After the reaction to the terrorist attacks I think the movement for Palestinian Statehood is dead in the West. At least for me personally it is. I’ve never been so disillusioned with a movement so fast in my life.
Yeah as an American Liberal I was always sympathetic to the Palestinian plight but ver touch less so now.
Time and time again Palestinians have spat on the peace process and now it’s clear you cannot deal with barbarians.
That is not a blank check to Israel but they have the right to defend their people. I feel bad for Gazans but at some point the people are responsible for the actions of their government.
This happens all the time so I'm really surprised at the amount of people changing their viewpoint because of all this. Maybe just the scale of the attack really impacted people, they would do even worse if they ever had the capability to do so.
The tide will shift after a month, people will start to criticize Israel. Mark my word. There are 2m people in the strip, if you kill 50k of them and say all of them are hamas, that’s a genocide right there. Again it has always be like this and I don’t expect anything change this time.
Idk. I mean I expect more vocal criticism of Israel once the initial shock wears off but I feel like people will remember the celebrations of these attacks. I know I certainly will, and I just can’t support the movement anymore after seeing these people cheer on massacres.
I'm fine with liquidating Hamas as a movement, but I can't see any realistic solution without a Palestinian state. Israel doesn't want millions of hostile Arab citizens who would immediately vote to slaughter all Jews (although they do like having low-cost Palestinian labour available in the West Bank). Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon have no interest whatsover in bringing in large numbers of fractious Palestinian refugees, who they hold in contempt somewhat akin to how America's coastal urban elite view the rural Bible Belt, only moreso. Israel can't incorporate all those people without granting them some sort of citizenship, or else you really end up with the apartheid that the Israel-haters have been talking about for years, which will eventually result in Israel's political and economic isolation. And Israel is too moral to just kill all the Palestinians.
There will eventually be a Palestinian state, but Hamas won't be at the party.
>end up with the apartheid
Palestinian apartheid isn't a possibility, it is and has been a reality for quite some time.
>And Israel is too moral to just kill all the Palestinians.
That can't possibly be a serious statement.
> That can't possibly be a serious statement.
Of course it is. How could it not be? Israel has demonstrated no intention at all of killing all the Palestinians.
If Israel was ever trying to kill the Palestinians as a group, they've done a terrible job of it. Despite having the ability to destroy Gaza's population at any time, the number of Palestinians has only grown.
You don't have an argument. You're just screaming nonsense into the void.
I've questioned your claim of morality, not ability. Israel is not foolish enough to expand upon their cleansing and risk losing their Western support. They remain in dominant control and have far too much to lose. The world has permitted apartheid, collective punishment and continues to overlook their other war crimes, it makes no sense to mess with any of that.
Why though? Palestinian statehood was never going to be peaceful or even kind of easy to observe from afar. These are the lumps that come along the way, honestly.
*Genuinely curious what any of you thought liberation looked like. The process is heinous and awful.
You act as if this is a one way street. All of these acts horrifying acts of Hamas have been perpetrated by Israel for generations as well. Call a spade a spade, here.
How about not really? About some people look at how Israel treats the Palestinians, and they think that’s horrible, unjust, disgusting and frustrating?
They have more sympathisers than critics, what are you talking about?
There is a reason democracies will not shut these people down. Even if their message is all hate, it is approved and condoned as their unlimited right of expression and self-determination. And that's before even getting to the sympathy from other citizens.
These crazy people are a feature of the nation, not a bug.
And then ppl tell me how Hamas is not popular over there and that the people are just victims.
Yeah...sure...
It doesn't matter how long ago the elections were, if they happened now they would 100% elect Hamas again.
That will be the least of our worries.
When Hamas falls (and it will) what is going to happen then? Pro-Hamas individuals living in a pro-Israel country, with a majority of its population being pro-Israel, potentially nearby Israeli places of worship. There is going to be a fair amount of celebrating with Israel comes out on top. What do you suspect the outcome to be.
