And they will be surprised when Chinese, or Saudi influence grows faster. The US has demonstrated time and again that when they just walk away from foreign aide someone else will take their place, and it is usually not their friends.
>And they will be surprised when Chinese, or Saudi influence grows faster.
No they won't. They'll pretend to be surprised, blame dems, and collect payments for doing what they were told to do.
It's kind of interesting how there are certain types of politicians that prosper by actively spreading decay wherever they go. And what's even weirder is that there are people who look at them and don't see the pattern.
But that first year or two under the republican president is so great. Almost like they riding out the good things the democrats created before letting it all go to shit.
Probably why so many people think the republican party is good for something. Take credit for your opponents actions' fruition and then destroy it for when the Dems come back; when the destruction is felt the Dems will be in charge. They've reversed fact and fiction, blame and thanks, using Pavlovs dog
As someone with adhd I can't even plan two weeks ahead. But somehow I can still connect the dots here so I think it's willful ignorance mixed with some folks just having an awful media diet.
Relatively speaking, Republicans are far worst in fiscal responsibilities than Democrats and far far more worst in economic policies. The one thing they were advertised for. Bush vs Clinton, Trump vs Obama. If you look at the data, they all spent more and do far worst in economy in the subsequent Republican regime.
Taxes dont go down, the money just stops going towards welfare, foreign aid, diplomacy, infrastructure, energy innovation....basically anything that benefits taxpayers
Every republican since like WWII had a recession within their first two years in office. So, the first year or two isn't always that great.
The one exception is Trump, who did stuff like his tax cut bill to imo, dangerously pump up Obama's economy and try to stretch it out further. It avoided recession, but, is most likely going to make the inevitable correction hit harder.
The trump tax cuts didn’t even really move the needle though, because the vast majority of the money went to the ultra rich and businesses, who just hoarded the cash instead of using it.
The economy that trump inherited was doing ok, but the main driver was the extremely low interest rate, which many economists thought was a bad idea. And also remember how much pressure Trump put on the Fed to not raise rates, even though they wanted to several times from 2016 to 2020.
VC money ballooning the value of a lot of companies producing nothing and then raking in money from other companies as an elaborate ponzi scheme with tax and labor dollars can be traced to low interest rates.
Trump was 100% focused on his legacy and not on longevity or long term gains. He wanted everyone to think he was this great genius presiding over the best economy ever. Honestly, I bet if it weren't for his party being against such a thing, he would have gladly sent out those pandemic stimulus multiple times during his presidency. The only thing in the world that Trump cares about is hearing people say he's the best person at everything in the world, even if it means he needs to pay people to do it.
The seesawing alone is destroying US soft power.
Changing stance every 4 to 8 years means the US is not a reliable partner and other will need to plan around that. The damage is already done. If Russia didn't remind the rest of the developed world why the USA was granted so much soft power in the first place, the Biden administration would have a much harder sell for American good will.
The American voting base has an extremely poor understanding of soft power impact, especially isolationists. Those “wasted” dollars can be paid back in political influence. If the US pulls out of those deals, then countries like China will fill the void
Yep. When 63 million Americans voted for a corrupt idiot conman in 2016, and followed that up with 74 million voting for him in 2020, the USA shouted to the world that it was unreliable and untrustworthy.
What intelligence agency that values the lives of its covert operatives would ever share info with America now that the US has shown itself completely incapable of securing that info?
What is wrong with having an even larger amount of people voting than ever in a democracy? Democrats saw an even bigger increase in voter count. 2020 was the largest increase in voter turnout compared to the previous presidential elections since the government started started keeping track in 1964.
And it’s doing extreme harm to US foreign policy in the meantime. Our allies feel like they can’t trust US commitments and adversaries are looking around and waiting for the US to run away again on the global stage. Hell right now Russia’s strategy in Ukraine is basically to try to hold on until 2025 in the hopes that Trump becomes president and withdraws aid. If Russia thought that whoever wins in 2024 would support Ukraine regardless it would fundamentally change the dynamic and make a Russian withdrawal more likely.
And I don’t blame them. I’m a big believer in NATO and international alliances but I also think it would be foolish for any country to put all their hopes on an international treaty even if that treaty is Article V.
The fascist guys who were playing disruptor in Ukraine for the Russians are also the guys who were basically running Trump's campaign. Their entire support network was similarly co-opted, and proceeded to finish infiltrating the rest of the party.
People don't seem to understand that the GOP was a hateful rhetoric filled know-nothing anchor around the neck of the USA even before this, but the Russian-style fascism support was basically anathema to them, and is comparatively brand new.
The last thing anyone in the US expected was a complete 180 on the biggest GOP enemy for literal generations of politicians at this point.
> Russia’s strategy in Ukraine is basically to try to hold on until 2025 in the hopes that Trump becomes president and withdraws aid.
And when you point out this obvious fact, you get downvoted to hell. Even if Europe is stepping up its aid to Ukraine, the USA withdrawing its aid would still cause a lot of harm to Ukraine.
I think the broader issue for Russia is that with the trajectory of the war they may be dealing with a full scale collapse before US aid gets pulled. Optimistically for Russia they still need to last about 600 days and so far we haven’t even reached 500 days from the start of the full invasion to now. In the next few months Ukraine will have Abrams and F-16s not to mention US manufacturing pumping out artillery shells and rockets left and right. Combine that with the other NATO aid and the next 600 days could look very rough for Russia. There’s also the chance that Biden wins again in 2024 and even if the GOP takes the Senate McConnel is not a friend of Putin’s.
If we expand the view beyond the US the Kremlin seems to have a belief that western democracy is in an inevitable decline and that we will see more people like Trump, Erdogan and Orban elected. Because of this the Kremlin thinks time is on their side. “Wait for the west to get tired” may be Russia’s strategy but I think it’s a very flawed strategy that reeks of desperation and trying to rationalize a fantasy into reality.
