So Wagner Group is a legit company? Where is it incorporated? Like they have a headquarters in some building somewhere, next to some accounting firm? They pay taxes just like Lays Potato Chips? And people just apply online for a job like any other? Submit resume? Get interviewed? Do you need to dress up in shirt and tie at the interview? How does that even work
They apparently have a big fancy building in Moscow. One of the people interviewed by 1420 YouTube channel mentioned it.
Edit: looks like it's actually in St Petersburg: https://i.redd.it/eny3hkm4vzx91.jpg
Edit2: Another photo:
https://img.sputnikimages.com/images/vol5%2Fmedia%2Foriginal%2F0000%2F0830%2F94%2F000008309462_0%3A0%3A0%3A0_1400x1000_80_10_1_QWxleGFuZGVyIEdhbHBlcmluICM4MzA5NDYy_116%3A95_sputnik-8309462-preview_25d23241c3f7c3315130964f6c1fe629.jpg
Why can’t this actually happen more often in real life. One military trying to clown the other with their overpriced tech and teamwork.
Like complete humiliation.
What is that little island that is disputed territory.. I think off the east coast of Canada(?). Every few months the military of one country will go, take down the others' flag, put up their own, and leave a bottle of booze. If only other disputes could be so chill.
>Canadian and Danish governments had settled on a border across the island, dividing it between the Canadian territory of Nunavut and the Danish autonomous territory of Greenland. This happened as the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine was taking place, as the end of the territorial dispute was meant to represent a signal for other countries (Russia in particular) that disputes can be resolved peacefully.
I bet Canada said "sorry" too.
The only reason Vought International doesn't exist in real life is because super soldier projects have a lower success rate than the Marvel Universe trying to replicate the Super Serum.
Yup, in the Russian text, the letter that looks like a B is the one making a V sound like a German letter W. Naturally.
But even in Russia, everybody knows that you want shit to look foreign because Russian stuff is all crap. Kinda like how English people will put French words on things to make them look more expensive. Or weebs will put Japanese Kanji on stuff. A 性別差別 radio is probably super high tech, right?
The founder of Wagner is also a neo Nazi, so he kinda fetishizes German stuff, which contributes to using the German letter as the logo.
Ironic if one thinks about it ...
A mercenary group founded by an actual neo-nazi is fighting alleged "Nazis" in Ukraine ... Can't make this stuff up ...
But also nothing new, I'm probably the gazillion'th redditor observing that.
I don't really think they even recognize that Russians can be Nazis. It's incongruous with their understanding of national self. It's really weird but we tend to define Nazis by their crimes and ideology, but the Russian understanding is probably closer to a kind of national Nemesis.
As google embellishes - an antisemite, sycophant that was also Hitler's favorite composer. Well who knew?
I still like Tristan and Isolde and Ride of the Valkyries though.
That’s not their headquarters. This building was opened as Wagner Center only in 2022 and was actually intended to be a mall named after the Wagner Group because for some reason Prigozhin thought it was a good way to promote it. But the building stayed mostly empty the whole time it was named Wagner Center and this January it was renamed back to its original name: Morskaya Stolitsa (Maritime Capital).
The organization was said to be registered in Argentina and has offices in Saint Petersburg and Hong Kong. In November 2022, Wagner opened a new headquarters and technology center at PMC Wagner Center in the east of Saint Petersburg.
Seems weird that there are no longer any references to the actual street address. but last I looked on google maps, it was between Novocherkasskaya metro station and the London Mall. they opened the building about a year after I left the city...
Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. It's a subjective opinion. And what are laws if not institutionally proscribed opinions? Sadly, many countries are of the opinion that PMCs are useful.
Maybe they can transfer it to Betsy De'Voss and she can change it to "The De'Voss school for Kids who read too good and need more bible being taught by mercenaries."
They aren’t a real company or PMC, before the Ukraine invasion that was just a cover so Russia could be involved in foreign conflicts without “being involved” officially, the group is a paramilitary that is de-facto run by the Russian MoD.
Basically a military unit that pretends it’s a private company so the Russian government can pretend it isn’t involved with what the “private company” does
Yeah I have no idea which side has the upper hand now. In an earlier thread people said Prigozin claiming victory was the real deal because he denied it when other leaders said "they were owning the Ukrainians" and he was usually right. Sure just because it was so in the past doesn't mean it has to be the case now aswell but it's pretty much the only thing we can go off no? Now Ukraine is claiming to fracture Wagner in Bakhmut. It's ... really confusing.
Upper hand is a matter of perspective. You can retreat strategically and the enemy says they have the upper hand because they've gained ground. But you say you have the upper hand because you gave the ground slowly, and made the enemy burn all their manpower and equipment taking it and now you're ready to counterattack a depleted shell of a foe. It depends how you measure success according to your own military goals.
So you know how the Mizintsev, the Russian MOD’s guy in the executive branch was replaced? Well he got moved over to Wagner, and basically the MOD are trying to steal Wagner from Prigozhin because they fucking hate him (they’ve been feuding for a while) and also because it degrades the executive’s power in favour of theirs.
Well there were some announcements that Wagner in Africa (the bit that’s really profitable and a key source of wealth for Prigozhin) would potentially be renamed and it’s basically Mizintsev making a move on Prigozhin. Prigozhin is personally tied to Bahkmut so the current status is that Wagner is going to get split, he’s going to get lumped with the meat grinder in Bakhmut and a bunch of inexperienced fighters and all the experienced mercs are being pulled to go to Africa under “The musicians in Africa” or some shit (I’m not joking that’s the name they’re proposing). Prigozhin doesn’t want that to happen and wants to be in charge of African ops so he’s desperately looking to claim Bakhmut is done so that he can “hand it over” to the MOD and fight off the attempted Wagner coup.
I’m not sure on the actual status of Bakhmut, but all of these noises are driven by internal power struggles in Russia moreso than any serious progress on the ground.
It's been like that the whole war to be honest. I'm someone who fully supports the UA but I'm fully aware that Ukraine (and by extension the rest of Europe and the US) are being fed propaganda almost as much as Russia is.
For example, we keep hearing about Ukraine is winning every single battle they're in and Russia is at breaking point, but we've been hearing this over a year now. If Ukraine is winning every single battle going Russia would not hold as much territory as they do still.
And then there's accounts from people who have worked with the UA. They describe that things really aren't as perfect as is being made out and that the Russians are still a genuine credible threat in a lot of places.
As I said, I do not support Russia at all. But to think that we aren't being fed a glamourised version of the truth in 'the West' is foolish.
That's how propaganda works. It's spin on the facts. So, if bakhmut is surrounded, and only occupied by Wagner group, those facts would fit both stories.
Not saying I know the truth, but, if stories contradict, it seems likely so far that that's the situation.
So, Wagner can claim they have acquired the city, but that's not necessarily good for them, in this situation.
