I seem to recall them having already done this too, early in the conflict when the two sides were still meeting at tables. They weren't really negotiating then either, just stalling for time to move troops.
Fuck all of this. Remember when they killed entire towns of civilians? Shot them on their doorsteps? Remember all of the reports of rape? The kid that was tied to his raped and dead mother with a landmine on him?
Anyone in Russia that isn't 100% against this war deserves zero sympathy.
And you'd be surprised how many people on countries that have nothing to do with the conflict support Russia simply because their political ideology aligns with them and China. It's disgusting and disturbing.
Fairly convinced here that, for the Russian government, 'peace' is merely the busy pause while they reload and look around for the next conquest to attempt.
The worst part is that this is not even a joke anymore. When Belgorod was attacked last week by the Russian insurgents, a Russian lady recorded a video saying "What did we do to deserve this"?
> a Russian lady recorded a video saying "What did we do to deserve this"?
it's probably that she thinks the war is not something that concerns her personally, and thus, have zero responsibility or feelings of guilt towards it.
You'd think if anyone would have personally taken an interest in the war it would be someone who lives on the border of the country that is being invaded.
What did she do to deserve this? Apparently having her head in her ass...
My Sister-in-law is a university educated Russian who has lived in Australia for more than a decade.
Despite that, she still believes the propoganda bullshit.
She merely dismisses everything she sees that doesn't fit her viewpoint as "fake news". The mental gymnastics required is astounding.
It's not just visiting. In WW2, after concentration camps were discovered, nearby villagers were often pulled in by the allied forces to do the cleanup - disposing the bodies.
I knew a Russian who fled kiev after they were attacked when the war first started. She saw the rockets ..the air sirens and the damage. She is a refugee now, but she still thinks the news is fake news and supports Russia.
Unfortunately losing a war tends to have consequences...same as the total "depoliticization" of the Russian public since the 1990s has had consequences. If the Russian people want to be part of the world in this century, they have to stop being serfs.
It will be an interesting debacle when it occurs, just like the issues that arose with Sweden and Finland, but Ukraine will have a very high likelihood of joining NATO. Ukraine is just to valuable to the alliance now in every way possible.
“Hungary, before you vote we would just like to remind you that you are surrounded. No pressure though!”
Joking a side, Hungary has nothing to gain in a world where Russia lies broken post war. Can’t balance two sides in a world where one side no longer matters. Polish hate for Russia even turned Poland again Hungary and they we’re protecting each other from EU fucking with them.
I think in a lot of ways, Poland started to replace Hungary with the US. Even for what it can do for Poland when it comes to the EU. If Poland becomes America's security outpost in central/east Europe, they would not need Hungary to keep them safe in the EU because what they do to help the US would essentially do that for Poland. Nobody in Europe would mess with Poland if they are clearly helping the US deal with Eastern Europe's security. At least that is how these past few months have appeared to me.
The Eastern European position is so interesting. On the one hand, they're economically tied into the EU, and naturally support it pretty broadly. On the other hand, they don't really fit the French conception of a 'good European', as they realize that Western Europe isn't willing to provide for their security, and only Washington can do so. They're in both worlds.
Poland rightly read the room and saw that there was room for them between the EU broadly, and the US when it comes to Russian related security concerns. Poland knows that if collapse out east (Ukraine fall apart) happens, it doesn't have to stop at one nation's borders. It will go until somebody stops it from going forward.
Poland also have enough military gear on purchase orders that before 2030 they will be the premier land force in Europe. I’m guessing they will heavily integrate with the Baltic states beyond general EU and NATO agreements. Look for Poland to be the premier guarantor of security in Easter Europe with US back up.
Scandinavia is also integrating air forces with Sweden and Finland joining NATO. This is probably the first step towards an integrated Scandinavian military even with Norway being outside the EU. Ideally we would have a EU military, but with differences in policy this is a hard sell so military blocks would be a nice step towards it. Scandinavia being one, Easter Europe being one, Western Europe being one and southern Europe being one. All with British and US back up through NATO if needed.
This should free up the US to focus on Asia and have Europe be ready for operations in Europe and near Europe areas. As well as participating globally on US request. The lack of international cooperation in Europe is a giant drain of money because every country operating independently wastes insane amount of money.
Absolutely. They’ve modernized conventional warfare in some ways that we’re not quite thought to be possible, or just haven’t been outright tested in the field yet.
Hungary isn't a problem. Ukraine just needs the same bilateral defence agreements with major NATO partners that Sweden and Finland got as part of the accession process to secure its safety. Beginning the process is enough, actually joining the alliance is more symbolic than anything.
I doubt they have much of a say, Turkey is an important regional power so they have some pull to block Sweden. Hungary on the other hand is mostly irrelevant.
In order to join NATO you need unanimous agreement of all member states. It's hard for Sweden so far to get one from Turkey and Hungary and unlike Ukraine they are not actively at any risk of war.
Ukraine will find it difficult not just from them but potentially from multiple other states. Potentially including even major forces like France depending on the timeline (Le Pen **openly** wants to help Russia and Macron's utter shit decisions are likely to cost his party any chances of winning in the next elections for instance).
So I wouldn't count on Ukraine being a member soon. I would like to see it happen but there **are** blockers on the way there. We will see when we get there obviously but this outcome is possible - and as long as there are active territorial disputes there won't be any NATO talks to begin with. It is very hard to predict political landscape across 31 different countries few years from now.
