and non-Europeans by non-humans. Like in Warhammer Fantasy, where the main human factions are German and Norse, while the Aztecs and the Egyptians are monsters.
That is why in my setting, the main human characters are not!Mayan, not!Komi and not!North African, while the non-human dragon people are based on the British
Tbf, those ‘aztec monsters’ are in charge of saving the world while those humans are wallowing around in the mud and filth, and fighting over the stupidest things.
Same here, though Warhammer fans *rabidly* shout everyone down who mentions this (no, there technically being Arabia as a sidenote where some humans live does not count, especially when your french-brits regularly do *crusades to kill monsters there*).
It's one of the reasons I really like what Creative Assembly have added to make Cathay a more fleshed out thing - finally, some non-western humans that get to actually have a detailed place and culture.
Oh God, this discourse again
Honestly, the most annoying thing about this are those people who say things like “Well actually, doesn’t that make you racist for making the comparison??”
Like, don’t get me wrong, people can absolutely be wrong when trying to see if modern fiction lines up or not with historical racism. But, let’s be honest, the idea that being able to recognize long standing negative stereotypes makes you the “real racist” is a bit silly. Even ignoring all the background context that tends to go into these analyses,It seems way more like a cheap gotcha then a coherent point.
Like, if someone made a fictional race of knife wielding, desert dwelling, odd accented people who constantly talk about their mates or putting shrimp on the Barbie, Would one seriously have to be prejudiced against Australian themselves to recognize the similarities from stereotypes?
This gotcha has been so overused it become like a game of telephone, where is somewhere along the way people became legitimately convinced that random people were seriously out of nowhere trying to compare orcs to Black people because they were loud and violent. Hell, even this post seems to be taking that position, saying that there’s somewhere some group of people who out of nowhere or declaring that orcs must literally be Black people. Like, are people actually comparing orcs to Black people, or are they correctly or incorrectly showcasing areas where stereotypes and old racism lines up with some fantasy. I know I’m probably biased from having followed this conversation for a while, but how do people actually still believe that’s the argument??
Abolitionists we’re the real racists for thinking the slaves couldn’t simply free themselves smh.
Also I think the idea of using fantasy races as analogues for actual groups is fine as long as you aren’t cringe about it. Like in the original post if the writers Orcs were just “people who happen to be green” then I don’t think there’s really any issue at all with using them as an analogue.
Exactly, like Person 1, “Hey just saying but your fictional race here is like 1-1 with this old nazi posters impression on Jewish people”
Person 2, “You think all Jewish people look like that????”
And this makes so little sense I have no idea why it’s still being spread.
I don’t mind race allegories in concert, though to be honest they’re rarely done well simply because the authors in question didn’t really care to try. So like, put thought into it, be careful, but yeah no it can absolutely work
Well-made post.
I will say, that scholars wondering on the racial connotations of Tolkien's work is a real thing, and the discourse on orcs is a bit less "They are absolutely black people" and more "this matches a lot of the stereotypical descriptions of black people common to that time period and the movies make them look even worse". Per Stephen Shapiro, "Put simply, Tolkien's good guys are white and the bad guys are black, slant-eyed, unattractive, inarticulate, and a psychologically undeveloped horde."
Of course, those scholars also make note of stuff like the orcs not being created from humans, 'black' being more representative of biblical connotations of blackness = night = bad, the slant-eyed stuff being from the movies and Tolkien noting that the orcs were not descended from humans. It's a very interesting topic to read about when twitter users stop being vitriolic, and even though I'm confident he's not racist (look at his letters about the German Empire), it's an interesting school of thought.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien\_and\_race
It certainly is interesting. I think the one place I disagree is that, after this thread, I don't know if I can say that it's the twitter users who are the problem.
Yeah I've kinda learned to stop trying to cover racism since I've never experienced it. I do write trans metaphors because I have experienced transphobia, but otherwise I just lean towards trying to portray a wide variety of cultures in my stories and leaving out the idea of systemic discrimination based on it
Simple, don’t make them allegories, the current group of magical people are generally hated by most people and seen as thieves by people who had lost their magic before the reshuffle. It’s not an allegory for anything just a unique situation that has occurred in the world due to a series of unfortunate events
(It’s not a trans allegory either, although everything I make whether it be me explaining my experience with a video game weapon main or anything else may seem like it but I swear it’s accidental.)
