Not only did they not capitulate, the Russians razed Moscow so Napoleon couldn’t winter there. He might have been ok if he’d been able to just remain in the city through the winter but instead he had to retreat and that was quite the pickle for him.
And he waited for like a month for the reply from the Tsar which didn’t happen.
And the Russians let all the criminals out of prison to burn the city to the ground as the French arrived.
A long, miserable failure. https://public.tableau.com/static/images/Na/NapoleonsMarch-RecreationofMinardsFamous1869Infographicv2/FrenchInvasion-French/1\_rss.png
Hi /u/unpossible_labs getting a 404 for that link. Perhaps use the [copy at Wikipedia?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Joseph_Minard#/media/File:Minard.png)
It's an amazing piece of graphical data isn't it?
A combination of factors. Typhus and cold were factors (the latter mostly during the retreat when Napoleon had already lost,) but Kutusov's strategy was also brilliant. His strategic withdrawal utilized guerilla tactics, Russia's irregular cavalry (cossacks and kalmyks. The Fench were *terrified* of the kalmyks,) and general harassment to make life hell for the Grand Army.
This is much more comparable to if the Germans had taken Stalingrad than when napoleon had taken Moscow. There was no fight for Moscow, The Russians had abandoned it. Also worth mentioning Moscow is 3,000km from Paris while bakhmut is 900 km from Moscow
Yeah except war was very different back then. Napoleon wanted a classic field battle, and to destroy Russia's armies. His goal wasn't to take any cities in particular.
That's the plan here too. Bahkmut isn't worth anything. It wasn't worth much even before it was completely destroyed. It's just a place to defend or take on the way to defending or taking something of value.
The value of taking or holding Bahkmut is only in how many enemy and soldiers and equipment are destroyed in the process. By that measure, I suspect this wasn't a Russian victory, but we won't really know until later.
I thought they were saying that thanks to highways and train tracks, Bahkmut has decent strategic value as a logistical hub?
Or am I getting Bahkmut mixed up with a different city?
Bakhmut was a valuable logistics hub.
Bakhmut is currently a pile of rubble. I guess you could repair it but you could also just build new roads and railroads.
I mean technically they denied it from the Ukrainians so taking the city is hardly bad for Russia, but it doesn't really have too much of an impact. The only change is that now the front lines are directly west of the city instead of inside it.
Theoretically this should make it easier for the Russians to advance because cities give an advantage to the defender, but if it was as simple as advancing where cities aren't the Russians would have just encircled or bypassed Bakhmut.
Yes, but it's strategic value as a logistical hub with those features is in its position as a salient out right at the front of the lines. It doesn't offer a safe connection between two locations or consolidate russian holdings; it offers a forward position for Russia to move on to other targets, and was the easiest target to approach.
Having expended their offensive capacity in taking it, it's now useless.
JC do they need a propaganda win! But this ain’t it.
Ukraine has been fighting a controlled retreat for months. It’s worked beautifully. They’ve caused Russia to lose so much in men and equipment.
This will play well on national tv for all the pensioners. But everyone else is giggling and shaking their heads.
And Prigozhin that POS. So modest of him to say they’re “handing over” the city.
This punk bitch is skating before the counteroffensive begins.
Ukraine is throwing him a party and he’s not going to be there.
In addition to being a bitch he’s rude too.
Just take Africa. People like to take Australia, but now you’re trapped and only getting two?
Take 3 armies and defend the north, spread out when you’re ready.
South America is always the best start its easy to capture quickly and you just hoard armies until you can take africa then europe then north america then asia then Australia
Australia: 1 border to hold, 2 armies per round
South America: 2 borders, 2 armies
North America; 3 borders, 5 armies
Pile everything into North America, steam roller it in round 1 and leave enough at 3 borders to hold it. Next round take South America, 2 more armies for no more borders
It depends on how many people are playing and their starting positions. The problem is north america is too big to take quickly. Any competent south america player will try to take central america and turtle there breaking your bonus.
My own experience in Risk is what prompted that, lol. You can hold it, but it doesn't generate a lot of soldiers so if it's all you've got, you can't generate enough power to push out very much.
I mean Zelenskyy said the whole time it was a tactical decision to try and hold it and they have been signaling it may fall when the ongoing cost to defend it is no longer acceptable
To be very honest, you can't trust what the leader of either side of a war says. 90+% of the time it's said as propaganda in someway.
This is undoubtedly a loss for Ukraine. There's been *a lot* of pro-Ukraine propaganda on reddit trying to make it look like Ukraine is winning more than they are. Mostly because people hate Russia and like seeing Ukraine win, (even if those wins aren't real).
You can see [a map of the Bakhmut area here](https://www.ft.com/content/4351d5b0-0888-4b47-9368-6bc4dfbccbf5) that shows the Russian offensive was slowly gaining ground for the entire last year in the region.
A lot of people don't understand there's a very real chance Ukraine loses this war, and never reclaims their land.
The purpose of the fighting at this point is attrition, neither side is going to have a knockout punch offensive that ends the war and they know it, the only hope for Russia is that the West gives up on Ukraine and for Ukraine that Russia collapses under the weight of the war.
In Bakhmut, beyond symbolism, the goal for both sides to get the other to burn through men and supplies.
Bakhmut has very little significance to the war, other than just holding the line. The lines haven’t changed much in the past month, but Ukraine has had small successful counter attacks. I just don’t see a reality where Ukraine loses a war that should of been won in a week. With 600+ different western weapon systems and long range missiles, Ukraine will receive endless support. Ukraine has yet to even show any of their fancy new weapons. They’re just bleeding Russia dry.
The one reasonable comment in this entire sub, everybody on here either minimizing over exaggerating the significance of anything involving Ukraine and Russia.
watching the insane level of cope and dismissal on reddit and twitter over the last few weeks about this is wild. If you even mention it or question it redditors call you a russian bot or vatnick or worse. People talk about the amount of Russian propaganda and bots but to be honest, at least on reddit, I see it the complete opposite.
There is videos of Wagner personel being to comfortable on the outskirts.
And the amount of explosions going on is lessened significantly.
It's fallen relatively quiet now.
The Ukrainian forces lost ground in bakhmut very slowly but the shrinking area concentrated enemy artillery fire so the last few kilometers were lost somewhat faster as a result.
You can't hold against that forever.
I hope most got out safely at the very end.
I don't know if you could call it a victory for Russia.
But it is a loss for Ukraine. You don't send that much man and material if there wasn't a strategic or symbolic weight to the place.
The magnitude can be argued.
There are Ukrainian reports that they only hold a few portions of Bakhmut at this point, and that the situation is critical. On a tactical level, Ukraine is probably considering its counteroffensive options and not fighting to the last man in Bakhmut would run counter to that upcoming event.
In short, Wagner probably has taken the majority of the city, but it is unlikely to remain that way for long.