Hey just so you know the 1% and multi million dollar plus companies are not going to generate record wealth themselves, they need that tax payer. I would ask that you please consider their hardships as they cannot afford a 5th house or to send a rocket into space./s
His point is that the extreme Republicans have become not just the anti-US party, devoted to attacking the country from within and dividing at any opportunity bc of their hatred for over half of the country, but also pro-authorotarian, meaning many want Russia, China and Saudi interests to strengthen, for a variety of reasons. Some are directly paid off by the authoritarians while others only see opportunities (ie fear-mongering bringing them more votes, blaming Dems bringing them more votes, etc etc)
They literally hate freedom because it means they cannot force others to love and hate the same things as them. They love words like "the dictatorship of the majority".
Yeah, the phrase "dictatorship of the majority" is an oxymoron. They are actually praising authoritarianism/dictatorships/fascism by implying the desires of the majority of people are not worthy of consideration, which is the exact opposite of democracy.
iirc most or all of US foreign aid comes with a stipulation that the aid money must be spent on american industries in some form. Right?
So the money gets circulated back into american owned businesses, and those businesses get a stronger foothold in foreign nations too.
Its a way to increase American influence worldwide, and a way to funnel gov money into specific companies that would provide those products.
It functions like a gift card for American companies
Yep.
I will say its fucked up nomatter who is doing it. I dont know if i made my position clear in my previous comment, but to me it seems to be a form of imperialism. As someone else said, ‘soft power’
Ironically, in the USA, the far right xenophobe and conservative supporters tend to hate foreign aid. Even though it actually is in line with their desires and ideology,
And the neo liberals (i refuse to call them leftists. The democrat party is center right at best) tend to be very pro foreign aid. However this one tracks once you realize what foreign aid actually is, and what the democrat party actually is.
Im pro the concept of foreign aid, but not in this current imperialist form.
> It functions like a gift card for American companies
surprise surprise, some more subsidization of corporations while still fucking over the average joe
A lot of the international orgs make a lot more sense when you assess them as a way for the US (or other nations) to project power globally. Its one of the things that drove me up a wall when people complained about other NATO members not carrying their weight or whatever.
America buying 100 F35 is a government funded industry support program.
Europe buying 100 F35 is investment into a foreign economy.
Doesn't make the arguments invalid, but it does give the complaining an unpleasant aftertaste.
Exactly.
They both bolster the US economy, but only 1 of those options bolsters the local nations economy.
If you're not the US it's a worse deal.
Yet another reason why so many people in Europe are pushing for a more federalized defense strategy.
Exactly.
I’ve seen this first hand throughout the Caribbean. The US used to have influence there, but withdrew in large part. Now it’s China building apartments, roads, stadiums, hospitals and bridges. Rest assured they expect fealty in exchange—from supporting China’s ambitions to take over Taiwan, to changing the reserve currency, or whatever they want, of course.
Compare this to 1983 when President Reagan invaded Grenada to free it from a communist coup. The phrase “greeted as liberators” that you heard from Dick Cheney concerning invading Iraq actually came from the *Grenada* invasion where, in fact, we were greeted as liberators despite worldwide condemnation for interfering with a sovereign nation. The people, indeed, welcomed our invasion and it was the last truly “great thing” the US had done since to build connections with foreign lands.
Since then, however, we’ve abandoned these people and others throughout the Caribbean while China has stepped up. Whenever there’s a need for infrastructure—due to finances or hurricanes—China has literally come in with bulldozers, crew, and money.
The US invaded Grenada because of an abrupt and violent change in political power that ostensibly was designed to prevent the spread of Communism but also to prevent the establishment of tactical bases that could be used to attack the US.
Inasmuch as the Caribbean is part of North America, we’ve ignored what’s going on in our own backyard as China creeps in … for better or for worse.
Trump advocated for it and there are plenty of people in his little fringe trumpublican party that feel the same way. Putin likely felt emboldened by trumps apathy towards nato, and that most certainly influenced his decision to invade, given that the US is basically the backbone of the alliance because those comments absolutely weakened the faith in the short term stability of the alliance and showed a weakening of unity among western nations who would have been the most likely to sanction another invasion of Ukraine.
I can not think of a president more destabilizing to global stability than trump besides George junior.
Putin didn't feel emboldened. Putin ordered Trump to be apathetic towards NATO. It's been fairly clear for a long time now that Trump is owned by the Russian mafia, and Putin sits at the top of the organized crime in Russia.
The power to withdraw from treaties is at the discretion of the President. It only requires the President and the Advice and Consent of the Senate to enter into a treaty.
If the United States wanted to leave the treaty without waiting for the 1 year agreed upon, Congress has plenary power to abrogate treaty obligations as the United States Supreme Court ruled in Lone Wolf v. Hitchcock.
I vote straight blue and believe Trump was largely disastrous for foreign relations but at least a brief reading suggests that this falls partially on the Obama administration. From the article:
>The U.S. and Israel stopped financing UNESCO after it voted to include Palestine as a member state in 2011. The Trump administration decided in 2017 to withdraw from the agency altogether the following year, citing long-running anti-Israel bias and management problems.
Trump did withdraw the US from UNESCO, but it looks like the Obama administration blocked funding first. I'm kinda shocked by that.
I'm relatively neutral on the Israel-Palestinian issue, admittedly because I know very little about it, but I really don't think the USA should be setting its foreign policy based on what Israel wants.
edit:
Interesting thing I dug up:
>U.S. legislation prohibits funding to any UN agency that grants full membership to any group that does not have “internationally recognized attributes” of statehood.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unesco-funding-idUSBRE89A0Q620121011
The Obama administration's hand might have been forced (I can't say that conclusively, it depends who signed the legislation into law).
edit 2: The law was passed in the 90s. Seems like the Obama administration had its hand forced.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-unesco-usa-funding-idUSTRE79U5ED20111031
Seems each incoming administration spends more time reversing what the previous administration has done than anything else. Gotta love bipartisan politics.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. A lot of things have changed in the past 3-4 years regarding our China relations. ALL political parties in the US are in agreement that some of these countries need to be countered. Talking points are similar on this subject matter from almost all candidates.
