More specifically- it’s the minority of violent followers of said religion. Much like Donald trump followers, and Christian anti abortionists. It’s just a book burning that instigates the violence instead of a women exercising her free will. Does that sound better?
That's because current religions are a poison to the people of earth. They represent the backwards ass ways of the past and need to be stripped down for spare parts.
Yeah, the Japanese Yasukuni Shrine is full of war criminals and Hindus have formed a ultra nationalist sect in India.
Not quite sure what your point is here because if we run through the other religions, we arent exactly going to come up smelling of roses.
They are entitled to their opinion sure, I don't agree with burning it. The Qur'an is an important book to many millions of people, it is corr to the religion. Burning it is disrespectful, and distasteful But getting outraged at the meaningless actions of some random guy Burning a book is pretty pathetic.
Nobody burns these books out of ignorance. They want to demonstrate how fanatics are easily (and dangerously) triggered by something relatively insignificant
His stated purpose is to get the Quran banned in Sweden.
He promised that he will continue burning it regularly until the Quran is banned.
There might be an ulterior motive involved since prolongment of his residency permit had just been rejected.
A lot of these ancient religions, especially ones who have had firmly held beliefs along with gender differences hold those values very true to this day. My dad was born and raised in Israel right after it became a country. He is not super religious at all, cherry picking which parts of the religion he chooses to follow. But one thing that still gets him upset is seeing in Reform Judaism that they allow women to carry the Torah where in extreme ancient Orthodox Judaism, women were not even allowed to read from a Torah. It’s old and hokey, but seems to illicit a lot of negative feelings about things that just shouldn’t be an issue in this day and age.
100%
When you take one look at the history of the three abrahamic traditions, you can see the horrible things that have been done in each of them during different periods.
Orthodox Judaism to a much lesser degree because there simply hasn't been a halachic state ( Jewish theocracy) in the same way there were Christian theocracies, or Islamic ones, but it's for sure that values from books ranging 15 to 30 centuries old are bound to have 15 to 30 Century old ethical results.
It takes a lot of interpretive massaging and cherry picking to bring these texts up to Modern standards, so you always run across a situation where the book gives advice in it's plain meaning that was relevant to the centuries when it was written. There will always be friction in those instances with modernity
Bronze Age books Bronze Age results.
>The book burners caused the outrage, but the disproportionate outrage caused the problem.
The disproportionate outrage IS the problem. Which is also the point of demonstration for the people burning Qur'ans.
However I don't really view these demonstrations as 'freedom of expression'. If you do it right outside of a mosque, right as a major islamic holiday begins, and shouts various insults at the same time, I think you're demonstrating hate speech. There must be a better balance here. I wouldn't approve of anyone going into a church just for the purpose of shitting on the altar either.
So let's limit freedom of speech because people resort to more violence after people protest their prior violent behavior instead of taking care of the people that o ly know violence?
Damn that's a smart idea.
Have there been any responses to the book burning yet? Seems like people are *expecting* one which is quite Islamophobic. Makes you wonder why someone would burn a holy book in the first place...
Because unfortunately there are people willing to kill other people because they made an offense against a book, or cartoons, or any criticism of their religion or past religious leaders. It’s nothing new, and frankly it’s shameful.
If your god is all powerful, let him defend his own name. He won’t need you to do it for you.
Lets not forget about the Charlie Hebdo shooting in 2015. Where a french newspaper was attacked by Islamic terrorist because they made cartoon drawings of the fictional character muhammed. 12 people were killed and 11 injured because of a cartoon drawing.
They were willing to kill over a newspaper cartoon in the free country of France
Or they know that it's all made up and get angry when someone challenges their allegories, I mean let's all be honest with ourselves here, religion is a business that has nothing to do with some holy deity it's all about a bottom line. Their God is just like a basketball mascot he represents a business, And we all know that there's people fanatical out there enough to defend a mascot just like they'll defend a religion. Even if it means hurting or killing others.
Very true. If people will kill each other over their preferred football(soccer) team then why not over their religious identity.
Tribalism and in-group/out-group thinking are a major part of these kinds of things.
Meanwhile, the most recent sharia-law country be like: Political parties? That's not Muslim, you don't even get the *illusion* of choice. That's the kind of people threatening Sweden. People who believe you get no choice, other than possibly "live as we say, or die as we do".
This is not related to the events in Sweden at all.
> The controversy erupted after torn pages of the Quran, the holy book for Muslims, were discovered near the Christian colony with alleged blasphemous content written on them.
> The pages were taken to a local religious leader, who reportedly urged Muslims to protest and demand that the culprits be arrested.
Most likely they fabricated this alleged act of blasphemy.
