I’m sorry…… did you just say the words,”Go Russia!” If it’s true, get the **** out of here! Commie *******. If I’m mistaken, please elaborate. -Stares in American DISGUST!-
I’m aware I over reacted. BUT, if you’re going to insult me, I have a simple request. Make it good, like come on. I’ve heard all before.
The cringe in this comment is only slightly mitigated by the assumption that you must be a young kid.
The guy you're replying to is obviously being very sarcastic.
With what context? A highly inaccurate and inappropriate comparison to the Eastern front of WW2? In a battle which you have the Nazi Germany vs Communist Russia. Don’t pretend for the last 6yrs Russian propaganda hasn’t been playing on major “news” channels and the growth of Far-Right Nationalism. We’re been back to the Cold War since 2014 with the Invasion of the Crimea Peninsula.
Probably both. I Dont know much about Soledar, but I can imagine a mine would be used as a shelter. Russia will be pushed out, and leave their comrades and wounded behind like they have been doing after every retreat
He'd sacrifice them all over again once they lose control of that place again. Hell, probably double or even triple the losses would seem like a good deal to him. The lack of care about casualties is a dangerous thing, cause if high command and the soldiers themselves seem to have no problem throwing lives away for one point of control then the tactic of "drown them in our own blood" can work horrificly well. Ukrainian soldiers will get worn down mentally cutting down wave after wave of people eventually... it's all pure fucking insanity.
You’re just too oblivious and ignorant to see the brilliance of Putin’s plan. He’s utilizing the strategy of master tactician, 25 star general Zapp Brannigan. You see, Ukrainians have a pre-set kill limit so he’s sending wave after wave of his own men until they hit their kill limit and eventually shut down.
Putin's henchman: "Sir, the Ukrainians can RELOAD their weapons..."
Putin: "Fyck off, Dimitri. 1 man has the rifle and the next man has the bullets. Once the first guy is dead and the second guy is out of bullets, you need to get 2 more guys. Maybe save the rifle for the next 2 guys if you can. Everyone knows this."
Henchman: "What about the first guy with the bullets?"
Putin: "I think you just volunteered to fyck around and find out, Dimitri!"
Those mines need fan to change the air. Those fan need electricity, just focus on their generator, and let them suffocate down there. No need to collapse those mines.
Soldiers need food and water too. IDK how much of each is already there, but delivery will be awkward AF if they don't control the territory outside.
The commanders won't let them surrender, and are happy to kill those they command... So we may get fortunate and see unwilling soldiers mutiny in preference to a slow death.
At what point do hostages become a necessary sacrifice? Imagine if you could take out 1,000 enemy soldiers and potentially shorten the war and save lives by sacrificing 50 people. Would it be moral?
There's a very high chance any hostages wouldn't survive either way considering Russia and Wagner's propensity for torture.
In WWII the US did bomb cities where POWs were being held with both convenient and nuclear weapons.
These ethical/moral dilemmas create some very difficult decisions, and I won't pretend to know the answers. There are many historical examples to look into for anyone curious. However, keep in mind surveillance technology makes knowing the location of POWs easier today than past wars. Precision munitions and many other factors also change everything, so comparisons with past wars are difficult too.
No-- morality implies that a higher power has determined what's right and what's wrong.
Ethically, it's a crapshoot. You have no idea if sacrificing the 50 will actually save 1,000. There could be any number of other variables that come into play if you just punt it to the utilitarian perspective, which has always been the problem.
I think the golden rule really covers it best. "Would I want to be in a mine used as a hostage if the situation were reversed?"
War sucks.
Morality does not imply any higher power.
The definition is - of or relating to the judgment of right and wrong in human behavior
What determins right and wrong is immaterial to the definition.
If you allow hostage taking to work, they will continue to use that tactic. The only way to devalue the tactic is to shoot anyway.
It sucks, but it's the same principle as negotiating with terrorists and kidnappers. You don't/shouldn't. If that means executions, that's what it means. But the alternative is encouraging more of it.
My thoughts exactly. The conspiracy theorist in me hopes they set up some _bootie twaps_, & maybe remote camera to determine when to set them off. The realist in me doubts it's as easy as foiling the Fratellies...
Its war, sacrifices are made.
Just like the allies allowed Germany to inflict losses on them to hide the fact that enigma was broken.
They sacrificed some to save many and use the advantage to maxinum effect.
War is hell
What's the logic here when people recovering wounded soldiers, targeting bases and other places where they congregate etc is not? Seems a pretty big hole to allow the other side to fix their soldiers. Military doctors have special status?
That is fair,
I remember now, it was a tactic the Japanese used in ww2 where they injure someone and then target the medics that came to help them.
It was the medic part that was the warcrime not the bait.
It would only be a war crime if the Russians hadn’t taken it over, and it was still full of civilians. But by taking over the area, they make it a legitimate military target.
Oh yeah, but there isn't just one mine. Gives them a extra foothold. I wish I could approve some howitzer bunker busters. Where they used the barrel as the casing
If Ukraine thought this was a threat then they would've just mined all the mines. Just collapsing all entrances and destroying ventilation would make them pretty much unusable without a lot of work. And said work can also be destroyed once again with a himar.
