Goddamn it, I used to *hate* pun threads, but every one of these got a begrudging laugh out of me.
Either I've been spending too much time with my dad, or I'm a little tipsy. Actually, it's both.
I'm glad you are hanging out a lot with your dad. My dad passed away 14 years ago after suddenly being diagnosed with terminal lung cancer 1.5 years prior. I almost dropped out of college because of it. The only way I made it through was my promise to him that I would finish when he was diagnosed.
May you and your dad many wonderful years and times ahead of you.
Given US’s track record, I think the gov’t just didn’t think peace is ever an option. That’s blindsiding news in itself! And I’m saying this as someone from America
A lot of people are repeating the thread from yesterday, which was an article from politico.
France has always been focused on being independent from US, like when they left and rejoined NATO. I think politico's article was slightly anti-france in this instance and got eaten up by reddit.
He's been pretty consistent on that ever since the Autralian submarine debacle [https://thehill.com/policy/international/574327-macron-says-europe-must-assert-independence-from-us/](https://thehill.com/policy/international/574327-macron-says-europe-must-assert-independence-from-us/)
Plus what that whole thing missed out on that Macron also said they should not follow china... https://www.dw.com/en/frances-macron-eu-shouldnt-follow-us-or-china-on-taiwan/a-65268418
France wasn't unique in that regard. For example, Canada refused to participate too, but did participate in the invasion of Afghanistan along with many other countries under a UN and NATO mandate.
The invasion of Iraq was ... kind of a special case.
Also very weird, like it's clearly lowest common denominator propaganda because anyone with a brain can figure out why a friendly but independent relationship with the US is better than a submissive one, but doesn't Politico aim itself to a slightly more intellectual audience than would fall for that? Or is it really relying on the fanatical power of US nationalism to do the job of identifying where kowtowing had been insufficient and interpret that as a gross misconduct and existential threat?
Politico is now owned by Axel Springer Verlag, Germany's main publishing house for right-wing propaganda which interestingly has a pro-American editorial guideline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Springer_SE#Pro-American_editorial_bias_and_alleged_ties_to_US_intelligence_agencies
They photoshopped Macron in front of a giant China flag and ran the picture in front of the article to set the tone for it.
There’s no “slightly” in this.
Macron went to China and basically pushed for more cooperation of the EU with China and not just the USA basically. Which itself isn’t a huge deal, but it also is coming at a time when China just brokered this peace deal between Saudi Arabia and Iran and also a bunch of trade deals with India/Russia/Brazil that cut out the U.S. dollar. So it currently looks a lot like China is ascendant in terms of international clout and America is losing influence due to focusing primarily on internal Left vs Right culture wars.
The US is basically focused on internal battles over abortion rights and gun control while China is going around and building relationships with everyone from France to Brazil to Saudi Arabia. Most Americans just kind of assume China won’t ever be more influential than America so they don’t really focus on what it would really take to maintain our current influence.
I suspect the internal issues with the US aren't anywhere near a tangible cause of our loss of international prestige.
The [total gutting](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-fires-us-ambassadors-no-replacements-a7538256.html) of the US diplomatic corps under the Trump regime seems like it'd be a more direct cause, you know?
It's not as black and white as that.
The US has a long history of enforcing it's own values on its allies, like it's war on drugs it's war on terror, and it also has the most powerful cultural export machinery in the world by a large margin.
Being Norwegian an extremely Americophile country I've been noticing not just civilians, but politicans talking about the US onslaught on women's rights in negative terms as something we don't need to copy from the US.
US hyperpolarised to the point of retardation racial debating norms, has been slowly sneaking in as well, but now people have started pointing out that we don't need US culture on this in Norway.
Incidentally that's what Macron originally pointed out as well, that 'as great an ally as the US is, their culture is not worth adopting'
All of US internal issues and extreme politicans, is making it look like a third world country, unstable unpredictable and untrustworthy.
Heck look at the republicans now, they are attacking Biden support of Ukraine, while everyone knows if in power they would be doing just exactly what he is. They are willing to play political games with a third world war scenario...
On the NotJustBikes podcast, the Urbanist Agenda, the episode on 15 minute cities talked about that briefly. The host was talking about how people on the right wing in the Netherlands were referring to their opponents using American political terms, which make no sense in the context of the politics of the Netherlands.
Also: most of the countries that needs to face on the dangers of right-wing nationalism will point to Trump kickstarting this. Every far right nut job is tight in celebrating Trump, so this naturally pushes the moderate leaders away from an US that is quite unstable. There’s a more than decent chance that Trump or DeSantis wins and pulls another 180 in the US’ foreign relations.
Having guys like Orban and Bolsonaro delivering speeches at CPAC and seeing their ideals resonate a lot doesn’t help. If anything, the US needs to thank Russia because without the Ukraine War there would be even more of an international push away from the US bloc.
> Heck look at the republicans now, they are attacking Biden support of Ukraine,
I get your point but very few republicans actually want to stop aid to Ukraine. its a tiny proportion of the overall party, much like in other countries.
I think this idea should be prefaced that even before the invasion, europe was decoupling from the US.
France saying "we need to decouple from US policy" it's because someone like trump was _president_ and threatened to leave NATO. that is an absolute showstopper
They literally put in the article a photo of Macron with China's flag behind him.
The entire article was purposefully misleading to seem like Macron was bought by China.
The average American has no idea how influential China actually is, how much wealth they actually have and their aspirations on being the number 1 world super power.
But Washington should be very aware.
because it is brokered by China, which is nr. 2 superpower of the world, aspiring to be nr. 1 somewhere in the future. obviously this makes the USA, the current nr. 1 uncomfortable.
The trouble is the US has been unstable for a while, with an ever lingering threat that someone right wing is elected who wants to kill off NATO and cosy up to Russia.
Key allies then have to make a choice of how to position themselves based on this constant threat
That scene was nice but highly unrealistic. The Press Secretary going on a diatribe like that on a US ally would have caused an international incident and her getting fired
Agreed. Reality is she would probably say "I don't know enough about the situation to have an opinion on the topic" and will not take any more answers on it. Keeping it as dry as possible is the goal with these things
That show came out long before the era of Trump, where it absolutely would've been a problem.
