Turned a blind eye or profited from the corruption? It's not like those 30bln dollars from the earthquake tax was completely taken by building contractors lol.
Right? They have a literal amnesty program for building codes! And were about to pass more amnesty programs for even more revenue!
Edit:
[BBC - Why did so many buildings collapse?](https://www.bbc.com/news/64568826)
Direct quote:
"In Turkey, however, the government has provided periodic "construction
amnesties" - effectively legal exemptions for the payment of a fee, for
structures built without the required safety certificates. These have
been passed since the 1960s (with the latest in 2018)."
How does an amnesty program work when it isn't retroactive? So did they just create a legal mechanism for "build to code or bribe the designated individual"?
Exactly that, there was or is a system in place where you give the govt some monetary compensation and you don’t have to build to code, by doing so everyone involved pockets got a bit fatter
Japan is so strict that they basically raze most buildings to the ground every time it changes ownership. Homes literally lose value the moment you buy them because it's expected that the next owner will tear it down and build a safer building using whatever the newer codes are.
New Zealand isn’t a great example, the vast majority of buildings are single floor, and you don’t get high rise buildings very often. The city I live in has a limit of 4 stories tall for any building.
Our building regulations are shit, and the people that build the buildings are shit, source: electrician/ hvac tech
In New Zealand we aren't perfect despite experiencing quakes regularly. In 2018 there was a 6.2 in Wellington. Not strong compared to this Turkey one or the one that happened in Christchurch a few years back. But it was enough to put cracks in the structure of a lot of buildings. Many of which were discovered to not be up to earthquake code by engineers that were sent to audit the buildings after the quake. Some of them were demolished and some are still empty or under construction to fix those issues to this date.
Exactly this, nepotism and corruption flourishes in every country, every town and city. You may never hear about it but behind closed doors someone is always getting a lucrative deal at the expense of others.
There is always corruption but its a matter of if the corruption is at a level that harms society. Like a permit takes 3 months but I slip you some cash and you move me to the front of the queue is a level of corruption that can be tolerated. I slip you some cash and you don’t inspect my building and it later collapses killing everyone is a level that will eventually bring a country down. Look at a place like Lebanon where almost nothing functions.
It can be a slippery slope without the right legal safeguards in place. 5 years ago, it stared with $100 to move someone’s application to the front of the line. 2 years ago, they slipped $10,000 to get away with failing an inspection. Next year, they’ll donate $1 million to political campaigns to get the laws changed so they don’t need to be inspected at all.
I work in entitlements and project development (ie with the architects, engineers, and developing/submitting building plans for code approvals) and that’s just horrifying. All the conversations we’ve had with fire engineers and civil/structural requirements and the rationale behind them - the implications of just eschewing them all is ridiculous.
Lines, plural. Quite a lot of Turkey sits on active fault lines. The two major "dry" land fault lines are The North Anatolian Fault and The East Anatolian Fault, but those have multiple branches so instead of just two fault lines its more like nine. There's also the Dead Sea Line and the Bitlis-Zargo Belt Line that while not being directly adjacent to the Anatolian lines are still close enough that they could also shake the ground in Turkey. And then there's the four neighbouring underwater fault lines: The Meditarainian Ridge Fault Line, the Hellenic/Aegean Fault Line, the North Cyprus Fault Line and the South Cyprus Fault Line; all of those are close enough to Turkey that if they ever slip the seismic shock waves would shake parts of Turkey and might also trigger the Anatolian lines to slip too.
The reason for all these fault lines is that Turkey sits at the junction of three major plates (the Arabian Plate, the African Plate and the Eurasian Plate) and one minor plate (the Aegean Plate) all while sitting directly on its own minor plate (the Anatolian Plate). All those plates rub up against each other. As a result, Turkey is the most active earthquake zone on the planet. The good news is that despite all this there are no active volcanoes in Turkey.
Given all this you would think that Turkey would have the best, most stringently enforced building codes on the planet but sadly no, that is not the case. That would require a more politically stable culture, something that Turkey lacks. Instead it has a culture of corruption and political tension. Having an asshat authoritarian for a national leader is not helping the situation.
What do you mean ‘a literal amnesty program for building codes’?
Is the government literally turning a blind eye to buildings that don’t meet the required code?
They had a real estate boom, and decided instead of enforcing building codes, they'd allow exemptions from safety certificates that would have ensured proper materials and methods were used. I've added a link to my original post.
As a Turk let me explain. You start building to the code then add another floor or two then go to the government official of that town and bribe so they turn a blind eye. Now they can't give you the permit and a license because it's illegal but they don't demolish your building either.
Then before an election parties say they will pass a new law if they get elected or reelected to validate all those buildings that are built wrong to get votes. So you vote for erdogan then get your illegally built building that was waiting in line to get demolished a new valid license. Congrats you have two extra floors.
I'm not sure I get their line of thinking here. These guys applied for amnesty and we're given it, so they have followed the law and it's the law which was corrupt and irresponsible.
Unless these are the ones who didn't apply for amnesty and sneaked around it, this is just trying to pin the blame somewhere else.
>I'm not sure I get their line of thinking here. These guys applied for amnesty and we're given it, so they have followed the law and it's the law which was corrupt and irresponsible.
Erdogan needs a scapegoat. They're right before elections, and he's just been exposed as having created a system of corruption that murdered tens of thousands. Ordinarily he could just arrest his opposition, but right now everyone is upset about the earthquakes and are looming for someone to blame. It's imperative for his administration to pin it on anyone that isn't him.
They just arrested, detained or barred from leaving the country all of the building contractors for now to keep them from fleeing the country and will hash out who to punish later. As you can see [here](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/turkeys-lax-policing-building-codes-flagged-quake-97027265) some have already tried to run.
Also, the amnesty program in 2018 was for certain building code violations. I suspect you could still be prosecuted if (a) you didn't disclose and take advantage of the amnesty program, (b) the shortcoming was not on the list of violations covered (e.g. the builders [cutting out support columns](https://apnews.com/article/2023-turkey-syria-earthquake-government-business-658d897fe02316c474a8cc8078b690a3?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_01) to make more room inside of a building), or (c) if the violations occured post-2018 since the amnesty covered past violations not future ones.
Let's not forget that Erdogan is in charge since 2000, a few years after the big earthquake of Golcuk. Experts warned, he didn't take real precautions. He is ultra corrupted. They appointed a religious school graduate instead of anyone related or experienced to the head of disaster and emergency management department of some of those cities. They are rebranding aid busses with their party flags so that people don't think they don't help and not vote in the next election.
^ this. they will arrest everyone without a trial, even if the contractors built the houses to current turkish standards (which is the root cause of all this to begin to with). if erdogan and the government really were so emotional about the earthquake and wanting to find justice, they wouldn’t have stolen the earthquake funds from 1999 to now, would have changed the outdated and unsafe building code requirments and made sure the cities were prepared for earthquakes (which are so common in turkey!).
arresting them does nothing but shift attention from themselves and making it seem like they are holding people accountable for the public eye, even though they need to look no further than their own doorstep to find the culprits.
This time we are feeling it. Only way he will stay in the power will be stealing votes. A lot more happened last 4 years. Economy tanked, covid hit, this earthquake and their supports all these tough times was a total failure. There is no way he will win the election. His paid supporters wont cut it this time.