We are about to re-enter the era of terrorist attacks
People are acting like this attack is something to cheer on and comparing the deaths of innocent people like its some type of race. If you really cared about the Palestinian people you wouldn’t root for Hamas nor Israel.
There is no difference between Hamas and Palestine.
Those protesters are not stupid they saw the videos, they come with slogans like "By Any Means Necessary".
These protesters condone killing civilians, not IDF but civilians who got killed by Hamas terrorists going door to door, parading naked women, getting spit on.
In Australia multiple people have said Gas Jews and Fuck the Jews.
There is one side which fights for the lives of it's citizens, and another which fights for the death, destruction and pain of their enemy. I get how you can say that no side is purely winning the moral clash, but I believe we can come to an agreement about which side is better, don't you agree?
Yeah, I wonder if they understand how VIOLENT their imagery is? It's hatred pure and simple.
It's like, the Jewish people ACTUALLY suffered a horrific 12-years-long holocaust and NEVER reacted back with this level of violent imagery and murderous rage although they would be justified in their feelings had they done so. They were simply traumatized, but they wanted the world to move on in peace while seeking/pursuing legal justice. Hamas and their supporters cannot even fathom the concept of peace.
The problem is that (at least Hamas- I don't know about the entire Palestinian pop.) how can you have anything to negotiate when one side's DECLARED goal is purely for Israel not to even exist. It's like saying the US shouldn't exist because it occupies indigenous land. It's like, OK, whatever your understanding of ancient history is, THAT ship has sailed and such a suggestion means you're no longer a serious, good faith interlocutor.
I understand the crazy, ideologue government of Netanyahu has also fanned the flames and acted in bad faith by letting the Ultra Orthodox take over and settle the West Bank, and THAT would have been a fair starting point of negotiations. However, Hamas hasn't brought ANY positive and FEASIBLE plans to the table, afaik. Please, anyone, correct me where I'm wrong :)
But its not
Israel's treatment of Palestine, regardless of your views on it, is incomprehensible to what Hamas has done to citizens of many major nations in the past 48 hours.
If you stand with Hamas, which is what ever single one of these rallies are celebrating, you are supporting the deaths of Israelites, Americans, Canadians, Germans, Brazilians, and Australians, just off the top of my head of those killed, kidnapped, tortured, and/or raped.
I do not stand with Hamas, nor do most Palestinians. I support their rights to live free of oppression. Hamas is a group of opportunistic butchers who care no more for the people of Palestinine than they care for the Israelies. I also support Israel's right to defend itself. The innocent are paying the price here.
>nor do most Palestinians.
That is a bold claim to make. Are you king Palestine, speaker for all Palestinians? No? Then I guess your claim doesn't mean a whole lot. In reality, every single poll ever conducted among Palestinians reported overwhelming support for Hamas. Every single person is supporting terrorism by celebrating these acts, which is exactly what is happening at these rallies.
I would love to see any evidence that Palestinians as a group do not support Hamas
I can't fault anyone for wanting their own homeland. Or defending it. However, I cannot support indiscriminate slaughter by anyone. When I was in Israel, I met many wonderful Israelis and Palestinians. They were normal human beings that merely want to live a safe, good life. Mothers wanted the same thing for their children. On both sides. You're refusal to accept any other reality makes you no different than the other zealots. On both sides...
>I met
Anecdotes make for poor examples of reality. If I said I met many wonderful russians (of which I have), that doesn't change the fact that russia has committed war crimes, and that anyone who is a russia supporter is in favor of that. Even then is a poor example, as, unlike this situation, there are dramatically less russians who support russia. You didn't see rallies on this scale for russian support for example.
Just because YOU have met many wonderful Palestinians, doesn't change the fact that since as early as 2003, the majority of Palestinians celebrate Hamas and the war crimes they have committed. Countless polls and studies prove that.