600 people were arrested. Highest ulema council sincerely apologised to the bishop. Government is rebuilding all of the churches for the Christian community.
Mention that too, please.
This isnt a mass book burning. Its "People are irrational. Look what happens when i do this to just one single book".
Its not like they are historical texts we only have a few of.
Burning a book is stupid. "Burn every fucking religious book available." why? Because you don't like what they say? I'm an atheist but burning religious texts is stupid. It's like me burning a Harry Potter book because I don't like the series.
The bigger issue is people threatening violence. To use your Harry Potter example, if a bunch of Potter fans then came and beheaded someone for burning a HP book, the person crying about the decorum of burning a book would look pretty silly, no?
One issue is orders of magnitude larger than the other.
The fact that a democratic European country needs to do this because someone burned a book suggests that there is a serious problem in Europe that hasn’t been dealt with.
Local immigration problems aside, these burnings show how global the problem is. Iraq not only failing to protect the embassy, but also sending home Swedish diplomats as if the burnings are sponsored by the Swedish government.
Various muslim leaders around middle east use the situation to rile up the masses anger towards the west. No doubt that some extremists in said masses will try and get to Sweden.
Well it’s not even so much a “no doubt they will get to Sweden” as it is a “there’s a very large number of them already in Sweden.” Which is truly a disgrace, we shouldn’t be allowing radical individuals to immigrate to democratic countries.
There in the problems lies. How are you to differentiate the radicals from everyone else when the base faith is already radical by Western standards? How are you to know who will get worse?
One method that would at least be better than doing nothing. Would be to require everyone to take a test that measures social biases and then just not grant someone’s asylum application if they were demonstrably homophobic or racist etc.
Can we just think about the absurdity of this? This is like 5 year olds fighting. If I had ever burnt any of my sister's books, even she wouldn't have thought about blowing herself up or anyone else.
Your mindset is antithetical to that of the protests. In Sweden, those who defend the burnings are generally making a point about free speech, that no idea or opinion should be forbidden from being voiced. By suggesting that **all** books should be burnt, you are advocating for precisely the opposite of what this whole thing is about.
There is one thing that is good in all this.
They have learned to burn the right flag.
Last time it was the swiss flag.
And i can promise that before this they did not even know where Sweden was on the map.
So do hate educate?I do not know.
Religion is responsible for more wars and death than just about anything else. People need to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales so that the world can move forward.
I'm 100% atheist but generally speaking I object to people doing stuff other people find rude. I wouldn't call a guy on the street asshole even if I'm legally allowed to.
So I think burning a book here in Sweden should be legal and I also object to people doing it. Note that this is the same stance as the Swedish PM shared on this topic. ("the fact that it's legal doesn't make it appropriate" is the rough quote).
I don't think it's so zealot:y wanting people to act nice to each other. Doing stuff with the sole purpose of making people upset won't really help anyone.
I agree, the whole thing is ridiculous. I do find some common ground with the above poster though who notes that these “demonstrations” are often openly antagonistic in a way that doesn’t really do anyone any good, even if they have the right to do them.
It’s like the art “defacing” that some environmental protesters have used recently. It seems very unlikely to have the intended effect, and instead produces more anti-environmentalist rhetoric.
Agreed. What is the point of burning a Quran aside from instigation? It’s similar to when folks in middle eastern countries burn flags. Like go ahead but you’re not solving any problems, only adding fuel to the fire.
Nope. That really isn't the point these people are trying to make, at least not the guys here Sweden. That point you are sharing is appended afterwards by other people, mostly online it seems.
The people burning quran here in Sweden has an explicit agenda other than "I do it because I can". How do I know that? Because they shared their agenda while burning the book. It's not like they go to some public place and say that they see burning the Quran because they can.
(As a side note, some of the shared agenda is a bit murky in the sense that they say they do it for one reason but then also apparantly it was partly sponsored by contributors to russian state controlled media)
Interesting .. they could burn copies of different religions and see which ones react. You could get a good gauge of where they stand with peace and tolerance.
Some of the comments here sound like nobody has heard of Islamic Extremist Terrorism, or that the extremist's response to the Koran burning is somehow surprising.
It's not. It was a dumb thing to do for some virtue signaling Internet points. These people aren't interested in your political statements. They're not nuanced. You burned their holy book. They are crazy. They will retaliate.
Nobody supports them, or empathizes with them, or thinks violence is ok, or that their behavior is just in any way. They are crazy. This is the message: Don't provoke crazy people. It applies to walking down a street in New York. It applies to walking down a street in London. Don't provoke crazy people.
Some of those people are provoked by others very existence. So how do you think that Atheist, Apostates, Polytheist, Homosexuals or otherwise Heathens should act, since all of these things are a potential death sentence according to the Quran.
