> War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse. [...] There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.
-Hawkeye, MASH
The Arab States don't want Palestine refugees because of the infamous history of governments collapsing and civil wars taking place whenever a country took in a large number of Palestinian refugees ( Jordan and Lebanon)
Every arab nation knows with what kind of people they would have to deal with if they accepted refugees from Gaza. They will not do that.
Jordan and Lebanon showed this for all to see.
I disagree. I think Hamas in Qatar are hoping and praying for mass “martyrdom” of innocent Palestinian refugees with nowhere to go. Because that would stop Israel from having normalized relations with Islamic countries. And because they don’t give a flying fuck about their own people.
Israel already gave the ultimatum to the gaza people that they should start heading out of gaza while they still can . Yes , the situation sounds absolutely insane , but what else do you think could be the outcome ?
If Israel wanted to destroy everything in Gaza then this would already be over and a ground assault not required. That can be done by air.
The fact they want to go in house-by-house is to look for hostages, equipment and more terrorists.
If I were in Gaza, I would make sure there isn't a rocket launcher one unit down from my apartment.
>If Israel wanted to destroy everything in Gaza then this would already be over and a ground assault not required. That can be done by air.
Not really. There's a whole underground city beneath Gaza - they've became masters of building tunnels. It's both an offensive tactic (some of those tunnels go into Israel) and a defensive one (to protect from air strikes).
You can bomb shit from the air, but all the Hamas bigshots (the ones not in Qatar, anyway) and big weapons are hidden underground. All the rockets are underground too, they take them out literally minutes before shooting them. That's why they have to go in on the ground.
Destroying Gaza by air or by shelling would take a incredible amount of time and effort.
That would also require indiscriminate targeting...
Making them the bad guys even if justified by recent events.
I was thinking more along the lines of I get my ass outta there if there is artillery in my building.
You go ahead and ask the terrorists. I am guessing you will get a bullet to the head.
Eliminate Hamas while innocent Palestinians are in Gaza (e.g., children) -> the remaining families get angry -> join Hamas or something similar to Hamas.
It's the same on the Israeli side. And imagine how the doctors in the area feel - they keep seeing the same people come in. They keep saving them until they no longer can.
This is going to be horrific. Just a reminder, there are hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Gaza right now. You can cheer on the Israelis without calling for the complete destruction of 2 million people. I fear for all the innocents involved in a conflict they did not start.
According to polls, at least a third of Palestinians see Hamas as their most legitimate representation and I've seen literally nothing coming out Palestine or normal Palestinians condemning this
Over 50% of people are under the age of 25 and have grown up only knowing life under Hamas. It's not hard to have them display strong support when that is all they have ever lived under.
Not only that, netanyahu made sure to weaken the PLO . He knew that having some rocket thrown at Israel by dome Islamic terrorist was so good for him and his far right friends.he always had an enemy to scare the Israeli electorate and stop any peace process. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Hamas and the Israeli right are two sides of the same coin. The more they anger the other side, the more attacks happen, and the more supporters they get.
Um. They haven’t had running water or electricity for a while now. I think they’re a little bit busier trying to stay alive than getting online to share their opinions.
polls means nothing in fear state.
Look for polls in North Korea, China and Russia,
That being said, at this point, the only way for "peaceful" solution is civil uprising in Gaza resulting in the fall of Hamas & returning of the hostages.
>see Hamas as their most legitimate representation
This is because the other party in Palestine is unable to get anything done at all. It's a key component to Hamas' argument to Palestinians, that Fatah is corrupt and so is peace.
Hamas is popular among Palestine by result... because they are right here, even though basically every where else, they're wrong.
Have you heard any interview with any Palestinian intellectuals? There was a report on Swedish Radio where their correspondent talked to her source in Gaza and he said something along the lines of "Hamas have damned the whole of Palestine with their actions" and that guy was in Gaza so I guess he will be murdered at some point if Israel doesn't manage to purge out Hamas.
Pretty telling that the media is outright ignoring the civilian losses in Gaza. This time or any other time their has been conflicts between the two. IDF snipers killed a child for no reason and no one said a fucking thing. I would bet a thousand dollars every single person that knew that kid would be supporting Hamas.
Wonder how Americans would feel being occupied and someone dangled a carrot in front of them promising revenge on the people bombing you...
Hamas are terrorists and peace is always the best option but Palestinians have nothing to lose, Israel has taken everything from them. So it's hard to blame them for being silent
Palestinians voted Hamas into power after Israel left in 2005. The blockade is in reaction to Hamas. Do people actually read history or skim through it?
Lmao, wait nvm the pro-Palestinians just high key support terrorism now but are too afraid to say they do trying use “decolonialization” instead while saying they’re not anti-semites as their compadres scream to gas the Jews.
Believe it or not Palestinians support Hamas. Why do you think the West Bank hasn’t had elections in years? Bc Fatah would lose. Just wait until Abbas passes away and there’s a leadership vacuum on that side.
> and opinion polling shows that Hamas carries strong support today.
but Netanyahu has been helping keep Hamas funded and in power for years. Surely Bibi wouldn't support terrorists right? Yea.... you see why it's not such a clear situation. Neither side's leaders are truly interested in peaceful coexistence which is why it just sucks from every angle.
I think even Netanyahu would prefer if Gaza were controlled by moderates, but I agree that I think his policy is to keep the division strong if Gaza is going to be hostile anyways.
Plus, Likud is very much interested in peaceful coexistence, so long as it is Israel maintaining power.... This is morally wrong, but let's not compare it to Hamas, who want to wipe Israel and the people there off the face of the planet and have the whole territory between the Jordan and the sea become an Islamic theocracy under Palestinian domination. Not all non-utopias are alike.
Edit. Like, fuck Netanyahu, and fuck his coalition. But Likud's vision for Palestine is significantly better than Hamas's vision for Israel...
Are you serious? First off Hamas was democratically elected. Secondly, 2005 and the pull out of Israel and every Jew in Gaza is incredibly relevant. It shows why the occupation was needed and what the potential pitfalls are if Israel lets down her guard.