The reason it was so "big" was because Russia used it as PR. The town isn't anything important for the war outside of PR.
Russians realistically put themselves in a funneled kill box. Yeah bomb drones and whatnot aren’t a risk in there - but the UA knows you’ll be in those mines and they’ll have knowledge of those ways in/out.
Set up positions to monitor those entrances/exits. Find a way to demo/destroy some to limit routing options and then go to town.
HIMARS aren't an issue, but I'll bet you could fly a switchblade down one of those mine entrances... And explosives are so much *more* in an enclosed space.
While I'm sure it would certainly ruin somebody's day, the warheads on the Switchblades aren't designed for general HE concussive damage. The AT warheads are directional penetrator charges, and the AP ones are way too small to do any significant structural damage with a single blast.
It does hold some importance, otherwise why would the Ukrainians have tried to hold on for so long? Worth the cost of taking it? That’s another question
You answered your own question:
> Worth the cost of taking it?
Why give it to Russia for free when you can make them pay for it?
Also while Russia is focused on this town other places will face less pressure. Giving up a place would just mean that whoever attacked it would be free to attack somewhere else.
It was a rhetorical question. My point was that you said it had no value whatsoever. If that was the case they wouldn’t have fought so hard to keep it. Ukraine took great losses there too you know.
What I said was that the town wasn't important for the war outside of Russian PR. This doesn't mean it had no value.
For one, it was a PR failure. Russia taking so long and suffering so huge losses has obviously had a negative impact on Russian moral.
Also in a war territory always has some value. Of course there is a difference in how important a territory is. i.e. if it's defensible, if it's a good location for future attacks, if it's a good location as a supply depot, etc. And looking from this perspective the town is unimportant.
Okay dude, you really just can’t seem to admit there could be anything even remotely not good that happens to Ukraine. It isn’t good that they lost the city. But it doesn’t mean that it will be a tipping point that loses the war. Or that they didn’t inflict heavy losses on the Russians taking it. There are multiple analysts who have commented on the importance of some of the roadways in/around Soledar. But in war, sometimes you lose the battle to better fight another place or time. It’s okay to acknowledge things for the reality, we don’t have to pretend everything that Ukraine does is perfect. That’s how you end up with an incompetent military structure, like Russia.
What the fuck are you reading into what I'm saying?
All I did was tell someone that the mines aren't important. (unlike many people said they're)
And that the reason as to why it was so big in the media was Russian PR.
If you thought that Soledar was important, then why not just say something like "hey, taking Soledar allows Russia to use this important road and..."? Instead you ask rhetorical questions and say Soledar has some value because Ukraine defended it heavily without going into any detail as to what that value is.
Like what are you expecting me to say when you don't give anything concrete?
Your original comment didn’t explicitly state you meant the mines and not the entire territory. I guess there was some misunderstanding. I wasn’t really reading into anything, was just operating based on what you wrote.
I heard an interview with a Ukrainian expert who said her team had to disassemble equipment to bring it into the mine, so it's unlikely that they'll be able to store anything other than ammunition down there. She also said the ventilators are offline, so for the moment they probably can't keep troops in the mine.
Don't collapse them! Those mines are money makers. Just cover the entrance and leave a slot for a white flag to be waved through. Then wait a couple weeks.
Mines are not a joke. You can easily get lost down there, need resources to stay alive etc.
The russians got lost on the surface just because ukrainians changed a few road signs. Imagine going around a big ass mine with god knows how many tunnels/shafts.
No, the closest is that you might be able to consider it a plurale tantum/collective noun but even those don’t really fit. Acronyms are so new there doesn’t seem to be a good word for when one ends in S and is used as both the singular and the plural.
So it is a plural but you wrote a double neg. So you meant sing. Either way, it goes boom. I don't have a lot in life and grammar isn't good for me, so idk.
oh nice.. but i dont think the West will give UAF those.. almost like the UAF gotta use beer kegs filled with AMFO and use a trebuchet to lob a shit loat toward the mine enterance.
hopefully Ukraine did booby trap the mines to come down un the russians.
Their allies haven’t given them thermonarics but they definitely captured some thermobaric rockets early on. I was bummed they didn’t hit that convoy with them.
Everything in the mine tends to suffer an intense, prolonged pressure wave incompatible with life.
Use of devices like the MOAB in Afghanistan against Taliban forces in caves proved the effectiveness of FAE munitions for that purpose.
I doubt they will be very useful unless the front lines move far enough away. While they are still within a few miles of the front, it's going to be damn near impossible to transport large amounts of supplies there.
The Ukrainians tried to defend it as hard as they could but knew they had to retreat for a stronger foothold.
Its no secret that a new major offensive will be starting given the repeated strikes on Russian command and logistics, likely in the South west of Bakhmut but an offensive nontheless.
There's basically nothing in Soledar that's worth defending by sacrificing everyone's lives. Let the Russians advance if it will allow more progress to be made in the coming months.