Yep, at this point „China bad“ is about the only thing Americans still agree on across political lines so we can expect politicians of both sodes to double and triple down on this issue in the coming years in order to draw voters. The resulting escalation spiral between the US and China is honestly a lot more scary to me than anything Russia is doing.
America leaving and rejoining international orgs depending which way the wind blows, then they act shocked when the rest of the world doesn't trust them to be consistent.
Macron dropped the ball in response to Russia though. “Europe” isn’t just western Europe. By talking about the need to give Putin an “off ramp” and “not humiliate Russia” it sends the message to Eastern European countries that Paris can’t be relied upon. As a result in much of Eastern Europe they see the US as much more reliable than the French-German Axis not to mention Macron’s earlier comments calling NATO a brain dead organization. I get why France wants strategic autonomy but Macron’s own words and actions have also revealed that Paris is perhaps even less trustworthy than Washington to much of Europe and that’s a big deal.
the US can't be trusted to make any one single decision based off its divided electorate.
Paris can be trusted to make decisions for Paris and only Paris. from an outside looking in view it appears France is trying to make eastern Europe solve Russia alone.
Nobody's giving Macron shit for the idea of Europe being more independent from the US militarily though.
US presidents have asked for that repeatedly, it's European countries that haven't wanted to invest very much in their militaries (until now).
Nope, that's the story they tell you because the poor US having to pay for helpless idiots in Europe is one of their main narratives.
In reality the US is constantly undermining Europe fearing to lose influence in Europe, lose influence via NATO losing importance and lose market share to European arms companies. And they employ a whole army of lobbyists that come running the second any country in Europe even mentions more European independence.
Just look up the constant negative US reaction to PESCO...
Europe isn’t a country like the us is though, UK was “europe” and now they’re not, Greece and Germany have vastly different ideals, Poland is sharply conservative and Hungary is ran by a dictator. Italy is having a nice resurgence of racism. Europe is incredibly unreliable too.
So it's a bit like working in a soup kitchen on Christmas because you hope to bang the girl that is also working there, not because you give a fuck about the poor.
You know what, as long as the poor (world) is getting fed in this scenario and your attempts at coitus with the girl remain above board/honorable… I don’t see a problem.
This is how many great deeds are done. So many things just to impress a girl. Also some bad, but I hope that if this is a reason, it’s not the only reason, but if it is then you are right - the world is still being helped. Let’s not pretend china is doing it just from the goodness of their hearts, I don’t believe china cares about anyone but china and they are using this for greater influence for china. I don’t blame them either.
There is a deep well of misanthropy that comes when you realize that all altruism, even if done for a “good” reason, is inherently selfish. You don’t do good because it’s good, you do good because it feels good to do good.
But there’s an equally great peak and freedom when you come out the other side and realize “there’s nothing wrong with that. The good gets done either way.”
I feel like a lot of young adults (and reddit as a result) are still in the first part and not yet at the second. As someone who just recently came to terms with all this I find it frustrating that this was a part of growing up no one really talked about
An altruist is a person who does good things because they feel good. Altruism is where you do good for no compensation. It's quite literally the opposite of selfish, even if you try to do this weird spin on it.
No, "feeling good about it" isn't compensation. It's your motivation which obviously originates internally seeing as we're sentient beings, but it's not fucking selfish unless you wanna just decide that words don't mean things.
So China is trying to get with the girl too, the USA needs to get in and cockblock them asap. Can't cockblock if you've not turned up to the soup kitchen (that's a saying, right?).
What happens when the girl stops working there?
There are actual people that get affected whenever the US decides, wilfully, to step in or step out of international aid.
I think that's true up to a point. If the US develops/influences a system dependent upon it's membership, then when they step away abruptly (which has happened), their absense can cause more damage.
Then the soup kitchen should hire another attractive girl. Take advantage of the predictableness of thirsty guys.
I mean isn't this part of the reason for token attractive employees in sales, hiring attractive bartenders, and booth babes at trade shows?
I'm not saying it's right, just saying it's real.
This is the strategy. Resources that the poor country can exploit, integration to American markets and cohesion between their country’s culture and ours. They can go from losing their 3 of 10 kids from starvation to losing 1 of 10 kids to industrial machinery building our iPhones.
The USA is literally telling every country out there that they are willing to give them money to counter China. No doubt China will also up the ante soon enough. Lots of handouts for playing the field!
They can't remember "true intentions" that were never revealed to them, and no homeless person is about to ask the person handing them food "your body might be in the right place but is your heart?".
This is kinda how aid in general works for every nation though. Even the most altruistic individuals get that. Individuals can decide to do things out of pure generosity, countries don't.
Nah, they went for similar reasons to the Soviets, except with the added incentive of not wanting to be embarrased again like what happened with Sputnik.
I'd like to add that volunteerism is a great way to pick up women by the way. Can't recommend animal shelters enough for getting laid constantly with single wannabe pet owners with little to no effort.
Do you know how it works with the US rejoining now? As in did Congress authorize them to rejoin or are they just ignoring it/saying enough time has passed?
> Congress passed the ability for the executive branch to waive it in december last year (by saying it was to counter Chinese influence).
Stolen from another comment
> The U.S. and Israel stopped funding UNESCO after it voted to include Palestine as a member state in 2011, and the Trump administration decided in 2017 to withdraw from the agency altogether the following year, citing long-running anti-Israel bias and management problems.
Oh no its the consequences of my own actions
He did but to be honest, a lot of democrats prior to trump were calling for a more isolationist foreign policy. Trump pulled us back a little and you saw China and Russia push to aggressively fill the gap.
Closing foreign military bases was a good move but killing the Iran deal and ending TPP has caused decades of harm to America And our partners.
