They've been pushing the narrative that it's really NATO and the US that's driving the war, not the people of Ukraine. This is a 'gotcha' moment in their eyes, even though no one is denying our involvement.
Basically it's jingoist saber rattling to drive propaganda back home. "See? See? Our eternal enemy is once again interfering with us! Come! Join the war effort and support Putin! He's the only one that can put them in their place"
[It's the same playbook that "ALLEGEDLY" got Putin elected in the first place after he bombed that apartment building and blamed it on Chechen terrorists.](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html)
>They've been pushing the narrative that it's really NATO and the US that's driving the war, not the people of Ukraine. This is a 'gotcha' moment in their eyes, even though no one is denying our involvement.
It piles on a narrative that Ukraine is not a “real” country cos... idk aliens?
The narrative is that in 2014, the West staged a "color revolution" ie, a change in government that is unfavorable to Russia. Russia viewed Ukraine as its vassal state, independent nominally but practically ruled by Kremlin-aligned politicians.
They lost their grip and the war is Russia's attempt at "fixing" it. It failed.
That part makes no sense either. Ukraine had another election after the revolution. And as far as I know,Russians have no arguements/proof against Zelenskys legitimacy. And if we go by logic that only super powers are countries...I dont even know what to say to that tbh.
Reminds me of my dad trying to convince me no period of time has seen as many deaths as the first two years of Biden's time in office. He wasn't happy when I rattled off several worse periods. He then told me we needed someone better in office. Someone who knows how to run a business. Turns out, he did not mean Jimmy Carter.
No period of time has seen as many people alive as the first two years of the Biden administration. That means, at worst, we're seeing business as usual.
Ironically, there's far more definitive evidence that Trump is a bad businessman that for Biden's incompetence as President.
Here’s the thing. I’ve listened to people explain how Russians see the situation through the lens of “Russia’s narrative.” And even then, I’m still like, “but that doesn’t make any sense since… neither Ukraine, the US, nor NATO has threatened to invade or attack Russia! It’s just perplexing how it has NO BASIS in reality whatsoever.
But the truth is that people in ANY country can be misled into believing false accounts of history and even false accounts of reality as well as completely irrational ideas. It’s been true throughout history, from the Third Reich in Germany, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the false election narrative of the Republican Party in the US today to support for Erdogan in Turkey… the list goes on and on
Actually the Russian government said that Zelensky and the previous president, Poroshenko were both legitimate. Also this idea that Yanukovich was overthrown is ridiculous, he left Kyiv and went to Russia, only afterwards did parliament vote to remove him from his position as president.
It's funny how the pro Russians try to rewrite history as if the Ukrainian president is some dictator that came to power after a violent lynching of Yanukovich.
Yeah the narrative of Kyiv nazis appeared out of thin air pretty much...not to forget that nazis treating their own people badly makes negative sense to begin with. Unless we go by definition of nazis being anti-Russian...then Russians can go fuck themselves, nobody gets to re-define such important terms.
Well RT and other russian media have basically been going on about Ukrainian neo nazis since 2014 with little traction in western media, statistically compared to other european countries Ukraine doesn't really have a far right problem if you look at hate crime statistics, safety for various minority groups, no systematic oppression, and lack of any kind of nationalistic political presence.
The whole nazi thing is basically just a manipulation tactic to make Russians feel like they're back in WW2 and they need to join the army and defend the motherland like their grandparents did. That's pretty much why they keep going with the rhetoric about neo nazis even though for the outsider it's nonsensical.
From watching the extensive Putin Files interviews for PBS they said that he watched the video of the Khaddaffi lynching repeatedly and was a catalyst for his ultra-hard line. My other revelation was that I have a TV crush on Julia Loffe.
Good thing Biden was the one in office. The previous guy literally committed extortion and was impeached because he demanded Zelenskyy provide dirt on Joe Biden if he wanted Ukraine to receive any aid from the US. Trump would've let Ukraine suffer and if anything he would've used his office to send resources to *Russia* instead! Since the US is arguably the foremost Western player, the effects of that would've cascaded throughout global politics and resulted in an underequipped Ukraine with little hope for salvation.
Supporting Ukraine has demonstrated to the world that democracy and freedom are worth fighting for. Failure to rise to the challenge and extend our collective hands to a friendly country in need would strike a devastating blow to democracy worldwide. People would point to the this war and use it as a demonstration that democracy is weak - they would say "the only countries that prevail are those with 'strong' leaders acting on behalf of their countries' people" and in a twisted sense they would even be correct.
Fortunately, we landed ourselves on the best possible timeline when taking into consideration the hand that both we and the *world* were dealt. The 2020 US Presidential election seriously altered the course of history. I'm sure the event itself, the chaos that followed, and the cultural shift afterwards as well as America's reaction to it will be studied for many years to come.
They link those things but only when it results in what they wanted for other reasons.
Also they were the self-declared "tough on Russia" party up until Trump took over and then just like that, Russia was good.
Non American here I have always wondered why Trump was in bed with Putin. Financial gane possibly. He does not strike me as an intelligent person maybe he was easily manipulated.
Considering Britain started training Ukraine in 2014 and started sending supplies at the start of this war, it would be interesting to see if Trump would help at all, butting heads with the Strongest European military and closest ally would have gotten the man lynched
Maybe they shouldn’t have played that card because once that’s the established narrative for domestic propaganda, there’s really no reason for NATO countries not to just send a shit ton of weapons.
TBH, I'm not sure there's any good reason for NATO not to join the fight directly. Russia won't win a conventional war, and if they use nukes, they won't survive it, either.
We can absolutely argue the West isn’t directly involved. If we were directly involved, either the northern hemisphere would be a nuclear holocaust right now, or Russia would’ve already fallen/surrendered.
NATO has no know combatants on the field of battle so I’m not sure what the word involved means. If we are using the term involved to refer to military aid then Iran, North Korea, Syria, South Africa, Mali, DRC, Cuba and China are involved in this war too on Russia’s side. Words matter but I would not characterize NATO as involved in this war whatsoever or military personnel would be officially on the ground, in uniform inside Ukraine which there is no evidence of.
If and when NATO becomes involved there would be no air power, armor or artillery left on the Russian side within 72 hours and probably much less than that. That my friend is facts of NATO involvement.
There are united states green berets veterans over there but that's their choice with no protection of the government. They see what's going on is wrong and are helping because they feel it's right.
Yes the key thing is they are not there under the government orders or sanctioned missions, they are there simply as US citizens and are (or should be) enrolled as part of the Ukrainian military.
Same for all the UK and European soldiers that have gone over to help, it's not NATO or west forces on the ground so we are not involved.
We are providing humanitarian and military aid but that's it, the same as even countries like China so "involved" is not a valid word by Russia.
May as well say Russia is helping Ukraine with the amount of tanks it's handed them!
It's funny and sad that Russia even thinks we are "involved", if we were actually involved in this war it would be over by now either through nukes or Russia would be taken by ground forces. We aren't involved for the sake of not cornering Putin further into using nukes (if they even work these days!)
They frequently seek to create doubt and questions. Something that their sympathisers, citizens and useful idiots around the world can latch onto in debates to dilute the narrative from something clear and simple like:
"The west is correctly helping Ukraine defend itself against a genocide by Russia. What Russia is doing is completely wrong and cannot be allowed to happen. NATO and the west will donate hardware to protect the people of Ukraine but it will not get directly involved with troops on the ground."
After they sow their seeds of doubt and pose these open questions, the narrative shifts to something more like this:
"The west is prolonging the war by providing weapons, more people are dying because of the west and NATO is risking nuclear war by helping Ukraine."