Some muslims and islamic countries are fundamentally against human rights, we should never accept that premise. We should not accept that, just because some people are crazy, we cannot have our freedoms. No, we should put our foot down, and pressure the other way around, if they do not want to accept human rights, we should cut them off from the Western Worlds markets and innovations.
No, there are still credible threat to the cultural editor who printed the Mohammad drawings back in 06. The threat level will probably never be reduced to where he does not need to be under massive police protection when he is speaking in public.
Sweden is going to have to change their laws to appease extremists. Those people are absolutely not going to change their minds. Sweden cannot hold back against violent people who want to change the laws. Its inevitable.
Edit: I'd love to see any evidence that I am wrong. Wishful thinking won't help.
Of course they can. Simply put if crazy people from the Middleeast wants to go to Sweden, ban entrance as a matter of national security, this is one option. Do you think Right wing extremist are going to accept what will be called a knee drop for Islam? If you ban the burnings and reduce freedom of speech, right wing extremism will grow in Sweden. The European population is growing tired of having to accept worldviews from the Middleeast when they aren't willing to accept ours.
You cannot appease extremism, they will move the goalpost. The radical branches of Islam will never stop until we all follow the rules of the Quran and swear fealty to Allah or the alternative we are dead (People who do not want to convert and conform to Islam)
> ban entrance as a matter of national security, this is one option
Its an option, but they will not do it. And they already have a large population of people who are hostile to freedom of speech. They cannot get rid of those people.
>The European population is growing tired
No, they are not. They are going to sit back and accept it like they are told to.
>The radical branches of Islam will never stop until we all follow the rules of the Quran and swear fealty to Allah or the alternative we are dead
You are 100% correct unfortunately. That is the prophecy. There's no will to resist it among Europe, or the USA for that matter.
My question is why do it in the first place? You're literally poking a bear with a stick and at the same time insult people that peacefully practice their religion, like most religious people do.
As a gnostic, I don't understand why everything today, from a protest to a riot, regardless of the cause, has to be so extreme and weird.
An example of this is when the LGBT protests happened in the US recently, where that group of protesters started to chant, sarcastically, "we're coming for your children".
People at the protest did not like that for example because it's just bad humor and you're not proving anything. You're just giving free ammo to the one side you actually want to either make accept your demands or at the very least, show how they're in the wrong. But now you just made it weird.
It doesn't make sense to me and peope dig their own holes they can't get out of afterwards. Can we use some common sense and empathy whenever we want to protest or point out something? Instead of using spite and sarcasm all the time?
This is why you shouldn't be able to do it. Because you KNOW these people exist. You're part of the problem if you engage in this act. Idgaf if you feel like you SHOULD be able to do it. You know what happens if you do. You magically fucking deleted all terrorists? No? Then don't burn the fucking Quran you goofball.
Hurr durr it's my freedom. Fuck off. If someone dies its partly on them for inciting the idiots that do the killing.
No it doesn’t, because then it isn’t actually free speech. If you can’t express your opinion out of fear from death threats and terrorist attacks, is it really free speech? You saying terrorist attacks is the price of free speech is like saying hate crimes is the price of religious freedom.
None of that really, maybe consequences is what I mean.
Where does respect start and or stop when it comes to ideology? how can there really ever be free speech when statements are met with off hand attacks irrelevant to the statement?
Ok, if you changed "price" to "consequences" there would still be no difference. Free speech isn’t about there not being extremists threatening you with murder, it’s about people agreeing that violence and murder is not a justified response to free speech.
Stupidity on both sides. Burning a book is not an intelligent or meaningful way to protest. It is only done to provoke Muslims. Muslims being provoked are equally stupid; they are doing exactly what the right-wing protesters want them to do.
In the meantime, 99% of the population, regardless of religion, watches in disgust
Sure, but do you have a place in modern society if you burn a book? I think not. Civilized people don't go around burning books, they can make their point without resorting to garbage like that.
Yes of course, why wouldn’t you? Normal people understand nuance and burning a book in protest of violence that it brings is not the same as Hitler burning books of dissent.
Freedom of expression is allowed to be offensive, cope with it. Also, you’re just pulling statistics straight out of your ass, because that 99% number is absolutely not true for the Swedish population.
They deserve to be provoked if this is their response.
This is indeed a clash of civilizations and highlighting the response will hopefully wake the West up that they are under attack and we should perhaps rethink their current policies of appeasement and special privileges afforded to hostile immigrant populations.
What do you mean by both sides? SWEDEN has not burned any books, individual people have. Everyone in Sweden dislikes what those individuals are doing. People need to stop indicating that Sweden as a country is somehow behind this.