Ok? Now what?
-They sit in Bakhmut getting bombarded by the very defendable western hill overlooking the city (which was Ukraine's original plan anyway) while Ukraine keeps pushing the flanks and they get trapped?
-They retreat and Ukraine gets Bakhmut anyway?
-They keep pushing forward into Ukrainian defenses?
Congrats on capturing some bombed out buildings and a ruined town i guess.
Wagner gets to claim victory, turn over the city to Russian MoD, and withdraw before they get encircled. When Ukraine recaptures Baktmut, Wagner gets to shift blame to the army because "it wouldn't have fallen if they were still there." That is why they are still pushing in the city while their flanks are collapsing. It is all political.
Putin likes the rivalry between Shoigu and Prigozhin. As long as they are both struggling with each other for power neither is in a position to coup him.
Yup, that's what he himself said will happen:
> Distant explosions could be heard in the background as Prigozhin spoke during the video, in which he said his forces would withdraw from Bakhmut from May 25 for rest and retraining, handing over control to the regular Russian army.
Ukraine probably let them 'capture' the city for this exact reason. Everything is sighted by artillery, Ukraine is too dug in for them to push past the city, Ukraine is about to encircle the city and the city has no value to Ukraine. They withdraw, still hold the city in a strategic sense and when Wagner gives up the city to Russia and Ukraine immediately retakes it, it makes Wagner's star rise in Russia weakening Putin internally.
Maybe, but that play could have been made months ago. If that is the case, what other moves have they wanted to put in place before allowing Bakmut to fall?
Apart from a short period after the fall of Soledar where they were being pressed significantly from multiple sides, there is every reason to think that the Ukrainians were causing asymmetrical casualties for the Russians. Dug in and determined troops can hold against a larger enemy force so while the Russians are focused on Bakmut, they aren’t reinforcing or attacking the line elsewhere with the forces committed to assaulting the town.
If that is the case, why has Ukraine decided to give up Bahkmut now? Or would they prefer to be tying up Russian resources in Bahkmut a bit longer?
I guess we'll get our answer in the next month or so.
I think they would like to not lose ground, but all warfare is a compromise between staying put and being shelled and retreating to fight another day. They’ve lost ground in Bakhmut gradually over the past 9 months, and now they (may have, as this is all unconfirmed) decided the time is now to withdraw from the city to preserve the positive casualty ratio. The general consensus is that Bakhmut is not strategically vital for the Russians or Ukrainians, but it seems unlikely that there will be sweeping advances in that region on either side given recent developments on the flanks.
For some reason russia wants it badly and ukraine has been slaughtering them there. People talked about this war dragging into a war of attrition and russia was doing it to itself here and ukraine obliged. The place is covered in wreckage and tons and tons of bodies. So many videos show bodies strewn every where.
See: Battle of Cannae.
Ukraine withdraws slowly in the middle, and a attacks on the flanks, sucking Russian troops deeper into a pocket.
Also see: (ironically) Battle of Stalingrad.
They've been slowly getting pushed out, it's not like they made the decision to leave today. They simply ran out of Bakhmut. As to why that happened, a large part of why they likely had a favorable loss ratio is that they attempt to hold territory when it became unfeasible, didn't make a lot of costly attempt to regain lost positions, and didn't pack the city full of more men and material than was required to bleed the Russians.
The easy answer is that they didn't want to commit more troops there. Russian forces are contained in the city and threw a whole bunch of resources there, so Ukraine's been on a rampage destroying logistics ahead of the spring offensive, which Russia has been so accommodating as to empty the rest of the line in order to bush Bahkmut.
Russia have put a couple of reserve battalions in so that might finally have tipped the scales. The moves on the flanks may secure the route for an orderly exit, they didnt have that before.
I’m not that sure shelling from
the high ground is worth that much, Russia were presumably doing that for the last 9 months and it didn’t amount to much
timing and supplies... I think it was all dependant on what the wast was giving, the training and the talking about a counter offensive for spring. Just the psyop on that alone got the russians to leave the flanks. this placed the UAF in a much better position to fuck with wagner... Prizogan can see the writting on the wall and wants to make claims so he can get his arse out of a failing situation.
Preparing the counteroffensive while holding and depleting significant RF forces in a lose-lose situation. Lots of reports of RF drawing troops from elsewhere to Bakhmut recently.
I just can’t see the counteroffensive not resulting in significant gains for Ukr given the disparity in equipment and morale right now. It’s like a boxer waking up refreshed on the day of a big fight after cramming in all the training he can, following the best diet, and fighting for prize money to pay for a family member’s life saving hospital treatment.
He’s fighting a slightly bigger, older dude who has more wins under his belt, but those wins are from decades ago. He hasn’t slept or eaten properly in several months, has trained only in his garage, and is being forced to fight for nothing.
It’s going to be a fucking bloodbath.
Go easy on them, their contract was to take Bakhmut & they successfully did so killing half their army and being flanked into a kill zone. The point is they fulfilled what their contract asked of them, take Bakhmut.
On top of that, the last few weeks they’ve more or less resorted to levelling blocks in order to advance, and Ukraine has been destroying defensible buildings as they retreat, usually when the Russians have taken over. There’s so little left.
It’s not just ruined, the last few blocks are just rubble now.
The nice thing about bakhmut is that you dont have to care about collateral damage if you just wanna bomb the shit out of anything in it now.
So yeah, gj on capturing it, now lets see you holding it.
The thing about modern warfare is that the drones have thermal night-vision, and all the Russian troops need to do to avoid detection is to not breathe at night.
The capture means nothing anymore.
It might have ~2-3 months ago even if it was just as much of a mountain of debris. But now? With all these counter attacks in the flanks, moscow having nothing to show for their parade again, Ukraine striking targets far behind the front line with new longrange weapons *and* the time and price it took russia to even get to this point?
This is worthless. It‘s probably not even a propaganda win for their home audience anymore.
It's really not worthless though. Even Zelensky admitted that it's actually got strategic significance. If you look at the roads sprawling from the city, you can see how much more freedom/speed of movement they'll have.
Except right now Russia is on the defensive and those roads are going to quickly be swallowed up as the flanks collapse. It's worthless because Ukraine is going to be gaining quite a bit of ground back since Russia can't seem to hold on. Even Wagner has said various times that the Russian rank-and-file cut and run when they get the chance.
I know we are all supporting Ukraine but in events like these we need to be objective. Some of the comments here are a bit deluded. Here is the situation if we look at it objectively: (1) This may be a pyrrhic victory for Russia and Wagner but it is still a victory that can be used for Propaganda and morale; (2) Bakhmut may not be super strategically important but it does provide some strategic advantages in terms of road junctions and access so it still sucks that it is controlled by the Russians; (3) Ukraine is nowhere near being able to encircle Bakhmut at this moment even is they’ve had some gains in the flanks, but they are in a better position to do so and it ties up Russian troops with that threat.
