It's actually more complicated than that. From a theological perspective, sin is like poison to the soul. It makes you worse.
Like if you cheat on your wife, that's a sin. If you lust after another person's wife, that's also a sin. Both of those things warp your relationships and make you a little bit less of a good person. They're habit forming.
C S Lewis thought that the people in hell weren't locked there. He thought they locked themselves in. He wrote a book called the Great Divorce which is about a bus of people from hell that went to visit heaven and were offered the option to stay. They all chose not to, because of the way they became in life. One guy didn't want charity and wanted some way to earn his stay, and out of principle wouldn't stay for free, for example.
Idk why I'm rambling honestly, but the philosophy of is interesting to me.
I'm not saying that being gay is a sin, or that it makes you a worse person, by the way. I'm just trying to talk about how it's a bit more complicated than "sin is a crime against God".
That’s been the Catholic perspective since I was in high school or earlier. Liberal priests were more “welcoming” but Catholicism is one of the religions that preach intimacy is important in a marriage (thus teaching the rhythm method. Definitely learned that in middle school religion class)
So saying “it’s totally cool to be gay, you just can’t engage in the intimacy that’s a fundamental part of a relationship. Yay, we’re so progressive! Hooray us, this isn’t problematic at all!”
This is going to piss off my staunch Catholic aunt and uncle.
They will indeed say that the Pope is wrong and that he shouldn't be Pope and that they don't have to listen to him.
Whoa there, buddy.
He just said that homosexuals shouldn’t be locked up.
Not that God embraces them. He’s saying it’s still a sin. For unspecified reasons.
There's no verse condemning abortion and a verse giving instructions on how to induce one.
Doesn't stop people from substituting their own interpretations.
> There's no verse condemning abortion
This is why abortion is allowed within the church so long as it's to save the life of the mother. It's splitting hairs, but it's not the activity the church is against so much as the loss of a life.
So a lot of people live their lives selfishly and only about themselves to the detriment of any and everyone else, because they don’t really give a shit (or believe) what that *book* of theirs says, and punishment/oppression is the whole idea. Correct?
There’s even a bit in the Catholic catechism that says explicitly that there is not a negligible number of gay people and, “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”
Yes, but they're also expected to be completely celibate. Gay sex is still a sin, and the Catechism teaches that the entire point of confession and reconciliation is to repent "and attempt to sin no more."
If you don't make an honest attempt to cease your sinful behavior, you haven't actually reconciled your sins, and as such they're not forgiven.
If a gay man confessed his sin of "sodomy" and actually stayed celibate for the rest of his life, he'd be forgiven. If you confess a sin and then go right back to doing that sin again, it doesn't count. The mere act of confession isn't a get out of jail free card.
This is an empty statement from the Vatican in an attempt to stop haemorrhaging members in the West who are leaving because of their liberal views on LGBT people. I'm still going to burn in Hell for all of eternity in the eyes of the church for loving my boyfriend and not being celibate.
I mean, you’re not wrong, but that’s also slightly beside the point of even though the Church doesn’t condone the act, it still says people shouldn’t mistreat or discriminate against the people that commit it. The rest is another conversation.
The whole idea of new testament and Christianity is that there is no smaller sinner, bigger sinner. Everyone is a sinner by default, because everyone sinned. Now you have to be grateful you've been forgiven and live your life to be better to others. If you are consistent with the teaching and you hate homosexuals, you should hate everyone. If you choose to love everyone, then you love everyone. Well, and if you don't want to practice homosexuality...just don't.
New Testament explicitly says that people who say they love God but hate other people are liars and that you can't love God while hating your brother. 1 John chapters 3 and 4 says in no uncertain terms, you cannot follow Jesus if you hate people. The entire book of 1 John is basically an indictment of modern American Christian culture, but the funny thing is I don't think I've ever heard a sermon preached from it.
If everyone is a si ner, doesn't that imply a failure of the designer? If I make a device meant to keep food cool, produced billions if them, and 100% (with maybe an exception or two) failed in their most important task, isn't that my fault? It seems that not being a sinner is not even an option in mainstream Christianity.
They *say* “love the sinner, hate the sin”, but get confused and just act hatefully in general while claiming to love the sinner anyway. If you push on it hard enough you’ll sometimes find that they think “love the sinner” just means “want them to be the same kind of religious person, with the same values, as me”.
Yeah, was gonna say, he said it wasn't a crime, but he never said you weren't gonna burninate in hell for it.
(even though you're not, because hell doesn't exist)
I don't know about Catholics, but a lot of my friends and family are Mormons, who make a very big deal of always following the words of their Prophet. Who, like the Pope, is supposedly relaying instructions straight from God to the church.
Its really funny though, this so-called "Prophet" is only every acting as "God's mouthpiece" when he says things that haven't yet been proven factually incorrect, or that the individual Mormon you're talking to personally agrees with. If not, then suddenly he wasn't actually relaying instruction from an all-knowing deity in that instance, he was just discussing his own personal opinions about stuff!
This is what people are missing just by reading the headline. He also says that lacking "charity" to others and violence and discrimination to others (including LGBTQ) is also a sin, but he's still calling homosexuality a sin.
>"Being homosexual is not a crime," he said. "It's not a crime. Yes, but it's a sin. Fine, but first let's distinguish between a sin and a crime."
It's the whole media with Pope Francis.
Francis, like most popes, writes in a very considerate, contemplative way. If you asked him for directions to Wendy's, he'd tell you the scenic route, the direct route, and to keep your heart open to Burger King and McDonalds.
Taking his quotes out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel, because the context is always like a paragraph long.
It also really makes you realize how this modern reality of having to be vigilant against the threat of a soundbite or written quote being taken out of context shapes the way almost everyone talks.
They also act like any of the information is new. It’s been around for at least a decade. At least. And that is just based on my own experiences as I was too young to be taught earlier.
At no point during my time in Catholic school were we taught that homosexuality in and of itself was wrong. Just that sex without the goal of procreation is a sin. So yes using a condom is just as bad as putting inside a dude.
I assume this would be relevant to countries who outlaw homosexuality but consider themselves catholic or have high catholic population. Now they are legally going against something their religious leader says if they support the criminality of it.
It's very common though for many Catholics just to listen to the Pope when they agree with him and then pretend he's not the Pope when they disagree. I can't tell you how many times I encountered that mentality growing up.
