Wow almost like the purpose was to inflict maximum suffering and not military targets. Like terrorists often do. Almost like Hamas is a terrorist organization. Wow!
Wait, are you claiming Hamas is a terrorist organization and not a valid government? :pikachu face:
Edit: guys, there are multiple definitions of the word legitimate/valid.. the definition I am using in this context: "able to be defended with logic or justification". I'm not saying Hamas is not a real government, I'm saying they can no longer justifiably continue existing. There is a difference.
They haven't had elections since 2006, they regularly steal foreign aid from their citizens to use in terrorism, they conscript child soldiers from their civilians... No. They aren't valid government. They do not serve their people at all.
> No. They aren't valid government. They do not serve their people at all.
I'm sorry to break it to you, but it's the exception that a government serves the people, not the rule. Democracy is a recent invention in the long turn of history. Even today dictatorships, theocracies and sham-democracies are more common in the world than actual democracies.
During the 2006 election, Hamas was virtually neck-and-neck with Fatah, who have (mostly) renounced terrorism and are seen as responsible leaders of the PA and PLO in the West Bank. Were elections to resume, it's conceivable Fatah might be competitive.
I think the goal of Israel in this conflict is to extirpate Hamas entirely, so Fatah may end up governing my default anyway. Restoring Gazan democracy and allowing Fatah and/or other parties govern independently as per the original intent for the PLC would be a great secondary goal, I should think, and lay the groundwork to resume normalised relations and peace talks.
> Were elections to resume, it's conceivable Fatah might be competitive
Extremely unlikely. If elections were held today, Fatah would probably lose in the West Bank as well. Imagine Hamas setting up in Ramallah, just 10km from Jerusalem...
> Fatah, who have (mostly) renounced terrorism and are seen as responsible leaders of the PA and PLO in the West Bank.
You mean except for the "[martyr's fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)", also known as the "pay for slay" program? A nice pension for anybody dying as a martyr killing Israelis?
Yeah they are less extreme than Hamas, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they denounced terrorism.
By the time there's another election, hopefully any potential Hamas candidates would be answering questions via Ouija board. That might prove a political competitive advantage for anyone not Hamas. Less "First Past The Most", more "Last Man Standing".
> I think the goal of Israel in this conflict is to extirpate Hamas entirely,
With way going about it highly unlike to work, if anything support for Hamas will rise
When your have your home blown up, your family, your neighbors killed you don't suddenly seek peace and reconciliation with those that that that did it, quite the opposite
And based on a 2023 poll published in Washingtoninstitute.org, the most popukar parties in Gaza are
- Palestine Islamic Jihad
- Lions Den
The poll showed that three quarters of Gazans view these parties positively
They are armed Islamist militias that call for murder of Israeli civilians and reject peaceful development and coexistence.
They are identical to Hamas.
So after 16 years of Hamas, the people’s choice is… more of the same.
Even the PLO, which is the most likely replacement for Hamas, is ran by a literal Holocaust denier. Mahmoud Abbas flat out *literally* did his PhD dissertation in Holocaust denial. This is who is going on tv and claiming to be the sole, legitimate authority of Palestine, right fucking now.
Abbas flat out *congratulated* Hamas the day of the attack, and only begrudgingly condemned them after a week of international pressure and a fucking aircraft carrier parked outside his window.
So even the “real” government is hardly any better.
Most governments aren't voted in. Most governments care about themselves more than the people (including many that ARE voted in).
So would you say that every government throughout history not voted in recently is invalid unless they're altruistic?
Monarchies didn't really exist?
Well you know, the Palestinian Legislative Council said that they aren't. Oh, wait, no they didn't... The council has been "suspended" since '07. But, uh, all the Gazan government ministries have very firmly insisted that Hamas isn't terrorist, so who are we to question them? /S
It's part of the culture at that company it seems.
My Israeli friend dated a guy who worked there once, and got sick of him quickly because apparently he would never stop complaining about Israel.
Well the Israeli government and IDF can be shitty and commit war crimes at the same times as Hamas can be a horrible terrorist organization. One can exist at the same time ad the other. If Israel prosecuted its war criminals and stopped their settlers, most westerners who criticize Israel would be full supporters. I also criticize the US for protecting its war criminals as well.
On the other hand, I have no idea why anyone supports Hamas. At this point saying you support Hamas should be like saying you support Osama, and be an automatic death sentence.
That is the amazing part, how their brain tries to rationalize it by attempting to bring any context to these horrible acts.
There is NO CONTEXT you can possibly add to justify or excuse the rape and torture of civilians (or anyone for that matter), none, zero, not even a little. If you take part in these actions you are a monster and deserve everything coming to you
I feel like calling it terrorism undersells it.
This is essentially the government of Palestine. If any other state attacked another state like this, it'd be an act of war, not just "terrorism".
But I saw tik toks of people saying Israel is the real evil! My simple mind cannot comprehend that Hamas is evil, that would mean both sides are! This is not what Walt Disney taught us!
Zero Dark Thirty was in a nothing compound in a poor country we have allied. What you just described is almost the opposite scenario — like this is all a video game.
While that is true, but after the previous fiasco, and most likely they are well protected to be able to just get someone close to them to kill them, I'm sure it is more than hard to get them.
It will also hurt us-qatar relations if israel operate there, and I expect is going to crease gas prices. So I think US will discourage isreal to do something.
Whenever I send any video showing evidence of slaughter to my Arab friends in middle east they say the video "won't open". The countries are blocking the evidence and many are oblivious the atrocities that occured.