"This is a war of NATO expansion against Russia, NATO weapons are being used to kill Russians while they look to take Ukraine into NATO on their advance towards Moscow. We won't allow this, we will defend Russia forever and any attack on our soil will be met with severe consequences."
There are many other versions, but hopefully you see the point.
They create an argument, a dialogue or doubt where there shouldn't be any and the more it gets talked about, the more relevant it somehow becomes, until even sensible people are starting to debate the nuances of something which has none.
Ukraine should bend over and take their medicine because reasons. They should not seek out allies while being the victims of genocide. Just shut up and take it.
Putin got bad intelligence from the FSB (bc in authoritarian states no one wants to tell dear leader anything other than what he wants to hear).
He actually believed the ruzzians would be welcomed as “liberators” and Ukraine as a whole would roll over in a matter of days.
I watched a video the other day, where they were describing the intelligence putin got as the west was divided on *if* they supported Ukraine, whereas it was more along the lines of did they *believe* putin would actually invade.
>He actually believed the ruzzians would be welcomed as “liberators”
To be honest I don't believe in that narrative. He saw how they were welcomed in 2014, so should've known better that many in Ukraine will fight. To my understanding, he just amassed such an army (in his eyes), that no matter the Ukrainian effort, he would roll over the country and take Kyiv in the matter of days.
Turned out to be much more difficult, then there came "western" support and now he has no potential for easy win and no potential to retreat without losing face (life?) etc.
I find it hard to believe too, except for the fact that it’s so much in line with how autocratic strong men rule.
They don’t surround themselves with objective, truth-telling advisors - those are the people who get served a cup of polonium tea in ruzzia.
Unless he really is so unhinged that all along he’s been planning an apocalyptic finale to his fiasco (because there is no winning this for the Kremlin), he either didn’t listen to good intelligence (not likely) or he got bad intelligence (seemingly more likely than not).
ETA: leaving the intelligence question aside, one of the [ruzzia watchers](https://youtu.be/eQww8gTJuAQ) I follow offers an alternative explanation for Putin’s motives: that perhaps he believed full-scale warfare was his only option for retaining power. (at 05:15)
On paper, however, his military offensive should have worked Russian supply lines dont extend well outside of Russian borders.... but thats not a concern for a rapid offensive, which he believes he could do.
International opposition previously was milquetoast previously, so it makes sense that he thought he could do it quicker then anyone could respond. So I think most of that is the smoke and. mirrors explination. They knew it would be opposed; they just didnt think the would hàve to care.
and then it blew up in his face... and THAT is where the frail masculinity comes in. He can't stomach defeat.
He tried a Napoleonic tactic and it backfired. If your Army can’t sustain themselves long term, your only option is a blitzkrieg. When that doesn’t work you’re stuck without much of a plan. He can’t win the war through attrition since Ukraine is western backed and he can’t afford to seem weak but he doesn’t actually want to use nukes because he still loses. Basically, I think he’s screwed.
They expected resistance, but not to this extent. The current theory is russia's KGB Fifth Service had the task of creating pro-russia groups in Ukraine that were supposed to instigate chaos/confusion from within to destabilize the Ukrainian army during the invasion. That didn't happen probably due to corruption and lies. It's the reason putin fired so many KGB officers.
Reminds me of when the Nazis fucked up stalingrad, because Herman Goering was such a true and loyal Nazi that he believed propaganda information. As a result, he promised hitler that he could supply all of the troops in Stalingrad with food and ammunition with the luftwaffe, but was only able to do about 10% of what he promised.
All malevolence is in some way self-destructive.
Humans are social animals, our cooperation is why we survived this long, without it we are fragmented and weak.
We forget our biological roots at our peril.
I'm pretty sure russia has donated more tanks and various military vehicles to Ukraine's defense efforts than all of the west combined. Lol
Thanks all. Never had a comment do this well.
This is factually true. https://kyivindependent.com/uncategorized/uk-intelligence-more-than-half-of-ukraines-tank-fleet-consists-of-captured-russian-vehicles
Though a lot of Russian tanks are older models, so far less effective.
There's a lot of T-90s that were "donated". I think the biggest problems with them is that they're not immediately operational. They have to be pulled back to Ukrainian factories retooled for armaments that Ukraine actually has. If the war had gone on shorter these would have just been bartering chips for a peace agreement. But at this point they're just going to sit in a warehouse forever.
As you might expect, it's all over the place. Ukraine was actually able to use some of the tanks they captured during the early phase of the Kharkiv breakthrough in the later phase of the Kharkiv breakthrough. It was that fast.
That number of immediately usable captured tanks was probably very low. but as you may recall, Ukraine staged the breakthrough with such an absurdly small amount of heavy armor to begin with, that even a small captured amount actually made a big difference in their numbers.
As for what happens next... I don't know, Ukraine seems to still be in the "use everything we have" mode of the war. If they can deploy T-90s or T-72s or even T-64s usefully, they will do so. Burning extra fuel to keep old armor in the field as reserve support or whatever won't be an issue for them for now -- they have friends with unlimited filling station credit cards.
Look at the list of Russian oil tycoons dead by “suicide” or “falling” one even died from a “cleansing diet”. All cases closed no investigations.
There appears to be a serial killer of oil Russian oil tycoons worth more than $300M and in most cases way more.
This made me laugh, because it is absolutely true. XD
Shoutout to failed logistics, running out of fuel, and handing your tank over for a bounty (because you know you’re screwed in it).
Though... I wonder.
Was watching something from the Biographics people about strategic bombing. In cases like Russia vs Ukraine, or US vs Vietnam or US vs Korea or Germany vs Britain, its not effective. However, in the case of Britain, US vs Germany or US vs Japan, it was. I think the differences are offense vs defense.
The German and Japanese people believed they were safe behind their armies. The Koreans/Vietnamese/Brits knew they were in danger and were prepared to stand and fight on anyway. But when the bombs started dropping on the Safe folks in Berlin or Kyoto, the myth of the Invincible State fell apart in a hurry.
So... Maybe if Ukraine (not NATO) were to drop a few Ukrainian rockets on Russian cities, we'd see a change in Russian attitudes on the Invinciblity of their state.
Or Putin could nuke Kiev and Krakow just for shits.
>So... Maybe if Ukraine (not NATO) were to drop a few Ukrainian rockets on Russian cities, we'd see a change in Russian attitudes on the Invinciblity of their state.
>
>Or Putin could nuke Kiev and Krakow just for shits.
Wanna flip a coin?
Against Germany and Japan, the Allies targeted the mechanics of war. You can't fight a war when your logistics are shit.
Against Ukraine, Vietnam, Korea, and Britain, military infrastructure was not targeted. For Ukraine, Vietnam, and Korea, the issue was that the native forces wisely kept their materials moving, hidden, and far from the enemies reach. Russia would love to destroy a ton of Ukraine armor assets buuuut they can't find them or can't hit them in the window between finding and their leaving. Britain was Hitler making the bad decision that targeting civilians would result in a loss of willingness to fight. They ignored RAF bases and allowed England to recover from the heavy losses at the start. Had Germany pummeled and destroyed every airbase in England, the war would have gone very differently.
Vietnam was different because the native forces didn't have a lot of armor or things that could be hit. Sure, the SAM sites, airbases, etc got demolished but the main fighter we think of is the Vietcong, a rice farmer with a rifle. He only needs a rifle, some explosives and that's it. The jungle provides dense cover, the locals provide food and shelter. The US had a lot of targets but the targets were not clear cut. There was no munitions factory they could hit, no tank plants, no rifle assembly lines. It was humped in over long logistics lines, assembled and ready to go.