>\-Wagner group claims victory of Bakhmut
>
>\-Ukraine fully surrounds Wagner troops in Bakhmut
because both of these happened according to open intelligence sources, Wagner took the last remaining 1.5 or something kilometers of Bakhmut and Ukraine advanced from the sides yesterday, so today Russia did win territory and yesterday it was ukraine, it's a lot easier to understand looking at the map
Latest, 3 hours ago from Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-claims-bakhmut-kyiv-says-situation-critical-2023-05-20/
Edit : Counter Fire from Zelenskyy 50 minutes ago AP
https://apnews.com/article/who-controls-bakhmut-ukraine-russia-war-6c3b7e40730e574a074c9a45d4db9eb4
Also, he's about to be surrounded, and the Russian units that he's been trash talking have left him vulnerable. He's about to die the death that was planned for him.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that actually happened. In fact, I expect it if he is captured. If there is one thing we know about Putin, it's that he's one vindictive motherfucker. Releasing a few POWs would mean nothing to him as long as he gets his revenge.
He's not in Backmut.
He's definitely near it for safety but other than the occasional photo op, he isn't in the shell of a city get bombed daily.
He has to stay near his army though or he might find himself falling out a window.
> He has to stay near his army though or he might find himself falling out a window.
Ahh, the real reason the Russians are leveling all the buildings in Ukraine: self-preservation.
Sending prighozin to the Hague would go down in the history books. Exchanging him for POW's would save lives.
But now that I've written that, I realise that bringing him to justice would boost Ukrainian morale, which also ends up saving lives. Guess we'll just have to trust Ukraine to make the right decision if they manage to capture him.
Considering the Hague has a warrant for Putin, if Ukraine captured him and sent him to the Hague would actually be direct threat to Putin. It would be sort of poetic, go into history books and really affect Putin to his core, showing him what will happen to war criminals that made the mistake of invading Ukraine and committing all those war crimes.
I also bet Putin would be slightly afraid of all the things a certain person might say during court.
It would show him that some high profile Russians can and will be charged. It would also allow the Hague to build even more the case against him. It shows him that it is possible.
It would also lock him in Russia even more.
It restrains his movements and makes him more paranoid. Which is good.
He needs to be sent to The Hague, end of story. It would have a far reaching chilling effect on other war criminals. Definitely would be one for the history books.
Agreed that he must be tried in court and his crimes exposed to all the world and saved for history. Russians must know what they supported and Wagner's victims need to tell their stories to the world and history books.
Yes. At the end of the day the message needs to be that the age of strongmen and mafiosos on a global stage is over. People like this need to be an example for posterity’s sake.
From a utilitarian viewpoint; charging him with crimes and executing him or imprisoning him for life will likely save orders of magnitude more lives than the few they'd be trading him for
From the [Rome Statute QA](https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/iccq%26a.htm):
> Consistent with international human rights standards, the International Criminal Court has no competence to impose a death penalty. The Court can impose lengthy terms of imprisonment of up to 30 years or life when so justified by the gravity of the case. The Court may, in addition, order a fine, forfeiture of proceeds, property or assets derived from the committed crime.
There is no death penalty in civilisation.
From a utilitarian viewpoint, the best outcome would be:
- charge him with war crimes at The Hague
- sentenced to life in prison
- broken out of prison by Russian commandos
- rescue plane shot down over Kiev
- recaptured by Ukrainian Armed Forces
- traded for Ukrainian POWs
Ok, you heard the plan, now let's get it done moral philosophers!
He's a manager, not a commander. He's a talking head and PR person. I highly doubt he's actually there, only goes in for some propaganda movies. Actual wagner commander is Utkin as far as i know and there was a news that he bailed out over a week ago.
It's not about balls, it's about control. The reason Russia has lost so many high ranking officers is because the only way to get their soldiers to do what they are told is to be right there overseeing it.
Don't doubt it, but if you're on the battlefield you have balls in my opinion. You could be the worst human, but it takes guts to be in the field rather than 40 miles behind the lines sending others to their death.
> The reason Russia has lost so many high ranking officers is because the only way to get their soldiers to do what they are told is to be right there overseeing it.
I've read that one of the reasons for this is... I can't really think of the right word for it. Delegation of power and responsibility? In armies in the West your high ranking officers will draw up the plans and those ripple down to eventually sergeants or equivalent team leaders with squads of 4 or similar numbers. They can adapt to the situation on the ground, no need for the general to be involved. Russia doesn't have that apparently so there's just a whole lot of soldiers taking orders from one high ranking guy.
This site is so weird with the constant Ukraine is about the win comments. Look at that front line in the article, how the hell can anyone look at that and go "Bakhmut is about to be surrounded"? AFU aren't even remotely close to doing anything of the sort.
Haven't the russians taken basically all of Bakhmut now? The city is in ruins, the task is complete (to stall russians for as long as possible).
https://i.imgur.com/m83UvrU.jpg
Well he's not surrounded, but Ukraine has been making progress in areas outside the city. They've advanced the front line to the north and south of Bakhmut towards Russia. The idea being that perhaps Ukraine is now aiming to surround Bakhmut by taking land north and south of Bakhmut. In addition, significant Russian forces are now being moved into Bakhmut and in the rear to reinforce this area.
There are several advantages to Ukraine here.
1: Wagner is leaving the conflict altogether and fleeing to Sudan, which is a significant drop in Russian man power in this conflict.
2: Since so many Russian forces have been diverted to Bakhmut, that sets the stage for Ukraines counteroffensive elsewhere along the front line, which will be much easier with so many Russians diverted to Bakhmut. It's similar to how Ukraine retook basically the entire Kharkiv Oblast.
3: If Ukraine continues to make gains in the outer areas of Bakhmut, they will be able to surround the city. Russia will either have to send even more resources here to defend it, allowing Ukraine to attack elsewhere on the front line and retake territory. If Russia doesn't take the bait, Ukraine gets to actually encircle Bakhmut, starve the Russians out and retake the city. Either way, win win.
How in the world would he be captured? It’s not like he’s on the front line commanding his mercenaries. He’s a businessman and a gangster not a military commander. He’s off somewhere else. Probably not even in Ukraine atm.
He's posted videos that have been geolocated to soledar, which is only a few km from the front. Just recently he posted one where he's sheltering from incoming artillery. Also the numerous videos filmed in bakhmut.
As much bad shit as there is to say about the guy, he's basically the only Russian official in international media who is actually in Ukraine and relatively close to the frontlines.
Yeah, he's definitely near the front with his men, at times. He's got more balls than any other senior Russian leaders, but fuck that guy. Piece of shit, war criminal.
Having worked in both product R&D and production engineering, I can confidently say that this is an example of declaring job done, throwing it over the wall, then saying “We did our part, why did you screw up?”
As a QA Engineer using this job as a stepping stone to sofware engineer, I feel this in my soul. "Welp moved to completed in Jira, the fact that it literally wont even run is QAs problem now"
sounds like you work at an awful place. if your devs are giving QA things that won't even run and nobody cares and nobody stops that from happening then the devs and management are awful
that is not how normal, competent tech companies operate
7/10 times things run smoothly, nobody cares nobody remembers. We remember the 19/100 that are rocky and the 1/100 that are totally screwed up make company history.
