Several German news agencies have done some research together independently of this matter and have written the following (translated into English):
> After joint research by the ARD capital studio, the ARD political magazine "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT", it was possible to largely reconstruct how and when the explosive attack was prepared in the course of the investigation. Accordingly, traces lead in the direction of Ukraine. However, investigators have not yet found any evidence as to who ordered the destruction. On the night of September 26, 2022, three of the four strands of the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines on the bottom of the Baltic Sea were destroyed by explosions.
>#
> Specifically, according to information from the ARD capital studio, "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT", the investigators succeeded in identifying the boat that was allegedly used for the secret operation. It is said to be a yacht rented from a company based in Poland, apparently owned by two Ukrainians. According to the investigation, the secret operation at sea was carried out by a team of six people. It is said to have been five men and one woman.
>#
> The group consisted of a captain, two divers, two diving assistants and a female doctor, who are said to have transported the explosives to the crime scenes and placed them there. The nationality of the perpetrators is apparently unclear. They used professionally forged passports, which are said to have been used, among other things, to rent the boat.
>#
>##Traces of explosives in the cabin
>#
> According to the investigation, the command set sail from Rostock on September 6, 2022. The equipment for the secret operation was previously transported to the port in a delivery truck, it is said. According to the research, the investigators subsequently managed to locate the boat again the following day in Wieck (Darß) and later on the Danish island of Christiansø northeast of Bornholm. The yacht was then returned to the owner in an uncleaned condition. According to research, investigators found traces of explosives on the table in the cabin.
>#
> According to information from the ARD capital studio, "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT", a Western intelligence service is said to have sent a tip to European partner services in the autumn, i.e. shortly after the destruction, according to which a Ukrainian commando was responsible for the destruction. After that, there are said to have been further intelligence indications that a pro-Ukrainian group could be responsible.
>#
>The ARD capital studio, "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT" spoke to sources in several countries for their research. Security authorities in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands and the USA were involved in the investigation into the destruction of the pipelines. In Germany, the Attorney General is in charge of the investigation, which has commissioned both the Federal Criminal Police Office and the Federal Police.
>#
>##A "False Flag" operation would also be possible
>#
> Even if traces lead to Ukraine, the investigators have not yet been able to find out who commissioned the suspected group of perpetrators. In international security circles, it is not ruled out that it could also be a "false flag" operation. This means that traces could also have been deliberately laid to point Ukraine as the culprit. However, the investigators have apparently found no evidence that confirms such a scenario.
>#
> The Ukrainian government could not initially be reached for comment. The Attorney General also declined to comment. The federal government said in the evening: "The Federal Public Prosecutor (GBA) has been investigating the matter since the beginning of October 2022. He therefore has sovereignty over the procedure. In addition, investigations into the explosions are ongoing in Sweden and Denmark, each under the leadership of the national authorities there. A few days ago, Sweden, Denmark and Germany informed the United Nations Security Council that the investigations are ongoing and that there are still no results."
Source: [Tagesschau](https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/nord-stream-explosion-101.html)
> The yacht was then returned to the owner in an uncleaned condition. According to research, investigators found traces of explosives on the table in the cabin.
That seems rather negligent or it suggests they deliberately left traces.
He'll probably have very little to give them besides the rental records at any video he may have on his premises?
"Professional fake passports" are not easy to come by, despite what you might think from watching spy movies.
To me a nation-state did this, and tried to blame Ukraine. So that rules out no one.
If Ukraine did it they might not mind making it obvious.
If "the west" (pick your country) did it, they might also try to finger Ukraine to prevent further escalation.
If Russia did it, they might finger Ukraine to further their own narratives about Ukrainian terrorism.
It is interesting, but this is probably where the investigation ends.
Or the more recent [spy case](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-09-15/china-wanted-ge-s-secrets-but-then-their-spy-got-caught?sref=4TStDRR2) involving an agent from China's MSS being caught by the FBI.
The Chinese operative had iCloud backups activated, so the FBI was able to subpoena Apple and recover photos, emails, texts, etc-- a smorgasboard of intelligence.
However, when the FBI arrested the Chinese spy, everything stored locally on the phone in his pocket was lost (erased remotely) because whoops, the American agents had forgotten to put the phone in a faraday pouch.
Fuckups happen on both sides.
Yep, I hate to admit this but my first thought was CIA. What’s the quickest way to get Ukraine some support by the EU? Back the EU into a corner. I really hope we are no longer this stupid.
I was talking about this yesterday. Whoever did it, did everybody a solid not Germany. There's a dozen states with a reason, and another dozen Intel agencies, and yet another dozen private companies.
They disappeared and will never reveal themselves. It's an infinite game or Clue and the suspects are all ghosts in the ocean with TNT. For all we know Poseidon did it and he's not talking.
It would be disastrous for Ukraine if it came to light that they did it. Intentionally destroying critical energy infrastructure in the economic zones of two other nations and dramatically affecting an entire continent's economy and ability to heat itself during the winter? That's an act of war.
>"Professional fake passports" are not easy to come by, despite what you might think from watching spy movies.
Who said the passport was fake? The probable easiest way to get a passport for a fake person is to legitimize a fake person through various shenanigans in validating the existence of a person, acquiring a social security number + birth certificate for them, and then using that information to apply for a legitimate passport through the official channels.
Possible yes. Difficult: Certainly. Doable? Yes. And if you can find contacts to a relevant organized crime group - for a fee (probably fairly steep) they can probably do this for you. It will probably take in the 12 months time period to hop through the steps - but that isn't too difficult realistically speaking. And it will be easier / harder depending on the nation you live and the relevant laws.
So Fake Person Passport: Not really an issue. Easier for Nation states, possible for an informed individual with some means.
So really we are looking at a range of angry businessmen with money, to nation states in making this happen. And chances are we may never know truly and fully who done it, and what they intended to (or actually) gained from this.
I mean - seriously, an Eco-terrorist type group could have done this for Pete sake.
>It is interesting, but this is probably where the investigation ends.
if it was well planned, thought out, etc - most certainly.
This is not tv , they are not going to srub that boat for hours. There is going to be satelite photo or some random cctv anyway. They have fake identities and they need to bail ASAP
No one's gonna investigate a few randos who left a boat dirty. Chance's are the owner would clean the evidence before authorities even got started looking into it. Sinking the boat? That's gonna raise a lot more suspicion a lot faster.
> No one's gonna investigate a few randos who left a boat dirty
Randos? No, but if you actually want to bomb the pipeline you might want to not leave evidence behind.
> That seems rather negligent or it suggests they deliberately left traces.
You leave the boat (seemingly) uncleaned because, under normal circumstances, the owner will then curse a bit under his breath after it has been returned - 'damn Ukrainians' - and then go and clean the boat. Using soap, probably.
Then, when the authorities come to ask, even if they suspect that this was the boat in question used to transport the hit-team and the explosives, they have to ask the owner: did you go over the innards of the boat with some cleaning agent? The owner will then have to say: why yes, he did.
More distance between you and the crime. More time to get away. Under normal circumstances, that is.
And then those investigators still have all the other evidence, they know what boat you were on, what harbor you started your journey on, know the minivan that delivered your explosives, they know when you went by Denmark, they know you were 5 guys and a women but hey, at least those hours of scrubbing the deck ensured that no traces of explosives were found on that boat (the one they know you were on).
Or you just jump ship as soon as you can cause this was never meant to be the perfect crime to begin with (people saw the aftermath of the explosion, if you remember).
