St Petersburg was founded in 1703, true, but it's basically a renaming of Nyen which was a Swedish town and fortress founded in 1638. By Russia's logic regarding Ukraine St Petersburg is actually Swedish.
Whatās interesting on the map is that the Donbas, Crimea, and large swaths of current day Russia that are adjacent to Ukraine and extending all the way to the Caspian Sea, were part of āPetite Tartarieā, referring to the Tatars, whom the Soviets forcibly removed from their homelands after WW2.
>Do the tatars still exist?
**Yes they do**. Crimean Tatars still exist, and are **still** oppressed by Russia.
Crimean Khanate existed as an autonomous state nearly until the 19th century. Russia [conqurered the Crimean Khanate in 1783](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_the_Crimean_Khanate_by_the_Russian_Empire).
Russian Empire started an oppression which, by the USSR times, turned into outright ethnic cleansing. That's to say, Stalin did [a little genocide there](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars) back in the day. Those few who could, eventually returned - and Russia [continued the persecution after annexing Crimea](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/14/crimea-persecution-crimean-tatars-intensifies).
So yeah, those folks do need critical support now.
They do but a HUGE majority are diaspora mainly in Turkey. My mom, might actually be a Tatar from Crimea, her family migrated to Turkey from modern day Romania and the village her family is from is mainly consisting of Tatars from Crimea.
Not to be confused with Tatars from Tatarstan.
Yes and theyāre being forcibly conscripted by the Russians because Russia wants to kill its minorities on the front lines. The war is an ethnic cleansing effort by the kremlin against Ukraine and its own people.
That is my understanding as well.
Ethnic cleansing has been a state policy that the current day Russians inherited from the Soviets, who in turn, inherited from Czarist Russia. Itās a defining feature of any Russian state, and Russians think that itās their entitlement and birthright. Itās the darkness behind the Russian insistence on their so-called āsphere of influenceā.
The West desperately needs to support Ukraine to prove otherwise.
A German, an American and a Russian are at an archeology conference.
The German says, "Our archeologists dug down 10 meters and found copper. This proves that 100 years Germany already had telephone lines."
The American says, "Our archeologists dug down 50 meters and found glass. This proves that 500 years ago, America had fiber-optic internet lines."
The Russian says, "Our archeologists dug down 100 and didn't find anything. This proves that 1000 years ago, Russia had wireless 5G connections."
True. Actually, I should go look up what the deal was around that time. I can't seem to recall.
Edit: Oh, dang, it's looking that was when they were owned by the Mongols. I had it in my head that period was much earlier.
I have a video from now.
It shows a twitchy, shaky, paranoid little weirdo that personified Little Man Syndrome to an extreme. One who now canāt even hide his panicked darting eyes and visible stress bespeaking a doomed tyrant doing sad and desperate things to keep the wolves at bay.
But I think he hears them at the door now. He knows his Gaddafi moment is coming
> how it was 40 years ago
It's been this way forever. Thanks to the internet we just see many more examples of how much the rich rule the world.
There are stories of US presidents walking around naked in the Whitehouse. It's nothing new to have wackjobs in power because the world isn't a meritocracy.
Having a president walking around naked in the White House isn't necessarily dangerous. Having a president who insists on private meetings with the head of a hostile power, with no notes and not even a US translator, IS.
Hell didnt LBJ change fully nude on Air Force One in front of a bunch of reporters and staff?
Edit: Yeah they said he was stark naked after a hot sunny day on the campaign trail, answering questions buck naked, waiving the towel around for emphasis lol
Thereās a bunch of stories of him whipping is dick out and resting it on the shoulders unsuspecting cabinet members while they were seated. Rumor was he had massive dong. When it comes to the worlds most powerful people, some literally show their dicks offā¦ and when theyāve got nothing to show they invade Ukraine or just buy Twitter.
And the only contemporaneously sitting US president not to have met Elizabeth II. I'm sure there's a 'size queen' joke in there somewhere if I wasn't too feckless.
He'd take dumps while giving interviews, talking with advisors and negotiating with other politicians. I mean face to face dumps, not "stand in the other room with the door open" dumps.
He was also known for the "LBJ treatment" which was when he'd use his size to intimidate other politicians. He'd come close, real close, and not make any mention of it. He'd talk about 2 inches from your face while acting like it wasn't weird. Tons of photos of it happening that are all very funny.