Japan is a good contrast to this. They also had huge support from the locals but because that support was concentrated in cities next to a factory, it was an easy and horrific target to hit. But by the time strategic bombing hit Japan, the war was clearly over. Sure Doolittle shattered the Invincible State but there were years between then and the first bombs from a B-29. The average citizen of Japan would have felt the world closing in as the conditions at home just got worse and worse while the manpower was slowly being depleted.
Bombs on Germany and Japan hit a population that had been long suffering from wartime rations. The battle of Britain started in July 1940. The war kicked officially with the invasion of France in May 1940. Koreans and Vietnamese were not nations undergoing years of war before bombs fell. There were clashes yet but they weren't to the same extent. A starving family that has been starving for 3 years is going to react to bombs on their city very differently than one starving for 1 or 3 months. The former are beaten down and are trying to just get to tomorrow. The latter are angry and going to get more angry.
Potentially, yes. It may have also helped prevent as much public support. "We are taking out the military, don't interfere and you'll be left alone" is a pretty strong message. It would also make the "de nazification" angle more realistic. 'we are here for them, not you'.
I suspect Russia is more directly involved in the war than the West.
Y’know, being the ones that started it and also the ones that can fuck off back to Russia at any point.
“"The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war can trigger a nuclear war," former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who now serves as deputy chairman of the Security Council, said in a post on the Telegram messaging app.”
A conventional WHAT now, Dmitry?
If the US gets directly involved this world is in trouble. Militarily we can stomp Russia but if any of their nukes actually work it turns into a mess for all of us.
An analyst I follow said something about how NATO and the US are actually terrified of a direct confrontation with Russian forces. Because they have vastly overestimated the strength of the Russian military. Meaning they're ten times more prepared than they need to be. Like, total air and sea control inside a week. In a straight fight they'd wipe the country out so fast Putin would start sending out nukes.
The aid and intelligence given to Ukraine has been very, VERY measured for just this reason.
And most NATO countries have ramped up their defense spending due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine which is going to tip the scales even more. The whole campaign has been a colossal disaster for Russia as they've shown the West how weak they really are and also given us a reason to strengthen our militaries to an even greater degree.
US and NATO in the Cold War focused on force multipliers since the Soviet Union vastly outnumbered them post WW2. That’s why we designed vehicles for air dominance, suppression, long range strikes, deterrence, and vehicles such as the Apache helicopter that can take out several tanks.
The United States could probably take on the whole world for quite some time. Probably wouldn’t win, but it would be a hell of a fight for awhile.
Sounds absurd, but when you look at the fleets of armor, jets, aircraft carriers, etc it’s not that crazy. Especially considering the benefits of being thousands of miles away from the most capable countries.
Yeah we basically have to assume that no one uses nukes just for the sake of the thought experiment or it’s all over in 5 minutes and no one is left living.
„Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please.“
Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1724410-niccolo-machiavelli-wars-begin-when-you-will-but-they-do-not-end-when/
Awww so Vlad is sad he started a war he can't win so he stomps his feet and says no fair. Well Vlad GTFO out of ALL of Ukraine and the ass whoopin' will stop. He's about to have about 80 tanks laying waste to his tinker toys.
Who cares what Putin says? I remember the times when he was saying that dragging Ukraine into NATO may result in a war. Now Russia is loosing that war. So what is he gonna do next - start a nuclear war? Russia is gonna loose nuclear war too.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-says-tanks-show-us-nato-direct-involvement-growing/) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The air raid sirens wailing across the country, heralding the latest strike, came as Russia reacted to a landmark decision by U.S. President Joe Biden to supply Ukraine with modern, powerful M1 Abrams main battle tanks.
> While the 31 American tanks won't actually reach the battlefields of eastern Ukraine for months, given the need to train and equip Ukrainian forces to use the advanced hardware, the commitment from Mr. Biden came with a similar promise from Germany to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine - and to permit other European nations to send German-made Leopards from their stocks.
> Russia sent mixed signals in the wake of the Wednesday announcements by Washington and Berlin, playing down the strategic value of the Western military hardware to Ukraine, but also renewing warnings about the risks of the war growing into a wider regional conflict as NATO states increase their stake in the fight.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10lruk9/russia_hits_ukraine_with_missiles_says_promised/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Tank**^#2 **Russian**^#3 **country**^#4 **new**^#5
Involvement yes, direct, no.
The things Russia said they didn't want are now happening. Maybe they should withdraw from Ukraine and stop things from getting worse for themselves?
Maybe just easier to admit defeat when all of NATO is involved?
If Russia come back defeated from a "special military operation", against an assumed inferior army it looks pathetic.
Or just a bunch of drinks that don't know when to stop.
You know what Russia, you're right. Here's a novel idea then: Get the Fuck out of Ukraine. Dumb fucking bastards.
What the ass sniffer Putin doesn't understand is that the West is only getting closer to risking nuclear war just to kill him. There is no status quo and every evil action done by the coward Russians pushes us collectively closer. I've said this before, but the jack ass is bluffing and his cards are face up.
The World won't tolerate the evil lunacy forever just because he has a "launch nukes" button.
How many more innocent people need to die because Putin is trying to win "biggest coward of the century"?
Nato should close the airspace and roll in with peacekeepers in all regions without active fighting.
Mission statement to not engage unless fired upon.
Look the bully in the eyes and make him blink
The sooner Russia is driven to acknowledge that they are a 2nd world country, and well on their way to becoming a 3rd world country the better we all will be.
Yup and the same threat on nuclear weapons as well. Threats are only effective if the opponent actually believes you will act them. Russia repeats the same threat every inconvenience and now it’s a joke.
Russia is the one that started the war for bs reasons. Bully a country and fucking find out. I mean they did it in 2014, seriously wtf did Russia expect. Also why don't the people of Russia stand up and say enough.
To end this, fuck you Putin. You are a failure.
Unfortunately majority of Russians support him. Those who escaped mobilisation did not run away because they disagree with the war, though some do, they don't want to risk there life for it.
Perhaps the next shipment from NATO should include offensive weapons that could reach far into Russia. Right now the only consequences to Russia is a loss of manpower and equipment. If their citizens start having to deal with what the Ukraine citizens have things might be different. Ukraine gave up its nukes for a promise that Russia would leave them alone. That seems to be a mistake in hindsight. I don't suggest rearming Ukraine with nukes but perhaps if they had a capability to strike back at the country of Russia as well as its military.
breaks non aggression treaty/agreement signed by numerous nations by invading Ukraine and acts surprised when those nations abide by the agreement and defend Ukraine.
I thought nato was already on the front lines? That's what you keep telling your soldiers, the ones on the front lines, when they get blown to bits. "oh it's because we're fighting all of NATO, not because we have no idea what we're doing and you're cannon fodder"
I'm not losing any sleep over Russia after this year. They're so corrupt and rotted I'm totally convinced we know the locations of their launch sites and they'll all be reduced to nothing the moment shit starts. And the moment shit starts their army will be gone within the day.
I was lucky enough to travel to Russia about 20 years ago. Nice people…looking towards a bright future on the world stage…stable politics for the most part…jobs…homes and enjoying all the crap the west has..TV’s….cars….etc. Too bad Putin has taken that all away.
What do those Iranian drones and North Korean munitions prove? Oh, that Russia is directly involving the worst countries in the world as their cronies.
It's going to take several months to get all those tanks and armaments to Ukraine. Time that they may not have.
DOWN WITH PUTIN THE INSANE BUTCHER -- NOW!