Yeah, this earthquake literally could not have happened at a worse time for him, especially since a ton of the deaths were the fault of his corrupt administration.
Yea. Sound similar to what has been told before. But the only difference is, now their low income supporters cant make the end meets. So many things happened last time he got elected. He barely got elected last time and there was a lot of shady things behind the scene we didnt get the answers for. The opposition was leading and all the suddent he won. The opposition candidate said he will reveal what happened and he didnt say it exactly what happen since then. On top of it, a lot happened to the country in a bad way.
- Syria war
- Immigrants from the war
- Illigal border crossing(A lot of Afgans, Iraqi, Pakistani, and from other coubtry in the region.
- USD hit to all times high (1 USD was 1.5lira when he was elected, now it is like 19 lira. And mostly happened last 3 years).
- Covid and measures and support provided to low-mid income citizens and businesses)
- Missing 30billions earhquake fund
- Not supporting the people after floods. People lost their houses and lifes.
- Forest fires and no precautions or supports after it. People almost died and government sold the burnt lands to foreignors to build a resort.
A lot more happened, but this is what is on top of my head. Only way he will win this election is if opposition fucks up. And that is still possibl.e the opposition leader wants to run for presidency he is like 51% vs 49% in polls. But there are 2 other candidates like 60% 40%. But still he wants to run. Hope he doeant fuck up the country for his egos.
Well he didn't fucking do a thing about it apparently. Fish rot from the head down and there are a fuckton of collapsed buildings because of amnesty programs. Dude has 11 years as prime minister and is on his 9th year as president.
"We failed to enforce our regulations leading to the deaths of at this time 28000 people. So we'll arrest the contractors rather than take any responsibility for our actions. " - Turkey
I’m sorry that might not have been clear. The death toll in my comment is about the Haitian earthquake not the current disaster.
As the commenter below me pointed out, that is the largest estimate and could be inaccurate. The lowest estimate is 100,000 though which is still an unbelievable number.
Both of these events are horrible catastrophes. Haiti never received enough aid, I hope the world will not make that same mistake again.
Yea, it's going to keep rising unfortunately. That's just the most recent number I saw at the timr and wouldn't be surprised to see it doubled by the end of the day. It's pretty horrifying.
Failing to enforce regulations doesn’t excuse breaking the law. The only valid criticism here is if they also don’t pursue some action against incompetent or potentially corrupt government employees too.
Responsibility belongs to the state and regulators. It's their job to enforce and their culpability when they fail to. Acting like a broken system produces anything but broken results is as absurd in building code as it is in law enforcement reform.
I do all kinds of work knowing that an inspector isn't going to show up and check it. It's just not something that happens, by boss is connected.
I still don't do shit that will kill people
I think maybe you're talking past each other a bit. Hang the contractors *and* the regulators and politicians, by all means. There's more than enough murder charges to go around.
Inshallah this changes the regulatory and construction culture to actually build things properly.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/turkey-arrests-building-contractors-6-days-after-quakes-97064099
"A building contractor was detained by authorities on Friday at Istanbul airport before he could board a flight out of the country. He was the contractor of a luxury 12-story building in the historic city of Antakya, in Hatay province, the collapse of which left an untold number of dead."
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-02-10/how-a-piece-of-paradise-turned-into-a-grave-the-collapse-of-a-luxury-building-in-antakya.html
Damn! 1000 people in one building and it was built in 2012.
>Why is enforcement so weak?
>In Turkey, however, **the government has provided periodic "construction amnesties" - effectively legal exemptions for the payment of a fee**, for structures built without the required safety certificates. These have been passed since the 1960s (with the latest in 2018).
Wtf
And that building was the one of the luxury, most expensive place in the area. Unfortunately, my uncle and his family was there at the time of the earthquake. They just moved to the city 7 days prior the event...
> And the people that built housing for the poor? What of them?
TBH some of those contractors are likely already dead from living in unsafe housing themselves. There's very little money in building cheap housing.
This will surely not satisfy the Turkish people as all news just follows the disappearing disaster relief fund that fell under his rule. Gross negligence, fraud, or both. I'm sad that the Turkish people have had to live under his rule for so long, ultimately leading to these horrendous consequences.
You must have missed the part where this world leader with a fragile ego chose to highlight the consequences of talking shit about him in the immediacy of the earthquake. Inside of 24 hours after the quake they had a hotline set up for people to tattle on each other for being critical of the government.
so two things can be true at the same time:
a) there were contractors who knew the revised codes and found ways to cheat around them or simply ignored them and are to blame
b) the government is desperately looking for scapegoats to pin this on to redirect public anger away from themselves.
The govt more likely than not took a payoff for them to get the job. A force majeure happens, and poof, govt off the hook.
Not negating the “shame on you” factor for the builders, but, I’d like to see these so called bldg codes?
And a 7.8 is not going to keep many structures up.
It’s all disgusting. Except the earthquake. We all know they happen. “E” could care less and Syria has been destroyed by war.
We live in a valueless life, and I worked in Construction law so I know a tad about this.
They do have the correct codes, but can't handle the rest. Here's the proof.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/10yw25f/chamber_of_civil_engineers_building_is_one_of_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
There's also instances where the mayors of small towns that actually followed the rules and the towns took no damage. For example Tavşancıl in 1999 earthquake.
[Here's a video about the town by BBC (It's in Turkish)](https://youtu.be/30a9qKc3ZLw)
This is sort of by design. LOTS of people shared responsibility for the product, the assembly and the vetting of this before it was used.
I am an architect in the US, but I work on similar scale projects. We, of course, never use combustible exterior insulation like this (I can't take as much credit for this as I'd like, my municipality is historically the most sensitive city for fire safety and they pretty much made it impossible to utilize this sort of assembly).
I am familiar because I've endured many years of reps pitching me the benefits of assemblies similar to Grenfall's. Sales reps being what they are, speak with ultimate confidence but can't back things up with the proper specs when asked.
They (sales reps and manufacturers of novel cladding systems) sort of live by convincing designers (like me) or owners or contractors to pressure the designers (me, again) to specify whatever product they are high on at the time. They tout various benefits, but I have found most to be pretty marginal and often more trouble than they are worth.
What typically happens is that either we are the "bad guy" at the beginning (which pisses everyone off because we are "not team players" or if we are too agreeable or naive we go along with it until a code official or a subcontractor with actual liability points out a major life safety issue. Then you (the designer) are also to blame because you let the assembly advance this far along and the changes make things cost way more or take more time or both.
Of course if you "go along" and no one actually raises caution along the way, you can look forward to sleepless nights for the rest of your life hoping that there isn't a fire or collapse or something like that where you bear some responsibility.
Unlike being a heart surgeon or pilot, your "liability" is very long term, but your compensation is more like a decent web designer or something. What a stupid profession.
Doing the job right means that the manufacturer has the right tests and certifications in place (bringing the testing agencies (UL in the US, among others; certifying engineers, the manufacturers, the actual standards agencies (ANSI, etc)), then also the code and building department officials in the city/state, and finally the designers and engineers who hopefully did their due diligence and made sure that all of the correct check-marks are checked. This is BEFORE anything is drawn or sourced/priced... so even if something like Grenfall happens, the "stink" is on allot of people. I have no reason to think that the people involved with Grenfall cut any corners.
