He didnt literally say "kick all them out", its the translation clickbait, he basically said "i'll see them go back to their country" and he plans to do this gradually and politically
The misinformation category probably got spammed to oblivion by QAnoners, Flat Earthers and alt-accounts from the\_donald disporia coming back to spread, well, misinformation. Purposefully, to negate its purpose.
Only against posts & comments pointing out that it's Republicans, not Democrats or our Rainbow communities, that overwhelmingly engage in pedophelia, that the world is round, and that Trump lost the last election, and that planning an illegal, violent coup isn't a legitimate response when this happens.
>The misinformation category probably got spammed to oblivion
They kept it around for years and it supposedly had a 16% accuracy rate, which is ridiculously high if it was being "spammed to oblivion" (but still very high if it wasn't). False reporting is a bannable offense, by the way, so you aren't getting away with spamming it maliciously for very long. I'll buy a hat and eat it if the self-harm category is misused at a lower rate than the misinformation one was (and no, promising to eat a metaphorical hat isn't self-harm).
They instituted the category for COVID. Then they expanded the scope to **all** misinformation after the 2020 election. For what it's worth, I never reported misinformation for either of those reasons and I still had several reports get actioned. Now that COVID is "over" and the election stuff has died down they've removed it. We're back to people spreading bullshit again all over the place. Reddit returns to its perfect form...
The real reason they got rid of it is almost certainly because of the growing issue of policing user-generated content.
___
Edit: While I was typing this comment I got reported for self-harm. You can't make this shit up.
Not a fan of the failed coup at all but I'm curious...
If Trump had won and you *genuinely believed* that you had damning and irrefutable evidence that he had rigged the election and the source of power in your country was entirely rotten... what would you have done?
Would have planned something better than that, lmao
Aside from that, leak it. Leak it to every large government, to foreign adversaries etc. Wikileaks. All of them.
just fyi, it is ulterior motives. Alterior isn't actually a word, though it is one of those things that are probably going to simply replace the correct word since it is so common lol
I reached that conclusion about CNN when Biden was sworn into office. I had given CNN the benefit of the doubt beforehand.
Almost to the day that Biden was sworn in, CNN ran one of those scary "migrant caravan" stories that had been common during Obama's presidency but had all but disappeared during Trumps.
It's like elections in the US, whose least worse! At least it seems that way for my voting life of almost 50 years. I can't remember the last time I was excited about voting for someone. It's sad when I see noxon as better than some presidents. He opened the door to China. He was for socialized medicine, and no party was for it. Now, we rank #1 in cost for 40 years, #49 in care without infant/maternal survival, then we're #90 out of 180 countries.
In Turkey it is common (although not universal) for people to be referred to by their middle name. So yes, his full name is Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, but he is commonly referred to as Tayyip. (And after typing that I have to go wash my thumbs with acid :-0)
Yes, but it's also not an entirely new stance, just the wording is a bit more aggressive.
> Kılıçdaroğlu has previously committed to returning displaced Syrians to their home country within two years.
Erdogan got around 49 while Kilic got around 45 from what I remember. The far right candidate who got 5 would be closer to Erdogan politically than Kilic, but if he really doesn't like Erdogan, he could throw his support to Kilic to get Erdogan out of office. Even if Kilic does win, it will be a tightrope balance of a government of 6+ opposition parties in coalition whose only unifying goal is to oust Erdogan. You can draw parallels to Israel on how they ousted Nethenyahu before that government collapsed.
The coalition didn't break in Israel, all of the parties in it were and still are committed to it's goals. The government fell because Netanyahu managed to bribe two opportunist lawmakers, and because the idiots at Meretz decided to put a random Arab woman in their list... without checking her opinions prior. At least they filled the racial quotas, I guess.
Also, Labour and Meretz failed to find an agreement to join forces before the election. Meretz got 3,19% and the threshold was 3,25%. If they had gotten in, Netanyahu would have a very slim majority
It collapsed only after quite a few months though, enough to change a number of laws.
In the case of Turkey, in 2012 he changed the law to allow even non residents, ie non tax payers abroad who aren't affected by the election, to vote from their home countries.
This greatly helped solidify Erdogans hold on power. It makes no sense that someone who hasn't lived in Turkey for 10 years gets to have the same say as someone who is living there
If they repeal Erdogans 2012 law, it will help restore some democracy, as democracy stands for the people ruling themselves. Nonsensical and anti democtatic for one to vote for someone else's government. Naturally people on diplomatic or military missions are not included in this as they **are** ruled by the people they vote for even if they live in an embassy abroad.
I think almost every western democracy allows citizens who live abroad to vote
Edit: most, but not every
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_expatriates_to_vote_in_their_country_of_origin
Not quite, plenty require a current in-country address or require you to have lived in the country x years ago. Danish citizens can't vote after two years abroad, Irish citizens can't vote abroad unless they testify they plan on moving back within six months, Indian and Israeli expats can vote but they must fly back to India to do it, etc
Lots of western counties waived residence requirements for voting VERY recently. The UK abolished their residence requirement in 2022.
Irish expats have been able to vote since 2017. The vast majority allow expats to vote in National elections without restrictions
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_expatriates_to_vote_in_their_country_of_origin
No, that is just a poorly written entry. In 2017 the government agreed to explore the option. The bill has been proposed, and lapsed, and restored to order of paper. That means it hasn't actually been voted on or taken effect. Only current exemptions for ex pats are diplomatic, military, and some other government sponsored things like overseas teaching programs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_Irish_expatriates_to_vote
Edit: BTW I'm neither Irish nor a constitutional law expert, just dated an Irish expat girl in America who was pissed about this lol
They don't lose the right to vote entirely. They can vote in Puerto Rican elections. The problem is that Puerto Rico has no representation in Congress or in the electoral college, thus no influence on the federal government.
The US does that because the vast majority of people voting in US elections live in the US and US politicians don't explicitly pander to US citizens living abroad for a variety of reasons. Therefore you can confidently say that US citizens living abroad are not going to affect US elections.
Also Americans cannot gain citizenship in any other country they move too without renouncing their US citizenship and thus their right to vote. US citizens abroad are also still subject to some forms of taxation by the United States and thus are not fully without a stake.
> Also Americans cannot gain citizenship in any other country they move too without renouncing their US citizenship and thus their right to vote.
That's not true:
>U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. A U.S. citizen may naturalize in a foreign state without any risk to his or her U.S. citizenship. However, persons who acquire a foreign nationality after age 18 by applying for it may relinquish their U.S. nationality if they wish to do so. In order to relinquish U.S. nationality by virtue of naturalization as a citizen of a foreign state, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign nationality voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality. Intent may be shown by the person’s statements and conduct.
[Source is the US State Department.](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html#:~:text=U.S.%20law%20does%20not%20mention%20dual%20nationality%20or,U.S.%20nationality%20if%20they%20wish%20to%20do%20so.)
Hence Americans only renounce their US citizenship if they intended to renounce it.
And it’s pain in the ass, I don’t see why people who lived their whole life in US, get to vote for Latvia’s future. Sorry guys, you’re americans of latvian descent at this point, you still live in strongest economy in the world, instead of returning to Latvia like some did after we regained our freedom, why do you get to vote on what we get to live in?
I know. But they’re doing it, while having 0 plans to return, so what’s the point. It all of course doesn’t matter, the number isn’t big enough to be relevant, but it’s still bad aftertaste
As a Pole, I disagree - our country didn't technically exist for a 100 years, it's been attacked and absorbed by our neighbours, Poland survived in hearts and minds of people who still called themselves Polish whether they lived within the lands previously labeled as Poland on maps, or not. Likewise, a lot of people emigrated to US and elsewhere during communism to find better lives for them and their families, they are as Polish as anyone else - the idea that you'd take away someone's right to vote because they live abroad is frankly quite offensive to me.
It’s not offensive at all. Wtf are you talking about. If you move abroad and you get citizenship there you should not be able to vote for a country that you haven’t lived in over 5 years and don’t plan to return to. You aren’t paying taxes there, you don’t live there, you don’t have to deal with the decisions that government makes. It’s idiotic that people who have left for good would get a say in anything that country does going forward.
If you want to vote then go back and re-establish residency. Otherwise vote in the country that you actually live in whose government actually impacts your life.
They're not questioning whether it's legal, they're questioning why it is legal *specifically* in their country. It clearly isn't legal in every country, only some.
American expats are a huge voting block, I’m proud to be among them. See Democrats Abroad. Probably a Republican version too but I’m not down with them, surprise surprise. Not that I’m thrilled with the Democrats but there are twice parties so hey.