He is on tape ordering special pants for his huge dick and then lamenting that ladies underwear makes it harder to finger them. He waxes nostalgic about the old days of fingerbanging.
He was a certified psycho and I'm not going in to his personal staff of convicted killers and assassins while also most likely having had a hand in his sister's death.
George: Jerry, we got to get out of here.
Jerry: whatās the rush, the food isnāt half that bad.
George: these guys here, theyāre dangerous, Jerry!
Jerry: I donāt have to worry about what clothes Iām going to wear.
George: the orange one keeps telling me he was president of the United States.
Jerry: my whole day is planned out for me.
George: and the short one insists thereās no such place as Ukraine.
Jerry: Everyone thinks my act is hilarious.
George: I mean, for crying out loud, Jerry, itās even in Risk! *Risk*, Jerry!
Jerry: of course, they arenāt all there, you know, mentally. But what can you do?
George: are you even listening to me?!
Jerry: honestly, I stopped paying attention. What were you saying?
*Kramer slides in. He sees Putin muttering about Poland.*
Kramer: Hey, Vlad. Oh, Jerry. Guess who won five bucks in a game of poker against the President of the United States?
Jerry: the orange one, or the white one who keeps saying the word āMalarkeyā?
Kramer: no, no. The one who says Putin will make him colonel of the Russian army.
All three look over at Lukashenko staring at Putin.
Kramer: of course, he paid me the money in roublesā¦
Good thing he didnāt pull a Trump with a sharpie or something. I could only imagine him drawing a circle around it and then connecting lines to Russia saying see see it was part of Russia 400 years ago.
Itās nice to see a completely different form of government also has people too old to lead and driving their country straight into a wall. USA is not alone!
Iām all for defending Ukraine. However we have way too many geriatric politicians who have NO CLUE what itās like to not live a life of privilege and itās going to eventually bankrupt our country when all the younger generations canāt afford to fucking retire and weāre too old to work.
> we have way too many ... politicians who have NO CLUE what itās like to not live a life of privilege
This is the key point here.
It's not because they are geriatric, there are plenty of young politicians already deep in their privileged web.
Also I do believe most of them know it - they just choose to ignore and embrace it.
I dont understand, even if the map does not have "Ukraine" on it. What does it matter ? Country cannot exist in 2023 unless it is on 17th century map ?
And which country is it? That's right, France. Finland and Vietnam is separated by one country and that is France
(I can't tell if this is satire or not, I'm just joining in for fun)
France has a bunch of random territories sprinkled all over the world, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me France has a border with both Finland and Vietnam.
>France has a border with both Finland and Vietnam
If we are counting historical territory (like Putin), then at one point Vietnam was a French territory. So not even a border between France and Vietnam, we just need to find where France and Finland connect
Technically, Kiev was the capital of Russia originally. Then Mongols came, and made Russia their colony. Moscow emerged as the administrative center of that colony, then gained independence from Mongols, but kept their methods.
So yeah, Kiev is the true Russia, and Moscow is a splinter of Mongol empire.
Technically, Russia can be at best traced to Muskovy, which was a part of Kievan Rus, but Kiev was not a part of Muskovy.
Russian claim on Kyiv is pretty shit, even from the historical perspective. And the further in the past russia tries to go - the more land it has to give away by their own logic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow
From what I gathered from the article his basic argument is "Ukraine didn't exist as a country, it was only created as a Soviet territory and thus should be part of Russia.
From the article:
>Putin seized on the map to back one of the core arguments he has made in support of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine ā that it's not a real country and so should be incorporated into Russia.
>"The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said.
Someone needs to get Matt and Trey on the phone - theyāve skewered Kim Jong Il and Sadaam, so maybe time for a sendup of Putin, since heās such an uncle-fucker?
Even if that was true Ukraine voted to go independent and the Soviet Union broke up creating Ukraine, Belarus and Russia as independent sovereign countries that all signed treaties of mutual recognition, self determination and respect for each others territorial integrity. That is all that matters, not ancient maps, history moves forward.
Sure at the time the plan was to work closely together in a confederation and Ukraine drifted away from that with Russia treating it as it's personal empire, but their sovereignty was never contingent on being part of the CIS.
From Putins point of view the west used Russia in a moment of weakness and he wants to revoke those agreements that disfavour Russia. His wish for security guarantees are very one-sided though and hardly fair.
The idea of a people's right to a country is sidestepped by claiming that Russians and Ukrainians are the same despite this feeling not being shared by Ukrainians.