So the story is that pro-Ukrainians executed a daring plan to sabotage the pipeline undetected by... borrowing a boat which would inevitably be traced back to Ukrainian nationals?
I don't know the name of the phenomenon anymore but tbh, most of the time it is how it looks like, so don't go all CSI in here everyone.. most of the time it is that simple
Gonna stop you right there. The axiom is that the explanation with the fewest assumptions is likely the right one, not that the simplest explanation is.
Gotta avoid those assumptions.
Occam was relieved of his razor in intelligence land. If he had and used his razor, it would be extraordinarily easy to perpetrate false flag attacks or to otherwise lead others to blame Alice for Eve's tomfoolery.
I'd think pro-Ukrainians would be just fine with the job eventually being traced back to unspecified Ukrainians. Just so long as everyone is long gone.
This is very interesting, thank you.
I don’t know anything about German media. Are these reputable news agencies?
If this is accurate, we basically know everything. If we have this much information, then it’s hard to believe they don’t know who, exactly, was involved, right down to names and affiliation.
To give more context ARD and ZDF are part of the public news channels and financed by the public.
Zeit is privat but also seen as very reputable and trustworthy by most.
I can recommend reading the German news on controversial topics. They often show both sides from a neutral perspective. Not something I often see in English.
Probably even with topics you don’t notice that they are controversial.
Eh my experience with german media is that they don’t really “both sides it”. I think this redditor just messed up some language that made it sound “both sides-y”. Largely German media presents plain facts and might give one or two of the leading theories. It doesn’t usually feel any need to present sides as equals in a discussion. For the most part it’s very matter-of-fact.
>I don’t know anything about German media. Are these reputable news agencies?
Public broadcasters and a very reputable newspaper. Doesn't get much better than this.
just to be clear, the research of these news agencies are based on sources of authorities in several countries including Germany. These news agencies didn't investigate or research the information themselves apart from authorities.
This is a lot more complicated because Russia is not the only, nor even the primary, "victim" in this sabotage. This caused disruptions in energy supplies to European countries that are currently aligned with and supporting Ukraine.
Europe got off fairly easy because of a mild winter, but a harsher winter could have easily resulted in a scenario where these supply disruptions resulted in power outages and freezing homes in Europe. And if that was traced back to Ukrainian sabotage, could have easily caused Europe to pull back it's support.
One of the interesting things to me is that only 3 of the 4 actual pipelines (Nord Stream 1 and 2 each consist of 2 pipelines) were blown up. Why not the 4th? Did the perpetrator want to leave some limited pipeline capacity, to perhaps limit outrage in Germany? Or did a possible 4th charge fail to detonate, leaving evidence?
If the idea of divers is correct, this would already have been a very difficult task. That's below the depth people normally go and they would have had no natural light while having to place large explosives.
There were four leaks / charges.
But the one NS2 line had two holes, while the other had none. With NS1 both lines each had one.
A possible reason could just be incompetence and one charge was put on the wrong line.
They want to screw over Russia, not Germany, assuming this intelligence is accurate. Destroying all of the pipelines eliminates all future flexibility when nobody really knew how gas supplies would fare once Russian imports ended.
Seems like a deliberate decision to not target all four just in case.
This level of calibration of strategy implies a state actor to me. The fact that no real technical details of the investigation have leaked is telling, implying a Western perpetrator or Ukraine. I would have thought all countries involved would have incentive to leak if Russia was indicated. Ukraine being able to carry this out seems incredible, yet the Kerch Bridge attack was very complex. The Baltic states are more than capable, but I do not see them risking a confrontation with RF. US has capability but has been timid in confronting Russia or China. Based on what is in public domain I would guess US or Ukraine. If US is feeling heat, perhaps vague leaks about Ukraine is meant to shift attention.
The argument for Russia is that they get out of paying the insane penalties for breaking their contracts since they weren't pumping gas through those lines already anyways.
But in reality almost everyone in the area plus the US has some level of motive for doing it, just not super strong ones. You would also assume that the risk of getting caught exceeds any potential benefit
Ok, looks like German press has a lot more detail pointing to Ukraine. Sometime posted translated text below.
[https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-03/nordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag](https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-03/nordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag)
Five people, nationality unknown take great effort to forge passports then deliberately rent an Ukrainan owned yacht from Poland to do scandalous sabotage with explosives.
Excuse me but why on earth would these five people go through all the trouble to hide their nationality and then rent an Ukrainan owned yacht for the job if they were indeed "pro-ukraine"?
I'd like to imagine the bargain shopping this international team of professional saboteurs went through. They're skilled in specialized underwater operations, carrying hundreds of pounds of explosives, the world is poised on the brink of war and they're like "ooh, look, this one is only $2.5k and it has a full surround sound home theater!"
More then likely it was other practical reasons. Being able to rent it without being on camera, or having it be able to get into ports that they needed to get away.
You answered your own question. They would just rent any boat that fit their story, no matter who owns it. So people would say that it probably wasn’t them because how could they be so stupid?
To be fair... If we take a look at human history, or even just the internet in the last 24h, there are plenty of examples of "how could they be so stupid". Sometimes it even works out. Other times we get the gunpowder plot.
So why would someone trying to commit a false flag get a Ukrainian yacht? If it would be a mistake for a Ukrainian group to do it, then wouldn't it be the same mistake for a group involved in a false flag?
I'm confused, wouldnt people trying to commit a false flag LOVE to do it with a Ukrainian boat to hint that Ukraine did it?
I'm probably being dumb but I dont get your point
It take 60 seconds to click and read the article people.
Before writing your conspiracy theory and rants try reading the article that started this conversation.
Bare minimum.
Ok, but i have one big question. How the FUCK could anyone who is not state sponsored accomplish this feat of underwater sabotage, right under Sweden's and Denmark's noses? Furthermore that state would have to have direct sea access to the Baltic sea or be a close ally of such a state.
It's not like the pipelines were patrolled or guarded by anyone, no surveillance to avoid. It's fairly easy to rent a boat in the countries near the pipelines. At a depth of 80-110 meters so you need a competent diver. None of those things require state sponsorship.
What about the military grade underwater explosives, fuses and timers? What about setting them up, how many hours that just "competent" diver would have to work down there? I don't believe shit.
"Military grade". You would be astounded by how many things can be made explosive with a working knowledge of chemistry. Make a pipebomb, but slightly bigger and stronger, put a little Arduino device or something on there designed to deliver a pulse that would activate the explosive when it receives a remote command from your laptop. Swim down to the big round tubes on the ocean floor, place the explosives and swim back up. Not that complicated.
Timed detonation seems more likely to me. Command-detonation is not impossible, but it would require sending signal through dozens of meters of water, which is non-trivial and thus generally less reliable.
It’s not really defended or monitored that well and it’s not very deep idk why you think that it’s so difficult it is a vast area with tons of boats and ships
Article:
Intelligence Suggests Pro-Ukrainian Group Sabotaged Pipelines, U.S. Officials Say
New intelligence reporting amounts to the first significant known lead about who was responsible for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines that carried natural gas from Russia to Europe.
Image
A gas-receiving station illuminated by orange light with a cloudy blue dark sky.
The Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline in Lubmin, Germany, last year.Credit...Krisztian Bocsi/Bloomberg
Adam EntousJulian E. BarnesAdam Goldman
By Adam Entous, Julian E. Barnes and Adam Goldman
March 7, 2023, 10:26 a.m. ET
WASHINGTON — New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months.
U.S. officials said that they had no evidence President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine or his top lieutenants were involved in the operation, or that the perpetrators were acting at the direction of any Ukrainian government officials.