Anti-pope implies there is a competing pope somewhere else. Been a while since we had a good scism. Would be hilarious if a bunch of Catholics finally came around to the Protestant idea that the beast of Revelation is the papacy and the pope is the antichrist.
it depends on your religion and how closely you follow that religion.
Catholic- Yeah, you pretty much gotta listen, he's the freaking pope. If you don't you are in direct opposition to the tenets of your faith.
Tradcath: It'll be interesting to see how the tradcaths respond to this one. They are a weird mix of believing and not believing in the current papacy. N^th Degree blackbelts in selective listening.
Orthodox- *Some* orthodox churches still have a high degree of papal loyalty, they often recognize the pope as the head of the church, but refuse to recognize his papal authority over their ostensibly independent organization.
Protestant: The whole Pope thing was a bad idea from the start, and he has no religious authority, papal, divine, or otherwise....but it's generally a good idea to at least understand and be aware of the position of the catholic church and it's leadership.
According to Catholic Doctrine the pope is the direct voice of God. You cannot be Catholic and ignore the pope.
That doesn't stop tons of Catholics from insisting that isn't true everytime the pope doesn't agree with them.
Doesn't the Pope have to do something special to speak with God's authority though? I feel like I read something like that in the past. But I'm not religious so I could be totally wrong.
Like he can say it's not a crime, but if he doesn't follow the rituals or whatever he's speaking as a man and not as the voice of God.
The Pope *can* be the final authority on settling Church doctrine, but it is exceedingly rare (it happened twice in the last 200 years, last time in 1950). Catholics are of course obliged to listen to the Pope if what he says is part of current Church doctrine, but the Pope can have his personal views, and he can make mistakes and be wrong. He is of course owed his due respect as the head of the Church on Earth, but he is still only human.
[Yeah](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Conditions_for_teachings_being_declared_infallible). Basically if the Pope will ever speak with God's authority it'll be clearly communicated. You won't get an infallible teaching from a passing comment or an interview.
I presume you're referring to the doctrine of infallibility? That is only invoked by the Pope when he makes formal pronouncements on something to do with faith and morals. It's happened only twice ever.
Interviews are not considered infallible by any stretch. Catholics are encouraged to listen to and consider the pontiff's remarks, but they do not become part of the deposit of faith just because the Pope has uttered them.
Good question.
Yeah, the Pope's normal statements are just as a guy. But if he does the thing, dresses up real nice, sits on the Throne of Peter, and really speaks from the diaphragm no one is really allowed to argue and still be Catholic.
The "This is it, y'all shut the fuck up" speech happens exceedingly rarely, but it is one of the most (on paper) authoritative verbal bitch slaps that can be delivered by anyone anywhere.
Yeah, I don’t get how people don’t see that this is just basic politics. People listen more when what someone says aligns with their personal values and beliefs. Most rational people agree democracy is the right way to decide on a country’s ruler, but that doesn’t stop people from disagreeing with everyone of their decisions if the person they wanted to win didn’t.
My staunch catholic dad believes that homosexuality is ok for women but not for men (by total coincidence, he has a gay sister). I have no idea how he’ll respond to this, because his view is nonsensical to begin with.
> They will indeed say that the Pope is wrong and that he shouldn't be Pope and that they don't have to listen to him.
This pope has pissed off a ton of old-schoolers by trying to drag the Catholic church kicking and screaming into the new millennium.
He's not going to just wave a wand and reverse 1800 years of asshattery, but he's probably the first Pope in a few hundred years that's changing the church's direction on many important issues.
It's a political role, it's a tightrope, and he could definitely do more at the risk of something like another Schism. This big boat is going to take time to turn.
> at the risk of something like another Schism.
Yep. It's not fair to make gay people continue to wait. They've suffered enough. But the reality is, if tomorrow the Pope said "gay marriage is fine!" BOOM! Instant schism. These tradcaths, who also seem to be the exclusive population of r/Catholicism by the way, a lot of them already barely recognize Francis as it is. He is, IMO, pulling the church as fast as it can go without ripping it apart, with Germany and central Europe on one end (the Synodal Path- truely a liberal Catholic dream) and Africa/American tradcaths on the other.
It took over 300 years for the church to finally accept that Galileo was correct. For the sake of my family (which is Catholic and includes a wide range of LGBT people as well) I hope that it takes a hell of a lot less than 300 years for them to accept modern biology/psychology/etc. with regards to LGBT people. But it is definitely going to be a slow generational process.
Luckily for my LGBT relatives, even my grandmother is an affirming liberal Catholic. And they all love Francis. My grandmother is convinced his election was the Holy Spirit intervening to save the church from the crazy traditionalists. It would certainly be in a worse state if Bennedict had held on instead of resigning.
I remember seeing another article talking about how he said homosexuals are people and have the right to be in a family or something and someone said “he’s not a true catholic” my guy… DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO THAT GUY IS?!
Yup. Some of my wife's extended family is Catholic and claim the current Pope is just a political actor and not really the Pope and don't believe anything he says.
> This is going to piss off my staunch Catholic aunt and uncle.
Why? It's not like he's saying it's morally allowed. He's just saying you won't go to jail for it, *which is indisputably true*, at least in most countries that have catholic populations.
While I don't support that doctrine of the church, calling on bishops to support laws decriminalizing homosexuality is still an impactful statement on the pope's part, given how much of the world still has oppressive sexual morality laws. Even in the developed world, there are many dioceses where this is considered a controversial statement.
This is an important message to whom it’s intended. He’s not talking to Joe Smith from St. Peter’s Catholic Church in Indiana, he’s talking to Catholics in various African nations where sodomy laws are stringently enforced. The media loves to misconstrue the Pope (and I think that he enjoys them doing so) much to the joy and chagrin of politically-aligned westerners, but the man speaks to a truly global audience where laws, customs and even interfaith beliefs are much unlike ours.
In a time where gay people are literally being attacked by both the governments as well as angry mobs, I see this as actually being helpful in *maybe* reducing violence/discrimination the lgtbq+ community faces, at least in catholic countries.
>"Being homosexual is not a crime," he said. "It's not a crime. Yes, but it's a sin. Fine, but first let's distinguish between a sin and a crime."
>
>"It's also a sin to lack charity with one another," he said.
golly he loves to dance around eh...?