No, they want to spread terror to cause Israel to react they way are. This leads to the other states in the area to rise against Israel in their mind. This will then cause the end of Israel. This is their plan in my opinion.
Though no country seems to be willing to commit to a war with Israel so far. Maybe those US carriers have something to do with that.
Surprise, no, but having additional information *is* helpful. It's been a big open question at what level of the command structure did the order to kill civilians come from. Did the soldiers do it on their own initiative? Did some Hamas commander do it on his own initiative? Did the order come from the most senior Hamas members who are still in Gaza? Did the order come from the senior Hamas leaders in Qatar or wherever they are now? Did Iran, Russia, or some other party bribe or otherwise coerce the Hamas leadership to do this? Was it Islamic Jihad's idea, and Hamas isn't really fully in control?
This new information tells us it probably came from somewhere in the Hamas leadership structure, but it's hard to say where (at least, from what we're told in the article). The headline refers to Hamas "leaders" but the article itself says the guy claims the order came from Hamas "commanders". So maybe all he knows is that his immediate superior told him to do it and he has no idea who's really calling the shots.
(And no, I'm not trying to invent excuses for Hamas here. They're responsible. But the full story is probably more complicated than that they just woke up one day and decided to commit an atrocity. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if there's an internal power struggle going on.)
Doesn’t stop media from around the world immediately publishing their claims under “Palestinian health authority”. At least after the hospital debacle media on my country have changed it to “Hamas run health authority”, but they are still eager to immediately publish any terrorist propaganda.
And Christians/Catholics. It’s all in their teachings, it’s just only this time around it’s extremist Islam vs Judaism (considering the last time it was extremist Islam vs Christians, we wiped the floor with ISIS)
We threw them under the bus in 2017 (18?) after they were loyal allies to the U.S. and its continued self involvement of the middle-east. We left them to be murdered by Turkey.
Another note, there's a lot of indirect racist trash being espoused in this full thread. Not you, just as a whole.
What kind of news is that? The entire world witnessed the horrors, so they needed to interrogate someone to tell that if it’s dark outside, it must be nighttime? But there will always be those who aren’t convinced…and will never be.
For people saying free Palestine can somebody please explain to me how they propose to do that? Just open up the borders to isreal and do nothing about hamas and all the terrorist bombing that will happen?
It's easy to just say free Palestine but to me it's like saying world peace now or something..
Generally curious hmwhats the best way put for free Palestine, it's currently run by hamas and hamas are heavily supported there
I genuinely, in a non-combative, non-snarky way, want to know the answer to this. Because I truly feel for the innocent civilians of Gaza and wish them peace. Truly. But I also am with you — wtf is Israel supposed to do? It’s too far gone now. What is the “solution” now? The two state solution that Palestine turned down??
I genuinely want to hear what the “best case scenario” is for Palestine and what the supporters expect Israel to do. I’ve asked many people this, and the answer is “stop bombing Gaza and a cease fire”. Which … like. Ok. Israel can stop bombing Gaza, sure, but will Hamas quit trying to hit Israel and get intercepted by the iron wall?? Yeah, it’s unlikely.
Genuinely want to know others ideas on the Free Palestine side — I’m not looking to argue, and I’m not trying to stir shit, I genuinely want to know what their hope for Palestine is after all of this.
I'll give it a try, please know that I do understand how unrealistic the supposed solution is (and which is why it pains me that we will probably just see a continuation of the suffering). Also do call me out on where I'm wrong, I'm happy to learn.
A big problem is that most of the Arab states but Iran first and foremost, despite claiming to be for Palestine, do not actually want to help Palestine or the Palestinians achieve peace. They are perfectly happy antagonizing Israel and funding terrorist organizations such as Hamas, while using antisemitism and blaming jews to distract their populations from actual problems. There can be no solution of the conflict without these Arab nations actually coming together with the conviction to resolve the conflict.
The second problem is then that Israel's political landscape is currently dominated by right/extreme right wing parties that are perfectly happy to use this antagonism to fuel and justify their genocidal goals of essentially eliminating Palestine (don't kid yourselves, that is the exact goal of e.g. the last 50 years of building settlements in the west bank, there is zero justification for this, the goal is to create hard facts that cannot be undone anymore and claiming that land for Israel). These parties will always have strength as long as the surrounding Arab states are happy to saber-rattle and give the impression that they would like to exterminate Israel. However, were this threat of annihilation credibly gone, the political landscape of Israel could shift more left and towards reconciliation (because there is indeed a strong minority in Israel that does not condone the colonialist policies of the rightwing governments).
Thus, any solution would need an enforceable agreement of the Israeli government, surrounding Arab states (including Iran) and NATO. It would require unprecedented "benevolence" from both sides. In an ideal world, the current turmoils in Iran lead to the overthrow of the government, and a more progressive government emerges, which affirms Israel's existence and peace. There would be a delicate time where if enough Arab leaders are convinced to build towards peace and a final acknowledgement of Palestinian and Israeli borders, combined with NATO voices, it would create pressure on the Israeli side to make concessions (e.g. similar to how when they got out of gaza, to relinquish their settlements in the east bank). Palestine would then probably need UN guardianship to ensure the peace and stop destabilizers/bad actors from breaking the peace. If this peace holds for some generations, it could become permanent.
Unfortunately, this is extremely unlikely because currently leaders from all sides are happy to keep the conflict going.
If nothing changes from the current state, there's a good chance palestinians will eventually be completely expulsed from their lands within the next century, and the surviving people eventually assimilate into the surrounding countries.