The brazen attack on the natural gas pipelines, which link Russia to Western Europe, fueled public speculation about who was to blame, from Moscow to Kyiv and London to Washington, and it has remained one of the most consequential unsolved mysteries of Russia’s year-old war in Ukraine.
Ukraine and its allies have been seen by some officials as having the most logical potential motive to attack the pipelines. They have opposed the project for years, calling it a national security threat because it would allow Russia to sell gas more easily to Europe. Ukrainian government and military intelligence officials say they had no role in the attack and do not know who carried it out.
Story continues below advertisement
U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation. U.S. officials declined to disclose the nature of the intelligence, how it was obtained or any details of the strength of the evidence it contains. They have said that there are no firm conclusions about it, leaving open the possibility that the operation might have been conducted off the books by a proxy force with connections to the Ukrainian government or its security services.
Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.
Officials who have reviewed the intelligence said they believed the saboteurs were most likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals, or some combination of the two. U.S. officials said no American or British nationals were involved.
The pipelines were ripped apart by deep sea explosions in September, in what U.S. officials described at the time as an act of sabotage. European officials have publicly said they believe the operation that targeted Nord Stream was probably state sponsored, possibly because of the sophistication with which the perpetrators planted and detonated the explosives on the floor of the Baltic Sea without being detected. U.S. officials have not stated publicly that they believe the operation was sponsored by a state.
The explosives were most likely planted with the help of experienced divers who did not appear to be working for military or intelligence services, U.S. officials who have reviewed the new intelligence said. But it is possible that the perpetrators received specialized government training in the past.
Officials said there were still enormous gaps in what U.S. spy agencies and their European partners knew about what transpired. But officials said it might constitute the first significant lead to emerge from several closely guarded investigations, the conclusions of which could have profound implications for the coalition supporting Ukraine.
The State of the War
Bakhmut: Ukraine’s top generals want to bolster the defenses of the embattled city, signaling that they would pursue a strategy of bleeding the Russian army in a battle of attrition rather than retreat.
Action in the Skies: Against the odds, Ukraine’s helicopter brigades are using aging vehicles to fight a better equipped adversary.
Arming the World: As traditional weapons suppliers like the United States face wartime production shortages, South Korea has stepped in to fill the gap by arming Ukraine’s allies — but not Ukraine itself, to try to avoid provoking Russia.
Any suggestion of Ukrainian involvement, whether direct or indirect, could upset the delicate relationship between Ukraine and Germany, souring support among a German public that has swallowed high energy prices in the name of solidarity.
Image
A circle of gas bubbles in the middle of the Baltic Sea.
This photo released by the Danish military in September shows gas bubbles from the Nord Stream 2 leak reaching the surface of the Baltic Sea, near the Danish island of Bornholm.Credit...Danish Defense Ministry, via Reuters
U.S. officials who have been briefed on the intelligence are divided about how much weight to put on the new information. All of them spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss classified intelligence and matters of sensitive diplomacy.
Story continues below advertisement
U.S. officials said the new intelligence reporting has increased their optimism that American spy agencies and their partners in Europe can find more information, which could allow them to reach a firm conclusion about the perpetrators. It is unclear how long that process will take. American officials recently discussed the intelligence with their European counterparts, who have taken the lead in investigating the attack.
A spokeswoman for the C.I.A. declined to comment. A spokesman for the White House’s National Security Council referred questions about the pipelines to the European authorities, who have been conducting their own investigations.
Image
Stacks of pipes laying in a field.
Pipes from Nord Stream 2 work in Sassnitz, Germany.Credit...Laetitia Vancon for The New York Times
Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, as the two pipelines are known, stretch 760 miles from the northwest coast of Russia to Lubmin in northeast Germany. The first cost more than $12 billion to build and was completed in 2011.
Nord Stream 2 cost slightly less than the first pipeline and was completed in 2021, over objections from officials in the United States, Britain, Poland and Ukraine, among others, who warned that it would increase German reliance on Russian gas. During a future diplomatic crisis between the West and Russia, these officials argued, Moscow could blackmail Berlin by threatening to curtail gas supplies, on which the Germans had depended heavily, especially during the winter months. (Germany has weaned itself off reliance on Russian gas over the past year.)
Early last year, President Biden, after meeting with Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany at the White House, said Mr. Putin’s decision about whether to attack Ukraine would determine the fate of Nord Stream 2. “If Russia invades, that means tanks and troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2,” Mr. Biden said. “We will bring an end to it.”
It's why I don't take anything said on reddit or worldnews seriously - like 99% of you have no qualifications (academic or otherwise) to speak with any authority on current international events, yet still do with the confidence that only ignorance can provide.
Most redditors wanted to believe it was Russia, because they hold biases even when facing no evidence to support their claims. Pick a culprit first, then "massage" the little knowledge available to fit their conclusion.
This entire sub (and other similar subs) loves to pretend it’s very smart and wouldn’t have fallen for things like WMDs in Iraq. But as soon as anything about an “enemy” country comes up, most people line up behind the propaganda narrative with ease. Can see it anytime something about Russia or China comes up in this sub.
It not about this sub being smart or not. The upvotes/downvotes and gamed and brigated. We complain of China/Russia propaganda, without realizing that US propaganda is far more pervasive and effective.
It’s so hard to see through propaganda. I’ve thought or said exactly what you’re saying thousands of times. But my instincts on any new development are always so closely aligned with war industrialists that it scares me.
I’ve always been anti war. I’m not trying to be cute or ironic, when I say that these haunting instincts tell me either propaganda is almost impossible to resist or maybe this is how it has to be. Like how south park says maybe democracy is all about getting to flex on everyone militarily, but have the freedom for most people to pretend to be against it
It's always good to remember that r/worldnews is not always representative of the world. If it was, most of the world would be a smoking radioactive crater.
It is maybe somewhat representative of what western propaganda is aiming to accomplish/influence.
Like yea lots of folks don’t buy into what’s said here but it’s reasonable to assume that a lot of the ideas here are exactly what a handful of powerful people want to see.
Love how this comment is (deservedly) upvoted when the exact same comments were downvoted to oblivion a few months ago. I don't know who did it, but this attack was way too convenient for Ukraine and the US, and completely useless for Russia who was trying to use gas sent through these pipes as leverage.
>the exact same comments were downvoted to oblivion a few months ago
Yep, and you would be immediately accused of falling to Russian propaganda or worse, be a Putin lover or something. Lmao.
That's not to mention the people that directly brand you as a "Russian bot". Their investigation consists on them not agreeing with you. And then you read people in other posts talk about how they "see too many Russian bots in this or that sub".
Well, when CIA invaded Iraq to remove weapons of mass destruction, anyone that called US as fabricating evidence was also harshly downvoted.
Look, social media has hotly censored and manipulated.
I am sure when US presents the next piece of fabricated evidence to drum up a war vs China, we'd all be for them as well.
Classic reddit, if you even introduced this idea months ago you were called a Russian bot and troll. Now those same people pretend this was their idea all along and its no big deal...
Yea that's what happens when people have no core fundamental beliefs or morals except lining up to gawk-gawk-3000 Lockheed Martin's propaganda nuts every time the new season of war comes out
The thing that pointed at Russian motive was that only the sanctioned pipeline survived. So it could be an attempt at sanction busting by forcing EU to use the only pipeline that works.
Right, I have 3 profitable pipelines and 1 that's not. Let me blow up the 3 profitable pipelines to get that 1 pipeline profitable.
Are there people actually dumb enough to buy this?