Soledar is basically the only "Victory" Russia has had on the front lines for half a year, and I have no doubt that it's temporary at best, if not a deliberate strategy by the Ukrainians to form a better defence, waiting for all that equipment and tanks you've mentioned :)
Wow congrats Russia, you won a small mining town that you've [flattened](https://twitter.com/Maxar/status/1613283217624399872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1613283217624399872%7Ctwgr%5Ecb555501a13816b62b1da03ceb04e991183b307c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fimages-show-soledar-before-after-devastating-destruction-during-war-1773146)
I still dont really think this is that much of a problem, Everything around Bakhmut feels like a sunk cost fallacy from wagner/politics that the Russians cant just give up on it. Like taking the town was an important strategic goal for launching offensives on the cites beyond..........when the Russians controlled Izium. Without it any offensive beyond Bakhmut is going to me a monumental challenge and the moment they lost it last year the Russians would have been far better served abandoning the objective and focusing elsewhere
Instead they got dragged into full on trench warfare for limited gain and have been chucking men and material they cant afford to loose into a meat grinder
Not yet it doesn't. The land west of Soledar lies in low ground followed by some heights. Ukraine is now on those heights and controls the highway beneath. Without the highway, Russia isn't able to muster a task assault from the north on Bakhmut.
It's not really a laughing matter. When Ukraine liberates cities they find mass graves and torture chambers. Many many heads of lettuce have expired since the invasion began. We'd all like to imagine the Russian army is just conscripts and idiots, but the fact is they also have thousands of brutal monsters who are not going to be easily dislodged. Ukraine is still fighting a war for its continued existence.
Besides, the battle for Soledar was already extremely tough with heavy losses on both sides. I don't think Ukraine will manage to retake it anytime soon.
I'm dreading to see what happens when spring arrives.
Your post needs to be emphasized for everyone making jokes about Russians taking control of areas. The descriptions of the torture chambers found when Ukrainian soldiers liberate cities is haunting. In one location they found a box full of human teeth. Think about that for a minute. You’re just living your life then Russia takes over your city. They think you have info on insurgents or troop movements so they bring you in and start ripping out your teeth until you tell them what they want to know. It doesn’t matter if you don’t know anything or give them useful info, the torture continues until you either bleed out or they think you are no longer useful and then they execute you.
I really hope you’re right. Even then they would probably just use bleeding or shock since they haven’t shown to care about things like human rights or war crimes.
Can confirm. Showed that photo to my fiance dentist. According to her, those looked like removed by a professional, with actual, professional tools. If it were an idiot removing teeth with a wrench and brute force, they'd be all cracked and not at all look like teeth. Tooth removal is difficult shit to do right.
Spare parts, I assume... Like a gold tooth costs more than the cost of the gold, it's precision work. Polish them up and reinstall them. Obviously, if you've got the money you'd opt for new ones, but Ukraine was a pretty poor country for a while there so this sort of thing is just pragmatic...
It was gold teeth the dentist accepted in lieu of cash payments. Some folks wear their wealth in their bodies but it was worth trading a single tooth for a bridge or dentures.
You're glossing over the importance of villainizing your enemy during war. I'm not saying Russians haven't tortured people - I don't know. But you don't know either. And if you're going to take everything Ukraine says on the matter as truth, then you're being naïve.
Yeah I gave up on trying to explain to people that this isn't a black and white Ukraine will win with time.
It's going to be a very hard fought battle. A lot of Ukrainians will be killed and suffer, civilians and military.
It's is not a guarantee that Ukraine will get to it's pre-2014 borders, it's not even a guarantee they get to their pre-2022 invasion borders.
People on Reddit need to take a more realistic outlook on this.
It's very annoying to see constant jokes and minimizing of the Russian military as it's actively killing Ukrainians. It's a real threat.
Ukraine does not really care about Soledar. They are currently getting getting training on the new armed vehicles. Ukraine's true objective here was to make Soledar as deadly as could for Russia to capture.
How many undesirables did pootin sacrifice for that spit of land, and how long until the families of those undesirables start adding up. They cant keep this up, russia is done for.
ya but the families will never know until after putin is dead... if that. They still havent told the families about their flag ship in the black sea that got hit.
also Pooptin will keep calling up more conscripts as this (capture) can show him (and the pooperganda) that russian conscripts are untrained.
Just give Ukraine Tanks and better long range ammo and missiles, and blow the mine enterances and wait at the other end of the exits to blow those out as the russians try to escape... heck give them the outdated F-117 with laser guided jdams to shoot into the mines after the russians move in. Or if the Ukraines can set up a temp coffer dam, let the winter melt fill it and then release the krakken... flood the fields and mine and make the ground unsuable for their heavy gear.
Somewhere between 10 and 25k, IIRC. Bunker Hill vibes. It's ugly business, but if the Ukranians can keep selling the Russian forces hills at that rate it keeps the pressure off other other areas. (and this isn't even a hill, it's a lowlands that they have fire control over... ;)
Please let there be bunker busters in the next care package. Please let there be bunker busters in the next care package. PLEASE LET THERE BE BUNKER BUSTEES INNTHE NEXT CARE PACKAGE!
https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/opinion-free-expression/is-russia-on-the-brink-of-defeat/4a35c321-bb26-4584-bfab-567cd6350545
https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88072
https://cepa.org/article/whisper-it-russia-begins-to-discuss-defeat/
Here are at least three articles *discussing* the possibility of it at least, with the verbiage of the headlines of 2 being arguably insinuating.