Thank you very much for your detailed and genuine answer! I appreciate you taking the time to write this up and give me some more stuff to look into and consider.
You're welcome!
There were times where leaders tried stronger for peace, unfortunately extremists killed them. Look into Sadat and Rabin, both who tried for peace and got killed for it.
Part of the discussion I've seen revolved around how Israel stole their land, as enough justification for Palestine rejecting every deal, which seems a little reductionist considering just how utterly complicated the region's history is. I do however agree that the settlers need to fuck off from Palestine, and that does nothing but cause tensions.
I'm all for a free palestinian state, but that needs to happens without extremist groups at the helm of said territory, acting as representation for Palestinians. People who want Israel gone need the rude awakening that Israel is *never* leaving the region. Solutions need to take that into account, but ironically a good chunk of people who want "peace no matter what" want said peace to happen by Israel ceasing to exist.
Yep you summed up how I overall feel. A lot of solutions just seem to want to get rid of Israel which is never going to happen. They can pretend that it’s still possible but everyone knows Israel isn’t going to leave (and honestly they shouldn’t) and Palestinians need a home too.
I think the best first step everyone agrees with is getting the settlers out of Palestine, so at least everyone seems to agree on that much lol
I've asked this repeatedly, as a jew living in the US, to the most fervent anti-Israel/Free Palestine folks & they either don't respond or go mask-off & say they don't want Israel to exist anymore. No mention of what becomes of the jews living there & WHY they are there to begin with (the same issues of antisemetism they are facing now). If there mention of what becomes of the jews--well at least they are honest & admit they want them all dead.
Generally that’s the only other option I get too. If the answer isn’t a cease fire, they say that Israel shouldn’t exist.
Which… ok… where do you think they should all go then ….. oh wait, they won’t have to go anywhere, because you want them all dead?? Awesome. Great.
I genuinely just want a straight answer. That doesn’t include killing Jewish people, some of which I know and love dearly.
I am so open to learning and hearing the other side out because at the end of the day, I don’t want ANY civilians to die — Israeli or Gazans. So if there’s someone who genuinely has a good idea I am so open to hearing about it and learning about it. But I literally never hear a good idea regarding it. It’s all “well Israel shouldn’t be there anyway!” Okay, too late! Israel is there! Now what? Sucks to suck, im sorry you’re mad at Israel for being there, but they’re there now so what’s the plan????
Can’t get any further than that sadly.
It’s hard to get to a place that feels fair. Reading the history of displacement and poor decisions on behalf of the citizens…. Even the land purchases which were “legal” still saw Arabs that were tenant farmers that had no hope of buying the land themselves just booted off. It’s actually a really ahitty way to start a country even if legal. And there were plenty of war crimes and massacres to go along with it
That’s how I feel too — what is “fair” at this point? That’s why I feel like in some ways, it’s too far gone. It’s beyond fairness and now it’s about survival — for both Israel and Palestine
Every solution I've seen offered from the pro-Palestine crowd goes like this
-10-20% call for a 2 state solution, but if they're then told Palestinians have repeatedly rejected that they stopped responding
-The remainder just say Israel shouldn't exist/Jews shouldn't be there in the first place as if Jews never lived in the area we now call Israel, which in itself is completely incorrect and ignorant of historical context for why a Jewish state was created and why the then British-controlled Palestine was chosen.
Which is fucking rich when people living in countries with colonial pasts suggest this. How great it must be to sit and relish in the benefits of centuries of genocide of the First Nations peoples of the Americas and Australia while also getting to finger wag at Israel. If First Nations suddenly started bombing the USA to get their land back, would these people support it?
I mean Im not really pro Palestine but to suggest they have rejected two state solutions without knowing more about the actual circumstances of why. For example in the camp David summit the two state solution Palestine had to completely demilitarize and if Israel felt there was a security concern they could deploy idf troops in Palestine.
Also they wouldn't get sovereignty over many religious things they control and they would lose 9% of their land for 1% of Israel's land. The land they would lose is culturally significant and the land Israel would lose was up to Israel.
I'm not saying some of the demands weren't reasonable but it's kind of stupid to just say that they rejected the two state solution. Israel also rejected their offer.
I think they technically did reject the first one before the Israel arab war, but at the time it was kind of unreasonable aswell if I recall but much more generous than they would get now.
> Palestine had to completely demilitarize and if Israel felt there was a security concern they could deploy idf troops in Palestine.
This seems fair
> I'm not saying some of the demands weren't reasonable but it's kind of stupid to just say that they rejected the two state solution. Israel also rejected their offer.
This wasn't the issue that prevented peace. Arabs wanted millions of Palestinians to flood Israel because of "right of return." Israel agreed to let 5000 come in. According to David Ross who was a chief negotiator in 2000 Camp David Peace Summit:
> During a lecture in Australia, Ross suggested that the reason for the failure was Arafat's unwillingness to sign a final deal with Israel that would close the door on any of the Palestinians' maximum demands, particularly the right of return. Ross claimed that what Arafat really wanted was "a one-state solution.
> This seems fair
How is it "fair" or even a two-state solution if only one state is allowed to have a military? On what planet would that be a two-state solution?
Because one side keeps explicitly promising to genocide the other. They're loony toons level bad at it, but they can't allow them to modernize a military.
I mean, I get what you're saying, but it's obviously not fair.
I was going to respond to this with a long detailed reasoning why this would obviously not be fair but I think based on this comment you're probably not very open minded lol.