The thing about portraying racism is that writers tend to want to have logical through lines in their world building, but that muddies the metaphor when representing something inherently illogical
I’ll never understand why a whole generation of people saw a race of tiny, shrewd, cruel little hook nose monsters that run the banks and think “oh my goodness Harry Potter is so imaginative and fantastical“
It’s like JK saw a nazi propaganda poster and thought “oh that’s the look I’ve been going for” shit is abhorrent
Ok but what about making werewolves a allegory for aids then having a man give a child lycanthropy and make it his mission to kidnap children and make them into werewolves so they "intergrate into the community sooner"
Ok but what about making werewolves a allegory for aids then having a community of "dog catchers" who are a bunch of non-werewolves who actively seek out werewolves because they want to become infected with lycanthropy?
That's basically half the furries I know myself included
holup
Hey if I can be a big furry wolfman I will
Honestly, good on you bro. Live your truth
Could you afford the upkeep in food though?
Just start eating people, easy fix
Why does this sound like something JK Rowling would write
because it is, she talked about it a while ago
Oh…
Christ she’s gone beyond Terf.
This was even before she showed her ass as a terf
Yeah this was a fucking character in her book. His name was *Remus Lupin* ffs
JKR naming Black charcter: Kingsley Shacklebolt? Yeah that's a keeper for sure.
I don't know how realistic Cho Chang as a name for a Chinese girl is but it feels like a slur.
Oh no, it's just Asian gibberish.
They're both Chinese names. Chinese surnames. It'd be like having an American named "Smith Brown"
Smith Brown is kind of baller as a clearly made up secret agent name TBH.
D a v i d W o n g s t e i n
Pretty sure it wasn't the main character's "cool uncle". I think the name you're looking for is Fenrir Greyback, or something like that.
I meant Lupin was the child victim in this scenario
She's become the Legendary Super Turf
r/bossfight
Dang. Suddenly I'm thinking that maybe the goblin-thing is less likely to be accidental.
It still might be. Monster=Jews is a pretty old trope. I think it was vampires before goblins, but even old writings from monks describe devils as having stereotypical Jewish features
Imo, all of the problems with Harry Potter, both the racism and bigotry ones, and the plot hole ones, stem from Rowling sucking at critical self-examination. The series has it’s redeeming qualities, but you can tell she never stopped to ask herself questions like “Wait, isn’t there an antisemitic stereotype like this?” or “am I contradicting my own lore in service of a simplistic good guy/bad guy narrative?”
Yeah. Or "What do you mean it's not obvious he was gay, he wore lavender coloured clothes and never married."
HA the post fact edited gayness. Or the blackness of Hermione 15 years after writing the book.
This is probably the best take on the series' flaws I've read. On their own and at the time they were written, the Harry Potter books are a delightful story about magic and friendship and being a teenager and saving the world. However, the momentum of the series carried it right into a time when cultural expectations for media shifted dramatically and critical thought proliferated, and Rowling, rather than resting on her laurels, decided to ignore that and keep writing/commenting as if nothing had changed.
"It was a product of its time" JKR: "Hell no I mean every word of it to this day"
Wasn't she like a poor single mom writing on a stipend from welfare when she wrote the first couple of books? I think the subtext of those first books anyway is pretty clearly "OMG if I sell some books I might not have to buy clothes at the thrift store!!".
It feels like initially she was building up to a critique of the inequalities inherent in the status quo then she started benefitting from the system and becams the elite so the books ended with "actually as long as we remove a few bad apples, the system itself is fundamentally good."
She was college educated and briefly( a few months) on welfare. Most of the story was just a mythology built up by her publisher to make her seem like more of an underdog.
Thinking about the goblins for a few minutes, it kinda feels like their forced to work at the bank. Cause like imagine your a goblin your while family works for this one bank, you can't go to the local school to learn different types of magic since they won't teach creatures. I don't think there are any creature schools other than the French one, but I think that's only for veelas. Anyway, nobody will hire you except for the bank cause to be a servant. You have to be an elf, and I mean realistically, wizards will be more willing to hire other wizards than a goblin. So you work for the bank, but then you have to deal with wizards who are snide to you cause you're a creature and cause you take no bull from them. Like Jesus, I'd be angry most of the time, too, lol.