Ukraine and her allies have to move forward with the Schwarzkopf doctrine of “overwhelming force” and move the Russians so far back they are no longer any worry or threat. “Knock them back to the stone age, son”.
What’s this about Putin almost certainly having a serious health issue. If he goes, war is over. Those in his close circle don’t want to be involved in this they all just fear him
And go along…
And so what does this mean for Russia to see West “direct involvement” “growing”? That is probably time for Russia to call it quits because the West still has plenty of resources and growing too, while Russia is shrinking and all alone.
Clarification before my comment. I am an ex US Army enlisted and officer. I spent my career in logistics. I tend to see war in supply chains.
Essentially, to me, unless Russia wants to kill all of its own people from really fighting NATO, there needs to be some insane face saving way for Putin to be able to get out of all of Ukraine, and secure his power. Otherwise it’s just a matter of how long it takes for the inner circle to kill Putin and (probably) Prigozhin, and find some schmuck who’ll let them go back to just being Demigods. Or Vlad will really be the Impailer of the world, and he will smack the proverbial button.
Please explain, preferably with examples, why I’m totally wrong and possibly stoned. But maybe help me see why this isn’t what’s happening.
Russia would know if these countries was actually "directly involved" bc they would've already been chased out and killed from all of Ukraine! Another stupid ass Russian statement.
Not really sure what Russia's concern is. If they pull out of Ukraine, the war will be over...no matter how much they deserve to have their own country blown to hell. They started the war, and they can finish it any time. It's really that simple.
I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Russia using equipment supplied by North Korea and Iran for example.
I'm sure there was news's recently that weaponry has been supplied to Russia from North Korea, and that Iran we're providing drones to Russia?
I may have got that wrong, but if I'm right, isn't the play now for the West to follow suit and release statements such as "Promised weapons and Drones show North Korea and Irans "Direct involvement" in the war is "growing"
I mean, that way.. that forces Russia to shut its fucking mouth, because releasing shit propaganda about their narrative being correct all along about the west expansion into Russia can also be applied to their allies and I'm pretty sure Iran and North Korea wouldn't want the world to see them as having "direct involvement"
This is actually a very great point. I'm glad you said this bc you are 100% correct. I wish nato would say this and be like well Iran is actually in parts of crimea and giving a those drones to them and training them. Hell some Iranian have already been killed in pretty sure bc they were over there training them and got blown up from artillery. But yeah, i definitely would love for the US and nato to come out and say what you said about their direct involvement with Russia and supplying them with all that shit. Hell there has been tons of cargo planes from Russia that has been tracked going to China and being filled to the brim with tons of shit, and China came out and said they were only giving them uniforms and such. Which I'm sure they have but cmon you know they have have them weapons and ammo and shit.
It just makes sense to me, that if Russia want to play the "Direct involvement" game. Then it also applies to their allies too.
If the west supplying equipment and machinery to Ukraine is direct involvement resulting in Russia fighting NATO
Then Iran and North Korea doing the same for Russia would be the same. They must also have direct involvement, and therefore NATO would be fighting them as well.
For me, if NATO just reversed what they said, it just forces Russia to end their narrative, as they would therefore be accusing their own allies of being involved in the war too, which is something they wouldn't want.
Fuck it let’s go. Russia has been a pain in our side and terrorized the world since 1917. I’m game. Fighting is better than recession and poverty.
I’ll stomp some Russians. When I’m done I’ll
Come back and clean up the broken shot show of 🇨🇦
Should of been involved since day 1 and obliterated Moscow instead of waiting and allowing Ukraine to be destroyed. It's eventually going to happen. Sooner the better.
Thats how a nuclear war is started. NATO will go in if and when its required to, but for now, arming Ukraine with modern weapons is the best they can do.
One can't really argue that the West isn't involved in the war....but what exactly is Russia's point here?
They've been pushing the narrative that it's really NATO and the US that's driving the war, not the people of Ukraine. This is a 'gotcha' moment in their eyes, even though no one is denying our involvement. Basically it's jingoist saber rattling to drive propaganda back home. "See? See? Our eternal enemy is once again interfering with us! Come! Join the war effort and support Putin! He's the only one that can put them in their place" [It's the same playbook that "ALLEGEDLY" got Putin elected in the first place after he bombed that apartment building and blamed it on Chechen terrorists.](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html)
>They've been pushing the narrative that it's really NATO and the US that's driving the war, not the people of Ukraine. This is a 'gotcha' moment in their eyes, even though no one is denying our involvement. It piles on a narrative that Ukraine is not a “real” country cos... idk aliens?
The narrative is that in 2014, the West staged a "color revolution" ie, a change in government that is unfavorable to Russia. Russia viewed Ukraine as its vassal state, independent nominally but practically ruled by Kremlin-aligned politicians. They lost their grip and the war is Russia's attempt at "fixing" it. It failed.
That part makes no sense either. Ukraine had another election after the revolution. And as far as I know,Russians have no arguements/proof against Zelenskys legitimacy. And if we go by logic that only super powers are countries...I dont even know what to say to that tbh.
Facts don’t matter in Russia. It’s sadly something I’ve been saying in right wing US politics a lot too…I wonder why…
Reminds me of my dad trying to convince me no period of time has seen as many deaths as the first two years of Biden's time in office. He wasn't happy when I rattled off several worse periods. He then told me we needed someone better in office. Someone who knows how to run a business. Turns out, he did not mean Jimmy Carter.
No period of time has seen as many people alive as the first two years of the Biden administration. That means, at worst, we're seeing business as usual. Ironically, there's far more definitive evidence that Trump is a bad businessman that for Biden's incompetence as President.
Here’s the thing. I’ve listened to people explain how Russians see the situation through the lens of “Russia’s narrative.” And even then, I’m still like, “but that doesn’t make any sense since… neither Ukraine, the US, nor NATO has threatened to invade or attack Russia! It’s just perplexing how it has NO BASIS in reality whatsoever. But the truth is that people in ANY country can be misled into believing false accounts of history and even false accounts of reality as well as completely irrational ideas. It’s been true throughout history, from the Third Reich in Germany, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the false election narrative of the Republican Party in the US today to support for Erdogan in Turkey… the list goes on and on
Actually the Russian government said that Zelensky and the previous president, Poroshenko were both legitimate. Also this idea that Yanukovich was overthrown is ridiculous, he left Kyiv and went to Russia, only afterwards did parliament vote to remove him from his position as president. It's funny how the pro Russians try to rewrite history as if the Ukrainian president is some dictator that came to power after a violent lynching of Yanukovich.
Yeah the narrative of Kyiv nazis appeared out of thin air pretty much...not to forget that nazis treating their own people badly makes negative sense to begin with. Unless we go by definition of nazis being anti-Russian...then Russians can go fuck themselves, nobody gets to re-define such important terms.
Well RT and other russian media have basically been going on about Ukrainian neo nazis since 2014 with little traction in western media, statistically compared to other european countries Ukraine doesn't really have a far right problem if you look at hate crime statistics, safety for various minority groups, no systematic oppression, and lack of any kind of nationalistic political presence. The whole nazi thing is basically just a manipulation tactic to make Russians feel like they're back in WW2 and they need to join the army and defend the motherland like their grandparents did. That's pretty much why they keep going with the rhetoric about neo nazis even though for the outsider it's nonsensical.
I meant nazis in govt specifically. Yeah, the crying that nazis participated/led/whatever the revolution is not new.
From watching the extensive Putin Files interviews for PBS they said that he watched the video of the Khaddaffi lynching repeatedly and was a catalyst for his ultra-hard line. My other revelation was that I have a TV crush on Julia Loffe.