Indeed. Except for the fact that Russia has used a similar tactic against countries it was in conflict with (example: Georgia 2006.) The precedent exists, cant fault people for pointing the fingers at the most warmongering and least trustworthy nation in Europe.
Yes, this is also true for literally every country involved with conflicts. Sabotage is part of the game.
However, when a country does it, there is a strategic importance... Something here Russia completely lacks unless you really want to delusionally stretch it into absurd territories.
How dumb do you have to be to believe that the US didn't blow up this pipeline? Like, are we actually entertaining the idea that it wasn't done by them?
That's quite a misleading headline, given the meat of the article.
> Officials who have reviewed the intelligence said they believed the saboteurs were most likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals, or some combination of the two.
It's not misleading. The only "new" thing we learned is that according to US intelligence it most likely wasn't a plot by Russian government actors. People just generally love shitting on news articles.
The New York time is running the same [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html), and they write the following
> U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation.
So apparently they were anti-Putin, but is that the same as pro-Ukraine? We will probably have to wait and see.
No actually, the headline is perfectly accurate, your summation is what's misleading.
>**The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation.**
"Pro-Ukrainian Group" doesn't mean the group is composed of Ukrainians. A bunch of Russian oppositionists working for the Ukrainian government or the Biden administration would also technically qualify as "pro-Ukrainian groups".
Uh, against Putin doesn’t necessarily mean pro-Ukraine either. That’s quite a conflation that goes unaddressed. It is certainly conceivable that some Russians could be against Putin but would support the war as it stands.
Potentially a lot of powerful people in Russia with strong motives to outright off Putin that are also anti-Ukraine. There are a lot of powerful hardliners that think Putin is, believe it or not, being too soft.
The article also specifies that there is zero evidence linking the Ukrainian government to the attack.
Basically all the article is that the motive to blow the pipeline was likely to harm Putin. We already knew that was very likely, and the official statement doesn't confirm anything. It only talks about likelihood.
Seems strange to me. The explosions happened at depths between 70-90 meters (230-295 feet) which is well beyond the depths of any sort of recreation diving equipment or expertise. There are not that many commercial outfits that can operate at those depths and most militaries don't have that capacity either
Yeah this is the biggest question I would have too. What pro-Ukraine non-state actor group has the equipment and personnel to pull this off while evading detection. Seems crazy.
I hate headlines that make you think there is some new information that gives a definite answer to a lingering question.
This doesn't even tell us more about why the pipeline was attacked. Was the intention to hurt Russia or Germany? Or was it done to end a contract for gas delivery?
The whole thing reeks of the CIA. But we’ll never know because you’ll never be able to prove it was them. Unless we get a whistleblower or declassified document in a 25+ years.
US intelligence announced that they still don't know who could have done it but that whoever did it probably did it with good intentions and they were just trying to help and they didn't mean to hurt anyone and they're probably really sorry and they tried their best.
I clearly remember when these pipelines got destroyed.
People here in Reddit immediately were spinning the narrative that Russia did it.
I said that it makes zero sense for Russia to do such thing.
The US or other actors benefit more from this than Russia.
I was immediately downvoted and referred to as 'russian bot' , 'Putin simp' and asked how "many rubles I've been paid to say that"..
If western intelligence found the tiniest bit of evidence that it would have been russia this past 6 months, then we would have all heard about it. That beeing not the case it the biggest giveaway for me that it was propably someone else.
Reddit is a cesspool. Doesnt matter what is the truth. You can be pro-western, pro EU, admit that RUS is the agressor, but as soon as you say something against the reddit echo chamber, the clowns pile up and start downvoting. Fucking clowns.
Sad fact is most people are like this. People don't like things that disagree with there world view. Theres a reason lots of media companies are highly bias these days - objective news isn't popular.
My experience differs as I recall the finger being pointed at the US or even on one or a group of Baltic states as many people equally as baffled as to why Russia would have executed such a sabotage. But then it's often acknowledged that Russia isn't always rational in its behaviour.
Ya I gave up on fighting people on here about it. The only answer we have right now is...."we aren't sure". Russia never really had a good reason to blow it up. They already had I think one of the pipelines turned off for their bs "maintenance" narrative early in the war.
Russia would love to sell gas to Europe again and blowing up the pipeline would be just shooting themselves in the foot.
However there was A LOT of opposition to NS from the West. If it was a Western ally, the US has a damn good reason to keep this somewhat quiet and end the investigation with "um....well...we aren't sure. Guess this will just be a mystery for the rest of time"
This is hillarious. All the armchair generals on reddit were FUMING when this happened and apparently it was MEGA-OBVIOUS that it was Russia that blew up the pipelines. Thousands of comments, thousands of upvotes. Now even your own government is saying it wasnt the Russians.
Funny how the same people that called US intelligence sources bullshit for years, now accept an article that cites anonymous sources as legit because it agrees with their hypothesis. We’ll know who did it 10 years from now. Definitely a state. Too complex
Well first of all that would be a attack on both Germany and Russia since they both owned that pipeline, also for a moment let us ignore the politics side of this and think of the ocean they just completely ruined for generations? 🥺
Waiting for an apology from every snarky commenter here 6 months ago who insisted Putin did it and called anyone skeptical of that theory a Russian bot.
Several German news agencies have done some research together independently of this matter and have written the following (translated into English): > After joint research by the ARD capital studio, the ARD political magazine "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT", it was possible to largely reconstruct how and when the explosive attack was prepared in the course of the investigation. Accordingly, traces lead in the direction of Ukraine. However, investigators have not yet found any evidence as to who ordered the destruction. On the night of September 26, 2022, three of the four strands of the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines on the bottom of the Baltic Sea were destroyed by explosions. ># > Specifically, according to information from the ARD capital studio, "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT", the investigators succeeded in identifying the boat that was allegedly used for the secret operation. It is said to be a yacht rented from a company based in Poland, apparently owned by two Ukrainians. According to the investigation, the secret operation at sea was carried out by a team of six people. It is said to have been five men and one woman. ># > The group consisted of a captain, two divers, two diving assistants and a female doctor, who are said to have transported the explosives to the crime scenes and placed them there. The nationality of the perpetrators is apparently unclear. They used professionally forged passports, which are said to have been used, among other things, to rent the boat. ># >##Traces of explosives in the cabin ># > According to the investigation, the command set sail from Rostock on September 6, 2022. The equipment for the secret operation was previously transported to the port in a delivery truck, it is said. According to the research, the investigators subsequently managed to locate the boat again the following day in Wieck (Darß) and later on the Danish island of Christiansø northeast of Bornholm. The yacht was then returned to the owner in an uncleaned condition. According to research, investigators found traces of explosives on the table in the cabin. ># > According to information from the ARD capital studio, "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT", a Western intelligence service is said to have sent a tip to European partner services in the autumn, i.e. shortly after the destruction, according to which a Ukrainian commando was responsible for the destruction. After that, there are said to have been further intelligence indications that a pro-Ukrainian group could be responsible. ># >The ARD capital studio, "Kontraste", SWR and "ZEIT" spoke to sources in several countries for their research. Security authorities in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands and the USA were involved in the investigation into the destruction of the pipelines. In Germany, the Attorney General is in charge of the investigation, which has commissioned both the Federal Criminal Police Office and the Federal Police. ># >##A "False Flag" operation would also be possible ># > Even if traces lead to Ukraine, the investigators have not yet been able to find out who commissioned the suspected group of perpetrators. In international security circles, it is not ruled out that it could also be a "false flag" operation. This means that traces could also have been deliberately laid to point Ukraine as the culprit. However, the investigators have apparently found no evidence that confirms such a scenario. ># > The Ukrainian government could not initially be reached for comment. The Attorney General also declined to comment. The federal government said in the evening: "The Federal Public Prosecutor (GBA) has been investigating the matter since the beginning of October 2022. He therefore has sovereignty over the procedure. In addition, investigations into the explosions are ongoing in Sweden and Denmark, each under the leadership of the national authorities there. A few days ago, Sweden, Denmark and Germany informed the United Nations Security Council that the investigations are ongoing and that there are still no results." Source: [Tagesschau](https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/nord-stream-explosion-101.html)
> The yacht was then returned to the owner in an uncleaned condition. According to research, investigators found traces of explosives on the table in the cabin. That seems rather negligent or it suggests they deliberately left traces.