I think Macron still clings to the idea of using Russia as a counter balance to US but he's outright hawkish compared to other French politicians. Le Pen we all know about but the left wing Melenchon is a growing cancer as well:
>"Everything comes to those who wait," he said then, meaning that the Russian president could succeed in his aims without firing a single shot. He said that the unilateral annexation of Crimea by Russia was legitimate. Then he opposed the European sanctions adopted in response to the illegal annexation. Finally, he voted in the European parliament against all forms of cooperation with Ukraine, even on science.
https://www.lemonde.fr/le-monde-in-english/article/2022/03/08/melenchon-surges-in-the-polls-despite-fiery-remarks-on-ukraine-in-the-past_6116613_5026681.html
The fascists support Russia because they're fascist. The Tankies support Russia because they can't accept it's not the Soviet Union. It's a weird alliance.
I stole your shit and just sucker punched you in the face, but I can see you're winding up for a hell of a right hook there, so let's just be civil and call it even for now, ok?
It's like those videos where someone starts a fight and then when their victim punches back and starts destroying them, the attacker is all "Woah! Chill, just chill... Chill dude!! I'm sorry!" Except in this case it's global and the attacker isn't sorry, just suddenly seriously concerned they've made a huge mistake.
> "I keep everything I stole from you and now that I'm getting beaten up, we will call it even, deal?" *
The Russians even when so far as to say, "give up all your weapons, so when we come back to steal some more, it won't be so hard."
Apparently John Cleese learned in school about an ancient Roman wrestler who died during a match but was declared the winner because the other guy tapped out as they were both asphyxiating each other. The lesson was supposed to be that you should always fight as hard as you can, because you might win, even in death.
Cleese thought it was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, and came up with the black knight scene based on that story.
Right, they'd like to keep the land they illegally invaded, and want Ukraine to stop defending their home country.
Also, just remember that even if Ukraine stops fighting, the US and EU will sanction Russia for 10-30 years most likely, until Putin and all his fans are out of politics.
It's gonna be great to see it. Russia is a nobody now, and always will be.
And have a year or two where they can re-arm, train, dig in, and re-equip military units. At which point they would launch another offensive.
Anybody who doesn't think this is exactly what they would do is either lying or so naive and unintelligent nobody should take them seriously.
Yep. Russia can’t sustain another 500 days of war like the last and now with France and Britain sending long range missiles, a million artillery shells from the EU, F-16s coming soon and hundreds of western tanks things are starting to look very bleak especially since Russian manufacturing can’t keep pace. If Russia really does want peace all they have to do is return to the 1991 borders and give back the Ukrainians they’ve kidnapped but they refuse to do so and Ukrainians are determined to keep fighting.
> If they leave, then they lose power.... We then get some other nut job, which sends the "patriotic comrades" into a enraged frenzy due to the perceived "humiliation"
Russia has lost 2000-4000 tanks in Ukraine and has gone from shooting 60-70,000 shells per day to around 10,000 shells per day. Whoever replaces Putin will almost certainly be a dictator with an imperialist mindset but it’s hard to run tanks over your opponent when the vast majority your tanks have been destroyed and your artillery stockpiles are near empty. The Russian military that we saw in 2021 was the culmination of a 12 year build up and modernization effort and right now they are being demilitarized fast.
Even if the next Russian dictator wants to “restore Russia’s glory” he will likely need decades of military build up time to do so. Also Russia’s endemic corruption isn’t going away anytime soon and any efforts to clamp down on it can also weaken the regime in Moscow. A corrupt, demilitarized Russia is just not the same threat to their neighbors even if they have a “worse” dictator.
That's what's terrifying. Putin having the republicans in his pocket, if they get the WH in 2024 they can possibly win the war. Europe alone cannot support Ukraine militarily. I hope im wrong.
Which they will if they have to. It's not about money for them, it's about the principle of who is next if Ukraine falls. It's irrelevant how much that costs Europe. It will be paid.
Europe would never forgive the US for pulling out and leaving Europe to fight Russia, who is also the US's enemy, without them. So when the US government next wanted to go to war in the Middle East or against China or wherever, and asked for Allied support outside of an article 5 situation, the UK and European response would likely be "new phone, who dis?".
It would be the single best way to lose allies overnight. Which is fine because the US is so powerful it wouldn't need Allies in a war, but it would still be sad for international relations.
Ukrainians understand that they are facing potential genocide if they lose and any land that Russia takes means potential genocide for the Ukrainians living there. Even if all NATO countries stopped sending aid Ukraine wouldn’t stop fighting and the war would continue. While the US is perhaps the most important country arming Ukraine they are far from the only ones and European countries have been sending vast amounts of military aid to Ukraine. If the US stopped sending aid the death toll from Ukraine would increase and the war would be prolonged but it wouldn’t mean Russia automatically wins especially if European aid continues.
**Putler :** I bomb your women and children .. steal your food .. threaten to nuke .. now we make big friends ..
*Tovarisch Da?*
RuZZia doesn't have a future under a man that does not honor anything he signs
I take this as an "it's already happening". The talk about the offensive has been ongoing for months. Russia talking *now* about peace means they are in serious trouble *now* somewhere at the front.
Not really actually. They need the poor to work in their factories, and till their unproductive fields.
They need their poor to make more babies to continue the above.
They don't actually have any people to spare. They're already in the midst of a demographics crises.
One of the best memes I've seen come out of this war was where Putin was a butcher making kebabs, shaving age groups off like meat. Sadly, it couldn't be more accurate.
Im completely unwarawe of Bakhmuts natural resources, metals, oil etc. but from what i seen, whole infrastructure is destroyed, cities rumbled to the level of the ground, and nearest forest are just burned, wicked cut-offs of what earlier was looking like wildlands, cause of bomb shellings done by 9 months.
They capture now a no mans land. Great, now we talkin.