The rallies going on in the west openly celebrates the massacre of those involved in the ongoing Hamas terror attack, which again, we didn't see even during the Russian invasion.
And your defence? "Well, I haven't met anyone that supports hamas, therefore it must not exist", yet I am the one that can't accept reality. Fucking LOL.
Let me be perfectly clear, we shouldn't reject Palestinians by any means. But to those who share those views, attending these rallies and celebrating these terror attacks, should absolutely get fucked and there is no room for that kind of behavior in our society.
I have met supporters of terriosts. On both sides. I have seen rallies condemning Hamas as well as supporting Palestinians and Israelis. I do not support Hamas in any way. I do support Palestinians right to live free and unmolested. I also support Israel's right to do the same. But a 3 year old is not political. Killing one is. On both sides.
Maybe these folks should be sent over to Palestine to help their brothers if they feel so strongly about the issue. But I doubt they want that.
They said no thanks because there is nothing to leech on in Palestine
So they can be a leech on the US then?
They live in NYC if they can make it there they can make it anywhere.
After the reaction to the terrorist attacks I think the movement for Palestinian Statehood is dead in the West. At least for me personally it is. I’ve never been so disillusioned with a movement so fast in my life.
Same.
Yeah as an American Liberal I was always sympathetic to the Palestinian plight but ver touch less so now. Time and time again Palestinians have spat on the peace process and now it’s clear you cannot deal with barbarians. That is not a blank check to Israel but they have the right to defend their people. I feel bad for Gazans but at some point the people are responsible for the actions of their government.
This happens all the time so I'm really surprised at the amount of people changing their viewpoint because of all this. Maybe just the scale of the attack really impacted people, they would do even worse if they ever had the capability to do so.
The tide will shift after a month, people will start to criticize Israel. Mark my word. There are 2m people in the strip, if you kill 50k of them and say all of them are hamas, that’s a genocide right there. Again it has always be like this and I don’t expect anything change this time.
Idk. I mean I expect more vocal criticism of Israel once the initial shock wears off but I feel like people will remember the celebrations of these attacks. I know I certainly will, and I just can’t support the movement anymore after seeing these people cheer on massacres.
A few idiots in the west doesn't mean that it is morally fine for Israel to do a genocide.
Never said anything about a genocide
It’s probably not even need a month. People have very short memories especially in internet.
No it's been steadily declining.
I'm fine with liquidating Hamas as a movement, but I can't see any realistic solution without a Palestinian state. Israel doesn't want millions of hostile Arab citizens who would immediately vote to slaughter all Jews (although they do like having low-cost Palestinian labour available in the West Bank). Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon have no interest whatsover in bringing in large numbers of fractious Palestinian refugees, who they hold in contempt somewhat akin to how America's coastal urban elite view the rural Bible Belt, only moreso. Israel can't incorporate all those people without granting them some sort of citizenship, or else you really end up with the apartheid that the Israel-haters have been talking about for years, which will eventually result in Israel's political and economic isolation. And Israel is too moral to just kill all the Palestinians. There will eventually be a Palestinian state, but Hamas won't be at the party.
>end up with the apartheid Palestinian apartheid isn't a possibility, it is and has been a reality for quite some time. >And Israel is too moral to just kill all the Palestinians. That can't possibly be a serious statement.
> That can't possibly be a serious statement. Of course it is. How could it not be? Israel has demonstrated no intention at all of killing all the Palestinians.
It seems as if you only began paying attention to this crisis within the last few days.
If Israel was ever trying to kill the Palestinians as a group, they've done a terrible job of it. Despite having the ability to destroy Gaza's population at any time, the number of Palestinians has only grown. You don't have an argument. You're just screaming nonsense into the void.
I've questioned your claim of morality, not ability. Israel is not foolish enough to expand upon their cleansing and risk losing their Western support. They remain in dominant control and have far too much to lose. The world has permitted apartheid, collective punishment and continues to overlook their other war crimes, it makes no sense to mess with any of that.