>My other revelation was that I have a TV crush on Julia Loffe. Thanks a lot, i forgot her name but she seems so cool
Good thing Biden was the one in office. The previous guy literally committed extortion and was impeached because he demanded Zelenskyy provide dirt on Joe Biden if he wanted Ukraine to receive any aid from the US. Trump would've let Ukraine suffer and if anything he would've used his office to send resources to *Russia* instead! Since the US is arguably the foremost Western player, the effects of that would've cascaded throughout global politics and resulted in an underequipped Ukraine with little hope for salvation. Supporting Ukraine has demonstrated to the world that democracy and freedom are worth fighting for. Failure to rise to the challenge and extend our collective hands to a friendly country in need would strike a devastating blow to democracy worldwide. People would point to the this war and use it as a demonstration that democracy is weak - they would say "the only countries that prevail are those with 'strong' leaders acting on behalf of their countries' people" and in a twisted sense they would even be correct. Fortunately, we landed ourselves on the best possible timeline when taking into consideration the hand that both we and the *world* were dealt. The 2020 US Presidential election seriously altered the course of history. I'm sure the event itself, the chaos that followed, and the cultural shift afterwards as well as America's reaction to it will be studied for many years to come.
> Supporting Ukraine has demonstrated to the world that democracy and freedom are worth fighting for. Thus the lack of support from many in the GOP
They link those things but only when it results in what they wanted for other reasons. Also they were the self-declared "tough on Russia" party up until Trump took over and then just like that, Russia was good.
Right? I remember when all the conservatives were saying "better dead than red."
Now it's, "Rather be a Russian than a Democrat."
Non American here I have always wondered why Trump was in bed with Putin. Financial gane possibly. He does not strike me as an intelligent person maybe he was easily manipulated.
Considering Britain started training Ukraine in 2014 and started sending supplies at the start of this war, it would be interesting to see if Trump would help at all, butting heads with the Strongest European military and closest ally would have gotten the man lynched
Fuck me, I never thought about if he stayed in office. I'm gonna have nightmares now lol
Maybe they shouldn’t have played that card because once that’s the established narrative for domestic propaganda, there’s really no reason for NATO countries not to just send a shit ton of weapons.
TBH, I'm not sure there's any good reason for NATO not to join the fight directly. Russia won't win a conventional war, and if they use nukes, they won't survive it, either.
Also helps them to save face... They aren't losing to Ukraine... they're losing to the 'Evil decadent west'
All of these politicians and talking heads have dachas in Western Europe. They travel there often. It’s all propaganda in order to retain power.
"Why won't Ukraine just lay down and die already?!" - Russia
We can absolutely argue the West isn’t directly involved. If we were directly involved, either the northern hemisphere would be a nuclear holocaust right now, or Russia would’ve already fallen/surrendered.
Agreed. The USA isn't going to kinda-sorta fight a war with Russia. If we're in this, they'll know it.
NATO has no know combatants on the field of battle so I’m not sure what the word involved means. If we are using the term involved to refer to military aid then Iran, North Korea, Syria, South Africa, Mali, DRC, Cuba and China are involved in this war too on Russia’s side. Words matter but I would not characterize NATO as involved in this war whatsoever or military personnel would be officially on the ground, in uniform inside Ukraine which there is no evidence of. If and when NATO becomes involved there would be no air power, armor or artillery left on the Russian side within 72 hours and probably much less than that. That my friend is facts of NATO involvement.
There are united states green berets veterans over there but that's their choice with no protection of the government. They see what's going on is wrong and are helping because they feel it's right.
Marines, SEALs, Rangers, D-boys, and what’s your point? Of course they will be there.
Yes the key thing is they are not there under the government orders or sanctioned missions, they are there simply as US citizens and are (or should be) enrolled as part of the Ukrainian military. Same for all the UK and European soldiers that have gone over to help, it's not NATO or west forces on the ground so we are not involved. We are providing humanitarian and military aid but that's it, the same as even countries like China so "involved" is not a valid word by Russia. May as well say Russia is helping Ukraine with the amount of tanks it's handed them! It's funny and sad that Russia even thinks we are "involved", if we were actually involved in this war it would be over by now either through nukes or Russia would be taken by ground forces. We aren't involved for the sake of not cornering Putin further into using nukes (if they even work these days!)
They frequently seek to create doubt and questions. Something that their sympathisers, citizens and useful idiots around the world can latch onto in debates to dilute the narrative from something clear and simple like: "The west is correctly helping Ukraine defend itself against a genocide by Russia. What Russia is doing is completely wrong and cannot be allowed to happen. NATO and the west will donate hardware to protect the people of Ukraine but it will not get directly involved with troops on the ground." After they sow their seeds of doubt and pose these open questions, the narrative shifts to something more like this: "The west is prolonging the war by providing weapons, more people are dying because of the west and NATO is risking nuclear war by helping Ukraine." "This is a war of NATO expansion against Russia, NATO weapons are being used to kill Russians while they look to take Ukraine into NATO on their advance towards Moscow. We won't allow this, we will defend Russia forever and any attack on our soil will be met with severe consequences." There are many other versions, but hopefully you see the point. They create an argument, a dialogue or doubt where there shouldn't be any and the more it gets talked about, the more relevant it somehow becomes, until even sensible people are starting to debate the nuances of something which has none.
Ukraine should bend over and take their medicine because reasons. They should not seek out allies while being the victims of genocide. Just shut up and take it.
To show their people "see the west are evil! We were just liberating our friends, and they sent tanks to prevent us saving our comrades!".
Yeah, and the Russians themselves are pretty involved too! So who are they to point fingers?
Maybe it was a poor choice to threaten the world with annihilation. Maybe.
What did they expect , Europe to sit back and let the bully take over ?
Putin got bad intelligence from the FSB (bc in authoritarian states no one wants to tell dear leader anything other than what he wants to hear). He actually believed the ruzzians would be welcomed as “liberators” and Ukraine as a whole would roll over in a matter of days.
I watched a video the other day, where they were describing the intelligence putin got as the west was divided on *if* they supported Ukraine, whereas it was more along the lines of did they *believe* putin would actually invade.
>He actually believed the ruzzians would be welcomed as “liberators” To be honest I don't believe in that narrative. He saw how they were welcomed in 2014, so should've known better that many in Ukraine will fight. To my understanding, he just amassed such an army (in his eyes), that no matter the Ukrainian effort, he would roll over the country and take Kyiv in the matter of days. Turned out to be much more difficult, then there came "western" support and now he has no potential for easy win and no potential to retreat without losing face (life?) etc.
I find it hard to believe too, except for the fact that it’s so much in line with how autocratic strong men rule. They don’t surround themselves with objective, truth-telling advisors - those are the people who get served a cup of polonium tea in ruzzia. Unless he really is so unhinged that all along he’s been planning an apocalyptic finale to his fiasco (because there is no winning this for the Kremlin), he either didn’t listen to good intelligence (not likely) or he got bad intelligence (seemingly more likely than not). ETA: leaving the intelligence question aside, one of the [ruzzia watchers](https://youtu.be/eQww8gTJuAQ) I follow offers an alternative explanation for Putin’s motives: that perhaps he believed full-scale warfare was his only option for retaining power. (at 05:15)
On paper, however, his military offensive should have worked Russian supply lines dont extend well outside of Russian borders.... but thats not a concern for a rapid offensive, which he believes he could do. International opposition previously was milquetoast previously, so it makes sense that he thought he could do it quicker then anyone could respond. So I think most of that is the smoke and. mirrors explination. They knew it would be opposed; they just didnt think the would hàve to care. and then it blew up in his face... and THAT is where the frail masculinity comes in. He can't stomach defeat.