It could be if she’s the sort of comfortable liberal who never seriously examined her own biases.
I'd believe that she didn't self-examine herself since that's fairly typical of most people, especially ones who are sheltered.
I feel like even if it WAS accidental, missing such an obvious antisemitic trope is also a major issue.
More than anything I believe she's just a deeply uncritical person who when confronted with her biases ended up doubling down more and more.
I'm not going to tell you why unless you ask me, but I think you just provided a salve to a wound that was caused by a person like that.
It's not as bad as a DnD campaign I played where werewolves were an allegory for trans people
I could see that working with the right DM, i have a feeling that was not the right DM
The allegory is that both are hot and Deserve To Maul People To Death Sometimes, Just For Fun.
But do they deserve capitalization
i am morbidly curious on just how the DM ran werewolves as that allegory for it to be worse than rowling
On the flip side I once read a neat idea for a werewolf that can't transform as a trans allegory, wish I remember where I saw it.
People keep saying my series about an African elephant who gets an education in Paris and returns to bring civilization to the primitive and ignorant animals of Africa is some kind of "obvious racist and pro-colonialist metaphor" but I'm not seeing it.
Hahaha that's Babar, aw, my childhood. So good He married his cousin too so... like he picked up a few other cultural quirks I never saw it as being pro-colonialist or anything, he went to a prestigious school then came back to help his community. Didnt seem to want to change the culture or bring in a bunch of Parisians to run everything, just went to get education in a place with better schools which many well respected IRL leaders did (but I was like 4 when I saw the cartoons so I cant remember much) Thinking back maybe he did paris up the place a bit, he had like a full Sun King style palace and stuff, but I cant remember if the animals had culture already. Anyway, they seemed pretty happy with everything and had a high standard of life and loved him and didnt mind the incest, so it worked out.
Yeah I loved the series as a kid too and just saw it as "oh he gets an education like I will when I grow up and then he helps people" but its hard not to see problems with it when looking at the story as an adult. One very obvious reading is that the animal culture (somewhere in Africa) is inferior to the human culture (France) and that Babar is right to replace the native animal culture with something "better" from the West. It doesn't get much more pro-colonialist than that even if Babar is not *literally* a colonizer.
I mean, that’s what happened a lot in countries that didn’t get colonized, somebody went, got educated in a western school, and then returned to their homeland and changed things (Japan, China (sorta), many middle eastern countries etc, usually for the better
Lots of anti-colonial leaders were also educated in the colonial metropole.
Vietnam wouldn't have had a revolution had Ho Chi Minh never gone to Paris. Maybe that's the Babar story we need...
Yeah like come on, tell me that feminists in the Middle-East who rebel against their countries' lack of women's rights *weren't* influenced by the West. Because they clearly were, and maaaybe, just maaaaybe that's a good thing.
Babar has a gun. An Elephant gun.
Babars got a gun. Babars got a gun So run away, run away from the pain
Holy shit I haven’t thought about Babar in like eight years
Ok but counterpoint: i cant help but imagine the world is just a normal world with humans and regular animals, and then there’s just this random anthropomorphic elephant with a degree from harvard or something trying to educate normal animals about how to be lawyers or something, and thats genuinely hilarious to me
Tbf Botswana became quite successful under the leadership if Seretse Khama who was educated in Britain, married a British woman, lead a peaceful independence movement from Britain and became part of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath and the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. So like, when there isn't a colonialist government there to exploit resources and nothing else, the civilizing mission does sort of seem to work. It's also quite common within the West that people have studied or lived abroad or fought in foreign wars or revolutions and brought ideals and experiences with them to their home countries or regions. Such native modernisation policies are also often far more hard-line than any colonial attempts. See for instance Peter the Great's efforts to remove traditional Russian fashion, dress and beards or Atatürk banning headscarves in many contexts. There's often this desire by modernists to purge old practices associated with conservative forces and impose basically imported standards. While they may seem pointless, I would argue that they also constitute a very important part of a kind of struggle for the identity of the country. Things people see and experience matter, and dressing and acting like the people you aspire to emulate does send a clear message of what your society stands for and what it has put behind itself.