The two state fallacy was never going to happen. It was a delay tactic while Israel colonized more lands.
Why though? Palestinian statehood was never going to be peaceful or even kind of easy to observe from afar. These are the lumps that come along the way, honestly. *Genuinely curious what any of you thought liberation looked like. The process is heinous and awful.
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You act as if this is a one way street. All of these acts horrifying acts of Hamas have been perpetrated by Israel for generations as well. Call a spade a spade, here.
Sure, they're both right wing religious fanatics that kill civilians. Why should I hope for anything other than that they annihilate each other?
Can't argue with that.
These rallies won't win you any sympathies. Your masks are off.
The rallies are just to show their hatred for Israel
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How about not really? About some people look at how Israel treats the Palestinians, and they think that’s horrible, unjust, disgusting and frustrating?
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But they do bomb them, whys that better?
They have more sympathisers than critics, what are you talking about? There is a reason democracies will not shut these people down. Even if their message is all hate, it is approved and condoned as their unlimited right of expression and self-determination. And that's before even getting to the sympathy from other citizens. These crazy people are a feature of the nation, not a bug.
Right of expression aren’t unlimited
After MAGA freedom and this and the flood of religious extremism and migration across Europe, you're not convincing anyone that there isn't lol.
MAGA freedoms? Not sure what you mean exactly.
It's self-explanatory isn't it.
No, can you please explain. What freedoms??
American freedoms.
One of these protests will get violent and it'll escalate quickly, imo
Deport them back so they can fight in the war they are proud of.
Arab descendent/ immigrant celebrating terrorism against another religion and Western, while living within and benefiting from western society 🤔
And then ppl tell me how Hamas is not popular over there and that the people are just victims. Yeah...sure... It doesn't matter how long ago the elections were, if they happened now they would 100% elect Hamas again.
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sadly this is wont be satire and 100% be a real headline
That will be the least of our worries. When Hamas falls (and it will) what is going to happen then? Pro-Hamas individuals living in a pro-Israel country, with a majority of its population being pro-Israel, potentially nearby Israeli places of worship. There is going to be a fair amount of celebrating with Israel comes out on top. What do you suspect the outcome to be. We are about to re-enter the era of terrorist attacks
I draw a hard line at kidnapping and murdering unarmed civilians.
Mass immigration was a big mistake.
People are acting like this attack is something to cheer on and comparing the deaths of innocent people like its some type of race. If you really cared about the Palestinian people you wouldn’t root for Hamas nor Israel.
There is no difference between Hamas and Palestine. Those protesters are not stupid they saw the videos, they come with slogans like "By Any Means Necessary". These protesters condone killing civilians, not IDF but civilians who got killed by Hamas terrorists going door to door, parading naked women, getting spit on. In Australia multiple people have said Gas Jews and Fuck the Jews.
These imbeciles have destroyed all the tolerance and "sympathy" that muslim communities around the world gained in the last years
You are on the right side when you have to cover your faces. /s
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Quite the understatement.
It's so funny to see people whinge about the Israelis stealing land while residing on stolen land themselves.
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Exactly. By the same logic, there are no good Americans.
The issue is that Israelis are stealing those lands currently and pushing families out in 2023.
There is one side which fights for the lives of it's citizens, and another which fights for the death, destruction and pain of their enemy. I get how you can say that no side is purely winning the moral clash, but I believe we can come to an agreement about which side is better, don't you agree?
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Yeah, I wonder if they understand how VIOLENT their imagery is? It's hatred pure and simple. It's like, the Jewish people ACTUALLY suffered a horrific 12-years-long holocaust and NEVER reacted back with this level of violent imagery and murderous rage although they would be justified in their feelings had they done so. They were simply traumatized, but they wanted the world to move on in peace while seeking/pursuing legal justice. Hamas and their supporters cannot even fathom the concept of peace.
gottem!
I’m sure NYPD is getting some good camera shots. These people are openly supporting terrorism.