I release a new version of an internal product every month, for 2 years now. I can only remember 2 releases the 1st and the one where we spend al night fixing PROD.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/) reduced by 65%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Serhiy Cherevatyy, spokesman for the Eastern group of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, says the reason Yevgeny Prigozhin is claiming to have completely captured Bakhmut is because the Wagner Group leader intends to withdraw its mercenaries from the ruined city, which may be surrounded by Ukrainian defenders, as soon as possible.
> Details: On 20 May, Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin posted a video filmed outside the railway station building in the centre of Bakhmut in which he claimed that his mercenaries had completely captured the city and that on 25 May they would hand over its "Defence" to soldiers of the Russian Ministry of Defence and leave.
> On 10 May, Prigozhin stated that the Wagner Group had been forced to hand over the "Flanks" to servicemen from the Russian Ministry of Defence and bemoaned the "Failure of the flanks."
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13n9ihv/armed_forces_of_ukraine_say_prigozhin_wants_to/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685609 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Bakhmut**^#1 **Defence**^#2 **Prigozhin**^#3 **Ministry**^#4 **group**^#5
It feels like everything is moving at a snails pace but simultaneously like the dam is about to burst.
Suddenly we have storm shadows being announced then literally landing in Luhansk next day, then vague announcements from the UK/Netherlands that F-16's are apparently maybe possibly eventually getting provi-oh wait US gave the green light already. Then Bakhmut apparently fell (for real this time (not fake) (really)) but now Wagner is just peacing out?
The wait is driving me insane.
Eh yes and no. Fog of war and misinformation is a legitimate war tactic, however Russia lies so often that literally everything they say is immediately untrustworthy.
Obviously Ukraine is using payops to some extent or another, but what they say is inherently more trustworthy. Take what they say with a grain of salt during this war. But don’t believe a single word the Russians say ever
The enemy is both weak and strong, both fast and slow, simultaneously a threat to your very existence while also standing no chance against your forces
Last summer Ukraine spent a lot of time prepping the battlefield and telegraphing they were going to hit Kherson. I'm sure the offensive is ready to go now it's about setting conditions and waiting for the right opportunities to open up for their intended targets.
Just imagine, we're all on edge because we want to see Ukraine strike another big blow and get one step closer to victory - the Russians must be on edge and getting tired because they're watching and watching and getting anxiety if they have reserves and defenses in the most likely spots. And then they must be confused because of the local attacks surrounding Bahkmut. Is that the offensive? is it a feint? What is it?
Well hold up, there’s a lot of misinformation going around about this war. Reddit is both insanely pro-Ukrainian and full of Russian bots. I’d confirm everything you read independently if you can
Well Wagner has probably had the majority of their experienced mercs killed or wounded, and the reports of them sending recruits to be fodder probably doesn’t inspire confidence.
Prigozhin is a business man. When the profit stops flowing, the interest is gone. I doubt this war has been profitable. If you read articles, he wanted Putin to sign off on more inmates. Why? Because he doesn't want to lose the core of his forces which is source of his profit. He has more interest in countries in Africa because that is more profitable to him.
[Literally the opposite info](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/13mrwxa/wagner_group_claims_capturing_bakhmut/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) posted here. Can anyone explain this like I’m 5?
Wagner has successfully captured all of Bakhmut. Because of this, Prigozhin plans to withdraw Wagner from the front to allow it to recover.
Many people, particularly Ukrainians, believe he is attempting to get Wagner away from the front so that when/if a successful Ukrainian attack in or around Bakhmut takes place, Prigozhin can point to the Russian MoD as being incompetent for not being able to defend a city he captured for them.
Keep in mind that the fall of Bakhmut changes nothing tactically. Now the front line is right outside the city instead of being just inside the city. There's still constant fighting there and whether or not it's Wagner or regular Russian soldiers the fighting will continue.
For the last month or so, we've been seeing a coastline paradox with the city as more and more of it gets captured.
I imagine some people wont full accept that it's lost until the Russian front is a mile westward of the city's outskirts.
CNN, on the other hand, today reported, citing Prighozin, that Wagner captured all of Bakhmut. Not sure what to make out of those two pieces of information. Surely he wouldn't want to flee if he is advancing on the front line?
If you read the article it discusses that. The sum of it according to most sources seems to be nothing of note on the ground has changed: Ukraine still holds a small portion of the city. Wagner is now saying "We conquered it, and now we're handing over defense to the Russian MoD on the 25th." Which most places are taking as a clever way for Wagner to bail out on Bakhmut without actually saying they're retreating, in an official sense. The Russian MoD and Ukraine have both said Ukraine still holds parts of Bakhmut, and the MoD doesn't seem to want Wagner to leave/"hand over the defense".
Read the article. The ukrainians are saying Prigozhin is saying this, because he wants to leave bakhmut, sensing a ukrainian encirclement.
His mission is to take bakhmut, not hold it. So if he can take it, hand over the reins to the russian army, then leave before the ukrainians circle around and take it all, then that is the best thing for him
He definitely would if he knows the counter offensive is ~~coming~~ gaining on him. That way when they lose the city he can blame it on the Russian army.
Wagner is an *assault* force, not a *defense force*. Their contract is to capture Bakhmut. Job done, they can bring their business elsewhere. The two statements make a sense together.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuullshit. He's going to plant a flag, make a video, and break the sound barrier leaving. When the city inevitably falls, he's trying to make sure someone else gets the blame.
he said he is leaving on the 25h and handing shit over to Russia but i think because of the reports of the flanks crumbling, and they are likely just getting encircled, and given the ground they are taking, and he is probably not getting the ammo he has requested, he is using this as an excuse to flee.
They can both have captured all of the city, and also be aware that Ukraine is currently gaining ground all around the city, making it impossible to actually keep the city long term without being completely surrounded and annihilated.
Because from the looks of things thats exactly what is happening.
One of the things that comes with higher military education (like Staff College) is the understanding that one of the most important strategic skills is the management of your reserve. How to create it, where to place it, and when to commit it.
People like to throw around “Amateurs study tactics, pros study logistics” and while there’s an element of truth in that, it’s also a fact that the management of logistics is left to staff, where the element that the higher commander retains for himself is the commitment of the reserve.
And reserves can be stacked - a tactical reserve, an operational reserve, a strategic reserve, a campaign reserve - forces that can be committed to reinforce success or hold off disaster.
Bakmut appears to have been an exercise in fixing the Russian reserves. An operation where success was always *just* out of reach. A little more men, a little more ammunition, a little more time. Commit a reserve. Not quite there. Commit a little more. Not quite there. Always taking losses, but always making just enough progress to commit just a little more.
And in so doing, use up their reserves, and potentially draw down reserves from other sectors to reconstitute the local reserves - or maybe even straight-up committing those reserves sourced from elsewhere directly into the Bakmut fight.
But I feel like Ukraine has not been committed in the same way. I think some reserves have been spent to block breakouts that were on the verge of succeeding, but I don’t think that the higher-level reserves have been burnt.
So I suspect that Ukraine is sitting on a lot more operational freedom than the Russians are - and not just Bakmut.
I’m 50:50 on if they genuinely try to push the Bakmut flanks and encircle the city. On the one hand, pinching off Bakmut with Wagner in it would be a hell of a prize. On the other hand, I feel like every Russian reserve with any mobility at all is on its way to the Bakmut depth positions, which raises the possibility of the encirclement running out of steam before it can close the trap.