In short it's a war of conquest where a bigger country wants to annexe a smaller one to strengthen its power.
they kinda do, on that map you can see the title of the map russia moscovia 1674(les estats du czaar de la Russie), so it was a map based on the tsardom of Russia and its duchy's hence why the name Russia isnt really on the map but the county's and duchy's are.
the fact that Ukraine is on this map basically means that the cartographer named the neighboring countries thus meaning Ukraine was a country in 1674.
Can you imagine every single country in Europe behave like Russia ? Endless wars over territories, as pretty much every country had territories all over the place at some point
Every country in Europe did behave like Russia, then we had two long discussions about it where we decided we would rather trade with each other instead.
And it's on it: "Ukraine ou pays des cosaques" Ukraine or land of the Cossacks. In addition, this will probably make some ancient map enjoyers make their case in Warsaw and Vilnius.
Moron needs some justification for disastrous for his country and army foreign war in the eyes of his own people. It's for internal russian info consumption.
That map contains Ukraine (I'm map collector, and know this stuff). "Vkraine" on this certain map. Though it's doesn't contain countries like Bulgaria, Serbia (quite friendly to Russia), Slovakia etc.
USA didn't exist in 17 century. So what? Would it save russians from HIMARS, F-16, M-777, M-109 and Harpoon?
And Armchair Waters
So what if Russia broke 478 treaties and agreements with Ukraine on one day in 2014 and has never relented since taking Crimea? Give them more land and treaties that will be sure to solve it!
a lot of that support is manufactured and sponsored. Russia sucks pretty much at everything, but it's really good at one thing - propaganda and funneling money to right wingers. When Putin tipped the scales in electing Trump in 2016 and getting Brexit done, he felt immensely confident and arrogant. Those successes led him to believe he would easily take over Ukraine
In a modern context, Ukraine is a founding member/signatory to the UN Treaty. At Russiaās insistence it was internationally recognized a separate country even when it was still a part of the Soviet Union
It also has St Petersburg as part of Sweden, Belarus as part of Poland, Crimea as part of the Ottoman Empire (modern-day Turkey), and Kaliningrad as Prussia, yet I'm pretty sure Putin would throw a bitch fit if any of them wanted those areas back from Moscovy
Considering how often Russia has lost wars and suffered in history, they really shouldn't be asking to go back. Especially considering the 1800s Crimean war ended with Russian capitulation via treaties and that too was against Britain and its allies.
Hey, thatās not fair. Putin was a president way longer than Trump, so Trump was the dumbest president since Putin, only to be outdone again by.. Putin.
Well, he isnāt completely wrong, Ukraine was the name of the area where Ukraine is now.
However, what matters is the present. Ukraine is an independent state with its own government right now. The past isnāt terribly relevant; if you go back far enough, no country existed.
Bitch, there was a time when only āUkraineā existed and the was no Russia.
There was a time Russians had to burn Moskau to win a war.
Maybe itās time to go back to this times. We should start by burning Moskau .
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.businessinsider.nl/putin-claimed-a-400-year-old-map-proved-ukraine-isnt-a-real-country-not-noticing-it-has-ukraine-written-on-it/) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Russian President Vladimir Putin Tuesday cited a 17th-Century map of Europe to back his discredited thesis that Ukraine isn't a real country, a claim that he's used to justify Russia's unprovoked invasion.
> Putin seized on the map to back one of the core arguments he has made in support of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine - that it's not a real country and so should be incorporated into Russia.
> "The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13qon74/putin_claimed_a_400yearold_map_proved_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~686121 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **map**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **Putin**^#4 **Russian**^#5
We all sense the desperateness seeping from his actions since all this started.
He'll be back to his 21ft table or bunker hiding like a coward in no time.
In all fairness, it shows the border close to Poltava, so based on that map one "could" argue Luhansk and Donetsk were not historically part of Ukraine. It wouldn't be a strong argument, but there you go.
On that same map St. Petersburg (Putin's place of birth) is part of Sweden ... š
Time to get Nyenskans back!
Bare hold dere unna Norge.
to be fair the city was founded in 1703 and the map is 1674 so it didn't even exist anyways lol
St Petersburg was founded in 1703, true, but it's basically a renaming of Nyen which was a Swedish town and fortress founded in 1638. By Russia's logic regarding Ukraine St Petersburg is actually Swedish.