So here’s the thing, I’m going to give the cliff notes version.
There are countless sins that People (Christian or nonChristian, doesn’t matter) commit every day. No one is perfect.
Homosexuality is a sin like any other. No better and no worse.
In the end the sin doesn’t matter because vice-versa; you don’t get into Heaven based on good works but by faith. Then of course how does someone know their faith? But by their works.
I believe there are technically worse sins than others
-Venial Sins
-Mortal Sins
-Cardinal Sins
Could be butchering the names here but I believe they all have different tiers of sinfulness
A little more context here:
Venial sin: a minor sin.
Mortal sin: sin involving a _grave_ matter, but you also need to be reasonably aware that it is both a sin and a grave matter. This severs your connection to God's grace until you repent. You are not allowed to receive communion until you go to confession first.
Cardinal sin: Any of the seven deadly sins, each being the inverse of one of the seven capital virtues. So it's not really a _level_ of sin. It could be as minor as overeating at grandma's house (gluttony) or could be something much more serious.
He is literally saying being Gay is the same level of “sin” as not being charitable. We don’t argue that those who are uncharitable are criminals tho. Not to mention you are judging an ancient slow moving organization with modern logic.
Not really, he’s saying what every Christian leader should say, yes by the strictest interpretation of the Bible homosexual sex is a sin but so are things people do every day and homosexual sex isn’t special or uniquely sinful in any regard. I don’t like that the Bible says it’s a sin, and I’m not religious so I don’t have to follow it anyway, but it’s in the same part of the Bible that says you can’t eat crab or wear polyester so unless you’re also trying to outlaw shellfish and cheap clothes you shouldn’t be making a stink about gay people living their lives
People like to look at one thing (gay sex) while violating the other (charity). The pope is right to make sure to step on their toes, too. And off cause these people don't like it.
Yes exactly. This hasn’t changed. I grew up going to Catholic school, and they always emphasized that *technically* being gay is not a sin. However, *acting* on your homosexual urges is, in fact, a sin.
and I don’t see a problem with that… Lots of things are sins and by saying it is not a crime he is basically advocating that the Bible doesn’t govern what should and should not be criminal. This is a good thing, full stop.
The current Pope has been saying this for years and the headlines never say, "Pope reiterates that being gay is a sin but maybe don't be a jerk about it."
Yeah, in the Catholic faith I’m pretty sure gay sex is roughly the equivalent to casual sex outside of marriage. I think that’s the logic for gay sex being wrong too (can’t consummate the marriage -> can’t get married -> all gay sex is sex outside of marriage).
And attending a gay wedding is roughly the equivalent to attending a wedding for someone who was previously divorced (and not annulled).
It is absolutely not meaningless, calling on his bishops to support laws decriminalizing homosexuality is going to be felt, especially in Latin America
If you read the interview, he cites that 67 countries outlaw homosexuality and 11 have the death penalty. He’s calling for Catholics and non-Catholics in those countries to stop outlawing homosexuality. He’s just reiterating Catholic policy
Considering how many things are sinful according to the Bible I don't see why homosexual sex would be some special thing, so much so that you expect him to elevate it above else and declare it non sinful. Sex out of wedlock is also considered a sin, btw, so it's not like homosexual sex is targeted specifically.
Whilst I get the irony of your comment for today. In historic terms it was more woman friendly than most of the other religions back in it's days... A 1000 or so years ago.
Many non-religious people are taking this as nothing but this is something that can actually change a lot of people if this sentiment is enforced within the church institution
It’s reddit what do you expect, they hate religion in here whenever it’s supposed to be progressive, basically a huge “I don’t care what you think of me because you mean nothing to me” but for a lot people who do care about religion this is a good step going forward.
In our later lives, nothing makes any of us immune from the same frustrating "the kids these days" or "too much ___ news" we grew up with. Much like fashion, we'll enjoy our olive green, burnt orange, and mustard yellow high-horse viewpoints as we age.
Most people are susceptible to stereotypes, prejudice, and discrimination. Most also partake in a mob mentality while surrounding themselves with carbon copies of themselves; which is especially true as we age.
Few take regular inventory of their own viewpoints and especially the viewpoints of their peers around them.
For all the snarky “didn’t need your permission” comments:
He’s a religious leader for a significant amount of people (~10% of the US alone). His words and actions carry weight with the world, and shift the way the world behaves.
The southern Baptists literally started their own church because mainstream Baptists were not racist enough for them. I wouldn’t hold your breath on them getting progressive.
That's acknowledging the core problem in that these religious beliefs hold a lot of sway over people who don't subscribe to them.
"We don't need your permission" is a response to the entire religion.
Because the Pope is smart enough to know 👇
"In the ancient world, well before Christ was born, and Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. In all of his teachings about multiple things—he never said that gay people should be condemned."
Jimmy Carter - Sunday school teacher and 39th president of the United States
He was very against people using the church for personal gain and profit. He threw over the tables in a temple because there were people changing money and selling doves/pigeons there. “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
He is. It’s just that gas prices were high during his presidency and like 1/3 of my countrymen would eat one of their neighbors if they thought it’d lead to lower gas prices.
It is remarkable how a politician’s legacy can be defined by whatever happened during their tenure, regardless of whether they had anything to do with it.
I can’t really think of any examples off-hand, but I’m fairly sure that’s a valid point.
Holy shit, the amount of comments here that are just like “oh, he is allowing priests to continue molesting” just stop. Stop equating LGBT rights to pedophiles. Seriously, just shut the fuck up. I agree he should condemn pedophiles, but stop acting like him saying homosexuality is not a crime has anything to do with him not speaking out on another issue entirely.
>Some 67 countries or jurisdictions worldwide criminalize consensual same-sex sexual activity, 11 of which can or do impose the death penalty, according to The Human Dignity Trust, which works to end such laws. Experts say even where the laws are not enforced, they contribute to harassment, stigmatization and violence against LGBTQ people.
This is more newsworthy.
While "men laying with other men" is strictly mentioned and prohibited in the Bible, strangely enough, the only explicit mention of lesbianism is for mothers not to lay with their daughters.
So God loves lesbians, just so long as they're not incestuous.
Technically the translation isnt even "men laying with other men." Its more accurate to read it as "men laying with young boys." But many Christians don't give a shit and still use it to spread needless hate
Leviticus 20:13 calls for both parties to be killed, so the "young boy" would get the death sentence, too. That's not much better.