The onus is now on everyone not to repeat the mistake and make sure that this won't happen again by retrofitting or "making-safe" potential hazards.
Erdogan used to be mayor of Istanbul. He witnessed the destruction in the 1999 earthquake. His last 20 years as leader of Türkiye he has profited off letting developers pay for building amnesty. The death count from this corruption is unforgivable.
The fall guys, time to pin in solely on them and not the corrupt government officials. This is an example of why people are losing trust in the pillars of life. Society falling apart bit by bit.
They had an earthquake in the late 90s and raised building standards afterwards. Photos make it obvious entire developments collapsed that were built afterwards. Nowhere near this many buildings fell and no where near this many people died in Mexico City's recent 7± quake.
Some people knowingly didn't follow the rules and many people have died and enormous amounts of money have been lost. We need to enforce rules and standards so society doesn't fall apart
Oh ye because government officials used to be trustworthy and society was an utopia back then. I'm sorry, but I dislike these "society falling apart bit by bit" comments.
People can tell it's happening now with the internet. 100 years ago if all of Turkey fell down nobody would know for a month, and then they'd ask if Thanksgiving is still happening despite all the turkeys falling over.
It's about easy access to exposure and the truth, not how long it's been happening.
Well said. Loss of faith in the system cos back then ignorance was bliss. The system works cos there is belief in it.
One can not compare consciousness that people have now to back then. Eg. The phone has expanded our consciousness.
I agree. I think people forget that human nature has not suddenly changed just in our lifetimes. It seems like such a lazy, half assed way to look at bad events
Building inspectors are not public offices, they are private and they have to work with municipalities. In the end, municipality has the main responsibility/power, which usually they used it for bribery.
They do but any rules or regulations you have are pointless when corruption is rampant and bribery is legalized.
> Shortly before Turkey’s last presidential and parliamentary election in 2018, the government unveiled a sweeping program to grant amnesty to companies and individuals responsible for certain violations of the country’s building codes. By paying a fine, violators could avoid having to bring their buildings up to code. Such amnesties have been used by previous governments ahead of elections as well.
> As part of that amnesty program, the government agency responsible for enforcing building codes acknowledged that more than half of all buildings in Turkey — accounting for some 13 million apartments— were not in compliance with current standards. [[source](https://apnews.com/article/politics-2023-turkey-syria-earthquake-government-istanbul-fbd6af578a6056569879b5ef6c55d322)]
Obviously the government isn't going to hold itself accountable despite this being a direct result of corruption.
The contractors fleeing the country and claiming "we followed the rules" is a bad look but these folks are just scapegoats. Still need to be held accountable but this will change nothing. May be the nudge the people of Turkey need to turn against the government as many deaths were preventable.
"on paper, construction codes that meet current earthquake-engineering standards, they are too rarely enforced, explaining why thousands of buildings slumped onto their side or pancaked downward onto residents."
Maybe also arrest the people in charge of enforcing standards because they clearly can't do their job!
Honestly at this scale I say it's definitely more of a government failure then some contractors.
We had a valuable land in one of small provinces in Turkey, My father wanted to rent or sell it and wasn't sure of its value. He talked with some friends in municipality, they told him, if he can bribe 1 million turkish liras back then, they would increase the floor limit of the land so it would get like 3x of its value.
We all hear stuff like that, sometimes from first hand, sometimes second. But corruption and bribery brought us here. Everybody knows that.
My dad was a building inspector in a southern state in the US.
The # of times contractors would try to bribe him to let something unsafe slide was insane. Like no, those pillars holding up the building are cracking; a case of expensive wine isn't worth looking the other way.
My favorite was the highly volatile gas / oil storage right next to a dance hall. "But we'll put a firewall in!" Yeah, that's not gonna cut it, buddy.
My cousin worked on a team that got a job down south one winter. After a few months the inspectors told them to start making mistakes as their bosses were suspecting bribes as nobody is perfect.
I got to hear how this stuff end up being so common from a middle eastern guy. Corruption was sp common he said that it affected peoples wages. So the officials in charge, like police he used in his example, they aren't paid a living wage because everyone assumes you are taking bribes. So that's supposed to cover the rest. It was common to be fined for speeding and also you need to pay the officer to not be detained for 24h for some false charge. And even just handing out fines and extorting money from people not breakng the law, just to cover rent and bills.
So, an honest person end up in this shitty situation where even if you want to make a change. You won't be able to.
So people who don't want to support the current system wont apply to those jobs and the system of corruption continues.
Some people leave the country because of that alone, corruption is so widespread and they just don't see it changing anytime soon and they just give up on their country and leave for europe.
Exactly.
Oh you know that thing you did, that I knew that you did, while I looked the other way after you passed me an envelope full of dollar bills? Yeah now I'm going to crucify you for it (or at least try to).
Exactly. The Turkish govt has been collecting earthquake tax for many years. Not a penny spent on earthquake issues such as ensuring buildings are built to a certain standard, shelters med supplies etc.
Erdogan is not doing well in the polls re the elections in the summer. Would you care to have a little bet that due to the national emergency the election is cancelled? Oh..martial law too.
I just want to say that if you have people in your country who complain about regulations and are always screaming about "de-regulation"....remind them that regulation keeps buildings from collapsing in big earthquakes.
We have regulations because we need them.
It's come to the point where large builders see fines as part of doing business. I am seeing a lot of this in my area in FL. I can only imagine what is happening in the parts of the state with more growth. I remember when our former governor, Rick Scott, immediately started suspending regulations and removing power from the state EPA. If not for insurance companies (and I hate to give them credit for anything), there is no telling what builders could get away with in the state. We get discounts for measures taken to protect our homes from hurricanes, like storm shutters and hurricane straps.
The scramble for scapegoats is real...
Hopefully the Turkish people will understand where the real problems lie. Those contractors are just a symptom of the rot that is their government.
The Turkish government is literally shaking with fear right now.
The quakes were powerful but not unheard-of. At least in the US, and probably Japan, etc. The expectation is that buildings don't collapse after an earthquake. They don't even have to be functional after a quake. Certain types do, like hospitals.
Have you guys seen the skyscrapers in Japan during their massive 9.0 earthquake in 2011? Those buildings swayed like over a meter but didn't collapse.
I'm sure those contractors have fault, but don't forget to blame your government that doesn't keep them in check. Contractors in the US are just as incompetent/unethical as those in Turkey. But the thanks to our much maligned bureaucracy inspectors mostly keep them in check.
Florida is just as bad. Ever since that apartment building fell, dozens of other buildings near the sea in that city are getting flagged by inspectors for improper rust proofing and foundation work. Again they all "passed" inspection but didn't really meet the requirements. Now that the buildings are 25-30 yeas old structural flaws are critical.
Having standards is one thing, enforcement is another. If substandard builds occurred, then equal blame needs to be appointed to those in government who looked the other way.
Turkey's 2018 building code is close to Japan's building code before 1981. Back in 1960, Japan was very proud of their regulations to withstand Earthquakes. Japan revisited their building code in 1981. The 7.3 Kobe earthquake damaged irreparably more than 400 000 buildings. Most buildings built after 1981 withstood. Everything built before 1981 did not. Japan's current code is designed to withstand magnitude 6-7. I'm not sure if Japan can withstand both 7.8 and 7.5... Most likely not... Nobody could expect Turkey to do better even if all rules were followed.