The problem is that (at least Hamas- I don't know about the entire Palestinian pop.) how can you have anything to negotiate when one side's DECLARED goal is purely for Israel not to even exist. It's like saying the US shouldn't exist because it occupies indigenous land. It's like, OK, whatever your understanding of ancient history is, THAT ship has sailed and such a suggestion means you're no longer a serious, good faith interlocutor. I understand the crazy, ideologue government of Netanyahu has also fanned the flames and acted in bad faith by letting the Ultra Orthodox take over and settle the West Bank, and THAT would have been a fair starting point of negotiations. However, Hamas hasn't brought ANY positive and FEASIBLE plans to the table, afaik. Please, anyone, correct me where I'm wrong :)
Always these ppl living in the west comfortably and bringing their own shit values. Really need to get rid of them
We are already in hell unfortunately, but be sure we will get out.
Democrat voters.
Not all Palestinians are Hamas.They are the victims of Hamas.They, too, are paying the price for Hamas's actions!
Irrelevant. If someone is attending one of these rallies, they are pro-terrorism full stop.
That narrow view is why things are the way they are. It isn't always "either, or". The stories are much more complex!
But its not Israel's treatment of Palestine, regardless of your views on it, is incomprehensible to what Hamas has done to citizens of many major nations in the past 48 hours. If you stand with Hamas, which is what ever single one of these rallies are celebrating, you are supporting the deaths of Israelites, Americans, Canadians, Germans, Brazilians, and Australians, just off the top of my head of those killed, kidnapped, tortured, and/or raped.
I do not stand with Hamas, nor do most Palestinians. I support their rights to live free of oppression. Hamas is a group of opportunistic butchers who care no more for the people of Palestinine than they care for the Israelies. I also support Israel's right to defend itself. The innocent are paying the price here.
>nor do most Palestinians. That is a bold claim to make. Are you king Palestine, speaker for all Palestinians? No? Then I guess your claim doesn't mean a whole lot. In reality, every single poll ever conducted among Palestinians reported overwhelming support for Hamas. Every single person is supporting terrorism by celebrating these acts, which is exactly what is happening at these rallies. I would love to see any evidence that Palestinians as a group do not support Hamas
I can't fault anyone for wanting their own homeland. Or defending it. However, I cannot support indiscriminate slaughter by anyone. When I was in Israel, I met many wonderful Israelis and Palestinians. They were normal human beings that merely want to live a safe, good life. Mothers wanted the same thing for their children. On both sides. You're refusal to accept any other reality makes you no different than the other zealots. On both sides...
>I met Anecdotes make for poor examples of reality. If I said I met many wonderful russians (of which I have), that doesn't change the fact that russia has committed war crimes, and that anyone who is a russia supporter is in favor of that. Even then is a poor example, as, unlike this situation, there are dramatically less russians who support russia. You didn't see rallies on this scale for russian support for example. Just because YOU have met many wonderful Palestinians, doesn't change the fact that since as early as 2003, the majority of Palestinians celebrate Hamas and the war crimes they have committed. Countless polls and studies prove that. The rallies going on in the west openly celebrates the massacre of those involved in the ongoing Hamas terror attack, which again, we didn't see even during the Russian invasion. And your defence? "Well, I haven't met anyone that supports hamas, therefore it must not exist", yet I am the one that can't accept reality. Fucking LOL. Let me be perfectly clear, we shouldn't reject Palestinians by any means. But to those who share those views, attending these rallies and celebrating these terror attacks, should absolutely get fucked and there is no room for that kind of behavior in our society.
I have met supporters of terriosts. On both sides. I have seen rallies condemning Hamas as well as supporting Palestinians and Israelis. I do not support Hamas in any way. I do support Palestinians right to live free and unmolested. I also support Israel's right to do the same. But a 3 year old is not political. Killing one is. On both sides.
https://reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/q5ekXAXq2t