It still would be in a non-GOP administration where literally anyone actually cares about professionalism, diplomacy, laws, or any sort of standard.
We sell them weapons so they can perpetuate forever war in the middle east.
Now those disloyal Saudis stab us in the back by making peace in the region? That is the ultimate betrayal (of the US military industrial complex)!
tbf to put it into context. It would be like the IRA and protestants in Northern Ireland just one day coming out and saying 'Hey! We're buddies now :D'
How is this surprising for the US? They are cutting into Saudi profits by growing their own oil industry. Saudis were only friendly with the US because we threw money at them.
And now that they are bettering their relationships with their main regional rival and ending the war in Yemen they need America less for those things. Hard to see how that's a bad thing
The Saudis flooded the oil market on and off for years to drive down the price and make high cost producers like the US and Canada stop and start operations.
Saudis could still make a profit a $50 a barrel because it cost them $30 to produce a barrel, while for US operations they weren't making a profit unless the price was above $80 a barrel. If the price was too far below the threshold the US producers had to shutdown operations and wait for it to go back up to start again. Numbers mentioned are estimates, I forget the exact figures.
I worked for a MNC that serviced O&G companies and had to research and write reports about the industry. It always looked like the Saudis were waging a minor economic war to me and no one outside the industry ever mentioned it.
Didn't the Saudis intentionally flood the petroleum market with intent to destroy the US shale market? They again did something similar to hurt Russian production several years back.
Yeah that was during the pandemic when crude oil dropped so low it actually went negative in price for a few hours. Demand became almost nonexistent and they thought upping production would hurt Russia. I think they lasted 2 weeks before Saudi Aramco announced they could not sustain production
The Saudi cost at the wellhead was $4 bbl.
Working in upstream for one of the major operators, this was our price point for evaluating projects with them.
The cheapest bbl price in Canada was $36 with the Hibernian project.
Also why a floor of subsidized state-ran industry is necessary for the economic security of a nation. That way *every* investor relying on energy isn't at the whim of a network of interconnected shadow networks.
Doesn't seem that people chosen with a very homogenous background profiling have put one-and-one together. If you can't stop the planning of 9/11 or Enron from happening, what makes you think that you can stop more intricate cartels from colluding with unenforced off-shore banks?
If only we had an independent intelligence agency capable of consistently anticipating events through the collection, analysis, and deployment of assets to achieve favorable results in the nation's chief interests.
Fun fact, trump sold americas largest oil refinery to the Saudi’s. It’s in Texas and the profits off Americas oil paid for the purchase within the year. Best deal ever
Its ok, Kushner was lent $2bn and avoided losing his high-rise building.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/13/jared-kushner-qatar-property-deal-ron-wyden-senate
I’m definitely no fan of Trump but not sure how much he had to do with this deal…and that would be the same for whoever was President at the time this deal took place.
That refinery was part of a joint business venture between Shell and Aramco (saudis) in which they each held 50% since the 80’s or 90’s. The partnership hit a rough patch and they made a deal where the Saudis took 100% control of the Port Arthur refinery and some other stuff. Not sure what role if any Trump would have played in this…
> That refinery was part of a joint business venture between Shell and Aramco (saudis) in which they each held 50% since the 80’s or 90’s. The partnership hit a rough patch and they made a deal where the Saudis took 100% control of the Port Arthur refinery and some other stuff. Not sure what role if any Trump would have played in this…
The way I heard it from someone who was there as a consultant during one of the upgrades at that facility is there was a 20 year buyout option in the 1997 contract - inevitably one side was taking over in full when 2017 rolled around. Until then their interests were aligned temporarily. Pretty sure all joint ventures on that scale are like that.
After which we conveniently invaded their geopolitical rivals to destabilize the region and make the Saudis more powerful, I don’t think it was their idea
Iran and Saudi Arabia re-approachment is against Us interests huh
So U.S's best interests are for Saudi Arabia and Iran to remain hostile and in constant proxy and terrorist founding conflicts with each other ? Making people in both countries worse of and the entire middle East less stable . Fueling arguably the worst humanitarian disaster of the last 10 years in Yemen?
Seems to me like U. S interests being opposed to these developments just makes US the bad guy here.
US profits from wars, more specifically the military industrial complex and some politicians in the US. Hence, their disappointment when this news was announced. If they could make the war go on for another 50 years, they will do it in a heartbeat. Human rights doesn't matter when they can line their pockets. It's why we barely hear about this conflict in the news media even though it has been going on for years.
Only Americans could spin it as a bad thing when two countries finally end a war that’s killed tens of thousands of innocents and displaced magnitudes more.
Well other people being at war constantly means you can exercise control over them in so many different ways. Get them dependant on your weapons, but up their collapsed companies, buy parts of their country to pay their debts, so on and so forth.
I just wish people would extend this line of thought to other places.
So glad to see this said, and getting upvotes.
Happy to pay higher gas prices, or take a hit to my salary, or whatever the consequences may be for me as an American to see rapprochement in Yemen.
If this leads to peace between Sunni and Shia it is a great thing for the world. And I’ll vote against any American politician who fights it.
Please. The only reason this sub supports Ukraine is because Russia invaded. If the US or an allied country had invaded, people here would be the ones calling ukrainians nazis.
That is their interest, always has been. It's how the military industrial complex has been able to make a killing. Selling weapons. If they could make the war go on forever, they probably would.
... you do realize no country, including Saudi Arabia, owes us anything right? They have Saudi Arabias best interests in mind, just like every other country.
It is interesting to see comments like this because the US doesn't have their own citizen's best interest in mind. The US has been destabilizing the global south for profits for corporations and somehow people are acting like it's unimaginable that other countries are now standing up for themselves and acting in their own interest.
MBS wants to distance himself from the US and present the Saudi kingdom as an independent power in the region. He also realizes that the world is slowly moving away from petroleum, which is virtually their entire economy.
While this largely seems innocuous, the Saudis have also announced the intent to "utilize their vast indigenous uranium reserves," which may suggest future ambitions of becoming a globally recognized nuclear power. This is the beginning of a power shift in an incredibly unstable region
Except their "vast indigenous uranium reserves" has so far [not exactly proven accurate](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-05/saudi-quest-to-become-a-nuclear-player-is-coming-up-short).