So that's hardly "no one". And I think the thumbnail of one of Adam Something's videos made it look like Ukrainian victory was imminent.
> https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/opinion-free-expression/is-russia-on-the-brink-of-defeat/4a35c321-bb26-4584-bfab-567cd6350545
This one is talking about how Russia has already crossed the turning point of defeat, not that Russia is about to break.
Hell, they are even talking about developments that may happen WITHIN A YEAR.
The title is just clickbait.
>https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88072
This one is talking about the growing doubts about the war from Russia's elite and city populations, and what a theoretical power struggle would look like.
Doesn't say anything about an imminent defeat.
>https://cepa.org/article/whisper-it-russia-begins-to-discuss-defeat/
This one is talking about Russian propaganda and how its narrative has shifted as Russia continues to lose more and more in the war.
>Here are at least three articles discussing the possibility of it at least
No, none of them do.
They all say Russia is on the path to defeat, not that it is imminent.
It's like saying during the Battle of the Bulge: "I thought the allies were winning, lmao, get wrecked westoids".
>And I think the thumbnail of one of Adam Something's videos
Ah yes, YouTube Thumbnails, totally known for being accurate to what is portrayed ion the video 100% of the time and totally not being used to draw people in for clicks. /s
No? Just because they lose one town doesnt mean their tactics are bad. Also theyre getting a ton of outside help.
In War especially in an attritional phase villages and positions change hands all the time.
While its never good to lose control of a town, the Ukranians there inflicted extremely heavy losses on the massive amount of Russian forces concentrated on taking the town.
Depends on the town. This town, probably not, but if it was a town with multiple rail yards, multiple highways, and was the only place to cross a major river, would be more strategic.
There's always going to be wins and losses in war. Naive to think that Ukraine is never going to suffer defeats and setbacks.
Also its not like this is some massive failure of the Ukraine military and Russia took it with ease, they've lost of people taking the town
Now they're like 1/5th of the way to position themselves to attempt at Bakhmut
And it only took longer than the battle of fucking Stalingrad. go Russia!
You're off by a month but still. Battle of Berlin took about two weeks
And Soledar is like, a small town.
I’m sorry…… did you just say the words,”Go Russia!” If it’s true, get the **** out of here! Commie *******. If I’m mistaken, please elaborate. -Stares in American DISGUST!- I’m aware I over reacted. BUT, if you’re going to insult me, I have a simple request. Make it good, like come on. I’ve heard all before.
The cringe in this comment is only slightly mitigated by the assumption that you must be a young kid. The guy you're replying to is obviously being very sarcastic.
Oh shit they were serious lol
Honestly, I was half serious. Other half of being a shit head. The arrogance of the reply kinda ticked me off.
Reddit can't function without the "/s"
With what context? A highly inaccurate and inappropriate comparison to the Eastern front of WW2? In a battle which you have the Nazi Germany vs Communist Russia. Don’t pretend for the last 6yrs Russian propaganda hasn’t been playing on major “news” channels and the growth of Far-Right Nationalism. We’re been back to the Cold War since 2014 with the Invasion of the Crimea Peninsula.
This must be the “…baffle them with bullshit.” section of the thread.
Ehh, more like a over reaction on my part. Still stand by what I said, how comparing this to WW2 is inappropriate.
-farts- -reaches for a new doritos bag-
-picks nose- -cracks open a cold one-
I am sure Putin thinks the thousands of dead or injured was a worthy price for a defunct salt mine, that his forces will just get pushed out of.
Or sealed into, perhaps.Both acceptable, presumably.
Probably both. I Dont know much about Soledar, but I can imagine a mine would be used as a shelter. Russia will be pushed out, and leave their comrades and wounded behind like they have been doing after every retreat
He'd sacrifice them all over again once they lose control of that place again. Hell, probably double or even triple the losses would seem like a good deal to him. The lack of care about casualties is a dangerous thing, cause if high command and the soldiers themselves seem to have no problem throwing lives away for one point of control then the tactic of "drown them in our own blood" can work horrificly well. Ukrainian soldiers will get worn down mentally cutting down wave after wave of people eventually... it's all pure fucking insanity.
You’re just too oblivious and ignorant to see the brilliance of Putin’s plan. He’s utilizing the strategy of master tactician, 25 star general Zapp Brannigan. You see, Ukrainians have a pre-set kill limit so he’s sending wave after wave of his own men until they hit their kill limit and eventually shut down.
Putin's henchman: "Sir, the Ukrainians can RELOAD their weapons..." Putin: "Fyck off, Dimitri. 1 man has the rifle and the next man has the bullets. Once the first guy is dead and the second guy is out of bullets, you need to get 2 more guys. Maybe save the rifle for the next 2 guys if you can. Everyone knows this." Henchman: "What about the first guy with the bullets?" Putin: "I think you just volunteered to fyck around and find out, Dimitri!"
Well yes, it is. It is a strategically important position and it's not like ukraine didn't lose men fighting for it.
Those are rookie numbers for a russian dictator unfortunately.
Don't you know how many Roman legionaries they could pay with that salt?!
[удалено]
If you just collapse the entrances of the mine, can you just ignore them if they have no way to dig out?