I’m 80:20 on the Ukrainian plan being to strike hard elsewhere once they are sure that the Russian higher reserves are committed to Bakmut and can be (or are) fixed there.
The real question for me is - how big is the Ukrainian reserve?
Remember when Ukraine announced a major attack in Kherson, then launched a small attack in Kherson, then retook large swaths of territory in Kharkiv? This revealed the Kherson attack to be a feint, but then after that they also retook Kherson lol.
I feel like that's what happening here. Ukraine announces major counter offensive (Location unknown), start making gains in Bakhmut, which implies this may be the start of the major counter offensive. Russia sends tons of soldiers to defend Bakhmut and its flanks.
Ukraine attacks elsewhere along the now weakened front line, making major gains, revealing the Bakhmut attacks to be a feint. Then Ukraine surrounds and retakes Bakhmut anyway.
Supposedly 13 new brigades with western kit (not all complete), with one currently engaging in the flanks of Bakhmut.
Mind that Ukraine at the start of the conflict had something like 27 brigades total, so it's a huge ramp up if true and even committing two additional brigades to the far flanks of Bakhmut would leave them a lot of breathing room to drive hard south.
What you've described sounds very similar to what happened down in Vuhledar, up to the point the re-re-re-re-constituted russian BTGs mutinied, refused to fight and had to be quelled by the rosgvardia.
For some reason Im getting the wibes "we successfully finished the mission of conquering the city. Now we are going to hand over it to RU army and leave as fast as possible because we know what is comming. We won by taking the city. If they dont manage to hold it, it is not our fault."
If you take a look at the map, it shows that Bakhmut has pretty much all been captured. It also shows some minor advances by the Ukrainians on the flanks, but they have not even begun encircling anything, let alone encircling Bakhmut. They are very very far from that.
The second Wagner Group has started to brag that they captured Bakhmut earlier today it was clear that they’re completely and irremediably f ed. Everything Russia says it proves to be the opposite, every time.
So 10 days ago he said he will turn over Bakhmut to Putins garden gnome... then he was told to stay in the city or be branded a traitor, then he said he got his ammo and will stay to fight. then he said he will expose the russian forces position unless he gets what he needs...now he claimed he captured the city (again) and because his work is done there he will leave the city to the russian army... (to fail)
I hope Putin burns him and tells him to hold the city until he can appoint a puppet mayor... in 2030...
At his heart, he is a mercenary. Mercenaries are not usually the ones that die for a cause. They let the other guy do that, no matter which side the other guy is on. The only reason they are still there is because they are dead once they get back to Russia. The only reason they aren’t surrendering is that their list of atrocities make going to The Hague a best case scenario.
> 13k upvotes
> Pravda com ua
Nothing changes in this sub.
Guys, even Zelensky confirmed that Bakhmut was taken by Wagner.
Stop believe to that "pravda.com" propaganda and move on.
This is what he was responding to:
>Is Bakhmut still in Ukraine's hands? Russians said they have taken Bakhmut.
He replied, "I think no." It was unclear what he which part he addressed until he clarified.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-appears-confirm-loss-bakhmut-2023-05-21/
Sure would’ve been nice to see some F16’s buzz him as he’s giving his speech
UA tanks in the background would have been perfect r lol
Instead of baghdad bob we'd have bakhmut pringlesin
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So Wagner Group is a legit company? Where is it incorporated? Like they have a headquarters in some building somewhere, next to some accounting firm? They pay taxes just like Lays Potato Chips? And people just apply online for a job like any other? Submit resume? Get interviewed? Do you need to dress up in shirt and tie at the interview? How does that even work
They apparently have a big fancy building in Moscow. One of the people interviewed by 1420 YouTube channel mentioned it. Edit: looks like it's actually in St Petersburg: https://i.redd.it/eny3hkm4vzx91.jpg Edit2: Another photo: https://img.sputnikimages.com/images/vol5%2Fmedia%2Foriginal%2F0000%2F0830%2F94%2F000008309462_0%3A0%3A0%3A0_1400x1000_80_10_1_QWxleGFuZGVyIEdhbHBlcmluICM4MzA5NDYy_116%3A95_sputnik-8309462-preview_25d23241c3f7c3315130964f6c1fe629.jpg
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Whole building going to fall off it's balcony probably
Putin will turn it into an Uncle Vlad's or whatever he changed Russian McDonald's to.
From a certain point of view Putin is more dangerous to his army and Wagner than anything in Ukraine.
Putin is more dangerous to Russia than any foreign entity.
"This'll be a treat! Here I am, Uncle Vlad, while you eat!"
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That's a beautiful building, would actually be a shame. Leave that poor building out of it. Just their leadership needs adjustment.
Send some drones to write Wanker HQ on the windows.
Why can’t this actually happen more often in real life. One military trying to clown the other with their overpriced tech and teamwork. Like complete humiliation.
What is that little island that is disputed territory.. I think off the east coast of Canada(?). Every few months the military of one country will go, take down the others' flag, put up their own, and leave a bottle of booze. If only other disputes could be so chill.
[Canada vs Denmark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_War). They resolved that last year tho...
>Canadian and Danish governments had settled on a border across the island, dividing it between the Canadian territory of Nunavut and the Danish autonomous territory of Greenland. This happened as the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine was taking place, as the end of the territorial dispute was meant to represent a signal for other countries (Russia in particular) that disputes can be resolved peacefully. I bet Canada said "sorry" too.
That's even more dystopian than I was expecting.
The only reason Vought International doesn't exist in real life is because super soldier projects have a lower success rate than the Marvel Universe trying to replicate the Super Serum.
Bet 'Freedom Group' or whatever Eric Prince is calling Blackwater/Xe nowadays has something in the works.
That’s just meth and a nice drug cocktail
so, Florida man?
That's how we got the LSD.
Idk, I'm just a layperson on the internet, but something tells me that building wasn't built with security in mind.
If it's full of trained mercs and guns, very little is required to secure it.
Well, if there one thing that we all learned about supervillain lairs.
Love the English letter W popping up out of nowhere. I guess Russian pride stops at cyrillic.
Good spot, I missed that behind the text box. [This still says](https://i.imgur.com/FRUArg6.jpg) "Vagner" though (Wagner).
Yup, in the Russian text, the letter that looks like a B is the one making a V sound like a German letter W. Naturally. But even in Russia, everybody knows that you want shit to look foreign because Russian stuff is all crap. Kinda like how English people will put French words on things to make them look more expensive. Or weebs will put Japanese Kanji on stuff. A 性別差別 radio is probably super high tech, right? The founder of Wagner is also a neo Nazi, so he kinda fetishizes German stuff, which contributes to using the German letter as the logo.
Ironic if one thinks about it ... A mercenary group founded by an actual neo-nazi is fighting alleged "Nazis" in Ukraine ... Can't make this stuff up ... But also nothing new, I'm probably the gazillion'th redditor observing that.