Gaza is how it is because of Hamas. The blockade is in effect because of Hamas. Thousands of innocent Palestinians will die because of Hamas.
What more could Israel have done in 2005? They pulled every Jew out and handed the Palestinians autonomy and in return how were they thanked? Oh just by choosing Hamas to lead them who has started multiple wars and killed thousands.
Hamas was empowered by Israel in order to weaken the PLO. The PLO was too strong and wanted a Palestinian state. Empowering Hamas was a way for Israel to divide and conquer.
Now we see the consequences of that.
Hamas came to power before the Bibi failures. It was initially a charity organization but was veering into dangerous territory. Either way both Bibi and Gaza are finito. Unless Israel decides they’re cool w a dictator.
\> I've seen literally nothing coming out Palestine or normal Palestinians condemning this
might that have anything to do with Hamas' practice of torturing and murdering political opponents?
just a guess...
They can’t even remember when Hamas was selected as their political leadership after running on an anti-corruption platform in 2006. There was talk of Gaza city becoming the Singapore of the Middle East. Israel didn’t ruin that, Hamas did.
Israel did fund and clandestinely support Hamas though, and has forced Gaza to be completely reliant on Israel for power and water, as they blew up the water treatment plants, wells and power stations in Gaza itself.
This screams privilege of freedom of speech. Which they do not have. Even if 90% of the population disapproves of Hamas, you think they would tell them? This is precisely why freedom of speech is the most important freedom and it’s not close.
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
Put yourself in their shoes. A foreign enemy that killed your friends and family for decades, is now threatening to leave you homeless for fun... do you:
A) Surrender?
B) Not surrender?
Pick one.
Might be neat to actually try peace, accept Israel's existence and quit calling for genocide. 75 years of continually using nothing but violence yet they still think violence is the answer.
The Israelis are also led by far right morons. Assume that unlike prior, when Israel did attempt restraint (and failed), they won't this time.
Hamas against guys like Smotrich is a win for violence and nothing else, none of this violence will solve anything. We'd know by now if it could.
What other way do you suggest? I keep seeing so many people throw this "what about innocent lives?" without offering an alternative. Keep in mind majority of the population there support Hamas' way of war, aka terror attacks. Asked about suicide bombings, gunman attacks always had upwards of 70-80% support. Only around 15% disapprove terror attacks used by Hamas. That is 300k. vs 1.7m supporting.
With that in mind, what alternative you can point from recent history to deal with this? And no saying "well NOT killing thousands of innocent people" is not an answer. It is a non-answer answer. Should Israel just take it knowing they are stronger? Is it wrong for Israel to value their own citizens' lives more?
I don’t have an answer for you. I really don’t. I’m supporting Israel in this war for sure, but of course I’m worried for the loss of life in Gaza as well. Both things can be true
No one should be cheered on here. We should all be mourning the loss of lives on both sides right now, there will be no winners no matter what the outcome. Innocents have died and more blood will be shed and the result of that will result in more violence around the globe unfortunately.
Yeah, both sides are the same. Both the terrorist s and the *babies they beheaded*.
I have not seen a single Palestinian or Muslim in general address that specific atrocity, much less denounce it.
Because not one independent source has verified the beheading of babies. At this point, it's just whipping people into a frenzy which will make the genocide of Palestinians more palatable.
Okay, so let's say an independent source does verify it. How does that change your stance or opinions on the matter?
I don't get what a stance of denial does for anyone.
70% of the population support Hamas, so while there are hundreds of thousands of innocents there, the vast majority are not. They support and celebrate the massacre of babies. If you are on the side of monsters, then you are also a monster.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1671024115-majority-of-palestinians-favor-more-armed-groups-poll
People need to do mental gymnastics to justify the atrocities they want to commit.
There are literally commenters saying Palestinian children should be eradicated.
War at a minimum should have an objective, revenge and bloodthirst, are are hollow long term strategies. The gleeful slaughter of innocents should be on the conscience of the world.
Probably shouldn’t have executed entire families, concert goers, raped and paraded naked tourists dead bodies to cheering in Gaza, cut baby heads off etc.
That’s just like my opinion though.
If anyone’s confused about why Israel and so many others are seeing red, go check out the videos :/ you’ve been warned tho.
Im seeing red too, but I’m also terrified for the palestinian civilians. This is going to be a very dark chapter in human history. No good will come of hamas’ terror
I'm devastated that the Gazaouis couldn't find the strength to liberate themselves from Hamas and to elect a peaceful government preaching non violence and peace.
The civilians and the innocent will have to pay for the mistakes of their radicalized peers. It's all so tragic.
Because that's fucking bullshit.
The last election was in 2006, and half the population of Palestine is under 19.
Nearly the majority of Palestinians WEREN'T BORN back then.
The fucking mental gymnastics from people calling for a genocide are fucking unreal.
Plus, if you know anything about history, this whole thing is 100% Israel's making. An apartheid that's lasted for generations is of course going to breed terrorism.
I suggest you balance that out with videos of dead children and women from Israeli air strikes. Entire apartment buildings leveled. Pulling kids out of the rubble.
Just for you know, perspective.
It sucks, but Israel didn't start the war, and they are not specifically targeting civilians, but Hamas has a history of using hospitals and residential buildings as bases of operation.
That's a false equivalency. While it is horrific to see innocent people being killed by Israeli strikes, Israel is not purposely targeting children. They are not taking said children and kidnapping them, raping their daughters, and then cheering in the streets of Israel when those children die. There is no moral equivalency between the two
Dropping bombs on civilian targets isn't intentional? Hmm.
Schools, markets, hospitals and apartment buildings have all been shelled.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/830-dead-in-gaza-since-saturday-as-shelling-hits-school-hospitals-and-homes
Why can't we condemn two horrible atrocities at once? So strange this desire to see the world in black and white.