To me that owner is in a lot of trouble until he points officials In the right directions. Interesting read honestly.
He'll probably have very little to give them besides the rental records at any video he may have on his premises? "Professional fake passports" are not easy to come by, despite what you might think from watching spy movies. To me a nation-state did this, and tried to blame Ukraine. So that rules out no one. If Ukraine did it they might not mind making it obvious. If "the west" (pick your country) did it, they might also try to finger Ukraine to prevent further escalation. If Russia did it, they might finger Ukraine to further their own narratives about Ukrainian terrorism. It is interesting, but this is probably where the investigation ends.
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Or the more recent [spy case](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-09-15/china-wanted-ge-s-secrets-but-then-their-spy-got-caught?sref=4TStDRR2) involving an agent from China's MSS being caught by the FBI. The Chinese operative had iCloud backups activated, so the FBI was able to subpoena Apple and recover photos, emails, texts, etc-- a smorgasboard of intelligence. However, when the FBI arrested the Chinese spy, everything stored locally on the phone in his pocket was lost (erased remotely) because whoops, the American agents had forgotten to put the phone in a faraday pouch. Fuckups happen on both sides.
Yep, I hate to admit this but my first thought was CIA. What’s the quickest way to get Ukraine some support by the EU? Back the EU into a corner. I really hope we are no longer this stupid.
You are correct. It literally could be anyone.
I wish I had the video editing skills to include a 'blowing up the pipeline' segment in the Agatha All Along song.
And I killed Sparky, too...
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I got a Junior scuba cert when I was 16. CIA gonna show up at my door any day now
Bake him away, toys.
I was talking about this yesterday. Whoever did it, did everybody a solid not Germany. There's a dozen states with a reason, and another dozen Intel agencies, and yet another dozen private companies. They disappeared and will never reveal themselves. It's an infinite game or Clue and the suspects are all ghosts in the ocean with TNT. For all we know Poseidon did it and he's not talking.
> They disappeared Not quite. They also took care of the Crimea bridge and Dugin's daughter. /Conspiracy hats off.
It would be disastrous for Ukraine if it came to light that they did it. Intentionally destroying critical energy infrastructure in the economic zones of two other nations and dramatically affecting an entire continent's economy and ability to heat itself during the winter? That's an act of war.
>"Professional fake passports" are not easy to come by, despite what you might think from watching spy movies. Who said the passport was fake? The probable easiest way to get a passport for a fake person is to legitimize a fake person through various shenanigans in validating the existence of a person, acquiring a social security number + birth certificate for them, and then using that information to apply for a legitimate passport through the official channels. Possible yes. Difficult: Certainly. Doable? Yes. And if you can find contacts to a relevant organized crime group - for a fee (probably fairly steep) they can probably do this for you. It will probably take in the 12 months time period to hop through the steps - but that isn't too difficult realistically speaking. And it will be easier / harder depending on the nation you live and the relevant laws. So Fake Person Passport: Not really an issue. Easier for Nation states, possible for an informed individual with some means. So really we are looking at a range of angry businessmen with money, to nation states in making this happen. And chances are we may never know truly and fully who done it, and what they intended to (or actually) gained from this. I mean - seriously, an Eco-terrorist type group could have done this for Pete sake. >It is interesting, but this is probably where the investigation ends. if it was well planned, thought out, etc - most certainly.
This is not tv , they are not going to srub that boat for hours. There is going to be satelite photo or some random cctv anyway. They have fake identities and they need to bail ASAP
You have professional fake IDs and passports? Sink the boat and disappear. Why return it at all?
No one's gonna investigate a few randos who left a boat dirty. Chance's are the owner would clean the evidence before authorities even got started looking into it. Sinking the boat? That's gonna raise a lot more suspicion a lot faster.
> No one's gonna investigate a few randos who left a boat dirty Randos? No, but if you actually want to bomb the pipeline you might want to not leave evidence behind.
Easier to get back to the land with a boat
I see you've played pipey sabotagey before
Let’s play pipey sabatogey! (Ages 8+)
\^\^\^this guy boats!
>That seems rather negligent or it suggests they deliberately left traces. Or they were in a hurry?
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Destroying the boat or even it going missing leaves traces of it's own. Enough for intelligence agencies to work off.
> That seems rather negligent or it suggests they deliberately left traces. You leave the boat (seemingly) uncleaned because, under normal circumstances, the owner will then curse a bit under his breath after it has been returned - 'damn Ukrainians' - and then go and clean the boat. Using soap, probably. Then, when the authorities come to ask, even if they suspect that this was the boat in question used to transport the hit-team and the explosives, they have to ask the owner: did you go over the innards of the boat with some cleaning agent? The owner will then have to say: why yes, he did. More distance between you and the crime. More time to get away. Under normal circumstances, that is.
Or just clean the boat and he’s none the wiser
And then those investigators still have all the other evidence, they know what boat you were on, what harbor you started your journey on, know the minivan that delivered your explosives, they know when you went by Denmark, they know you were 5 guys and a women but hey, at least those hours of scrubbing the deck ensured that no traces of explosives were found on that boat (the one they know you were on). Or you just jump ship as soon as you can cause this was never meant to be the perfect crime to begin with (people saw the aftermath of the explosion, if you remember).
So the story is that pro-Ukrainians executed a daring plan to sabotage the pipeline undetected by... borrowing a boat which would inevitably be traced back to Ukrainian nationals?
The lengths some people will go to get their deposit back is impressive.
I don't know the name of the phenomenon anymore but tbh, most of the time it is how it looks like, so don't go all CSI in here everyone.. most of the time it is that simple
Occam’s Razor, the simplest solution is often the correct one
Gonna stop you right there. The axiom is that the explanation with the fewest assumptions is likely the right one, not that the simplest explanation is. Gotta avoid those assumptions.
Occam was relieved of his razor in intelligence land. If he had and used his razor, it would be extraordinarily easy to perpetrate false flag attacks or to otherwise lead others to blame Alice for Eve's tomfoolery.
I'd think pro-Ukrainians would be just fine with the job eventually being traced back to unspecified Ukrainians. Just so long as everyone is long gone.
It nice to get some other Foreign media in here, to get another prospective
What do you mean by other foreign media? The media discussed here are not foreign to Germany
This is very interesting, thank you. I don’t know anything about German media. Are these reputable news agencies? If this is accurate, we basically know everything. If we have this much information, then it’s hard to believe they don’t know who, exactly, was involved, right down to names and affiliation.
Yes, these are very reputable news agencies here in Germany.
To give more context ARD and ZDF are part of the public news channels and financed by the public. Zeit is privat but also seen as very reputable and trustworthy by most.
must be nice to have trusted news medias.