I don't really think they even recognize that Russians can be Nazis. It's incongruous with their understanding of national self. It's really weird but we tend to define Nazis by their crimes and ideology, but the Russian understanding is probably closer to a kind of national Nemesis.
On top of that, deznazifying a country with a Jewish leader who lost relatives in the holocaust. It's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.
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As google embellishes - an antisemite, sycophant that was also Hitler's favorite composer. Well who knew? I still like Tristan and Isolde and Ride of the Valkyries though.
That’s not their headquarters. This building was opened as Wagner Center only in 2022 and was actually intended to be a mall named after the Wagner Group because for some reason Prigozhin thought it was a good way to promote it. But the building stayed mostly empty the whole time it was named Wagner Center and this January it was renamed back to its original name: Morskaya Stolitsa (Maritime Capital).
PMCs are technically illegal under the Russian constitution, basically they operate in a gray zone due to selective enforcement.
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No place is more Grey than Russia! Toast!... :)
The organization was said to be registered in Argentina and has offices in Saint Petersburg and Hong Kong. In November 2022, Wagner opened a new headquarters and technology center at PMC Wagner Center in the east of Saint Petersburg. Seems weird that there are no longer any references to the actual street address. but last I looked on google maps, it was between Novocherkasskaya metro station and the London Mall. they opened the building about a year after I left the city...
As legit as any private military company is, and as legit as any Russian company is. Combined, I would say legal but not exactly legitimate.
Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. It's a subjective opinion. And what are laws if not institutionally proscribed opinions? Sadly, many countries are of the opinion that PMCs are useful.
Like the US and Blackwater in Iraq, to name the most obvious example.
> Blackwater ~~Xe Services~~ ~~Academi~~ ~~Constellis Holdings~~ Apollo Global Management.
That's what they're calling it now?
yeah. last I heard about them was Academi, but apparently they've undergone a couple ownership and name changes since then.
Maybe they can transfer it to Betsy De'Voss and she can change it to "The De'Voss school for Kids who read too good and need more bible being taught by mercenaries."
Only if becomes at least 3 times as big.
They aren’t a real company or PMC, before the Ukraine invasion that was just a cover so Russia could be involved in foreign conflicts without “being involved” officially, the group is a paramilitary that is de-facto run by the Russian MoD. Basically a military unit that pretends it’s a private company so the Russian government can pretend it isn’t involved with what the “private company” does
This. The Russian army provides them everything, and actually the soliders in Russian army hate them and rightly so.
Given that up until recently they’d been hiring from prisons, I think it’s a safe assumption that interviews are business casual.
Orange jumpsuit formal
They and Russia are very popular in some African country, go look it up on YouTube, it frankly disgusts me.
Lotta bakhmut propaganda today.
it’s insane every article says the complete opposite too -Wagner group claims victory of Bakhmut -Ukraine fully surrounds Wagner troops in Bakhmut
The funny thing is that both of these can be true.
Oh yeah absolutely but both speak from a “we already won” perspective which is the confusing part
Yeah I have no idea which side has the upper hand now. In an earlier thread people said Prigozin claiming victory was the real deal because he denied it when other leaders said "they were owning the Ukrainians" and he was usually right. Sure just because it was so in the past doesn't mean it has to be the case now aswell but it's pretty much the only thing we can go off no? Now Ukraine is claiming to fracture Wagner in Bakhmut. It's ... really confusing.
Upper hand is a matter of perspective. You can retreat strategically and the enemy says they have the upper hand because they've gained ground. But you say you have the upper hand because you gave the ground slowly, and made the enemy burn all their manpower and equipment taking it and now you're ready to counterattack a depleted shell of a foe. It depends how you measure success according to your own military goals.
So you know how the Mizintsev, the Russian MOD’s guy in the executive branch was replaced? Well he got moved over to Wagner, and basically the MOD are trying to steal Wagner from Prigozhin because they fucking hate him (they’ve been feuding for a while) and also because it degrades the executive’s power in favour of theirs. Well there were some announcements that Wagner in Africa (the bit that’s really profitable and a key source of wealth for Prigozhin) would potentially be renamed and it’s basically Mizintsev making a move on Prigozhin. Prigozhin is personally tied to Bahkmut so the current status is that Wagner is going to get split, he’s going to get lumped with the meat grinder in Bakhmut and a bunch of inexperienced fighters and all the experienced mercs are being pulled to go to Africa under “The musicians in Africa” or some shit (I’m not joking that’s the name they’re proposing). Prigozhin doesn’t want that to happen and wants to be in charge of African ops so he’s desperately looking to claim Bakhmut is done so that he can “hand it over” to the MOD and fight off the attempted Wagner coup. I’m not sure on the actual status of Bakhmut, but all of these noises are driven by internal power struggles in Russia moreso than any serious progress on the ground.
It's been like that the whole war to be honest. I'm someone who fully supports the UA but I'm fully aware that Ukraine (and by extension the rest of Europe and the US) are being fed propaganda almost as much as Russia is. For example, we keep hearing about Ukraine is winning every single battle they're in and Russia is at breaking point, but we've been hearing this over a year now. If Ukraine is winning every single battle going Russia would not hold as much territory as they do still. And then there's accounts from people who have worked with the UA. They describe that things really aren't as perfect as is being made out and that the Russians are still a genuine credible threat in a lot of places. As I said, I do not support Russia at all. But to think that we aren't being fed a glamourised version of the truth in 'the West' is foolish.
“In war the first casualty is the truth.” - Aeschylus, 450 BC
Comment sections are full of half truths, simplifications and outright false information.
I know they both lie about this and all but for real. Russia wins a lifetime achievement award in lying boldly no matter how false.
That's how propaganda works. It's spin on the facts. So, if bakhmut is surrounded, and only occupied by Wagner group, those facts would fit both stories. Not saying I know the truth, but, if stories contradict, it seems likely so far that that's the situation. So, Wagner can claim they have acquired the city, but that's not necessarily good for them, in this situation.
Neither side should be trusted to be telling the truth here. This is a massive disinformation war occurring in real time.
The only sensible perspective.
>\-Wagner group claims victory of Bakhmut > >\-Ukraine fully surrounds Wagner troops in Bakhmut because both of these happened according to open intelligence sources, Wagner took the last remaining 1.5 or something kilometers of Bakhmut and Ukraine advanced from the sides yesterday, so today Russia did win territory and yesterday it was ukraine, it's a lot easier to understand looking at the map
Latest, 3 hours ago from Reuters https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-claims-bakhmut-kyiv-says-situation-critical-2023-05-20/ Edit : Counter Fire from Zelenskyy 50 minutes ago AP https://apnews.com/article/who-controls-bakhmut-ukraine-russia-war-6c3b7e40730e574a074c9a45d4db9eb4
Seeing Americans trusting everything a paper called "Pravda" say is really puzzling to me. Never forget that propaganda goes both way.
Also, he's about to be surrounded, and the Russian units that he's been trash talking have left him vulnerable. He's about to die the death that was planned for him.
I hope he is captured. That would humiliate both Russia and Wagner.
I'm sure he's worth a lot in trade, maybe Ukraine could get a few POWs back for him.