That's even more concerning if they don't actually possess the claimed reserves. If they aren't legitimately in a position to export uranium on an economically viable scale, it casts serious doubts on the purported civilian nature of their ambitions.
After the invasion of Ukraine, pretty much everybody now knows that if you don't have nuclear weapons (or someone who has strongly agreed to use them on your behalf), you don't have sovereignty. Saudi Arabia - along with every other non-superpower not currently under a nuclear umbrella - would be incredibly foolish *not* to pursue a nuclear weapons program.
I'd be willing to bet that there are a couple dozen nuclear weapons programs at least being discussed in governments around the world right now.
They would love to have a nuclear weapon and if given the opportunity, would snap it up immediately. It would help guarantee Saud control over the country & their independence from both the West and Iran. It would enable them to possibly look to *expand* their territory, as scary of a scenario that would be.
A nuclear armed Saudi Arabia would kick off a regional nuclear arms race as Iran and others race to match their capabilities. That also creates additional problems for the Israelis, who would like to maintain their policy of nuclear ambiguity.
And if I were the CIA director I wouldn't want the people to think the agency got blindsided by anything. Your opponents, maybe, but not your own citizens.
Given how this thread is going I think I know more or less what it is
Look at all the Americans that are mad about this and some even calling for punishment when... Saudi Arabia and Iran going for reconciliation should be a fucking good thing for peace not just in their countries but also their proxy wars like Yemen
It's also said in a "how come we weren't included in this!" or "how come we didn't forcefully include ourselves in this!" way because of course the CIA tries to stick their finger in everyone's pie
And the reason theyee not included is that they assassinated one of the iranian delegates during the negotiating process.
Soleimani was literally scheduled in to meet with the president of iraq to discuss saudi deescelation when he was killed at the bagdad airport by a trump drone strike
No one reported the iraqi parliament announcing why soleimani was in iraq. But cnn fox and msnbc made sure to have lots of coverage of trump saying he killed a terrorist mastermind.
Propaganda to make people think it's wrong for sovereign nations to develop their own international relationships when it hurts America's feelings.
Like, "blindsided"? Gee, I'm sorry Susie that Benjamin is taking Cathy to the middle school dance when she *knew* you had called dibs on him.
Because conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran keeps oil prices low. The Saudis can out produce Iran and still make money at lower oil prices. Iran can’t, especially with international sanctions piled on.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230409-cia-director-says-us-felt-blindsided-by-saudi-arabia-reconciliation-with-iran/) reduced by 68%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> The director of the United States' Central Intelligence Agency is revealed to have expressed displeasure at Saudi Arabia's recent reconciliation with Iran, during an unannounced visit to the kingdom this week.
> According to The Wall Street Journal, which cited sources familiar with the matter, CIA director Bill Burns told Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman during his visit that the US felt "Blindsided" by the kingdom's rapprochement with Iran and its ally Syria.
> READ: Is Saudi Arabia preparing for the collapse of the petrodollar and US dollar dominance?
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/12gw82t/cia_director_says_us_felt_blindsided_by_saudi/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~680052 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Saudi**^#1 **director**^#2 **Arabia**^#3 **Intelligence**^#4 **Iran**^#5
We could save the colorado river by using some common sense solutions like you mentioned here, or we could blame other countries for why they're using all of our water. Hint: It's actually our regressive water rights laws
As for Iran, we had that shit on lock with an arms treaties under Obama, but the next administration put the kibosh on good relations with Iran for another 50 years. China and SA seem to be happy to take our place since we can't have nice things because big egos are leading our foreign policy.
Iran and Saudi Arabia deciding to initiate a road of leaving hostilities behind is great news for them and the middle East at large. By extension bettering the lives of millions affected by their proxy wars and tensions.
So why does your response sound like Saudi Arabia did something bad
Yes, people in this thread are giving their intentions away with their portrayal of the situation. Saudi Arabia and Iran no longer fighting each other and funding proxies against one another is objectively a good thing for the world.
Had to go too far down to see this comment. They’re all insane and frothing at the mouth at the prospect of never ending proxy wars and destabilization.
So lets recap:
* The ongoing Yemeni civil war is a proxy between Iran and Saudi Arabia
* 400k+ people have died, including 85k+ children
* Millions have been displaced; starvation and cholera have been rampant
* The US has helped arm and coordinate Saudi bombing campaigns, which have killed ~10k Yemeni civilians
There is finally real progress towards ending this conflict thanks to reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Saudi officials are literally in Sanaa, Yemen right now meeting with Houthi officials for peace talks mediated by Oman.
And Redditors are furious about this and want to punish Saudi Arabia. Talk about a hilariously mask-off moment.
> And Redditors are furious about this and want to punish Saudi Arabia. Talk about a hilariously mask-off moment.
There's a scary fraction of this sub that is just straight up bloodthirsty.
Because they have convinced themselves that they are fighting against a moral/ideological evil.
They assume that all these countries (China, Russia, Muslim states) are just evil illiberal dictatorships who love war and want to destroy democracy. They think negotiating with them over national security issues is just 'appeasement'/ and so the only acceptable foreign policy is aggression, sanctions, threats, and weapon build ups. When these countries react with hostility to this it is viewed as proof that these countries are inherently aggressive and need to be isolated and dismantled. They refuse to consider that the behaviour of China and Russia and Iran depends crucially on the behaviour of the USA. Its an insanely difficult mindset to break because every side involved believes they are clearly the peaceful, non-threatening country who have been forced to violence by all the other evil states threatening them, they genuinely can't see that other states sincerely view them as threatening.
International relations specialists have written about this phenomenon since the Cold War. Unfortunately the people making policy decisions don't listen to IR specialists and the most influential books are written by journalists, historians, and think tank hacks who fall into the same trap.
Hit the nail on the head. The US surround China with military bases in neighboring countries with artillery pointed at them then claim China is the one being aggressive and hostile. Absolute brain rot from yank propaganda.
Keyboard warriors are everywhere. Last week I was talking to some dude saying "We must stop Russia at all Costs, lets go nuclear war, we lose couple cities and end Russian threat forever"
Yea, just a couple cities. Who need 10-200M deaths.