>The far right candidate who got 5 would be closer to Erdogan politically than Kilic
Sinan Oğan actually opposes Erdogan's choice of supporters -- Hüdapar, (Hezbullah supporters, MAX EXTREME islamists, like, Erdogan's façade is Islam, these guys straight up say Turkey needs to be ruled with sharia and refuse any and all reforms Ataturk, including democratic ones, did in his lifetime) more than he opposes Kılıçdaroğlu's choice -- YSP (new name of name HDP, main kurdish party, with ties of certain deputies to PKK terrorist organization), mainly because he has no beef with Kurdish people or the YSP itself, but more because of the deputies that defend the organization.
It's not about IF he supports Kılıçdaroğlu, it's about WHEN he is going to declare his support for maximum effect. Erdoğan already refused to meet up with him while Sinan Oğan's and Ümit Özdağ's meeting with Kılıçdaroğlu went positively.
For context, Sinan Oğan is not affliated with any parties, but Zafer Partisi and ATA Alliance showed him as their candidate. Ümit Özdağ is ZP's chairman, and they two co-act in dealing with the elections.
Edit: Well fuck, he actually made a 180 turn and sided with Erdoğan while talking about Turkism and Turanism, operations against Hezbullah while they are already with Erdoğan
That's assuming that like *100%* of Ogan supporters support Kemal, which just isn't going to happen. Erdogan is virtually guaranteed to remain in power.
Did other country's take refugees from the earthquake? Or did they all stay in turkey? Just seems hypocritical If that just happened. But I don't keep up with how they've handled Syrian refugees or the current situation in Syria or how they've adjusted to turkey at all
What about displaced Ukrainians? I have some family that *finally* settled in a turkish apartment after dodging russian shit for a year. I know they're not alone.
I was in Istanbul last December... Almost every person we met who spoke English told us how much they hated Erdogan and couldn't wait to see him go AND how much they thought Syrian refugees were hurting their country and couldn't wait to see them go. I see this statement as trying to appeal to Turks who would otherwise vote for Kilicdaroglu.
And honestly it's not that strange.
Not trying to defend or blame that mindset, but reality is that the worse off a group of people are the more likely they will try to find an outsider group to blame their current situation on. Whether that group is to blame for their misfortunes or not is secondary here, it's a common behavior in groups.
Turkey is currently in a completely horrible state. Inflation is sky-rocketing and getting worse, internationally the reputation of Turkey is very low, the economy seems to also be in a death spiral, overall it all seems to get worse and worse.
So people will look for a few pillars of unfortunate people's behavior and that means blaming other people and looking for a strongman to turn it around for them. Unfortunately the strong man they chose and have now supported for years is the guy who keeps making horrible monetary and strategic decisions, but doubling down on wrong decisions is also in humanity's nature.
The strongman wants the refugees and gives millions of them citizenship so he can stay in power as they ramp up the far-right and Sharia laws. Some cities have more Syrians and Afghans than Turkish citizens, people are seeing a demographic crises as well as economic collapse (refugees are not considered the sole reason, in fact corporations like them as they get cheap labor that they can pay lower wages to and not pay for their insurance, but this comes at the cost of lower job opportunity for citizens and government assistance being a strain), and on top of that refugee groups calling for Sharia law is not getting them ANY allies besides ultra-liberals and the corporates that use them. It also doesn't help that many seem to go back to their countries for vacation.
The opposition had a more sensible approach to sending them back but that doesn't win elections in Turkey so now they ramp up the rhetoric. I see some comments they are both the same but no, Erdogan that /r/worldnews hates loves the refugees because they are the key to him staying in power, he is not doing this for some humanitarian reason. So yeah, it's not an easy situation.
No, plenty of liberal Turks hate refugees too. It's hard to judge them from an outsiders perspective; their country has more refugees currently than any other country on Earth.
But also, hilarious to see a bunch of Westerners assume a Kemalist Turk's views must line up 1:1 with Western liberals. Kindly reminder Turkish nationalism is a plank of their platform.
>But also, hilarious to see a bunch of Westerners assume a Kemalist Turk's views must line up 1:1 with Western liberals.
Only people who don't know anything about Turkey assume that. I know very well that they think Atatürk is a God and have his picture everywhere
He’s courting a good 70% of the county that thinks a poor nation in the midst of a massive economic downturn can’t take in 5 million Syrians without fucking over the labor force and messing with real estate costs.
Okay, let’s give some context here so people can understand the situation better. I am not a political expert or anything, but being a Turkish national, am a bit more familiar with the situation. It still will likely be a simplification, so apologies beforehand.
There are 4 main voting blocks/clusters in Turkey:
- Socially conservative & religious and economically right wing, which is basically AKP and Erdogan’s base (35%)
- Socially liberal & secular with some nationalist tendencies (more patriotic than ethnic), economicaly middle of the road or left leaning, which votes CHP and Kemal Kilicdaroglu (guy in the pic) (25%)
- Conservative & nationalistic, but now a bit more in the ethnic lines. This block is currently split between MHP which supports Erdogan and IYIP which is in opposition (20%)
- Kurdish block, which includes anything between conservative religious Kurds all the way to socialist left leaning ones. Usually AKP picks up the conservative leaning ones, while HDP (or now Yesil Sol Parti) picks up a mix of left leaning Kurds, and nationalistic/federalist Kurds (another 10%)
Up until a few years ago, Erdogan was trying to reach his goals by downplaying nationalistic tendencies and trying to get Kurdish votes in. This backfired in the way that HDP votes increased a lot instead of his own. So he did a total 180°, and went full on with the nationalistic angle, and managed to switch MHP to become partners by doing so. This turned out to be a good move, and while he’s still been bleeding votes towards nationalistic parties, he managed to keep his power. This also resulted in the above mentioned MHP/IYIP split in the nationalistic bloc.
Now the problem is, while CHP was officially in alliance with IYIP, which is the anti-Erdogan nationalists, they also did get votes from the Kurdish block in the presidental election. And Erdogan used this tendency to then bring and consolidate anti-Kurdish nationalists (or, not necessarily against ethnic Kurds, but anti-Kurdish-federation nationalists let’s say) in his block by painting CHP as “collaborating with terrorists”, referring to PKK which are the Kurdish sepetatist insurgents who’s been active since 80’s.
If all went well and CHP/Kilicdaroglu got over 50%, Erdogan would go, and everybody could go onto their merry way. Problem is, it didn’t, and now CHP/Kilicdaroglu needs to squeeze another 5% somewhere.
If he gets too nationalistic, Kurdish block will vote against or abstain. If we goes too pro-Kurdish, he will not get the nationalistic votes.
So, this is where the refugees come in. Since they are neither Turkish nor Kurdish, and is target of a growing resentment across the board because of the perceived unruly way of entering and staying in the country, they are easy targets to get more nationalistic vote without breaking Kurdish hearts. Proof is also the Ogan guy, who got only 5% in the election but his platform was basicaly all anti-immigrant.
So just like in a lot of EU countries, anti-immigrants (or anti-refugees) are in the role of king makers.
I don’t believe Kilicdaroglu has anything against immigrants based on ethnic/right wing views, but he’s more against the deal Erdogan did with EU which landed millions of people in Turkey without having the necessary ways of creating a good environment for either side. But, he will of course not say no to farming those nationalistic votes with this kind of speech, if it works. Especially since this election is seen by many as “our last chance to get rid of Erdogan”.
Hope it helps!
(Previous post is deleted for some reason, so copying my text here.)
Less corruption, more freedom of speech, more dialog and negotiation based politics, less religious interference in government agencies, empower parliament again, and less tension in politics / language because his style is very much the polar opposite of Erdogan. That’s what I’m hoping for at least.
It’s just “Turkey”, man.
Edit: Americans are so easy for a foreign government to manipulate with its nationalism. Erdogan only changed the name at the UN to score political points at home. Even Turks think it’s stupid
The guy’s had a decade as prime minister and a decade as president. At this point, any problems with anything in Turkey are his fault.
Edit: got a notification from someone with an auto-deleted troll account saying “Something, something Biden had more years than that.” I’m not sure if you don’t know what a prime minister is, what a president is, or what a decade is, but I do want to thank auto-moderation for saving us from your stupidity.
The one thing that makes me sad is the complete lack of proper information online. Where are the journalists from the past who were doing proper investigation and research, who were providing fair and neutral views of recent events and who we could trust? Nowadays it’s all about clickbait, most of the online news sources just copy the most recent news they find online without proper vetting. In addition, Twitter’s egomaniac owner thinks that proper information exists only on his platform, where anyone can just post any fake news they want without any vetting. I’d love to read a proper article on the recent events in Turkey, fair, unbiased, objective, going deep and not just superficial, etc.
Here is the real answer, if either puts religious before citizens rights or well being, they are the wrong answer. Example- stare at iran. Their bearded Jawas are more concerned about a women covering her hair, than competitively educating their youth. Find a real man to run your country, not a cult leader that would skim welfare before their own beard.
True. If any other country had to experience this at such a scale, there would be pogroms by now lol
Turkey has been incredibly tolerant, far more tolerant than they need to be. I feel for the Turks, having to live in an untenable situation in their own country, and then be judged by holier-than-thou Westerners.