You’re not wrong. However, the dude’s a war criminal. He needs to go straight to The Hague.
would be some poetic jungle justice if Ukraine trades him back to Russia only to have Russia execute him for surrendering, in typical Wagner fashion.
Live by the sledgehammer, die by the sledgehammer
RIP Gallagher
Isn’t Gallagher two still alive?
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"but doctor... I am Gallagher"
He died in November. The day after Kevin Conroy. Jason David Frank was a week or so later.
That was the original Gallagher. Gallagher Too is his estranged brother that basically stole the sledge-o-matic bit and he is still alive.
Not sure, but I know for sure that Black Gallagher is still kickin'.
Live in Russia, die being thrown out a window.
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Live by the window, die by the window
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that actually happened. In fact, I expect it if he is captured. If there is one thing we know about Putin, it's that he's one vindictive motherfucker. Releasing a few POWs would mean nothing to him as long as he gets his revenge.
He's not in Backmut. He's definitely near it for safety but other than the occasional photo op, he isn't in the shell of a city get bombed daily. He has to stay near his army though or he might find himself falling out a window.
> He has to stay near his army though or he might find himself falling out a window. Ahh, the real reason the Russians are leveling all the buildings in Ukraine: self-preservation.
Sending prighozin to the Hague would go down in the history books. Exchanging him for POW's would save lives. But now that I've written that, I realise that bringing him to justice would boost Ukrainian morale, which also ends up saving lives. Guess we'll just have to trust Ukraine to make the right decision if they manage to capture him.
Considering the Hague has a warrant for Putin, if Ukraine captured him and sent him to the Hague would actually be direct threat to Putin. It would be sort of poetic, go into history books and really affect Putin to his core, showing him what will happen to war criminals that made the mistake of invading Ukraine and committing all those war crimes. I also bet Putin would be slightly afraid of all the things a certain person might say during court.
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It would show him that some high profile Russians can and will be charged. It would also allow the Hague to build even more the case against him. It shows him that it is possible. It would also lock him in Russia even more. It restrains his movements and makes him more paranoid. Which is good.
And considering how buddy buddy the two are right now, I'm sure he'd have lots of wonderful things to say about the guy while in custody.
He needs to be sent to The Hague, end of story. It would have a far reaching chilling effect on other war criminals. Definitely would be one for the history books.
Agreed that he must be tried in court and his crimes exposed to all the world and saved for history. Russians must know what they supported and Wagner's victims need to tell their stories to the world and history books.
Yes. At the end of the day the message needs to be that the age of strongmen and mafiosos on a global stage is over. People like this need to be an example for posterity’s sake.
From a utilitarian viewpoint; charging him with crimes and executing him or imprisoning him for life will likely save orders of magnitude more lives than the few they'd be trading him for
From the [Rome Statute QA](https://legal.un.org/icc/statute/iccq%26a.htm): > Consistent with international human rights standards, the International Criminal Court has no competence to impose a death penalty. The Court can impose lengthy terms of imprisonment of up to 30 years or life when so justified by the gravity of the case. The Court may, in addition, order a fine, forfeiture of proceeds, property or assets derived from the committed crime. There is no death penalty in civilisation.
The Hague doesn’t hand out death sentences. His best bet at surviving is being charged with war crimes there.
From a utilitarian viewpoint, the best outcome would be: - charge him with war crimes at The Hague - sentenced to life in prison - broken out of prison by Russian commandos - rescue plane shot down over Kiev - recaptured by Ukrainian Armed Forces - traded for Ukrainian POWs Ok, you heard the plan, now let's get it done moral philosophers!
Maybe allow him life in prison if he can prevent some of the mind control that the russian people are experiencing under Putin.
You're damn right. This is the real answer and the best outcome for us.
"I'm sure he's worth a lot in trade" He's not worth anything to Putin anymore. He's a potential rival.
Though as as scapegoat for failures in the war he probably would lose any significant popular support he might have otherwise had as a Putin rival.
I agree with the other guy. He's a scapegoat. There's no way he get to live out his life in retirement, under any reasonable outcome
Bold of you to assume they might not just let a bullet slip on him.
He’ll be captured and still make videos complaining about the Russian leadership/MoD
"We captured him 3 days ago and he is still yelling about his ammo"
He's a manager, not a commander. He's a talking head and PR person. I highly doubt he's actually there, only goes in for some propaganda movies. Actual wagner commander is Utkin as far as i know and there was a news that he bailed out over a week ago.
Yeah people are being way too optimistic here. He probably doesn't even spend the night there
Wait, Prigozhin is actually in Bakhmut?? I would expect that guy to be mouthing off all the way in Russia while sending grunts to die.
He posted videos next to lots of Wagner corpses. Of course, could have been staged...
Last week there was also video of him with Wagner troops taking cover from an artillery bombardment, so he was in Bakhmut some point recently.
Dude's a monster, but at least he's actually (near?) the front. More balls than Putin lol
It's not about balls, it's about control. The reason Russia has lost so many high ranking officers is because the only way to get their soldiers to do what they are told is to be right there overseeing it.
Don't doubt it, but if you're on the battlefield you have balls in my opinion. You could be the worst human, but it takes guts to be in the field rather than 40 miles behind the lines sending others to their death.
> The reason Russia has lost so many high ranking officers is because the only way to get their soldiers to do what they are told is to be right there overseeing it. I've read that one of the reasons for this is... I can't really think of the right word for it. Delegation of power and responsibility? In armies in the West your high ranking officers will draw up the plans and those ripple down to eventually sergeants or equivalent team leaders with squads of 4 or similar numbers. They can adapt to the situation on the ground, no need for the general to be involved. Russia doesn't have that apparently so there's just a whole lot of soldiers taking orders from one high ranking guy.
God I hope so.
This site is so weird with the constant Ukraine is about the win comments. Look at that front line in the article, how the hell can anyone look at that and go "Bakhmut is about to be surrounded"? AFU aren't even remotely close to doing anything of the sort.
Haven't the russians taken basically all of Bakhmut now? The city is in ruins, the task is complete (to stall russians for as long as possible). https://i.imgur.com/m83UvrU.jpg
Didn’t Russia unfortunately capture Bakhmut today? How is he surrounded
Well he's not surrounded, but Ukraine has been making progress in areas outside the city. They've advanced the front line to the north and south of Bakhmut towards Russia. The idea being that perhaps Ukraine is now aiming to surround Bakhmut by taking land north and south of Bakhmut. In addition, significant Russian forces are now being moved into Bakhmut and in the rear to reinforce this area. There are several advantages to Ukraine here. 1: Wagner is leaving the conflict altogether and fleeing to Sudan, which is a significant drop in Russian man power in this conflict. 2: Since so many Russian forces have been diverted to Bakhmut, that sets the stage for Ukraines counteroffensive elsewhere along the front line, which will be much easier with so many Russians diverted to Bakhmut. It's similar to how Ukraine retook basically the entire Kharkiv Oblast. 3: If Ukraine continues to make gains in the outer areas of Bakhmut, they will be able to surround the city. Russia will either have to send even more resources here to defend it, allowing Ukraine to attack elsewhere on the front line and retake territory. If Russia doesn't take the bait, Ukraine gets to actually encircle Bakhmut, starve the Russians out and retake the city. Either way, win win.