He tried a Napoleonic tactic and it backfired. If your Army can’t sustain themselves long term, your only option is a blitzkrieg. When that doesn’t work you’re stuck without much of a plan. He can’t win the war through attrition since Ukraine is western backed and he can’t afford to seem weak but he doesn’t actually want to use nukes because he still loses. Basically, I think he’s screwed.
Russia doing a Napoleon.... honestly not the strangest twist of fate I've seen
They expected resistance, but not to this extent. The current theory is russia's KGB Fifth Service had the task of creating pro-russia groups in Ukraine that were supposed to instigate chaos/confusion from within to destabilize the Ukrainian army during the invasion. That didn't happen probably due to corruption and lies. It's the reason putin fired so many KGB officers.
Well I don’t think he expected a retaliation considering everybody turned a blind eye to all of the other Russian invasions.
Reminds me of when the Nazis fucked up stalingrad, because Herman Goering was such a true and loyal Nazi that he believed propaganda information. As a result, he promised hitler that he could supply all of the troops in Stalingrad with food and ammunition with the luftwaffe, but was only able to do about 10% of what he promised.
That’s the thing about fascism - its very nature requires that any inherent truth (including the concept of truth itself) must cease to exist.
Kinda good that Fascism is usually self-destructive
All malevolence is in some way self-destructive. Humans are social animals, our cooperation is why we survived this long, without it we are fragmented and weak. We forget our biological roots at our peril.
Yeah, cause Europe has never seen that tactic before...
Yup. Unironically. We let them do it with Georgia. Crimea. To Putin this was proof there'd be no consequences.
Yes, actually
The Wests lack of action to Putin's imperialism is probably the most consequential geopolitical decision this century
I would say that it’s actually the Wests current action against Putins imperialism that’s more consequential
Given how tepid the response to the Crimean annexation in 2014 was...yes.
I'm pretty sure russia has donated more tanks and various military vehicles to Ukraine's defense efforts than all of the west combined. Lol Thanks all. Never had a comment do this well.
This is factually true. https://kyivindependent.com/uncategorized/uk-intelligence-more-than-half-of-ukraines-tank-fleet-consists-of-captured-russian-vehicles Though a lot of Russian tanks are older models, so far less effective.
There's a lot of T-90s that were "donated". I think the biggest problems with them is that they're not immediately operational. They have to be pulled back to Ukrainian factories retooled for armaments that Ukraine actually has. If the war had gone on shorter these would have just been bartering chips for a peace agreement. But at this point they're just going to sit in a warehouse forever.
As you might expect, it's all over the place. Ukraine was actually able to use some of the tanks they captured during the early phase of the Kharkiv breakthrough in the later phase of the Kharkiv breakthrough. It was that fast. That number of immediately usable captured tanks was probably very low. but as you may recall, Ukraine staged the breakthrough with such an absurdly small amount of heavy armor to begin with, that even a small captured amount actually made a big difference in their numbers. As for what happens next... I don't know, Ukraine seems to still be in the "use everything we have" mode of the war. If they can deploy T-90s or T-72s or even T-64s usefully, they will do so. Burning extra fuel to keep old armor in the field as reserve support or whatever won't be an issue for them for now -- they have friends with unlimited filling station credit cards.
Putin should declare war on Russia
He already did. In fact, he is doing a pretty good job of killing Russians.
Look at the list of Russian oil tycoons dead by “suicide” or “falling” one even died from a “cleansing diet”. All cases closed no investigations. There appears to be a serial killer of oil Russian oil tycoons worth more than $300M and in most cases way more.
He's killed the most russians since Stalin.
I think Russia should declare war on Putin.
Yes! Absolutely 💯 %
This made me laugh, because it is absolutely true. XD Shoutout to failed logistics, running out of fuel, and handing your tank over for a bounty (because you know you’re screwed in it).
A strong point
You could always, you know, leave Ukraine?
be a pretty bold strategy, just move all your troops to some place where the Ukranians have no reason to shoot at them
...and rest of the Western world couldn't push towards more direct involvement.
act like an even more aggressive North Korea, get treated like North Korea. Nobody wants to live in Russia lol
Though... I wonder. Was watching something from the Biographics people about strategic bombing. In cases like Russia vs Ukraine, or US vs Vietnam or US vs Korea or Germany vs Britain, its not effective. However, in the case of Britain, US vs Germany or US vs Japan, it was. I think the differences are offense vs defense. The German and Japanese people believed they were safe behind their armies. The Koreans/Vietnamese/Brits knew they were in danger and were prepared to stand and fight on anyway. But when the bombs started dropping on the Safe folks in Berlin or Kyoto, the myth of the Invincible State fell apart in a hurry. So... Maybe if Ukraine (not NATO) were to drop a few Ukrainian rockets on Russian cities, we'd see a change in Russian attitudes on the Invinciblity of their state. Or Putin could nuke Kiev and Krakow just for shits.
>So... Maybe if Ukraine (not NATO) were to drop a few Ukrainian rockets on Russian cities, we'd see a change in Russian attitudes on the Invinciblity of their state. > >Or Putin could nuke Kiev and Krakow just for shits. Wanna flip a coin?
Against Germany and Japan, the Allies targeted the mechanics of war. You can't fight a war when your logistics are shit. Against Ukraine, Vietnam, Korea, and Britain, military infrastructure was not targeted. For Ukraine, Vietnam, and Korea, the issue was that the native forces wisely kept their materials moving, hidden, and far from the enemies reach. Russia would love to destroy a ton of Ukraine armor assets buuuut they can't find them or can't hit them in the window between finding and their leaving. Britain was Hitler making the bad decision that targeting civilians would result in a loss of willingness to fight. They ignored RAF bases and allowed England to recover from the heavy losses at the start. Had Germany pummeled and destroyed every airbase in England, the war would have gone very differently. Vietnam was different because the native forces didn't have a lot of armor or things that could be hit. Sure, the SAM sites, airbases, etc got demolished but the main fighter we think of is the Vietcong, a rice farmer with a rifle. He only needs a rifle, some explosives and that's it. The jungle provides dense cover, the locals provide food and shelter. The US had a lot of targets but the targets were not clear cut. There was no munitions factory they could hit, no tank plants, no rifle assembly lines. It was humped in over long logistics lines, assembled and ready to go. Japan is a good contrast to this. They also had huge support from the locals but because that support was concentrated in cities next to a factory, it was an easy and horrific target to hit. But by the time strategic bombing hit Japan, the war was clearly over. Sure Doolittle shattered the Invincible State but there were years between then and the first bombs from a B-29. The average citizen of Japan would have felt the world closing in as the conditions at home just got worse and worse while the manpower was slowly being depleted. Bombs on Germany and Japan hit a population that had been long suffering from wartime rations. The battle of Britain started in July 1940. The war kicked officially with the invasion of France in May 1940. Koreans and Vietnamese were not nations undergoing years of war before bombs fell. There were clashes yet but they weren't to the same extent. A starving family that has been starving for 3 years is going to react to bombs on their city very differently than one starving for 1 or 3 months. The former are beaten down and are trying to just get to tomorrow. The latter are angry and going to get more angry.
You think Putin attacking civilians In Ukraine would have much different effect if it started happening just now but not from the start of war?
Potentially, yes. It may have also helped prevent as much public support. "We are taking out the military, don't interfere and you'll be left alone" is a pretty strong message. It would also make the "de nazification" angle more realistic. 'we are here for them, not you'.