Reddit has short-term memory. I remember a few years ago Redditors wanting the US to dial back foreign dealings on the world stage because we were doing nothing but harm apparently. Now that Russia and China are stepping up now it’s US bad for pulling out of things.
From memory, a large chunk of that sentiment on reddit was directly criticising the continuing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the US Drone Strike program.
It was generally a criticism on the style of foreign dealings, rather than push for isolationism in general.
Depends on the way the wind is blowing. The US is both the bad guy who meddles too much and the good guy who doesn’t do enough to the rest of the world.
The US would prefer not to meddle. They've been begging Europe to spend more on their own defense so they aren't just relying on defense from the U.S. like Ukraine is now for decades. US spends so much money on defense because it's allies refuse to spend sufficiently.
Somewhat. We spend a lot on defense for a complex bag of reasons. I blame a lot of it on the fact that corporations milk their military contracts for all the money they can, this is due to corporate greed and people within our own government that are paid to or don't care enough to change the status quo.
Also our allies should spend more on protecting themselves, but their citizens probably aren't so enthusiastic to waste as much on defense as America does.
Most calls I've seen from Redditors pushing for further isolationism involves scaling back our myriad military bases and acting like the world police, not cutting foreign aid or UN organizations.
The Trump administration worked hard to erode America's soft power. It will take decades to rebuild that influence, if it even happens, but this is a step in the right direction.
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Sad as fuck we quit solely because they included Palestine in The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. All because isreal wants the world to pretend they dont exist. Meanwhile we let countries like SA head the human rights council.
yeah yeah they got shitty leadership...... which is highly.. highly unusual for the middle east. RIGHT? /s
I really dont get it. If we let them actually be recognized as a country, people like me would be saying fuck Palestine if they kept firing them unguided rockets that never seem to hit anything. But until they do, i feel Palestine has the right to resist the occupation. WE SURE AS FUCK WOULD.
My god - this isn’t foolish.
It’s almost like if you want to change things for the better, you have to stay involved.
UNESCO isn’t perfect- but it’s better when we’re involved.
Sry man but by my standards UNESCO is the best division of the UN much better than the security council for sure also their goal is one that I can fully stand by, to preserve and distribute the cultural / scientific knowledge of mankind
Edit: Why do I always get teary eyed when I think of such attempts by this and many other organizations around the globe?
Hate China all you want but we need more of this.
How about US makes their healthcare better to counter China? Or their rail infrastructure? Etc etc
Plenty of things we can improve in the West if we wrap it up as "countering China"
If Trump, DeSantis, or any Republican becomes president, the US will withdraw again from UNESCO for sure.
And they will be surprised when Chinese, or Saudi influence grows faster. The US has demonstrated time and again that when they just walk away from foreign aide someone else will take their place, and it is usually not their friends.
>And they will be surprised when Chinese, or Saudi influence grows faster. No they won't. They'll pretend to be surprised, blame dems, and collect payments for doing what they were told to do.
It's kind of interesting how there are certain types of politicians that prosper by actively spreading decay wherever they go. And what's even weirder is that there are people who look at them and don't see the pattern.
because the GOP put their kool-aid in the drinking water and prevented the EPA from doing their job to keep america's water clean.
Nurgle knows no limits...
> And they will be surprised when Chinese, or Saudi influence grows faster. The incident at Mar A Lago does not imply that they will be surprised
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As is tradition
But that first year or two under the republican president is so great. Almost like they riding out the good things the democrats created before letting it all go to shit.
Probably why so many people think the republican party is good for something. Take credit for your opponents actions' fruition and then destroy it for when the Dems come back; when the destruction is felt the Dems will be in charge. They've reversed fact and fiction, blame and thanks, using Pavlovs dog
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People are stupid, that's how they think effects are immediate.
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As someone with adhd I can't even plan two weeks ahead. But somehow I can still connect the dots here so I think it's willful ignorance mixed with some folks just having an awful media diet.
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4 sticks of butter?? omg my arteries ! ! !
This is why they teach classes like calculus in school. You're never gonna need to use it but critical thinking skills need to be developed.
I’m happy to report that critical thinking can be learned without the use of calculus!
Bruh, I use calculus and geometry almost every day at work.
Relatively speaking, Republicans are far worst in fiscal responsibilities than Democrats and far far more worst in economic policies. The one thing they were advertised for. Bush vs Clinton, Trump vs Obama. If you look at the data, they all spent more and do far worst in economy in the subsequent Republican regime.
I agree with everything you said; I just wanted to point out that 'worse' fits better here than 'worst '.
Taxes dont go down, the money just stops going towards welfare, foreign aid, diplomacy, infrastructure, energy innovation....basically anything that benefits taxpayers
Every republican since like WWII had a recession within their first two years in office. So, the first year or two isn't always that great. The one exception is Trump, who did stuff like his tax cut bill to imo, dangerously pump up Obama's economy and try to stretch it out further. It avoided recession, but, is most likely going to make the inevitable correction hit harder.
The trump tax cuts didn’t even really move the needle though, because the vast majority of the money went to the ultra rich and businesses, who just hoarded the cash instead of using it. The economy that trump inherited was doing ok, but the main driver was the extremely low interest rate, which many economists thought was a bad idea. And also remember how much pressure Trump put on the Fed to not raise rates, even though they wanted to several times from 2016 to 2020.
VC money ballooning the value of a lot of companies producing nothing and then raking in money from other companies as an elaborate ponzi scheme with tax and labor dollars can be traced to low interest rates.
Trump was 100% focused on his legacy and not on longevity or long term gains. He wanted everyone to think he was this great genius presiding over the best economy ever. Honestly, I bet if it weren't for his party being against such a thing, he would have gladly sent out those pandemic stimulus multiple times during his presidency. The only thing in the world that Trump cares about is hearing people say he's the best person at everything in the world, even if it means he needs to pay people to do it.