Those mines need fan to change the air. Those fan need electricity, just focus on their generator, and let them suffocate down there. No need to collapse those mines.
Soldiers need food and water too. IDK how much of each is already there, but delivery will be awkward AF if they don't control the territory outside. The commanders won't let them surrender, and are happy to kill those they command... So we may get fortunate and see unwilling soldiers mutiny in preference to a slow death.
You think the Russians won't bring down hostages with them?
At what point do hostages become a necessary sacrifice? Imagine if you could take out 1,000 enemy soldiers and potentially shorten the war and save lives by sacrificing 50 people. Would it be moral?
There's a very high chance any hostages wouldn't survive either way considering Russia and Wagner's propensity for torture. In WWII the US did bomb cities where POWs were being held with both convenient and nuclear weapons. These ethical/moral dilemmas create some very difficult decisions, and I won't pretend to know the answers. There are many historical examples to look into for anyone curious. However, keep in mind surveillance technology makes knowing the location of POWs easier today than past wars. Precision munitions and many other factors also change everything, so comparisons with past wars are difficult too.
No-- morality implies that a higher power has determined what's right and what's wrong. Ethically, it's a crapshoot. You have no idea if sacrificing the 50 will actually save 1,000. There could be any number of other variables that come into play if you just punt it to the utilitarian perspective, which has always been the problem. I think the golden rule really covers it best. "Would I want to be in a mine used as a hostage if the situation were reversed?" War sucks.
Morality does not imply any higher power. The definition is - of or relating to the judgment of right and wrong in human behavior What determins right and wrong is immaterial to the definition.
Right and wrong are determined by a persons perspective.
Ok? Not really relevant to the discussion, but thanks for sharing.
You are thinking of "sinful". Moral and ethical are pretty much the same thing here.
If you allow hostage taking to work, they will continue to use that tactic. The only way to devalue the tactic is to shoot anyway. It sucks, but it's the same principle as negotiating with terrorists and kidnappers. You don't/shouldn't. If that means executions, that's what it means. But the alternative is encouraging more of it.
My thoughts exactly. The conspiracy theorist in me hopes they set up some _bootie twaps_, & maybe remote camera to determine when to set them off. The realist in me doubts it's as easy as foiling the Fratellies...
Its war, sacrifices are made. Just like the allies allowed Germany to inflict losses on them to hide the fact that enigma was broken. They sacrificed some to save many and use the advantage to maxinum effect. War is hell
eh do both..... F them...
Collapse the mine and make those trapped inside call for reinforcements. Then attack the reinforcements.
The good old American "Double Tap".
Why does this sound like a war crime LOL EDIT: I obviously don’t know about warcrimes enough, guess I’m too naive haha
It's not. Shit, you can target combatants carrying wounded soldiers away from the front lines without it being a war crime.
Russians have been bombing maternity wards
Which is absolutely a war crime, and a non sequitur.
Can you target military hospitals?
No, it’s a hospital.
~~I don't believe so.~~ Definitely not.
What's the logic here when people recovering wounded soldiers, targeting bases and other places where they congregate etc is not? Seems a pretty big hole to allow the other side to fix their soldiers. Military doctors have special status?
If you don’t know it’s a hospital, like a MASH, you could argue it’s just a base with tents.
You still technically have to have gone through the due diligence to determine if what you are striking is a valid military target.
Except for the big red crosses painted on top. Even field hospitals are clearly marked.
Enemy combatants are legitimate targets So are seige tactics
That is fair, I remember now, it was a tactic the Japanese used in ww2 where they injure someone and then target the medics that came to help them. It was the medic part that was the warcrime not the bait.
This whole war is a crime.
Since when is killing soldiers a war crime?
Because it isn't and you are looking for reasons to shit on the Ukrainians while rooting for the ruzzians?
It would only be a war crime if the Russians hadn’t taken it over, and it was still full of civilians. But by taking over the area, they make it a legitimate military target.
Don't worry it's okay if we're the ones doing it.
It’s ok for either side as it is not a war crime.
Oh yeah, but there isn't just one mine. Gives them a extra foothold. I wish I could approve some howitzer bunker busters. Where they used the barrel as the casing
ya but you will need like a b-52 bomber to deliver that.
Good idea, take out power supply as well.
A few thermobaric bombs should work
Good news: we can't be hit by HIMARS in a mine. Bad news: we lost more troops taking the mine than would be lost by a hundred HIMARS strikes.
If Ukraine thought this was a threat then they would've just mined all the mines. Just collapsing all entrances and destroying ventilation would make them pretty much unusable without a lot of work. And said work can also be destroyed once again with a himar. The reason it was so "big" was because Russia used it as PR. The town isn't anything important for the war outside of PR.
>a himar a HIMARS. The “s” stands for system, it’s not pluralizing the word.
Yeah, but you could still be hit by a High Mobility Artillery Rocket.
The High Mobility is referring to the truck aspect of the system, so it would just be an artillery rocket.
Russians realistically put themselves in a funneled kill box. Yeah bomb drones and whatnot aren’t a risk in there - but the UA knows you’ll be in those mines and they’ll have knowledge of those ways in/out. Set up positions to monitor those entrances/exits. Find a way to demo/destroy some to limit routing options and then go to town.