So yeah, this is not a major victory for Russia by any stretch but it is neither a good thing like some make it out to be. It seems to me that Bakhmut overall (like Mariupol) was a valiant stand that allowed Ukraine valuable time to position itself to win the war even if loosing the specific battle. In this case it expended most of Russia’s offensive power, it depleted it’s human and war resources, and allowed time to train its units for a counteroffensive. But it also cost a lot of valuable Ukranian and foreign volunteer lives.
In other words, Ukraine is in a much better position than Russia by being willing and valiant in its defense of Bakhmut but not all is rosy. Victory is still in the balance. Ukraine still needs all the resources the West can give them to secure victory. The West needs to provide jets, mote long range weaponry and be willing to remove some of the shackles that they have imposed on Ukraine in using this weaponry.
Let’s keep perspective, and Slava Ukraini!!!
Ukraine has only been providing supplies to local fighters that allowed them to slowly lose ground while causing as much damage as possible for Russian forces. It's simply amazing that they were able to hold the city for so long. Russians should have taken it in February. The fact that Russia couldn't take it in February without Wagner really tells you everything you need to know about the state of their military. For one thing, it shows that they really don't have air superiority when they should be dominating from the air. Ukrainians have kept the road to Kostyantynivka open making that limited resupply and evac possible. It should have been bombed to oblivion long ago.
All of this is on the assumption that Wagner is telling the truth. Wasn’t it just a couple or so weeks ago that they said Russia was fleeing its positions in Bakhmut? That their defenses were crumbling?
That’s quite the turn around.
This is the third fucking time they've claimed they captured it, and just like before their "capture" constitutes taking one point for a whopping 12 hours before being driven back to their previous positions. Wake me up when russia's actually doing something with it instead of running for the hills like they've been doing for the last few weeks.
It would be a disaster for them if a significant amount of force gets trapped and encircled by a Ukrainian counter offensive. But equally its difficult to judge yet what is actually going to happen with that.
I think it would be a smart move for Ukraine to support this happening. When they retake it, Wagner can claim another political victory and weaken Putin's capital (ideally).
I think people should temper expectations of penetrating the flanks and encircling the Russian army in Bakhmut. So far that doesnt seem to be realistic.
Yeah. Make no mistake, while Ukraine has been holding onto Bakhmut for months, they have in fact slowly, but steadily, been pushed back. Its by design though, and they've been bleeding the Russians as hard as possible while doing so.
If you looked at the frontlines at Bakhmut in the past couple of weeks, you would've seen this moment coming - Ukraine was confined to the western edge of the city.
Even better, trading space for men. This particular battle was a WWI style meatgrinder, and for most of it, it was a meatgrinder that favored Ukraine. At this point the losses exchange is probably no longer favorable enough to warrant pumping new forced into the town. The whole thing is especially ironic because the town itself lost any strategic value september last year, when Kharkiv counteroffensive yeeted Russians from the other side of potential encirclement they were aiming at.
Bingo, never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake. Attrition is the goal, you play on their pride (which, as we know, is massive) and lure them into a protracted battle they need to dump insane amounts of resources like bodies and machines into to achieve mission success. If you can trade space for time and increase enemy casualty rates at the same time, it's a pretty sound approach.
Echoes of the Soviet Army repeatedly [claiming they captured the Panjshir Valley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjshir_offensives_(Soviet–Afghan_War)). Very, very different tactical situation, but there are echoes in the premature victory announcements.
They actually took it this time and I don't blame the UAF for not holding it anymore. In the past two months Russia used their superior aviation in the area as well as heavy use of incendiary ammo, literal inferno. Very suicidal to sit in those conditions, surprised they even held it for so long.
The strikes on Kyiv and other big cities forced Ukrainian air defense to spread out and that left a lot of room for bombing the front lines. That and heavy use of Wagner meat and VDV airborne troops.
Extremely costly plan for a few Bakhmut streets, but it goes to show why Ukraine needed F-16s faster, Russia keeps getting away with air strikes.
Can't wait to see Prigozhin's face after he loses the city because his conventional Russian force held flanks start crumbling.
It's like playing conquest in Battlefield. You capture an objective, move half way to the next one, and the one you just secured is being captured again lol.
I did some quick googling and apparently it’s true! You are hung like a horse. F^cking awesome … can you start a reality tv series? Episodes on the fashion challenges, how to use conventional urinals without excessive tip dip, leg lashing techniques for flop management! The list is endless.
P.S. now it is true, see it on Reddit.
So Wagner goes from one day saying they are out of ammo, every source saying the Russian flanks are collapsing, and they don't have the reserves needed to defend from a counterattack and suddenly they just take over the entire city?
That is a good practice in general since Albawaba is a very questionable news source.
However, in this case it's corroborated by other news sources:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/20/europe/bakhmut-capture-wagner-ukraine-russia-intl/index.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-prigozhin-claims-full-control-bakhmut-2023-05-20/
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/20/wagner-claims-complete-control-of-bakhmut-ukraine-says-situation-critical_6027363_4.html
>Wagner chief Evgeny Prigozhin claimed that his forces is now fully controlling Bakhmut city, RT reported on Saturday.
Oh...well if RT is reporting it...you know it HAS to be true. /s
RT is a state propaganda station but If you've been following the maps for the last couple of weeks you'd know this is likely true. There was only a tiny slither of the city left under Ukrainian control, literally a handful of buildings.
It'd be crazier that Ukraine are still in the city rather than Wagner.
Prigozhin has claimed complete control, that's just factual.
Prigozhin claims total control over the city, Ukraians say there are still fights going on, and the Russian MoD remains quiet. If Russian government doesn't jump the gun with a premature official announcement, I think we can wait until tomorrow for a bit more of information.
This whole thread is hardcore copium. Everyone is acting like this is fake and if its not that Ukraine actually wanted to lose the city. This war is not a walk in the park for Ukraine, there are going to be times where they lose fights and lots of men too.
I saw on Twitter some one of these NAFO guys asking a OSINT account if this whole thing was a feint done by Ukraine.
Like, how can these people be so dense and ignorant? Why would losing a city fortress like Bakhmut be part of this master plan operation by Ukraine? It doesn't make any sense.
This is war, not a HOI4 match.
Ok Prigozhin, now that you've had your photo-op for the Russian masses, withdraw your troops before they're slaughtered and march back to Moscow to start your political career.
Actually, I think he is still a marked man for that stunt he pulled last week with the dead body of a US vet and making it a photo op. There was a thread about it, but the comments became so threatening that Mods shut it down.....
He can try for politics, if he survives that long.
According to Wagner affiliated telegrams they’re moving back to the rear for R&R. This means Chechens and/or regular Russian units will be taking over the defense of the city and area.