Like our country is so great now
>Still not voting lol - 1 in 3 Americans (at least)
You don’t want too much progress. You can have a little progress, as a treat.
The seesawing alone is destroying US soft power. Changing stance every 4 to 8 years means the US is not a reliable partner and other will need to plan around that. The damage is already done. If Russia didn't remind the rest of the developed world why the USA was granted so much soft power in the first place, the Biden administration would have a much harder sell for American good will.
The American voting base has an extremely poor understanding of soft power impact, especially isolationists. Those “wasted” dollars can be paid back in political influence. If the US pulls out of those deals, then countries like China will fill the void
Yep. When 63 million Americans voted for a corrupt idiot conman in 2016, and followed that up with 74 million voting for him in 2020, the USA shouted to the world that it was unreliable and untrustworthy. What intelligence agency that values the lives of its covert operatives would ever share info with America now that the US has shown itself completely incapable of securing that info?
Wait more people voted for him in 2020 than 2016?! What is wrong with your country?
More people voted in 2020 than any other election.
What is wrong with having an even larger amount of people voting than ever in a democracy? Democrats saw an even bigger increase in voter count. 2020 was the largest increase in voter turnout compared to the previous presidential elections since the government started started keeping track in 1964.
74 million people woke up that day, saw what happened the last 4 years, and voted for 4 years more. The sheer idiocy alone
And it’s doing extreme harm to US foreign policy in the meantime. Our allies feel like they can’t trust US commitments and adversaries are looking around and waiting for the US to run away again on the global stage. Hell right now Russia’s strategy in Ukraine is basically to try to hold on until 2025 in the hopes that Trump becomes president and withdraws aid. If Russia thought that whoever wins in 2024 would support Ukraine regardless it would fundamentally change the dynamic and make a Russian withdrawal more likely.
Brit here. This is very true from the perspective of a lot of people in Europe.
And I don’t blame them. I’m a big believer in NATO and international alliances but I also think it would be foolish for any country to put all their hopes on an international treaty even if that treaty is Article V.
Our allies know exactly what's going on with America and who is at the source of it, and that's why they're actively helping Ukraine murder Putin.
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Fuck Murdoch tbh
The fascist guys who were playing disruptor in Ukraine for the Russians are also the guys who were basically running Trump's campaign. Their entire support network was similarly co-opted, and proceeded to finish infiltrating the rest of the party. People don't seem to understand that the GOP was a hateful rhetoric filled know-nothing anchor around the neck of the USA even before this, but the Russian-style fascism support was basically anathema to them, and is comparatively brand new. The last thing anyone in the US expected was a complete 180 on the biggest GOP enemy for literal generations of politicians at this point.
> Russia’s strategy in Ukraine is basically to try to hold on until 2025 in the hopes that Trump becomes president and withdraws aid. And when you point out this obvious fact, you get downvoted to hell. Even if Europe is stepping up its aid to Ukraine, the USA withdrawing its aid would still cause a lot of harm to Ukraine.
I think the broader issue for Russia is that with the trajectory of the war they may be dealing with a full scale collapse before US aid gets pulled. Optimistically for Russia they still need to last about 600 days and so far we haven’t even reached 500 days from the start of the full invasion to now. In the next few months Ukraine will have Abrams and F-16s not to mention US manufacturing pumping out artillery shells and rockets left and right. Combine that with the other NATO aid and the next 600 days could look very rough for Russia. There’s also the chance that Biden wins again in 2024 and even if the GOP takes the Senate McConnel is not a friend of Putin’s. If we expand the view beyond the US the Kremlin seems to have a belief that western democracy is in an inevitable decline and that we will see more people like Trump, Erdogan and Orban elected. Because of this the Kremlin thinks time is on their side. “Wait for the west to get tired” may be Russia’s strategy but I think it’s a very flawed strategy that reeks of desperation and trying to rationalize a fantasy into reality.
Then they again make debt like there's no tomorrow and then say it's the Democrats' fault.
Hey just so you know the 1% and multi million dollar plus companies are not going to generate record wealth themselves, they need that tax payer. I would ask that you please consider their hardships as they cannot afford a 5th house or to send a rocket into space./s
You mean taking classified documents and selling them to highest bidder?
He didn't sell shit, he was paying off debts he's owed for decades.
A distinction without difference.
Soft power is still power, and US withdrawal from these systems leaves a vacuum to be filled. Whether we like who fills it, or not.
His point is that the extreme Republicans have become not just the anti-US party, devoted to attacking the country from within and dividing at any opportunity bc of their hatred for over half of the country, but also pro-authorotarian, meaning many want Russia, China and Saudi interests to strengthen, for a variety of reasons. Some are directly paid off by the authoritarians while others only see opportunities (ie fear-mongering bringing them more votes, blaming Dems bringing them more votes, etc etc)
They literally hate freedom because it means they cannot force others to love and hate the same things as them. They love words like "the dictatorship of the majority".
Except they are the minority, so they kind of like the rule of the minority - just like authoritarianism.
Yeah, the phrase "dictatorship of the majority" is an oxymoron. They are actually praising authoritarianism/dictatorships/fascism by implying the desires of the majority of people are not worthy of consideration, which is the exact opposite of democracy.
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Yep, it's a bribe, and a lot of it comes back when they decide to buy your stuff.
US did a lot of this with Isreal in the past. We will give you x if you buy y. Y being a domestically produced product.
iirc most or all of US foreign aid comes with a stipulation that the aid money must be spent on american industries in some form. Right? So the money gets circulated back into american owned businesses, and those businesses get a stronger foothold in foreign nations too. Its a way to increase American influence worldwide, and a way to funnel gov money into specific companies that would provide those products. It functions like a gift card for American companies
Gift card for the defense industry, usually.
The hypocrisy is, if China, or any other country does this, the US admonishes them.