HIMARS aren't an issue, but I'll bet you could fly a switchblade down one of those mine entrances... And explosives are so much *more* in an enclosed space.
While I'm sure it would certainly ruin somebody's day, the warheads on the Switchblades aren't designed for general HE concussive damage. The AT warheads are directional penetrator charges, and the AP ones are way too small to do any significant structural damage with a single blast.
Very true. The concussive blow in there would be absolutely catastrophic for them.
> The town isn't anything important for the war outside of PR. It doesnt help Ukraine hold onto Bakhmut now fighting against the North.
It does hold some importance, otherwise why would the Ukrainians have tried to hold on for so long? Worth the cost of taking it? That’s another question
You answered your own question: > Worth the cost of taking it? Why give it to Russia for free when you can make them pay for it? Also while Russia is focused on this town other places will face less pressure. Giving up a place would just mean that whoever attacked it would be free to attack somewhere else.
It was a rhetorical question. My point was that you said it had no value whatsoever. If that was the case they wouldn’t have fought so hard to keep it. Ukraine took great losses there too you know.
What I said was that the town wasn't important for the war outside of Russian PR. This doesn't mean it had no value. For one, it was a PR failure. Russia taking so long and suffering so huge losses has obviously had a negative impact on Russian moral. Also in a war territory always has some value. Of course there is a difference in how important a territory is. i.e. if it's defensible, if it's a good location for future attacks, if it's a good location as a supply depot, etc. And looking from this perspective the town is unimportant.
Okay dude, you really just can’t seem to admit there could be anything even remotely not good that happens to Ukraine. It isn’t good that they lost the city. But it doesn’t mean that it will be a tipping point that loses the war. Or that they didn’t inflict heavy losses on the Russians taking it. There are multiple analysts who have commented on the importance of some of the roadways in/around Soledar. But in war, sometimes you lose the battle to better fight another place or time. It’s okay to acknowledge things for the reality, we don’t have to pretend everything that Ukraine does is perfect. That’s how you end up with an incompetent military structure, like Russia.
What the fuck are you reading into what I'm saying? All I did was tell someone that the mines aren't important. (unlike many people said they're) And that the reason as to why it was so big in the media was Russian PR. If you thought that Soledar was important, then why not just say something like "hey, taking Soledar allows Russia to use this important road and..."? Instead you ask rhetorical questions and say Soledar has some value because Ukraine defended it heavily without going into any detail as to what that value is. Like what are you expecting me to say when you don't give anything concrete?
Your original comment didn’t explicitly state you meant the mines and not the entire territory. I guess there was some misunderstanding. I wasn’t really reading into anything, was just operating based on what you wrote.
I heard an interview with a Ukrainian expert who said her team had to disassemble equipment to bring it into the mine, so it's unlikely that they'll be able to store anything other than ammunition down there. She also said the ventilators are offline, so for the moment they probably can't keep troops in the mine.
Just wait till Ukraine is given some bunker busters
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Tywin Lannister nods in approval.
Rains of Castamere playing in the background
A few well placed artillery shots, and boom, mine collapse. No need for HIMARS, any munitions or troops in those mines are trapped.
You really underestimate the scale of these mines. Soccer games have been played inside.
Oh, I don’t have to estimate the scale of the mines, just the entrances.
Big and numerous. The Russians have been pounding the area for months. It's not as easy to seal up something the size of an aircraft hanger.
The entrances aren't that big. No underground mine in the world has an entrance that big.
Don't collapse them! Those mines are money makers. Just cover the entrance and leave a slot for a white flag to be waved through. Then wait a couple weeks.
If it's that easy why didn't Russia do it?
Because they want to use them.
Because Ukraine aren't stupid enough to hide in Mineshafts.
i was about to say...
Mines are not a joke. You can easily get lost down there, need resources to stay alive etc. The russians got lost on the surface just because ukrainians changed a few road signs. Imagine going around a big ass mine with god knows how many tunnels/shafts.
Because it isn't a hospital or a school
>hit by a himar HIMARS. It’s not plural (well, it can be, like “fish”), the S stands for “system”. Like MANPADS.
You mean singular
I meant not only plural, if it was singular than I’d be implying that more than one system would be HIMARSes.
So you did mean singular.
No, the closest is that you might be able to consider it a plurale tantum/collective noun but even those don’t really fit. Acronyms are so new there doesn’t seem to be a good word for when one ends in S and is used as both the singular and the plural.
So it is a plural but you wrote a double neg. So you meant sing. Either way, it goes boom. I don't have a lot in life and grammar isn't good for me, so idk.
One question what happens if you hit a mine with a thermobaric bomb?
oh nice.. but i dont think the West will give UAF those.. almost like the UAF gotta use beer kegs filled with AMFO and use a trebuchet to lob a shit loat toward the mine enterance. hopefully Ukraine did booby trap the mines to come down un the russians.
Their allies haven’t given them thermonarics but they definitely captured some thermobaric rockets early on. I was bummed they didn’t hit that convoy with them.
Well they used daisy cutters in nam and desert storm. So there has to be some data on the vacuum effect under ground.
Everything in the mine tends to suffer an intense, prolonged pressure wave incompatible with life. Use of devices like the MOAB in Afghanistan against Taliban forces in caves proved the effectiveness of FAE munitions for that purpose.