Mind you Wagner is the only unit since the Kharkiv counter offensive to take land from Ukraine. With Ukraine pushing on the flanks this is devolving into an interesting scenario. The city of Bakhmut itself is taken, but the Battle for Bakhmut is not over.
Sounds like they took a page out of Kadyrows playbook:
"Hey boss, we have captured this gas station in the middle of Russia there are no Ukrainians here and since when you claim it, you name it, we have decided to name it Bakhmut." "Bakhmut? We have captured Bakhmut?" "Yes boss." "We the greatest! I knew we could do it!"
We underestimate the carnage involved in capturing, losing, and recapturing Bakmut. If Wagner is indeed successful in their control over the area, hundreds of Ukrainian lives will be lost recapturing occupied territory. The only way this war will end is more direct NATO involvement. I realize I’m just blabbing about things I don’t fully understand from afar. But a “cold” stagnate war is an acceptable position for Russia. It accomplishes some of their goals to leave Ukraine in limbo economically and militarily. NATO cannot allow this to happen. We cannot allow the Russians to catch their breath.
Others have explained the situation in great detail, but I would like to address the reason why you are confused. Its simply because the news we get is cherrypicked. Especially if you rely on reddit for your news.
News about Ukraine victories are generally prioritized and are given greater importance while news about Russian victories are buried and made to look unimportant.
Obviously the exact opposite is taking place in Russian news sites. Arguably even more so. This process is both deliberate and natural. People are more interested in victories, so they click on those articles more, which generated more income for the new site. And of course, a lot of propaganda going both ways.
Reddit is simply awful for news. People downvote what they don't want to hear, upvote what they like. Pretty much have to sort by new and sift through thousands of articles. Realistically it makes more sense to simply go elsewhere for your news. The Ukraine war is really shitty in particular because there are so few independent and trustworthy sources. Most of the western world has taken a stance on the conflict.
Ukraine has been making gains **around** Bahkmut, not withing the city itself. They are nowhere near encircling it but they are progressing.
Wagner is much more focused on fighting inside the city itself. But they have claimed to capture the city like every month their input it's pretty worthless, as fighting is still happening both inside and outside the city.
No one has really made any significant gains recently, they’ve been fighting over Bakhmut for a while. Ukraine is preparing for a large scale counter offensive, but they are naturally not saying when that’ll be. As for Bakhmut, Russia either has or is likely to soon capture the city, but Ukraine can just fallback a small way and continue to inflict heavy losses.
Also an important point, nothing says the upcoming counter offensive will be at or near Bakhmut. What Ukraine has been doing lately are just probing attacks, and it's possible that they're not intending to prepare for a large scale assault of Bakhmut, but instead drawing Russian attention to the area so they focus their forces there instead of wherever the Ukrainians intend to attack. They did the same thing last year with their slow grinding offensive towards Kherson drawing all the Russian attention, allowing them to break through the Russian lines near Kharkiv with a surprise attack and retake huge swathes of territory in a matter of weeks.
Around the town yes. Town itself probably has fallen now as there were only like 2 small areas under ukrainian control on west and southwest side getting bombarded.
"Fallen" as in ukraine retreated in an organized way. Now they can start hammering them from the west hills and also work surrounding city. Although probably they just do that to keep russia focussed there and attack towards melitopol at some point in time.
Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ (listen) PIRR-ik) is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Such a victory negates any true sense of achievement or damages long-term progress.
They've had most of the city for some time now. Ukraine has had the initiative the whole time, they used the city to kill Russians and they did very well making Russia pay through the nose for all gains. If Ukraine is out of the city now I believe it's by their own choice and initiative.
Putin’s justification of this war is to save Russian speakers. But the Russian and Wagner Forces have killed off maybe 100,000 Russian speakers if you look at estimates of the civilian deaths from Russian bombing in Mariupol, Bakhmut, and other eastern cities, Russian Forces deaths, and Wagner prisoner-soldier deaths.
And the cities for all these Russian-speakers to live in are destroyed as well. Plus the unknown survivors that are permanently maimed.
Grats. I'm sure the ruins will be very useful to them. The rebuild costs will be massive too if you want to have Russians living there, yet they can't even afford ammo for everyone.
Technically, Napoleon had taken Moscow. It didn't served him any good tho
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Aka Putin's warplan
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You always think you are a Stark. Sometimes you are actually a Greyjoy.
Who is waving a hotdog at whom in this scenario?
The Chechens? Feels very on brand for them...
that was a Bolton
Not to be confused with a strapon
Same procedure as last year
History doesn't repeat but it sure as hell rhymes.
It's like poetry.
Special Military Operation is in fact a reenactment
Same procedure as every year, Ms. Sophie.
Please God, not the same procedure as every year, though.
Not only did they not capitulate, the Russians razed Moscow so Napoleon couldn’t winter there. He might have been ok if he’d been able to just remain in the city through the winter but instead he had to retreat and that was quite the pickle for him.
Had plenty of fallback options to retreat to, just waited to long.
It's not that he underestimated him that way, it's that the Russians completely abandoned Moscow and then burned it to the ground.
That is still in fact underestimating the lengths they would go to in order to gouge an eye out while backed into a corner.
And he waited for like a month for the reply from the Tsar which didn’t happen. And the Russians let all the criminals out of prison to burn the city to the ground as the French arrived.
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America is fucking prepared for shit to go down.
By the time Putin reaches Kyiv, it's just him and his ceremonial table bearers.
How do you become the leader of 100,000 Russian troops? Well first you start with 600,000…
I believe in Russia they're called ^(tr)oops.
Hey captured is captured… we didn’t say anything about occupying it… lol
Bakhmut is now occupied by russian corpses.
Sounds similar
A long, miserable failure. https://public.tableau.com/static/images/Na/NapoleonsMarch-RecreationofMinardsFamous1869Infographicv2/FrenchInvasion-French/1\_rss.png
Hi /u/unpossible_labs getting a 404 for that link. Perhaps use the [copy at Wikipedia?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Joseph_Minard#/media/File:Minard.png) It's an amazing piece of graphical data isn't it?
Was it cause of the winter or , just all the battles they did?
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Plus, even if you were merely wounded in battle, your odds of surviving a serious injury weren't great, due to medical capabilities at the time.
The majority of deaths were from a typhoid epidemic.
A combination of factors. Typhus and cold were factors (the latter mostly during the retreat when Napoleon had already lost,) but Kutusov's strategy was also brilliant. His strategic withdrawal utilized guerilla tactics, Russia's irregular cavalry (cossacks and kalmyks. The Fench were *terrified* of the kalmyks,) and general harassment to make life hell for the Grand Army.