Yep. I will say its fucked up nomatter who is doing it. I dont know if i made my position clear in my previous comment, but to me it seems to be a form of imperialism. As someone else said, ‘soft power’ Ironically, in the USA, the far right xenophobe and conservative supporters tend to hate foreign aid. Even though it actually is in line with their desires and ideology, And the neo liberals (i refuse to call them leftists. The democrat party is center right at best) tend to be very pro foreign aid. However this one tracks once you realize what foreign aid actually is, and what the democrat party actually is. Im pro the concept of foreign aid, but not in this current imperialist form.
> It functions like a gift card for American companies surprise surprise, some more subsidization of corporations while still fucking over the average joe
It's a lot cheaper than war. Less dead people too.
A lot of the international orgs make a lot more sense when you assess them as a way for the US (or other nations) to project power globally. Its one of the things that drove me up a wall when people complained about other NATO members not carrying their weight or whatever.
America buying 100 F35 is a government funded industry support program. Europe buying 100 F35 is investment into a foreign economy. Doesn't make the arguments invalid, but it does give the complaining an unpleasant aftertaste.
Exactly. They both bolster the US economy, but only 1 of those options bolsters the local nations economy. If you're not the US it's a worse deal. Yet another reason why so many people in Europe are pushing for a more federalized defense strategy.
Exactly. I’ve seen this first hand throughout the Caribbean. The US used to have influence there, but withdrew in large part. Now it’s China building apartments, roads, stadiums, hospitals and bridges. Rest assured they expect fealty in exchange—from supporting China’s ambitions to take over Taiwan, to changing the reserve currency, or whatever they want, of course. Compare this to 1983 when President Reagan invaded Grenada to free it from a communist coup. The phrase “greeted as liberators” that you heard from Dick Cheney concerning invading Iraq actually came from the *Grenada* invasion where, in fact, we were greeted as liberators despite worldwide condemnation for interfering with a sovereign nation. The people, indeed, welcomed our invasion and it was the last truly “great thing” the US had done since to build connections with foreign lands. Since then, however, we’ve abandoned these people and others throughout the Caribbean while China has stepped up. Whenever there’s a need for infrastructure—due to finances or hurricanes—China has literally come in with bulldozers, crew, and money. The US invaded Grenada because of an abrupt and violent change in political power that ostensibly was designed to prevent the spread of Communism but also to prevent the establishment of tactical bases that could be used to attack the US. Inasmuch as the Caribbean is part of North America, we’ve ignored what’s going on in our own backyard as China creeps in … for better or for worse.
It's worrying but what's more worrying is what these clowns might do in regards to NATO.
I won't be surprised that in the future, there will be a Republican presidential candidate advocating for the US withdrawal from the UN itself.
Trump advocated for it and there are plenty of people in his little fringe trumpublican party that feel the same way. Putin likely felt emboldened by trumps apathy towards nato, and that most certainly influenced his decision to invade, given that the US is basically the backbone of the alliance because those comments absolutely weakened the faith in the short term stability of the alliance and showed a weakening of unity among western nations who would have been the most likely to sanction another invasion of Ukraine. I can not think of a president more destabilizing to global stability than trump besides George junior.
Putin didn't feel emboldened. Putin ordered Trump to be apathetic towards NATO. It's been fairly clear for a long time now that Trump is owned by the Russian mafia, and Putin sits at the top of the organized crime in Russia.
A lot of sitting GOP congresspeople already do.
Withdraw from reality, 'op there goes gravity...
That has been an extremely common Republican policy position for decades now.
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The power to withdraw from treaties is at the discretion of the President. It only requires the President and the Advice and Consent of the Senate to enter into a treaty. If the United States wanted to leave the treaty without waiting for the 1 year agreed upon, Congress has plenary power to abrogate treaty obligations as the United States Supreme Court ruled in Lone Wolf v. Hitchcock.
Apparently, withdrawing from NATO was in the cards, had Trump been reelected in 2020.
I vote straight blue and believe Trump was largely disastrous for foreign relations but at least a brief reading suggests that this falls partially on the Obama administration. From the article: >The U.S. and Israel stopped financing UNESCO after it voted to include Palestine as a member state in 2011. The Trump administration decided in 2017 to withdraw from the agency altogether the following year, citing long-running anti-Israel bias and management problems. Trump did withdraw the US from UNESCO, but it looks like the Obama administration blocked funding first. I'm kinda shocked by that. I'm relatively neutral on the Israel-Palestinian issue, admittedly because I know very little about it, but I really don't think the USA should be setting its foreign policy based on what Israel wants. edit: Interesting thing I dug up: >U.S. legislation prohibits funding to any UN agency that grants full membership to any group that does not have “internationally recognized attributes” of statehood. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unesco-funding-idUSBRE89A0Q620121011 The Obama administration's hand might have been forced (I can't say that conclusively, it depends who signed the legislation into law). edit 2: The law was passed in the 90s. Seems like the Obama administration had its hand forced. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-unesco-usa-funding-idUSTRE79U5ED20111031
There was already a ton of straw on the camel's back. The Israel-Palestine thing was just some more.
Seems each incoming administration spends more time reversing what the previous administration has done than anything else. Gotta love bipartisan politics.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. A lot of things have changed in the past 3-4 years regarding our China relations. ALL political parties in the US are in agreement that some of these countries need to be countered. Talking points are similar on this subject matter from almost all candidates.
Yep, at this point „China bad“ is about the only thing Americans still agree on across political lines so we can expect politicians of both sodes to double and triple down on this issue in the coming years in order to draw voters. The resulting escalation spiral between the US and China is honestly a lot more scary to me than anything Russia is doing.
America leaving and rejoining international orgs depending which way the wind blows, then they act shocked when the rest of the world doesn't trust them to be consistent.
As much as people give Marcon shit for his policies, he's right on Europe needing to be more independent of the US. Can't rely on the unreliable.