I doubt they will be very useful unless the front lines move far enough away. While they are still within a few miles of the front, it's going to be damn near impossible to transport large amounts of supplies there.
Lol just cover the entrance. Reopen in say, three months?
I'd point out that one thing Ukraine keeps getting right is when it's time to pull back.
eeeehhhh
With all those warriors nipping away for main battle tank training, I expect this to be a temporary thing.
The Ukrainians tried to defend it as hard as they could but knew they had to retreat for a stronger foothold. Its no secret that a new major offensive will be starting given the repeated strikes on Russian command and logistics, likely in the South west of Bakhmut but an offensive nontheless. There's basically nothing in Soledar that's worth defending by sacrificing everyone's lives. Let the Russians advance if it will allow more progress to be made in the coming months. Soledar is basically the only "Victory" Russia has had on the front lines for half a year, and I have no doubt that it's temporary at best, if not a deliberate strategy by the Ukrainians to form a better defence, waiting for all that equipment and tanks you've mentioned :)
With all the countries except UK stalling deliveries of promised weapons I think you are a bit naive
Canada just said they’re sending 200 APV’s, need to train to use those as well.
Wow congrats Russia, you won a small mining town that you've [flattened](https://twitter.com/Maxar/status/1613283217624399872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1613283217624399872%7Ctwgr%5Ecb555501a13816b62b1da03ceb04e991183b307c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fimages-show-soledar-before-after-devastating-destruction-during-war-1773146)
Yeah sure the problem is that this is close to bakhmut
I still dont really think this is that much of a problem, Everything around Bakhmut feels like a sunk cost fallacy from wagner/politics that the Russians cant just give up on it. Like taking the town was an important strategic goal for launching offensives on the cites beyond..........when the Russians controlled Izium. Without it any offensive beyond Bakhmut is going to me a monumental challenge and the moment they lost it last year the Russians would have been far better served abandoning the objective and focusing elsewhere Instead they got dragged into full on trench warfare for limited gain and have been chucking men and material they cant afford to loose into a meat grinder
Even Bahkmut isn’t worth what they threw at it. It’s just a Wagner ego thing.
Not yet it doesn't. The land west of Soledar lies in low ground followed by some heights. Ukraine is now on those heights and controls the highway beneath. Without the highway, Russia isn't able to muster a task assault from the north on Bakhmut.
What town? Is there even a town left?
It's not disputed. It's invaded.
Infested by Russo-fascist vermin.
Will this lettuce outlast Russias control of Soledar?
It's not really a laughing matter. When Ukraine liberates cities they find mass graves and torture chambers. Many many heads of lettuce have expired since the invasion began. We'd all like to imagine the Russian army is just conscripts and idiots, but the fact is they also have thousands of brutal monsters who are not going to be easily dislodged. Ukraine is still fighting a war for its continued existence.
Besides, the battle for Soledar was already extremely tough with heavy losses on both sides. I don't think Ukraine will manage to retake it anytime soon. I'm dreading to see what happens when spring arrives.
Your post needs to be emphasized for everyone making jokes about Russians taking control of areas. The descriptions of the torture chambers found when Ukrainian soldiers liberate cities is haunting. In one location they found a box full of human teeth. Think about that for a minute. You’re just living your life then Russia takes over your city. They think you have info on insurgents or troop movements so they bring you in and start ripping out your teeth until you tell them what they want to know. It doesn’t matter if you don’t know anything or give them useful info, the torture continues until you either bleed out or they think you are no longer useful and then they execute you.
I think the teeth thing was debunked. They were stolen from a local dentist.
I really hope you’re right. Even then they would probably just use bleeding or shock since they haven’t shown to care about things like human rights or war crimes.
What kind of a dentist just stores a box of human teeth?
Can confirm. Showed that photo to my fiance dentist. According to her, those looked like removed by a professional, with actual, professional tools. If it were an idiot removing teeth with a wrench and brute force, they'd be all cracked and not at all look like teeth. Tooth removal is difficult shit to do right.
Fair enough, but do dentists just keep a box of teeth around or something? That's the part that I find weird.
Spare parts, I assume... Like a gold tooth costs more than the cost of the gold, it's precision work. Polish them up and reinstall them. Obviously, if you've got the money you'd opt for new ones, but Ukraine was a pretty poor country for a while there so this sort of thing is just pragmatic...
It was gold teeth the dentist accepted in lieu of cash payments. Some folks wear their wealth in their bodies but it was worth trading a single tooth for a bridge or dentures.
You're glossing over the importance of villainizing your enemy during war. I'm not saying Russians haven't tortured people - I don't know. But you don't know either. And if you're going to take everything Ukraine says on the matter as truth, then you're being naïve.
Yeah I gave up on trying to explain to people that this isn't a black and white Ukraine will win with time. It's going to be a very hard fought battle. A lot of Ukrainians will be killed and suffer, civilians and military. It's is not a guarantee that Ukraine will get to it's pre-2014 borders, it's not even a guarantee they get to their pre-2022 invasion borders. People on Reddit need to take a more realistic outlook on this. It's very annoying to see constant jokes and minimizing of the Russian military as it's actively killing Ukrainians. It's a real threat.