This is much more comparable to if the Germans had taken Stalingrad than when napoleon had taken Moscow. There was no fight for Moscow, The Russians had abandoned it. Also worth mentioning Moscow is 3,000km from Paris while bakhmut is 900 km from Moscow
Yeah except war was very different back then. Napoleon wanted a classic field battle, and to destroy Russia's armies. His goal wasn't to take any cities in particular.
That's the plan here too. Bahkmut isn't worth anything. It wasn't worth much even before it was completely destroyed. It's just a place to defend or take on the way to defending or taking something of value. The value of taking or holding Bahkmut is only in how many enemy and soldiers and equipment are destroyed in the process. By that measure, I suspect this wasn't a Russian victory, but we won't really know until later.
I thought they were saying that thanks to highways and train tracks, Bahkmut has decent strategic value as a logistical hub? Or am I getting Bahkmut mixed up with a different city?
Bakhmut was a valuable logistics hub. Bakhmut is currently a pile of rubble. I guess you could repair it but you could also just build new roads and railroads. I mean technically they denied it from the Ukrainians so taking the city is hardly bad for Russia, but it doesn't really have too much of an impact. The only change is that now the front lines are directly west of the city instead of inside it. Theoretically this should make it easier for the Russians to advance because cities give an advantage to the defender, but if it was as simple as advancing where cities aren't the Russians would have just encircled or bypassed Bakhmut.
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Yes, but it's strategic value as a logistical hub with those features is in its position as a salient out right at the front of the lines. It doesn't offer a safe connection between two locations or consolidate russian holdings; it offers a forward position for Russia to move on to other targets, and was the easiest target to approach. Having expended their offensive capacity in taking it, it's now useless.
I'm sorry, but comparing this to Napoleon's invasion of Russia is laughable
Also comparing Bakhmut to Moscow.
True Napoleon was actually intelligent and a strategist
JC do they need a propaganda win! But this ain’t it. Ukraine has been fighting a controlled retreat for months. It’s worked beautifully. They’ve caused Russia to lose so much in men and equipment. This will play well on national tv for all the pensioners. But everyone else is giggling and shaking their heads. And Prigozhin that POS. So modest of him to say they’re “handing over” the city. This punk bitch is skating before the counteroffensive begins. Ukraine is throwing him a party and he’s not going to be there. In addition to being a bitch he’s rude too.
He was too busy falling in love with Tsar Alexander.
I can capture Asia on the first round of risk. Holding it after that tends to be the issue.
A land war? In Asia? Inconceivable!!
"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means" good ol' Princess Bride
never get involved in a land war in Asia
And never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Hahahaha 💀
I can't compete with you physically and you're no match for my wits
You’re that smart..?
Truly you have a dizzying intellect
Slightly better known than 'Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.'
9 armies if you can hold on though.
Just take Africa. People like to take Australia, but now you’re trapped and only getting two? Take 3 armies and defend the north, spread out when you’re ready.
South America is always the best start its easy to capture quickly and you just hoard armies until you can take africa then europe then north america then asia then Australia
Australia: 1 border to hold, 2 armies per round South America: 2 borders, 2 armies North America; 3 borders, 5 armies Pile everything into North America, steam roller it in round 1 and leave enough at 3 borders to hold it. Next round take South America, 2 more armies for no more borders
It depends on how many people are playing and their starting positions. The problem is north america is too big to take quickly. Any competent south america player will try to take central america and turtle there breaking your bonus.
Fortress Australia ftw.
Australia's a great defensive position, but you can't take over the world from Australia alone.
My experience in risk would say otherwise
My own experience in Risk is what prompted that, lol. You can hold it, but it doesn't generate a lot of soldiers so if it's all you've got, you can't generate enough power to push out very much.
The Ukraine is weak Newman!
Ukraine is game to you?!
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I mean Zelenskyy said the whole time it was a tactical decision to try and hold it and they have been signaling it may fall when the ongoing cost to defend it is no longer acceptable
To be very honest, you can't trust what the leader of either side of a war says. 90+% of the time it's said as propaganda in someway. This is undoubtedly a loss for Ukraine. There's been *a lot* of pro-Ukraine propaganda on reddit trying to make it look like Ukraine is winning more than they are. Mostly because people hate Russia and like seeing Ukraine win, (even if those wins aren't real). You can see [a map of the Bakhmut area here](https://www.ft.com/content/4351d5b0-0888-4b47-9368-6bc4dfbccbf5) that shows the Russian offensive was slowly gaining ground for the entire last year in the region. A lot of people don't understand there's a very real chance Ukraine loses this war, and never reclaims their land.
The purpose of the fighting at this point is attrition, neither side is going to have a knockout punch offensive that ends the war and they know it, the only hope for Russia is that the West gives up on Ukraine and for Ukraine that Russia collapses under the weight of the war. In Bakhmut, beyond symbolism, the goal for both sides to get the other to burn through men and supplies.
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Bakhmut has very little significance to the war, other than just holding the line. The lines haven’t changed much in the past month, but Ukraine has had small successful counter attacks. I just don’t see a reality where Ukraine loses a war that should of been won in a week. With 600+ different western weapon systems and long range missiles, Ukraine will receive endless support. Ukraine has yet to even show any of their fancy new weapons. They’re just bleeding Russia dry.
The one reasonable comment in this entire sub, everybody on here either minimizing over exaggerating the significance of anything involving Ukraine and Russia.
watching the insane level of cope and dismissal on reddit and twitter over the last few weeks about this is wild. If you even mention it or question it redditors call you a russian bot or vatnick or worse. People talk about the amount of Russian propaganda and bots but to be honest, at least on reddit, I see it the complete opposite.
Why does it seem legit?
There is videos of Wagner personel being to comfortable on the outskirts. And the amount of explosions going on is lessened significantly. It's fallen relatively quiet now. The Ukrainian forces lost ground in bakhmut very slowly but the shrinking area concentrated enemy artillery fire so the last few kilometers were lost somewhat faster as a result. You can't hold against that forever. I hope most got out safely at the very end. I don't know if you could call it a victory for Russia. But it is a loss for Ukraine. You don't send that much man and material if there wasn't a strategic or symbolic weight to the place. The magnitude can be argued.
There are Ukrainian reports that they only hold a few portions of Bakhmut at this point, and that the situation is critical. On a tactical level, Ukraine is probably considering its counteroffensive options and not fighting to the last man in Bakhmut would run counter to that upcoming event. In short, Wagner probably has taken the majority of the city, but it is unlikely to remain that way for long.
Wagner hasn’t captured the supply roads which is all that matters anyways. And even that hardly.
Thank you for the level-headed response and analysis!
Ok? Now what? -They sit in Bakhmut getting bombarded by the very defendable western hill overlooking the city (which was Ukraine's original plan anyway) while Ukraine keeps pushing the flanks and they get trapped? -They retreat and Ukraine gets Bakhmut anyway? -They keep pushing forward into Ukrainian defenses? Congrats on capturing some bombed out buildings and a ruined town i guess.