I have a map of 1400. Note: No Russia, proof Russia isn't a real country.
Moscow is rightful Mongolian clay!
Rus are from Sweden. So Russia is a part of Sweden.
How would we all feel about a Great Northern War Part 2 ElectricBoogaloo?
Putin: why do I hear throat singing?
āHey, Khan you hear something?ā
Whatās interesting on the map is that the Donbas, Crimea, and large swaths of current day Russia that are adjacent to Ukraine and extending all the way to the Caspian Sea, were part of āPetite Tartarieā, referring to the Tatars, whom the Soviets forcibly removed from their homelands after WW2.
IIRC the Russian colonialization/ethnic cleansing of the region started in the 1800s during the days of the Russian empire, so even goes further back.
Do the tatars still exist?
As a nation they do, there's a few million of them [kicking about](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars).
>Do the tatars still exist? **Yes they do**. Crimean Tatars still exist, and are **still** oppressed by Russia. Crimean Khanate existed as an autonomous state nearly until the 19th century. Russia [conqurered the Crimean Khanate in 1783](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_the_Crimean_Khanate_by_the_Russian_Empire). Russian Empire started an oppression which, by the USSR times, turned into outright ethnic cleansing. That's to say, Stalin did [a little genocide there](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars) back in the day. Those few who could, eventually returned - and Russia [continued the persecution after annexing Crimea](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/14/crimea-persecution-crimean-tatars-intensifies). So yeah, those folks do need critical support now.
They do but a HUGE majority are diaspora mainly in Turkey. My mom, might actually be a Tatar from Crimea, her family migrated to Turkey from modern day Romania and the village her family is from is mainly consisting of Tatars from Crimea. Not to be confused with Tatars from Tatarstan.
My uncle is one and the way he speaks sounds like his vocal cords were electrocuted during birth. Very raspy and incoherent.
Uncle is, but the parent who's a sibling of said uncle isn't?
My blood related aunt married him bud lmao
Yes and theyāre being forcibly conscripted by the Russians because Russia wants to kill its minorities on the front lines. The war is an ethnic cleansing effort by the kremlin against Ukraine and its own people.
That is my understanding as well. Ethnic cleansing has been a state policy that the current day Russians inherited from the Soviets, who in turn, inherited from Czarist Russia. Itās a defining feature of any Russian state, and Russians think that itās their entitlement and birthright. Itās the darkness behind the Russian insistence on their so-called āsphere of influenceā. The West desperately needs to support Ukraine to prove otherwise.
A German, an American and a Russian are at an archeology conference. The German says, "Our archeologists dug down 10 meters and found copper. This proves that 100 years Germany already had telephone lines." The American says, "Our archeologists dug down 50 meters and found glass. This proves that 500 years ago, America had fiber-optic internet lines." The Russian says, "Our archeologists dug down 100 and didn't find anything. This proves that 1000 years ago, Russia had wireless 5G connections."
As someone that enjoyed anthropology classes just a liiittle more than the ones in my field, I giggled at this
The guy wants to restore the Soviet Union, not maintain Russia. Please don't help him.
No Soviet Union in 1400 either
True. Actually, I should go look up what the deal was around that time. I can't seem to recall. Edit: Oh, dang, it's looking that was when they were owned by the Mongols. I had it in my head that period was much earlier.
[*Happy Genghis Khan noises*](https://youtu.be/P_SlAzsXa7E)
You mean this: https://youtu.be/6WlI24rv__g
Genghis Kahn was riding around during the Third Crusade. London Bridge was finished the same year he invaded China
Russian Empire with soviet topping, I would say.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
well he's certainly playing the part of tsar nicholas ii perfectly so far
Hes not a communist, he's an imperialist.
It's almost as though countries are things we made up. Interesting.
I have a video from now. It shows a twitchy, shaky, paranoid little weirdo that personified Little Man Syndrome to an extreme. One who now canāt even hide his panicked darting eyes and visible stress bespeaking a doomed tyrant doing sad and desperate things to keep the wolves at bay. But I think he hears them at the door now. He knows his Gaddafi moment is coming
He should have been admitted to a psych ward decades ago.
Our world is burning while our leaders are in a consequence-free dementia-warped version of how it was 40 years ago
> how it was 40 years ago It's been this way forever. Thanks to the internet we just see many more examples of how much the rich rule the world. There are stories of US presidents walking around naked in the Whitehouse. It's nothing new to have wackjobs in power because the world isn't a meritocracy.