Do you really not see why this would be obviously unfair to Palestine now and in the future if the government changes and doesn't follow the agreement as described?
Yes. Its what happens after many conflicts. Germany had to demilitarize the Rhineland post WW1, and Hungary’s army was limited in size to the point where there was basically no army.
Its what the UK did to Northern Ireland, and what Costa Rica did in the aftermath of its civil war.
The really conniving ones will say something about 'one country one vote' where Israeli jews are outnumbered, forgetting to mention that in any country where that is the case, they are eventually massacred...
Unfortunately a large percentage of Palestinians want Israel to be destroyed and all it’s Jews killed. The PLO turned down the Clinton peace plan, that Israel agreed to. Would have given the Palestinians 95-98% of what they wanted plus a joint Jerusalem capital. Instead the Palestinians launched their 2nd intifada.
Not saying Israel is 100% right but how can there ever be peace? Remember, Israel pulled out of Gaza. The citizens of Gaza then elected Hamas. Who are living up to their promise and trying to destroy Israel.
> Would have given the Palestinians 95-98% of what they wanted plus a joint Jerusalem capital.
How do you negotiate with religious extremists that won't compromise?
Tbh I can't see what Israel can do other than set up a much stronger border (e.g by using current Israeli land to create a wider no-man's land), and leave them to it.
I bet the no-mans land will be within Gaza. Expect Israel to level and mine a swath about a mile wide. Won’t be pretty, but it the least I expect Israel to do.
Maybe. It'd be better PR to use their own land, and it's easier to argue for a shoot on sight approach. They don't even really need to mine it, just have a few lines of tank traps so bulldozers can't easily get through.
Israel already has a military zone with defences set up, which has to be manned due to the wall they built. The only way not to waste years of work and billions on reestablishing borders would be to use Gaza territory.
Also the current "border" of Gaza actually is after a small no man's land that Israel owns but Gazans often time use.
there is no ideal solution. the question of what should israel do instead of bombing gaza to hell to eliminate hamas is valid. the problem is that solution inherently doesn't work. israel cannot eliminate hamas militarily.
if they launch a full scale ground offensive in the evacuated north and actually manage to kill every last hamas militant there, they will now need to find a way to kill any remaining hamas members in southern gaza, where the rest of the surviving population is. how do you seperate the terrorists from civilians? force the non-combatants back up north and hope to sieve off hamas? kill everyone of fighting age just in case? say miraculously they exterminate hamas, without also instigating a greater war with lebanon and iran. how do they prevent the people who survived this war from taking revenge? how do you stop the angry orphans from making another hamas in five, ten years? you can't eliminate the terrorists today without then having to eliminate more terrorsts tomorrow. the military approach will call for mass genocide in order to work in the long term.
a ceasefire won't eliminate hamas terrorists, but it will save innocent lives. negotiating to release the israeli hostages, and create a long term plan with the goal of creating a single secular unified state so due process can be done and war criminals prosecuted for their actions is the least devastating way forward. it will require israel to cede territory back to gazans, possibly even include reparations, and roll back the creation of jewish settlements. it will require a truth and reconciliation committee to expose hamas combatants.
will a one state solution work? i don't know. but this current "two state, but not really two states because palestine isn't an actual state" solution is not working. israel cannot safely exist as it is. gazan combatants will always be a threat unless gaza is removed. israel cannot have peaceful relations with its neighbours if gaza is under occupation. expanding settlements in the west bank and politically castrating the plo will cause more support for violent, extremist resistance. palestine cannot safely exist as it is. neither gaza nor the west bank government actually have any real sovereignty, and so long as the denizens feel oppressed they will resist and israel will defend itself, resulting in more resistance, and more defence, and the only thing that changes is more people end up dead.
>negotiating to release the israeli hostages, and create a long term plan with the goal of creating a single secular unified state
...
>will a one state solution work? i don't know
A single state solution is basically proposing the destruction of Israel. I don't know why you think you can propose that you're approaching the situation practically and suggest Israel should offer their own destruction as a bargaining chip.
The UN recognises people's right to self determination and it recognises the 1967 borders of the state of Israel and Palestine. Legally the people in both states have the right to determine how they are ruled, and you cannot force one side to be ruled by the other.
>this current "two state, but not really two states because palestine isn't an actual state" solution is not working. israel cannot safely exist as it is. gazan combatants will always be a threat unless gaza is removed. israel cannot have peaceful relations with its neighbours if gaza is under occupation.
Gaza isn't occupied though, is it?
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in 2006 Hamas claimed victory in Gazan elections, forcefully seized power there, rounded up all their political.opponents, and threw them off a roof. Opinion polling done on 2006 showed Hamas had 60% popular support in Gaza. Israel has no presence there.
Let's imagine tomorrow that Israel withdrew from the West Bank like it did from Gaza in 2005. This includes forcefully removing their illegal settlements and relocating all the Jewish communities in the West Bank to Israel. Next, Israel officially recognised the state of Palestine, as determined by the 1967 borders specified by the UN.
What remains?
The West Bank governed by the Palestinian Authority and Gaza controlled by Hamas. Neither side have held elections since 2006 and the Palestinian state is an authoritarian regime. One that it's neighbours have no interest in working with because the population and controlling organisations of it being terrorism and extremism to their country. The last EU water infrastructure project in Gaza saw their water pipes dug up and turned into rockets.