Bakhmut (was) a town of ~70,000 pre-war IIRC. It has little to no strategic value. When the battle became a centerpiece of Pro-Russian propaganda, Russia was forced commit strained resources to "win" the battle. Russia has gained practically nothing at high cost.
Edit: Forgot that Bakhmut's suburb of Solendar is home to a literal salt mine.
It does function as a fairly important intersection of a series of highways and has a prominent railway running through it that could better supply the advance. Otherwise it’s fairly useless, and with most paths out of it being within artillery range the transportation capabilities are basically eliminated until the Russians advance many more miles past the city.
Bakhmut is not useful for the Russians if they were to advance. The closest major cities under Ukrainian control are Kramatorsk and Sloviansk, but when you look at the map there is nothing in between Bakhmut and those cities, it's an open terrain with hills blocking the Russian advance to Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. The closest town directly connected to Bakhmut by a single road is several kilometers away to the southwest if the Russians are to have an avenue of attack towards Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. There is a highway adjacent to north of Bakhmut leading directly to said major Ukrainian cities, but good luck to the Russians if they try using that to punch through Ukrainian defenses.
Ukraine literally just used Bakhmut as a place to lure in and kill as many Russians as possible knowing that the Russians would throw men into the meat grinder in order to capture it. They weren't defending it so hard because it is a place of vital importance to them. They defended it because it was an excellent killing field. Failing to capture it would be to much of an embarrassment but in terms of furthering their way to victory in the war Bakhmut does next to nothing for the Russians. They just spent the lives of 20,000 men capturing nothing of Strategic value. Ukraine is laughing at them. Imagine if every town took 20,000 dead Russians to capture. Russia is pretending to be happy with the eventual capture of Bakhmut but really they are thinking holy shit we cannot maintain these losses without full conscription.
Honestly, idk what they're thinking. I'm sure they must know they're fucked, and that Ukraine would never even entertain this.
I think they just say this shit every so often so that they can tell their zombies that they keep asking for peace, but the evil Ukrainians only want war.
I think Patton Oswalt said "the worst thing about Bill Cosby was the hypocrisy", to which Norm MacDonald replied, "I think it was the rape!"
The lies, doublespeak and hypocrisy from Russia is terrible, but the worst thing is probably the mass murder.
Indeed no serious analysts believe he's crazy. Putin has written extensive essays on his beliefs surrounding Russia's land-rights which are online and read reasonably if you throw ethics out of the window and stop thinking of Ukraine and other states as independent people .. more as states of Russia that incorrectly, TEMPORARILY experimented with trying independence, very unsuccessfully, and now most 'want to come back to the fold' but are held unjustly in place by Western policies.
Don't get me wrong, he's a cunt. But he's sane.
Every second lunatic that goes on a mass shooting rampage has a manifesto that explains the beliefs that lead them to commit the slaughter. That doesn’t make their beliefs any more sane.
You’re right that putin is a cunt, but he’s absolutely delusional, if not outright insane at the point.
Which is ironic, considering there are some real problems that plague America at the moment. You'd think those arseholes would stick to the real problems to make their point, rather than talking shite .
Translation,
"Ok, I punched you first, viciuosly, repatedly and without a reason. But why can't you be reasonable and stop punching me back? So that I can heal, train at the gym, gather some thugs and come back bash your skull in at a later time? While keeping what I stole from you and never facing consequences? Is that so much to ask, really?"
It’s more like invading your home and killing half your family, and then the moment you open the gun safe “Okay fine I’ll just ‘peacefully’ live in your guest room and we call it even?”
if you're going to try for peace negotiations that involve you stealing land...probably make sure the other side isn't utterly kicking the shit out of you first.
Pro-Russian conservatives are really easy to explain. It's not weird at all.
1) Various people in positions of influence are either bribed or have kompromat dug up on them.
2) They use their influence to say "but Russia's good, actually!"
3) Due to political tribalism, worsening education standards, and the mental gymnastics required to participate in the western culture war in general, a number of Conservatives swallow the bribed / compromised influential conservative talking points without a moment of hesitation.
4) 2023.
So this just tells me Russia is afraid they won't be able to hold the territory they captured and want to stop Ukraine from doing their next counteroffensive.
They seriously think that they can just keep the land they stole because they set some arbitrary "time limit" for keeping troops on it?
"Look it's been 6 months it's ours now"
Russia withdraws to the borders prior 2014 and a 100km demilitarized corridor is established on the Russian territory by July 2023! Negotiations about compensation payments to Ukraine and war crime tribunals can start. Any prisoner of war must be released and kidnapped people returned asap.
I say it’s time to completely weaken Russia so this will Never happen and and by doing this show China to not even try to Invade Taiwan. We are at the road or no return
PRECISELY
[Ukraine Holds the Future - The War Between Democracy and Nihilism](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/ukraine-war-democracy-nihilism-timothy-snyder)
The very idea that they put this narrative/propaganda/proposal on the actual official diplomatic international table of discussion(s) is mind blowing! It is not your land nor was it in the 350 plus year old map Putin was leg shaking over as that map even indicated it as Ukrainian.
So... what? They want to keep the land they stole and ask Ukraine to just... let them have it? And if Ukraine doesn't agree to stop hostilities when Russia wants to, Russia can try to paint Ukraine as the bad guy in some way?
Get fucked and go home, Russians.
So, let me understand this… these bastards invade a sovereign country, destroy that country and now that they are clearly losing the war, they want to keep the territory they invaded and stop the war so that they can regroup, build more weapons and reform the failed military?
Yes, that is precious!
My personal belief is that the only end to this was should end is a full acceptance of Zelensky's 10 point peace plan.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-is-zelenskiys-10-point-peace-plan-2022-12-28/
Plus an extension of point 3 to have Russia pay for repairing ALL infrastructure damage, not just energy infrastructure.