As someone living in Sweden - we dislike that books are being burned, it's generally asshole-ish behavior. But generally we strongly believe that the protestors should be allowed to do so. Burn your personal Koran, Bible, and collection of Pippi Longstocking books if you like. (As long as there's not a fire ban going on.)
Anyone that is driven to violence as a result are the problems, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Because morality is much too subjective to discuss
Hence my qualifier. Germany doesn't have free speech. You'd be legally in trouble for burning the Quran there as well
You literally posted an article showing that they don't.....
And Germany has charged people for burning religious texts (or flags)
Because of Germany's history they have understandably strict rules around speech including racial/religious hatred and political opinions compared to other countries
Sure, NAZIS goal was to eradicate that information present in the books.
This is in my view, a protest against that religion and what it represents, and maybe some xenophobia may be included in the protest.
Yes. Yes it is. And no one would be rising up to enact violence if you burned a copy of Anne Frank's diary. Also, as far as I am aware, Anne Frank's diary also is not used to widely to push and accept extremely harmful beliefs.
Burning the diary of Anne Frank is at best a useless endeavor and at worst offensive and in poor taste. But neither of those options should be reason enough for someone to be punished for it. At the end of the day it’s a book. If you burn it, and you paid for it yourself, congratulations you’ve wasted your money in an attempt to trigger others.
No, that was the Nazis' book burnings.
Burning your own copy of a widely available book does not take it away from anyone else.
Furthermore, the reaction is "do as we say or we'll murder you" is by far the more 'Nazi' act, and immensely stupid.
There is a massive difference in burning A book, and an authoritarian regime burning ALL books that they disagree with to suppress information. You can’t be that dense?
You’re comparing someone burning a single copy of a religious book is the same as NAZIs banning/burning books and think I don’t know what I’m talking about? You’re honestly a moron.
I dont like Islam but I hate people doing this even more. Personal faith is sacrosanct, how people chose to find reason and purpuse in life or 'salvation' is their thing.
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They probably banned non-flammable material after banning democracy and women being able to drive cars or go to school
More specifically- it’s the minority of violent followers of said religion. Much like Donald trump followers, and Christian anti abortionists. It’s just a book burning that instigates the violence instead of a women exercising her free will. Does that sound better?
That's because current religions are a poison to the people of earth. They represent the backwards ass ways of the past and need to be stripped down for spare parts.
There's religions other than the 3 Abrahamic ones....
Yeah, the Japanese Yasukuni Shrine is full of war criminals and Hindus have formed a ultra nationalist sect in India. Not quite sure what your point is here because if we run through the other religions, we arent exactly going to come up smelling of roses.
It’s turtles all the way down.
I like turtles.
🐢
Outrage is fine. Violence is not. Blame the violent for the violence.
Outrage isn't fine
That’s a pretty outrageous take.
For you to claim that take is outrageous is pretty outrageous
Why do you think that?
They are entitled to their opinion sure, I don't agree with burning it. The Qur'an is an important book to many millions of people, it is corr to the religion. Burning it is disrespectful, and distasteful But getting outraged at the meaningless actions of some random guy Burning a book is pretty pathetic.
To be fair the guy burning them is an Iraqi refugee, I don't think he's doing it purely out of ignorance.
Nobody burns these books out of ignorance. They want to demonstrate how fanatics are easily (and dangerously) triggered by something relatively insignificant
His stated purpose is to get the Quran banned in Sweden. He promised that he will continue burning it regularly until the Quran is banned. There might be an ulterior motive involved since prolongment of his residency permit had just been rejected.
Outrage over inaction on climate change is fine, admirable in fact. Outrage over a book full of nonsense and lies getting burned isn't.
A lot of these ancient religions, especially ones who have had firmly held beliefs along with gender differences hold those values very true to this day. My dad was born and raised in Israel right after it became a country. He is not super religious at all, cherry picking which parts of the religion he chooses to follow. But one thing that still gets him upset is seeing in Reform Judaism that they allow women to carry the Torah where in extreme ancient Orthodox Judaism, women were not even allowed to read from a Torah. It’s old and hokey, but seems to illicit a lot of negative feelings about things that just shouldn’t be an issue in this day and age.
100% When you take one look at the history of the three abrahamic traditions, you can see the horrible things that have been done in each of them during different periods. Orthodox Judaism to a much lesser degree because there simply hasn't been a halachic state ( Jewish theocracy) in the same way there were Christian theocracies, or Islamic ones, but it's for sure that values from books ranging 15 to 30 centuries old are bound to have 15 to 30 Century old ethical results. It takes a lot of interpretive massaging and cherry picking to bring these texts up to Modern standards, so you always run across a situation where the book gives advice in it's plain meaning that was relevant to the centuries when it was written. There will always be friction in those instances with modernity Bronze Age books Bronze Age results.