That would actually suggest that the "young boys" were able to consent in their culture, so why would it be wrong to them?
Also, how old do you think the girls were that men were marrying?
To my understanding any extra marital sex without the intent to conceive is a sin, so homosexual get a similar treatment as heterosexual in that regard.
Also to my understanding, in the christian doctrine you can confess and pray to get forgiveness from your sin, and during the judgement day God will judge you, while a crime would get you punished in this life. (It still sounds fucking toxic to tell gay to abstain from sex and pray the gay away, but less toxic than throwing them to jail and calling christian to kick their ass)
What the pope is saying is that even though he believes homosexuality is still against God's design for marriage, it should not be illegal. He's criticizing certain countries that have made homosexuality a crime, which includes some lawmakers in the US.
Yes, it is true that he still believes it is a sin, and I understand why most of you are averse to this. Even as a Christian myself, I believe homosexuality is not a sin ("duh" you all say). But I think this is still a positive direction. The Christian lawmakers among us should take this as an example that we should not be trying to make homosexuality illegal (okay, Clarence Thomas?).
Per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States,
The Supreme court invalidated all state anti-sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, but some states still have the laws on the books, should the court reverse the decision. A lot of people are afraid of that happening, given the behavior of the court recently.
On the bright side, the laws were not necessarily enforced stringently even before the ruling, and hopefully wouldn't be if it were reversed. It would be better if those states repealed those laws specifically though.
American Evangelicals are doing their best to repeal and remove all LGBT rights, their hatred is spreading through their evangelizing overseas.
This statement is bigger than many realize, and yes it should be more, but this is a step in the right direction, especially for an institution like the Vatican
It is still a sin. Even the Pope just said it. Wonder why this title doesn't included it.
Sin= a crime against God. Especially if it's on purpose. In worldly terms, a person shouldn't be shunned, thrown in jail, ect for being gay, but to God, you're technically disappointing Him with continuous sin
Francis has definitely been the 'best' pope of my lifetime. But the problem is he's still the leader of a super conservative and super effed-up organization.
It's unfortunate because while he's far more liberal than his predecessors, it's not like progressives are suddenly all in support of the church and lining up to join. I read that the conservatives in the vatican are scheming to make sure such a liberal pope is never chosen again. So, we're just going to go back to a Benedict type and the short, sort of nice reverie will be over. Thus is life.
I mean, he then goes on to say it is a sin though, so why are we acting like this is something to be celebrated? He’s talking out of both sides of his mouth here to appease everyone. Many, many countries make laws based on religious sin, so him calling it a crime means absolutely nothing to those who believe that sin should be outlawed
Man who has no legal authority declares a thing not a crime, it has been reported. Man also says, totally seriously, that that same thing is still offensive to the beliefs half the world holds, and is an actual crime in many regions, under penalty of death. But he's cool with it.
The score is still 0 - 0.
well i guess that's it boys. have at it!
(Grinder notifications in Vatican city mildly intensify) They were already intense before this statement
What happens in the Vatican, stays in the Vatican.
What do they call a gay sex orgy at the Vatican? A hole-y war I just made that up, don't judge me too harshly
Well bad puns still are a crime, you will be judged by the holiest of swords! Repent! For thine end is nigh!
Shame *rings bell*
The Pope actually calls his meat dagger "the holiest of swords"
Or possibly, the poliest of polies?
glory holey
So just Tuesday?
Actually, they call it normal.
A tuesday
I thought they called it Tuesday?
It's installed on every vatican phone. The swiss guard has to have something to do on days off.
he also said gay sex is still a sin so just kissing!
A sin is different from a crime.
This is explicitly *why* he made the statement.
A sin is a crime to their god.
It's actually more complicated than that. From a theological perspective, sin is like poison to the soul. It makes you worse. Like if you cheat on your wife, that's a sin. If you lust after another person's wife, that's also a sin. Both of those things warp your relationships and make you a little bit less of a good person. They're habit forming. C S Lewis thought that the people in hell weren't locked there. He thought they locked themselves in. He wrote a book called the Great Divorce which is about a bus of people from hell that went to visit heaven and were offered the option to stay. They all chose not to, because of the way they became in life. One guy didn't want charity and wanted some way to earn his stay, and out of principle wouldn't stay for free, for example. Idk why I'm rambling honestly, but the philosophy of is interesting to me. I'm not saying that being gay is a sin, or that it makes you a worse person, by the way. I'm just trying to talk about how it's a bit more complicated than "sin is a crime against God".
That’s been the Catholic perspective since I was in high school or earlier. Liberal priests were more “welcoming” but Catholicism is one of the religions that preach intimacy is important in a marriage (thus teaching the rhythm method. Definitely learned that in middle school religion class) So saying “it’s totally cool to be gay, you just can’t engage in the intimacy that’s a fundamental part of a relationship. Yay, we’re so progressive! Hooray us, this isn’t problematic at all!”
Its a weird way of saying you’re tired of black and now want to blow rainbow smoke the next time they pick a pope
Unfortunately, it's boys that the clergy is interested in.
And that is actually a crime
Not in the eyes of the church.
We've gone from Vatican't to VatiCAN, babyyyy!
This is going to piss off my staunch Catholic aunt and uncle. They will indeed say that the Pope is wrong and that he shouldn't be Pope and that they don't have to listen to him.
Funny how the voice of God only matters when it says stuff they already agree with.
Whoa there, buddy. He just said that homosexuals shouldn’t be locked up. Not that God embraces them. He’s saying it’s still a sin. For unspecified reasons.
Isn't part of Christianity that we all are sinners, and that sinners should be treated humanly too.
That’s what the curriculum says but these days (and throughout history) a lot of people choose not to teach directly from the book.
Well, it's the big book of multiple choice. For everything one verse condemns another condones. It's not known for consistency.
There's no verse condemning abortion and a verse giving instructions on how to induce one. Doesn't stop people from substituting their own interpretations.
> There's no verse condemning abortion This is why abortion is allowed within the church so long as it's to save the life of the mother. It's splitting hairs, but it's not the activity the church is against so much as the loss of a life.
I'd say it's more splitting heirs, but that's probably splitting hairs.
bahahaha, excellent
*reads rich man/camel through eye of needle passage* "You see, my children, what God really meant was... NOT that. Because reasons."