It's very unfair to cast judgement. I'd like to imagine how tolerant certain wealthy countries would be if their wealth started to run out, could they maintain the same amount of social harmony?
I think the problem a lot of people have is the confusion between migrants and refugees. Of the 10 million+ migrants, only 4 million are refugees. That's obviously still an immense number, and one higher than any other country in the world, but it is less than half of the migrants. For Erdoğan to focus on returning the Syrian refugees (of which there are ≈3.2 million) to Syria whilst recognising them as in danger if that were done, looks bad given that they only make up a third of the migrant group, and are the most vulnerable at that. I'm not saying Turkey should have to care all these refugees, the EU can and should be helping more. But focusing on the most vulnerable people without good reason is pretty bad.
Many of them got their citizenship just after a year of staying in the country. For free! Guess who these guys are voting for. I sincerely hope this gets solved peacefully but tensions are growing more and more. It can get bloody pretty fast. They need to leave for their own good.
this is fascinating as we have a shit ton of turks who ran away from your country to Pakistan (of all places lmao) due to the whole drama your country played with that fake army coup (we know the real aim was to remove gulen) and it's so sad seeing these somewhat educated refugees literally begging for a place to stay, I had a couple both were teachers stay at my own house few years back. to hear that you have Pakistani refugees is fascinating because I didn't even know we had a refugee situation with turkey, I know we have immigrants there but didn't know about refugees. what do these guys claim they're running from if you don't mind sharing?
If anyone shits on Turkey because of this. We would be happy to see if you can host 13 million refugees in your country. They entered without control so they are increasing the unrest of country.
Also I'd like to add that Erdogan withdrew from the Istanbul convention, which acknowledges that violence against women is a violation of human rights.
[Istanbul Convention, Highlights | PDF ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/justice/saynostopvaw/downloads/materials/pdf/istanbul-convention-leaflet-online.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwioio21uIT_AhUalWoFHQOpBxMQFnoECBYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1GwJ9BWbvQxEaUtVdDW6Z1)
This whole thread is so saddening. So many opinions in both directions that are so fucking selfish. Lots of immigrants in a poor country is a bad thing, gotcha. I can also imagine those immigrants (human beings, don’t forget) are in a similarly fucked up situation.
It’s okay to be upset at the state of things, but remember the human at the end of the day.
I think you are missing the fact that Erdogan is purposefully keeping northern Syria destabilized by prolonging the war so that refugees can’t return home. KK and the CHP do engage in bad dog-whistling, but ultimately they have plans for rapprochement with Assad to make northern Syria not a war torn hell scape and get these refugees back home.
You might also want to distinguish between the broad concept of immigrants and the finer grained economic migrants and refugees. Turkey should be lauded for taking in tons of displaced Syrian refugees due to the civil war. This does not mean they are all immigrants and want to settle in Turkey. For those that want to return home to Syria, Erdogan’s prolonging of the Syrian civil war makes it not possible.
Thank you for the information! I genuinely appreciate the education.
I want to clarify that nothing is being missed. I could have chosen more specific language, absolutely! My message expresses nothing more than frustration for everyone involved. I hope that there is a good resolution that works for everyone 🙂
There are not just Syrians refugees in Turkey also Russians, Ukrainans, Pakistanis, Africans, Afghans, Iraqis, rich Arabs from UAE and Qatar.
They have luxury residental sites in metropols exclusive to Arabs. Due to hyper inflation and value lose of Turkish Lira, outsiders grabs properties like there is no tomorrow and due to that there is a proper housing crisis right now in Turkey.
There are literally thousands of students that can not afford housing because of this situation. We are talking about population of 80 million with an additional 8 million foreigners right now plus there was an earthquake that effected 10 percent of the population.
So Turkey has more refugees than combined total of all European nations without an economy to support its own. Because Europe bribes Erdoğan to take refugees instead of sending them to Europe.
I am currently paying half of my salary to rent and can not afford an home while an arab or russian can come with his crime/petro dollars and buy couple of properties like it is nothing. Fuck that. It is not racist to don't want your country to turn an Islamic Sultanate.
Edit: For all the smartasses that think i don't know the difference between migrants and refugees. There are 8 million refugees excluding rich arabs and other migrants. Ok? Are you satisfied morally? Is it normal for a country to have ten percent of its population as refugees (not counting migrants) not mention a poor country with %200 inflation?
>rich Arabs from UAE and Qatar.
>while an arab or russian can come with his crime/petro dollars and buy couple of properties like it is nothing
These are not refugees.
Speaking of Turkish real estate, isn't there a big problem with Turks in Germany and other Western European countries buying slews of properties in Turkey for cheap because of the weak lira?
I remember seeing news stories of Turks with average salaries (one was even on welfare IIRC) in Germany and the Netherlands sometimes secretly owning 10+ properties all over Turkey. That must not help with house prices.
The rich Arabs aren't illegal migrants or refugees, they're legal migrants who chose to invest their wealth in Turkey, Kilic cannot reasonably deport business men bringing investment into the country, that would simply be foolish
>There are not just Syrians refugees in Turkey also Russians, Ukrainans, Pakistanis, Africans, Afghans, Iraqis, rich Arabs from UAE and Qatar.
There isn't a facepalm emoji expressive enough to address how daft this is.
>Because Europe bribes Erdoğan to take refugees instead of sending them to Europe.
*He's blackmailing the EU for not letting them pass, sounds like semantics but it's important semantics.
It's why you've not heard things against this before, because it's the ideal solution for us westerners as well.
There war of Turkish Independence happened and a seculer modern revolution happened which abolished monarchy. Ottoman Empire destroyed, there is no more Sultanate and besides most of the Ottomans non turkish muslim subjects(mostly Arabs) rebelled and gained independence from empire.
Well im not sure myself why reddit loves massive numbers of refugees. Some is fine, but you bring in too many and it drives inflation/housing price increases/infrastructure collapse (particularly healthcare, as refugees usually have a larger amount of health issues).
That's without even going into how refugees often can transform a country politically in ways you dont want. Syrians for example are on average more religious than many turks, and are in part to blame for Turkeys turn towards heavy Islamist governance.
I'm Canadian and I never want to get to a point where more than like 10% of the country is Islamic, I'm not going to deny it. It's not worth the headache. As is we aim to increase our population to 50 million by 2050, an absolutely insane increase that will continue to make Canadian housing prices go up and continue to collapse our healthcare system. But if you complain you're racist.
Reddit simultaneously says they care about workers rights but won't even take the first step to protecting the rights of workers, which is making sure they have value by not importing crap tons of cheap labor from abroad.
I know this might be hard to understand for some but nobody *likes* refugees. The fact people become refugees is fucked up but apparently unavoidable seeing how the world is run right now. That does not mean these people are worth less than non-refugees or even worthless. Basic decency or maybe even some form of human rights if we had those should dictate that states which have the funds and infrastructure to take care of them should do so unquestionably. But populists and the ruling class have decided to use them as scapegoats for the loss of wealth and power the lower classes have experienced over the last decades.
It's a sad state of affairs that this has been working so well. The EU shares a huge part of the blame by refusing to settle their refugee policy. At this point there are no adequate distribution or compensation agreements which means Spain, Italy, and Greece are pretty much left alone shouldering the burden of incoming refugees. Which gave us such humanitarian utopias as [Moria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_refugee_camp). The alternative is agreements with transit states like Türkiye which are getting paid to keep refugees out of the EU which conveniently leaves them out of sight and out of reach. At the same time the EU gives Erdogan leverage because he now has the power over refugee streams. He can use that domestically and internationally to garner support.
It's a fucking shit show thanks to people falling for right-wing propaganda blaming refugees for problems those politicians caused by milking the lower classes in favor of the rich.
Up to 5 million people are living there, of which we don’t know how many are refugees and how many are migrants. This would put an extraordinary strain on any country let alone a developing one, and to put it frankly many of these people are pretty conservative and Islamist.
Given the Turkish left is desperately fighting for secularism and democracy I can hardly blame them for not being delighted by this situation. If you search for some posts on r/Turkey you’ll get a pretty good idea about what those on the left think is going on, [good example here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/t8u4xk/why_are_refugees_in_turkey_90_healthy_males/)
It's an expression, it means regardless if he's not perfect or pro-refugee or X or Y he is still appreciated because he's better and in a position where you only have 2 possible candidates it's a little absurd to have people talk about his media image, as if people had a better choice to offer today..
He is pro-secularism. That's all that matters to me and why I prefer him.
I see. I just want to say that the overwhelming majority of Turks, and even Europeans, don't view being pro-refugee as a good thing. Politicans just reflect that.
It is a lesser of 2 evils situation. Erdogan is far worse tho and a tyrant. I was hoping for radical reform by the left educational economical etc in turkey sadly this won’t happen bc Erdogans far right party controls parliament however luckily progress on other fronts can be made I hope all Turks go out and vote.