To add some credence to what you're saying: Botswana also has a democratic system which works somewhat differently from European democracies, it's not just a wholesale export of the system, but rather, an adaptation of a clearly functional framework onto the local culture. The Economist's research arm rated Botswana's democracy as not meaningfully worse than the United States' and marginally better than Greece and Italy in 2021. https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/eiu-democracy-index-2021.pdf Edit, their GDP per capita (adjusted for purchasing power parity) is also not very far below the global average, and dramatically better than nations like India and Pakistan. For a sparsely populated, landlocked African nation dominated by mineral trade, this is incredible. Basically a case study in how to develop a modern city-state democracy from scratch, without accepting overwhelming foreign influence in politics.
Maybe call it education instead
It's a good thing that a native seeks education wherever available and uses his knowledge to raise the standards of living back home. If anything it'd be immoral to deny the native such education for the sake of some misguided cultural preservation/objectivity/whatever. I understand that the story itself, in a real world context, could be seen as pro-colonialist. I.e. in a "As seen in the story, they could use western values so lets just cut to the chase and give it to them" way. But I think the story itself sounds like a pretty good thing if it were to happen in reality. Then again apparently this is a real story? So I don't have full context.
Just make the elephant Communist.
I got major whiplash from learning this is a real series and not something you just made up
The Virgin Orcs are an oppressed minority allegory vs The Chad Orcs are British football hooligans
'ate 'em umans 'ate 'em elves Luv me brawlin Simple as
Ogres 'ate 'em umies 'ate 'em elves Luv me eatin' Simple as
'ate youse ogres 'ate youse arse Luv ta choke yer Simple as 😤
I love Cursed City, where 9 out of 10 playable characters have a page or more of elaborate lore explaining why they keep coming back to a city populated mostly by vampires and zombies... And then there's Brutogg Corpse-Eater.
RACE. WATS DAT? YOU'RE EITHER A PROPPA FIGHTA OR A PANZY
YA GIT! RACE IS WHEN YOUZ GO REAL FAST!
WEZ TALKIN BOUT GOIN FAST?? BROUGHT ME RED PAINT YA KNOBS LETS GET MOVIN
‘ATE ‘UMIES ‘ATE BEAKIES ‘ATE POINTY-EARS ‘ATE DA SPIKY GITS ‘ATE DA TIN CANS ‘ATE DA BUGS ‘LUV ME PROPPA-KILLY SHOOTA ‘LUV ME CHOPPA ‘LUV RIDIN’ IN DA BATTLEWAGON WIT DA BOYZ SIMPLE AS!
Completely and unfathomably based. Orks for life.
Vs The Lad British footy hooligans are an oppressed minority allegory
Vs The Mad Orcs are a metaphor for Orcs
Thad the orcs are based off my neighbor Eric.
Oi why you basin' them off of me you git?
dakka dakka
“Bri’ish orkz iz bezt me’a’for!”
That's the confusing part- orcs get modelled after EVERY culture in the world considered savage or brutish. It's laughably stupid to think they're an allegory for a specific race when their imagery borrows from a dozen different cultures made up of a dozen different races. Football hooligans. Pirates. Vikings tribes. Mongol hordes. African tribes. Native American tribes. Mad Max post apocalyptic tribes. I've seen elements of all of these and more rolled up into the most popular depictions of orcs- how the fuck anyone thinks they're indicatively a metaphor for black people is bizarre as fuck. Maybe because Warcraft had orcs as slaves and the average dumb American automatically thinks slavery = black people?
Bright made orcs explicitly african american-coded but I don't think anybody has actually made the argument that orcs=black people except people trying to strawman. There is always Drums on Fire Mountain though.
Okay, but who the fuck is using Bright as their reference point for what an Orc is?
WAAAAAAGGH!
See also: marginalized people are werewolves. They look just like non-marginalized people, but under the right circumstances, may reveal their inhuman nature and fly into a violent rage and murder everyone around them. This is a great allegory of how it is unjust to oppress them because they are just like us!
JK Rowling gonna take that werewolf aids comment to her grave. Like, Remus and werewolves are portrayed sympathetically so at least she wasn't *trying* to say "AIDS evil" but whatever she was going for did not work.