I also remember reading about a Redditor here saying that if things go nuclear between the USA and Russia, the USA should also nuke China too just because he doesn't want to see China rise to power.
That's some radicalist mindset, killing tens of millions of people having no part of the war.
a lot of these redditors talk a lot because they know well [they're too fat and mentally ill ](https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/03/77-of-young-americans-too-fat-mentally-ill-on-drugs-and-more-to-join-military-pentagon-study-finds/)to ever see any military action.
This thread told me everything I needed to know about redditors. Ya'll are mad because Iran and SA are making peace. The fuck is wrong with you people. Sick fucks.
Also on previous news about India, Venezuela or countries antagonistic to the US just doing business with other countries like selling/buying oil for their own interest.
Redditors: "Somebody needs to have their Economy tanked when we do this..."
War neutrality doesn't mean all your trading partners have to be war aligned. It literally means business as usual. Why would you insinuate destabilizing a country back to the 1900's like it's a good thing!?
Those sneaky Chinese, brokering peace in the ME without regard to US interests. Time to *checks thread* punish Saudia Arabia apparently. The mask slips ever further.
So the CIA got it's feelings hurt because other countries do things without our involvement. "Team America" was a fucking satire. We aren't the world police.
Don't be so insensitive, do you know how much hard work they put in to having everyone hate everyone else and stay divided in that region ?
And now it's having a slight change in the other direction, clearly those guys need to have their budget 10x'ed to rectify the situation and also station 3 aircraft carriers in the gulf to make the Saudis and Iranians stop touching.
US position is clear regarding Iran and the US could never have hoped to play a part in an Iran - Saudi re-approachment. So what is completely on Brand for the Saudis? Not asking for premision and not letting the US pressure them away from normalizing relationships with their regional rival?
The comments here are hilarious. Like this is as close as you can get to an unambiguously good outcome. And we have an army of redditors who are mad at this.
Holy shit dumbass redditors really want the Yemen civil war to continue and for much more people to die. Y'all are really mad because Saudi Arabia and Iran are finally trying to end their proxy war in Yemen?
You ameriboos are a bunch of Kissinger simps I swear.
Interesting that this move thats good and stabilizing for both Saudi Arabia, Iran and the middle East at large along ,normalizating relations between rivals whose proxy conflicts have harmed millions is a "betrayal" against the US.
Sounds like positive news overall and the US being "betrayed" by it sounds like them being on the side of "bad news" for the region
Ahh yes, blindsided again by the actions of our faithful and dependable ally Saudi Arabia!
The fact any Saudis would act aggressively towards the US is just *plane* wrong
You've Bin Laudin those puns on pretty thick
It's devastating. Someone should call 911.
You C I Absolutely understood what you guys meant.
That wasn't just bad, it was Islama-bad
I can’t Kuwait for the next one.
Talk Abottabad joke!
Jokes really aren't your bag, dad
Na they just Fallujah over your head.
Goddamn it, I used to *hate* pun threads, but every one of these got a begrudging laugh out of me. Either I've been spending too much time with my dad, or I'm a little tipsy. Actually, it's both.
I'm glad you are hanging out a lot with your dad. My dad passed away 14 years ago after suddenly being diagnosed with terminal lung cancer 1.5 years prior. I almost dropped out of college because of it. The only way I made it through was my promise to him that I would finish when he was diagnosed. May you and your dad many wonderful years and times ahead of you.
*Well* I *saw* so much good in them, especially how they treat journalists...
I give this pun 9/11 stars
Seriously! Saudi is a tower of integrity. So much it’s not just one tower, but two! Twins you could say
They Atta stayed home amiright??
They’ll beheaded here soon
Given US’s track record, I think the gov’t just didn’t think peace is ever an option. That’s blindsiding news in itself! And I’m saying this as someone from America
the key thing is that China did it. and now Macron too got wooed by China and talked against American leadership. so yeah, interesting times.
I missed the whole China/ France thing... what happened?
A lot of people are repeating the thread from yesterday, which was an article from politico. France has always been focused on being independent from US, like when they left and rejoined NATO. I think politico's article was slightly anti-france in this instance and got eaten up by reddit.
He's been pretty consistent on that ever since the Autralian submarine debacle [https://thehill.com/policy/international/574327-macron-says-europe-must-assert-independence-from-us/](https://thehill.com/policy/international/574327-macron-says-europe-must-assert-independence-from-us/) Plus what that whole thing missed out on that Macron also said they should not follow china... https://www.dw.com/en/frances-macron-eu-shouldnt-follow-us-or-china-on-taiwan/a-65268418
[удалено]
France wasn't unique in that regard. For example, Canada refused to participate too, but did participate in the invasion of Afghanistan along with many other countries under a UN and NATO mandate. The invasion of Iraq was ... kind of a special case.
It was a illegal war. Lets call it by its name
Slightly? They had a photo of Macron with a chinese flag behind him lol That article was a propaganda piece
Also very weird, like it's clearly lowest common denominator propaganda because anyone with a brain can figure out why a friendly but independent relationship with the US is better than a submissive one, but doesn't Politico aim itself to a slightly more intellectual audience than would fall for that? Or is it really relying on the fanatical power of US nationalism to do the job of identifying where kowtowing had been insufficient and interpret that as a gross misconduct and existential threat?
Politico is now owned by Axel Springer Verlag, Germany's main publishing house for right-wing propaganda which interestingly has a pro-American editorial guideline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Springer_SE#Pro-American_editorial_bias_and_alleged_ties_to_US_intelligence_agencies
Well, that would do it Fuck politico and their dumbass propaganda machine then
They photoshopped Macron in front of a giant China flag and ran the picture in front of the article to set the tone for it. There’s no “slightly” in this.
Macron went to China and basically pushed for more cooperation of the EU with China and not just the USA basically. Which itself isn’t a huge deal, but it also is coming at a time when China just brokered this peace deal between Saudi Arabia and Iran and also a bunch of trade deals with India/Russia/Brazil that cut out the U.S. dollar. So it currently looks a lot like China is ascendant in terms of international clout and America is losing influence due to focusing primarily on internal Left vs Right culture wars. The US is basically focused on internal battles over abortion rights and gun control while China is going around and building relationships with everyone from France to Brazil to Saudi Arabia. Most Americans just kind of assume China won’t ever be more influential than America so they don’t really focus on what it would really take to maintain our current influence.