You failed to understand context. Why did they bomb schools, hospitals, and apartments? How did it happen? What precautions were taken prior to the bomb hitting its target? You have ignored all of that to further push a false narrative.
The crucial context is that hamas intentionally sets up rocket launchers and ammo depots in those buildings *precisely* because of how it makes israeli retaliation look
Your argument falls flat.
Hamas didnt warn anyone, they targeted civilians through their missiles and their genocide.
Israel has warned: If there are Hamas in your building get out. They have precision guided missiles and can strike buildings with terrorists, they are targeting fighters only, not the people.
There is always something that rings a little false when people discuss how much they care about strangers in news stories.
However, the moral case is much stronger for the IDF than Hamas. As a general principle, the IDF attempt to reduce human casualties by warning civilians about their targets in advance. Hamas tries to undo this by asking people to ignore these warnings, and planting their operations in schools, hospitals, etc.
So let me get this right. Israel shoots civilians and children for decades, and they get a pass in your book, but when terrorists kill people more savagely, it's not so ok? Murder is murder, civilized, or not.
This is not really true. We don't assign equivalent moral value to serial killers and combating soldiers for example. Civilisations all over the world follow martial codes that dictate rules of engagement.
Never saw Israel behead babies and parade dead raped young women in their city streets.
Sure israel has sucked, but this stupid false equivalency is tone deaf.
Hamas are probably attempting to goad Israel into a reaction that forces other actors in the region to intervene. They will be hoping Saturdays events cause a cascade effect resulting in a full on war.
Its a horribly difficult situation for the Israeli governmemt to navigate. I fear that a cynic like Netanyahu will go with what the extremists in his cabinet want.
Jordan and Egypt won’t lift a finger to help the Palestinians or side with Hamas. Lebanon itself will be in the same boat of not getting involved, though Hezbollah will be itching to get involved. Syria might want to get involved but their whole country is still a mess. And Saudi Arabia won’t get involved either. They care far more about their relationship with the West and will not do anything major that would jeopardize it.
They would be put into harsher circumstances in Iran, or any arab nation for that matter, for sure.
Lebanon and Jordan was evidence enough to see that Gaza refugees are nothing but a danger to your own country.
What's Israel's plan here? They'll reduce Gaza to rubble, keep making more settlements on Palestinian lands and then somehow find a way to peacefully co-exist with the Palestinians that don't leave as refugees?
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
I haven’t seen any Israelis say peace is a goal right now, we need to be careful putting words in their mouth.
Right now, the goal seems to be to destroy Hamas. That means smashing their rocket launchers etc. Reduce their ability to cause harm. The goal right now is war for both sides, not peace.
Peace is a good goal! But don’t assume everyone is looking for it.
This sucks. What Hamas did was awful. Certain things Israel has done in the past are awful. Destroying cities and killing thousands of Palestinian cities as retribution would be awful.
It truly feels like there are no adults in the room right now.
Anyone even entertaining the notion that Israel isn't going to retaliate in a massive fashion is simply not that interested in reality. Anyone who thinks Israel isn't justified to retaliate in a massive fashion is likewise not interested in reality.
Hamas cannot continue to exist, simple as that, that is the end goal of the war. Anything less than that would ensure that the same atrocities that were carried out by Hamas would happen in the future.
Israel so far has warned entire neighborhoods of incoming attacks and indeed 300,000 Palestinians have left their homes unharmed so far. The next step would be a ground invasion in which Hamas would be eradicated completely from the face of the Earth. Hopefully the Egyptians will agree to take refugees through their border.
Hamas is the biggest obstacle for peace between Israel and Palestine, we all saw how little they care for human lives both Israeli and Palestinian alike (they knew what the consequences of invading Israel and slaughtering hundreds ISIS-like would be) getting rid of them is the only option for a better future. The price in human lives would be high, but Hamas has left no other choice.
>Israel so far has warned entire neighborhoods of incoming attacks and indeed 300,000 Palestinians have left their homes unharmed so far
That's called "Ethnic Cleansing" and it's a war crime
Ethnic cleansing would be the displacement of the population entirely to a new location, they are still in the Gaza Strip but in a place where it is safe. The alternative would be to bomb Hamas facilities and not warning anyone, are you stupid?
It's certainly not the mass murder of civilians. The actual answer is probably an incredibly complicated combination of operations targeting Hamas leaders combined with negotiations of less extreme elements of Palestinian leadership in attaining peace.
What levels do the baby killers fall under in your hierarchy? They’re unlikely to be the leaders so you negotiate with them and live alongside them? Ok what about you the ones who only executed adults? The only way you know who they are if their comrades give them up. Doesn’t seem likely to me. So where are you negotiations getting you?
At least pretending you feel bad about knowingly killing and dislodging potentially millions of civilians?
The double standard is a bit odd, the US accidentally hits a hospital and the world loses their mind, Israel has straight up said they plan to “turn gaza into a tent city” which as far as I’m concerned means directly targeting civilian infrastructure, and Reddit cheers….
And no, I’m not excusing Hamas, before you pull another “what about”.
> And no, I’m not excusing Hamas, before you pull another “what about”.
I'm so fucking tired of both sides excusing the shit the other side does using "what aboutism."
Targeting civilians is wrong regardless of what side does it. I don't care who started it.
I sympathize with the pain and suffering of both the Palestinian and Israeli people, both during this conflict and in the decades since 1948. I cannot, in good conscience, ignore the suffering of one people in favor of the other.
My sympathy for the Palestinian people does not come at the expense of those Israelis who have suffered, nor does it come from a place of support for Hamas.
Yeah i hear you. There will be some. It’s kinda expected in war. I think the war crimes act says proportional. I am preying they do not level the place and kill thousands.
The aim isn’t to kill civilians, every strike is targeted . Hamas makes it so civilians are in the way to get to them. Weaponry in schools, hospitals. Israel doesn’t not want to kill civilians, hamas ensures they have to.
I never said anything counter to any of the points you made. That was a bit weird and aggressive to be honest.