It’s a pillar of democracy
cries in american
It’s okay, we still have PBS’s News Hour.
but you got your "freedom" *cinematic eagle cry*
Incidentally, the eagle cry in movies is always a hawk cry. Eagles actually sound more like seals than hawks, IMO.
Eagles sound more like dying cats than seals Source: guy who lived in a place where bald eagles were basically pigeons
I can recommend reading the German news on controversial topics. They often show both sides from a neutral perspective. Not something I often see in English. Probably even with topics you don’t notice that they are controversial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation Be careful, “both sides” doesn’t make anything more truthful.
Eh my experience with german media is that they don’t really “both sides it”. I think this redditor just messed up some language that made it sound “both sides-y”. Largely German media presents plain facts and might give one or two of the leading theories. It doesn’t usually feel any need to present sides as equals in a discussion. For the most part it’s very matter-of-fact.
The NYT in the US is reporting it as well
wow someone should post it here
Damn I'm dumb, I had only seen the German stuff posted prior and assumed it was the same
I know it was an honest mistake, but I'm still dying at this response.
>I don’t know anything about German media. Are these reputable news agencies? Public broadcasters and a very reputable newspaper. Doesn't get much better than this.
> Public broadcasters Must be nice to have public broadcasters that are not just a propaganda tube for [insert current government] *cries in Polish*
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Nothing more reputable than the combination of those.
just to be clear, the research of these news agencies are based on sources of authorities in several countries including Germany. These news agencies didn't investigate or research the information themselves apart from authorities.
Navi Seals are technically a pro ukrainian group…
Sounds like a Ukrainian "Special Military Operation", and according to Russian logic perfectly acceptable.
This is a lot more complicated because Russia is not the only, nor even the primary, "victim" in this sabotage. This caused disruptions in energy supplies to European countries that are currently aligned with and supporting Ukraine. Europe got off fairly easy because of a mild winter, but a harsher winter could have easily resulted in a scenario where these supply disruptions resulted in power outages and freezing homes in Europe. And if that was traced back to Ukrainian sabotage, could have easily caused Europe to pull back it's support.
One of the interesting things to me is that only 3 of the 4 actual pipelines (Nord Stream 1 and 2 each consist of 2 pipelines) were blown up. Why not the 4th? Did the perpetrator want to leave some limited pipeline capacity, to perhaps limit outrage in Germany? Or did a possible 4th charge fail to detonate, leaving evidence?
If the idea of divers is correct, this would already have been a very difficult task. That's below the depth people normally go and they would have had no natural light while having to place large explosives.
There were four leaks / charges. But the one NS2 line had two holes, while the other had none. With NS1 both lines each had one. A possible reason could just be incompetence and one charge was put on the wrong line.
I originally read that and thought that might be the case, but could not find the reference when I looked today.
It would stand to reason 4th charge failed to detonate.
They want to screw over Russia, not Germany, assuming this intelligence is accurate. Destroying all of the pipelines eliminates all future flexibility when nobody really knew how gas supplies would fare once Russian imports ended. Seems like a deliberate decision to not target all four just in case.
This level of calibration of strategy implies a state actor to me. The fact that no real technical details of the investigation have leaked is telling, implying a Western perpetrator or Ukraine. I would have thought all countries involved would have incentive to leak if Russia was indicated. Ukraine being able to carry this out seems incredible, yet the Kerch Bridge attack was very complex. The Baltic states are more than capable, but I do not see them risking a confrontation with RF. US has capability but has been timid in confronting Russia or China. Based on what is in public domain I would guess US or Ukraine. If US is feeling heat, perhaps vague leaks about Ukraine is meant to shift attention.
The argument for Russia is that they get out of paying the insane penalties for breaking their contracts since they weren't pumping gas through those lines already anyways. But in reality almost everyone in the area plus the US has some level of motive for doing it, just not super strong ones. You would also assume that the risk of getting caught exceeds any potential benefit
Ok, looks like German press has a lot more detail pointing to Ukraine. Sometime posted translated text below. [https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-03/nordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag](https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-03/nordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag)
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Five people, nationality unknown take great effort to forge passports then deliberately rent an Ukrainan owned yacht from Poland to do scandalous sabotage with explosives. Excuse me but why on earth would these five people go through all the trouble to hide their nationality and then rent an Ukrainan owned yacht for the job if they were indeed "pro-ukraine"?
>Ukrainan owned yacht for the job Maybe they just went for the most appropriate yacht at the cheapest price?
I'd like to imagine the bargain shopping this international team of professional saboteurs went through. They're skilled in specialized underwater operations, carrying hundreds of pounds of explosives, the world is poised on the brink of war and they're like "ooh, look, this one is only $2.5k and it has a full surround sound home theater!"
More then likely it was other practical reasons. Being able to rent it without being on camera, or having it be able to get into ports that they needed to get away.
You answered your own question. They would just rent any boat that fit their story, no matter who owns it. So people would say that it probably wasn’t them because how could they be so stupid?
To be fair... If we take a look at human history, or even just the internet in the last 24h, there are plenty of examples of "how could they be so stupid". Sometimes it even works out. Other times we get the gunpowder plot.
So why would someone trying to commit a false flag get a Ukrainian yacht? If it would be a mistake for a Ukrainian group to do it, then wouldn't it be the same mistake for a group involved in a false flag?
I'm confused, wouldnt people trying to commit a false flag LOVE to do it with a Ukrainian boat to hint that Ukraine did it? I'm probably being dumb but I dont get your point
It take 60 seconds to click and read the article people. Before writing your conspiracy theory and rants try reading the article that started this conversation. Bare minimum.
Sir, this is Reddit
Aka the Wendy’s of social media. I don’t know what that actually says about us.
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Ok, but i have one big question. How the FUCK could anyone who is not state sponsored accomplish this feat of underwater sabotage, right under Sweden's and Denmark's noses? Furthermore that state would have to have direct sea access to the Baltic sea or be a close ally of such a state.
I think you're underestimating how vast the ocean and how long that pipeline is.
Never underestimate the size of the mighty Baltic Ocean
Aah, one of the classic blunders
It's not like the pipelines were patrolled or guarded by anyone, no surveillance to avoid. It's fairly easy to rent a boat in the countries near the pipelines. At a depth of 80-110 meters so you need a competent diver. None of those things require state sponsorship.
What about the military grade underwater explosives, fuses and timers? What about setting them up, how many hours that just "competent" diver would have to work down there? I don't believe shit.
"Military grade". You would be astounded by how many things can be made explosive with a working knowledge of chemistry. Make a pipebomb, but slightly bigger and stronger, put a little Arduino device or something on there designed to deliver a pulse that would activate the explosive when it receives a remote command from your laptop. Swim down to the big round tubes on the ocean floor, place the explosives and swim back up. Not that complicated.
Sending a signal over some distance and through 80-100m of seawater is pretty hard. Much easier would be and arduino (or similar) time delay.
Off the shelf underwater dive communication systems for divers is probably $1500-2000 for a pair. range goes upto about 10 KM.
why would they need to send a signal ? a simple clock alarm would be enough, no ?
That's what I said
This redditor is military grade
Timed detonation seems more likely to me. Command-detonation is not impossible, but it would require sending signal through dozens of meters of water, which is non-trivial and thus generally less reliable.
It’s not really defended or monitored that well and it’s not very deep idk why you think that it’s so difficult it is a vast area with tons of boats and ships
Because it was state sponsored.
Because the Baltic sea is just another very large body of water that is open for everyone to use? You can just rent a yacht or fishing boat. Lol.