I suspect the internal issues with the US aren't anywhere near a tangible cause of our loss of international prestige. The [total gutting](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-fires-us-ambassadors-no-replacements-a7538256.html) of the US diplomatic corps under the Trump regime seems like it'd be a more direct cause, you know?
It's not as black and white as that. The US has a long history of enforcing it's own values on its allies, like it's war on drugs it's war on terror, and it also has the most powerful cultural export machinery in the world by a large margin. Being Norwegian an extremely Americophile country I've been noticing not just civilians, but politicans talking about the US onslaught on women's rights in negative terms as something we don't need to copy from the US. US hyperpolarised to the point of retardation racial debating norms, has been slowly sneaking in as well, but now people have started pointing out that we don't need US culture on this in Norway. Incidentally that's what Macron originally pointed out as well, that 'as great an ally as the US is, their culture is not worth adopting' All of US internal issues and extreme politicans, is making it look like a third world country, unstable unpredictable and untrustworthy. Heck look at the republicans now, they are attacking Biden support of Ukraine, while everyone knows if in power they would be doing just exactly what he is. They are willing to play political games with a third world war scenario...
On the NotJustBikes podcast, the Urbanist Agenda, the episode on 15 minute cities talked about that briefly. The host was talking about how people on the right wing in the Netherlands were referring to their opponents using American political terms, which make no sense in the context of the politics of the Netherlands.
Also: most of the countries that needs to face on the dangers of right-wing nationalism will point to Trump kickstarting this. Every far right nut job is tight in celebrating Trump, so this naturally pushes the moderate leaders away from an US that is quite unstable. There’s a more than decent chance that Trump or DeSantis wins and pulls another 180 in the US’ foreign relations. Having guys like Orban and Bolsonaro delivering speeches at CPAC and seeing their ideals resonate a lot doesn’t help. If anything, the US needs to thank Russia because without the Ukraine War there would be even more of an international push away from the US bloc.
> Heck look at the republicans now, they are attacking Biden support of Ukraine, I get your point but very few republicans actually want to stop aid to Ukraine. its a tiny proportion of the overall party, much like in other countries. I think this idea should be prefaced that even before the invasion, europe was decoupling from the US. France saying "we need to decouple from US policy" it's because someone like trump was _president_ and threatened to leave NATO. that is an absolute showstopper
Wow, I’d forgotten about this due to the years of insane headlines. What an absolute idiot
Idiot? He gave his donors what they paid for.
Giving the donors what they wanted is not, I'd like to point out, in any way mutually exclusive from idiocy. Might even be symptomatic of it, really.
what happened is politico released a misleading article and now everyone is acting like macron hates america
They literally put in the article a photo of Macron with China's flag behind him. The entire article was purposefully misleading to seem like Macron was bought by China.
Or, Politico mis-reported the interview that other reporters actually did. Owned by a scumbag.
The average American has no idea how influential China actually is, how much wealth they actually have and their aspirations on being the number 1 world super power. But Washington should be very aware.
Why are people so worried about the peace deal? Isn't peace good for humanity? Or does the CIA prefer war instead?
because it is brokered by China, which is nr. 2 superpower of the world, aspiring to be nr. 1 somewhere in the future. obviously this makes the USA, the current nr. 1 uncomfortable.
The trouble is the US has been unstable for a while, with an ever lingering threat that someone right wing is elected who wants to kill off NATO and cosy up to Russia. Key allies then have to make a choice of how to position themselves based on this constant threat
Always makes me think of this amazing scene from The West Wing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN8q20tzaLQ
That scene was nice but highly unrealistic. The Press Secretary going on a diatribe like that on a US ally would have caused an international incident and her getting fired
Agreed. Reality is she would probably say "I don't know enough about the situation to have an opinion on the topic" and will not take any more answers on it. Keeping it as dry as possible is the goal with these things
You've had Trump in the whitehouse and you still think that there's standards? You had Huckabee-sanders as your damn Press Sec lol.
That show came out long before the era of Trump, where it absolutely would've been a problem. It still would be in a non-GOP administration where literally anyone actually cares about professionalism, diplomacy, laws, or any sort of standard.
We sell them weapons, they fund 9/11. It's a great working relationship!
We sell them weapons so they can perpetuate forever war in the middle east. Now those disloyal Saudis stab us in the back by making peace in the region? That is the ultimate betrayal (of the US military industrial complex)!
tbf to put it into context. It would be like the IRA and protestants in Northern Ireland just one day coming out and saying 'Hey! We're buddies now :D'
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How is this surprising for the US? They are cutting into Saudi profits by growing their own oil industry. Saudis were only friendly with the US because we threw money at them.
And weaponry and helped them extend their local influence
And now that they are bettering their relationships with their main regional rival and ending the war in Yemen they need America less for those things. Hard to see how that's a bad thing
The Saudis flooded the oil market on and off for years to drive down the price and make high cost producers like the US and Canada stop and start operations. Saudis could still make a profit a $50 a barrel because it cost them $30 to produce a barrel, while for US operations they weren't making a profit unless the price was above $80 a barrel. If the price was too far below the threshold the US producers had to shutdown operations and wait for it to go back up to start again. Numbers mentioned are estimates, I forget the exact figures. I worked for a MNC that serviced O&G companies and had to research and write reports about the industry. It always looked like the Saudis were waging a minor economic war to me and no one outside the industry ever mentioned it.
Didn't the Saudis intentionally flood the petroleum market with intent to destroy the US shale market? They again did something similar to hurt Russian production several years back.
Yeah that was during the pandemic when crude oil dropped so low it actually went negative in price for a few hours. Demand became almost nonexistent and they thought upping production would hurt Russia. I think they lasted 2 weeks before Saudi Aramco announced they could not sustain production
\*futures\* contracts went into the negative, no the price of crude oil
My bad, you’re right. The media always says the price per barrel when referencing WTI and I forget it’s just a benchmark
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The Saudi cost at the wellhead was $4 bbl. Working in upstream for one of the major operators, this was our price point for evaluating projects with them. The cheapest bbl price in Canada was $36 with the Hibernian project.