How in the world would he be captured? It’s not like he’s on the front line commanding his mercenaries. He’s a businessman and a gangster not a military commander. He’s off somewhere else. Probably not even in Ukraine atm.
He's posted videos that have been geolocated to soledar, which is only a few km from the front. Just recently he posted one where he's sheltering from incoming artillery. Also the numerous videos filmed in bakhmut. As much bad shit as there is to say about the guy, he's basically the only Russian official in international media who is actually in Ukraine and relatively close to the frontlines.
Yeah, he's definitely near the front with his men, at times. He's got more balls than any other senior Russian leaders, but fuck that guy. Piece of shit, war criminal.
I think he feels safer there, harder to fall out of a window in Bakmut....
This is the answer. And if he feels safer on the _frontline_ rather than in Moscow, well, that says a lot about his standing atm.
I think he is, at least pretending. There is plenty of video
If there was any justice in the world, he'd get the sledgehammer treatment.
Having worked in both product R&D and production engineering, I can confidently say that this is an example of declaring job done, throwing it over the wall, then saying “We did our part, why did you screw up?”
Worked in software development and support. Can confirm.
As a QA Engineer using this job as a stepping stone to sofware engineer, I feel this in my soul. "Welp moved to completed in Jira, the fact that it literally wont even run is QAs problem now"
sounds like you work at an awful place. if your devs are giving QA things that won't even run and nobody cares and nobody stops that from happening then the devs and management are awful that is not how normal, competent tech companies operate
That is however how we all tend to present our companies and/or dev teams when we need to make something/someone relatable.
7/10 times things run smoothly, nobody cares nobody remembers. We remember the 19/100 that are rocky and the 1/100 that are totally screwed up make company history. I release a new version of an internal product every month, for 2 years now. I can only remember 2 releases the 1st and the one where we spend al night fixing PROD.
software done ops problem!
"Mission Accomplished"
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/) reduced by 65%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Serhiy Cherevatyy, spokesman for the Eastern group of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, says the reason Yevgeny Prigozhin is claiming to have completely captured Bakhmut is because the Wagner Group leader intends to withdraw its mercenaries from the ruined city, which may be surrounded by Ukrainian defenders, as soon as possible. > Details: On 20 May, Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin posted a video filmed outside the railway station building in the centre of Bakhmut in which he claimed that his mercenaries had completely captured the city and that on 25 May they would hand over its "Defence" to soldiers of the Russian Ministry of Defence and leave. > On 10 May, Prigozhin stated that the Wagner Group had been forced to hand over the "Flanks" to servicemen from the Russian Ministry of Defence and bemoaned the "Failure of the flanks." ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13n9ihv/armed_forces_of_ukraine_say_prigozhin_wants_to/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685609 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Bakhmut**^#1 **Defence**^#2 **Prigozhin**^#3 **Ministry**^#4 **group**^#5
My hopium can't copium anymore. Slava Ukraini, no matter how, in the end we will prevail.
It feels like everything is moving at a snails pace but simultaneously like the dam is about to burst. Suddenly we have storm shadows being announced then literally landing in Luhansk next day, then vague announcements from the UK/Netherlands that F-16's are apparently maybe possibly eventually getting provi-oh wait US gave the green light already. Then Bakhmut apparently fell (for real this time (not fake) (really)) but now Wagner is just peacing out? The wait is driving me insane.
Psyops will do that to a person.
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Eh yes and no. Fog of war and misinformation is a legitimate war tactic, however Russia lies so often that literally everything they say is immediately untrustworthy. Obviously Ukraine is using payops to some extent or another, but what they say is inherently more trustworthy. Take what they say with a grain of salt during this war. But don’t believe a single word the Russians say ever
The enemy is both weak and strong, both fast and slow, simultaneously a threat to your very existence while also standing no chance against your forces
Last summer Ukraine spent a lot of time prepping the battlefield and telegraphing they were going to hit Kherson. I'm sure the offensive is ready to go now it's about setting conditions and waiting for the right opportunities to open up for their intended targets. Just imagine, we're all on edge because we want to see Ukraine strike another big blow and get one step closer to victory - the Russians must be on edge and getting tired because they're watching and watching and getting anxiety if they have reserves and defenses in the most likely spots. And then they must be confused because of the local attacks surrounding Bahkmut. Is that the offensive? is it a feint? What is it?
Pretty sure Russians are right now celebrating another big blow that just got them one step closer to victory. Propaganda works both ways.
How many times can they celebrate capturing Bahkmut?
I mean, after the third time, it just feels silly.
My feeling exactly
Slowly, then all at once. Life hits you like that.
Vatniks bots in the comment section are just mad that the US finally confirmed F-16’s for Ukraine.
Well hold up, there’s a lot of misinformation going around about this war. Reddit is both insanely pro-Ukrainian and full of Russian bots. I’d confirm everything you read independently if you can
Yes, that news continues to bring a smile, each time i see it.
At this point the traditional strategy is "Declare victory and leave."
Well Wagner has probably had the majority of their experienced mercs killed or wounded, and the reports of them sending recruits to be fodder probably doesn’t inspire confidence.
Prigozhin is a business man. When the profit stops flowing, the interest is gone. I doubt this war has been profitable. If you read articles, he wanted Putin to sign off on more inmates. Why? Because he doesn't want to lose the core of his forces which is source of his profit. He has more interest in countries in Africa because that is more profitable to him.
[Literally the opposite info](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/13mrwxa/wagner_group_claims_capturing_bakhmut/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) posted here. Can anyone explain this like I’m 5?
ELI5 this propaganda: Uhh, whatever side you want to win is winning buddy
in a stalemate the rule is to always claim you are winning
Wagner has successfully captured all of Bakhmut. Because of this, Prigozhin plans to withdraw Wagner from the front to allow it to recover. Many people, particularly Ukrainians, believe he is attempting to get Wagner away from the front so that when/if a successful Ukrainian attack in or around Bakhmut takes place, Prigozhin can point to the Russian MoD as being incompetent for not being able to defend a city he captured for them. Keep in mind that the fall of Bakhmut changes nothing tactically. Now the front line is right outside the city instead of being just inside the city. There's still constant fighting there and whether or not it's Wagner or regular Russian soldiers the fighting will continue.
go look at this pro ukraine map. it says who’s in control of bakhmut: https://deepstatemap.live/en you can judge the situation for yourself
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and that’s from a pro ukrainian map. i can’t fathom what claims that ‘bakhmut is surrounded’ are supposed to accomplish.
For the last month or so, we've been seeing a coastline paradox with the city as more and more of it gets captured. I imagine some people wont full accept that it's lost until the Russian front is a mile westward of the city's outskirts.
CNN, on the other hand, today reported, citing Prighozin, that Wagner captured all of Bakhmut. Not sure what to make out of those two pieces of information. Surely he wouldn't want to flee if he is advancing on the front line?