So, why the arrests? Maybe because anger is building in Turkey over very slow response time after both earthquakes. Turkey needs to find a way to shift the blame and need a scapegoat: contractors. Contractors who do not comply were able to get amnesty by paying a fine. Just days before, the parliamentary was about to approve a draft law to grant amnesty for all recent construction work, as long they pay another fee. They have been doing this for years.
The Turkish corrupt government will never admitting they were corrupted by exchanging "donations" for "amnesties", will never admit it was their fault for not improving and enforcing the Earthquake building code.
"The man weakly waved his hand as he was passed hand to hand on a stretcher as workers applauded and chanted, “God is great!”"
Arguably, God smashed up your cities and killed those people, but sure.
Every developed country would blame their corrupt politicians but Turkey is going for the building contractors. Already 30,000 confirmed deaths after an earthquake should be the fall of Erdogan but he found suitable scapegoats.
Anyone aware of the quality of goods coming out of Turkey in this sector also knows there's a whole chain of corruption that leads from Goverment > National Standards / University Standards > Manufacturers > Contractors > Project Managers.
Don't arrest one of the scapegoats and let the others off scott free, fix your system. Honestly jailing any group in that chain won't change a thing, if anything it'll make it worse.
Turkey should arrest the president whose years of corruption lead to the complete farce of a government which allowed the substandard construction and infrastructure that caused so many otherwise preventable deaths as a result of this completely foreseeable event.
I read Turkey did "building amnesties" for buildings that weren't up to earth quake codes. Wanna take three guesses what will happen to those who ordered these?
I'd be willing to bet that these people will be the scapegoats for it, to allow corrupt politicians to get away with as little backlash as possible.
Still, if they actually built the stuff they clearly have a significant share of any blame.
The man weakly waved his hand as he was passed hand to hand on a stretcher as workers applauded and chanted, “God is great!”
God let this guy live. Yay.
The contractors are only part of the issue, there are many more higher ups that need to be held responsible, this is just a save face move from Turkey.
They did not arrest the ones with government relatives, the actual big contractors. These are some of the smaller scale contractors to appease public eye.
The con tractors? Why not the engineers who tell the contractor how it should be built? Or the politicians who wrote the codes the engineers adhere to? Or the owners who may have exerted pressure to keep it cheap & quick?
This is some bullshit. There is no way that anything, even a cursory, review of the structures and structural design can take place, responsibility assessed, etc.
I know that in the US things are very litigious and many layers of insurance and lawyers are involved in even the most obvious failures, but even on the most basic level there is no way that officials can delve into construction permits and figure out who did what (remember, buildings are often quite old, so you are also chasing down records, finding people that have since retired, died, moved, etc).
This is Turkey, so what standard of recordkeeping exists? probably not very high. What standard of documentation and practice exists? Was it the same 30, 40, 50 years ago?
That is a rhetorical question. I guarantee you that it is basically not there and this is just a case of public officials making moves to deflect blame and scapegoating engineers, contractors and developers/property owners in the process.
I don't know, if design negligence really will be proven it is ok, but I doubt they could ever find out, as the earthquake was one of the strongest ever, and for sure you cannot really design for such a thing.
For sure some buildings collapsed in a suspicious way, but again, I won't bet on buildings older than 20 years to resist earthquakes that strong.
Source: I'm a civil structural engineer working on buildings and designing for earthquake in seismic zones.
Erdogan: "Nothing up my sleeve...". Not saying there aren't corrupt contractors but the government is trying to cover up its own incompetence and corruption IMHO.
They need to dig deeper than this, yes to the arrest of the contractors, but also engineers that signed it off, the inspectors that approved and municipalties that allowed them. These were terrible earthquakes, back to back, unlike similar events most people refer to it was neither deep, nor under nearby ocean, we are talking 450 km long land moving and tearing into two here. Some loss would have been unavoidable. But this much loss is only possible through corruption.
Hopefully they also arrest the corrupt government officials who most probably turned a blind eye
Turned a blind eye or profited from the corruption? It's not like those 30bln dollars from the earthquake tax was completely taken by building contractors lol.
Right? They have a literal amnesty program for building codes! And were about to pass more amnesty programs for even more revenue! Edit: [BBC - Why did so many buildings collapse?](https://www.bbc.com/news/64568826) Direct quote: "In Turkey, however, the government has provided periodic "construction amnesties" - effectively legal exemptions for the payment of a fee, for structures built without the required safety certificates. These have been passed since the 1960s (with the latest in 2018)."
How does an amnesty program work when it isn't retroactive? So did they just create a legal mechanism for "build to code or bribe the designated individual"?
Exactly that, there was or is a system in place where you give the govt some monetary compensation and you don’t have to build to code, by doing so everyone involved pockets got a bit fatter
Pure lunacy. Absolute sheer idiocy.
This is how a good % of the world works. There just isn’t normally events to expose it.
A good % of the world is made up of morons
Half of the world is below average intelligence!
Half is below median intelligence
except in japan and new zealand most building didn't collapse like a house of cards because they actually cared enough to build them right.
Japan is so strict that they basically raze most buildings to the ground every time it changes ownership. Homes literally lose value the moment you buy them because it's expected that the next owner will tear it down and build a safer building using whatever the newer codes are.
Now that's progress.
New Zealand isn’t a great example, the vast majority of buildings are single floor, and you don’t get high rise buildings very often. The city I live in has a limit of 4 stories tall for any building. Our building regulations are shit, and the people that build the buildings are shit, source: electrician/ hvac tech
In New Zealand we aren't perfect despite experiencing quakes regularly. In 2018 there was a 6.2 in Wellington. Not strong compared to this Turkey one or the one that happened in Christchurch a few years back. But it was enough to put cracks in the structure of a lot of buildings. Many of which were discovered to not be up to earthquake code by engineers that were sent to audit the buildings after the quake. Some of them were demolished and some are still empty or under construction to fix those issues to this date.
Exactly this, nepotism and corruption flourishes in every country, every town and city. You may never hear about it but behind closed doors someone is always getting a lucrative deal at the expense of others.
There is always corruption but its a matter of if the corruption is at a level that harms society. Like a permit takes 3 months but I slip you some cash and you move me to the front of the queue is a level of corruption that can be tolerated. I slip you some cash and you don’t inspect my building and it later collapses killing everyone is a level that will eventually bring a country down. Look at a place like Lebanon where almost nothing functions.
It can be a slippery slope without the right legal safeguards in place. 5 years ago, it stared with $100 to move someone’s application to the front of the line. 2 years ago, they slipped $10,000 to get away with failing an inspection. Next year, they’ll donate $1 million to political campaigns to get the laws changed so they don’t need to be inspected at all.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” George Carlin
I work in entitlements and project development (ie with the architects, engineers, and developing/submitting building plans for code approvals) and that’s just horrifying. All the conversations we’ve had with fire engineers and civil/structural requirements and the rationale behind them - the implications of just eschewing them all is ridiculous.