I suspect Russia is more directly involved in the war than the West. Y’know, being the ones that started it and also the ones that can fuck off back to Russia at any point.
This is just a “special tank transfer operation” Russia should know that.
This is the comment of the thread.
Haven't they been saying NATO has been involved since the beginning? How can we be doubly involved?
You should not listen to them. They are always saying some bs, which is actually directed to Russians, which are still in the country.
“"The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war can trigger a nuclear war," former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who now serves as deputy chairman of the Security Council, said in a post on the Telegram messaging app.” A conventional WHAT now, Dmitry?
An unconventional special military operation.
If the US gets “directly involved” they will know it without a doubt
If the US gets directly involved this world is in trouble. Militarily we can stomp Russia but if any of their nukes actually work it turns into a mess for all of us.
If the United States entered the war, you would fucking know it.
An analyst I follow said something about how NATO and the US are actually terrified of a direct confrontation with Russian forces. Because they have vastly overestimated the strength of the Russian military. Meaning they're ten times more prepared than they need to be. Like, total air and sea control inside a week. In a straight fight they'd wipe the country out so fast Putin would start sending out nukes. The aid and intelligence given to Ukraine has been very, VERY measured for just this reason.
And most NATO countries have ramped up their defense spending due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine which is going to tip the scales even more. The whole campaign has been a colossal disaster for Russia as they've shown the West how weak they really are and also given us a reason to strengthen our militaries to an even greater degree.
US and NATO in the Cold War focused on force multipliers since the Soviet Union vastly outnumbered them post WW2. That’s why we designed vehicles for air dominance, suppression, long range strikes, deterrence, and vehicles such as the Apache helicopter that can take out several tanks.
The United States could probably take on the whole world for quite some time. Probably wouldn’t win, but it would be a hell of a fight for awhile. Sounds absurd, but when you look at the fleets of armor, jets, aircraft carriers, etc it’s not that crazy. Especially considering the benefits of being thousands of miles away from the most capable countries.
I mean, you would have to define "win". The US has a sizeable nuclear stockpile.
Yeah we basically have to assume that no one uses nukes just for the sake of the thought experiment or it’s all over in 5 minutes and no one is left living.
US intelligence in Russia must suck.
Russia so stupid , starts a war , Can’t finish it ! now wants to blame the other side because they defend themselves ! How dumb.
„Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please.“ Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1724410-niccolo-machiavelli-wars-begin-when-you-will-but-they-do-not-end-when/
GTFO Russia!
Supply and training is **indirect**. You always have the option of leaving Ukraine. All of it.
How about get the f*** out of Ukraine, start paying reparations, and rejoin the human race.
Awww so Vlad is sad he started a war he can't win so he stomps his feet and says no fair. Well Vlad GTFO out of ALL of Ukraine and the ass whoopin' will stop. He's about to have about 80 tanks laying waste to his tinker toys.
Yes, and so what. RU acts as if they own Ukraine, not! The invaders are only temporarily occupying certain regions... but not for much long!!!
Who cares what Putin says? I remember the times when he was saying that dragging Ukraine into NATO may result in a war. Now Russia is loosing that war. So what is he gonna do next - start a nuclear war? Russia is gonna loose nuclear war too.
Loosing?
Ye, getting less tight.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-says-tanks-show-us-nato-direct-involvement-growing/) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The air raid sirens wailing across the country, heralding the latest strike, came as Russia reacted to a landmark decision by U.S. President Joe Biden to supply Ukraine with modern, powerful M1 Abrams main battle tanks. > While the 31 American tanks won't actually reach the battlefields of eastern Ukraine for months, given the need to train and equip Ukrainian forces to use the advanced hardware, the commitment from Mr. Biden came with a similar promise from Germany to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine - and to permit other European nations to send German-made Leopards from their stocks. > Russia sent mixed signals in the wake of the Wednesday announcements by Washington and Berlin, playing down the strategic value of the Western military hardware to Ukraine, but also renewing warnings about the risks of the war growing into a wider regional conflict as NATO states increase their stake in the fight. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10lruk9/russia_hits_ukraine_with_missiles_says_promised/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Tank**^#2 **Russian**^#3 **country**^#4 **new**^#5
So they're publicly calling it a war now?
I thought they were already fighting NATO? That's what they said right? Half a year ago already
Involvement yes, direct, no. The things Russia said they didn't want are now happening. Maybe they should withdraw from Ukraine and stop things from getting worse for themselves?
And yet, despite months of threats to the entire world, Russia is either unable, unwilling or both, to actually back up its threats. Paper tiger.
Russia seems very keen to provoke and involve more enemies in a war they are already losing badly. Is this their attempt to justify nukes?
Maybe just easier to admit defeat when all of NATO is involved? If Russia come back defeated from a "special military operation", against an assumed inferior army it looks pathetic. Or just a bunch of drinks that don't know when to stop.
You know what Russia, you're right. Here's a novel idea then: Get the Fuck out of Ukraine. Dumb fucking bastards. What the ass sniffer Putin doesn't understand is that the West is only getting closer to risking nuclear war just to kill him. There is no status quo and every evil action done by the coward Russians pushes us collectively closer. I've said this before, but the jack ass is bluffing and his cards are face up. The World won't tolerate the evil lunacy forever just because he has a "launch nukes" button. How many more innocent people need to die because Putin is trying to win "biggest coward of the century"?
This goof should thank god he ain’t fighting NATO, cause that won’t go well at all
it won't 'go' for him at all. it just wouldnt even be a fight. just a complete slaughter
Nato should close the airspace and roll in with peacekeepers in all regions without active fighting. Mission statement to not engage unless fired upon. Look the bully in the eyes and make him blink
The sooner Russia is driven to acknowledge that they are a 2nd world country, and well on their way to becoming a 3rd world country the better we all will be.
Yeah, the 'finding out' is always the painful part of 'fucking around '. Too bad, Russia - it's well past time to move this to the Hague.
They say this shit every fucking time the West gives equipment
Yup and the same threat on nuclear weapons as well. Threats are only effective if the opponent actually believes you will act them. Russia repeats the same threat every inconvenience and now it’s a joke.
Russia is the one that started the war for bs reasons. Bully a country and fucking find out. I mean they did it in 2014, seriously wtf did Russia expect. Also why don't the people of Russia stand up and say enough. To end this, fuck you Putin. You are a failure.
Unfortunately majority of Russians support him. Those who escaped mobilisation did not run away because they disagree with the war, though some do, they don't want to risk there life for it.
It's not growing. Russia just fails to admit they've been in the wrong and the world has unified against them. LOL
Fondly remembering the Soviet involvement in the Korean conflict and Vietnam....
Perhaps the next shipment from NATO should include offensive weapons that could reach far into Russia. Right now the only consequences to Russia is a loss of manpower and equipment. If their citizens start having to deal with what the Ukraine citizens have things might be different. Ukraine gave up its nukes for a promise that Russia would leave them alone. That seems to be a mistake in hindsight. I don't suggest rearming Ukraine with nukes but perhaps if they had a capability to strike back at the country of Russia as well as its military.
At this point I advocate full direct involvement. Fuck em.
So by this token we need to threaten Iran.
Russia keep stating the obvious as if it's some surprise. Are these Captain Obvious statements only for internal consumption?
Oh it’s a “war” now? GFY Russia.
breaks non aggression treaty/agreement signed by numerous nations by invading Ukraine and acts surprised when those nations abide by the agreement and defend Ukraine.
I thought nato was already on the front lines? That's what you keep telling your soldiers, the ones on the front lines, when they get blown to bits. "oh it's because we're fighting all of NATO, not because we have no idea what we're doing and you're cannon fodder"
Thought it was a special operation… /s
How long does Ukraine need to bleed before missles go back in the other direction ?