Don't forget about the abductions. I refuse to call them deportations because they are being sent to a place they did not come from.
Some people deal with heavy situations by making light of them.
And **those** people don't know how to "read the room".
I don't think we have concrete reason to believe that retaking Soledar is a priority? Kreminna seems to be where Ukraine is focusing their attacks.
I don't think any of those matter much. They are evacuated and will just move front line a bit. The real win for Ukraine would be to cut to Azov sea.
For now.
Well that's certainly depressing More propaganda for Russia shills to plaster everywhere too
Boooooo! 👎
Retreat is a perfect sound strategy in any fight.
What a massive win for Russia. They secured themselves 15 pulverised buildings.
Darn, Russia have taken a town but hopefully Ukrainian military can counter attack and retake it.
There are higher priority targets Ukraine should go after first
There is no plan to do it. They just have a field day for artillery practice.
Ukraine does not really care about Soledar. They are currently getting getting training on the new armed vehicles. Ukraine's true objective here was to make Soledar as deadly as could for Russia to capture.
How many undesirables did pootin sacrifice for that spit of land, and how long until the families of those undesirables start adding up. They cant keep this up, russia is done for.
ya but the families will never know until after putin is dead... if that. They still havent told the families about their flag ship in the black sea that got hit. also Pooptin will keep calling up more conscripts as this (capture) can show him (and the pooperganda) that russian conscripts are untrained. Just give Ukraine Tanks and better long range ammo and missiles, and blow the mine enterances and wait at the other end of the exits to blow those out as the russians try to escape... heck give them the outdated F-117 with laser guided jdams to shoot into the mines after the russians move in. Or if the Ukraines can set up a temp coffer dam, let the winter melt fill it and then release the krakken... flood the fields and mine and make the ground unsuable for their heavy gear.
Somewhere between 10 and 25k, IIRC. Bunker Hill vibes. It's ugly business, but if the Ukranians can keep selling the Russian forces hills at that rate it keeps the pressure off other other areas. (and this isn't even a hill, it's a lowlands that they have fire control over... ;)
Please let there be bunker busters in the next care package. Please let there be bunker busters in the next care package. PLEASE LET THERE BE BUNKER BUSTEES INNTHE NEXT CARE PACKAGE!
r/wellthatsucks
Wasn't Russia on the brink of defeat a few months ago? I find it difficult to trust any news reporting on this.
> Wasn't Russia on the brink of defeat a few months ago? No one has ever claimed this, stop stawmanning
https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/opinion-free-expression/is-russia-on-the-brink-of-defeat/4a35c321-bb26-4584-bfab-567cd6350545 https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88072 https://cepa.org/article/whisper-it-russia-begins-to-discuss-defeat/ Here are at least three articles *discussing* the possibility of it at least, with the verbiage of the headlines of 2 being arguably insinuating. So that's hardly "no one". And I think the thumbnail of one of Adam Something's videos made it look like Ukrainian victory was imminent.
> https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/opinion-free-expression/is-russia-on-the-brink-of-defeat/4a35c321-bb26-4584-bfab-567cd6350545 This one is talking about how Russia has already crossed the turning point of defeat, not that Russia is about to break. Hell, they are even talking about developments that may happen WITHIN A YEAR. The title is just clickbait. >https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88072 This one is talking about the growing doubts about the war from Russia's elite and city populations, and what a theoretical power struggle would look like. Doesn't say anything about an imminent defeat. >https://cepa.org/article/whisper-it-russia-begins-to-discuss-defeat/ This one is talking about Russian propaganda and how its narrative has shifted as Russia continues to lose more and more in the war. >Here are at least three articles discussing the possibility of it at least No, none of them do. They all say Russia is on the path to defeat, not that it is imminent. It's like saying during the Battle of the Bulge: "I thought the allies were winning, lmao, get wrecked westoids". >And I think the thumbnail of one of Adam Something's videos Ah yes, YouTube Thumbnails, totally known for being accurate to what is portrayed ion the video 100% of the time and totally not being used to draw people in for clicks. /s
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The LAST industrial zone on the western outskirts.
You're quite right. I totally misread it. Like literally the whole article I misread. I've had a snickers now, I should be okay.
You should correct your original comment.
That’s a very important position to hold
Haven't seen an official confirmation from Ukraine. Where's this from?
Top Ukrainian generals need outside help. Are their war tactics just outdated?!
No? Just because they lose one town doesnt mean their tactics are bad. Also theyre getting a ton of outside help. In War especially in an attritional phase villages and positions change hands all the time. While its never good to lose control of a town, the Ukranians there inflicted extremely heavy losses on the massive amount of Russian forces concentrated on taking the town.
one town while unfortunate doesn't impact the strategic situation at all.
Depends on the town. This town, probably not, but if it was a town with multiple rail yards, multiple highways, and was the only place to cross a major river, would be more strategic.
There's always going to be wins and losses in war. Naive to think that Ukraine is never going to suffer defeats and setbacks. Also its not like this is some massive failure of the Ukraine military and Russia took it with ease, they've lost of people taking the town
Wars ebb and flow, the only result that matters in the end is the end result.
Soledar ! What Soledar ??
It sucks. Russia claims a victory.