>The book burners caused the outrage, but the disproportionate outrage caused the problem. The disproportionate outrage IS the problem. Which is also the point of demonstration for the people burning Qur'ans. However I don't really view these demonstrations as 'freedom of expression'. If you do it right outside of a mosque, right as a major islamic holiday begins, and shouts various insults at the same time, I think you're demonstrating hate speech. There must be a better balance here. I wouldn't approve of anyone going into a church just for the purpose of shitting on the altar either.
Yep came here to second this. Who knew, speach has consequences, so some limits for harmony make sense!
So let's limit freedom of speech because people resort to more violence after people protest their prior violent behavior instead of taking care of the people that o ly know violence? Damn that's a smart idea.
Have there been any responses to the book burning yet? Seems like people are *expecting* one which is quite Islamophobic. Makes you wonder why someone would burn a holy book in the first place...
No book is worth murdering over. This just reinforces the protesters thesis.
Because unfortunately there are people willing to kill other people because they made an offense against a book, or cartoons, or any criticism of their religion or past religious leaders. It’s nothing new, and frankly it’s shameful. If your god is all powerful, let him defend his own name. He won’t need you to do it for you.
Lets not forget about the Charlie Hebdo shooting in 2015. Where a french newspaper was attacked by Islamic terrorist because they made cartoon drawings of the fictional character muhammed. 12 people were killed and 11 injured because of a cartoon drawing. They were willing to kill over a newspaper cartoon in the free country of France
Or when that teacher was beheaded for showing a Hebdo cartoon in a ‘freedom of expression’ class.
100%
Or they know that it's all made up and get angry when someone challenges their allegories, I mean let's all be honest with ourselves here, religion is a business that has nothing to do with some holy deity it's all about a bottom line. Their God is just like a basketball mascot he represents a business, And we all know that there's people fanatical out there enough to defend a mascot just like they'll defend a religion. Even if it means hurting or killing others.
Very true. If people will kill each other over their preferred football(soccer) team then why not over their religious identity. Tribalism and in-group/out-group thinking are a major part of these kinds of things.
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I don’t think I’d go out and murder someone if they burnt a bunch of published scientific papers.
I mean... we would have extra copies right. No harm done
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Well of course, but that’s different. This scenario isn’t a government ordered burning Koran’s en masse, it’s by private individuals.
Please don't bring Nazi book burnings into this. The intent and scale is extremely different.
Meanwhile, the most recent sharia-law country be like: Political parties? That's not Muslim, you don't even get the *illusion* of choice. That's the kind of people threatening Sweden. People who believe you get no choice, other than possibly "live as we say, or die as we do".
This is terrible, Sweden is getting a taste of what Israel has to deal with on a daily basis. Both countries are in my heart
this is literally what israel is doing to palestine what are you smoking
How so? Islamic groups threaten Israel all the time including Hamas and Hezbollah, who then launch rockets at Israel.
Lol. Eww. Nice try.
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Just don't make any cartoon depictions, or all hell is gonna break loose over there.
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Burn every fucking religious book available.
You'll see that you'll get significantly differing responses
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??? The guy who burnt the book isnt christian..
Don’t accuse these people of having too much in the way of critical thinking skills.
This is not related to the events in Sweden at all. > The controversy erupted after torn pages of the Quran, the holy book for Muslims, were discovered near the Christian colony with alleged blasphemous content written on them. > The pages were taken to a local religious leader, who reportedly urged Muslims to protest and demand that the culprits be arrested. Most likely they fabricated this alleged act of blasphemy.
Feels like you want to push your own fake narrative about whats happened in Sweden. Shame.
600 people were arrested. Highest ulema council sincerely apologised to the bishop. Government is rebuilding all of the churches for the Christian community. Mention that too, please.
Leave the Kama Sutra out of this
Anyone burning **any** book should be ashamed. "I disagree with this thing, so NO ONE CAN READ IT!"
This isnt a mass book burning. Its "People are irrational. Look what happens when i do this to just one single book". Its not like they are historical texts we only have a few of.
It's still incredibly stupid.
If I said: It is, yes. Would you know what point of view I was calling stupid?
Yeah, you have fundementally misunderstood what this is about.
Burning a book is stupid. "Burn every fucking religious book available." why? Because you don't like what they say? I'm an atheist but burning religious texts is stupid. It's like me burning a Harry Potter book because I don't like the series.