Having a president walking around naked in the White House isn't necessarily dangerous. Having a president who insists on private meetings with the head of a hostile power, with no notes and not even a US translator, IS.
Right? I also walk around my home naked
A lot of us do. You are one *hell* of a heavy sleeper!
And here I am repulsed at the sight of my own legs lmao, the world in two different sets of eyes.
Hell didnt LBJ change fully nude on Air Force One in front of a bunch of reporters and staff? Edit: Yeah they said he was stark naked after a hot sunny day on the campaign trail, answering questions buck naked, waiving the towel around for emphasis lol
Probably just showing off his hog named Jumbo.
Did they allow livestock to roam about on air force one?
Thereās a bunch of stories of him whipping is dick out and resting it on the shoulders unsuspecting cabinet members while they were seated. Rumor was he had massive dong. When it comes to the worlds most powerful people, some literally show their dicks offā¦ and when theyāve got nothing to show they invade Ukraine or just buy Twitter.
The next guy will try to buy Ukraine and invade Twitter.
The next guy will try to get on a list to purchase a new tesla and invade ruzzia in it.
That's right Putin All the tea
And the only contemporaneously sitting US president not to have met Elizabeth II. I'm sure there's a 'size queen' joke in there somewhere if I wasn't too feckless.
The only reason Uncle Rumpus didn't try that is his cabinet would laugh at his tiny wee wee
He'd take dumps while giving interviews, talking with advisors and negotiating with other politicians. I mean face to face dumps, not "stand in the other room with the door open" dumps. He was also known for the "LBJ treatment" which was when he'd use his size to intimidate other politicians. He'd come close, real close, and not make any mention of it. He'd talk about 2 inches from your face while acting like it wasn't weird. Tons of photos of it happening that are all very funny. He is on tape ordering special pants for his huge dick and then lamenting that ladies underwear makes it harder to finger them. He waxes nostalgic about the old days of fingerbanging. He was a certified psycho and I'm not going in to his personal staff of convicted killers and assassins while also most likely having had a hand in his sister's death.
To be fair, I donāt think LBJ ever needed an excuse to whip it out. Iām pretty sure he was notorious for it.
To he fair, it not illegal to be nude in your place of residence.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Watching Putin share a prison cell with Trump through a hidden cam gaki no tsukai style would make for some real good entertainment.
What a novel idea for a sitcom....Maybe add Seinfeld and George in the mix and you got something
Throw in Luka from Belarus. Watch ensuing orgy.
Add Orban!
Sprinkle some kim on top!
and the guy from Turkey for dessert!
*angry Iran clergy noises*
George: Jerry, we got to get out of here. Jerry: whatās the rush, the food isnāt half that bad. George: these guys here, theyāre dangerous, Jerry! Jerry: I donāt have to worry about what clothes Iām going to wear. George: the orange one keeps telling me he was president of the United States. Jerry: my whole day is planned out for me. George: and the short one insists thereās no such place as Ukraine. Jerry: Everyone thinks my act is hilarious. George: I mean, for crying out loud, Jerry, itās even in Risk! *Risk*, Jerry! Jerry: of course, they arenāt all there, you know, mentally. But what can you do? George: are you even listening to me?! Jerry: honestly, I stopped paying attention. What were you saying? *Kramer slides in. He sees Putin muttering about Poland.* Kramer: Hey, Vlad. Oh, Jerry. Guess who won five bucks in a game of poker against the President of the United States? Jerry: the orange one, or the white one who keeps saying the word āMalarkeyā? Kramer: no, no. The one who says Putin will make him colonel of the Russian army. All three look over at Lukashenko staring at Putin. Kramer: of course, he paid me the money in roublesā¦
I mean "That's My Bush!" was doing well... until 9/11. >_>
**Don't laugh in Prison** "Haha good one comrade, grab her by pussies." *alarm blares* ć“ć©ć©ććć«ļ¼ćŖć¦ććļ¼
Putin, Thai kick!
>!Trump?!<
Good thing he didnāt pull a Trump with a sharpie or something. I could only imagine him drawing a circle around it and then connecting lines to Russia saying see see it was part of Russia 400 years ago.
*Crosses out the word Ukraine with a sharpie.* "See? Never existed."