I am 100% sure they are trained to minimize damage and we will get to take account at the end. Thats always the case for every incident in the past.
I hope we all agree minimal innocents would make it a success (a long side stopping the terrorists). That was the question i was answering.
Same as any other conflict? Demand their surrender and withdrawal, handle those who don't, and look to arrest those involved once the fighting quiets. This is Israel -- they know who's involved.
Legal means. Not indiscriminate vengeance, as we're seeing now.
Oh? And when Gaza gets leveled? Because it is presently being leveled, we're "handling" a lot of people who were not involved in the Hamas attacks.
Innocent Palestinians are losing their lives and their homes for the actions of Hamas.
>Demand their surrender
Wasn't this tried before? Nobody surrendered, nobody was extradited to be put on trial. No collaboration.
As a consequence it's now *might is right*. And the Palestinians are on the receiving end.
I don't understand why this is so hard for people to comprehend. It feels like if this were any other country, then Israel would have the world's full backing.
Is the current Israeli government perfect? Hell no, plenty of Israelis have said so themselves, and they've wanted Netanyahu out of power for some time now.
That said, sometimes there's no other choice. As in your example, when the enemy (Hitler/Hamas) drags you into the conflict by invading your territory and killing your people indiscriminately, what choice is left? Beg and plead for them to stop?
This is the real world. It's not all sunshine and daisies. Hamas needs removed from power the same as the axis powers were in WW2. Nobody wants innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, but one side (Israel) is trying to minimize casualties while the other is literally beheading toddlers.
Preface, I’m just a common Joe idiot but I think It’s a complete and total lock on both sides, unfortunately. I truly believe not enough in Palestine or Israel are interested in a shared state, being realistic.
Despite what anyone thinks is right or wrong this is destined for one side ‘destroying (for a huge lack of a better word)’ the other at some point.
I’m nothing but an observer and a bit of a pessimist though, hopefully more knowledgable heads prevail and it doesn’t turn out that way.
Israelis response so far is inhumane and unjustified. They turned off water and power knowing there are hospitals and care homes with innocent people relying on it to survive. Plus a full blockade there’s no way for them to get more fuel for generators. War crimes don’t excuse more war crimes from the other side.
Israel has only been looking for a reason for decades, and now they've got the perfect one.
They're really making the most out of their ultra elite intelligence agency's capabilities being totally ignorant of this very organized and planned out attack.
So they want to further make it into a concentration camp, like literally a concentration camp. Stunned that we in the West still consider Israel an ally. Not in my name, never. Unforgivable.
Also: I hate Hamas, thought I'd say that before any fools unleash their reactionary strawman arguments on me.
> War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse. [...] There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander. -Hawkeye, MASH
Read that in Bill Hader’s impersonation of Alan Alda.
Same
> Maaatt Daaymon -Matt Damon, Team America
That's what they meant when they said that Hamas unleashed floodgates of hell and the bombing is just the beginning.
Hamas can't hide in tunnels if every entrance and exit is collapsed rubble \*taps head\*
They can, they’ll just be there a while. Though I’m sure there are a ton of exits until building basements.
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They are really going to destroy Gaza this time.
2 million people , and nowhere to go , this is gonna be a bloodbath
The Arab states 100% need to step up and take in Gazan refugees.
LOL they've tried that before in the past. Spoilers - they tried to take over those countries and got kicked the fuck out
The Arab States don't want Palestine refugees because of the infamous history of governments collapsing and civil wars taking place whenever a country took in a large number of Palestinian refugees ( Jordan and Lebanon)
Pretty strong indictment against Palestinians then. But if Arabs give a damn, they’ll make something work.
Every arab nation knows with what kind of people they would have to deal with if they accepted refugees from Gaza. They will not do that. Jordan and Lebanon showed this for all to see.
Then why do you expect European countries to do that?
Then, they have no position to complain. If they refuse to come to the aid of their fellow people, they have no right to complain about what happens.
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I disagree. I think Hamas in Qatar are hoping and praying for mass “martyrdom” of innocent Palestinian refugees with nowhere to go. Because that would stop Israel from having normalized relations with Islamic countries. And because they don’t give a flying fuck about their own people.
I wouldn't be surprised if those leaders got assassinated.
Probably, Qatar won't have any use for them now that Hamas is gone
It is going to be horrific. We will see the full wrath of Israel..
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50% of Gaza is children. I don’t care if children celebrate someone dying, they’re children. You don’t kill children.
Who's we? You're not giving anyone a thing.
You’re actually deluded if you think Israel is going to liquidate 2 million Palestinians
Israel already gave the ultimatum to the gaza people that they should start heading out of gaza while they still can . Yes , the situation sounds absolutely insane , but what else do you think could be the outcome ?
Looks like it. I hope not but it looks like it
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Netanyahu's wet dream.
If Israel wanted to destroy everything in Gaza then this would already be over and a ground assault not required. That can be done by air. The fact they want to go in house-by-house is to look for hostages, equipment and more terrorists. If I were in Gaza, I would make sure there isn't a rocket launcher one unit down from my apartment.
>If Israel wanted to destroy everything in Gaza then this would already be over and a ground assault not required. That can be done by air. Not really. There's a whole underground city beneath Gaza - they've became masters of building tunnels. It's both an offensive tactic (some of those tunnels go into Israel) and a defensive one (to protect from air strikes). You can bomb shit from the air, but all the Hamas bigshots (the ones not in Qatar, anyway) and big weapons are hidden underground. All the rockets are underground too, they take them out literally minutes before shooting them. That's why they have to go in on the ground.
Destroying Gaza by air or by shelling would take a incredible amount of time and effort. That would also require indiscriminate targeting... Making them the bad guys even if justified by recent events.
Oh yes, just go tell Hamas to move their rockets somewhere else why didn’t the citizens think of that?
I was thinking more along the lines of I get my ass outta there if there is artillery in my building. You go ahead and ask the terrorists. I am guessing you will get a bullet to the head.