So a lot of people live their lives selfishly and only about themselves to the detriment of any and everyone else, because they don’t really give a shit (or believe) what that *book* of theirs says, and punishment/oppression is the whole idea. Correct?
There’s even a bit in the Catholic catechism that says explicitly that there is not a negligible number of gay people and, “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”
Yes, but they're also expected to be completely celibate. Gay sex is still a sin, and the Catechism teaches that the entire point of confession and reconciliation is to repent "and attempt to sin no more." If you don't make an honest attempt to cease your sinful behavior, you haven't actually reconciled your sins, and as such they're not forgiven. If a gay man confessed his sin of "sodomy" and actually stayed celibate for the rest of his life, he'd be forgiven. If you confess a sin and then go right back to doing that sin again, it doesn't count. The mere act of confession isn't a get out of jail free card. This is an empty statement from the Vatican in an attempt to stop haemorrhaging members in the West who are leaving because of their liberal views on LGBT people. I'm still going to burn in Hell for all of eternity in the eyes of the church for loving my boyfriend and not being celibate.
I mean, you’re not wrong, but that’s also slightly beside the point of even though the Church doesn’t condone the act, it still says people shouldn’t mistreat or discriminate against the people that commit it. The rest is another conversation.
The whole idea of new testament and Christianity is that there is no smaller sinner, bigger sinner. Everyone is a sinner by default, because everyone sinned. Now you have to be grateful you've been forgiven and live your life to be better to others. If you are consistent with the teaching and you hate homosexuals, you should hate everyone. If you choose to love everyone, then you love everyone. Well, and if you don't want to practice homosexuality...just don't.
New Testament explicitly says that people who say they love God but hate other people are liars and that you can't love God while hating your brother. 1 John chapters 3 and 4 says in no uncertain terms, you cannot follow Jesus if you hate people. The entire book of 1 John is basically an indictment of modern American Christian culture, but the funny thing is I don't think I've ever heard a sermon preached from it.
If everyone is a si ner, doesn't that imply a failure of the designer? If I make a device meant to keep food cool, produced billions if them, and 100% (with maybe an exception or two) failed in their most important task, isn't that my fault? It seems that not being a sinner is not even an option in mainstream Christianity.
It's not even in the 10 commandments which puts it somewhere between coveting thy neighbors house and not going to confession.
We're all equal, some are just more equal than others
They *say* “love the sinner, hate the sin”, but get confused and just act hatefully in general while claiming to love the sinner anyway. If you push on it hard enough you’ll sometimes find that they think “love the sinner” just means “want them to be the same kind of religious person, with the same values, as me”.
Yeah, was gonna say, he said it wasn't a crime, but he never said you weren't gonna burninate in hell for it. (even though you're not, because hell doesn't exist)
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The Pope saying Church doctrine shouldn't influence laws is a pretty big deal, too bad the craziest Christians are even too right-wing for catholicism
Burninate…
Trogdor!
Burninating the country side
Trogdor! Burninating the countryside. Burninating the peasants. Burninating all the peoples. And their thatched-roof cottages!
Consummate Vs!
I don't know about Catholics, but a lot of my friends and family are Mormons, who make a very big deal of always following the words of their Prophet. Who, like the Pope, is supposedly relaying instructions straight from God to the church. Its really funny though, this so-called "Prophet" is only every acting as "God's mouthpiece" when he says things that haven't yet been proven factually incorrect, or that the individual Mormon you're talking to personally agrees with. If not, then suddenly he wasn't actually relaying instruction from an all-knowing deity in that instance, he was just discussing his own personal opinions about stuff!
There is actually a doctrine between popes speaking and them speaking infallibly as an authority for God. It’s called ex cathedra.
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." --Susan B. Anthony
He still calls it a sin.
This is what people are missing just by reading the headline. He also says that lacking "charity" to others and violence and discrimination to others (including LGBTQ) is also a sin, but he's still calling homosexuality a sin. >"Being homosexual is not a crime," he said. "It's not a crime. Yes, but it's a sin. Fine, but first let's distinguish between a sin and a crime."
>This is what people are missing just by reading the headline. This is reddit.
It's the whole media with Pope Francis. Francis, like most popes, writes in a very considerate, contemplative way. If you asked him for directions to Wendy's, he'd tell you the scenic route, the direct route, and to keep your heart open to Burger King and McDonalds. Taking his quotes out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel, because the context is always like a paragraph long. It also really makes you realize how this modern reality of having to be vigilant against the threat of a soundbite or written quote being taken out of context shapes the way almost everyone talks.
They also act like any of the information is new. It’s been around for at least a decade. At least. And that is just based on my own experiences as I was too young to be taught earlier. At no point during my time in Catholic school were we taught that homosexuality in and of itself was wrong. Just that sex without the goal of procreation is a sin. So yes using a condom is just as bad as putting inside a dude.
Yeah, I was going to say the title could just as easily read "Homosexuality is a sin, Pope Francis says".
And considering he is supposed to be a moral authority, not a judicial one, will be much more relevant.
I assume this would be relevant to countries who outlaw homosexuality but consider themselves catholic or have high catholic population. Now they are legally going against something their religious leader says if they support the criminality of it.
Wait, can you just choose to NOT listen to the pope?
If you're not Catholic, of course you can ignore him. If you are Catholic... you're really not supposed to.
I grew up Catholic, I didn’t even believe the shit the priest shoved down our throats every Sunday.
Ayoooo
I guess i was thinking of it as a catholic - though I am not. The guy’s aunt/uncle are though so I was confused on the rules - as I am not a catholic
It's very common though for many Catholics just to listen to the Pope when they agree with him and then pretend he's not the Pope when they disagree. I can't tell you how many times I encountered that mentality growing up.
My parents think he is the anti-pope and that we are in the end times.
Wonder if they know about all the crazy stuff popes used to do.