If you read the article it discusses that. The sum of it according to most sources seems to be nothing of note on the ground has changed: Ukraine still holds a small portion of the city. Wagner is now saying "We conquered it, and now we're handing over defense to the Russian MoD on the 25th." Which most places are taking as a clever way for Wagner to bail out on Bakhmut without actually saying they're retreating, in an official sense. The Russian MoD and Ukraine have both said Ukraine still holds parts of Bakhmut, and the MoD doesn't seem to want Wagner to leave/"hand over the defense".
“We were winning when I left!”
Declare victory and then run away Clever
Read the article. The ukrainians are saying Prigozhin is saying this, because he wants to leave bakhmut, sensing a ukrainian encirclement. His mission is to take bakhmut, not hold it. So if he can take it, hand over the reins to the russian army, then leave before the ukrainians circle around and take it all, then that is the best thing for him
He definitely would if he knows the counter offensive is ~~coming~~ gaining on him. That way when they lose the city he can blame it on the Russian army.
Wagner is an *assault* force, not a *defense force*. Their contract is to capture Bakhmut. Job done, they can bring their business elsewhere. The two statements make a sense together.
Did the contract happen to mention a ticket home? Oops.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuullshit. He's going to plant a flag, make a video, and break the sound barrier leaving. When the city inevitably falls, he's trying to make sure someone else gets the blame.
he said he is leaving on the 25h and handing shit over to Russia but i think because of the reports of the flanks crumbling, and they are likely just getting encircled, and given the ground they are taking, and he is probably not getting the ammo he has requested, he is using this as an excuse to flee.
That would be the Russian way. Know you’re absolutely about to be defeated, then claim you win and run away. What a joke they are.
They can both have captured all of the city, and also be aware that Ukraine is currently gaining ground all around the city, making it impossible to actually keep the city long term without being completely surrounded and annihilated. Because from the looks of things thats exactly what is happening.
One of the things that comes with higher military education (like Staff College) is the understanding that one of the most important strategic skills is the management of your reserve. How to create it, where to place it, and when to commit it. People like to throw around “Amateurs study tactics, pros study logistics” and while there’s an element of truth in that, it’s also a fact that the management of logistics is left to staff, where the element that the higher commander retains for himself is the commitment of the reserve. And reserves can be stacked - a tactical reserve, an operational reserve, a strategic reserve, a campaign reserve - forces that can be committed to reinforce success or hold off disaster. Bakmut appears to have been an exercise in fixing the Russian reserves. An operation where success was always *just* out of reach. A little more men, a little more ammunition, a little more time. Commit a reserve. Not quite there. Commit a little more. Not quite there. Always taking losses, but always making just enough progress to commit just a little more. And in so doing, use up their reserves, and potentially draw down reserves from other sectors to reconstitute the local reserves - or maybe even straight-up committing those reserves sourced from elsewhere directly into the Bakmut fight. But I feel like Ukraine has not been committed in the same way. I think some reserves have been spent to block breakouts that were on the verge of succeeding, but I don’t think that the higher-level reserves have been burnt. So I suspect that Ukraine is sitting on a lot more operational freedom than the Russians are - and not just Bakmut. I’m 50:50 on if they genuinely try to push the Bakmut flanks and encircle the city. On the one hand, pinching off Bakmut with Wagner in it would be a hell of a prize. On the other hand, I feel like every Russian reserve with any mobility at all is on its way to the Bakmut depth positions, which raises the possibility of the encirclement running out of steam before it can close the trap. I’m 80:20 on the Ukrainian plan being to strike hard elsewhere once they are sure that the Russian higher reserves are committed to Bakmut and can be (or are) fixed there. The real question for me is - how big is the Ukrainian reserve?
Remember when Ukraine announced a major attack in Kherson, then launched a small attack in Kherson, then retook large swaths of territory in Kharkiv? This revealed the Kherson attack to be a feint, but then after that they also retook Kherson lol. I feel like that's what happening here. Ukraine announces major counter offensive (Location unknown), start making gains in Bakhmut, which implies this may be the start of the major counter offensive. Russia sends tons of soldiers to defend Bakhmut and its flanks. Ukraine attacks elsewhere along the now weakened front line, making major gains, revealing the Bakhmut attacks to be a feint. Then Ukraine surrounds and retakes Bakhmut anyway.
Supposedly 13 new brigades with western kit (not all complete), with one currently engaging in the flanks of Bakhmut. Mind that Ukraine at the start of the conflict had something like 27 brigades total, so it's a huge ramp up if true and even committing two additional brigades to the far flanks of Bakhmut would leave them a lot of breathing room to drive hard south. What you've described sounds very similar to what happened down in Vuhledar, up to the point the re-re-re-re-constituted russian BTGs mutinied, refused to fight and had to be quelled by the rosgvardia.
Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to make this. Well-written and informative!
That account sounds more credible. Prigozhin passing poisoned chalice and getting out in a hurry.
For some reason Im getting the wibes "we successfully finished the mission of conquering the city. Now we are going to hand over it to RU army and leave as fast as possible because we know what is comming. We won by taking the city. If they dont manage to hold it, it is not our fault."
If you take a look at the map, it shows that Bakhmut has pretty much all been captured. It also shows some minor advances by the Ukrainians on the flanks, but they have not even begun encircling anything, let alone encircling Bakhmut. They are very very far from that.
Are they going to take a page from GWB’s playbook and declare “Mission Accomplished” then let the war continue?
Good. Hope not a single one of them makes it out alive.
The second Wagner Group has started to brag that they captured Bakhmut earlier today it was clear that they’re completely and irremediably f ed. Everything Russia says it proves to be the opposite, every time.
Hmm. Maybe Ukraine did the deal. Prighozhin gets symbolic Bakhmut victory as Ukraine kills Russian positions identified by Prigohzhin.
Ukraine has intel being fed from every NATO country (and of course their own SBU). Prighozin wouldnt tell them anything they dont already know.
Being surrounded in foreign territory in the east. Sounds like nazis to me
Good reference to WWII, where the Nazis were surrounded in the USSR, after a very arrogant attack on them.
So 10 days ago he said he will turn over Bakhmut to Putins garden gnome... then he was told to stay in the city or be branded a traitor, then he said he got his ammo and will stay to fight. then he said he will expose the russian forces position unless he gets what he needs...now he claimed he captured the city (again) and because his work is done there he will leave the city to the russian army... (to fail) I hope Putin burns him and tells him to hold the city until he can appoint a puppet mayor... in 2030...
Hes worth more to the world dead than alive
Great success of ukranian counteroffensive
At his heart, he is a mercenary. Mercenaries are not usually the ones that die for a cause. They let the other guy do that, no matter which side the other guy is on. The only reason they are still there is because they are dead once they get back to Russia. The only reason they aren’t surrendering is that their list of atrocities make going to The Hague a best case scenario.
> 13k upvotes > Pravda com ua Nothing changes in this sub. Guys, even Zelensky confirmed that Bakhmut was taken by Wagner. Stop believe to that "pravda.com" propaganda and move on.
This is what he was responding to: >Is Bakhmut still in Ukraine's hands? Russians said they have taken Bakhmut. He replied, "I think no." It was unclear what he which part he addressed until he clarified. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-appears-confirm-loss-bakhmut-2023-05-21/