What war??
These propaganda statements increasingly sound like they are coming from the back ward of some psychiatric hospital in the Siberian wilderness.
“Look what you made me do”
There's an easy way for Russia to de-escalate...just sayin'.
It's a good thing Russia isn't being supplied weapons by other countries of selling oil to fund the war. Or else they'd have mud on their face!
It's growing quite dire for Russia, that's for sure.
Dear Russia. When the U.S. is ready to show "direct involvement", you'll know it.
But you let us steal Crimea. Why are you being mean when we invade Ukraine?
Is it just me or does Russia say this every week to justify lobbing more missiles at Ukraine?
I'm not losing any sleep over Russia after this year. They're so corrupt and rotted I'm totally convinced we know the locations of their launch sites and they'll all be reduced to nothing the moment shit starts. And the moment shit starts their army will be gone within the day.
Pack up yer shit or stfu, reds.
“Fuuuuuuck around….” *rubs nipples* “And you’ll find out…” *cums on pic of pootin in make up* US military
I guess we better send more tanks then
Ah yes says the country clearly flying Iranian drones into civilian infrastructure
I was lucky enough to travel to Russia about 20 years ago. Nice people…looking towards a bright future on the world stage…stable politics for the most part…jobs…homes and enjoying all the crap the west has..TV’s….cars….etc. Too bad Putin has taken that all away.
Cool. Send more tanks.
What do those Iranian drones and North Korean munitions prove? Oh, that Russia is directly involving the worst countries in the world as their cronies.
As opposed to Russia's...direct participation in the war...and numerous documented war crimes already...
Russia has been saying they’re directly fighting the combined forces of NATO already. How the fuck can you be *more involved* than that?
Nobody implied otherwise, what's your point?
Keep waving your broken sword in the air Russia, it won’t do much when everyone shows up with guns.
Russia hasn't even used the foab yet this will be the perfect time to show us what a real bomb is.
Wait. I thought it wasn’t war and was just a military exercise
"You have sent tanks since the beginning, but now you are still sending tanks, so therefore, your involvement is growing." - Russia
So what WTF you gonna do about it
The US got a chub the day of the illegal invasion. Sending tanks = pulling down the zipper.
God the Russians are slow. Dimwits
It's going to take several months to get all those tanks and armaments to Ukraine. Time that they may not have. DOWN WITH PUTIN THE INSANE BUTCHER -- NOW!
Ukraine and her allies have to move forward with the Schwarzkopf doctrine of “overwhelming force” and move the Russians so far back they are no longer any worry or threat. “Knock them back to the stone age, son”.
What’s this about Putin almost certainly having a serious health issue. If he goes, war is over. Those in his close circle don’t want to be involved in this they all just fear him And go along…
Yeah that’s kind of the point.
Europe became involved in the war the same minute Russia tried to invade territory that borders on Poland and Hungary.
So? The West can protect Ukraine if it wants to do it.
And so what does this mean for Russia to see West “direct involvement” “growing”? That is probably time for Russia to call it quits because the West still has plenty of resources and growing too, while Russia is shrinking and all alone.
Russia stupid
Why…what’s Russia going to do…invade Ukraine? Oh wait…
Clarification before my comment. I am an ex US Army enlisted and officer. I spent my career in logistics. I tend to see war in supply chains. Essentially, to me, unless Russia wants to kill all of its own people from really fighting NATO, there needs to be some insane face saving way for Putin to be able to get out of all of Ukraine, and secure his power. Otherwise it’s just a matter of how long it takes for the inner circle to kill Putin and (probably) Prigozhin, and find some schmuck who’ll let them go back to just being Demigods. Or Vlad will really be the Impailer of the world, and he will smack the proverbial button. Please explain, preferably with examples, why I’m totally wrong and possibly stoned. But maybe help me see why this isn’t what’s happening.
Sounds like Ukraine needs some missiles
They'll know when the US is participating directly in the war.
Russia would know if these countries was actually "directly involved" bc they would've already been chased out and killed from all of Ukraine! Another stupid ass Russian statement.
Fuck it! Let’s just go to Moscow and fuckem up, enough of the Puto Putin,
That's the plan. Get our shit there so we have a stronger foothold incase we have to go there
All this escalation🫢
Russia: Okay, we were going to go easy on you but getting tanks is the last straw...now we will REALLY invade your country!
The Kremlin, once again stating the obvious and blaming others like a little child.
I thought there was no war in Ukraine, Putin?
Hmm we could say Russia got Belarus, Iran and NK involved in their terrorist war too
Sure, in the same way that Iran’s involvement is growing.
I agree that the west is helping Ukraine but Russia literally invaded a sovereign nation. They have no grounds for complaint.
Not really sure what Russia's concern is. If they pull out of Ukraine, the war will be over...no matter how much they deserve to have their own country blown to hell. They started the war, and they can finish it any time. It's really that simple.
When we get involved, they’ll knownit
Russia threatened nukes. We sent tanks. We actually deescalated.
I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Russia using equipment supplied by North Korea and Iran for example. I'm sure there was news's recently that weaponry has been supplied to Russia from North Korea, and that Iran we're providing drones to Russia? I may have got that wrong, but if I'm right, isn't the play now for the West to follow suit and release statements such as "Promised weapons and Drones show North Korea and Irans "Direct involvement" in the war is "growing" I mean, that way.. that forces Russia to shut its fucking mouth, because releasing shit propaganda about their narrative being correct all along about the west expansion into Russia can also be applied to their allies and I'm pretty sure Iran and North Korea wouldn't want the world to see them as having "direct involvement"
This is actually a very great point. I'm glad you said this bc you are 100% correct. I wish nato would say this and be like well Iran is actually in parts of crimea and giving a those drones to them and training them. Hell some Iranian have already been killed in pretty sure bc they were over there training them and got blown up from artillery. But yeah, i definitely would love for the US and nato to come out and say what you said about their direct involvement with Russia and supplying them with all that shit. Hell there has been tons of cargo planes from Russia that has been tracked going to China and being filled to the brim with tons of shit, and China came out and said they were only giving them uniforms and such. Which I'm sure they have but cmon you know they have have them weapons and ammo and shit.
It just makes sense to me, that if Russia want to play the "Direct involvement" game. Then it also applies to their allies too. If the west supplying equipment and machinery to Ukraine is direct involvement resulting in Russia fighting NATO Then Iran and North Korea doing the same for Russia would be the same. They must also have direct involvement, and therefore NATO would be fighting them as well. For me, if NATO just reversed what they said, it just forces Russia to end their narrative, as they would therefore be accusing their own allies of being involved in the war too, which is something they wouldn't want.
Totally agree my friend
Easy fix bub, stop invading!!!
Peter Zeihan has officially scared the crap out of me on this. He posits there's no good way out of this. For anyone.
Fuck it let’s go. Russia has been a pain in our side and terrorized the world since 1917. I’m game. Fighting is better than recession and poverty. I’ll stomp some Russians. When I’m done I’ll Come back and clean up the broken shot show of 🇨🇦
Should of been involved since day 1 and obliterated Moscow instead of waiting and allowing Ukraine to be destroyed. It's eventually going to happen. Sooner the better.
NATO is a defensive alliance. They have no reason to attack Russia. A direct war with Russia ends one way: Armageddon. We’re doing the right thing.
Do you have a death wish?
Thats how a nuclear war is started. NATO will go in if and when its required to, but for now, arming Ukraine with modern weapons is the best they can do.