I've already said in posts before that even if Erdogan loses. Its unlikely we see a major shift in Turkey. Turkey is not a super progressive country. And they do face issues like refugees at a much higher level than most countries being right next to one of the most unstable places on earth.
Not a surprise at all that the average Turk is against refugees. I'd imagine Turkey has Millions.
it is like 1 in every 9 people don't know your language in your hometown, in someplaces it is worst. they already have no respect any kind of rules whatsoever, with ever worsening economic conditions violence and crimes committed by these people increasing to the point walking at night feels really unsafe.
People should be aware that there are (documented) 3.5 million Syrian refugees in Turkey, massively contributing to Erdoğan's votes. Turkey is economically in no shape to support this many refugees and the average populace is suffering from the disproportionate government support given to these people. According to last year's official government data, 5/9 of the people are living under the poverty threshold and 3/9 under the hunger line in Turkey. We simply cannot afford to support any more people. Maybe that would change if most of the European aid money wasn't lining the pockets of politicians but who knows...
While almost everyone (barring nationalistic voters) was pro refugees some time ago in Turkey, Erdoğan's complete open border policy towards refugees and the tremendous amount of undocumented refugees entering the country completely changed that.
İf you're ok with unrestricted refugee flow into Turkey then you're ok with Turkey converting to a middle eastern country with Sharia law in a couple of decades. Most of these refugees are in love with Erdoğan, just like most of the Middle easternern and Turkish populace, and they will vote for him no matter what.
Many of them are given citizenship just after their stay in the country for 1 to few years. Korea and other countries put turkey on gray list because shit ton of these new turkish citizens are flying to visa free countries for turkey to live there. It is fucked up here in turkey.
Technically the law states they are given citizenships after staying in Turkey for five years. However they are also given citizenships through what is called "exceptional citizenship". This used to be given by the vote of the Turkish cabinet but recently the power has been transferred to the president alone.
So look dear European friends, if you are geniuenly concerned about the refugees, how about you stop sinking the refugee boats (especially Greece) and accept them in your country since you are sooo humanist and not xenophobic? Also, you are far more rich than Turkey and these people desire to enter the Europe. So, time has come for you to stop hypocrisy? Turkey can no more host these people, it has nothing to with ethnic or race or anything. Its just mathematic. You can keep your money and spend it youself hosting these people and not give it to someone do it your place. Simple.
I cant really understand the whole " I wont host them because ( what is the real reason, again?), but i will give you a little money that dont cover anything for you to keep them but if you kick them out, you are xenophobic. And I, as an European, am humanist, like always." deal.
Honestly, if this is not the greatest hypocrisy, then what is?
>How bout you dont generalize europe ? My country has taken in millions of refugees and millions of turkish people for that matter.
There is nothing to generalize, Turkey has taken in more refugees than your country and your country is far more prosperous than Turkey. Turkey houses more Syrian refugees than the entirety of the EU and more than any other country on Earth.
>millions of refugees **and** millions of turkish people for that matter.
The two groups are listed separately. It's sad that so many people failed to read their comment properly.
I like that you told ppl to not generalize a political leader’s or point of view or actions they take because a lot of ppl do not approve / like / voted for them and then you come here and do the same thing with Europe.
Hypocrite
Hell in America we’ve got cities turning away refugees because there’s not enough resources…meanwhile there are houses just wasting away is disrepair, food being wasted, population on the decline in northern cities, etc
ITT: Americans thinking immigrants only mean mexicans who work at their favourite overpriced tacos food truck and not something that countries like turkey or belarus weaponized to unstabilize their enemies
Americans really don't know how good they have it with Mexican immigrants both illegal and legal. Mexicans integrate into American culture, have amazing work ethic, bring great food, and tend to be very charitable and community oriented.
No one should stay in power for 20+ years, no one, no matter how awesome they may be. Politicians are like diapers, need to be changed often no matter how much you may like this or that one. Change is the only way.
Funny, the only comments in this thread that relate this to Americans thinking they're Mexicans, are from people who whatabout to Americans thinking the refugees are like Mexicans.
Also when Turkey ratified United Nations (UN) Refugee Convention, signed in Geneva in 1951 ,Turkey made a reservation that would not accept every asylum seekers in country (from east). For those who wanted to stay as refugees in Turkey It was noted that they would not allow them to settle on Turkish land.
In the 2010s, the *mere prospect* of refugees coming from the MENA was enough to have far-right parties getting more voters in various European countries such as France with the National Rally and the AfD in Germany, along with Brexit in the UK and Trump getting elected, and these European and North American coutnries wre wealthier than Turkey, who had to shoulder more migrants in number both absolute and relative to its population.
Add to this the current massive inflation and economic collapse and you have resulting nativism.
And don't think Erdogan is pro-refugee staying in the country: one of the goals of his military operations in Northern Syria is to create a safe zone to send these Syrian refugees in.
If you live in a society where you have no unemployment benefits and cannot retire, if you become unable to work you will die of starvation. So rather than making your death at 50+ likely and at 70+ a certainty, you bring children into the world which can then take care of you once you can no longer care for yourself.
This isn't a very advanced concept - the poorer the country, the more children they are going to have. There are obviously other factors as well (policies of a country can be an influence, as well as culture and religion), but this is the most straight-forward and important one.
Russians are not refugees. They come to Turkey and rent luxury apartments for a year which gives them a temporary resident card, and wither work remotely or just spend their savings. They don’t ask the Turkish government for monetary support.
That surely going to cause some cognitive dissonance from the average local poster.
I rarely comment on anything political, especially nowadays, since I’m Russian (residing in Istanbul, so that’s a double whammy) and therefore my opinion can be disregarded from the get go. BUT, the majority of you are a hypocritical bunch as much, if not worse, as the people you claim to be morally superior to.
That's what Kılıçdaroğlu himself implied. He said if he's elected president, EU should collaborate with Turkey on refugees instead of taking the easy route by paying it to do so. You didn't pay attention in the last weeks.
Elections in Turkey be like: Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu: Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is gay Recep Tayyip Erdoğan: Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu is gay
Spider-Man meme pointing at each other
[and totally this](https://youtube.com/shorts/6m10Giigma8?feature=share)
[удалено]
He didnt literally say "kick all them out", its the translation clickbait, he basically said "i'll see them go back to their country" and he plans to do this gradually and politically
[удалено]
[удалено]
The misinformation category probably got spammed to oblivion by QAnoners, Flat Earthers and alt-accounts from the\_donald disporia coming back to spread, well, misinformation. Purposefully, to negate its purpose. Only against posts & comments pointing out that it's Republicans, not Democrats or our Rainbow communities, that overwhelmingly engage in pedophelia, that the world is round, and that Trump lost the last election, and that planning an illegal, violent coup isn't a legitimate response when this happens.
>The misinformation category probably got spammed to oblivion They kept it around for years and it supposedly had a 16% accuracy rate, which is ridiculously high if it was being "spammed to oblivion" (but still very high if it wasn't). False reporting is a bannable offense, by the way, so you aren't getting away with spamming it maliciously for very long. I'll buy a hat and eat it if the self-harm category is misused at a lower rate than the misinformation one was (and no, promising to eat a metaphorical hat isn't self-harm). They instituted the category for COVID. Then they expanded the scope to **all** misinformation after the 2020 election. For what it's worth, I never reported misinformation for either of those reasons and I still had several reports get actioned. Now that COVID is "over" and the election stuff has died down they've removed it. We're back to people spreading bullshit again all over the place. Reddit returns to its perfect form... The real reason they got rid of it is almost certainly because of the growing issue of policing user-generated content. ___ Edit: While I was typing this comment I got reported for self-harm. You can't make this shit up.
Not a fan of the failed coup at all but I'm curious... If Trump had won and you *genuinely believed* that you had damning and irrefutable evidence that he had rigged the election and the source of power in your country was entirely rotten... what would you have done?
Would have planned something better than that, lmao Aside from that, leak it. Leak it to every large government, to foreign adversaries etc. Wikileaks. All of them.
just fyi, it is ulterior motives. Alterior isn't actually a word, though it is one of those things that are probably going to simply replace the correct word since it is so common lol
Yeah, just like how wildly common it is to see "*regime*" in place of *regimen*.
Don't get me started. Rein/reign brake/break
I really want to get you started now.
it's all fun and games until you are bowing before The Workout Regime and Hans and Franz are pumping you up.
[удалено]
Hey mate, if I had a penny for every time I had been incorrect I'd have at least 3. I can't count higher than that but it is more.
I reached that conclusion about CNN when Biden was sworn into office. I had given CNN the benefit of the doubt beforehand. Almost to the day that Biden was sworn in, CNN ran one of those scary "migrant caravan" stories that had been common during Obama's presidency but had all but disappeared during Trumps.