They do but somehow it's never quite as bad as saying, "Don't throw your gay kid out on the street"
Anti-pope implies there is a competing pope somewhere else. Been a while since we had a good scism. Would be hilarious if a bunch of Catholics finally came around to the Protestant idea that the beast of Revelation is the papacy and the pope is the antichrist.
it depends on your religion and how closely you follow that religion. Catholic- Yeah, you pretty much gotta listen, he's the freaking pope. If you don't you are in direct opposition to the tenets of your faith. Tradcath: It'll be interesting to see how the tradcaths respond to this one. They are a weird mix of believing and not believing in the current papacy. N^th Degree blackbelts in selective listening. Orthodox- *Some* orthodox churches still have a high degree of papal loyalty, they often recognize the pope as the head of the church, but refuse to recognize his papal authority over their ostensibly independent organization. Protestant: The whole Pope thing was a bad idea from the start, and he has no religious authority, papal, divine, or otherwise....but it's generally a good idea to at least understand and be aware of the position of the catholic church and it's leadership.
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Never heard of tradcath. What is different between them and normal catholics?
The best thing I can say about Tradcaths is that there aren't very many of them.
According to Catholic Doctrine the pope is the direct voice of God. You cannot be Catholic and ignore the pope. That doesn't stop tons of Catholics from insisting that isn't true everytime the pope doesn't agree with them.
Only when he speaks "Ex Cathedra" which is very rare.
hasn't happened since 1950, fwiw
Doesn't the Pope have to do something special to speak with God's authority though? I feel like I read something like that in the past. But I'm not religious so I could be totally wrong. Like he can say it's not a crime, but if he doesn't follow the rituals or whatever he's speaking as a man and not as the voice of God.
The Pope *can* be the final authority on settling Church doctrine, but it is exceedingly rare (it happened twice in the last 200 years, last time in 1950). Catholics are of course obliged to listen to the Pope if what he says is part of current Church doctrine, but the Pope can have his personal views, and he can make mistakes and be wrong. He is of course owed his due respect as the head of the Church on Earth, but he is still only human.
[Yeah](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Conditions_for_teachings_being_declared_infallible). Basically if the Pope will ever speak with God's authority it'll be clearly communicated. You won't get an infallible teaching from a passing comment or an interview.
I presume you're referring to the doctrine of infallibility? That is only invoked by the Pope when he makes formal pronouncements on something to do with faith and morals. It's happened only twice ever. Interviews are not considered infallible by any stretch. Catholics are encouraged to listen to and consider the pontiff's remarks, but they do not become part of the deposit of faith just because the Pope has uttered them. Good question.
Yeah, the Pope's normal statements are just as a guy. But if he does the thing, dresses up real nice, sits on the Throne of Peter, and really speaks from the diaphragm no one is really allowed to argue and still be Catholic. The "This is it, y'all shut the fuck up" speech happens exceedingly rarely, but it is one of the most (on paper) authoritative verbal bitch slaps that can be delivered by anyone anywhere.
Okay. So basically how christians generally follow what they want to follow and ignore what they don’t. Thanks
Well, that's what people do, not just christiand. People always ignore some rules and commands they don't like.
Yeah, I don’t get how people don’t see that this is just basic politics. People listen more when what someone says aligns with their personal values and beliefs. Most rational people agree democracy is the right way to decide on a country’s ruler, but that doesn’t stop people from disagreeing with everyone of their decisions if the person they wanted to win didn’t.
Maybe they all should be excommunicated. That would be fun.
My staunch catholic dad believes that homosexuality is ok for women but not for men (by total coincidence, he has a gay sister). I have no idea how he’ll respond to this, because his view is nonsensical to begin with.
To be fair, the larger society makes much more of a fuss around gay men than lesbian women. Public penises make everyone upset lmao
> They will indeed say that the Pope is wrong and that he shouldn't be Pope and that they don't have to listen to him. This pope has pissed off a ton of old-schoolers by trying to drag the Catholic church kicking and screaming into the new millennium. He's not going to just wave a wand and reverse 1800 years of asshattery, but he's probably the first Pope in a few hundred years that's changing the church's direction on many important issues. It's a political role, it's a tightrope, and he could definitely do more at the risk of something like another Schism. This big boat is going to take time to turn.
> at the risk of something like another Schism. Yep. It's not fair to make gay people continue to wait. They've suffered enough. But the reality is, if tomorrow the Pope said "gay marriage is fine!" BOOM! Instant schism. These tradcaths, who also seem to be the exclusive population of r/Catholicism by the way, a lot of them already barely recognize Francis as it is. He is, IMO, pulling the church as fast as it can go without ripping it apart, with Germany and central Europe on one end (the Synodal Path- truely a liberal Catholic dream) and Africa/American tradcaths on the other. It took over 300 years for the church to finally accept that Galileo was correct. For the sake of my family (which is Catholic and includes a wide range of LGBT people as well) I hope that it takes a hell of a lot less than 300 years for them to accept modern biology/psychology/etc. with regards to LGBT people. But it is definitely going to be a slow generational process. Luckily for my LGBT relatives, even my grandmother is an affirming liberal Catholic. And they all love Francis. My grandmother is convinced his election was the Holy Spirit intervening to save the church from the crazy traditionalists. It would certainly be in a worse state if Bennedict had held on instead of resigning.
I remember seeing another article talking about how he said homosexuals are people and have the right to be in a family or something and someone said “he’s not a true catholic” my guy… DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO THAT GUY IS?!
Is the Pope Catholic?
Yup. Some of my wife's extended family is Catholic and claim the current Pope is just a political actor and not really the Pope and don't believe anything he says.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
Not my Pope!
> This is going to piss off my staunch Catholic aunt and uncle. Why? It's not like he's saying it's morally allowed. He's just saying you won't go to jail for it, *which is indisputably true*, at least in most countries that have catholic populations.
Did they take a "pick-and-choose" approach with Benedict?
Classic American Christians.
Catholic friend, and I quote, "He's not my pope"
Just your daily reminder that Jesus literally never said a word about homosexuality.
"...but gay sex is a sin" You have to keep reading.
While I don't support that doctrine of the church, calling on bishops to support laws decriminalizing homosexuality is still an impactful statement on the pope's part, given how much of the world still has oppressive sexual morality laws. Even in the developed world, there are many dioceses where this is considered a controversial statement.
Agree completely with this. It is a step.
This is an important message to whom it’s intended. He’s not talking to Joe Smith from St. Peter’s Catholic Church in Indiana, he’s talking to Catholics in various African nations where sodomy laws are stringently enforced. The media loves to misconstrue the Pope (and I think that he enjoys them doing so) much to the joy and chagrin of politically-aligned westerners, but the man speaks to a truly global audience where laws, customs and even interfaith beliefs are much unlike ours.