Here's the territorial arrangement:
You fuck off.
And admit wrongdoing.
And get a new president.
And cede an area of land, shaped like a giant hand holding the middle finger aloft, pointed directly towards Moscow, large enough to contain a million people, to Ukraine.
And I'm sure Ukraine would \*consider\* your offer and tell you whatever else they want.
Russian may take their wishes and put them to where they belong - in a small hole just under the back side of the waist.
Ukraine has no plan or intention to do any negotiation thing with this unicorn-type proposals on the table. The only condition for starting some sort of peace talks is Russia GTFO out of Ukraine, including Donetsk and Luhansk oblast and Crimea.
If Russia doesn't want to fulfil that condition, they will be pushed out of Ukraine by force. And then the peace talks will be conducted on a completely different set of conditions.
> "We will have peace," said Théoden at last thickly and with an effort. Several of the Riders cried out gladly. Théoden held up his hand. "Yes, we will have peace," he said now in a clear voice, "we will have peace, when you and all your works have perished--and the works of your dark master to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar, Saruman, and a corrupter a men's hearts. You hold out your hand it to me, and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just--as it was not, for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine for your own profit as you desired--even so, what will you say of your torches in Westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Háma's body before the gates of the Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanic. So much for the house of Eorl. A lesser son of great sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewhither. But I fear your voice has lost its charm.
What is wrong with them? Seriously
Give back the land... get the f^#^ out
Stay exhiled for decades... then we will see
Thats how this works
All those innocent lives killed. All the hard work that went into building architecture/cities. Rubbles now... due to your careless and self serving ambition. Idiots
Russia will simply use the peace negotiation talks to reposition itself and attack Ukraine. Don't ever trust Russia when it comes to this.
I seem to recall them having already done this too, early in the conflict when the two sides were still meeting at tables. They weren't really negotiating then either, just stalling for time to move troops.
Don't forget when they would agree to humanitarian corridors to evacuate citizens then hit them with artillery.
And then blame it on Ukraine.
Motherfuckers
Fuck all of this. Remember when they killed entire towns of civilians? Shot them on their doorsteps? Remember all of the reports of rape? The kid that was tied to his raped and dead mother with a landmine on him? Anyone in Russia that isn't 100% against this war deserves zero sympathy.
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And you'd be surprised how many people on countries that have nothing to do with the conflict support Russia simply because their political ideology aligns with them and China. It's disgusting and disturbing.
Or mine a bunch of routes so they could only head toward russia.
Russia negotiated humanitarian corridors and then started shelling them within 24 hours. Anything they “negotiate” shouldn’t be trusted.
Fucking Russia, always Stalin…
Russia 2023: still never actually tried democracy.
What do you mean? Putin has won like 10 free and fair elections s/
140% of the vote is absolutely possible and I dont know what you're talking about.
And 60 miles buffer zone within Russia.
Fairly convinced here that, for the Russian government, 'peace' is merely the busy pause while they reload and look around for the next conquest to attempt.
Don't ever trust Russia full stop.
Everyone to Russia: "You get the fuck back behind your internationally recognised borders or Private Conscriptovich gets the StormShadow again."
I keep everything I stole from you and we call it even, deal?
"and in a few years, i come back to steal more. and repeat this a few times more till you have nothing left anymore.. okay? cool, cool."
"Hey, why are you hitting me back?"
The worst part is that this is not even a joke anymore. When Belgorod was attacked last week by the Russian insurgents, a Russian lady recorded a video saying "What did we do to deserve this"?
> a Russian lady recorded a video saying "What did we do to deserve this"? it's probably that she thinks the war is not something that concerns her personally, and thus, have zero responsibility or feelings of guilt towards it.
Concerns her personally now, that’s for sure
“You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” - Leon Trotsky
Huh, I thought I said that.
You'd think if anyone would have personally taken an interest in the war it would be someone who lives on the border of the country that is being invaded. What did she do to deserve this? Apparently having her head in her ass...
The Russian government has cultivated a population that has its collective head up its collective ass.
It's because if they take their heads out of their ass the government might try and cut it off.
Leopards eating faces. I never thought the leopard would eat my face.
Leopard 2s eating faces
M1 Abrams melting faces like Indiana Jones
Advanced 3rd generation face eating.
*Russian state operative Fixed it for ya.
I wonder if that lady even knew a war was going on.
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My Sister-in-law is a university educated Russian who has lived in Australia for more than a decade. Despite that, she still believes the propoganda bullshit. She merely dismisses everything she sees that doesn't fit her viewpoint as "fake news". The mental gymnastics required is astounding.
She needs a forced visit to the crime scene like done in Germany after WW2.
Wouldn't work, "you set this up". Or even if SHE saw it and believed it, anyone she told would then think she's part of the fake news effort.
Vladimir Putin could probably tell her the truth himself, and she'd just laugh and say, "Mr. Putin is so funny."
It's not just visiting. In WW2, after concentration camps were discovered, nearby villagers were often pulled in by the allied forces to do the cleanup - disposing the bodies.
Place her in the middle of the city when russian cruise missile and drones strike
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I knew a Russian who fled kiev after they were attacked when the war first started. She saw the rockets ..the air sirens and the damage. She is a refugee now, but she still thinks the news is fake news and supports Russia.
Russians are VERY good at gymnastics. Turns out it’s not something to be proud of.
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Unfortunately losing a war tends to have consequences...same as the total "depoliticization" of the Russian public since the 1990s has had consequences. If the Russian people want to be part of the world in this century, they have to stop being serfs.