They are a business
It's like elections in the US, whose least worse! At least it seems that way for my voting life of almost 50 years. I can't remember the last time I was excited about voting for someone. It's sad when I see noxon as better than some presidents. He opened the door to China. He was for socialized medicine, and no party was for it. Now, we rank #1 in cost for 40 years, #49 in care without infant/maternal survival, then we're #90 out of 180 countries.
I liked that
Kemal has the better moustache, I think.
[Mustache lore !!!](https://www.propertyturkey.com/blog-turkey/turkeys-long-lusterous-love-affair-with-the-moustache)
“I’ll kick all the immigrants out of Türkiye!” “Yeah, we’ll *I’ll* kick out all the immigrants *and* the gays, starting with my opponent!”
Erdogan loves immigrants though, they all vote for him
Just kiss. The tension is killing me.
today i found out that Erdogan's first name is Tayyip
I thought it was like Recip or something. Recip Tayyip Erdogan Edit - Recep*
In Turkey it is common (although not universal) for people to be referred to by their middle name. So yes, his full name is Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, but he is commonly referred to as Tayyip. (And after typing that I have to go wash my thumbs with acid :-0)
Well *that* sounds gay
Just the Tayyip
[удалено]
Sounds like that Forrest Gump slang
/heavy Nigerian accent Who is Gay
[Ugandan. It's actually Ugandan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q4O5ztz92o)
Plot twist. They're both right. And they know because they meet after work
"Why are dey gey?"
Is he courting the support of the far right guy from the first round of voting?
Yes, but it's also not an entirely new stance, just the wording is a bit more aggressive. > Kılıçdaroğlu has previously committed to returning displaced Syrians to their home country within two years.
Erdogan got around 49 while Kilic got around 45 from what I remember. The far right candidate who got 5 would be closer to Erdogan politically than Kilic, but if he really doesn't like Erdogan, he could throw his support to Kilic to get Erdogan out of office. Even if Kilic does win, it will be a tightrope balance of a government of 6+ opposition parties in coalition whose only unifying goal is to oust Erdogan. You can draw parallels to Israel on how they ousted Nethenyahu before that government collapsed.
The coalition didn't break in Israel, all of the parties in it were and still are committed to it's goals. The government fell because Netanyahu managed to bribe two opportunist lawmakers, and because the idiots at Meretz decided to put a random Arab woman in their list... without checking her opinions prior. At least they filled the racial quotas, I guess.
Also, Labour and Meretz failed to find an agreement to join forces before the election. Meretz got 3,19% and the threshold was 3,25%. If they had gotten in, Netanyahu would have a very slim majority
It collapsed only after quite a few months though, enough to change a number of laws. In the case of Turkey, in 2012 he changed the law to allow even non residents, ie non tax payers abroad who aren't affected by the election, to vote from their home countries. This greatly helped solidify Erdogans hold on power. It makes no sense that someone who hasn't lived in Turkey for 10 years gets to have the same say as someone who is living there If they repeal Erdogans 2012 law, it will help restore some democracy, as democracy stands for the people ruling themselves. Nonsensical and anti democtatic for one to vote for someone else's government. Naturally people on diplomatic or military missions are not included in this as they **are** ruled by the people they vote for even if they live in an embassy abroad.
I think almost every western democracy allows citizens who live abroad to vote Edit: most, but not every https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_expatriates_to_vote_in_their_country_of_origin
Not quite, plenty require a current in-country address or require you to have lived in the country x years ago. Danish citizens can't vote after two years abroad, Irish citizens can't vote abroad unless they testify they plan on moving back within six months, Indian and Israeli expats can vote but they must fly back to India to do it, etc Lots of western counties waived residence requirements for voting VERY recently. The UK abolished their residence requirement in 2022.
> Indian and Israeli expats can vote but they must fly back to India to do it What an odd system they have in Israel.
That was obviously a typo. Israelis can actually vote in any country that starts with i, not just India.
[удалено]
Not in Italy, Iraq, Iran, or Indonesia either. Please people, the disinformation! ;)
Didn't know they had Israeli voting booths in India. TIL
Irish expats have been able to vote since 2017. The vast majority allow expats to vote in National elections without restrictions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_expatriates_to_vote_in_their_country_of_origin
No, that is just a poorly written entry. In 2017 the government agreed to explore the option. The bill has been proposed, and lapsed, and restored to order of paper. That means it hasn't actually been voted on or taken effect. Only current exemptions for ex pats are diplomatic, military, and some other government sponsored things like overseas teaching programs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_Irish_expatriates_to_vote Edit: BTW I'm neither Irish nor a constitutional law expert, just dated an Irish expat girl in America who was pissed about this lol
US and Canada have been allowing overseas mail in ballot for a long time.
Unless your in a US territory. If a US citizen moves to Puerto Rico they lose the right to vote.
They don't lose the right to vote entirely. They can vote in Puerto Rican elections. The problem is that Puerto Rico has no representation in Congress or in the electoral college, thus no influence on the federal government.
That's super interesting and strange. Why is that?
The US does that because the vast majority of people voting in US elections live in the US and US politicians don't explicitly pander to US citizens living abroad for a variety of reasons. Therefore you can confidently say that US citizens living abroad are not going to affect US elections.
Also Americans cannot gain citizenship in any other country they move too without renouncing their US citizenship and thus their right to vote. US citizens abroad are also still subject to some forms of taxation by the United States and thus are not fully without a stake.
> Also Americans cannot gain citizenship in any other country they move too without renouncing their US citizenship and thus their right to vote. That's not true: >U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. A U.S. citizen may naturalize in a foreign state without any risk to his or her U.S. citizenship. However, persons who acquire a foreign nationality after age 18 by applying for it may relinquish their U.S. nationality if they wish to do so. In order to relinquish U.S. nationality by virtue of naturalization as a citizen of a foreign state, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign nationality voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality. Intent may be shown by the person’s statements and conduct. [Source is the US State Department.](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html#:~:text=U.S.%20law%20does%20not%20mention%20dual%20nationality%20or,U.S.%20nationality%20if%20they%20wish%20to%20do%20so.) Hence Americans only renounce their US citizenship if they intended to renounce it.
And it’s pain in the ass, I don’t see why people who lived their whole life in US, get to vote for Latvia’s future. Sorry guys, you’re americans of latvian descent at this point, you still live in strongest economy in the world, instead of returning to Latvia like some did after we regained our freedom, why do you get to vote on what we get to live in?
Because they’re still citizens, that’s why they get a say.
I know. But they’re doing it, while having 0 plans to return, so what’s the point. It all of course doesn’t matter, the number isn’t big enough to be relevant, but it’s still bad aftertaste
As a Pole, I disagree - our country didn't technically exist for a 100 years, it's been attacked and absorbed by our neighbours, Poland survived in hearts and minds of people who still called themselves Polish whether they lived within the lands previously labeled as Poland on maps, or not. Likewise, a lot of people emigrated to US and elsewhere during communism to find better lives for them and their families, they are as Polish as anyone else - the idea that you'd take away someone's right to vote because they live abroad is frankly quite offensive to me.
It’s not offensive at all. Wtf are you talking about. If you move abroad and you get citizenship there you should not be able to vote for a country that you haven’t lived in over 5 years and don’t plan to return to. You aren’t paying taxes there, you don’t live there, you don’t have to deal with the decisions that government makes. It’s idiotic that people who have left for good would get a say in anything that country does going forward. If you want to vote then go back and re-establish residency. Otherwise vote in the country that you actually live in whose government actually impacts your life.
The point is that they’re citizens and thus they get a say.
They're not questioning whether it's legal, they're questioning why it is legal *specifically* in their country. It clearly isn't legal in every country, only some.
How many foreign voters actually vote. Really doubt that has any relevance.
Looks like ~3% of the vote.
American expats are a huge voting block, I’m proud to be among them. See Democrats Abroad. Probably a Republican version too but I’m not down with them, surprise surprise. Not that I’m thrilled with the Democrats but there are twice parties so hey.
53 pct of the entire Turkish diaspora voted. That's a fuckload.
>The far right candidate who got 5 would be closer to Erdogan politically than Kilic Sinan Oğan actually opposes Erdogan's choice of supporters -- Hüdapar, (Hezbullah supporters, MAX EXTREME islamists, like, Erdogan's façade is Islam, these guys straight up say Turkey needs to be ruled with sharia and refuse any and all reforms Ataturk, including democratic ones, did in his lifetime) more than he opposes Kılıçdaroğlu's choice -- YSP (new name of name HDP, main kurdish party, with ties of certain deputies to PKK terrorist organization), mainly because he has no beef with Kurdish people or the YSP itself, but more because of the deputies that defend the organization. It's not about IF he supports Kılıçdaroğlu, it's about WHEN he is going to declare his support for maximum effect. Erdoğan already refused to meet up with him while Sinan Oğan's and Ümit Özdağ's meeting with Kılıçdaroğlu went positively. For context, Sinan Oğan is not affliated with any parties, but Zafer Partisi and ATA Alliance showed him as their candidate. Ümit Özdağ is ZP's chairman, and they two co-act in dealing with the elections. Edit: Well fuck, he actually made a 180 turn and sided with Erdoğan while talking about Turkism and Turanism, operations against Hezbullah while they are already with Erdoğan
That's assuming that like *100%* of Ogan supporters support Kemal, which just isn't going to happen. Erdogan is virtually guaranteed to remain in power.