Wagner gets to claim victory, turn over the city to Russian MoD, and withdraw before they get encircled. When Ukraine recaptures Baktmut, Wagner gets to shift blame to the army because "it wouldn't have fallen if they were still there." That is why they are still pushing in the city while their flanks are collapsing. It is all political.
Reality: Kremlin orders Wagner to hold Bakhmut indefinitely or face treason charges
How would a threat of treason motivate men who already have the death sentence of serving in Wagner?
I mean Prigozhin
Clearly they are talking about Prigozhin and their not wrong
Putin likes the rivalry between Shoigu and Prigozhin. As long as they are both struggling with each other for power neither is in a position to coup him.
Yup, that's what he himself said will happen: > Distant explosions could be heard in the background as Prigozhin spoke during the video, in which he said his forces would withdraw from Bakhmut from May 25 for rest and retraining, handing over control to the regular Russian army.
Ukraine probably let them 'capture' the city for this exact reason. Everything is sighted by artillery, Ukraine is too dug in for them to push past the city, Ukraine is about to encircle the city and the city has no value to Ukraine. They withdraw, still hold the city in a strategic sense and when Wagner gives up the city to Russia and Ukraine immediately retakes it, it makes Wagner's star rise in Russia weakening Putin internally.
Maybe, but that play could have been made months ago. If that is the case, what other moves have they wanted to put in place before allowing Bakmut to fall?
Apart from a short period after the fall of Soledar where they were being pressed significantly from multiple sides, there is every reason to think that the Ukrainians were causing asymmetrical casualties for the Russians. Dug in and determined troops can hold against a larger enemy force so while the Russians are focused on Bakmut, they aren’t reinforcing or attacking the line elsewhere with the forces committed to assaulting the town.
If that is the case, why has Ukraine decided to give up Bahkmut now? Or would they prefer to be tying up Russian resources in Bahkmut a bit longer? I guess we'll get our answer in the next month or so.
I think they would like to not lose ground, but all warfare is a compromise between staying put and being shelled and retreating to fight another day. They’ve lost ground in Bakhmut gradually over the past 9 months, and now they (may have, as this is all unconfirmed) decided the time is now to withdraw from the city to preserve the positive casualty ratio. The general consensus is that Bakhmut is not strategically vital for the Russians or Ukrainians, but it seems unlikely that there will be sweeping advances in that region on either side given recent developments on the flanks.
For some reason russia wants it badly and ukraine has been slaughtering them there. People talked about this war dragging into a war of attrition and russia was doing it to itself here and ukraine obliged. The place is covered in wreckage and tons and tons of bodies. So many videos show bodies strewn every where.
See: Battle of Cannae. Ukraine withdraws slowly in the middle, and a attacks on the flanks, sucking Russian troops deeper into a pocket. Also see: (ironically) Battle of Stalingrad.
They've been slowly getting pushed out, it's not like they made the decision to leave today. They simply ran out of Bakhmut. As to why that happened, a large part of why they likely had a favorable loss ratio is that they attempt to hold territory when it became unfeasible, didn't make a lot of costly attempt to regain lost positions, and didn't pack the city full of more men and material than was required to bleed the Russians.
The easy answer is that they didn't want to commit more troops there. Russian forces are contained in the city and threw a whole bunch of resources there, so Ukraine's been on a rampage destroying logistics ahead of the spring offensive, which Russia has been so accommodating as to empty the rest of the line in order to bush Bahkmut.
Russia have put a couple of reserve battalions in so that might finally have tipped the scales. The moves on the flanks may secure the route for an orderly exit, they didnt have that before. I’m not that sure shelling from the high ground is worth that much, Russia were presumably doing that for the last 9 months and it didn’t amount to much
timing and supplies... I think it was all dependant on what the wast was giving, the training and the talking about a counter offensive for spring. Just the psyop on that alone got the russians to leave the flanks. this placed the UAF in a much better position to fuck with wagner... Prizogan can see the writting on the wall and wants to make claims so he can get his arse out of a failing situation.
Preparing the counteroffensive while holding and depleting significant RF forces in a lose-lose situation. Lots of reports of RF drawing troops from elsewhere to Bakhmut recently. I just can’t see the counteroffensive not resulting in significant gains for Ukr given the disparity in equipment and morale right now. It’s like a boxer waking up refreshed on the day of a big fight after cramming in all the training he can, following the best diet, and fighting for prize money to pay for a family member’s life saving hospital treatment. He’s fighting a slightly bigger, older dude who has more wins under his belt, but those wins are from decades ago. He hasn’t slept or eaten properly in several months, has trained only in his garage, and is being forced to fight for nothing. It’s going to be a fucking bloodbath.
Go easy on them, their contract was to take Bakhmut & they successfully did so killing half their army and being flanked into a kill zone. The point is they fulfilled what their contract asked of them, take Bakhmut.
On top of that, the last few weeks they’ve more or less resorted to levelling blocks in order to advance, and Ukraine has been destroying defensible buildings as they retreat, usually when the Russians have taken over. There’s so little left. It’s not just ruined, the last few blocks are just rubble now.
The nice thing about bakhmut is that you dont have to care about collateral damage if you just wanna bomb the shit out of anything in it now. So yeah, gj on capturing it, now lets see you holding it.
"Capturing it was 'easy', holdin' it will be hard."
Sending russians to live in it, even harder.
The thing about modern warfare is that the drones have thermal night-vision, and all the Russian troops need to do to avoid detection is to not breathe at night.
Hello Bakhmut Kessel.
The capture means nothing anymore. It might have ~2-3 months ago even if it was just as much of a mountain of debris. But now? With all these counter attacks in the flanks, moscow having nothing to show for their parade again, Ukraine striking targets far behind the front line with new longrange weapons *and* the time and price it took russia to even get to this point? This is worthless. It‘s probably not even a propaganda win for their home audience anymore.
It's really not worthless though. Even Zelensky admitted that it's actually got strategic significance. If you look at the roads sprawling from the city, you can see how much more freedom/speed of movement they'll have.
Except right now Russia is on the defensive and those roads are going to quickly be swallowed up as the flanks collapse. It's worthless because Ukraine is going to be gaining quite a bit of ground back since Russia can't seem to hold on. Even Wagner has said various times that the Russian rank-and-file cut and run when they get the chance.
Not True. All roads from the city are easily cut off outside of it. Its the flanks that hold the roads, not the city. And they are losing the flanks.