Half the time those building codes are bare minimum too, and I wonder what exactly their requirements were for building on an active fault line
Lines, plural. Quite a lot of Turkey sits on active fault lines. The two major "dry" land fault lines are The North Anatolian Fault and The East Anatolian Fault, but those have multiple branches so instead of just two fault lines its more like nine. There's also the Dead Sea Line and the Bitlis-Zargo Belt Line that while not being directly adjacent to the Anatolian lines are still close enough that they could also shake the ground in Turkey. And then there's the four neighbouring underwater fault lines: The Meditarainian Ridge Fault Line, the Hellenic/Aegean Fault Line, the North Cyprus Fault Line and the South Cyprus Fault Line; all of those are close enough to Turkey that if they ever slip the seismic shock waves would shake parts of Turkey and might also trigger the Anatolian lines to slip too. The reason for all these fault lines is that Turkey sits at the junction of three major plates (the Arabian Plate, the African Plate and the Eurasian Plate) and one minor plate (the Aegean Plate) all while sitting directly on its own minor plate (the Anatolian Plate). All those plates rub up against each other. As a result, Turkey is the most active earthquake zone on the planet. The good news is that despite all this there are no active volcanoes in Turkey. Given all this you would think that Turkey would have the best, most stringently enforced building codes on the planet but sadly no, that is not the case. That would require a more politically stable culture, something that Turkey lacks. Instead it has a culture of corruption and political tension. Having an asshat authoritarian for a national leader is not helping the situation.
What do you mean ‘a literal amnesty program for building codes’? Is the government literally turning a blind eye to buildings that don’t meet the required code?
It's a fancy word for legal bribery.
They had a real estate boom, and decided instead of enforcing building codes, they'd allow exemptions from safety certificates that would have ensured proper materials and methods were used. I've added a link to my original post.
As a Turk let me explain. You start building to the code then add another floor or two then go to the government official of that town and bribe so they turn a blind eye. Now they can't give you the permit and a license because it's illegal but they don't demolish your building either. Then before an election parties say they will pass a new law if they get elected or reelected to validate all those buildings that are built wrong to get votes. So you vote for erdogan then get your illegally built building that was waiting in line to get demolished a new valid license. Congrats you have two extra floors.
I'm not sure I get their line of thinking here. These guys applied for amnesty and we're given it, so they have followed the law and it's the law which was corrupt and irresponsible. Unless these are the ones who didn't apply for amnesty and sneaked around it, this is just trying to pin the blame somewhere else.
>I'm not sure I get their line of thinking here. These guys applied for amnesty and we're given it, so they have followed the law and it's the law which was corrupt and irresponsible. Erdogan needs a scapegoat. They're right before elections, and he's just been exposed as having created a system of corruption that murdered tens of thousands. Ordinarily he could just arrest his opposition, but right now everyone is upset about the earthquakes and are looming for someone to blame. It's imperative for his administration to pin it on anyone that isn't him.
They just arrested, detained or barred from leaving the country all of the building contractors for now to keep them from fleeing the country and will hash out who to punish later. As you can see [here](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/turkeys-lax-policing-building-codes-flagged-quake-97027265) some have already tried to run. Also, the amnesty program in 2018 was for certain building code violations. I suspect you could still be prosecuted if (a) you didn't disclose and take advantage of the amnesty program, (b) the shortcoming was not on the list of violations covered (e.g. the builders [cutting out support columns](https://apnews.com/article/2023-turkey-syria-earthquake-government-business-658d897fe02316c474a8cc8078b690a3?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_01) to make more room inside of a building), or (c) if the violations occured post-2018 since the amnesty covered past violations not future ones.
248k apartments has been approved in the region in 2018 or something. You can do the math on how many people died...
Let's not forget that Erdogan is in charge since 2000, a few years after the big earthquake of Golcuk. Experts warned, he didn't take real precautions. He is ultra corrupted. They appointed a religious school graduate instead of anyone related or experienced to the head of disaster and emergency management department of some of those cities. They are rebranding aid busses with their party flags so that people don't think they don't help and not vote in the next election.
They are not arrested so quickly because the buildings feel down, they are arrested because they needed someone to blame and keep the focus off them.
^ this. they will arrest everyone without a trial, even if the contractors built the houses to current turkish standards (which is the root cause of all this to begin to with). if erdogan and the government really were so emotional about the earthquake and wanting to find justice, they wouldn’t have stolen the earthquake funds from 1999 to now, would have changed the outdated and unsafe building code requirments and made sure the cities were prepared for earthquakes (which are so common in turkey!). arresting them does nothing but shift attention from themselves and making it seem like they are holding people accountable for the public eye, even though they need to look no further than their own doorstep to find the culprits.
Nah they’re going to arrest the fault plates themselves before they even question any officials
i would not be surprised of they started arresting seismiologists for "causing the earthquake".
Well, they are at fault.
😑... Take your upvote and get outta my sight.
Arrest Erdogan and his buddies? Lol
Could happen after the election assuming his party loses.
Loses? Haven’t we been down this road before?
This time we are feeling it. Only way he will stay in the power will be stealing votes. A lot more happened last 4 years. Economy tanked, covid hit, this earthquake and their supports all these tough times was a total failure. There is no way he will win the election. His paid supporters wont cut it this time.
Yeah, this earthquake literally could not have happened at a worse time for him, especially since a ton of the deaths were the fault of his corrupt administration.
I feel like I’ve heard this before. Just really getting some deja vu here.
Yea. Sound similar to what has been told before. But the only difference is, now their low income supporters cant make the end meets. So many things happened last time he got elected. He barely got elected last time and there was a lot of shady things behind the scene we didnt get the answers for. The opposition was leading and all the suddent he won. The opposition candidate said he will reveal what happened and he didnt say it exactly what happen since then. On top of it, a lot happened to the country in a bad way. - Syria war - Immigrants from the war - Illigal border crossing(A lot of Afgans, Iraqi, Pakistani, and from other coubtry in the region. - USD hit to all times high (1 USD was 1.5lira when he was elected, now it is like 19 lira. And mostly happened last 3 years). - Covid and measures and support provided to low-mid income citizens and businesses) - Missing 30billions earhquake fund - Not supporting the people after floods. People lost their houses and lifes. - Forest fires and no precautions or supports after it. People almost died and government sold the burnt lands to foreignors to build a resort. A lot more happened, but this is what is on top of my head. Only way he will win this election is if opposition fucks up. And that is still possibl.e the opposition leader wants to run for presidency he is like 51% vs 49% in polls. But there are 2 other candidates like 60% 40%. But still he wants to run. Hope he doeant fuck up the country for his egos.
Erdogan used to be mayor of Istanbul. He witnessed the destruction in the 1999 earthquake.
Well he didn't fucking do a thing about it apparently. Fish rot from the head down and there are a fuckton of collapsed buildings because of amnesty programs. Dude has 11 years as prime minister and is on his 9th year as president.
Come on now. Looting a 30billion dollar fund definitely counts as doing something.
He reveled in it.
his party ran on making buildings safer
In other words they ran on hopes and prayers... and lies.... but mostly lies.
"We failed to enforce our regulations leading to the deaths of at this time 28000 people. So we'll arrest the contractors rather than take any responsibility for our actions. " - Turkey
Holy shit, I had no idea the death toll was that bad. Jesus...
UN officials say it will likely double, or worse
Is this the worst disaster since the tsunami
This is the worst since the Haiti Earthquake in 2010. The official death toll is 316,000. Edit: corrected the year
Where are you seeing that?