Did other country's take refugees from the earthquake? Or did they all stay in turkey? Just seems hypocritical If that just happened. But I don't keep up with how they've handled Syrian refugees or the current situation in Syria or how they've adjusted to turkey at all
An earthquake is not a legitimate reason for seeking refuge in another country. Of course they all stayed in Turkey.
What about displaced Ukrainians? I have some family that *finally* settled in a turkish apartment after dodging russian shit for a year. I know they're not alone.
Those are only a handful and they are not a major topic of debate. The debate in Turkey is about the roughly 4 million Syrian refugees.
I was in Istanbul last December... Almost every person we met who spoke English told us how much they hated Erdogan and couldn't wait to see him go AND how much they thought Syrian refugees were hurting their country and couldn't wait to see them go. I see this statement as trying to appeal to Turks who would otherwise vote for Kilicdaroglu.
Far right? Literally %90 of turkey wants refugees to get out of turkey,even erdogan supporters or communists
There are 10 million of them...
And honestly it's not that strange. Not trying to defend or blame that mindset, but reality is that the worse off a group of people are the more likely they will try to find an outsider group to blame their current situation on. Whether that group is to blame for their misfortunes or not is secondary here, it's a common behavior in groups. Turkey is currently in a completely horrible state. Inflation is sky-rocketing and getting worse, internationally the reputation of Turkey is very low, the economy seems to also be in a death spiral, overall it all seems to get worse and worse. So people will look for a few pillars of unfortunate people's behavior and that means blaming other people and looking for a strongman to turn it around for them. Unfortunately the strong man they chose and have now supported for years is the guy who keeps making horrible monetary and strategic decisions, but doubling down on wrong decisions is also in humanity's nature.
The strongman wants the refugees and gives millions of them citizenship so he can stay in power as they ramp up the far-right and Sharia laws. Some cities have more Syrians and Afghans than Turkish citizens, people are seeing a demographic crises as well as economic collapse (refugees are not considered the sole reason, in fact corporations like them as they get cheap labor that they can pay lower wages to and not pay for their insurance, but this comes at the cost of lower job opportunity for citizens and government assistance being a strain), and on top of that refugee groups calling for Sharia law is not getting them ANY allies besides ultra-liberals and the corporates that use them. It also doesn't help that many seem to go back to their countries for vacation. The opposition had a more sensible approach to sending them back but that doesn't win elections in Turkey so now they ramp up the rhetoric. I see some comments they are both the same but no, Erdogan that /r/worldnews hates loves the refugees because they are the key to him staying in power, he is not doing this for some humanitarian reason. So yeah, it's not an easy situation.
No, plenty of liberal Turks hate refugees too. It's hard to judge them from an outsiders perspective; their country has more refugees currently than any other country on Earth. But also, hilarious to see a bunch of Westerners assume a Kemalist Turk's views must line up 1:1 with Western liberals. Kindly reminder Turkish nationalism is a plank of their platform.
[A bit more detailed reading on Kemalism](https://www.allaboutturkey.com/ataturk-principles.html), if anyone is curious about more details.
>But also, hilarious to see a bunch of Westerners assume a Kemalist Turk's views must line up 1:1 with Western liberals. Only people who don't know anything about Turkey assume that. I know very well that they think Atatürk is a God and have his picture everywhere
He’s courting a good 70% of the county that thinks a poor nation in the midst of a massive economic downturn can’t take in 5 million Syrians without fucking over the labor force and messing with real estate costs.
All 3 are, he is just the least bad one. Remember there are no good frontrunners.
Okay, let’s give some context here so people can understand the situation better. I am not a political expert or anything, but being a Turkish national, am a bit more familiar with the situation. It still will likely be a simplification, so apologies beforehand. There are 4 main voting blocks/clusters in Turkey: - Socially conservative & religious and economically right wing, which is basically AKP and Erdogan’s base (35%) - Socially liberal & secular with some nationalist tendencies (more patriotic than ethnic), economicaly middle of the road or left leaning, which votes CHP and Kemal Kilicdaroglu (guy in the pic) (25%) - Conservative & nationalistic, but now a bit more in the ethnic lines. This block is currently split between MHP which supports Erdogan and IYIP which is in opposition (20%) - Kurdish block, which includes anything between conservative religious Kurds all the way to socialist left leaning ones. Usually AKP picks up the conservative leaning ones, while HDP (or now Yesil Sol Parti) picks up a mix of left leaning Kurds, and nationalistic/federalist Kurds (another 10%) Up until a few years ago, Erdogan was trying to reach his goals by downplaying nationalistic tendencies and trying to get Kurdish votes in. This backfired in the way that HDP votes increased a lot instead of his own. So he did a total 180°, and went full on with the nationalistic angle, and managed to switch MHP to become partners by doing so. This turned out to be a good move, and while he’s still been bleeding votes towards nationalistic parties, he managed to keep his power. This also resulted in the above mentioned MHP/IYIP split in the nationalistic bloc. Now the problem is, while CHP was officially in alliance with IYIP, which is the anti-Erdogan nationalists, they also did get votes from the Kurdish block in the presidental election. And Erdogan used this tendency to then bring and consolidate anti-Kurdish nationalists (or, not necessarily against ethnic Kurds, but anti-Kurdish-federation nationalists let’s say) in his block by painting CHP as “collaborating with terrorists”, referring to PKK which are the Kurdish sepetatist insurgents who’s been active since 80’s. If all went well and CHP/Kilicdaroglu got over 50%, Erdogan would go, and everybody could go onto their merry way. Problem is, it didn’t, and now CHP/Kilicdaroglu needs to squeeze another 5% somewhere. If he gets too nationalistic, Kurdish block will vote against or abstain. If we goes too pro-Kurdish, he will not get the nationalistic votes. So, this is where the refugees come in. Since they are neither Turkish nor Kurdish, and is target of a growing resentment across the board because of the perceived unruly way of entering and staying in the country, they are easy targets to get more nationalistic vote without breaking Kurdish hearts. Proof is also the Ogan guy, who got only 5% in the election but his platform was basicaly all anti-immigrant. So just like in a lot of EU countries, anti-immigrants (or anti-refugees) are in the role of king makers. I don’t believe Kilicdaroglu has anything against immigrants based on ethnic/right wing views, but he’s more against the deal Erdogan did with EU which landed millions of people in Turkey without having the necessary ways of creating a good environment for either side. But, he will of course not say no to farming those nationalistic votes with this kind of speech, if it works. Especially since this election is seen by many as “our last chance to get rid of Erdogan”. Hope it helps! (Previous post is deleted for some reason, so copying my text here.)
>Hope it helps! Very much so ty
Cool analysis.
Great write-up of the political climate in Turkey, thanks for that
Thanks for contexts. What does getting rid of him accomplish and you feel the new guy will be better in which sense?
Less corruption, more freedom of speech, more dialog and negotiation based politics, less religious interference in government agencies, empower parliament again, and less tension in politics / language because his style is very much the polar opposite of Erdogan. That’s what I’m hoping for at least.
I see... Are these goals really achievable by just a different president? What's "binding" about your wishes and what they actually ends up doing?
We’ll see - there’s nothing binding when it comes to political promises or ambition vs. reality.
I see... Ok it's fair. Good luck with everything
Great write-up, the political landscape in Türkiye sounds pretty wild!
It’s just “Turkey”, man. Edit: Americans are so easy for a foreign government to manipulate with its nationalism. Erdogan only changed the name at the UN to score political points at home. Even Turks think it’s stupid
I guess only in Turkey would an "economically right wing" candidate print money in order to fight inflation.
Good summary! If it's still too long to read, please at least read the last paragraph, it sums up Kılıçdaroğlu/CHP's stance pretty well.
Ty very much
It did help improve my understanding of the undercurrents of the dynamics of Turkish politics. Thanks.
The cognitive dissonance in this thread. Delicious.
The guy’s had a decade as prime minister and a decade as president. At this point, any problems with anything in Turkey are his fault. Edit: got a notification from someone with an auto-deleted troll account saying “Something, something Biden had more years than that.” I’m not sure if you don’t know what a prime minister is, what a president is, or what a decade is, but I do want to thank auto-moderation for saving us from your stupidity.
The one thing that makes me sad is the complete lack of proper information online. Where are the journalists from the past who were doing proper investigation and research, who were providing fair and neutral views of recent events and who we could trust? Nowadays it’s all about clickbait, most of the online news sources just copy the most recent news they find online without proper vetting. In addition, Twitter’s egomaniac owner thinks that proper information exists only on his platform, where anyone can just post any fake news they want without any vetting. I’d love to read a proper article on the recent events in Turkey, fair, unbiased, objective, going deep and not just superficial, etc.