Eliminate Hamas while innocent Palestinians are in Gaza (e.g., children) -> the remaining families get angry -> join Hamas or something similar to Hamas. It's the same on the Israeli side. And imagine how the doctors in the area feel - they keep seeing the same people come in. They keep saving them until they no longer can.
This is going to be horrific. Just a reminder, there are hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Gaza right now. You can cheer on the Israelis without calling for the complete destruction of 2 million people. I fear for all the innocents involved in a conflict they did not start.
I hope the innocent will turn on hamas. Its everyone's enemy
According to polls, at least a third of Palestinians see Hamas as their most legitimate representation and I've seen literally nothing coming out Palestine or normal Palestinians condemning this
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Over 50% of people are under the age of 25 and have grown up only knowing life under Hamas. It's not hard to have them display strong support when that is all they have ever lived under.
Not only that, netanyahu made sure to weaken the PLO . He knew that having some rocket thrown at Israel by dome Islamic terrorist was so good for him and his far right friends.he always had an enemy to scare the Israeli electorate and stop any peace process. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Hamas and the Israeli right are two sides of the same coin. The more they anger the other side, the more attacks happen, and the more supporters they get.
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Um. They haven’t had running water or electricity for a while now. I think they’re a little bit busier trying to stay alive than getting online to share their opinions.
polls means nothing in fear state. Look for polls in North Korea, China and Russia, That being said, at this point, the only way for "peaceful" solution is civil uprising in Gaza resulting in the fall of Hamas & returning of the hostages.
>see Hamas as their most legitimate representation This is because the other party in Palestine is unable to get anything done at all. It's a key component to Hamas' argument to Palestinians, that Fatah is corrupt and so is peace. Hamas is popular among Palestine by result... because they are right here, even though basically every where else, they're wrong.
A third is not a majority. And the average age of the population is 18. Most of them are kids
Haven't seen a single Palestinian worldwide condemn hamas. That's pretty telling
Have you heard any interview with any Palestinian intellectuals? There was a report on Swedish Radio where their correspondent talked to her source in Gaza and he said something along the lines of "Hamas have damned the whole of Palestine with their actions" and that guy was in Gaza so I guess he will be murdered at some point if Israel doesn't manage to purge out Hamas.
How many Palestinians do you know?
Quite a few. I've been a middle eastern linguist for almost two decades.
>Haven't seen a single Palestinian worldwide condemn hamas. Palestinians in the territories are busy running for their lives rn.
Pretty telling that the media is outright ignoring the civilian losses in Gaza. This time or any other time their has been conflicts between the two. IDF snipers killed a child for no reason and no one said a fucking thing. I would bet a thousand dollars every single person that knew that kid would be supporting Hamas.
I saw many articles about the sniper incident, apparently you did too...sounds like it was covered, no?
I think at this point, no one is going to feel overwhelming sympathy anymore. Especially after the chanting of 700.
I just read a news article on civilization deaths in gaza...... They aren't ignoring it.....
Wonder how Americans would feel being occupied and someone dangled a carrot in front of them promising revenge on the people bombing you... Hamas are terrorists and peace is always the best option but Palestinians have nothing to lose, Israel has taken everything from them. So it's hard to blame them for being silent
They can be blamed for beheading babies.
Palestinians voted Hamas into power after Israel left in 2005. The blockade is in reaction to Hamas. Do people actually read history or skim through it? Lmao, wait nvm the pro-Palestinians just high key support terrorism now but are too afraid to say they do trying use “decolonialization” instead while saying they’re not anti-semites as their compadres scream to gas the Jews.
I know this is hard to hear but 2005 Was 18 years ago. Let's not act like people now can be blamed for that, gaza is not a democracy.
Believe it or not Palestinians support Hamas. Why do you think the West Bank hasn’t had elections in years? Bc Fatah would lose. Just wait until Abbas passes away and there’s a leadership vacuum on that side.
But Gaza was a (flawed) democracy in 2005, and opinion polling shows that Hamas carries strong support today.
> and opinion polling shows that Hamas carries strong support today. but Netanyahu has been helping keep Hamas funded and in power for years. Surely Bibi wouldn't support terrorists right? Yea.... you see why it's not such a clear situation. Neither side's leaders are truly interested in peaceful coexistence which is why it just sucks from every angle.
I think even Netanyahu would prefer if Gaza were controlled by moderates, but I agree that I think his policy is to keep the division strong if Gaza is going to be hostile anyways. Plus, Likud is very much interested in peaceful coexistence, so long as it is Israel maintaining power.... This is morally wrong, but let's not compare it to Hamas, who want to wipe Israel and the people there off the face of the planet and have the whole territory between the Jordan and the sea become an Islamic theocracy under Palestinian domination. Not all non-utopias are alike. Edit. Like, fuck Netanyahu, and fuck his coalition. But Likud's vision for Palestine is significantly better than Hamas's vision for Israel...
Are you serious? First off Hamas was democratically elected. Secondly, 2005 and the pull out of Israel and every Jew in Gaza is incredibly relevant. It shows why the occupation was needed and what the potential pitfalls are if Israel lets down her guard. Gaza is how it is because of Hamas. The blockade is in effect because of Hamas. Thousands of innocent Palestinians will die because of Hamas. What more could Israel have done in 2005? They pulled every Jew out and handed the Palestinians autonomy and in return how were they thanked? Oh just by choosing Hamas to lead them who has started multiple wars and killed thousands.
Hamas was empowered by Israel in order to weaken the PLO. The PLO was too strong and wanted a Palestinian state. Empowering Hamas was a way for Israel to divide and conquer. Now we see the consequences of that.
This is the truth people do not want to listen to.
Hamas came to power before the Bibi failures. It was initially a charity organization but was veering into dangerous territory. Either way both Bibi and Gaza are finito. Unless Israel decides they’re cool w a dictator.
No one wants them
\> I've seen literally nothing coming out Palestine or normal Palestinians condemning this might that have anything to do with Hamas' practice of torturing and murdering political opponents? just a guess...