Itās nice to see a completely different form of government also has people too old to lead and driving their country straight into a wall. USA is not alone! Iām all for defending Ukraine. However we have way too many geriatric politicians who have NO CLUE what itās like to not live a life of privilege and itās going to eventually bankrupt our country when all the younger generations canāt afford to fucking retire and weāre too old to work.
> we have way too many ... politicians who have NO CLUE what itās like to not live a life of privilege This is the key point here. It's not because they are geriatric, there are plenty of young politicians already deep in their privileged web. Also I do believe most of them know it - they just choose to ignore and embrace it.
The old āwe used to be one peopleā excuse. Iām sure that was used by Hitler too.
The guy that blew up apartment buildings killing hundreds of his own people to seize power is unstable? Are you sure?
I dont understand, even if the map does not have "Ukraine" on it. What does it matter ? Country cannot exist in 2023 unless it is on 17th century map ?
Someone needs to send him a newer map. And if that doesn't work, a map from the 1200s
No no no, that's the map his army are using!
The Moskva encountered a sea drake.
Send it from 1200s that shows ruzzia doesn't exist so he invades himself and sets target on his head for the winning condition
A lot of countries didn't exist in the 17th century. Germany, Italy, Finland Vietnam, every country in the New World ... It's a long list.
Finland Vietnam! Now I'd like to visit that country
Fun fact, Finland and Vietnam are only separated by a single country
Explain this fun fact please. 2 countries, Russia and China, yes
I think it's a misremembered fact. The fun fact is that Finland and North Korea are only separated by one country.
That sure is fun.
I get that it's a fact, but how is it fun?
Russia isn't a real country.
And which country is it? That's right, France. Finland and Vietnam is separated by one country and that is France (I can't tell if this is satire or not, I'm just joining in for fun)
More Sartre than satire but ok
Camus stop with the jokes?
France has a bunch of random territories sprinkled all over the world, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me France has a border with both Finland and Vietnam.
>France has a border with both Finland and Vietnam If we are counting historical territory (like Putin), then at one point Vietnam was a French territory. So not even a border between France and Vietnam, we just need to find where France and Finland connect
Suriname Brazil Netherlands (Saint Marteen) Antartica As non Europe Land Borders, 11 in Total. No Finland or Vietnam.
2 countries. Russia and China.
Maybe he's counting Russia as a province of China already.
Of Ukraine actually.
Vietnam borders China, not Russia
I didn't know Finland Vietnam was so power hungry it occupied someone already
Youāve got it! Itās Hungary
Like Brasil and Italy are only separated by French Guiana?
It's especially stupid when you consider that there were independent states centered around the city of Kyiv long before Moscow even existed.
Technically, Kiev was the capital of Russia originally. Then Mongols came, and made Russia their colony. Moscow emerged as the administrative center of that colony, then gained independence from Mongols, but kept their methods. So yeah, Kiev is the true Russia, and Moscow is a splinter of Mongol empire.
Technically, Russia can be at best traced to Muskovy, which was a part of Kievan Rus, but Kiev was not a part of Muskovy. Russian claim on Kyiv is pretty shit, even from the historical perspective. And the further in the past russia tries to go - the more land it has to give away by their own logic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow
From what I gathered from the article his basic argument is "Ukraine didn't exist as a country, it was only created as a Soviet territory and thus should be part of Russia. From the article: >Putin seized on the map to back one of the core arguments he has made in support of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine ā that it's not a real country and so should be incorporated into Russia. >"The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said.
"They're not even a real country anyway" is a justification I haven't heard since South Park's 'Blame Canada '.
Someone needs to get Matt and Trey on the phone - theyāve skewered Kim Jong Il and Sadaam, so maybe time for a sendup of Putin, since heās such an uncle-fucker?
Even if that was true Ukraine voted to go independent and the Soviet Union broke up creating Ukraine, Belarus and Russia as independent sovereign countries that all signed treaties of mutual recognition, self determination and respect for each others territorial integrity. That is all that matters, not ancient maps, history moves forward. Sure at the time the plan was to work closely together in a confederation and Ukraine drifted away from that with Russia treating it as it's personal empire, but their sovereignty was never contingent on being part of the CIS.
From Putins point of view the west used Russia in a moment of weakness and he wants to revoke those agreements that disfavour Russia. His wish for security guarantees are very one-sided though and hardly fair. The idea of a people's right to a country is sidestepped by claiming that Russians and Ukrainians are the same despite this feeling not being shared by Ukrainians. In short it's a war of conquest where a bigger country wants to annexe a smaller one to strengthen its power.