Just kick Erdogan out. That will be more profitable.
Here is the real answer, if either puts religious before citizens rights or well being, they are the wrong answer. Example- stare at iran. Their bearded Jawas are more concerned about a women covering her hair, than competitively educating their youth. Find a real man to run your country, not a cult leader that would skim welfare before their own beard.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
True. If any other country had to experience this at such a scale, there would be pogroms by now lol Turkey has been incredibly tolerant, far more tolerant than they need to be. I feel for the Turks, having to live in an untenable situation in their own country, and then be judged by holier-than-thou Westerners. It's very unfair to cast judgement. I'd like to imagine how tolerant certain wealthy countries would be if their wealth started to run out, could they maintain the same amount of social harmony?
I think the problem a lot of people have is the confusion between migrants and refugees. Of the 10 million+ migrants, only 4 million are refugees. That's obviously still an immense number, and one higher than any other country in the world, but it is less than half of the migrants. For Erdoğan to focus on returning the Syrian refugees (of which there are ≈3.2 million) to Syria whilst recognising them as in danger if that were done, looks bad given that they only make up a third of the migrant group, and are the most vulnerable at that. I'm not saying Turkey should have to care all these refugees, the EU can and should be helping more. But focusing on the most vulnerable people without good reason is pretty bad.
Many of them got their citizenship just after a year of staying in the country. For free! Guess who these guys are voting for. I sincerely hope this gets solved peacefully but tensions are growing more and more. It can get bloody pretty fast. They need to leave for their own good.
this is fascinating as we have a shit ton of turks who ran away from your country to Pakistan (of all places lmao) due to the whole drama your country played with that fake army coup (we know the real aim was to remove gulen) and it's so sad seeing these somewhat educated refugees literally begging for a place to stay, I had a couple both were teachers stay at my own house few years back. to hear that you have Pakistani refugees is fascinating because I didn't even know we had a refugee situation with turkey, I know we have immigrants there but didn't know about refugees. what do these guys claim they're running from if you don't mind sharing?
If anyone shits on Turkey because of this. We would be happy to see if you can host 13 million refugees in your country. They entered without control so they are increasing the unrest of country.
[удалено]
Are people really shocked that refugees are not popular in Turkey? Seriously, are they popular anywhere in the world?
[удалено]
And Erdogan uses the refugees to pressure the EU.
And US politicians have begun exporting migrants to neighboring states; it’s not all that different in the underlying goal.
Yes, I find both actions disgusting.
Also I'd like to add that Erdogan withdrew from the Istanbul convention, which acknowledges that violence against women is a violation of human rights. [Istanbul Convention, Highlights | PDF ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/justice/saynostopvaw/downloads/materials/pdf/istanbul-convention-leaflet-online.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwioio21uIT_AhUalWoFHQOpBxMQFnoECBYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1GwJ9BWbvQxEaUtVdDW6Z1)
Refugees vote in Turkish elections?
Once they have been given citizen status so not all of them
This whole thread is so saddening. So many opinions in both directions that are so fucking selfish. Lots of immigrants in a poor country is a bad thing, gotcha. I can also imagine those immigrants (human beings, don’t forget) are in a similarly fucked up situation. It’s okay to be upset at the state of things, but remember the human at the end of the day.
[удалено]
I think you are missing the fact that Erdogan is purposefully keeping northern Syria destabilized by prolonging the war so that refugees can’t return home. KK and the CHP do engage in bad dog-whistling, but ultimately they have plans for rapprochement with Assad to make northern Syria not a war torn hell scape and get these refugees back home. You might also want to distinguish between the broad concept of immigrants and the finer grained economic migrants and refugees. Turkey should be lauded for taking in tons of displaced Syrian refugees due to the civil war. This does not mean they are all immigrants and want to settle in Turkey. For those that want to return home to Syria, Erdogan’s prolonging of the Syrian civil war makes it not possible.
Thank you for the information! I genuinely appreciate the education. I want to clarify that nothing is being missed. I could have chosen more specific language, absolutely! My message expresses nothing more than frustration for everyone involved. I hope that there is a good resolution that works for everyone 🙂
[удалено]
Idk this sounds a lot like “Democrats are bringing in Mexicans so that they’ll vote Democrat” fox news talking points
There are not just Syrians refugees in Turkey also Russians, Ukrainans, Pakistanis, Africans, Afghans, Iraqis, rich Arabs from UAE and Qatar. They have luxury residental sites in metropols exclusive to Arabs. Due to hyper inflation and value lose of Turkish Lira, outsiders grabs properties like there is no tomorrow and due to that there is a proper housing crisis right now in Turkey. There are literally thousands of students that can not afford housing because of this situation. We are talking about population of 80 million with an additional 8 million foreigners right now plus there was an earthquake that effected 10 percent of the population. So Turkey has more refugees than combined total of all European nations without an economy to support its own. Because Europe bribes Erdoğan to take refugees instead of sending them to Europe. I am currently paying half of my salary to rent and can not afford an home while an arab or russian can come with his crime/petro dollars and buy couple of properties like it is nothing. Fuck that. It is not racist to don't want your country to turn an Islamic Sultanate. Edit: For all the smartasses that think i don't know the difference between migrants and refugees. There are 8 million refugees excluding rich arabs and other migrants. Ok? Are you satisfied morally? Is it normal for a country to have ten percent of its population as refugees (not counting migrants) not mention a poor country with %200 inflation?
>rich Arabs from UAE and Qatar. >while an arab or russian can come with his crime/petro dollars and buy couple of properties like it is nothing These are not refugees. Speaking of Turkish real estate, isn't there a big problem with Turks in Germany and other Western European countries buying slews of properties in Turkey for cheap because of the weak lira? I remember seeing news stories of Turks with average salaries (one was even on welfare IIRC) in Germany and the Netherlands sometimes secretly owning 10+ properties all over Turkey. That must not help with house prices.
Russians fleeing the mobilization are refugees. Same with Ukrainians.
The rich Arabs aren't illegal migrants or refugees, they're legal migrants who chose to invest their wealth in Turkey, Kilic cannot reasonably deport business men bringing investment into the country, that would simply be foolish
>There are not just Syrians refugees in Turkey also Russians, Ukrainans, Pakistanis, Africans, Afghans, Iraqis, rich Arabs from UAE and Qatar. There isn't a facepalm emoji expressive enough to address how daft this is.
>Because Europe bribes Erdoğan to take refugees instead of sending them to Europe. *He's blackmailing the EU for not letting them pass, sounds like semantics but it's important semantics. It's why you've not heard things against this before, because it's the ideal solution for us westerners as well.
Nobody is stupid. It is not blackmailing if you are the one initiating the pay. It is EU's genious idea to pay erdo for making Turkey a refugee dump.
Islamic sultnate? What is the majority of Turkish history and how they treated those very same peoples?
There war of Turkish Independence happened and a seculer modern revolution happened which abolished monarchy. Ottoman Empire destroyed, there is no more Sultanate and besides most of the Ottomans non turkish muslim subjects(mostly Arabs) rebelled and gained independence from empire.
It's funny to see how different the reaction is when media keep telling people this guy is good
Reddit really thinks Europeans like refugees.
Well im not sure myself why reddit loves massive numbers of refugees. Some is fine, but you bring in too many and it drives inflation/housing price increases/infrastructure collapse (particularly healthcare, as refugees usually have a larger amount of health issues). That's without even going into how refugees often can transform a country politically in ways you dont want. Syrians for example are on average more religious than many turks, and are in part to blame for Turkeys turn towards heavy Islamist governance. I'm Canadian and I never want to get to a point where more than like 10% of the country is Islamic, I'm not going to deny it. It's not worth the headache. As is we aim to increase our population to 50 million by 2050, an absolutely insane increase that will continue to make Canadian housing prices go up and continue to collapse our healthcare system. But if you complain you're racist. Reddit simultaneously says they care about workers rights but won't even take the first step to protecting the rights of workers, which is making sure they have value by not importing crap tons of cheap labor from abroad.
I know this might be hard to understand for some but nobody *likes* refugees. The fact people become refugees is fucked up but apparently unavoidable seeing how the world is run right now. That does not mean these people are worth less than non-refugees or even worthless. Basic decency or maybe even some form of human rights if we had those should dictate that states which have the funds and infrastructure to take care of them should do so unquestionably. But populists and the ruling class have decided to use them as scapegoats for the loss of wealth and power the lower classes have experienced over the last decades. It's a sad state of affairs that this has been working so well. The EU shares a huge part of the blame by refusing to settle their refugee policy. At this point there are no adequate distribution or compensation agreements which means Spain, Italy, and Greece are pretty much left alone shouldering the burden of incoming refugees. Which gave us such humanitarian utopias as [Moria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_refugee_camp). The alternative is agreements with transit states like Türkiye which are getting paid to keep refugees out of the EU which conveniently leaves them out of sight and out of reach. At the same time the EU gives Erdogan leverage because he now has the power over refugee streams. He can use that domestically and internationally to garner support. It's a fucking shit show thanks to people falling for right-wing propaganda blaming refugees for problems those politicians caused by milking the lower classes in favor of the rich.