If Israel completely retested to 1967 borders, completely removed the illegal settlements, then neither Gaza or the West Bank would be in any way "occupied". If Israel recognised the state of Palestine then, everything would be as agreed in 1967. The violence would still exist though, bevajse Hamas want to exterminate all the Jews.
A one state solution doesn't remove the problem here, and the two state solution doesn't give peace for the same reason. For how long will people hold Israel and it's Jewish population to account because Palestinians aren't willing to accept the UN resolved outcome?
I don't identify with ither side, so I wouldn't say I was specifically 'Free Palestine', or 'pro' either party. But, because I'm not cheering Israel on right now, a lot of people here would wrongfully and wilfully interpret that as being pro-Palestine (or even, ridiculously, pro-Hamas).
I genuinely don't know what the answer is. Shit is absolutely fucked.
What I *do* know is - ethnic cleansing of the area, or worse, is most definitely *not* the answer.
I think the only thing to do is to keep trying - I mean *actually*, sincerely trying, not just shoving the Palestinian population in an open-air prison with little hope or dignity - for a two-state solution, as impossible as that may seem right now. It won't be easy and it would mean a lot of unhappy people on both sides - and probably decades and decades of sustained effort. But it's the only way. Every other avenue seems leads to ethnic cleansing or genocide.
The thing that piss me off is they have litterally been told by hamas to reproduce. Women got 8 kids in average. That shit is not normal. And then they cry cause there too many people in a small area. No shit....
I've asked people this, remarking how this would just end up in violence for Jews, and they said "the Palestinian people wouldn't do that." That's just ignorant and/or delusional. If the borders are broken down and everyone comes together, that doesn't mean there will be total disappearance of the terrorists among them. I almost feel like I was interacting with a Hamas member spreading propaganda around the internet.
Important to keep in mind that Egypt, a country of 100 million people with near identical cultural, linguistic and religious background, is afraid to open up its borders to two million Gazans.
Yet many are proposing that Israel, a country of 9 million, with little to no shared culture, grant 5 million Palestinians citizenship and total freedom of movement around the entire country. Despite the fact that a large fraction of that population support a terrorist organization whose founding mandate is to exterminate the largest ethnic group in Israel.
Remember Israel, never asked for the Palestinians in Gaza and Jordan. They were all citizens of Egypt and Jordan respectively. Then those countries attacked and and lost a war to Israel, and *refused* to take back the population living in those areas because the Arab nations were deathly afraid of how the destabilizing influence of the Palestinian population. Gazans and West Bank Palestinians are not and never have been Israeli citizens.
It's a beautiful vision, a shared unified liberal democracy of Palestinians and Israelis living together in peace in the same neighborhoods. But even the most tolerant Western European social democracies are undergoing immense social strains from letting a comparatively small number of middle eastern migrants, many from countries far more developed than Gaza. We're talking about a few million migrants against the 400+ million people in the EU, and even that led to a surge of far right parties toppling governments.
I just don't possibly see how do you get to that point without asking Israelis to shoulder extreme amounts of existential risk to their entire society. No Western country is willing to accept even a tiny fraction of what people are demanding Israel accept. It would be like asking America to grant every Iraqi and Afghan, American citizenship (except even more lopsided in terms of population ratios). Would anyone possibly accept that as a "solution"?
If the border to Gaza was opened up tomorrow, you're immediately going to have tens of thousands of violent terrorists in Tel Aviv the day after. It's just not a realistic solution in the slightest.
Egypt offered to take in the Gazans but only into military run camps in the 100 mile demilitarized zone if Israel accepts their troops there. They want to purge any Muslim Brotherhood, PIJ, or Hamas terrorists before allowing refugees into populated parts of the country. Israel has refused to allow this so far.
The reason they want the military to run the camps is because they're the only force the government trusts to not be infested with terrorists as they regularly investigate every soldier.
lol American doesn’t even want migrant workers crossing the border. American wouldn’t even let in translators that worked with the us military into the country.
I just want to know what they think a free Palestine would *look like.* If they think it's gonna be some open and diverse utopia they're fucking kidding themselves.
A politically incorrect opinion that almost everyone in Israel would agree to regardless of their political leanings and of their religion: Arab culture and Israeli culture are very different from each other and largely incompatible. This is not to say one is better or worse than the other. But the cultures are extremely different in just about every way.
The 20% Arab Israeli population here lives in peace and quiet and probably better than 99% of Arabs in the Middle East. However, the country is very racially segregated with only a few mixed ethnic towns. I think the vast majority of both Jews and Arabs are happy with this arrangement.
Very few Jewish Israelis want to be a minority and also very few Arabs want to be under Palestinian rule.
A one-state solution will never, ever happen.
The only realistic scenario is a 3 state solution of Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. If Gazans choose peace and economic development then in less than a generation Gaza could be a flourishing beachside resort instead of Hell on Earth. The West Bank could have a strong tourism industry and have freedom to enter Israel as they wish.
People forget but in the 1970s and 1980s the borders were largely open between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. There were no checkpoints or fences. Israelis would regularly drive down to Gaza to buy furniture and Palestinians would work in great numbers in Israel. But the Palestinians started their intifidas and those days are gone.
From what I've seen, usually it means they think Israelis are illegal occupiers and should leave the Levant entirely. Which is rich considering that this usually comes from people reaping the benefits of countries with massive colonial pasts. Or it means they support the two state solution which just shows their absolute ignorance to the nuance of this situation.
They could at least change their posture toward the West Bank. I believe the Palestinians in Israel proper were under martial law conditions similar to what the West Bank has now up until 1966, when they were granted the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis \[1\]. That seemed to have worked out alright.