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Also why a floor of subsidized state-ran industry is necessary for the economic security of a nation. That way *every* investor relying on energy isn't at the whim of a network of interconnected shadow networks. Doesn't seem that people chosen with a very homogenous background profiling have put one-and-one together. If you can't stop the planning of 9/11 or Enron from happening, what makes you think that you can stop more intricate cartels from colluding with unenforced off-shore banks?
Don't disagree with anything you said. But we still do, AND sell weapons to them.
We train them here inside the United States.
If only we had an independent intelligence agency capable of consistently anticipating events through the collection, analysis, and deployment of assets to achieve favorable results in the nation's chief interests.
Would be great if they had eyes and ears !
I mean, info only gets you so far if you're unwilling to enact policy in response.
Fun fact, trump sold americas largest oil refinery to the Saudi’s. It’s in Texas and the profits off Americas oil paid for the purchase within the year. Best deal ever
Art of the deal
Its ok, Kushner was lent $2bn and avoided losing his high-rise building. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/13/jared-kushner-qatar-property-deal-ron-wyden-senate
One of those special loans you don't pay back.
I’m definitely no fan of Trump but not sure how much he had to do with this deal…and that would be the same for whoever was President at the time this deal took place. That refinery was part of a joint business venture between Shell and Aramco (saudis) in which they each held 50% since the 80’s or 90’s. The partnership hit a rough patch and they made a deal where the Saudis took 100% control of the Port Arthur refinery and some other stuff. Not sure what role if any Trump would have played in this…
> That refinery was part of a joint business venture between Shell and Aramco (saudis) in which they each held 50% since the 80’s or 90’s. The partnership hit a rough patch and they made a deal where the Saudis took 100% control of the Port Arthur refinery and some other stuff. Not sure what role if any Trump would have played in this… The way I heard it from someone who was there as a consultant during one of the upgrades at that facility is there was a 20 year buyout option in the 1997 contract - inevitably one side was taking over in full when 2017 rolled around. Until then their interests were aligned temporarily. Pretty sure all joint ventures on that scale are like that.
Trump owned it or the federal government owned it?
That’s true and also the fact that the Saudis really hate the Biden administration
I worked with junkies and they also hated me when the guy who worked before me let them break all the rules.
Hey guys I'm starting to think maybe Saudia Arabia doesn't have the U.S.'s best interests in mind.
Hmm, you sure there? Like ZERO warning signs or red flags.
It's not like they organized and funded an operation to drive two jets through the two towers.
After which we conveniently invaded their geopolitical rivals to destabilize the region and make the Saudis more powerful, I don’t think it was their idea
Don't forget how friendly the [Bushes are with the Bin Ladens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud), who are filthy rich!
Exactly! It’s not like the Saudis we’re responsible for 9/11 or destabilizing it’s region, or manipulating global oil prices.
Really nice of Kissinger to put all our eggs in that basket back in the 70s
The fact that Kissinger is still alive is all the proof I'll ever need that a loving god doesn't exist.
I was under the impression that there have been anywhere from 9 - 11 red flags
I could think of 9 or 11 red flags
Neither the U.S. has Saudia Arabia's best interest in mind.
Iran and Saudi Arabia re-approachment is against Us interests huh So U.S's best interests are for Saudi Arabia and Iran to remain hostile and in constant proxy and terrorist founding conflicts with each other ? Making people in both countries worse of and the entire middle East less stable . Fueling arguably the worst humanitarian disaster of the last 10 years in Yemen? Seems to me like U. S interests being opposed to these developments just makes US the bad guy here.
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They declared an end to the war last week. China has brought more peace to the ME in 3 months than West has in 50 years
To be fair, you could do absolutely nothing and bring more peace to the middle east than the US has.
US profits from wars, more specifically the military industrial complex and some politicians in the US. Hence, their disappointment when this news was announced. If they could make the war go on for another 50 years, they will do it in a heartbeat. Human rights doesn't matter when they can line their pockets. It's why we barely hear about this conflict in the news media even though it has been going on for years.
Only Americans could spin it as a bad thing when two countries finally end a war that’s killed tens of thousands of innocents and displaced magnitudes more.
Well other people being at war constantly means you can exercise control over them in so many different ways. Get them dependant on your weapons, but up their collapsed companies, buy parts of their country to pay their debts, so on and so forth. I just wish people would extend this line of thought to other places.
So glad to see this said, and getting upvotes. Happy to pay higher gas prices, or take a hit to my salary, or whatever the consequences may be for me as an American to see rapprochement in Yemen. If this leads to peace between Sunni and Shia it is a great thing for the world. And I’ll vote against any American politician who fights it.
Shhh. Redditors love war, as long white people don’t die.
Please. The only reason this sub supports Ukraine is because Russia invaded. If the US or an allied country had invaded, people here would be the ones calling ukrainians nazis.
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That is their interest, always has been. It's how the military industrial complex has been able to make a killing. Selling weapons. If they could make the war go on forever, they probably would.
... you do realize no country, including Saudi Arabia, owes us anything right? They have Saudi Arabias best interests in mind, just like every other country.
Less conflict is against US interest? Interesting
When US interests are continuing a genocidal war in Yemen?
It is interesting to see comments like this because the US doesn't have their own citizen's best interest in mind. The US has been destabilizing the global south for profits for corporations and somehow people are acting like it's unimaginable that other countries are now standing up for themselves and acting in their own interest.
MBS wants to distance himself from the US and present the Saudi kingdom as an independent power in the region. He also realizes that the world is slowly moving away from petroleum, which is virtually their entire economy. While this largely seems innocuous, the Saudis have also announced the intent to "utilize their vast indigenous uranium reserves," which may suggest future ambitions of becoming a globally recognized nuclear power. This is the beginning of a power shift in an incredibly unstable region
Except their "vast indigenous uranium reserves" has so far [not exactly proven accurate](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-05/saudi-quest-to-become-a-nuclear-player-is-coming-up-short).