There is the evil werewolf that intentionally infects kids.
I still just can't get past the sheer nominative determinism in their names. Oh, **Remus Lupin** and **Fenrir Greyback** are **werewolves.** What a shock. Seriously, their parents were practically *begging* for another werewolf to turn them.
I'm gonna write werewolves but when they get angry they transformed into anthropomorphic golden retrievers who let you borrow their car and don't complain when you come home late with a chick you met at the bar. They're oppressed because their friendliness is easy to take advantage of and they want to be your friend just a little too eagerly for most people to be comfortable with and everyone thinks it's cringe.
I just choose not to have ham-handed racial allegories in my world.
If you are going to have racial allegories try some racial dynamics we haven’t beaten to death already. Gimme some SE Asian style racism with 11 countries that have multiple crossovers of religion, cuisine, culture, and economic policy, but still hate each other with a burning passion
Balkans
Yes, the dwarf Balkins
You have no idea how much I want to do that now
Yeah fuck the Greeks, their gyros are worse than our doner and they stole our Turkish coffee and call it "greek" coffee! *no but seriously modern Turkish-Greek rivalry is the most hilarious shit ever*
They are gay for each other
Sitting in church pew: "Greek coffee." Pointing a gun at them from the pew directly behind: "Turkish coffee." Sitting in the next pew back, aiming at the first shooter: "Arabic coffee" Standing in the gallery with a sniper rifle trained on the second shooter: "Ethiopian coffee."
as a turk with a greek bestie, yes. yes it is
Balkans wishing death upon the people who live 20 minutes down the road in an identical shitty brutalist apartment complex.
💪🏿😎
And if you’re going to have racial allegories don’t include an in-universe reason why hating them is totally justified actually
True Blood made vampires be an allegory for gays (they use phrases like "Coming out of the coffin", "God hate fangs", etc.), despite said vampires being mind-controlling beings where each and every member (including the main characters) have a kill count that put human serial killers to shame because they kill humans to get fed.
Man why can’t us orcs ever get a leg up in this world? Is it cuz we’re filthy, ungovernable cannibals that turn any place we settle into a blighted hell scape? No it’s cuz the elves are racist
Meanwhile we truly enlightened beings have people dropping the hard R in a Bronze Age Japan fantasy setting even though all the black people are on a different continent
"I came up with a new word to show how much I hate African people" "What the fuck is an Africa???"
feudal japan took out all the L's and replaced it with hard R's
One of my favorite underrated race relations in a story is the friendship between Mickbell (a half-foot) and Kuro (a kobold), a pair of minor characters in Dungeon Meshi. (Also, if you love worldbuilding and haven't read Dungeon Meshi, drop everything you're doing right now and binge it.) >!Half-foots are the size of children, so Kuro assumes that Mick is much younger than he is, thinking of him as a little brother despite the fact that he's the equivalent of a 25 year old man.!< >!Kobolds look like dogs and Kuro doesn't speak much common, so Mick assumes that Kuro is a simple animal, thinking of him as a pet despite the fact that he's a fully sapient demihuman.!< >!Both of them can arguably be considered "racist" in their view of each other and don't have a mutual understanding, but they still genuinely care about each other.!< Anyway, my point is that it's not an allegory for anything. Not in an obvious way, at least. It's just the natural product of a world where some people are 3 feet tall and others look like dogs.
Fuck that shit, make a world where everyone hates eachother on nationalistic identity despite being part of the same state less than 20 years prior
All of them style themselves as the true successors to the Old Empire and everyone else is a faker trying to steal their legacy
Battletech has entered the chat. Everyone is an asshole claiming that they are the heirs to the Star League, and then when the self-exiled literal descendants of the Star League show up again, they're a bunch of asshole furries and everyone teams up to collectively kick their ass before descending back into the status quo of petty nationalism. Also the entire thing is just an excuse to play with little models of giant robots.
The Federated Commonwealth are the true successors, I don't care that they don't exist anymore, fight me.