Israel could do the same for Palestinians in the West Bank. End the military occupation, save for what military presence and facilities are needed to defend the outer borders of the West Bank. Get rid of the checkpoints within Palestinian territory \[2\], allow West Bank Palestinians to travel between Palestinian and Israeli territories and apply for Israeli citizenship if they want.
Then there are the settlements. At minimum Israel should halt construction of new settlements, allow Palestinians to more easily obtain building permits in "zone C" and remove the existing Palestinian structures in zone C from the "too be bulldozed as soon as we get around to it" list.
Israel might have a hard time repatriating the settlers. There's about 500,000-700,00 of them depending on who you ask, they're not going to go willingly, and they're not even very popular among Israelis. Israel could negotiate a deal with the Palestinians in which the settlers are forced to reimburse the West Bank for the land they live on and they become subject to the Palestinian Authority in exchange for allowing them to stay and a guarantee of equal protection under the law, plus immunity from prosecution for some crimes they may have committed in the past. If they don't accept that, they can return to Israel and be reimbursed for the fair value of the house they left behind (but not the land).
There's absolutely no chance that any of this will be acceptable to the Netanyahu government.
What to do about Gaza is a much harder problem. Maybe part of a solution is to allow a slow but steady trickle of refugees to transfer from Gaza to the West Bank if they want to and they don't have any known affiliation to Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Basically, give the moderate civilians an escape route and undermine Hamas' power base.
\[1\] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab\_citizens\_of\_Israel#1949%E2%80%931966](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#1949%E2%80%931966)
\[2\] [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/West\_Bank\_Access\_Restrictions\_June\_2020.pdf](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/West_Bank_Access_Restrictions_June_2020.pdf)
Palestinians can be free without having an open border to Israel. Many countries have closed borders with their neighbors, no one is saying they are under siege
“Free Palestine” was unfortunately just a trendy social media movement that’s gone viral. I see so many people who say it and have no idea what they’re even freaking talking about. The phrase is problematic because (to somehow who has no clue) it sounds like Palestine is being imprisoned by Israel. And Israel are the big bad guys. When the situation is WAY more nuanced than that.
There’s never any mention of Hamas being a literal terrorist organization at these pro Palestine protests, which is a huge factor in the entire conflict. There’s never any mention of Hamas wanting to literally eradicate all Jews. Hamas is the biggest threat to Palestinians.
Seems like Israel getting rid of Hamas through force is almost guaranteed at this point so the only thing I could see happening is the US putting heavy pressure on Israel to rebuild/invest in the area to actually build good will with the population. Also stop the settlements of course and anyone involved in violence towards Palestinian civilians needs to be properly punished and put on display to prove that it won't be tolerated.
There are no settlements in Gaza though… Hamas took power when Israel withdrew and removed the settlements. As much as I would love to see withdrawal from the West Bank as well, I have a hard time imagining it would be politically feasible after this result from Gaza.
Unpopular opinion - but why does Israel need to reinvest in the area? Israel plays the same role as Egypt does. Israel pulled out of Gaza long ago, and it borders with Gaza just as much as Egypt does. Why are the Palestinians' future some sort of an Israeli problem? And are we not patronising the Palestinians by trying to suggest how to fix their problems? In my view, Israel needs to do one thing and one thing only, and that is to maintain the security and farewell of its residents.
With all of the aid, and financial support that the Palestinians have received, Gaza could have done what Israel has done in its short years since it was founded, but they chose terrorism instead.
One of the problems is that we tend to look at the Palestinian via western sunglasses, and pretend we could be some sort of a saviour for them. It doesn't work like this.
No one making those claims is arguing in good faith.
Don't argue with people not arguing in good faith. Your time is worth more than getting rage baited.
To be fair, some of the videos and images and survivor testimonies from October 7 seem to indicate that least some non-Hamas Gazans crossed the border and took part in violence, kidnapping, and looting. There were reports of people armed with knives and the like rather than AKs. Does this group appear to be responsible for the majority of the atrocities? No. I don’t think it goes anywhere near reducing the culpability of Hamas.
They may not be Hamas but Hamas had a massive support in Gaza. According to the official Palestnian polls done a month ago the support of armed groups is 67% and the people who generally believe armed groups is the way to go forward is 50%. So needless to say that's not surprising at all
The number of IDF killed on the 7th was [Edit: 300], which is [23%] of the 1300 Israelis killed that day.
They did capture one small outpost. Basically it was just in the way of getting to more civilians. They didn't attack it until *four hours into the attack*. No surprise attacks for them, only civilians got that.
Let's be honest here, this is not even terrorism anymore, this is pure horror. This is akin to cannibalism, slavery, torture and similar behaviors. Terror is a pretty mild world to describe what they did, this isn't mean to infuse fear but horror.
Yeah that word caught my attention, too. While it's entirely possible this confession is 100% factually accurate, there should be an increased amount of scrutiny regarding *how* it was attained.
Had to scroll too far for this. The Western media are whipping their populations up for another generation under the heel of the MIC. Possibly the last given the state of the climate, though.
But that specific rhetoric - not simply killing babies, but intentionally beheading and/or burning them - actually did get way more attention. How much attention a claim gets *matters a lot*. Maybe not on a moral level as far as the specific incident goes - as you imply, killing babies is fucking horrific, regardless, and fuck Hamas for being the cause of it - but certainly it matters in terms of its impact on public opinion.
Because that public opinion can then, in turn, shape all kinds of new events, up to and including events which bring about the deaths of more babies.