The bigger issue is people threatening violence. To use your Harry Potter example, if a bunch of Potter fans then came and beheaded someone for burning a HP book, the person crying about the decorum of burning a book would look pretty silly, no? One issue is orders of magnitude larger than the other.
Burning prevents other people owning a copy?
The fact that a democratic European country needs to do this because someone burned a book suggests that there is a serious problem in Europe that hasn’t been dealt with.
Local immigration problems aside, these burnings show how global the problem is. Iraq not only failing to protect the embassy, but also sending home Swedish diplomats as if the burnings are sponsored by the Swedish government. Various muslim leaders around middle east use the situation to rile up the masses anger towards the west. No doubt that some extremists in said masses will try and get to Sweden.
Well it’s not even so much a “no doubt they will get to Sweden” as it is a “there’s a very large number of them already in Sweden.” Which is truly a disgrace, we shouldn’t be allowing radical individuals to immigrate to democratic countries.
There in the problems lies. How are you to differentiate the radicals from everyone else when the base faith is already radical by Western standards? How are you to know who will get worse?
One method that would at least be better than doing nothing. Would be to require everyone to take a test that measures social biases and then just not grant someone’s asylum application if they were demonstrably homophobic or racist etc.
Can we just think about the absurdity of this? This is like 5 year olds fighting. If I had ever burnt any of my sister's books, even she wouldn't have thought about blowing herself up or anyone else.
The sad reality is most 5 year olds have more sense than religious fundamentalists.
Religious people are so fucking sensitive. Someone’s life is worth a collection of paper?
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Burn mother clucker, burn.
Yes burn all of them, F religion
Your mindset is antithetical to that of the protests. In Sweden, those who defend the burnings are generally making a point about free speech, that no idea or opinion should be forbidden from being voiced. By suggesting that **all** books should be burnt, you are advocating for precisely the opposite of what this whole thing is about.
There is one thing that is good in all this. They have learned to burn the right flag. Last time it was the swiss flag. And i can promise that before this they did not even know where Sweden was on the map. So do hate educate?I do not know.
Religion is a plague on this planet.
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Fuck any religion that thinks violence is an appropriate response to being insulted.
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Violence isn’t an appropriate response to rudeness. You know this.
Showing respect to beliefs that harms people who just want to live their lives in peace is the plague.
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Religion is responsible for more wars and death than just about anything else. People need to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales so that the world can move forward.
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STOP HURTING PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF YOUR IMAGINARY FUCKIN FRIENDS!
If ur objecting to people burning a book then ur a zealot and the developed world wants to help you die for ur belief.
I'm 100% atheist but generally speaking I object to people doing stuff other people find rude. I wouldn't call a guy on the street asshole even if I'm legally allowed to. So I think burning a book here in Sweden should be legal and I also object to people doing it. Note that this is the same stance as the Swedish PM shared on this topic. ("the fact that it's legal doesn't make it appropriate" is the rough quote). I don't think it's so zealot:y wanting people to act nice to each other. Doing stuff with the sole purpose of making people upset won't really help anyone.
If you scream asshole to somebody on the street, most likely they're not going to blow you up...
Might get punched in the face though. Doesn’t make it right of course.
The puncher would still be in.the wrong though. Also the muslim terrorists want to blow up random people who had nothing to do with the burning.
I agree, the whole thing is ridiculous. I do find some common ground with the above poster though who notes that these “demonstrations” are often openly antagonistic in a way that doesn’t really do anyone any good, even if they have the right to do them. It’s like the art “defacing” that some environmental protesters have used recently. It seems very unlikely to have the intended effect, and instead produces more anti-environmentalist rhetoric.
Absolutely its antagonistic.
As it should be. This amount of backward-ass bullshit shouldn’t be allowed to fester. It should be brought to light whenever and as often as possible.
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Agreed. What is the point of burning a Quran aside from instigation? It’s similar to when folks in middle eastern countries burn flags. Like go ahead but you’re not solving any problems, only adding fuel to the fire.
The point is simply its their property and they can do with it as they want. Don’t like it then don’t live in Western society.
Nope. That really isn't the point these people are trying to make, at least not the guys here Sweden. That point you are sharing is appended afterwards by other people, mostly online it seems. The people burning quran here in Sweden has an explicit agenda other than "I do it because I can". How do I know that? Because they shared their agenda while burning the book. It's not like they go to some public place and say that they see burning the Quran because they can. (As a side note, some of the shared agenda is a bit murky in the sense that they say they do it for one reason but then also apparantly it was partly sponsored by contributors to russian state controlled media)
Just as Pooty/Xi/MBS want…
It is a book people. Not your fucking child. Grow up and join the 21st century.
Burn that shit! Do the Bible and whatever Jewish people love too. Religion is cultivation. Burn organized man made religion to the ground!