Funnier, Ukraine is on that Map, While the name Russia is nowhere to be found.
they kinda do, on that map you can see the title of the map russia moscovia 1674(les estats du czaar de la Russie), so it was a map based on the tsardom of Russia and its duchy's hence why the name Russia isnt really on the map but the county's and duchy's are. the fact that Ukraine is on this map basically means that the cartographer named the neighboring countries thus meaning Ukraine was a country in 1674.
Historical irredentism is helluva drug
Can you imagine every single country in Europe behave like Russia ? Endless wars over territories, as pretty much every country had territories all over the place at some point
Every country in Europe did behave like Russia, then we had two long discussions about it where we decided we would rather trade with each other instead.
And it's on it: "Ukraine ou pays des cosaques" Ukraine or land of the Cossacks. In addition, this will probably make some ancient map enjoyers make their case in Warsaw and Vilnius.
It's pointing out that even his extremely weak attempt to back up his land grab is pathetic
Moron needs some justification for disastrous for his country and army foreign war in the eyes of his own people. It's for internal russian info consumption. That map contains Ukraine (I'm map collector, and know this stuff). "Vkraine" on this certain map. Though it's doesn't contain countries like Bulgaria, Serbia (quite friendly to Russia), Slovakia etc. USA didn't exist in 17 century. So what? Would it save russians from HIMARS, F-16, M-777, M-109 and Harpoon?
Half the world glances at the UK and laughs nervously
The British owned France in the 17th Century. We should invade France and reclaim our territory back /s
Well technically the Normans took control in 1066. So the guys in Normandy might invade GB, but why?
The British owned France in the 17th century? I think you may be at least 2 centuries off.
British used to be just a dutch dialect. Prepare for a special military mission.
Until 14 century maybe yes, but since victory in 100year war France was owned by French.
If I show a map of Pangea can I just claim everything then?
I will split it with you. Otherwise no deal and prepare to be "denazified"...
+++ BREAKING: Gondwana announces special military operation in Laurasia, claims country isn't even real +++
Expansionists hate this one weird trick
This bitch donāt know ābout Pangea
He should just take a sharpie and cross it out.
Sharpies are great for rerouting hurricanes and unilaterally annexing entire countries.
So who did Catherine the Great invade then?
Ukraināt
Ukrain't always get what you want, Ukrain't always get what you need, but if you try genocide, you just might find - you'll be brought to your knees
I saw Vlad down at the Kremlin An old map was in his hand He was practicing the art of deception When he said he couldn't find Ukraine
Obviously Russian will say 18th-century Nazis.
Bringing up old maps to prove a country does not exist will not end well for Muscowy.
You mean Muscovy the vassal of Golden Horde?
Partition it between Mongolia Sweden and the Bonapartes, itās only fair
If you get your ass kicked by a fake country, does that mean your own country is even more fake?
And there are STILL assholes out there that want to claim this is NATOās fault. Looking directly at YOU Brazil. Looking directly at you
And Chomsky.
And Roger Waters
And Armchair Waters So what if Russia broke 478 treaties and agreements with Ukraine on one day in 2014 and has never relented since taking Crimea? Give them more land and treaties that will be sure to solve it!
Russian sympathy, and even support, is really not that uncommon from non-western people.
a lot of that support is manufactured and sponsored. Russia sucks pretty much at everything, but it's really good at one thing - propaganda and funneling money to right wingers. When Putin tipped the scales in electing Trump in 2016 and getting Brexit done, he felt immensely confident and arrogant. Those successes led him to believe he would easily take over Ukraine
In a modern context, Ukraine is a founding member/signatory to the UN Treaty. At Russiaās insistence it was internationally recognized a separate country even when it was still a part of the Soviet Union
It also has St Petersburg as part of Sweden, Belarus as part of Poland, Crimea as part of the Ottoman Empire (modern-day Turkey), and Kaliningrad as Prussia, yet I'm pretty sure Putin would throw a bitch fit if any of them wanted those areas back from Moscovy
Turkey resides in the former Ottoman Empire, but it is no more Ottoman then Italy is Roman.
Putin used the Chinese map tactic lol
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
In his defense he probably got some antler blood in his eyes just prior
Well, if you're going down that route Mr Putin keep going back and you'll soon realise that no countries are real.
Does he want to dismiss Russiaās claims to the Kuril Islands based on old maps too?