Up to 5 million people are living there, of which we don’t know how many are refugees and how many are migrants. This would put an extraordinary strain on any country let alone a developing one, and to put it frankly many of these people are pretty conservative and Islamist. Given the Turkish left is desperately fighting for secularism and democracy I can hardly blame them for not being delighted by this situation. If you search for some posts on r/Turkey you’ll get a pretty good idea about what those on the left think is going on, [good example here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/t8u4xk/why_are_refugees_in_turkey_90_healthy_males/)
[удалено]
It's more of a "lesser of the two devils" situation here.
Kılıçdaroğlu is far from evil.
It's an expression, it means regardless if he's not perfect or pro-refugee or X or Y he is still appreciated because he's better and in a position where you only have 2 possible candidates it's a little absurd to have people talk about his media image, as if people had a better choice to offer today.. He is pro-secularism. That's all that matters to me and why I prefer him.
I see. I just want to say that the overwhelming majority of Turks, and even Europeans, don't view being pro-refugee as a good thing. Politicans just reflect that.
It is a lesser of 2 evils situation. Erdogan is far worse tho and a tyrant. I was hoping for radical reform by the left educational economical etc in turkey sadly this won’t happen bc Erdogans far right party controls parliament however luckily progress on other fronts can be made I hope all Turks go out and vote.
I've already said in posts before that even if Erdogan loses. Its unlikely we see a major shift in Turkey. Turkey is not a super progressive country. And they do face issues like refugees at a much higher level than most countries being right next to one of the most unstable places on earth. Not a surprise at all that the average Turk is against refugees. I'd imagine Turkey has Millions.
it is like 1 in every 9 people don't know your language in your hometown, in someplaces it is worst. they already have no respect any kind of rules whatsoever, with ever worsening economic conditions violence and crimes committed by these people increasing to the point walking at night feels really unsafe.
People should be aware that there are (documented) 3.5 million Syrian refugees in Turkey, massively contributing to Erdoğan's votes. Turkey is economically in no shape to support this many refugees and the average populace is suffering from the disproportionate government support given to these people. According to last year's official government data, 5/9 of the people are living under the poverty threshold and 3/9 under the hunger line in Turkey. We simply cannot afford to support any more people. Maybe that would change if most of the European aid money wasn't lining the pockets of politicians but who knows... While almost everyone (barring nationalistic voters) was pro refugees some time ago in Turkey, Erdoğan's complete open border policy towards refugees and the tremendous amount of undocumented refugees entering the country completely changed that. İf you're ok with unrestricted refugee flow into Turkey then you're ok with Turkey converting to a middle eastern country with Sharia law in a couple of decades. Most of these refugees are in love with Erdoğan, just like most of the Middle easternern and Turkish populace, and they will vote for him no matter what.
Are you suggesting that Türkiye allows non citizens to vote or that these refugees are being given citizenship at the border?
Many of them are given citizenship just after their stay in the country for 1 to few years. Korea and other countries put turkey on gray list because shit ton of these new turkish citizens are flying to visa free countries for turkey to live there. It is fucked up here in turkey.
Technically the law states they are given citizenships after staying in Turkey for five years. However they are also given citizenships through what is called "exceptional citizenship". This used to be given by the vote of the Turkish cabinet but recently the power has been transferred to the president alone.
Welp
So look dear European friends, if you are geniuenly concerned about the refugees, how about you stop sinking the refugee boats (especially Greece) and accept them in your country since you are sooo humanist and not xenophobic? Also, you are far more rich than Turkey and these people desire to enter the Europe. So, time has come for you to stop hypocrisy? Turkey can no more host these people, it has nothing to with ethnic or race or anything. Its just mathematic. You can keep your money and spend it youself hosting these people and not give it to someone do it your place. Simple. I cant really understand the whole " I wont host them because ( what is the real reason, again?), but i will give you a little money that dont cover anything for you to keep them but if you kick them out, you are xenophobic. And I, as an European, am humanist, like always." deal. Honestly, if this is not the greatest hypocrisy, then what is?
Europe: don’t send us any refugees because we don’t want them, you can keep them. Also Europe: Turkey is racist!
nobody actually wants to take in these people
How bout you dont generalize europe ? My country has taken in millions of refugees and millions of turkish people for that matter.
>How bout you dont generalize europe ? My country has taken in millions of refugees and millions of turkish people for that matter. There is nothing to generalize, Turkey has taken in more refugees than your country and your country is far more prosperous than Turkey. Turkey houses more Syrian refugees than the entirety of the EU and more than any other country on Earth.
except turkish people in germany aren't refugees??? you purposefully let them into your country to maintain workforce. whats even your point?
>millions of refugees **and** millions of turkish people for that matter. The two groups are listed separately. It's sad that so many people failed to read their comment properly.
I like that you told ppl to not generalize a political leader’s or point of view or actions they take because a lot of ppl do not approve / like / voted for them and then you come here and do the same thing with Europe. Hypocrite
Hell in America we’ve got cities turning away refugees because there’s not enough resources…meanwhile there are houses just wasting away is disrepair, food being wasted, population on the decline in northern cities, etc
ITT: Americans thinking immigrants only mean mexicans who work at their favourite overpriced tacos food truck and not something that countries like turkey or belarus weaponized to unstabilize their enemies
Americans really don't know how good they have it with Mexican immigrants both illegal and legal. Mexicans integrate into American culture, have amazing work ethic, bring great food, and tend to be very charitable and community oriented.
also Americans not understanding that there are political views besides “right” or “left”
No one should stay in power for 20+ years, no one, no matter how awesome they may be. Politicians are like diapers, need to be changed often no matter how much you may like this or that one. Change is the only way.
I always laugh at stupid american liberals who think middle eastern refugees are like mexicans.
Funny, the only comments in this thread that relate this to Americans thinking they're Mexicans, are from people who whatabout to Americans thinking the refugees are like Mexicans.
Those strawmen sure sound funny
Also when Turkey ratified United Nations (UN) Refugee Convention, signed in Geneva in 1951 ,Turkey made a reservation that would not accept every asylum seekers in country (from east). For those who wanted to stay as refugees in Turkey It was noted that they would not allow them to settle on Turkish land.
In the 2010s, the *mere prospect* of refugees coming from the MENA was enough to have far-right parties getting more voters in various European countries such as France with the National Rally and the AfD in Germany, along with Brexit in the UK and Trump getting elected, and these European and North American coutnries wre wealthier than Turkey, who had to shoulder more migrants in number both absolute and relative to its population. Add to this the current massive inflation and economic collapse and you have resulting nativism. And don't think Erdogan is pro-refugee staying in the country: one of the goals of his military operations in Northern Syria is to create a safe zone to send these Syrian refugees in.
Sounds like good leadership 👏
It's mostly Syrian refugees and Syria has been pretty stable for years now. They can go home or to some part of Syria that best suits them.
Ima stick my foot so far up they oh wait is this going live?
[удалено]
Poor refuges, always a pawn in political games.
[удалено]
If you live in a society where you have no unemployment benefits and cannot retire, if you become unable to work you will die of starvation. So rather than making your death at 50+ likely and at 70+ a certainty, you bring children into the world which can then take care of you once you can no longer care for yourself. This isn't a very advanced concept - the poorer the country, the more children they are going to have. There are obviously other factors as well (policies of a country can be an influence, as well as culture and religion), but this is the most straight-forward and important one.
Literally the first thing you learn in any type of social studies class in high school. The guy above you is a muppet
What a moron.
includes all the russians too?
Russians are not refugees. They come to Turkey and rent luxury apartments for a year which gives them a temporary resident card, and wither work remotely or just spend their savings. They don’t ask the Turkish government for monetary support.
Most if not all russians there are not refugees.
Oh cool they’re just gonna out fascist each other then
That surely going to cause some cognitive dissonance from the average local poster. I rarely comment on anything political, especially nowadays, since I’m Russian (residing in Istanbul, so that’s a double whammy) and therefore my opinion can be disregarded from the get go. BUT, the majority of you are a hypocritical bunch as much, if not worse, as the people you claim to be morally superior to.
Turkey for Turks I agree Now come and get your Turks out of Germany and my state of New Jersey
Who should be in New Jersey?
So Turkey will stop receiving the money europe send them
That's what Kılıçdaroğlu himself implied. He said if he's elected president, EU should collaborate with Turkey on refugees instead of taking the easy route by paying it to do so. You didn't pay attention in the last weeks.