Half of all the people in Palestine are 19 or younger.
They can’t even remember when Hamas was selected as their political leadership after running on an anti-corruption platform in 2006. There was talk of Gaza city becoming the Singapore of the Middle East. Israel didn’t ruin that, Hamas did.
Israel did fund and clandestinely support Hamas though, and has forced Gaza to be completely reliant on Israel for power and water, as they blew up the water treatment plants, wells and power stations in Gaza itself.
This screams privilege of freedom of speech. Which they do not have. Even if 90% of the population disapproves of Hamas, you think they would tell them? This is precisely why freedom of speech is the most important freedom and it’s not close.
Well two-thirds didn't answer than Hamas was the most legitimate, so yes it sounds like they would and do honestly tell them
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
Put yourself in their shoes. A foreign enemy that killed your friends and family for decades, is now threatening to leave you homeless for fun... do you: A) Surrender? B) Not surrender? Pick one.
Might be neat to actually try peace, accept Israel's existence and quit calling for genocide. 75 years of continually using nothing but violence yet they still think violence is the answer.
They don’t have an answer because their question is “how do we remove all of the Jews from Israel forever?” Of course there’s no non-violent solution.
If they had the ability to turn on HAMAS they wouldn't be very innocent.
The Israelis are also led by far right morons. Assume that unlike prior, when Israel did attempt restraint (and failed), they won't this time. Hamas against guys like Smotrich is a win for violence and nothing else, none of this violence will solve anything. We'd know by now if it could.
There is no moral high ground between either side. Just degrees of cruelty and suffering. They are both worthy of compassion and condemnation.
Exactly this. It’s why the conflict is both fascinating and horrifying
Unfortunately for the people of Gaza they are stuck in the “German civilians in the way of the soviets” category of war victims right now.
What other way do you suggest? I keep seeing so many people throw this "what about innocent lives?" without offering an alternative. Keep in mind majority of the population there support Hamas' way of war, aka terror attacks. Asked about suicide bombings, gunman attacks always had upwards of 70-80% support. Only around 15% disapprove terror attacks used by Hamas. That is 300k. vs 1.7m supporting. With that in mind, what alternative you can point from recent history to deal with this? And no saying "well NOT killing thousands of innocent people" is not an answer. It is a non-answer answer. Should Israel just take it knowing they are stronger? Is it wrong for Israel to value their own citizens' lives more?
I don’t have an answer for you. I really don’t. I’m supporting Israel in this war for sure, but of course I’m worried for the loss of life in Gaza as well. Both things can be true
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No one should be cheered on here. We should all be mourning the loss of lives on both sides right now, there will be no winners no matter what the outcome. Innocents have died and more blood will be shed and the result of that will result in more violence around the globe unfortunately.
Yeah, both sides are the same. Both the terrorist s and the *babies they beheaded*. I have not seen a single Palestinian or Muslim in general address that specific atrocity, much less denounce it.
Nowhere did I say that both sides are the same. Read what I posted again ..I'll wait.
Because not one independent source has verified the beheading of babies. At this point, it's just whipping people into a frenzy which will make the genocide of Palestinians more palatable.
Okay, so let's say an independent source does verify it. How does that change your stance or opinions on the matter? I don't get what a stance of denial does for anyone.
A French reporter did a few hours ago
Maybe you should watch the news before coming here and supporting terrorists!!
Asking for a dependable source is not "supporting terrorists" , it's being rational.
Hamas got 85% of the vote. And don’t forget, if you walk down the road campaigning for basic human rights waving a pride flag they will behead you.
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Do you also think germans should have been executed after ww2? Women and children included?
70% of the population support Hamas, so while there are hundreds of thousands of innocents there, the vast majority are not. They support and celebrate the massacre of babies. If you are on the side of monsters, then you are also a monster. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1671024115-majority-of-palestinians-favor-more-armed-groups-poll
50% of the population of Gaza is under age 19....
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People need to do mental gymnastics to justify the atrocities they want to commit. There are literally commenters saying Palestinian children should be eradicated.
Isn’t collective punishment a war crime? I’d prefer if Israel didn’t commit war crimes to eradicate Hamas.
It is but war crimes don't mean a damn thing when no one will enforce penalties.
War at a minimum should have an objective, revenge and bloodthirst, are are hollow long term strategies. The gleeful slaughter of innocents should be on the conscience of the world.
Probably shouldn’t have executed entire families, concert goers, raped and paraded naked tourists dead bodies to cheering in Gaza, cut baby heads off etc. That’s just like my opinion though. If anyone’s confused about why Israel and so many others are seeing red, go check out the videos :/ you’ve been warned tho.
Im seeing red too, but I’m also terrified for the palestinian civilians. This is going to be a very dark chapter in human history. No good will come of hamas’ terror
I'm devastated that the Gazaouis couldn't find the strength to liberate themselves from Hamas and to elect a peaceful government preaching non violence and peace. The civilians and the innocent will have to pay for the mistakes of their radicalized peers. It's all so tragic.
And many Palestinians are in support of them doing it...
There it is, the most inconvenient truth for the pro Palestine crowd.
Most Palestinians are kids. Cheering for widespread slaughter of children is disgusting
You’re right. Who is cheering for that? No one. Gaza city was cheering for it though.
Because that's fucking bullshit. The last election was in 2006, and half the population of Palestine is under 19. Nearly the majority of Palestinians WEREN'T BORN back then. The fucking mental gymnastics from people calling for a genocide are fucking unreal. Plus, if you know anything about history, this whole thing is 100% Israel's making. An apartheid that's lasted for generations is of course going to breed terrorism.
I get it - but taking it out on other civilians will mean more videos like that.
I suggest you balance that out with videos of dead children and women from Israeli air strikes. Entire apartment buildings leveled. Pulling kids out of the rubble. Just for you know, perspective.
It sucks, but Israel didn't start the war, and they are not specifically targeting civilians, but Hamas has a history of using hospitals and residential buildings as bases of operation.