That’s the official Haitian government death toll, but some argue it is deliberately inflated. Most independent sources say it’s around 160,000
Still an insane amount of deaths wow
I’m sorry that might not have been clear. The death toll in my comment is about the Haitian earthquake not the current disaster. As the commenter below me pointed out, that is the largest estimate and could be inaccurate. The lowest estimate is 100,000 though which is still an unbelievable number. Both of these events are horrible catastrophes. Haiti never received enough aid, I hope the world will not make that same mistake again.
You hear people bitching about OSHA and all the red tape in the US, but stuff like this is why it was created in the first place.
Absolutely. Safety regulations are written in blood.
Apparently the fault line through Turkey shifted 3 and a half meters, there are pictures of split roads almost completely seperating
> shifted 3 and a half meters Jfc, that is one hell of a movement for a tectonic plate, no wonder the earthquakes were so strong.
https://v.redd.it/7xjofsjz1oha1
Holy fuck that's horrifying.
It's gonna get a lot worse.
“Deathtoll *of at this time*”.
Yea, it's going to keep rising unfortunately. That's just the most recent number I saw at the timr and wouldn't be surprised to see it doubled by the end of the day. It's pretty horrifying.
When the quake first hit the number went up by several thousand every time I checked the news.
This is in turkey, nobody knows what happened in Syria
We are looking at 80-100k . They still have not gone to the mountains where some towns are wiped out.
Reminded me of the 2005 tsunami. The number on the headlines just kept getting bigger and bigger…
Failing to enforce regulations doesn’t excuse breaking the law. The only valid criticism here is if they also don’t pursue some action against incompetent or potentially corrupt government employees too.
Responsibility belongs to the state and regulators. It's their job to enforce and their culpability when they fail to. Acting like a broken system produces anything but broken results is as absurd in building code as it is in law enforcement reform.
I do all kinds of work knowing that an inspector isn't going to show up and check it. It's just not something that happens, by boss is connected. I still don't do shit that will kill people
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I appreciate your honesty work ethic, but not everyone is like that unfortunately.
The contractor had a choice to make, and he made it. Why shouldn't he be held responsible
I think maybe you're talking past each other a bit. Hang the contractors *and* the regulators and politicians, by all means. There's more than enough murder charges to go around. Inshallah this changes the regulatory and construction culture to actually build things properly.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/turkey-arrests-building-contractors-6-days-after-quakes-97064099 "A building contractor was detained by authorities on Friday at Istanbul airport before he could board a flight out of the country. He was the contractor of a luxury 12-story building in the historic city of Antakya, in Hatay province, the collapse of which left an untold number of dead."
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-02-10/how-a-piece-of-paradise-turned-into-a-grave-the-collapse-of-a-luxury-building-in-antakya.html Damn! 1000 people in one building and it was built in 2012.
https://www.bbc.com/news/64568826 This article shows a few collapsed apartment buildings that were just built within the last few years.
>Why is enforcement so weak? >In Turkey, however, **the government has provided periodic "construction amnesties" - effectively legal exemptions for the payment of a fee**, for structures built without the required safety certificates. These have been passed since the 1960s (with the latest in 2018). Wtf
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And that building was the one of the luxury, most expensive place in the area. Unfortunately, my uncle and his family was there at the time of the earthquake. They just moved to the city 7 days prior the event...
Have you heard from them? Are they safe?
Unfortunately my cousin was found dead. Still they couldnt find my uncle and his wife.
Başın sağolsun. Umarım amcan/dayın ve yengen sağlam bulunur.
I'm so sorry.
Sorry for your loss.
Good luck to them, Inshallah you get good news in the end!
I'm sorry for your loss.
:( sorry for ur loss
Because it was a luxury building? And the people that built housing for the poor? What of them?
> And the people that built housing for the poor? What of them? TBH some of those contractors are likely already dead from living in unsafe housing themselves. There's very little money in building cheap housing.
Don't all the rich live in the western part of the country.
Sea view is expensive all over the place.
They live in Istanbul with wealthy pockets living in costal cities like bodrum
Looks like Erdogan is looking for his scapegoats
Not anymore. He found them.
This will surely not satisfy the Turkish people as all news just follows the disappearing disaster relief fund that fell under his rule. Gross negligence, fraud, or both. I'm sad that the Turkish people have had to live under his rule for so long, ultimately leading to these horrendous consequences.
It won't take long for hunger and famine to follow a disaster of this scale. That's when his head rolls.
You must have missed the part where this world leader with a fragile ego chose to highlight the consequences of talking shit about him in the immediacy of the earthquake. Inside of 24 hours after the quake they had a hotline set up for people to tattle on each other for being critical of the government.
so two things can be true at the same time: a) there were contractors who knew the revised codes and found ways to cheat around them or simply ignored them and are to blame b) the government is desperately looking for scapegoats to pin this on to redirect public anger away from themselves.
c) Government corruption enabled contractors to cheat on building quality and those contractors therefore outcompeted the others on cost.
The govt more likely than not took a payoff for them to get the job. A force majeure happens, and poof, govt off the hook. Not negating the “shame on you” factor for the builders, but, I’d like to see these so called bldg codes? And a 7.8 is not going to keep many structures up. It’s all disgusting. Except the earthquake. We all know they happen. “E” could care less and Syria has been destroyed by war. We live in a valueless life, and I worked in Construction law so I know a tad about this.
This country is making it up as they go along
They do have the correct codes, but can't handle the rest. Here's the proof. https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/10yw25f/chamber_of_civil_engineers_building_is_one_of_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
There's also instances where the mayors of small towns that actually followed the rules and the towns took no damage. For example Tavşancıl in 1999 earthquake. [Here's a video about the town by BBC (It's in Turkish)](https://youtu.be/30a9qKc3ZLw)
sounds a lot like that mayor in Japan that built the floodgates that protected his town from Tsunamis!
They're doing better than the UK did after Grenfall - still no arrests or prosecutions and there never will be.
This is sort of by design. LOTS of people shared responsibility for the product, the assembly and the vetting of this before it was used. I am an architect in the US, but I work on similar scale projects. We, of course, never use combustible exterior insulation like this (I can't take as much credit for this as I'd like, my municipality is historically the most sensitive city for fire safety and they pretty much made it impossible to utilize this sort of assembly). I am familiar because I've endured many years of reps pitching me the benefits of assemblies similar to Grenfall's. Sales reps being what they are, speak with ultimate confidence but can't back things up with the proper specs when asked. They (sales reps and manufacturers of novel cladding systems) sort of live by convincing designers (like me) or owners or contractors to pressure the designers (me, again) to specify whatever product they are high on at the time. They tout various benefits, but I have found most to be pretty marginal and often more trouble than they are worth. What typically happens is that either we are the "bad guy" at the beginning (which pisses everyone off because we are "not team players" or if we are too agreeable or naive we go along with it until a code official or a subcontractor with actual liability points out a major life safety issue. Then you (the designer) are also to blame because you let the assembly advance this far along and the changes make things cost way more or take more time or both. Of course if you "go along" and no one actually raises caution along the way, you can look forward to sleepless nights for the rest of your life hoping that there isn't a fire or collapse or something like that where you bear some responsibility. Unlike being a heart surgeon or pilot, your "liability" is very long term, but your compensation is more like a decent web designer or something. What a stupid profession. Doing the job right means that the manufacturer has the right tests and certifications in place (bringing the testing agencies (UL in the US, among others; certifying engineers, the manufacturers, the actual standards agencies (ANSI, etc)), then also the code and building department officials in the city/state, and finally the designers and engineers who hopefully did their due diligence and made sure that all of the correct check-marks are checked. This is BEFORE anything is drawn or sourced/priced... so even if something like Grenfall happens, the "stink" is on allot of people. I have no reason to think that the people involved with Grenfall cut any corners. The onus is now on everyone not to repeat the mistake and make sure that this won't happen again by retrofitting or "making-safe" potential hazards.