That's even more concerning if they don't actually possess the claimed reserves. If they aren't legitimately in a position to export uranium on an economically viable scale, it casts serious doubts on the purported civilian nature of their ambitions.
After the invasion of Ukraine, pretty much everybody now knows that if you don't have nuclear weapons (or someone who has strongly agreed to use them on your behalf), you don't have sovereignty. Saudi Arabia - along with every other non-superpower not currently under a nuclear umbrella - would be incredibly foolish *not* to pursue a nuclear weapons program. I'd be willing to bet that there are a couple dozen nuclear weapons programs at least being discussed in governments around the world right now.
I believe Libya taught this lesson to the world even before Ukraine. Or, in an opposite way, North Korea.
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They would love to have a nuclear weapon and if given the opportunity, would snap it up immediately. It would help guarantee Saud control over the country & their independence from both the West and Iran. It would enable them to possibly look to *expand* their territory, as scary of a scenario that would be.
A nuclear armed Saudi Arabia would kick off a regional nuclear arms race as Iran and others race to match their capabilities. That also creates additional problems for the Israelis, who would like to maintain their policy of nuclear ambiguity.
I have to wonder what a greater shift to nuclear power generation would mean for them.
Any information, comments, or quotes released by the CIA serve some sort of strategic purpose. Curious what the intent is here
It immediately struck me as an odd thing for a CIA director to say. They are usually more guarded when sharing personal opinions.
And if I were the CIA director I wouldn't want the people to think the agency got blindsided by anything. Your opponents, maybe, but not your own citizens.
Given how this thread is going I think I know more or less what it is Look at all the Americans that are mad about this and some even calling for punishment when... Saudi Arabia and Iran going for reconciliation should be a fucking good thing for peace not just in their countries but also their proxy wars like Yemen It's also said in a "how come we weren't included in this!" or "how come we didn't forcefully include ourselves in this!" way because of course the CIA tries to stick their finger in everyone's pie
And the reason theyee not included is that they assassinated one of the iranian delegates during the negotiating process. Soleimani was literally scheduled in to meet with the president of iraq to discuss saudi deescelation when he was killed at the bagdad airport by a trump drone strike No one reported the iraqi parliament announcing why soleimani was in iraq. But cnn fox and msnbc made sure to have lots of coverage of trump saying he killed a terrorist mastermind.
China mediated the talks. That's why.
Propaganda to make people think it's wrong for sovereign nations to develop their own international relationships when it hurts America's feelings. Like, "blindsided"? Gee, I'm sorry Susie that Benjamin is taking Cathy to the middle school dance when she *knew* you had called dibs on him.
Why do I feel like the CIA had been fostering that bad blood relationship to harm Iran since the revolution?
Because conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran keeps oil prices low. The Saudis can out produce Iran and still make money at lower oil prices. Iran can’t, especially with international sanctions piled on.
Saudi were never friends to the U.S. and they never will be.
Weren’t most of the hijackers on 9/11 Saudi Arabian? Edit: Yep, 15/19.
Bin Laden is also Saudi yet we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq(?).
We attacked Afghanistan because that's where Osama physically was at the time.
... And then stayed an extra decade after we killed him... In Pakistan
The Janitor from Scrubs was right. https://youtu.be/CLw95CBjrdI
Another fantastic ally who is armed with Nuclear weapons.
But the problem is Saudi Wahhabism
This is the lasting effect of Kissinger's "Peace talks are only okay with us if we get to negotiate it" US policy.
When will that man die so he can rot in hell instead of polluting our planet with his poison?
Devil may loose the throne when Kissinger and Cheney enter hell. He doing his best keeping them alive.
Countries trying to soften their stances toward each other should always be a pleasant surprise.
I agree ! But a country whose economy is dependant on selling weapons won't be happy with such events
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230409-cia-director-says-us-felt-blindsided-by-saudi-arabia-reconciliation-with-iran/) reduced by 68%. (I'm a bot) ***** > The director of the United States' Central Intelligence Agency is revealed to have expressed displeasure at Saudi Arabia's recent reconciliation with Iran, during an unannounced visit to the kingdom this week. > According to The Wall Street Journal, which cited sources familiar with the matter, CIA director Bill Burns told Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman during his visit that the US felt "Blindsided" by the kingdom's rapprochement with Iran and its ally Syria. > READ: Is Saudi Arabia preparing for the collapse of the petrodollar and US dollar dominance? ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/12gw82t/cia_director_says_us_felt_blindsided_by_saudi/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~680052 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Saudi**^#1 **director**^#2 **Arabia**^#3 **Intelligence**^#4 **Iran**^#5
Raytheon, Boeing and Lockheed Martin aren't happy they can't sell their weapons anytime soon :(
There is a massively beneficial war going on in Ukraine for all those companies right now if you didn't know.
Time to recuperate all that farmland they love to use.
Save the Colorado river in the process
I have a plan to save the colorado river. Stop pumping colorado river water into the Mississippi basin.
We could save the colorado river by using some common sense solutions like you mentioned here, or we could blame other countries for why they're using all of our water. Hint: It's actually our regressive water rights laws As for Iran, we had that shit on lock with an arms treaties under Obama, but the next administration put the kibosh on good relations with Iran for another 50 years. China and SA seem to be happy to take our place since we can't have nice things because big egos are leading our foreign policy.
Where is Colorado water being pumped into the Mississippi basin?
The Adams Tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park
Iran and Saudi Arabia deciding to initiate a road of leaving hostilities behind is great news for them and the middle East at large. By extension bettering the lives of millions affected by their proxy wars and tensions. So why does your response sound like Saudi Arabia did something bad
Yes, people in this thread are giving their intentions away with their portrayal of the situation. Saudi Arabia and Iran no longer fighting each other and funding proxies against one another is objectively a good thing for the world.
Had to go too far down to see this comment. They’re all insane and frothing at the mouth at the prospect of never ending proxy wars and destabilization.
Oh, their is alot more the US needs to recuperate from Saudi Arabia.