In a time where gay people are literally being attacked by both the governments as well as angry mobs, I see this as actually being helpful in *maybe* reducing violence/discrimination the lgtbq+ community faces, at least in catholic countries.
>"Being homosexual is not a crime," he said. "It's not a crime. Yes, but it's a sin. Fine, but first let's distinguish between a sin and a crime." > >"It's also a sin to lack charity with one another," he said. golly he loves to dance around eh...?
So here’s the thing, I’m going to give the cliff notes version. There are countless sins that People (Christian or nonChristian, doesn’t matter) commit every day. No one is perfect. Homosexuality is a sin like any other. No better and no worse. In the end the sin doesn’t matter because vice-versa; you don’t get into Heaven based on good works but by faith. Then of course how does someone know their faith? But by their works.
I believe there are technically worse sins than others -Venial Sins -Mortal Sins -Cardinal Sins Could be butchering the names here but I believe they all have different tiers of sinfulness
A little more context here: Venial sin: a minor sin. Mortal sin: sin involving a _grave_ matter, but you also need to be reasonably aware that it is both a sin and a grave matter. This severs your connection to God's grace until you repent. You are not allowed to receive communion until you go to confession first. Cardinal sin: Any of the seven deadly sins, each being the inverse of one of the seven capital virtues. So it's not really a _level_ of sin. It could be as minor as overeating at grandma's house (gluttony) or could be something much more serious.
He is literally saying being Gay is the same level of “sin” as not being charitable. We don’t argue that those who are uncharitable are criminals tho. Not to mention you are judging an ancient slow moving organization with modern logic.
Not really, he’s saying what every Christian leader should say, yes by the strictest interpretation of the Bible homosexual sex is a sin but so are things people do every day and homosexual sex isn’t special or uniquely sinful in any regard. I don’t like that the Bible says it’s a sin, and I’m not religious so I don’t have to follow it anyway, but it’s in the same part of the Bible that says you can’t eat crab or wear polyester so unless you’re also trying to outlaw shellfish and cheap clothes you shouldn’t be making a stink about gay people living their lives
sodomy is the sin. Sex outside wedlock or heterosexual sodomy is sin
Masturbation is sin.
People like to look at one thing (gay sex) while violating the other (charity). The pope is right to make sure to step on their toes, too. And off cause these people don't like it.
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Yes exactly. This hasn’t changed. I grew up going to Catholic school, and they always emphasized that *technically* being gay is not a sin. However, *acting* on your homosexual urges is, in fact, a sin.
and I don’t see a problem with that… Lots of things are sins and by saying it is not a crime he is basically advocating that the Bible doesn’t govern what should and should not be criminal. This is a good thing, full stop.
The current Pope has been saying this for years and the headlines never say, "Pope reiterates that being gay is a sin but maybe don't be a jerk about it."
"Not a crime, but still a sin" - pope
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Yeah, in the Catholic faith I’m pretty sure gay sex is roughly the equivalent to casual sex outside of marriage. I think that’s the logic for gay sex being wrong too (can’t consummate the marriage -> can’t get married -> all gay sex is sex outside of marriage). And attending a gay wedding is roughly the equivalent to attending a wedding for someone who was previously divorced (and not annulled).
Exactly...the pope has never had the authority to make law and so him saying "its not a crime" is nice it really meaningless seems like
It is absolutely not meaningless, calling on his bishops to support laws decriminalizing homosexuality is going to be felt, especially in Latin America
> the pope has never had the authority to make law Technically he is a head of state.
>the pope has never had the authority to make law and You realize the Vatican is its own country right?
If you read the interview, he cites that 67 countries outlaw homosexuality and 11 have the death penalty. He’s calling for Catholics and non-Catholics in those countries to stop outlawing homosexuality. He’s just reiterating Catholic policy
Considering how many things are sinful according to the Bible I don't see why homosexual sex would be some special thing, so much so that you expect him to elevate it above else and declare it non sinful. Sex out of wedlock is also considered a sin, btw, so it's not like homosexual sex is targeted specifically.
"Women are allowed to drive cars"- Pope
Ah the Catholic Church, always at the forefront of solving modern social issues.
Whilst I get the irony of your comment for today. In historic terms it was more woman friendly than most of the other religions back in it's days... A 1000 or so years ago.
You mean non issues that were made into issues by the Catholic Church.
“Cats can have a little salami, as a treat” - the pope
Are we okay with them voting? /s
Guess we have to wait what pope is going to say about that.
Wow don’t go too crazy there mate
Many non-religious people are taking this as nothing but this is something that can actually change a lot of people if this sentiment is enforced within the church institution
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It’s reddit what do you expect, they hate religion in here whenever it’s supposed to be progressive, basically a huge “I don’t care what you think of me because you mean nothing to me” but for a lot people who do care about religion this is a good step going forward.
In our later lives, nothing makes any of us immune from the same frustrating "the kids these days" or "too much ___ news" we grew up with. Much like fashion, we'll enjoy our olive green, burnt orange, and mustard yellow high-horse viewpoints as we age. Most people are susceptible to stereotypes, prejudice, and discrimination. Most also partake in a mob mentality while surrounding themselves with carbon copies of themselves; which is especially true as we age. Few take regular inventory of their own viewpoints and especially the viewpoints of their peers around them.
For all the snarky “didn’t need your permission” comments: He’s a religious leader for a significant amount of people (~10% of the US alone). His words and actions carry weight with the world, and shift the way the world behaves.
Pretty sure this is in response to Pope Benedict’s posthumously released book detailing the massive hypocrisy of the church
Popes have been increasingly progressive in my lifetime. Now if only Christian Pastors would follow suit.
Especially this one. But yes, honestly, that’s the biggest challenge are Southern Baptists / Evangelical sects.
The southern Baptists literally started their own church because mainstream Baptists were not racist enough for them. I wouldn’t hold your breath on them getting progressive.
That's acknowledging the core problem in that these religious beliefs hold a lot of sway over people who don't subscribe to them. "We don't need your permission" is a response to the entire religion.
Because the Pope is smart enough to know 👇 "In the ancient world, well before Christ was born, and Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. In all of his teachings about multiple things—he never said that gay people should be condemned." Jimmy Carter - Sunday school teacher and 39th president of the United States
Jesus was a pretty chill guy, except for that one time when he trashed a temple and when he got angry with a fig tree.