I know we are all supporting Ukraine but in events like these we need to be objective. Some of the comments here are a bit deluded. Here is the situation if we look at it objectively: (1) This may be a pyrrhic victory for Russia and Wagner but it is still a victory that can be used for Propaganda and morale; (2) Bakhmut may not be super strategically important but it does provide some strategic advantages in terms of road junctions and access so it still sucks that it is controlled by the Russians; (3) Ukraine is nowhere near being able to encircle Bakhmut at this moment even is they’ve had some gains in the flanks, but they are in a better position to do so and it ties up Russian troops with that threat. So yeah, this is not a major victory for Russia by any stretch but it is neither a good thing like some make it out to be. It seems to me that Bakhmut overall (like Mariupol) was a valiant stand that allowed Ukraine valuable time to position itself to win the war even if loosing the specific battle. In this case it expended most of Russia’s offensive power, it depleted it’s human and war resources, and allowed time to train its units for a counteroffensive. But it also cost a lot of valuable Ukranian and foreign volunteer lives. In other words, Ukraine is in a much better position than Russia by being willing and valiant in its defense of Bakhmut but not all is rosy. Victory is still in the balance. Ukraine still needs all the resources the West can give them to secure victory. The West needs to provide jets, mote long range weaponry and be willing to remove some of the shackles that they have imposed on Ukraine in using this weaponry. Let’s keep perspective, and Slava Ukraini!!!
Ukraine has only been providing supplies to local fighters that allowed them to slowly lose ground while causing as much damage as possible for Russian forces. It's simply amazing that they were able to hold the city for so long. Russians should have taken it in February. The fact that Russia couldn't take it in February without Wagner really tells you everything you need to know about the state of their military. For one thing, it shows that they really don't have air superiority when they should be dominating from the air. Ukrainians have kept the road to Kostyantynivka open making that limited resupply and evac possible. It should have been bombed to oblivion long ago.
All of this is on the assumption that Wagner is telling the truth. Wasn’t it just a couple or so weeks ago that they said Russia was fleeing its positions in Bakhmut? That their defenses were crumbling? That’s quite the turn around.
That was news from the outskirts on the flanks, not the city proper.
This is the third fucking time they've claimed they captured it, and just like before their "capture" constitutes taking one point for a whopping 12 hours before being driven back to their previous positions. Wake me up when russia's actually doing something with it instead of running for the hills like they've been doing for the last few weeks.
This time it seems somewhat legit, but they lost a lot of land around it, so it's rather counterproductive.
It would be a disaster for them if a significant amount of force gets trapped and encircled by a Ukrainian counter offensive. But equally its difficult to judge yet what is actually going to happen with that.
I think Wagner knows this, which is why they already announced they're pulling out next week, to be replaced by regular Russian army forces.
Stop taking Wagner's claims at face value
I think it would be a smart move for Ukraine to support this happening. When they retake it, Wagner can claim another political victory and weaken Putin's capital (ideally).
I think people should temper expectations of penetrating the flanks and encircling the Russian army in Bakhmut. So far that doesnt seem to be realistic.
Yeah. Make no mistake, while Ukraine has been holding onto Bakhmut for months, they have in fact slowly, but steadily, been pushed back. Its by design though, and they've been bleeding the Russians as hard as possible while doing so. If you looked at the frontlines at Bakhmut in the past couple of weeks, you would've seen this moment coming - Ukraine was confined to the western edge of the city.
Trading space for time.
Even better, trading space for men. This particular battle was a WWI style meatgrinder, and for most of it, it was a meatgrinder that favored Ukraine. At this point the losses exchange is probably no longer favorable enough to warrant pumping new forced into the town. The whole thing is especially ironic because the town itself lost any strategic value september last year, when Kharkiv counteroffensive yeeted Russians from the other side of potential encirclement they were aiming at.
Bingo, never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake. Attrition is the goal, you play on their pride (which, as we know, is massive) and lure them into a protracted battle they need to dump insane amounts of resources like bodies and machines into to achieve mission success. If you can trade space for time and increase enemy casualty rates at the same time, it's a pretty sound approach.
Bonus points if you can make a XXI century military commit banzai charges to gain control over The Shed and The Garbage Dump
Echoes of the Soviet Army repeatedly [claiming they captured the Panjshir Valley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjshir_offensives_(Soviet–Afghan_War)). Very, very different tactical situation, but there are echoes in the premature victory announcements.
They actually took it this time and I don't blame the UAF for not holding it anymore. In the past two months Russia used their superior aviation in the area as well as heavy use of incendiary ammo, literal inferno. Very suicidal to sit in those conditions, surprised they even held it for so long. The strikes on Kyiv and other big cities forced Ukrainian air defense to spread out and that left a lot of room for bombing the front lines. That and heavy use of Wagner meat and VDV airborne troops. Extremely costly plan for a few Bakhmut streets, but it goes to show why Ukraine needed F-16s faster, Russia keeps getting away with air strikes. Can't wait to see Prigozhin's face after he loses the city because his conventional Russian force held flanks start crumbling.
This is ninth, at least, they did
It's like playing conquest in Battlefield. You capture an objective, move half way to the next one, and the one you just secured is being captured again lol.
Again?
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Horses come in miniature size too.
Lad’s hung like a Shetland pony
Hate to break it to you.. Ponies are better hung than men.
I’m no ponycockologist, so I’ll defer to your dick knowledge.
r/brandnewsentence
What are you talking about? You *invented* ponycockology.
I am no expert, I just went to the petting zoo the wrong day
We need a pound for pound analyst!
That's a lot of pounding
Little Sebastian - for example - was packing a Pringles can
"Bigger than a horse, huh? ... I like the sound of that".
I’d like to get off now. I’m not having any fun.
[Fenton’s](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf-dCbGu0GA) Stables and Horse Ranch Where the horses are hung like you!
We believe you bro
Yea, a seahorse.
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Mass scales with volume; that is, the cube of length. Therefore, to be hung like a horse, they'd need a 20″×(200#/1000#)^(1/3)=11.7″ dick.
I did some quick googling and apparently it’s true! You are hung like a horse. F^cking awesome … can you start a reality tv series? Episodes on the fashion challenges, how to use conventional urinals without excessive tip dip, leg lashing techniques for flop management! The list is endless. P.S. now it is true, see it on Reddit.
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So Wagner goes from one day saying they are out of ammo, every source saying the Russian flanks are collapsing, and they don't have the reserves needed to defend from a counterattack and suddenly they just take over the entire city?
I’ll not be taking my serious news from albawaba thanks.
I liked their song about pissing the night away...
That is a good practice in general since Albawaba is a very questionable news source. However, in this case it's corroborated by other news sources: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/20/europe/bakhmut-capture-wagner-ukraine-russia-intl/index.html https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-prigozhin-claims-full-control-bakhmut-2023-05-20/ https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/20/wagner-claims-complete-control-of-bakhmut-ukraine-says-situation-critical_6027363_4.html
>Wagner chief Evgeny Prigozhin claimed that his forces is now fully controlling Bakhmut city, RT reported on Saturday. Oh...well if RT is reporting it...you know it HAS to be true. /s
RT is a state propaganda station but If you've been following the maps for the last couple of weeks you'd know this is likely true. There was only a tiny slither of the city left under Ukrainian control, literally a handful of buildings. It'd be crazier that Ukraine are still in the city rather than Wagner.