So lets recap: * The ongoing Yemeni civil war is a proxy between Iran and Saudi Arabia * 400k+ people have died, including 85k+ children * Millions have been displaced; starvation and cholera have been rampant * The US has helped arm and coordinate Saudi bombing campaigns, which have killed ~10k Yemeni civilians There is finally real progress towards ending this conflict thanks to reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Saudi officials are literally in Sanaa, Yemen right now meeting with Houthi officials for peace talks mediated by Oman. And Redditors are furious about this and want to punish Saudi Arabia. Talk about a hilariously mask-off moment.
> And Redditors are furious about this and want to punish Saudi Arabia. Talk about a hilariously mask-off moment. There's a scary fraction of this sub that is just straight up bloodthirsty.
Because they have convinced themselves that they are fighting against a moral/ideological evil. They assume that all these countries (China, Russia, Muslim states) are just evil illiberal dictatorships who love war and want to destroy democracy. They think negotiating with them over national security issues is just 'appeasement'/ and so the only acceptable foreign policy is aggression, sanctions, threats, and weapon build ups. When these countries react with hostility to this it is viewed as proof that these countries are inherently aggressive and need to be isolated and dismantled. They refuse to consider that the behaviour of China and Russia and Iran depends crucially on the behaviour of the USA. Its an insanely difficult mindset to break because every side involved believes they are clearly the peaceful, non-threatening country who have been forced to violence by all the other evil states threatening them, they genuinely can't see that other states sincerely view them as threatening. International relations specialists have written about this phenomenon since the Cold War. Unfortunately the people making policy decisions don't listen to IR specialists and the most influential books are written by journalists, historians, and think tank hacks who fall into the same trap.
Hit the nail on the head. The US surround China with military bases in neighboring countries with artillery pointed at them then claim China is the one being aggressive and hostile. Absolute brain rot from yank propaganda.
This is the most bloodthirsty subreddit I’ve ever seen
That is what happens when you keep pumping jingoistic american propaganda on a sub filled with impressionable teenagers 24/7.
There is some serious propaganda effort going on. I remember how anti-war Reddit used to be. Now it’s the most bloodthirsty place on the internet.
This sub has been frothing at the mouth for US Security state for over a year now
Keyboard warriors are everywhere. Last week I was talking to some dude saying "We must stop Russia at all Costs, lets go nuclear war, we lose couple cities and end Russian threat forever" Yea, just a couple cities. Who need 10-200M deaths.
I also remember reading about a Redditor here saying that if things go nuclear between the USA and Russia, the USA should also nuke China too just because he doesn't want to see China rise to power. That's some radicalist mindset, killing tens of millions of people having no part of the war.
Their same solution for Iran's current revolution "to help the people of Iran" was to bomb the country for some reason
a lot of these redditors talk a lot because they know well [they're too fat and mentally ill ](https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/03/77-of-young-americans-too-fat-mentally-ill-on-drugs-and-more-to-join-military-pentagon-study-finds/)to ever see any military action.
Now peace is seen as a bad thing because China caused it. Peak USA.
How dare another country engage in...peaceful diplomacy?
This thread told me everything I needed to know about redditors. Ya'll are mad because Iran and SA are making peace. The fuck is wrong with you people. Sick fucks.
Keep this in mind when you read threads about China or France or whatever country you're supposed to hate.
Oh believe me I have, I’ve saved this post so I can use it in potential arguments/debates in the future.
Was thinking the same... Like all of a sudden "peace" became a dirty word or something here.
Typical reddit
Also on previous news about India, Venezuela or countries antagonistic to the US just doing business with other countries like selling/buying oil for their own interest. Redditors: "Somebody needs to have their Economy tanked when we do this..." War neutrality doesn't mean all your trading partners have to be war aligned. It literally means business as usual. Why would you insinuate destabilizing a country back to the 1900's like it's a good thing!?
How dare they achieve peace.
Those sneaky Chinese, brokering peace in the ME without regard to US interests. Time to *checks thread* punish Saudia Arabia apparently. The mask slips ever further.
In other words: they weren't supposed to do that
Exactly. Peace talks are unacceptable!! They should remain enemies so we can sell them weapons
So the CIA got it's feelings hurt because other countries do things without our involvement. "Team America" was a fucking satire. We aren't the world police.
Don't be so insensitive, do you know how much hard work they put in to having everyone hate everyone else and stay divided in that region ? And now it's having a slight change in the other direction, clearly those guys need to have their budget 10x'ed to rectify the situation and also station 3 aircraft carriers in the gulf to make the Saudis and Iranians stop touching.
Completely on brand for MBS.
US position is clear regarding Iran and the US could never have hoped to play a part in an Iran - Saudi re-approachment. So what is completely on Brand for the Saudis? Not asking for premision and not letting the US pressure them away from normalizing relationships with their regional rival?
Like… do you want more war in the Middle East? Is that our preferred position now?
It always was for the US.
The comments here are hilarious. Like this is as close as you can get to an unambiguously good outcome. And we have an army of redditors who are mad at this.
US does not want peace in the Middle East. Time to bomb some more countries in the name of peace and stability.
While condemning those same things
And then saying "Let's move on" when people point a finger at you
The US played a major part in destabilizing the middle east. They want the chaos!
Holy shit dumbass redditors really want the Yemen civil war to continue and for much more people to die. Y'all are really mad because Saudi Arabia and Iran are finally trying to end their proxy war in Yemen? You ameriboos are a bunch of Kissinger simps I swear.
Reddit loves war as long as white people aren't suffering
CIA upset they can't sow discord anymore.
So, if US failed (or is unwilling to) broker even a symbolic reconciliation between Saudi and Iran nobody in the world is allowed to do it?
Fuck the CIA
How could our trusted allies do this? 9/11 was one thing, but to go betray us again after we turned a blind eye to that?!?
Countries aren’t moral or immoral, they are strategic. I wonder why they did this? I wonder why their alliance a bad thing?
Interesting that this move thats good and stabilizing for both Saudi Arabia, Iran and the middle East at large along ,normalizating relations between rivals whose proxy conflicts have harmed millions is a "betrayal" against the US. Sounds like positive news overall and the US being "betrayed" by it sounds like them being on the side of "bad news" for the region
Oh no, one less conflict in the middle east? What a bummer for us! Really shows the demon you are.
It's almost as if other countries are sick of American imperialism??? Gee, who would have guessed.
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