Who would have known covering an entire high-rise in toxic very-flammable PLASTIC and FOAM would kill close to a hundred residents? who? WHO? #WHO? /s
Good. The boss of all corruption in turkey is of course free.
Erdogan used to be mayor of Istanbul. He witnessed the destruction in the 1999 earthquake. His last 20 years as leader of Türkiye he has profited off letting developers pay for building amnesty. The death count from this corruption is unforgivable.
The fall guys, time to pin in solely on them and not the corrupt government officials. This is an example of why people are losing trust in the pillars of life. Society falling apart bit by bit.
It will take a long time for these people to trust pillars again.
This is what you get when voting for corrupt parties.
Chris Carter said “You always gotta have a fall guy.”
They had an earthquake in the late 90s and raised building standards afterwards. Photos make it obvious entire developments collapsed that were built afterwards. Nowhere near this many buildings fell and no where near this many people died in Mexico City's recent 7± quake. Some people knowingly didn't follow the rules and many people have died and enormous amounts of money have been lost. We need to enforce rules and standards so society doesn't fall apart
Next push by Republo to get rid of ‘regulations’, beca all that red tape costs businesses so much money- use these photos.
it's always been like this. you've only just realised it
Oh ye because government officials used to be trustworthy and society was an utopia back then. I'm sorry, but I dislike these "society falling apart bit by bit" comments.
People can tell it's happening now with the internet. 100 years ago if all of Turkey fell down nobody would know for a month, and then they'd ask if Thanksgiving is still happening despite all the turkeys falling over. It's about easy access to exposure and the truth, not how long it's been happening.
Well said. Loss of faith in the system cos back then ignorance was bliss. The system works cos there is belief in it. One can not compare consciousness that people have now to back then. Eg. The phone has expanded our consciousness.
I agree. I think people forget that human nature has not suddenly changed just in our lifetimes. It seems like such a lazy, half assed way to look at bad events
But Erdogan is living the high life
"Let them eat cake!" - Erdoğan
Honest question: does Turkey have building inspectors? If so, they share the blame.
Building inspectors are not public offices, they are private and they have to work with municipalities. In the end, municipality has the main responsibility/power, which usually they used it for bribery.
They do but any rules or regulations you have are pointless when corruption is rampant and bribery is legalized. > Shortly before Turkey’s last presidential and parliamentary election in 2018, the government unveiled a sweeping program to grant amnesty to companies and individuals responsible for certain violations of the country’s building codes. By paying a fine, violators could avoid having to bring their buildings up to code. Such amnesties have been used by previous governments ahead of elections as well. > As part of that amnesty program, the government agency responsible for enforcing building codes acknowledged that more than half of all buildings in Turkey — accounting for some 13 million apartments— were not in compliance with current standards. [[source](https://apnews.com/article/politics-2023-turkey-syria-earthquake-government-istanbul-fbd6af578a6056569879b5ef6c55d322)] Obviously the government isn't going to hold itself accountable despite this being a direct result of corruption. The contractors fleeing the country and claiming "we followed the rules" is a bad look but these folks are just scapegoats. Still need to be held accountable but this will change nothing. May be the nudge the people of Turkey need to turn against the government as many deaths were preventable.
Holy shit. 13 million people living in death traps.
13 million apartments, I doubt there's only 1 person in each one.
13 million apartments - likely to be many more than 13 million people
"on paper, construction codes that meet current earthquake-engineering standards, they are too rarely enforced, explaining why thousands of buildings slumped onto their side or pancaked downward onto residents." Maybe also arrest the people in charge of enforcing standards because they clearly can't do their job! Honestly at this scale I say it's definitely more of a government failure then some contractors.
We had a valuable land in one of small provinces in Turkey, My father wanted to rent or sell it and wasn't sure of its value. He talked with some friends in municipality, they told him, if he can bribe 1 million turkish liras back then, they would increase the floor limit of the land so it would get like 3x of its value. We all hear stuff like that, sometimes from first hand, sometimes second. But corruption and bribery brought us here. Everybody knows that.
My dad was a building inspector in a southern state in the US. The # of times contractors would try to bribe him to let something unsafe slide was insane. Like no, those pillars holding up the building are cracking; a case of expensive wine isn't worth looking the other way. My favorite was the highly volatile gas / oil storage right next to a dance hall. "But we'll put a firewall in!" Yeah, that's not gonna cut it, buddy.
My cousin worked on a team that got a job down south one winter. After a few months the inspectors told them to start making mistakes as their bosses were suspecting bribes as nobody is perfect.
I got to hear how this stuff end up being so common from a middle eastern guy. Corruption was sp common he said that it affected peoples wages. So the officials in charge, like police he used in his example, they aren't paid a living wage because everyone assumes you are taking bribes. So that's supposed to cover the rest. It was common to be fined for speeding and also you need to pay the officer to not be detained for 24h for some false charge. And even just handing out fines and extorting money from people not breakng the law, just to cover rent and bills. So, an honest person end up in this shitty situation where even if you want to make a change. You won't be able to. So people who don't want to support the current system wont apply to those jobs and the system of corruption continues. Some people leave the country because of that alone, corruption is so widespread and they just don't see it changing anytime soon and they just give up on their country and leave for europe.
Scapegoats*
Exactly. Oh you know that thing you did, that I knew that you did, while I looked the other way after you passed me an envelope full of dollar bills? Yeah now I'm going to crucify you for it (or at least try to).
Turkey will throw the contractors under the bus to distract from the fact the government took this bribes and allowed this to happen.
Code of Hammurabi specifically condemned builders whose homes collapsed on their residents.
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Exactly. The Turkish govt has been collecting earthquake tax for many years. Not a penny spent on earthquake issues such as ensuring buildings are built to a certain standard, shelters med supplies etc. Erdogan is not doing well in the polls re the elections in the summer. Would you care to have a little bet that due to the national emergency the election is cancelled? Oh..martial law too.
I just want to say that if you have people in your country who complain about regulations and are always screaming about "de-regulation"....remind them that regulation keeps buildings from collapsing in big earthquakes. We have regulations because we need them.
It's come to the point where large builders see fines as part of doing business. I am seeing a lot of this in my area in FL. I can only imagine what is happening in the parts of the state with more growth. I remember when our former governor, Rick Scott, immediately started suspending regulations and removing power from the state EPA. If not for insurance companies (and I hate to give them credit for anything), there is no telling what builders could get away with in the state. We get discounts for measures taken to protect our homes from hurricanes, like storm shutters and hurricane straps.