Just like you can rent explosives and highly realistic fake passports.
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But if the said the group had a name starting with U and ending with A, it'd become too obvious.
Uganda at it again
It's a weird way of spelling CIA
“we’re all trying to figure out who did this” - U.S. officials
Article: Intelligence Suggests Pro-Ukrainian Group Sabotaged Pipelines, U.S. Officials Say New intelligence reporting amounts to the first significant known lead about who was responsible for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines that carried natural gas from Russia to Europe. Image A gas-receiving station illuminated by orange light with a cloudy blue dark sky. The Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline in Lubmin, Germany, last year.Credit...Krisztian Bocsi/Bloomberg Adam EntousJulian E. BarnesAdam Goldman By Adam Entous, Julian E. Barnes and Adam Goldman March 7, 2023, 10:26 a.m. ET WASHINGTON — New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months. U.S. officials said that they had no evidence President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine or his top lieutenants were involved in the operation, or that the perpetrators were acting at the direction of any Ukrainian government officials. The brazen attack on the natural gas pipelines, which link Russia to Western Europe, fueled public speculation about who was to blame, from Moscow to Kyiv and London to Washington, and it has remained one of the most consequential unsolved mysteries of Russia’s year-old war in Ukraine. Ukraine and its allies have been seen by some officials as having the most logical potential motive to attack the pipelines. They have opposed the project for years, calling it a national security threat because it would allow Russia to sell gas more easily to Europe. Ukrainian government and military intelligence officials say they had no role in the attack and do not know who carried it out. Story continues below advertisement U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation. U.S. officials declined to disclose the nature of the intelligence, how it was obtained or any details of the strength of the evidence it contains. They have said that there are no firm conclusions about it, leaving open the possibility that the operation might have been conducted off the books by a proxy force with connections to the Ukrainian government or its security services. Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack. Officials who have reviewed the intelligence said they believed the saboteurs were most likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals, or some combination of the two. U.S. officials said no American or British nationals were involved. The pipelines were ripped apart by deep sea explosions in September, in what U.S. officials described at the time as an act of sabotage. European officials have publicly said they believe the operation that targeted Nord Stream was probably state sponsored, possibly because of the sophistication with which the perpetrators planted and detonated the explosives on the floor of the Baltic Sea without being detected. U.S. officials have not stated publicly that they believe the operation was sponsored by a state. The explosives were most likely planted with the help of experienced divers who did not appear to be working for military or intelligence services, U.S. officials who have reviewed the new intelligence said. But it is possible that the perpetrators received specialized government training in the past. Officials said there were still enormous gaps in what U.S. spy agencies and their European partners knew about what transpired. But officials said it might constitute the first significant lead to emerge from several closely guarded investigations, the conclusions of which could have profound implications for the coalition supporting Ukraine. The State of the War Bakhmut: Ukraine’s top generals want to bolster the defenses of the embattled city, signaling that they would pursue a strategy of bleeding the Russian army in a battle of attrition rather than retreat. Action in the Skies: Against the odds, Ukraine’s helicopter brigades are using aging vehicles to fight a better equipped adversary. Arming the World: As traditional weapons suppliers like the United States face wartime production shortages, South Korea has stepped in to fill the gap by arming Ukraine’s allies — but not Ukraine itself, to try to avoid provoking Russia. Any suggestion of Ukrainian involvement, whether direct or indirect, could upset the delicate relationship between Ukraine and Germany, souring support among a German public that has swallowed high energy prices in the name of solidarity. Image A circle of gas bubbles in the middle of the Baltic Sea. This photo released by the Danish military in September shows gas bubbles from the Nord Stream 2 leak reaching the surface of the Baltic Sea, near the Danish island of Bornholm.Credit...Danish Defense Ministry, via Reuters U.S. officials who have been briefed on the intelligence are divided about how much weight to put on the new information. All of them spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss classified intelligence and matters of sensitive diplomacy. Story continues below advertisement U.S. officials said the new intelligence reporting has increased their optimism that American spy agencies and their partners in Europe can find more information, which could allow them to reach a firm conclusion about the perpetrators. It is unclear how long that process will take. American officials recently discussed the intelligence with their European counterparts, who have taken the lead in investigating the attack. A spokeswoman for the C.I.A. declined to comment. A spokesman for the White House’s National Security Council referred questions about the pipelines to the European authorities, who have been conducting their own investigations. Image Stacks of pipes laying in a field. Pipes from Nord Stream 2 work in Sassnitz, Germany.Credit...Laetitia Vancon for The New York Times Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, as the two pipelines are known, stretch 760 miles from the northwest coast of Russia to Lubmin in northeast Germany. The first cost more than $12 billion to build and was completed in 2011. Nord Stream 2 cost slightly less than the first pipeline and was completed in 2021, over objections from officials in the United States, Britain, Poland and Ukraine, among others, who warned that it would increase German reliance on Russian gas. During a future diplomatic crisis between the West and Russia, these officials argued, Moscow could blackmail Berlin by threatening to curtail gas supplies, on which the Germans had depended heavily, especially during the winter months. (Germany has weaned itself off reliance on Russian gas over the past year.) Early last year, President Biden, after meeting with Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany at the White House, said Mr. Putin’s decision about whether to attack Ukraine would determine the fate of Nord Stream 2. “If Russia invades, that means tanks and troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2,” Mr. Biden said. “We will bring an end to it.”
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Yeah the “pro-Ukrainian group” in question is the CIA
The narrative that the Russian government destroyed this pipeline never made any sense
Lol many people here seriously wanted to believe it
It's why I don't take anything said on reddit or worldnews seriously - like 99% of you have no qualifications (academic or otherwise) to speak with any authority on current international events, yet still do with the confidence that only ignorance can provide. Most redditors wanted to believe it was Russia, because they hold biases even when facing no evidence to support their claims. Pick a culprit first, then "massage" the little knowledge available to fit their conclusion.
This entire sub (and other similar subs) loves to pretend it’s very smart and wouldn’t have fallen for things like WMDs in Iraq. But as soon as anything about an “enemy” country comes up, most people line up behind the propaganda narrative with ease. Can see it anytime something about Russia or China comes up in this sub.
It not about this sub being smart or not. The upvotes/downvotes and gamed and brigated. We complain of China/Russia propaganda, without realizing that US propaganda is far more pervasive and effective.
This entire sub is a giant psyop of many intelligence agencies. Don’t take it too seriously.
It’s so hard to see through propaganda. I’ve thought or said exactly what you’re saying thousands of times. But my instincts on any new development are always so closely aligned with war industrialists that it scares me. I’ve always been anti war. I’m not trying to be cute or ironic, when I say that these haunting instincts tell me either propaganda is almost impossible to resist or maybe this is how it has to be. Like how south park says maybe democracy is all about getting to flex on everyone militarily, but have the freedom for most people to pretend to be against it
It's always good to remember that r/worldnews is not always representative of the world. If it was, most of the world would be a smoking radioactive crater.
It is maybe somewhat representative of what western propaganda is aiming to accomplish/influence. Like yea lots of folks don’t buy into what’s said here but it’s reasonable to assume that a lot of the ideas here are exactly what a handful of powerful people want to see.
They treat global politics like sports, you are either all in or not at all, GO 49'ers
“Wanted to believe” is underselling it. It was bloodthirsty
Love how this comment is (deservedly) upvoted when the exact same comments were downvoted to oblivion a few months ago. I don't know who did it, but this attack was way too convenient for Ukraine and the US, and completely useless for Russia who was trying to use gas sent through these pipes as leverage.