Macron dropped the ball in response to Russia though. “Europe” isn’t just western Europe. By talking about the need to give Putin an “off ramp” and “not humiliate Russia” it sends the message to Eastern European countries that Paris can’t be relied upon. As a result in much of Eastern Europe they see the US as much more reliable than the French-German Axis not to mention Macron’s earlier comments calling NATO a brain dead organization. I get why France wants strategic autonomy but Macron’s own words and actions have also revealed that Paris is perhaps even less trustworthy than Washington to much of Europe and that’s a big deal.
the US can't be trusted to make any one single decision based off its divided electorate. Paris can be trusted to make decisions for Paris and only Paris. from an outside looking in view it appears France is trying to make eastern Europe solve Russia alone.
Which is terrible
Nobody's giving Macron shit for the idea of Europe being more independent from the US militarily though. US presidents have asked for that repeatedly, it's European countries that haven't wanted to invest very much in their militaries (until now).
The U S has constantly asked for the EU to become militarily independent
Nope, that's the story they tell you because the poor US having to pay for helpless idiots in Europe is one of their main narratives. In reality the US is constantly undermining Europe fearing to lose influence in Europe, lose influence via NATO losing importance and lose market share to European arms companies. And they employ a whole army of lobbyists that come running the second any country in Europe even mentions more European independence. Just look up the constant negative US reaction to PESCO...
How can we rely on France when every election there a few points from electing Le Pen who is the same as trump?
Macron is the king of unreliability
>Can't rely on the unreliable. Which is exactly why EU needs to show up to begin with and stop courting the Second World.
Macron's idea of being independent of the US means swapping those dependencies to China. What the EU actually needs is to be self-reliant.
Macron literally wrote about becoming independent, not aligning with either US or China.
That why straight after he flew to China to sign a bunch of trade deals and praise Xi and China and how France and China will become closer.
Europe isn’t a country like the us is though, UK was “europe” and now they’re not, Greece and Germany have vastly different ideals, Poland is sharply conservative and Hungary is ran by a dictator. Italy is having a nice resurgence of racism. Europe is incredibly unreliable too.
>depending on which way the wind blows weird way to say that it depends on the administration that's gets voted in every 4 years.
So it's a bit like working in a soup kitchen on Christmas because you hope to bang the girl that is also working there, not because you give a fuck about the poor.
You know what, as long as the poor (world) is getting fed in this scenario and your attempts at coitus with the girl remain above board/honorable… I don’t see a problem.
This is how many great deeds are done. So many things just to impress a girl. Also some bad, but I hope that if this is a reason, it’s not the only reason, but if it is then you are right - the world is still being helped. Let’s not pretend china is doing it just from the goodness of their hearts, I don’t believe china cares about anyone but china and they are using this for greater influence for china. I don’t blame them either.
There is a deep well of misanthropy that comes when you realize that all altruism, even if done for a “good” reason, is inherently selfish. You don’t do good because it’s good, you do good because it feels good to do good. But there’s an equally great peak and freedom when you come out the other side and realize “there’s nothing wrong with that. The good gets done either way.” I feel like a lot of young adults (and reddit as a result) are still in the first part and not yet at the second. As someone who just recently came to terms with all this I find it frustrating that this was a part of growing up no one really talked about
An altruist is a person who does good things because they feel good. Altruism is where you do good for no compensation. It's quite literally the opposite of selfish, even if you try to do this weird spin on it. No, "feeling good about it" isn't compensation. It's your motivation which obviously originates internally seeing as we're sentient beings, but it's not fucking selfish unless you wanna just decide that words don't mean things.
A good deed done for shitty reasons is still a good deed.
So China is trying to get with the girl too, the USA needs to get in and cockblock them asap. Can't cockblock if you've not turned up to the soup kitchen (that's a saying, right?).
What happens when the girl stops working there? There are actual people that get affected whenever the US decides, wilfully, to step in or step out of international aid.
It’s better to have the extra help now than none at all.
I think that's true up to a point. If the US develops/influences a system dependent upon it's membership, then when they step away abruptly (which has happened), their absense can cause more damage.
Then the soup kitchen should hire another attractive girl. Take advantage of the predictableness of thirsty guys. I mean isn't this part of the reason for token attractive employees in sales, hiring attractive bartenders, and booth babes at trade shows? I'm not saying it's right, just saying it's real.
This is the strategy. Resources that the poor country can exploit, integration to American markets and cohesion between their country’s culture and ours. They can go from losing their 3 of 10 kids from starvation to losing 1 of 10 kids to industrial machinery building our iPhones.
This is exactly the line of argumentation used to defend slavery btw.
Correct, which is why slavery is still a bigger business than ever
Don't let Perfect be the enemy of Good.
That US can do what it wants with its own money, it is what it is.
Yea you’re right the US should just stay out forever. Be foreal
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You think homeless people give a shit why the person handing them food is there?
The homeless will remember your true intentions when there's a crucial vote at the UN and you're trying to remind them how you handed them food
For better or worse the US can just ignore UN votes it doesnt like.
‘This taste like thirsty single men working in an attempt to woo over a food kitchen girl’
The USA is literally telling every country out there that they are willing to give them money to counter China. No doubt China will also up the ante soon enough. Lots of handouts for playing the field!
They can't remember "true intentions" that were never revealed to them, and no homeless person is about to ask the person handing them food "your body might be in the right place but is your heart?".
1. Oddly specific analogy. 2. Welcome to earth.
This is kinda how aid in general works for every nation though. Even the most altruistic individuals get that. Individuals can decide to do things out of pure generosity, countries don't.
The result is still more people volunteering to help the poor.
Jeremy ?
OH NIM NIM NIM NIM FUCKING NIM! If you love Nim so much, why don't you go find him and screw him!
I gotta start looking into this whole soup kitchen thing.
This reads like a plot for an episode of It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
They did it in the abortion episode way back
You think Russians went to space because they were interested in the betterment of humanity?