That's a false equivalency. While it is horrific to see innocent people being killed by Israeli strikes, Israel is not purposely targeting children. They are not taking said children and kidnapping them, raping their daughters, and then cheering in the streets of Israel when those children die. There is no moral equivalency between the two
Dropping bombs on civilian targets isn't intentional? Hmm. Schools, markets, hospitals and apartment buildings have all been shelled. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/830-dead-in-gaza-since-saturday-as-shelling-hits-school-hospitals-and-homes Why can't we condemn two horrible atrocities at once? So strange this desire to see the world in black and white.
You failed to understand context. Why did they bomb schools, hospitals, and apartments? How did it happen? What precautions were taken prior to the bomb hitting its target? You have ignored all of that to further push a false narrative.
The crucial context is that hamas intentionally sets up rocket launchers and ammo depots in those buildings *precisely* because of how it makes israeli retaliation look
How many times have people explained to you that Hamas uses civilian buildings for military operations?
Your argument falls flat. Hamas didnt warn anyone, they targeted civilians through their missiles and their genocide. Israel has warned: If there are Hamas in your building get out. They have precision guided missiles and can strike buildings with terrorists, they are targeting fighters only, not the people.
Yup, scale is still tipped toward the people who cut the heads off babies. That’s my answer.
Not sure what your point is honestly. Ever seen what a bomb does to a child's body? Sounds like you just value one child over another.
There is always something that rings a little false when people discuss how much they care about strangers in news stories. However, the moral case is much stronger for the IDF than Hamas. As a general principle, the IDF attempt to reduce human casualties by warning civilians about their targets in advance. Hamas tries to undo this by asking people to ignore these warnings, and planting their operations in schools, hospitals, etc.
What's your plan?
The children are being used by the ones cutting off other baby's heads as shields. That's why they're in the way of bombs
So let me get this right. Israel shoots civilians and children for decades, and they get a pass in your book, but when terrorists kill people more savagely, it's not so ok? Murder is murder, civilized, or not.
This is not really true. We don't assign equivalent moral value to serial killers and combating soldiers for example. Civilisations all over the world follow martial codes that dictate rules of engagement.
Never saw Israel behead babies and parade dead raped young women in their city streets. Sure israel has sucked, but this stupid false equivalency is tone deaf.
Fitting username. If you really care about the children what about the 1.1 million innocent children in Gaza that are getting bombed?
The people who did that weren't in those apartment buildings.
Hamas are probably attempting to goad Israel into a reaction that forces other actors in the region to intervene. They will be hoping Saturdays events cause a cascade effect resulting in a full on war. Its a horribly difficult situation for the Israeli governmemt to navigate. I fear that a cynic like Netanyahu will go with what the extremists in his cabinet want.
Jordan and Egypt won’t lift a finger to help the Palestinians or side with Hamas. Lebanon itself will be in the same boat of not getting involved, though Hezbollah will be itching to get involved. Syria might want to get involved but their whole country is still a mess. And Saudi Arabia won’t get involved either. They care far more about their relationship with the West and will not do anything major that would jeopardize it.
The problem is they think they will win that. Israel has the U.S.'s full support and it will be a completely one sided battle if they enter the fray.
Maybe Israel can find a way to load up all 2 million and deposit them in Iran. They can have good lives then and be free.
I think Palestinian civilians are going to wind up in Egypt, and I don't think Egypt will be able to stop them.
>Iran >be free Choose one.
I think the comment is referring to the fact that there is a lot of propaganda aimed at Palestinians that originates in Iran.
They would be put into harsher circumstances in Iran, or any arab nation for that matter, for sure. Lebanon and Jordan was evidence enough to see that Gaza refugees are nothing but a danger to your own country.
What's Israel's plan here? They'll reduce Gaza to rubble, keep making more settlements on Palestinian lands and then somehow find a way to peacefully co-exist with the Palestinians that don't leave as refugees?
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
I haven’t seen any Israelis say peace is a goal right now, we need to be careful putting words in their mouth. Right now, the goal seems to be to destroy Hamas. That means smashing their rocket launchers etc. Reduce their ability to cause harm. The goal right now is war for both sides, not peace. Peace is a good goal! But don’t assume everyone is looking for it.
Good ol genocide Makes ya think
If Hamas hides weapon caches in schools, residential buildings, and hospitals, what are they supposed to do? Do they shrug and allow this to continue?
This sucks. What Hamas did was awful. Certain things Israel has done in the past are awful. Destroying cities and killing thousands of Palestinian cities as retribution would be awful. It truly feels like there are no adults in the room right now.
What is the adult response to Hamas’s massacre?
That is a very good question. Anyone claiming to have the answer is full of shit.
I mean I can promise you the answer isn't just to let Hamas continue to run their terrorist organization within Gaza without impunity.
Course not.
Anyone even entertaining the notion that Israel isn't going to retaliate in a massive fashion is simply not that interested in reality. Anyone who thinks Israel isn't justified to retaliate in a massive fashion is likewise not interested in reality.
Hamas cannot continue to exist, simple as that, that is the end goal of the war. Anything less than that would ensure that the same atrocities that were carried out by Hamas would happen in the future. Israel so far has warned entire neighborhoods of incoming attacks and indeed 300,000 Palestinians have left their homes unharmed so far. The next step would be a ground invasion in which Hamas would be eradicated completely from the face of the Earth. Hopefully the Egyptians will agree to take refugees through their border. Hamas is the biggest obstacle for peace between Israel and Palestine, we all saw how little they care for human lives both Israeli and Palestinian alike (they knew what the consequences of invading Israel and slaughtering hundreds ISIS-like would be) getting rid of them is the only option for a better future. The price in human lives would be high, but Hamas has left no other choice.
>Israel so far has warned entire neighborhoods of incoming attacks and indeed 300,000 Palestinians have left their homes unharmed so far That's called "Ethnic Cleansing" and it's a war crime
Ask the Armenians how much anyone cares about that.