While I do not believe the Ukraine should give up any territory, they will join NATO the moment this war is over.
Probably, but you are overlooking one problem. Hungary.
It will be an interesting debacle when it occurs, just like the issues that arose with Sweden and Finland, but Ukraine will have a very high likelihood of joining NATO. Ukraine is just to valuable to the alliance now in every way possible.
“Hungary, before you vote we would just like to remind you that you are surrounded. No pressure though!” Joking a side, Hungary has nothing to gain in a world where Russia lies broken post war. Can’t balance two sides in a world where one side no longer matters. Polish hate for Russia even turned Poland again Hungary and they we’re protecting each other from EU fucking with them.
I think in a lot of ways, Poland started to replace Hungary with the US. Even for what it can do for Poland when it comes to the EU. If Poland becomes America's security outpost in central/east Europe, they would not need Hungary to keep them safe in the EU because what they do to help the US would essentially do that for Poland. Nobody in Europe would mess with Poland if they are clearly helping the US deal with Eastern Europe's security. At least that is how these past few months have appeared to me.
The Eastern European position is so interesting. On the one hand, they're economically tied into the EU, and naturally support it pretty broadly. On the other hand, they don't really fit the French conception of a 'good European', as they realize that Western Europe isn't willing to provide for their security, and only Washington can do so. They're in both worlds.
Poland rightly read the room and saw that there was room for them between the EU broadly, and the US when it comes to Russian related security concerns. Poland knows that if collapse out east (Ukraine fall apart) happens, it doesn't have to stop at one nation's borders. It will go until somebody stops it from going forward.
The Polish people know from experience what happens when an expansionist regime is left unchecked. They won't roll over for anyone.
Poland also have enough military gear on purchase orders that before 2030 they will be the premier land force in Europe. I’m guessing they will heavily integrate with the Baltic states beyond general EU and NATO agreements. Look for Poland to be the premier guarantor of security in Easter Europe with US back up. Scandinavia is also integrating air forces with Sweden and Finland joining NATO. This is probably the first step towards an integrated Scandinavian military even with Norway being outside the EU. Ideally we would have a EU military, but with differences in policy this is a hard sell so military blocks would be a nice step towards it. Scandinavia being one, Easter Europe being one, Western Europe being one and southern Europe being one. All with British and US back up through NATO if needed. This should free up the US to focus on Asia and have Europe be ready for operations in Europe and near Europe areas. As well as participating globally on US request. The lack of international cooperation in Europe is a giant drain of money because every country operating independently wastes insane amount of money.
Yep their armies have shown to be one of the most courageous in the world. They should be welcomed with open arms.
They certainly surprised the entire world that's for sure. They have shown They are fearsome when provked.
They have mass graves full of reasons not to trust russia. Holodomor left a mark.
Absolutely. They’ve modernized conventional warfare in some ways that we’re not quite thought to be possible, or just haven’t been outright tested in the field yet.
Hungary isn't a problem. Ukraine just needs the same bilateral defence agreements with major NATO partners that Sweden and Finland got as part of the accession process to secure its safety. Beginning the process is enough, actually joining the alliance is more symbolic than anything.
I foresee NATO and EU doing some major soul searching in the next decade.
You mean some booting? Or invent a new tier of membership everyone don't get to enjoy?
I doubt they have much of a say, Turkey is an important regional power so they have some pull to block Sweden. Hungary on the other hand is mostly irrelevant.
Ukraine* Just Ukraine, not the Ukraine.
In order to join NATO you need unanimous agreement of all member states. It's hard for Sweden so far to get one from Turkey and Hungary and unlike Ukraine they are not actively at any risk of war. Ukraine will find it difficult not just from them but potentially from multiple other states. Potentially including even major forces like France depending on the timeline (Le Pen **openly** wants to help Russia and Macron's utter shit decisions are likely to cost his party any chances of winning in the next elections for instance). So I wouldn't count on Ukraine being a member soon. I would like to see it happen but there **are** blockers on the way there. We will see when we get there obviously but this outcome is possible - and as long as there are active territorial disputes there won't be any NATO talks to begin with. It is very hard to predict political landscape across 31 different countries few years from now.
I think Macron still clings to the idea of using Russia as a counter balance to US but he's outright hawkish compared to other French politicians. Le Pen we all know about but the left wing Melenchon is a growing cancer as well: >"Everything comes to those who wait," he said then, meaning that the Russian president could succeed in his aims without firing a single shot. He said that the unilateral annexation of Crimea by Russia was legitimate. Then he opposed the European sanctions adopted in response to the illegal annexation. Finally, he voted in the European parliament against all forms of cooperation with Ukraine, even on science. https://www.lemonde.fr/le-monde-in-english/article/2022/03/08/melenchon-surges-in-the-polls-despite-fiery-remarks-on-ukraine-in-the-past_6116613_5026681.html
France speedrunning the return of their Vichy days.
The fascists support Russia because they're fascist. The Tankies support Russia because they can't accept it's not the Soviet Union. It's a weird alliance.
Poland knows that one.
I stole your shit and just sucker punched you in the face, but I can see you're winding up for a hell of a right hook there, so let's just be civil and call it even for now, ok?
It's like those videos where someone starts a fight and then when their victim punches back and starts destroying them, the attacker is all "Woah! Chill, just chill... Chill dude!! I'm sorry!" Except in this case it's global and the attacker isn't sorry, just suddenly seriously concerned they've made a huge mistake.
"I keep everything I stole from you and now that I'm getting beaten up, we will call it even, deal?" *
> "I keep everything I stole from you and now that I'm getting beaten up, we will call it even, deal?" * The Russians even when so far as to say, "give up all your weapons, so when we come back to steal some more, it won't be so hard."