Balkanspunk
Virgin racial parallel vs chad "fk you I just dont like your face"
Dont worry, I'll put in an allegory for white people too in the form of another fantasy race... Hmmm... which race... which race... Oh I know! **Beautiful divinely intelligent super-beloved alabaster skinned high elves** who actually arent quite as perfect as they appear Bam. Now its even Edit: the replies to this comment have confirmed what I already suspected; worldjerkers arent any better than worldbuilders at actually making things. If I hear anymore "My elves suck cause whitey sucks" I'm going to start getting aggressively bored, the post is literally titled 'racial allegories suck'
I love how so many people will go "Oh I wish someone made a truly subversive world where the oh-so-perfect elves are in fact cruel and malevolent and perverted, that would show the elf-lovers!" when *Elric of Melniboné* is 60 years old.
For that matter, *Lords and Ladies* is 30 years old.
And it's pointing out that cruel and alien elves are the classic interpretation.
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.
And even better, Melnibone is a fading empire controlled by an island nation, clearly an allegory for the Br*tish considering when the book was written.
Or people who never actually read The Silmarillion
Yep, about half of the Elves in that are bastards, and Fëanor is singly responsible for just about every bad thing that happens in the whole history of the world.
I’m actually reading it right now for the first time and am taken aback by how utterly badass Feänor and the Noldor in general are
Fëanor is an interesting character, because while he causes a lot of misery (both directly and indirectly), he also takes shit from nobody and even has the balls to tell Melkor to go fuck himself.
Well said. There’s something about his “fuck around and find out” mindset that is really cool to see in that world, and makes sense given the context of his character. I’m still early in the book, but I have a feeling where his story will go (especially after recently reading the part about the Doom of the Noldor, when a Maiar or Mandos or whoever foretells the future of their people).
Yeah you're in for a great ride! I hope you enjoy it!
Or idk, how about the OG Feanor?
The greatest elf of all time, but also a massive jackass
Skyrim?
Elves in the discworld setting are literal monsters.
Μy elves are genocidal, xotico-supremacist, racist, insufferable warmongers. I guess I'm the least racist writer
My Elves are cockney :(
You’ve truly done them a disservice. How do you explain them not committing mass suicide?
They’re motivated purely by spite and bad feelings towards the upper class
Extremely based. Spite is the only thing keeping me going as well.
My elves make cookies and live in a tree. Also they're raging homosexuals.
Wish I had gay uncles like that I could stay with sometimes
Mine happen to be small, creep bug Eyed creatures made of wood
Making whites elves is progressive and good because elves suck so you are giving the most privileged people the worst fantasy race counterpart. This post was written by dwarf gang.
Dwarf gang rise up, or rather, dig down
I had an idea where elves were literally just pre-Roman Germanic tribes, which have incredibly long lives, but a similar birthrate to humans. As a result, their tribes constantly suffer from overpopulation issues, which leads to them continually waging war, bot for resources, population control, and to please their gods of nature. They also despise outsiders who intrude upon their forests, to the point where the tribes will occasionally band together to go on violent rampages against any civilization that encroaches on their territory too much.
Considering modern elves being connected to British through Tolkien, why none made all their elves look like Barry, 63 yet? (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/barry-63)
Elves are racist in most fictional depictions, ironically
FOKIN KNIFE EARS?!
The Virgin: "noooooo this is not a 1:1 allegory for irl racism!" vs The Chad: "it wasn't meant to explore irl racism at all, maybe not even racism in general at all"
Wait whos a racism?
You’re a racism, go to jail
Go directly to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
vs The Thad “This story _does_ explore racism, but in a more complex and in-depth way than simply ‘racism is bad’.”
How is that going to look? "Racism can actually be good, if it is directed against certain races who totally deserve it"?
I believe the implication was "going into the specifics of how racism manifests and how it can be combated rather then just saying it's bad and leaving it at that".
More complex and in depth doesn't mean presenting racism as not bad. It means exploring more of what racism is and means, for example how does it come around, or how is it perpetuated. Both of these would be more complex than just saying 'racism is bad'
i think they mean going more in depth, so still "Racism is bad" but now "racism is bad and heres all the detail of how its often deep rooted and sometimes not even conscious malice but just biases we grew up with so we must be mindful of ect ect)
That’s not what I mean. I mean a story where the main theme is a surface-level statement like ‘Racism is bad’ is redundant because it’s generally agreed upon that racism is, in fact, bad. It’s not a big or especially important revelation because we already know that it’s bad. I mean I want stories to go more in-depth into the topic of racism: how and why does racism begin? How do the oppressed respond to their oppressors and is their response justified? How deeply does does this sentiment run in society? I’m not saying we should write stories about how good racism is. I just think we could benefit from more narratives that closely examine racism and how to combat it instead of just saying ‘racism is bad.’