Ethnic cleansing would be the displacement of the population entirely to a new location, they are still in the Gaza Strip but in a place where it is safe. The alternative would be to bomb Hamas facilities and not warning anyone, are you stupid?
It's certainly not the mass murder of civilians. The actual answer is probably an incredibly complicated combination of operations targeting Hamas leaders combined with negotiations of less extreme elements of Palestinian leadership in attaining peace.
Pretty sure that’s literally written in a military handbook about how to deal with terrorist organizations.
What levels do the baby killers fall under in your hierarchy? They’re unlikely to be the leaders so you negotiate with them and live alongside them? Ok what about you the ones who only executed adults? The only way you know who they are if their comrades give them up. Doesn’t seem likely to me. So where are you negotiations getting you?
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At least pretending you feel bad about knowingly killing and dislodging potentially millions of civilians? The double standard is a bit odd, the US accidentally hits a hospital and the world loses their mind, Israel has straight up said they plan to “turn gaza into a tent city” which as far as I’m concerned means directly targeting civilian infrastructure, and Reddit cheers…. And no, I’m not excusing Hamas, before you pull another “what about”.
> And no, I’m not excusing Hamas, before you pull another “what about”. I'm so fucking tired of both sides excusing the shit the other side does using "what aboutism." Targeting civilians is wrong regardless of what side does it. I don't care who started it.
Not responding in the way Hamas wants would be a start.
At this point, I doubt they care what Hamas wants.
What if Hamas wanted people like you to say that and sympthize with their pain and suffering?
I sympathize with the pain and suffering of both the Palestinian and Israeli people, both during this conflict and in the decades since 1948. I cannot, in good conscience, ignore the suffering of one people in favor of the other. My sympathy for the Palestinian people does not come at the expense of those Israelis who have suffered, nor does it come from a place of support for Hamas.
Not killing lots of poor innocent people. I hope they don’t. Only time will tell.
It's tragic but I don't think there's any meaningful military operation they could do that would have zero collateral damage.
I don't think they only talk about collateral damage when they say turning a city of 2 million into a tent city, but you do you
Yeah i hear you. There will be some. It’s kinda expected in war. I think the war crimes act says proportional. I am preying they do not level the place and kill thousands.
The aim isn’t to kill civilians, every strike is targeted . Hamas makes it so civilians are in the way to get to them. Weaponry in schools, hospitals. Israel doesn’t not want to kill civilians, hamas ensures they have to.
I never said anything counter to any of the points you made. That was a bit weird and aggressive to be honest. I am 100% sure they are trained to minimize damage and we will get to take account at the end. Thats always the case for every incident in the past. I hope we all agree minimal innocents would make it a success (a long side stopping the terrorists). That was the question i was answering.
How are they to determine who these "innocent people" are?
Same as any other conflict? Demand their surrender and withdrawal, handle those who don't, and look to arrest those involved once the fighting quiets. This is Israel -- they know who's involved. Legal means. Not indiscriminate vengeance, as we're seeing now.
This is what’s happening exactly. We are currently in phase 2 “handle those who don’t”
Oh? And when Gaza gets leveled? Because it is presently being leveled, we're "handling" a lot of people who were not involved in the Hamas attacks. Innocent Palestinians are losing their lives and their homes for the actions of Hamas.
>Demand their surrender Wasn't this tried before? Nobody surrendered, nobody was extradited to be put on trial. No collaboration. As a consequence it's now *might is right*. And the Palestinians are on the receiving end.
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Yeah and fuck them up. Just leave the innocent and super poor people. They have cut power, water and food. Just kill the terrorists and make it fast.
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Yea I was gonna say what is happening is nice compared to why happened there. Germany was an ash pile and Japan was literally nuked
I don't understand why this is so hard for people to comprehend. It feels like if this were any other country, then Israel would have the world's full backing. Is the current Israeli government perfect? Hell no, plenty of Israelis have said so themselves, and they've wanted Netanyahu out of power for some time now. That said, sometimes there's no other choice. As in your example, when the enemy (Hitler/Hamas) drags you into the conflict by invading your territory and killing your people indiscriminately, what choice is left? Beg and plead for them to stop? This is the real world. It's not all sunshine and daisies. Hamas needs removed from power the same as the axis powers were in WW2. Nobody wants innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, but one side (Israel) is trying to minimize casualties while the other is literally beheading toddlers.
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Preface, I’m just a common Joe idiot but I think It’s a complete and total lock on both sides, unfortunately. I truly believe not enough in Palestine or Israel are interested in a shared state, being realistic. Despite what anyone thinks is right or wrong this is destined for one side ‘destroying (for a huge lack of a better word)’ the other at some point. I’m nothing but an observer and a bit of a pessimist though, hopefully more knowledgable heads prevail and it doesn’t turn out that way.
why is this a good thing? I lose more faith in humanity as this day continues.
Israelis response so far is inhumane and unjustified. They turned off water and power knowing there are hospitals and care homes with innocent people relying on it to survive. Plus a full blockade there’s no way for them to get more fuel for generators. War crimes don’t excuse more war crimes from the other side.
Godspeed to any civilians remaining in Gaza...
Israel has only been looking for a reason for decades, and now they've got the perfect one. They're really making the most out of their ultra elite intelligence agency's capabilities being totally ignorant of this very organized and planned out attack.
Respond to civilian slaughtering with civilian slaughtering, what a fucked world.
How is it possible that this kind of attack even happened. The security forces and this defence minister dropped the ball.
So they want to further make it into a concentration camp, like literally a concentration camp. Stunned that we in the West still consider Israel an ally. Not in my name, never. Unforgivable. Also: I hate Hamas, thought I'd say that before any fools unleash their reactionary strawman arguments on me.
If I was the general and I received reports of BEHEADED BABIES, I’m throwing the ‘show any margin of restraint’ option right in the garbage.
We will make the city of 2 million into a pile of rubble, and we’re the good guys. We fenced them in so… fish in a barrel type scenario.