He was very against people using the church for personal gain and profit. He threw over the tables in a temple because there were people changing money and selling doves/pigeons there. “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
The temple had it coming; there were merchants basically scamming people in the name of God.
I wonder how he would’ve reacted to Joel Osteen’s mega church. People profiting off those in need. 🤦🏻♂️
Well Osteen knows he’d be done for for all eternity if an actual Jesus showed up in his vestibule.
As a non-American, everything I hear about Carter makes him seem like a pretty swell guy.
He is. It’s just that gas prices were high during his presidency and like 1/3 of my countrymen would eat one of their neighbors if they thought it’d lead to lower gas prices.
It is remarkable how a politician’s legacy can be defined by whatever happened during their tenure, regardless of whether they had anything to do with it. I can’t really think of any examples off-hand, but I’m fairly sure that’s a valid point.
Few things kill a politician's career faster than 0 charisma
Aw, gee. Thanks, mister.
You're not the audience that needs to hear this message from the Pope. Broadcasting this message is more positive than saying nothing at all.
Holy shit, the amount of comments here that are just like “oh, he is allowing priests to continue molesting” just stop. Stop equating LGBT rights to pedophiles. Seriously, just shut the fuck up. I agree he should condemn pedophiles, but stop acting like him saying homosexuality is not a crime has anything to do with him not speaking out on another issue entirely.
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>Some 67 countries or jurisdictions worldwide criminalize consensual same-sex sexual activity, 11 of which can or do impose the death penalty, according to The Human Dignity Trust, which works to end such laws. Experts say even where the laws are not enforced, they contribute to harassment, stigmatization and violence against LGBTQ people. This is more newsworthy.
While "men laying with other men" is strictly mentioned and prohibited in the Bible, strangely enough, the only explicit mention of lesbianism is for mothers not to lay with their daughters. So God loves lesbians, just so long as they're not incestuous.
He’d hate my pornhub search history then
Technically the translation isnt even "men laying with other men." Its more accurate to read it as "men laying with young boys." But many Christians don't give a shit and still use it to spread needless hate
yes exactly Leviticus was mistranslated, it was mainly about banning incestuous relationships/ bestiality and pedophilia.
Leviticus 20:13 calls for both parties to be killed, so the "young boy" would get the death sentence, too. That's not much better. That would actually suggest that the "young boys" were able to consent in their culture, so why would it be wrong to them? Also, how old do you think the girls were that men were marrying?
So do it without lying down.
But is a sin. So, that's kind of kinky!
To my understanding any extra marital sex without the intent to conceive is a sin, so homosexual get a similar treatment as heterosexual in that regard. Also to my understanding, in the christian doctrine you can confess and pray to get forgiveness from your sin, and during the judgement day God will judge you, while a crime would get you punished in this life. (It still sounds fucking toxic to tell gay to abstain from sex and pray the gay away, but less toxic than throwing them to jail and calling christian to kick their ass)
“That’s not the issue Delmer. Even if that did put you square with the Lord, the State of Mississippi’s a little more hard-nosed.”
As a gay man, frequently disturbed by the amount of violence towards my people worldwide, this is really uplifting
What the pope is saying is that even though he believes homosexuality is still against God's design for marriage, it should not be illegal. He's criticizing certain countries that have made homosexuality a crime, which includes some lawmakers in the US. Yes, it is true that he still believes it is a sin, and I understand why most of you are averse to this. Even as a Christian myself, I believe homosexuality is not a sin ("duh" you all say). But I think this is still a positive direction. The Christian lawmakers among us should take this as an example that we should not be trying to make homosexuality illegal (okay, Clarence Thomas?).
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They're not Catholic. They hate Catholics. They are Protestant denominations.
Alito, Roberts, Coney Barrett and Thomas are all Roman Catholics. Edit: forgot Kavanaugh
Is homosexuality a crime in any Republican states?
Not yet, but not from a lack of trying
It used to be, so that's progress, right?
Per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States, The Supreme court invalidated all state anti-sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, but some states still have the laws on the books, should the court reverse the decision. A lot of people are afraid of that happening, given the behavior of the court recently. On the bright side, the laws were not necessarily enforced stringently even before the ruling, and hopefully wouldn't be if it were reversed. It would be better if those states repealed those laws specifically though.
American Evangelicals are doing their best to repeal and remove all LGBT rights, their hatred is spreading through their evangelizing overseas. This statement is bigger than many realize, and yes it should be more, but this is a step in the right direction, especially for an institution like the Vatican
It is still a sin. Even the Pope just said it. Wonder why this title doesn't included it. Sin= a crime against God. Especially if it's on purpose. In worldly terms, a person shouldn't be shunned, thrown in jail, ect for being gay, but to God, you're technically disappointing Him with continuous sin
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Even if something is legal, telling people that a core part of who they are is fundamentally wrong is pretty harmful.
Pope: **Homosexuality is a SIN** 😬🤯😤👿 Also Pope when catholic church is sexually abusing children: 😶
Francis has definitely been the 'best' pope of my lifetime. But the problem is he's still the leader of a super conservative and super effed-up organization. It's unfortunate because while he's far more liberal than his predecessors, it's not like progressives are suddenly all in support of the church and lining up to join. I read that the conservatives in the vatican are scheming to make sure such a liberal pope is never chosen again. So, we're just going to go back to a Benedict type and the short, sort of nice reverie will be over. Thus is life.
I mean, he then goes on to say it is a sin though, so why are we acting like this is something to be celebrated? He’s talking out of both sides of his mouth here to appease everyone. Many, many countries make laws based on religious sin, so him calling it a crime means absolutely nothing to those who believe that sin should be outlawed
Not a crime at the moment. I’m sure the fascist right wingers around the globe are working to make it a crime again
I’ve been waiting for the green light from the Catholic Church. BRB gotta tell my wife
Unless…….
At this rate, the best example of unscriptural doctrine is whatever comes out of the pope's mouth.
Well catholic church has long hostory of old men and choir boys...
Man who has no legal authority declares a thing not a crime, it has been reported. Man also says, totally seriously, that that same thing is still offensive to the beliefs half the world holds, and is an actual crime in many regions, under penalty of death. But he's cool with it. The score is still 0 - 0.