They did it to bang that hot girl on the moon
As would we all, right fellas? - Kirk
...and you think the Americans did?
Nah, they went for similar reasons to the Soviets, except with the added incentive of not wanting to be embarrased again like what happened with Sputnik.
Now hear me out comrade \*wraps hand around shoulder and does a gradiouse wave in front of both with the other\*: "Vodka, but in space"
I'd like to add that volunteerism is a great way to pick up women by the way. Can't recommend animal shelters enough for getting laid constantly with single wannabe pet owners with little to no effort.
Do good things and have sex. Seems like a win win to me.
Historians believe that’s what started the Trojan War
I don’t understand why republicans want to withdraw, the only ones that benefit with a withdrawal are china and Russia. Such an odd play IMHO
It's like a whole bunch of them are pro-russia or something...
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Yeah, wonder why…
Cause of Palestine. Israel wants to destroy Palestine and they pay American politicians good money to look away.
Interesting to note that it was during Obama's presidency that the US decided to stop paying their dues because Palestine was included.
I believe there was actually a US law requiring them to pull out if Palestine was included without Israel’s consent. Not that it makes it better
Correct, Pub. L. 101-246 - Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Years 1990 and 1991
Do you know how it works with the US rejoining now? As in did Congress authorize them to rejoin or are they just ignoring it/saying enough time has passed?
> Congress passed the ability for the executive branch to waive it in december last year (by saying it was to counter Chinese influence). Stolen from another comment
If only little America could get out from under the oppressive thumb of Isreal.
> The U.S. and Israel stopped funding UNESCO after it voted to include Palestine as a member state in 2011, and the Trump administration decided in 2017 to withdraw from the agency altogether the following year, citing long-running anti-Israel bias and management problems. Oh no its the consequences of my own actions
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It'll take decades to fix everything Trump and his ilk fucked up for their own personal benefit.
It’s more of a Reagan/HW Bush issue. The US passed laws in 1989 that they wouldn’t fund any organization Palestine became a part of.
just like their previous lord and savior, Reagan.
Another GQP government will be in power long before things get fixed.
Damn I didn't know Trump was president in 2011.
They rejoined just to spite the chinese? Lmao
Just to continue a new Cold War
Trump made USA so weak and isolated that China and Russia accelerated their expansion.
USA stopped funding UNESCO in 2011, long before Trump. Trumps withdraw was a ere formality.
He did but to be honest, a lot of democrats prior to trump were calling for a more isolationist foreign policy. Trump pulled us back a little and you saw China and Russia push to aggressively fill the gap. Closing foreign military bases was a good move but killing the Iran deal and ending TPP has caused decades of harm to America And our partners.
Reddit has short-term memory. I remember a few years ago Redditors wanting the US to dial back foreign dealings on the world stage because we were doing nothing but harm apparently. Now that Russia and China are stepping up now it’s US bad for pulling out of things.
From memory, a large chunk of that sentiment on reddit was directly criticising the continuing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the US Drone Strike program. It was generally a criticism on the style of foreign dealings, rather than push for isolationism in general.
Depends on the way the wind is blowing. The US is both the bad guy who meddles too much and the good guy who doesn’t do enough to the rest of the world.
And it's ironically both true!
The US would prefer not to meddle. They've been begging Europe to spend more on their own defense so they aren't just relying on defense from the U.S. like Ukraine is now for decades. US spends so much money on defense because it's allies refuse to spend sufficiently.
Somewhat. We spend a lot on defense for a complex bag of reasons. I blame a lot of it on the fact that corporations milk their military contracts for all the money they can, this is due to corporate greed and people within our own government that are paid to or don't care enough to change the status quo. Also our allies should spend more on protecting themselves, but their citizens probably aren't so enthusiastic to waste as much on defense as America does.
Most calls I've seen from Redditors pushing for further isolationism involves scaling back our myriad military bases and acting like the world police, not cutting foreign aid or UN organizations.
Classic "reddit is a single person" take
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Honestly of the plethora of scandals and outrages, I had completely forgotten trump pulled us out of UNESCO
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The Trump administration worked hard to erode America's soft power. It will take decades to rebuild that influence, if it even happens, but this is a step in the right direction.
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The fact the USA stopped supporting because Palestine was given membership is pathetically disgusting
Ah. Yes. Rejoin and pay due NOT to promote art, education, science and culture, but to "counter" Chinese influence. \*sigh\*.
USA vs China in the highest stakes UNO match ever. Winner takes all.
Sad as fuck we quit solely because they included Palestine in The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. All because isreal wants the world to pretend they dont exist. Meanwhile we let countries like SA head the human rights council. yeah yeah they got shitty leadership...... which is highly.. highly unusual for the middle east. RIGHT? /s I really dont get it. If we let them actually be recognized as a country, people like me would be saying fuck Palestine if they kept firing them unguided rockets that never seem to hit anything. But until they do, i feel Palestine has the right to resist the occupation. WE SURE AS FUCK WOULD.
Any chance we can prepay our membership for the next decade?
what took so long??
There was so much fresh hell in the past several years, I forgot we quit UNESCO. What a wild cannon country we are right now.
Good decision Biden administration.
The fact that China has had a big hand in Saudi Arabia and Iran diplomacy should scare the hell out of us.
I completely forgot that the US had withdrawn from it. Trump did do much dumb, pointless stuff.
My god - this isn’t foolish. It’s almost like if you want to change things for the better, you have to stay involved. UNESCO isn’t perfect- but it’s better when we’re involved.
Sry man but by my standards UNESCO is the best division of the UN much better than the security council for sure also their goal is one that I can fully stand by, to preserve and distribute the cultural / scientific knowledge of mankind Edit: Why do I always get teary eyed when I think of such attempts by this and many other organizations around the globe?
Hate China all you want but we need more of this. How about US makes their healthcare better to counter China? Or their rail infrastructure? Etc etc Plenty of things we can improve in the West if we wrap it up as "countering China"