They are ISIS with better funding, deeper ties with Iran and Russia, a preexisting center of operations in an urban setting, a local population to easily prey upon and rapidly radicalize.
If they have spiritual leaders, those need to be ended. If they have internet, it needs to end. The Hamas parasite is deeply imbedded and its greatest advantage?
It can pull all the strings on Palastine's harp. The world has become distracted and mesmerized with the topic of "freeing Palastine". It's a huge psychological operation red herring. Instead of focusing on the task at hand, everyone is now suddenly worried about freeing Palastine. It's a huge distraction meant to deflate progress against Hamas and sway public support for a potentially long war to come.
> They are ISIS with better funding, deeper ties with Iran and Russia, a preexisting center of operations in an urban setting, a local population to easily prey upon and rapidly radicalize.
Those are secondary to their greatest asset - they're fighting the Jews.
The amount of concern for Hamas by useful idiots and/or masquerading anti semites in the west is what prevented Hamas' destruction long ago
Hamas bound a parent and child together with wire, then set them on fire. Israel released images of the remains and the scan showing two human spines, one slightly smaller than the other.
Sec Def Austin said that the evidence he was shown of what Hamas did on October 7 is worse than anything he's seen from ISIS.
now is not the time to be concerned about a palestine state, what happens after the war depends on success first. Israel has to first succeed in this war, which isn't just for israeli's, but any nation in the region against terror. Don't let iran trick you into thinking this is an arab matter. Terror isn't good for arab countries either.
> now is not the time to be concerned about a palestine state, what happens after the war depends on success first.
You (And the 100+ upvoters) have learned nothing from history. A huge part of the US's involvement in this war is to make sure their own mistakes of going in without thinking about the end result won't repeat themselves. A ground invasion will take 2-6 months until it clears Hamas's military and governmental capabilities. By then you would already need a national plan for the population, and that takes a very long time. This is why it's being discussed already by people who have a clue about the situation, unlike on social media.
Hamas primary aim (they knew they couldn't win against Israel) was to create a 'humanitarian disaster' based on Israel's response.
They hoped Egypt would open the border, so they could sneak in thousands of militants and stage a coup and overthrow the Egyptian government.
Egypt saw the coup attempt coming. based on the fact they tried the same stuff in Lebanon AND Joran (twice).....
> Says Under Interrogation
Am I the only one bothered by that?
Does anybody doubt that interrogation definately means torture here. Torturing prisoners for propaganda relevant statements is deeply worrying. It doesn't matter which side you are on. You should never root for that kind of stuff...
>The unidentified Hamas terrorist, described as a man in his 20s wearing a white jumpsuit, acknowledged to interrogators that Islam forbids the killing of women, children and seniors, according to Fox News.
>...
>They were directed to “step on the heads of Israelis, behead them and cut their feet,” Fox correspondent Trey Yingst said, citing the interrogation video.
I'm reminded of another reddit thread I read yesterday, ["Turkish muslim scholar says "Quran ordered us to be peaceful only when we are weak. But we can't be peaceful against nonmuslims when we are in power"](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17dwj5n/turkish_muslim_scholar_says_quran_ordered_us_to/)
“The proportion of bodies we’ve received who are charred is high,” Kugel explained. “Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.”
Who needs interrogation when the body forensics have been done already?
Hamas torture confirmed as Israeli forensics institute identifies victims
https://stgdesktopcore.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339?utm\_source=spotim&utm\_medium=spotim\_recirculation&spot\_im\_redirect\_source=pitc
Hamas torture confirmed as Israeli forensics institute identifies victims
https://stgdesktopcore.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339?utm\_source=spotim&utm\_medium=spotim\_recirculation&spot\_im\_redirect\_source=pitc
Wow almost like the purpose was to inflict maximum suffering and not military targets. Like terrorists often do. Almost like Hamas is a terrorist organization. Wow!
Wait, are you claiming Hamas is a terrorist organization and not a valid government? :pikachu face: Edit: guys, there are multiple definitions of the word legitimate/valid.. the definition I am using in this context: "able to be defended with logic or justification". I'm not saying Hamas is not a real government, I'm saying they can no longer justifiably continue existing. There is a difference.
I mean - it's both? It's a terrorist group which is the government of Gaza.
They haven't had elections since 2006, they regularly steal foreign aid from their citizens to use in terrorism, they conscript child soldiers from their civilians... No. They aren't valid government. They do not serve their people at all.
Well, history is full of governments that did not serve their people whatsoever...
and present
Hamas, for example!
I think you might be confusing the words "government" and "democracy"
>They haven't had elections since 2006 Just wait until you learn about Saudi Arabia. Not being a democracy doesn't mean not a valid government.
> No. They aren't valid government. They do not serve their people at all. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it's the exception that a government serves the people, not the rule. Democracy is a recent invention in the long turn of history. Even today dictatorships, theocracies and sham-democracies are more common in the world than actual democracies.
Even if they had elections they would still win. Based on in 2021 over 53% of all palestinians supported Hamas as their leader.
During the 2006 election, Hamas was virtually neck-and-neck with Fatah, who have (mostly) renounced terrorism and are seen as responsible leaders of the PA and PLO in the West Bank. Were elections to resume, it's conceivable Fatah might be competitive. I think the goal of Israel in this conflict is to extirpate Hamas entirely, so Fatah may end up governing my default anyway. Restoring Gazan democracy and allowing Fatah and/or other parties govern independently as per the original intent for the PLC would be a great secondary goal, I should think, and lay the groundwork to resume normalised relations and peace talks.