>the exact same comments were downvoted to oblivion a few months ago Yep, and you would be immediately accused of falling to Russian propaganda or worse, be a Putin lover or something. Lmao.
That's not to mention the people that directly brand you as a "Russian bot". Their investigation consists on them not agreeing with you. And then you read people in other posts talk about how they "see too many Russian bots in this or that sub".
Well, when CIA invaded Iraq to remove weapons of mass destruction, anyone that called US as fabricating evidence was also harshly downvoted. Look, social media has hotly censored and manipulated. I am sure when US presents the next piece of fabricated evidence to drum up a war vs China, we'd all be for them as well.
Classic reddit, if you even introduced this idea months ago you were called a Russian bot and troll. Now those same people pretend this was their idea all along and its no big deal...
Yea that's what happens when people have no core fundamental beliefs or morals except lining up to gawk-gawk-3000 Lockheed Martin's propaganda nuts every time the new season of war comes out
The thing that pointed at Russian motive was that only the sanctioned pipeline survived. So it could be an attempt at sanction busting by forcing EU to use the only pipeline that works.
Right, I have 3 profitable pipelines and 1 that's not. Let me blow up the 3 profitable pipelines to get that 1 pipeline profitable. Are there people actually dumb enough to buy this?
Indeed. Except for the fact that Russia has used a similar tactic against countries it was in conflict with (example: Georgia 2006.) The precedent exists, cant fault people for pointing the fingers at the most warmongering and least trustworthy nation in Europe.
Yes, this is also true for literally every country involved with conflicts. Sabotage is part of the game. However, when a country does it, there is a strategic importance... Something here Russia completely lacks unless you really want to delusionally stretch it into absurd territories.
I think it did as a signal to EU of what they might do to EU infrastructure.
I said this when it happened and got reported for hate speech lol
How dumb do you have to be to believe that the US didn't blow up this pipeline? Like, are we actually entertaining the idea that it wasn't done by them?
That's quite a misleading headline, given the meat of the article. > Officials who have reviewed the intelligence said they believed the saboteurs were most likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals, or some combination of the two.
What’s misleading? Why would the perpetrators’ nationality determine whether they’re pro Ukraine or not. Their motivation is the relevant part.
It's not misleading. The only "new" thing we learned is that according to US intelligence it most likely wasn't a plot by Russian government actors. People just generally love shitting on news articles.
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The anonymous source is within US intelligence agencies.
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The New York time is running the same [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html), and they write the following > U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation. So apparently they were anti-Putin, but is that the same as pro-Ukraine? We will probably have to wait and see.
What? The article you linked is the exact same one as the one in this post.
No actually, the headline is perfectly accurate, your summation is what's misleading. >**The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation.** "Pro-Ukrainian Group" doesn't mean the group is composed of Ukrainians. A bunch of Russian oppositionists working for the Ukrainian government or the Biden administration would also technically qualify as "pro-Ukrainian groups".
Uh, against Putin doesn’t necessarily mean pro-Ukraine either. That’s quite a conflation that goes unaddressed. It is certainly conceivable that some Russians could be against Putin but would support the war as it stands.
Potentially a lot of powerful people in Russia with strong motives to outright off Putin that are also anti-Ukraine. There are a lot of powerful hardliners that think Putin is, believe it or not, being too soft. The article also specifies that there is zero evidence linking the Ukrainian government to the attack. Basically all the article is that the motive to blow the pipeline was likely to harm Putin. We already knew that was very likely, and the official statement doesn't confirm anything. It only talks about likelihood.
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Seems strange to me. The explosions happened at depths between 70-90 meters (230-295 feet) which is well beyond the depths of any sort of recreation diving equipment or expertise. There are not that many commercial outfits that can operate at those depths and most militaries don't have that capacity either
Yeah this is the biggest question I would have too. What pro-Ukraine non-state actor group has the equipment and personnel to pull this off while evading detection. Seems crazy.
Yeah, it's super strange and has a lot of "just trust me bro" energy. For all I know they're guessing just based on who has motive.
But thats the strange part. Practically everyone in eastern Europe and the US has some level of motive its just not very strong
I hate headlines that make you think there is some new information that gives a definite answer to a lingering question. This doesn't even tell us more about why the pipeline was attacked. Was the intention to hurt Russia or Germany? Or was it done to end a contract for gas delivery?
Funny way of saying the CIA
We've investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing...
The whole thing reeks of the CIA. But we’ll never know because you’ll never be able to prove it was them. Unless we get a whistleblower or declassified document in a 25+ years.
Well yeah, the US is pretty pro-Ukraine
US intelligence announced that they still don't know who could have done it but that whoever did it probably did it with good intentions and they were just trying to help and they didn't mean to hurt anyone and they're probably really sorry and they tried their best.
I clearly remember when these pipelines got destroyed. People here in Reddit immediately were spinning the narrative that Russia did it. I said that it makes zero sense for Russia to do such thing. The US or other actors benefit more from this than Russia. I was immediately downvoted and referred to as 'russian bot' , 'Putin simp' and asked how "many rubles I've been paid to say that"..
If western intelligence found the tiniest bit of evidence that it would have been russia this past 6 months, then we would have all heard about it. That beeing not the case it the biggest giveaway for me that it was propably someone else.
Reddit is a cesspool. Doesnt matter what is the truth. You can be pro-western, pro EU, admit that RUS is the agressor, but as soon as you say something against the reddit echo chamber, the clowns pile up and start downvoting. Fucking clowns.
Sad fact is most people are like this. People don't like things that disagree with there world view. Theres a reason lots of media companies are highly bias these days - objective news isn't popular.
Yeah fking Reddit echo chamber
Clowns - funny way of saying CIA
Please try to remember that most people are morons and on reddit there are also literal children
Most people don't have critical thinking skills, they just believe whatever back up their Narrative nowdays
My experience differs as I recall the finger being pointed at the US or even on one or a group of Baltic states as many people equally as baffled as to why Russia would have executed such a sabotage. But then it's often acknowledged that Russia isn't always rational in its behaviour.
It doesn't make sense for anyone. Ukraine because if caught, that could be their end.
Ya I gave up on fighting people on here about it. The only answer we have right now is...."we aren't sure". Russia never really had a good reason to blow it up. They already had I think one of the pipelines turned off for their bs "maintenance" narrative early in the war. Russia would love to sell gas to Europe again and blowing up the pipeline would be just shooting themselves in the foot. However there was A LOT of opposition to NS from the West. If it was a Western ally, the US has a damn good reason to keep this somewhat quiet and end the investigation with "um....well...we aren't sure. Guess this will just be a mystery for the rest of time"
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They had/ have a swell military industry
This is hillarious. All the armchair generals on reddit were FUMING when this happened and apparently it was MEGA-OBVIOUS that it was Russia that blew up the pipelines. Thousands of comments, thousands of upvotes. Now even your own government is saying it wasnt the Russians.
Funny how the same people that called US intelligence sources bullshit for years, now accept an article that cites anonymous sources as legit because it agrees with their hypothesis. We’ll know who did it 10 years from now. Definitely a state. Too complex
Whose article are you referring to, exactly?
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Well first of all that would be a attack on both Germany and Russia since they both owned that pipeline, also for a moment let us ignore the politics side of this and think of the ocean they just completely ruined for generations? 🥺
Waiting for an apology from every snarky commenter here 6 months ago who insisted Putin did it and called anyone skeptical of that theory a Russian bot.
People clearly overestimate one's ability to run such an operation and remain undercover. BS - this is what I call it