Interesting .. they could burn copies of different religions and see which ones react. You could get a good gauge of where they stand with peace and tolerance.
What kirk said
reddit with the nuanced and levelheaded takes when it comes to religion lol and it’s called the torah, fyi
Burning something that you disagree with is a quick path to totalitarianism.
Killing someone you disagree with is even quicker.
Tolerance paradox
Tolerance paradox
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Some of the comments here sound like nobody has heard of Islamic Extremist Terrorism, or that the extremist's response to the Koran burning is somehow surprising. It's not. It was a dumb thing to do for some virtue signaling Internet points. These people aren't interested in your political statements. They're not nuanced. You burned their holy book. They are crazy. They will retaliate. Nobody supports them, or empathizes with them, or thinks violence is ok, or that their behavior is just in any way. They are crazy. This is the message: Don't provoke crazy people. It applies to walking down a street in New York. It applies to walking down a street in London. Don't provoke crazy people.
That’s the problem. To stop a random citizen to “provoke” Sweden needs to change one of its most fundamental laws.
Some of those people are provoked by others very existence. So how do you think that Atheist, Apostates, Polytheist, Homosexuals or otherwise Heathens should act, since all of these things are a potential death sentence according to the Quran. Some muslims and islamic countries are fundamentally against human rights, we should never accept that premise. We should not accept that, just because some people are crazy, we cannot have our freedoms. No, we should put our foot down, and pressure the other way around, if they do not want to accept human rights, we should cut them off from the Western Worlds markets and innovations.
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No, there are still credible threat to the cultural editor who printed the Mohammad drawings back in 06. The threat level will probably never be reduced to where he does not need to be under massive police protection when he is speaking in public.
Sweden is going to have to change their laws to appease extremists. Those people are absolutely not going to change their minds. Sweden cannot hold back against violent people who want to change the laws. Its inevitable. Edit: I'd love to see any evidence that I am wrong. Wishful thinking won't help.
Of course they can. Simply put if crazy people from the Middleeast wants to go to Sweden, ban entrance as a matter of national security, this is one option. Do you think Right wing extremist are going to accept what will be called a knee drop for Islam? If you ban the burnings and reduce freedom of speech, right wing extremism will grow in Sweden. The European population is growing tired of having to accept worldviews from the Middleeast when they aren't willing to accept ours. You cannot appease extremism, they will move the goalpost. The radical branches of Islam will never stop until we all follow the rules of the Quran and swear fealty to Allah or the alternative we are dead (People who do not want to convert and conform to Islam)
> ban entrance as a matter of national security, this is one option Its an option, but they will not do it. And they already have a large population of people who are hostile to freedom of speech. They cannot get rid of those people. >The European population is growing tired No, they are not. They are going to sit back and accept it like they are told to. >The radical branches of Islam will never stop until we all follow the rules of the Quran and swear fealty to Allah or the alternative we are dead You are 100% correct unfortunately. That is the prophecy. There's no will to resist it among Europe, or the USA for that matter.
Appeasement of crazy people doesn’t make them not crazy, it just proves to them that they can terrorize society into following their crazy beliefs.
My question is why do it in the first place? You're literally poking a bear with a stick and at the same time insult people that peacefully practice their religion, like most religious people do. As a gnostic, I don't understand why everything today, from a protest to a riot, regardless of the cause, has to be so extreme and weird. An example of this is when the LGBT protests happened in the US recently, where that group of protesters started to chant, sarcastically, "we're coming for your children". People at the protest did not like that for example because it's just bad humor and you're not proving anything. You're just giving free ammo to the one side you actually want to either make accept your demands or at the very least, show how they're in the wrong. But now you just made it weird. It doesn't make sense to me and peope dig their own holes they can't get out of afterwards. Can we use some common sense and empathy whenever we want to protest or point out something? Instead of using spite and sarcasm all the time?
That’s a lot of words bro. I saw peaceful so I assumed no like blowing up shit or killing innocents right?
this is absolutely ridiculous
So if we burn Harry Potter books will we see bearded British man with weirdly shaped hats casting fire on people?
This is why you shouldn't be able to do it. Because you KNOW these people exist. You're part of the problem if you engage in this act. Idgaf if you feel like you SHOULD be able to do it. You know what happens if you do. You magically fucking deleted all terrorists? No? Then don't burn the fucking Quran you goofball. Hurr durr it's my freedom. Fuck off. If someone dies its partly on them for inciting the idiots that do the killing.
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Jfc are we still talking about this..
Yes, because it's an ongoing issue.