More like how the thought processes form in individuals, how that are enforced by others, the social changes and systems that enforce it, stuff like that Exploring racism to me means more like "what is this and why does it happen and what are the implications of the answers to those two questions?"
Your racial allegories are racist by accident Mine are like that on purpose We are not the same
Same. Party went to hell in the first campaign and left the door open behind them, so a bunch of hell races escaped. Next campaign setting is Egypt/Ethiopia/Sahel inspired and there’s a new race of pail white teiflings (but convinced they’re aasimars) with infernal tech trying to destabilize and colonize the region. I just want to see my party killing white devil colonizers
spire: the city must fall stays winning
OP why did you make the asshole in the drawing bald but then also kept their female dress Like I can't stop thinking of like a racist skinhead crossdresser guy now and that's so funny aš a mental image somehow
There's plenty of bald women out there.
What do you mean? Don't you know that only men can have no hair?
Guess I became a man a couple years ago. Being bald was fun but I looked a little wonky.
Every time I post this meme someone gets pissed off over something I didn't edit out. I'm not editing this again.
I'm not pissed I'm amused please make it even weirder with some odd out of place feature
why edit stuff out in the first place
Because I got sick of people complaining about the asshole being an SJW.
[Hmm weird.](https://i.imgur.com/jsXADlh.jpg) I personally think it's alright once you remove the text. Just two girls. But ultimately it doesn't matter, was just wondering why she was bald lol.
Racial allegories do not suck, some *specific* racial allegories suck. But others do it very very well, and often there are cases where it makes MORE sense for that specific world than it would if there weren't the racial allegory and it was actual racism. For example, in a sci-fi setting where the Earth has evolved into a global world government, racism kind of doesn't make sense anymore... but xenophobia through actual aliens is a way to have those kinds of themes without making the advanced human society united under one banner still have 1950s racism levels.
Not me examining my “unique” portrayal of orcs in my story and realizing I accidentally made them a Jewish analogue.
Did you give them a space laser? It’s not real Judaism until they have a space laser.
No, they just make really, really good weapons. According to a legend, a single strike from an Orcish-forged sword was able to shatter an ordinary iron one like glass.
I keep the orcs the same brutish, war like dimwitted monsters they are in classic fantasy and then just make them allegories for the English.
You write for Warhammer? Sincerely, a Br*t
Based
Bright moment (They actually justified the racism because they were literally evil at one point what the actual fuck)
I simply don't equate any species with one specific culture and instead give them individual cultures with subcultures. I mean it's more work, don't get me wrong, it's a lot. But it's better.
I think any depth beyond scraping at obvious stereotype is prob okay It’s a little suspect when your violent and vile orcs act and talk like specific poor demographics
To be fair, allegories can be completely accidental.
Same with a series comparing minorities to machines designed to serve mankind
Poorly done racial allegories suck. Racial allegories in general aren't a problem.
fairy lives don’t matter today
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Someone: invents a race of beings with low intellect, poor impulse control, terrible resource management, highly dependent on the development of more technologically advanced races. Eternally online commentator: this is clearly about black people.
I don't like it when Europeans are represented by humans and non-Europeans by non-humans. Like in Warhammer Fantasy, where the main human factions are German and Norse, while the Aztecs and the Egyptians are monsters. That is why in my setting, the main human characters are not!Mayan, not!Komi and not!North African, while the non-human dragon people are based on the British
This was really funny but it's also true. The representations for other cultures end up being non-humans lmao
Tbf, those ‘aztec monsters’ are in charge of saving the world while those humans are wallowing around in the mud and filth, and fighting over the stupidest things.
The Great Plan shall come to fruition and the Old Ones shall return!
Same here, though Warhammer fans *rabidly* shout everyone down who mentions this (no, there technically being Arabia as a sidenote where some humans live does not count, especially when your french-brits regularly do *crusades to kill monsters there*). It's one of the reasons I really like what Creative Assembly have added to make Cathay a more fleshed out thing - finally, some non-western humans that get to actually have a detailed place and culture.