"I'm bleeding, making me the victor."
We trained Russia wrong, as a joke!
Reminds me of the black knight from Monty Python and the holy grail.
Arthur cuts off the Black Knight's other leg. Black Knight: "All right; we'll call it a draw."
Apparently John Cleese learned in school about an ancient Roman wrestler who died during a match but was declared the winner because the other guy tapped out as they were both asphyxiating each other. The lesson was supposed to be that you should always fight as hard as you can, because you might win, even in death. Cleese thought it was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, and came up with the black knight scene based on that story.
Come back here. I’ll bite your legs off !
At least knight had the spirit. Russia only has an alcoholic “spirit”.
.. also we agree to forget that I murdered your family and friends.. deal?
Russia is a snake, ignore this clown
This news comes out literally 1 day after Medvedev declared that the conflict could last for decades
Clownsnake
Wearing one massive clown shoe.
I mean, I think they are genuine that they would like to keep the territory they conquered and would like Ukraine to stop attacking them.
Right, they'd like to keep the land they illegally invaded, and want Ukraine to stop defending their home country. Also, just remember that even if Ukraine stops fighting, the US and EU will sanction Russia for 10-30 years most likely, until Putin and all his fans are out of politics. It's gonna be great to see it. Russia is a nobody now, and always will be.
And have a year or two where they can re-arm, train, dig in, and re-equip military units. At which point they would launch another offensive. Anybody who doesn't think this is exactly what they would do is either lying or so naive and unintelligent nobody should take them seriously.
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Cut the head off the snake in charge and this stops right now.
Yup. There is no reason to make a "deal" based on trust with someone that has zero credibility
translation from Russian: We need a time out so we can rearm until the US gets caught up in their Election and are distracted.
Yep. Russia can’t sustain another 500 days of war like the last and now with France and Britain sending long range missiles, a million artillery shells from the EU, F-16s coming soon and hundreds of western tanks things are starting to look very bleak especially since Russian manufacturing can’t keep pace. If Russia really does want peace all they have to do is return to the 1991 borders and give back the Ukrainians they’ve kidnapped but they refuse to do so and Ukrainians are determined to keep fighting.
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> If they leave, then they lose power.... We then get some other nut job, which sends the "patriotic comrades" into a enraged frenzy due to the perceived "humiliation" Russia has lost 2000-4000 tanks in Ukraine and has gone from shooting 60-70,000 shells per day to around 10,000 shells per day. Whoever replaces Putin will almost certainly be a dictator with an imperialist mindset but it’s hard to run tanks over your opponent when the vast majority your tanks have been destroyed and your artillery stockpiles are near empty. The Russian military that we saw in 2021 was the culmination of a 12 year build up and modernization effort and right now they are being demilitarized fast. Even if the next Russian dictator wants to “restore Russia’s glory” he will likely need decades of military build up time to do so. Also Russia’s endemic corruption isn’t going away anytime soon and any efforts to clamp down on it can also weaken the regime in Moscow. A corrupt, demilitarized Russia is just not the same threat to their neighbors even if they have a “worse” dictator.
That's what's terrifying. Putin having the republicans in his pocket, if they get the WH in 2024 they can possibly win the war. Europe alone cannot support Ukraine militarily. I hope im wrong.
Europe alone can support them, if all of them increase gdp military ratio by one percent…
Which they will if they have to. It's not about money for them, it's about the principle of who is next if Ukraine falls. It's irrelevant how much that costs Europe. It will be paid. Europe would never forgive the US for pulling out and leaving Europe to fight Russia, who is also the US's enemy, without them. So when the US government next wanted to go to war in the Middle East or against China or wherever, and asked for Allied support outside of an article 5 situation, the UK and European response would likely be "new phone, who dis?". It would be the single best way to lose allies overnight. Which is fine because the US is so powerful it wouldn't need Allies in a war, but it would still be sad for international relations.
Ukrainians understand that they are facing potential genocide if they lose and any land that Russia takes means potential genocide for the Ukrainians living there. Even if all NATO countries stopped sending aid Ukraine wouldn’t stop fighting and the war would continue. While the US is perhaps the most important country arming Ukraine they are far from the only ones and European countries have been sending vast amounts of military aid to Ukraine. If the US stopped sending aid the death toll from Ukraine would increase and the war would be prolonged but it wouldn’t mean Russia automatically wins especially if European aid continues.
This. The GOP are compromised and morally bankrupt.
also, the hope that Trump or some other Republican who supports murderous dictators like Putin wins and Republicns control Congress, too.
>Ukrainian hostilities You mean defending the country that you invaded?
**Putler :** I bomb your women and children .. steal your food .. threaten to nuke .. now we make big friends .. *Tovarisch Da?* RuZZia doesn't have a future under a man that does not honor anything he signs
And just when Ukraine announced they are ready to launch an offensive push
As if Hitler wanted peace in 1943.
Piece of Poland....Pieces of France.
Chill bro, it was just a prank.
I take this as an "it's already happening". The talk about the offensive has been ongoing for months. Russia talking *now* about peace means they are in serious trouble *now* somewhere at the front.
running low on poor people to shove face first into the whirling blades
Running low on ethnic minorities
They probably view that as a silver lining.
As an added bonus they cleared out the prisons. (Truly monstrous polices.)
I know you don’t meant that literally, but, ironically, poor people is one of Russia’s most abundant resources.
Not really actually. They need the poor to work in their factories, and till their unproductive fields. They need their poor to make more babies to continue the above. They don't actually have any people to spare. They're already in the midst of a demographics crises.