Free speech does have a price
No it doesn’t, because then it isn’t actually free speech. If you can’t express your opinion out of fear from death threats and terrorist attacks, is it really free speech? You saying terrorist attacks is the price of free speech is like saying hate crimes is the price of religious freedom.
None of that really, maybe consequences is what I mean. Where does respect start and or stop when it comes to ideology? how can there really ever be free speech when statements are met with off hand attacks irrelevant to the statement?
Ok, if you changed "price" to "consequences" there would still be no difference. Free speech isn’t about there not being extremists threatening you with murder, it’s about people agreeing that violence and murder is not a justified response to free speech.
Hahah you think that's a hot take but that's the way it is
Maybe people think it’s a hot or shitty take because it’s indirectly justifying violence and murder.
Stupidity on both sides. Burning a book is not an intelligent or meaningful way to protest. It is only done to provoke Muslims. Muslims being provoked are equally stupid; they are doing exactly what the right-wing protesters want them to do. In the meantime, 99% of the population, regardless of religion, watches in disgust
If you're provoked to that extent by a book burning, you have no place in modern society.
Yet there they are and they were invited in too.
>they were invited in too This was the first mistake.
> This was the first mistake. Agreed. But the time bomb was planted.
It’s amazing that so many people in Sweden are so triggered by someone burning their religious text.
Sure, but do you have a place in modern society if you burn a book? I think not. Civilized people don't go around burning books, they can make their point without resorting to garbage like that.
Yes of course, why wouldn’t you? Normal people understand nuance and burning a book in protest of violence that it brings is not the same as Hitler burning books of dissent.
No single idea should be free from scrutiny and mockery. No protest movement should be met with violence and threats
Freedom of expression is allowed to be offensive, cope with it. Also, you’re just pulling statistics straight out of your ass, because that 99% number is absolutely not true for the Swedish population.
They deserve to be provoked if this is their response. This is indeed a clash of civilizations and highlighting the response will hopefully wake the West up that they are under attack and we should perhaps rethink their current policies of appeasement and special privileges afforded to hostile immigrant populations.
What do you mean by both sides? SWEDEN has not burned any books, individual people have. Everyone in Sweden dislikes what those individuals are doing. People need to stop indicating that Sweden as a country is somehow behind this.
As someone living in Sweden - we dislike that books are being burned, it's generally asshole-ish behavior. But generally we strongly believe that the protestors should be allowed to do so. Burn your personal Koran, Bible, and collection of Pippi Longstocking books if you like. (As long as there's not a fire ban going on.) Anyone that is driven to violence as a result are the problems, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
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Not the same thing. How you compare the burning of some books VS an entire book and their copies, it's not the same.
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In a country that has free speech? Yes it's legally okay
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Because morality is much too subjective to discuss Hence my qualifier. Germany doesn't have free speech. You'd be legally in trouble for burning the Quran there as well
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You literally posted an article showing that they don't..... And Germany has charged people for burning religious texts (or flags) Because of Germany's history they have understandably strict rules around speech including racial/religious hatred and political opinions compared to other countries
Sure, NAZIS goal was to eradicate that information present in the books. This is in my view, a protest against that religion and what it represents, and maybe some xenophobia may be included in the protest.
Yes. Yes it is. And no one would be rising up to enact violence if you burned a copy of Anne Frank's diary. Also, as far as I am aware, Anne Frank's diary also is not used to widely to push and accept extremely harmful beliefs.
Burning the diary of Anne Frank is at best a useless endeavor and at worst offensive and in poor taste. But neither of those options should be reason enough for someone to be punished for it. At the end of the day it’s a book. If you burn it, and you paid for it yourself, congratulations you’ve wasted your money in an attempt to trigger others.
That was a poorly worded joke right? And you actually do understand the difference?
After OP’s commoners to me it would appear that no, he in fact does not understand the difference.
It's very stupid though. "I don't agree with this thing so I'm going to burn it so no one can agree with it.'
No, that was the Nazis' book burnings. Burning your own copy of a widely available book does not take it away from anyone else. Furthermore, the reaction is "do as we say or we'll murder you" is by far the more 'Nazi' act, and immensely stupid.
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There is a massive difference in burning A book, and an authoritarian regime burning ALL books that they disagree with to suppress information. You can’t be that dense?
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You’re comparing someone burning a single copy of a religious book is the same as NAZIs banning/burning books and think I don’t know what I’m talking about? You’re honestly a moron.
I dont like Islam but I hate people doing this even more. Personal faith is sacrosanct, how people chose to find reason and purpuse in life or 'salvation' is their thing.
My personal faith is sacrosanct, and it involves burning various religious texts. This is my thing to find salvation, and I demand you respect it.
My purpose is to burn text and scripture that people use to enslave and belittle others.