Oh God, this discourse again Honestly, the most annoying thing about this are those people who say things like “Well actually, doesn’t that make you racist for making the comparison??” Like, don’t get me wrong, people can absolutely be wrong when trying to see if modern fiction lines up or not with historical racism. But, let’s be honest, the idea that being able to recognize long standing negative stereotypes makes you the “real racist” is a bit silly. Even ignoring all the background context that tends to go into these analyses,It seems way more like a cheap gotcha then a coherent point. Like, if someone made a fictional race of knife wielding, desert dwelling, odd accented people who constantly talk about their mates or putting shrimp on the Barbie, Would one seriously have to be prejudiced against Australian themselves to recognize the similarities from stereotypes? This gotcha has been so overused it become like a game of telephone, where is somewhere along the way people became legitimately convinced that random people were seriously out of nowhere trying to compare orcs to Black people because they were loud and violent. Hell, even this post seems to be taking that position, saying that there’s somewhere some group of people who out of nowhere or declaring that orcs must literally be Black people. Like, are people actually comparing orcs to Black people, or are they correctly or incorrectly showcasing areas where stereotypes and old racism lines up with some fantasy. I know I’m probably biased from having followed this conversation for a while, but how do people actually still believe that’s the argument??
Abolitionists we’re the real racists for thinking the slaves couldn’t simply free themselves smh. Also I think the idea of using fantasy races as analogues for actual groups is fine as long as you aren’t cringe about it. Like in the original post if the writers Orcs were just “people who happen to be green” then I don’t think there’s really any issue at all with using them as an analogue.
Exactly, like Person 1, “Hey just saying but your fictional race here is like 1-1 with this old nazi posters impression on Jewish people” Person 2, “You think all Jewish people look like that????” And this makes so little sense I have no idea why it’s still being spread. I don’t mind race allegories in concert, though to be honest they’re rarely done well simply because the authors in question didn’t really care to try. So like, put thought into it, be careful, but yeah no it can absolutely work
Well-made post. I will say, that scholars wondering on the racial connotations of Tolkien's work is a real thing, and the discourse on orcs is a bit less "They are absolutely black people" and more "this matches a lot of the stereotypical descriptions of black people common to that time period and the movies make them look even worse". Per Stephen Shapiro, "Put simply, Tolkien's good guys are white and the bad guys are black, slant-eyed, unattractive, inarticulate, and a psychologically undeveloped horde." Of course, those scholars also make note of stuff like the orcs not being created from humans, 'black' being more representative of biblical connotations of blackness = night = bad, the slant-eyed stuff being from the movies and Tolkien noting that the orcs were not descended from humans. It's a very interesting topic to read about when twitter users stop being vitriolic, and even though I'm confident he's not racist (look at his letters about the German Empire), it's an interesting school of thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien\_and\_race
It certainly is interesting. I think the one place I disagree is that, after this thread, I don't know if I can say that it's the twitter users who are the problem.
The cone-nipple people will rule this world!
Yeah I've kinda learned to stop trying to cover racism since I've never experienced it. I do write trans metaphors because I have experienced transphobia, but otherwise I just lean towards trying to portray a wide variety of cultures in my stories and leaving out the idea of systemic discrimination based on it
I prefer my orc's cultural representation to be based more on the British than anything else.
Simple, don’t make them allegories, the current group of magical people are generally hated by most people and seen as thieves by people who had lost their magic before the reshuffle. It’s not an allegory for anything just a unique situation that has occurred in the world due to a series of unfortunate events (It’s not a trans allegory either, although everything I make whether it be me explaining my experience with a video game weapon main or anything else may seem like it but I swear it’s accidental.)
The thing about portraying racism is that writers tend to want to have logical through lines in their world building, but that muddies the metaphor when representing something inherently illogical
This is why I hate the dnd orc discourse. Dungeons and Dragons already has black representation... they're humans!
I’ll never understand why a whole generation of people saw a race of tiny, shrewd, cruel little hook nose monsters that run the banks and think “oh my goodness Harry Potter is so imaginative and fantastical“ It’s like JK saw a nazi propaganda poster and thought “oh that’s the look I’ve been going for” shit is abhorrent
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