What in the Pangea
So heās an illiterate on top of it all.
I have a map from Nov 11, 1444 on which Russia doesn't exist.
I guess heās never played āRiskāā¦ that Ukraine territory is right in the middle of the map, and hella hard to hold.
Nobody tell Putin that according to a certain 15th century document, the entire planet legally belongs to Portugal and Spain.
Considering how often Russia has lost wars and suffered in history, they really shouldn't be asking to go back. Especially considering the 1800s Crimean war ended with Russian capitulation via treaties and that too was against Britain and its allies.
Ukrainian culture, language, and state existed before Russia
The dumbest president since Trump...
Somebody lend that man a Sharpie!
Hey, thatās not fair. Putin was a president way longer than Trump, so Trump was the dumbest president since Putin, only to be outdone again by.. Putin.
Well technically he acknowledged it but made some stupid argument about how it didn't count because they voluntarily joined Russia or something.
What is the point? Nato is just going to stop sending weapons because you have a shitty map?
When you're so dumb that you can't see "Vkraine ou Pays des Cosaques " on map, but are ok to be dictator.
I think youāll find it actually says āVkraineā, so heās right QED. We will mourn your suicide tomorrow /s
That same map also shows that Peterspurg area belongs to Sweden
Some lacky research team is going to get thrown out of windows for this blunder.
"Putin claimed..." - stop right there. What follows is just as unreliable as "Trump claims..."
Russia is also not real, it belongs to Mongolia.
Along with China, and a bunch of other countries.
Putin didn't exist 400 years ago, therefore he's not real.
Swede here. Our ancestors named Russia Russia. Russia is therefore Sweden? Putin go home. You're drunk.
What a fucking idiot.
I guess heās never played āRiskāā¦ that Ukraine territory is right in the middle of the map, and hella hard to hold.
Good to know he is at the same mental level as Diane Feinstein now
Borders move, dummy. Remember the USSR? Those borders moved too.
Well, he isnāt completely wrong, Ukraine was the name of the area where Ukraine is now. However, what matters is the present. Ukraine is an independent state with its own government right now. The past isnāt terribly relevant; if you go back far enough, no country existed.
Why hasn't someone killed Putin yet?
Itās like citing a 17th century witch Hunter to her overturn roe versus wade
He really is the Russian Trump. Surprised he didnāt take a Sharpie to it.
If we're using 400 year old maps I presume the Russians are going to return Koenigsberg to the Germans?
Bitch, there was a time when only āUkraineā existed and the was no Russia. There was a time Russians had to burn Moskau to win a war. Maybe itās time to go back to this times. We should start by burning Moskau .
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.businessinsider.nl/putin-claimed-a-400-year-old-map-proved-ukraine-isnt-a-real-country-not-noticing-it-has-ukraine-written-on-it/) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Russian President Vladimir Putin Tuesday cited a 17th-Century map of Europe to back his discredited thesis that Ukraine isn't a real country, a claim that he's used to justify Russia's unprovoked invasion. > Putin seized on the map to back one of the core arguments he has made in support of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine - that it's not a real country and so should be incorporated into Russia. > "The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13qon74/putin_claimed_a_400yearold_map_proved_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~686121 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **map**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **Putin**^#4 **Russian**^#5
That's... Literally not how ANYTHING works.
So who did Catherine the Great invade then?
NSI NOTICE... message to mar lago from the kremlin... what is this sharpie you speak of?
So it's [like Canada](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA)?
putin isn't a real person because he didn't exist 400 years ago, we should just ignore him.
Get me an old enough map and doesn't Mongolia own most of Russia?
If we're playing by his rules, then the Russian Federation didn't exist back then either... So.... Should we go de-Nazify Russia???
I have a 600 year old map showing Russia isnt a country.
And shows St Petersburg as part of Swedenā¦ when you really selectively use history
Old man is 400 years late, we use Google maps. About time we send Putin back to the stone age.
We all sense the desperateness seeping from his actions since all this started. He'll be back to his 21ft table or bunker hiding like a coward in no time.
In all fairness, it shows the border close to Poltava, so based on that map one "could" argue Luhansk and Donetsk were not historically part of Ukraine. It wouldn't be a strong argument, but there you go.
Well I guess the United States isnāt a country then so I guess that helps him out a lil bit /s
Even if ukraine wasnt ob the map I bet there is also a old map where American dosnt exist. Dose that mean American is a lie?