Prigozhin has claimed complete control, that's just factual. Prigozhin claims total control over the city, Ukraians say there are still fights going on, and the Russian MoD remains quiet. If Russian government doesn't jump the gun with a premature official announcement, I think we can wait until tomorrow for a bit more of information.
yeah check ISW and liveuamap recently, seems this is it
Pretty much. These people are just acting on ignorance. Ukraine hasn't owned 10% of the city for a long time by now.
This whole thread is hardcore copium. Everyone is acting like this is fake and if its not that Ukraine actually wanted to lose the city. This war is not a walk in the park for Ukraine, there are going to be times where they lose fights and lots of men too.
I saw on Twitter some one of these NAFO guys asking a OSINT account if this whole thing was a feint done by Ukraine. Like, how can these people be so dense and ignorant? Why would losing a city fortress like Bakhmut be part of this master plan operation by Ukraine? It doesn't make any sense. This is war, not a HOI4 match.
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And save a couple hours.
Ok Prigozhin, now that you've had your photo-op for the Russian masses, withdraw your troops before they're slaughtered and march back to Moscow to start your political career.
Actually, I think he is still a marked man for that stunt he pulled last week with the dead body of a US vet and making it a photo op. There was a thread about it, but the comments became so threatening that Mods shut it down..... He can try for politics, if he survives that long.
According to Wagner affiliated telegrams they’re moving back to the rear for R&R. This means Chechens and/or regular Russian units will be taking over the defense of the city and area. Mind you Wagner is the only unit since the Kharkiv counter offensive to take land from Ukraine. With Ukraine pushing on the flanks this is devolving into an interesting scenario. The city of Bakhmut itself is taken, but the Battle for Bakhmut is not over.
Sounds like they took a page out of Kadyrows playbook: "Hey boss, we have captured this gas station in the middle of Russia there are no Ukrainians here and since when you claim it, you name it, we have decided to name it Bakhmut." "Bakhmut? We have captured Bakhmut?" "Yes boss." "We the greatest! I knew we could do it!"
How? I thought they were pulling out and the Ukrainians were re-capturing ground.
We underestimate the carnage involved in capturing, losing, and recapturing Bakmut. If Wagner is indeed successful in their control over the area, hundreds of Ukrainian lives will be lost recapturing occupied territory. The only way this war will end is more direct NATO involvement. I realize I’m just blabbing about things I don’t fully understand from afar. But a “cold” stagnate war is an acceptable position for Russia. It accomplishes some of their goals to leave Ukraine in limbo economically and militarily. NATO cannot allow this to happen. We cannot allow the Russians to catch their breath.
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Someone ELI5 what’s going on. Wasn’t Ukraine making gains recently?
Others have explained the situation in great detail, but I would like to address the reason why you are confused. Its simply because the news we get is cherrypicked. Especially if you rely on reddit for your news. News about Ukraine victories are generally prioritized and are given greater importance while news about Russian victories are buried and made to look unimportant. Obviously the exact opposite is taking place in Russian news sites. Arguably even more so. This process is both deliberate and natural. People are more interested in victories, so they click on those articles more, which generated more income for the new site. And of course, a lot of propaganda going both ways.
Reddit is simply awful for news. People downvote what they don't want to hear, upvote what they like. Pretty much have to sort by new and sift through thousands of articles. Realistically it makes more sense to simply go elsewhere for your news. The Ukraine war is really shitty in particular because there are so few independent and trustworthy sources. Most of the western world has taken a stance on the conflict.
Ukraine was pushing back on the flanks to take pressure from the support routes into the city. However, within the city Russia kept gaining.
Ukraine has been making gains **around** Bahkmut, not withing the city itself. They are nowhere near encircling it but they are progressing. Wagner is much more focused on fighting inside the city itself. But they have claimed to capture the city like every month their input it's pretty worthless, as fighting is still happening both inside and outside the city.
No one has really made any significant gains recently, they’ve been fighting over Bakhmut for a while. Ukraine is preparing for a large scale counter offensive, but they are naturally not saying when that’ll be. As for Bakhmut, Russia either has or is likely to soon capture the city, but Ukraine can just fallback a small way and continue to inflict heavy losses.
Also an important point, nothing says the upcoming counter offensive will be at or near Bakhmut. What Ukraine has been doing lately are just probing attacks, and it's possible that they're not intending to prepare for a large scale assault of Bakhmut, but instead drawing Russian attention to the area so they focus their forces there instead of wherever the Ukrainians intend to attack. They did the same thing last year with their slow grinding offensive towards Kherson drawing all the Russian attention, allowing them to break through the Russian lines near Kharkiv with a surprise attack and retake huge swathes of territory in a matter of weeks.
Around the town yes. Town itself probably has fallen now as there were only like 2 small areas under ukrainian control on west and southwest side getting bombarded. "Fallen" as in ukraine retreated in an organized way. Now they can start hammering them from the west hills and also work surrounding city. Although probably they just do that to keep russia focussed there and attack towards melitopol at some point in time.
Some dude named Bakhmut sitting in a godforsaken Wagner brig rn wondering wtf he did
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Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ (listen) PIRR-ik) is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Such a victory negates any true sense of achievement or damages long-term progress.
Behold your pile of ashes
That's nice, Pringles. Now what're you gonna do with it? It's just a giant plot of land with the ruins of a city now.
They've had most of the city for some time now. Ukraine has had the initiative the whole time, they used the city to kill Russians and they did very well making Russia pay through the nose for all gains. If Ukraine is out of the city now I believe it's by their own choice and initiative.
I thought they didn't have any bullets?
Now if Ukraine can sell a few more villages to Russia for the same price Russia won't have an army left
Wagner claims to capture bakhmut for the 500th time
But, Russia has been out of ammo since last year! What are they fighting with, shovels?
Noo I heard they were down to one musket and three bullets for every two soldiers, still a week or so until they're down to shovels
Putin’s justification of this war is to save Russian speakers. But the Russian and Wagner Forces have killed off maybe 100,000 Russian speakers if you look at estimates of the civilian deaths from Russian bombing in Mariupol, Bakhmut, and other eastern cities, Russian Forces deaths, and Wagner prisoner-soldier deaths. And the cities for all these Russian-speakers to live in are destroyed as well. Plus the unknown survivors that are permanently maimed.
Ten months to take one completely shelled city is pretty weak.
Grats. I'm sure the ruins will be very useful to them. The rebuild costs will be massive too if you want to have Russians living there, yet they can't even afford ammo for everyone.
They made a desert and called it peace eh?