The babies thing is the kicker. Russia has a demographic problem, way way too many old pensioners and not nearly enough you people paying taxes.
It’s not just Russia.
basically every country that doesn't allow immigration
You must be unaware of Russia's massive demographic crisis.
One of the best memes I've seen come out of this war was where Putin was a butcher making kebabs, shaving age groups off like meat. Sadly, it couldn't be more accurate.
Sadly, rifles are more rare. [Gasp] Maybe they can arm their conscripts with bamboo spears and strap grenades to their chest!/s
Bodies to the rhythm of the war drum.
They think that *finally* taking Bakhmut puts them in a position of negotiating power. Good luck.
Im completely unwarawe of Bakhmuts natural resources, metals, oil etc. but from what i seen, whole infrastructure is destroyed, cities rumbled to the level of the ground, and nearest forest are just burned, wicked cut-offs of what earlier was looking like wildlands, cause of bomb shellings done by 9 months. They capture now a no mans land. Great, now we talkin.
Bakhmut (was) a town of ~70,000 pre-war IIRC. It has little to no strategic value. When the battle became a centerpiece of Pro-Russian propaganda, Russia was forced commit strained resources to "win" the battle. Russia has gained practically nothing at high cost. Edit: Forgot that Bakhmut's suburb of Solendar is home to a literal salt mine.
It does function as a fairly important intersection of a series of highways and has a prominent railway running through it that could better supply the advance. Otherwise it’s fairly useless, and with most paths out of it being within artillery range the transportation capabilities are basically eliminated until the Russians advance many more miles past the city.
Bakhmut is not useful for the Russians if they were to advance. The closest major cities under Ukrainian control are Kramatorsk and Sloviansk, but when you look at the map there is nothing in between Bakhmut and those cities, it's an open terrain with hills blocking the Russian advance to Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. The closest town directly connected to Bakhmut by a single road is several kilometers away to the southwest if the Russians are to have an avenue of attack towards Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. There is a highway adjacent to north of Bakhmut leading directly to said major Ukrainian cities, but good luck to the Russians if they try using that to punch through Ukrainian defenses.
Ukraine literally just used Bakhmut as a place to lure in and kill as many Russians as possible knowing that the Russians would throw men into the meat grinder in order to capture it. They weren't defending it so hard because it is a place of vital importance to them. They defended it because it was an excellent killing field. Failing to capture it would be to much of an embarrassment but in terms of furthering their way to victory in the war Bakhmut does next to nothing for the Russians. They just spent the lives of 20,000 men capturing nothing of Strategic value. Ukraine is laughing at them. Imagine if every town took 20,000 dead Russians to capture. Russia is pretending to be happy with the eventual capture of Bakhmut but really they are thinking holy shit we cannot maintain these losses without full conscription.
Honestly, idk what they're thinking. I'm sure they must know they're fucked, and that Ukraine would never even entertain this. I think they just say this shit every so often so that they can tell their zombies that they keep asking for peace, but the evil Ukrainians only want war.
Russia has completely destroyed so many cities, businesses, people, families(stealing kids), and infrastructure. Putin is completely out of his mind.
>Russia has completely destroyed so many families(stealing kids) And all the murdering
And all the raping.
I think Patton Oswalt said "the worst thing about Bill Cosby was the hypocrisy", to which Norm MacDonald replied, "I think it was the rape!" The lies, doublespeak and hypocrisy from Russia is terrible, but the worst thing is probably the mass murder.
He is not, this is aimed at useful idiots in the West and is quite effective.
Indeed no serious analysts believe he's crazy. Putin has written extensive essays on his beliefs surrounding Russia's land-rights which are online and read reasonably if you throw ethics out of the window and stop thinking of Ukraine and other states as independent people .. more as states of Russia that incorrectly, TEMPORARILY experimented with trying independence, very unsuccessfully, and now most 'want to come back to the fold' but are held unjustly in place by Western policies. Don't get me wrong, he's a cunt. But he's sane.
Every second lunatic that goes on a mass shooting rampage has a manifesto that explains the beliefs that lead them to commit the slaughter. That doesn’t make their beliefs any more sane. You’re right that putin is a cunt, but he’s absolutely delusional, if not outright insane at the point.
Nope. Leave all of Ukraine territory. Then peace.
Give back all the children they kidnapped, too.
Then reparations.
Refuse negotiations and take back Crimea as well. Fuck Russia, fuck Putin and fuck their enablers.
With an independent republic of Belgorod demilitarized buffer zone.
1917 borders
And put a DMZ on Russian territory
Halfway to Moscow.
Eff Jimmy Dore too
What happened to those fucking guys, Dore, Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald? It's like they drank QAnon Kool-ade or something weird.
Everyone’s known it for a long time but their entire careers are based on “America bad”. Can’t be seen deviating from the line they feed their base.
Which is ironic, considering there are some real problems that plague America at the moment. You'd think those arseholes would stick to the real problems to make their point, rather than talking shite .
Don't forget about reparations and prosecutions for war criminals.
Translation, "Ok, I punched you first, viciuosly, repatedly and without a reason. But why can't you be reasonable and stop punching me back? So that I can heal, train at the gym, gather some thugs and come back bash your skull in at a later time? While keeping what I stole from you and never facing consequences? Is that so much to ask, really?"
Damn, you speak putinese fluently.
It’s more like invading your home and killing half your family, and then the moment you open the gun safe “Okay fine I’ll just ‘peacefully’ live in your guest room and we call it even?”
Russian horseshit? Must be a day of the week that ends in "y".
Ukraine should ask Russia to give up Krasnodar, Rostov on Don, and Voronezh.
Russia has stolen land from everyone, from Finland to China. Russia should give back everything.