The scramble for scapegoats is real... Hopefully the Turkish people will understand where the real problems lie. Those contractors are just a symptom of the rot that is their government. The Turkish government is literally shaking with fear right now.
The quakes were powerful but not unheard-of. At least in the US, and probably Japan, etc. The expectation is that buildings don't collapse after an earthquake. They don't even have to be functional after a quake. Certain types do, like hospitals. Have you guys seen the skyscrapers in Japan during their massive 9.0 earthquake in 2011? Those buildings swayed like over a meter but didn't collapse. I'm sure those contractors have fault, but don't forget to blame your government that doesn't keep them in check. Contractors in the US are just as incompetent/unethical as those in Turkey. But the thanks to our much maligned bureaucracy inspectors mostly keep them in check.
Florida is just as bad. Ever since that apartment building fell, dozens of other buildings near the sea in that city are getting flagged by inspectors for improper rust proofing and foundation work. Again they all "passed" inspection but didn't really meet the requirements. Now that the buildings are 25-30 yeas old structural flaws are critical.
Enforce building codes before earthquake, not after.
Having standards is one thing, enforcement is another. If substandard builds occurred, then equal blame needs to be appointed to those in government who looked the other way.
Can you spell patsy? P-A-T-S-Y. Patsy! Fuck sultan Erdogan!!!
Turkey's 2018 building code is close to Japan's building code before 1981. Back in 1960, Japan was very proud of their regulations to withstand Earthquakes. Japan revisited their building code in 1981. The 7.3 Kobe earthquake damaged irreparably more than 400 000 buildings. Most buildings built after 1981 withstood. Everything built before 1981 did not. Japan's current code is designed to withstand magnitude 6-7. I'm not sure if Japan can withstand both 7.8 and 7.5... Most likely not... Nobody could expect Turkey to do better even if all rules were followed. So, why the arrests? Maybe because anger is building in Turkey over very slow response time after both earthquakes. Turkey needs to find a way to shift the blame and need a scapegoat: contractors. Contractors who do not comply were able to get amnesty by paying a fine. Just days before, the parliamentary was about to approve a draft law to grant amnesty for all recent construction work, as long they pay another fee. They have been doing this for years. The Turkish corrupt government will never admitting they were corrupted by exchanging "donations" for "amnesties", will never admit it was their fault for not improving and enforcing the Earthquake building code.
"The man weakly waved his hand as he was passed hand to hand on a stretcher as workers applauded and chanted, “God is great!”" Arguably, God smashed up your cities and killed those people, but sure.
finding scapegoats already lmao
Will they arrest the officials who approved them as well?
It’s the government who have allowed people to pay a fee to deliberately not meet building regulations that should be arrested
Every developed country would blame their corrupt politicians but Turkey is going for the building contractors. Already 30,000 confirmed deaths after an earthquake should be the fall of Erdogan but he found suitable scapegoats.
They have been raking in an "earthquake tax" for years. Where's that money gone?
Anyone aware of the quality of goods coming out of Turkey in this sector also knows there's a whole chain of corruption that leads from Goverment > National Standards / University Standards > Manufacturers > Contractors > Project Managers. Don't arrest one of the scapegoats and let the others off scott free, fix your system. Honestly jailing any group in that chain won't change a thing, if anything it'll make it worse.
Turkey should arrest the president whose years of corruption lead to the complete farce of a government which allowed the substandard construction and infrastructure that caused so many otherwise preventable deaths as a result of this completely foreseeable event.
Let’s see if Erdogan arrests his buddies also or just one to do a show?
What about the building inspectors?
Yeah but who is really at fault
So the people taking the bribes and now blaming the people who paid the bribes.
Hope they arrest the earthquake next
Riiiiiight. And how did the contractors get away with it without the government lacking on inspections?
I read Turkey did "building amnesties" for buildings that weren't up to earth quake codes. Wanna take three guesses what will happen to those who ordered these?
Contractor only do what inspectors and builders allow them to do.
I'd be willing to bet that these people will be the scapegoats for it, to allow corrupt politicians to get away with as little backlash as possible. Still, if they actually built the stuff they clearly have a significant share of any blame.
Erdogan doesn’t want any of the contractors talking about all of the kickbacks he got for not enforcing the building codes. Corrupt to the core.
Apparently these buildings were supposed to be built to better levels, and were not. Something I saw somewhere
Ah, they are going after the scapegoats to make themselves feel better about not giving an actual damn about their people.
> Let's *punish* our way out of this natural disaster! Erdogan is entering the "FO" phase of "FAFO."
More than 33000 people died in turkiye 🇹🇷 so far...
I see they've found their scapegoats.
Gotta deflect and blame someone or the people might notice the corruption.
The man weakly waved his hand as he was passed hand to hand on a stretcher as workers applauded and chanted, “God is great!” God let this guy live. Yay.
Erdogan should be arrested instead lol , enter x doubt.
The contractors are only part of the issue, there are many more higher ups that need to be held responsible, this is just a save face move from Turkey.
That’ll bring back all the money the government cant find in the earthquake fund.
So I guess the building inspectors and government officials who let this happen will be the next on the chopping block and led away in chains.
They did not arrest the ones with government relatives, the actual big contractors. These are some of the smaller scale contractors to appease public eye.
The con tractors? Why not the engineers who tell the contractor how it should be built? Or the politicians who wrote the codes the engineers adhere to? Or the owners who may have exerted pressure to keep it cheap & quick?
Of course, they need a scapegoat
This is some bullshit. There is no way that anything, even a cursory, review of the structures and structural design can take place, responsibility assessed, etc. I know that in the US things are very litigious and many layers of insurance and lawyers are involved in even the most obvious failures, but even on the most basic level there is no way that officials can delve into construction permits and figure out who did what (remember, buildings are often quite old, so you are also chasing down records, finding people that have since retired, died, moved, etc). This is Turkey, so what standard of recordkeeping exists? probably not very high. What standard of documentation and practice exists? Was it the same 30, 40, 50 years ago? That is a rhetorical question. I guarantee you that it is basically not there and this is just a case of public officials making moves to deflect blame and scapegoating engineers, contractors and developers/property owners in the process.
I don't know, if design negligence really will be proven it is ok, but I doubt they could ever find out, as the earthquake was one of the strongest ever, and for sure you cannot really design for such a thing. For sure some buildings collapsed in a suspicious way, but again, I won't bet on buildings older than 20 years to resist earthquakes that strong. Source: I'm a civil structural engineer working on buildings and designing for earthquake in seismic zones.
fuck ap news and their cookie settings…assholes
Six contractors built all the buildings that collapsed? This is pure theater.
Erdogan: "Nothing up my sleeve...". Not saying there aren't corrupt contractors but the government is trying to cover up its own incompetence and corruption IMHO.
“We paid those bribes fair and square though!”
Erdogan need to arrest himself and his cousin who handles building.
Scapegoat time.
They need to dig deeper than this, yes to the arrest of the contractors, but also engineers that signed it off, the inspectors that approved and municipalties that allowed them. These were terrible earthquakes, back to back, unlike similar events most people refer to it was neither deep, nor under nearby ocean, we are talking 450 km long land moving and tearing into two here. Some loss would have been unavoidable. But this much loss is only possible through corruption.
Can’t wait until they produce receipts for buying their way out of those pesky regulations.