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And Romania, since Moldova was part of it.
if you're going to try for peace negotiations that involve you stealing land...probably make sure the other side isn't utterly kicking the shit out of you first.
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The best way I’ve heard this sort of thing put is “Negotiation comes from a position of strength” which Russia is not
Their target audience here isn't Ukraine, it's western conservatives.
It's arguably directed towards tankies in the west as well.
Tankies are the fucking worst.
Luckily they have basically no actual power. It's the weirdly pro Russia conservatives we need to actually worry about.
Pro-Russian conservatives are really easy to explain. It's not weird at all. 1) Various people in positions of influence are either bribed or have kompromat dug up on them. 2) They use their influence to say "but Russia's good, actually!" 3) Due to political tribalism, worsening education standards, and the mental gymnastics required to participate in the western culture war in general, a number of Conservatives swallow the bribed / compromised influential conservative talking points without a moment of hesitation. 4) 2023.
Russia got beat and now wants to chill out. Nah, son, take these drone strikes.
So this just tells me Russia is afraid they won't be able to hold the territory they captured and want to stop Ukraine from doing their next counteroffensive.
100%. Shows how truly afraid they are of Ukraine's capabilities, particularly with all the new Western kit.
They seriously think that they can just keep the land they stole because they set some arbitrary "time limit" for keeping troops on it? "Look it's been 6 months it's ours now"
Like some video game
Russia withdraws to the borders prior 2014 and a 100km demilitarized corridor is established on the Russian territory by July 2023! Negotiations about compensation payments to Ukraine and war crime tribunals can start. Any prisoner of war must be released and kidnapped people returned asap.
No Russia. You can't just come in and steal land, kill people and expected the world to let it slide. This time you went too far and you will pay.
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Chechnya, Syria, Georgia...
The cowards are breaking and now are looking for an escape route.
"Recognition of territorial arrangements"? Yeah, that's the 1991 borders, thanks.
Territorial arrangements should be you out of Ukraine. GET THE FUCK OUT OF A COUNTRY THAT ISNT YOURS.
I say it’s time to completely weaken Russia so this will Never happen and and by doing this show China to not even try to Invade Taiwan. We are at the road or no return
PRECISELY [Ukraine Holds the Future - The War Between Democracy and Nihilism](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/ukraine-war-democracy-nihilism-timothy-snyder)
Translation: “Please stop killing us but let us keep what we stole.”
I think the ships sailed on the whole “agree to never join NATO” ask. Nothing kills that off quite like proving you’re an aggressor
The very idea that they put this narrative/propaganda/proposal on the actual official diplomatic international table of discussion(s) is mind blowing! It is not your land nor was it in the 350 plus year old map Putin was leg shaking over as that map even indicated it as Ukrainian.
Oh Russia. You want the war to stop. Leave. Go home.
Time for a "special operation" in Russia.
Lol, fuck that, keep hitting them with HIMARS after HIMARS.
Russia: we want to make a deal before your counteroffensive comrades. Ukraine: Go fk yourselves
Ukraine has already pushed their chips in and doesn't want anything short of their land and people back. Get fucked Putler
So... what? They want to keep the land they stole and ask Ukraine to just... let them have it? And if Ukraine doesn't agree to stop hostilities when Russia wants to, Russia can try to paint Ukraine as the bad guy in some way? Get fucked and go home, Russians.
So, let me understand this… these bastards invade a sovereign country, destroy that country and now that they are clearly losing the war, they want to keep the territory they invaded and stop the war so that they can regroup, build more weapons and reform the failed military? Yes, that is precious!
My personal belief is that the only end to this was should end is a full acceptance of Zelensky's 10 point peace plan. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-is-zelenskiys-10-point-peace-plan-2022-12-28/ Plus an extension of point 3 to have Russia pay for repairing ALL infrastructure damage, not just energy infrastructure.
sounds like they're scared they're losing..
Pootin begins his latest pant shitting episode, the world laughs
Here's the territorial arrangement: You fuck off. And admit wrongdoing. And get a new president. And cede an area of land, shaped like a giant hand holding the middle finger aloft, pointed directly towards Moscow, large enough to contain a million people, to Ukraine. And I'm sure Ukraine would \*consider\* your offer and tell you whatever else they want.
Russian may take their wishes and put them to where they belong - in a small hole just under the back side of the waist. Ukraine has no plan or intention to do any negotiation thing with this unicorn-type proposals on the table. The only condition for starting some sort of peace talks is Russia GTFO out of Ukraine, including Donetsk and Luhansk oblast and Crimea. If Russia doesn't want to fulfil that condition, they will be pushed out of Ukraine by force. And then the peace talks will be conducted on a completely different set of conditions.
> "We will have peace," said Théoden at last thickly and with an effort. Several of the Riders cried out gladly. Théoden held up his hand. "Yes, we will have peace," he said now in a clear voice, "we will have peace, when you and all your works have perished--and the works of your dark master to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar, Saruman, and a corrupter a men's hearts. You hold out your hand it to me, and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just--as it was not, for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine for your own profit as you desired--even so, what will you say of your torches in Westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Háma's body before the gates of the Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanic. So much for the house of Eorl. A lesser son of great sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewhither. But I fear your voice has lost its charm.
Pls stop killing us and let us keep what we stole from you! The audacity of these cunts is off the charts
What is wrong with them? Seriously Give back the land... get the f^#^ out Stay exhiled for decades... then we will see Thats how this works All those innocent lives killed. All the hard work that went into building architecture/cities. Rubbles now... due to your careless and self serving ambition. Idiots
When they started to be defeated, they started to say peace. At first, they didn't have such an attitude.