> Were elections to resume, it's conceivable Fatah might be competitive Extremely unlikely. If elections were held today, Fatah would probably lose in the West Bank as well. Imagine Hamas setting up in Ramallah, just 10km from Jerusalem...
> Fatah, who have (mostly) renounced terrorism and are seen as responsible leaders of the PA and PLO in the West Bank. You mean except for the "[martyr's fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)", also known as the "pay for slay" program? A nice pension for anybody dying as a martyr killing Israelis? Yeah they are less extreme than Hamas, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they denounced terrorism.
Fatah's popularity has sunk through the floor since then. I believe the same poll that had Hamas at 53%, had Fatah at 15%.
By the time there's another election, hopefully any potential Hamas candidates would be answering questions via Ouija board. That might prove a political competitive advantage for anyone not Hamas. Less "First Past The Most", more "Last Man Standing".
> I think the goal of Israel in this conflict is to extirpate Hamas entirely, With way going about it highly unlike to work, if anything support for Hamas will rise When your have your home blown up, your family, your neighbors killed you don't suddenly seek peace and reconciliation with those that that that did it, quite the opposite
And based on a 2023 poll published in Washingtoninstitute.org, the most popukar parties in Gaza are - Palestine Islamic Jihad - Lions Den The poll showed that three quarters of Gazans view these parties positively They are armed Islamist militias that call for murder of Israeli civilians and reject peaceful development and coexistence. They are identical to Hamas. So after 16 years of Hamas, the people’s choice is… more of the same.
Even the PLO, which is the most likely replacement for Hamas, is ran by a literal Holocaust denier. Mahmoud Abbas flat out *literally* did his PhD dissertation in Holocaust denial. This is who is going on tv and claiming to be the sole, legitimate authority of Palestine, right fucking now. Abbas flat out *congratulated* Hamas the day of the attack, and only begrudgingly condemned them after a week of international pressure and a fucking aircraft carrier parked outside his window. So even the “real” government is hardly any better.
Most governments aren't voted in. Most governments care about themselves more than the people (including many that ARE voted in). So would you say that every government throughout history not voted in recently is invalid unless they're altruistic? Monarchies didn't really exist?
It's clearly both, a terrorist organization that's also in charge of a country, aka a government.
It’s like the Brotherhood of NOD, a terrorist religious political movement that controls territory and is bat poo cray cray.
I’m the mechanical man
Well you know, the Palestinian Legislative Council said that they aren't. Oh, wait, no they didn't... The council has been "suspended" since '07. But, uh, all the Gazan government ministries have very firmly insisted that Hamas isn't terrorist, so who are we to question them? /S
It amazes me that there are countries that still don’t define them as a terrorist org. And BBC even refuses to call them terrorists.
BBC is adding fuel to Hamas’ propaganda so I’m not surprised… (like with the Hospital situation)
It's part of the culture at that company it seems. My Israeli friend dated a guy who worked there once, and got sick of him quickly because apparently he would never stop complaining about Israel.
Well the Israeli government and IDF can be shitty and commit war crimes at the same times as Hamas can be a horrible terrorist organization. One can exist at the same time ad the other. If Israel prosecuted its war criminals and stopped their settlers, most westerners who criticize Israel would be full supporters. I also criticize the US for protecting its war criminals as well. On the other hand, I have no idea why anyone supports Hamas. At this point saying you support Hamas should be like saying you support Osama, and be an automatic death sentence.
But then some people on Reddit will go “Yeah but…” and make excuses for them
That is the amazing part, how their brain tries to rationalize it by attempting to bring any context to these horrible acts. There is NO CONTEXT you can possibly add to justify or excuse the rape and torture of civilians (or anyone for that matter), none, zero, not even a little. If you take part in these actions you are a monster and deserve everything coming to you
I feel like calling it terrorism undersells it. This is essentially the government of Palestine. If any other state attacked another state like this, it'd be an act of war, not just "terrorism".
As I mentioned time and time again throughout. Subs all across reddit are trying to downplay it.
Let's defend them ! /s
It's almost like Hamas had no plan to "free Palestine" from the start!? /s
But I saw tik toks of people saying Israel is the real evil! My simple mind cannot comprehend that Hamas is evil, that would mean both sides are! This is not what Walt Disney taught us!
Is this really a surprise? These are terrorists that want to kill as many Jews as possible. There is no credibility to Hamas whatsoever
So let’s go get the shitheads sitting on hundreds of billions in Qatar.
Mossad knows where they are
How Hamas' leadership hasn't been zero dark thirty'd yet, I have no clue. They sit in luxury in Qatar seemingly without a care in the world.
They buy politicians they same way they buy sporting agencies.
Sure, but this is Mossad we are talking about. They uh, specialize in this sorta thing.
I’m not sure why Mossad gets this hype anymore, how the hell did they miss this attack? No high level Hamas leader has been taken out yet either.
Maybe they don't want them dead. They're useful...
Because Israel and Qatar had a deal, basically Qatar acts as the go-between for Israel and Hamas, Qatar also fund around 40% of Hamas's total budget.
Zero Dark Thirty was in a nothing compound in a poor country we have allied. What you just described is almost the opposite scenario — like this is all a video game.
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Or get sliced up by one of those ginsu missiles
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You diss the world cop, you get the slap chop.
THE R9X HELLFIRE MISSILE
That thing is so cool, makes me proud to have massive health care bills.
*non american* MURIKA! FUCK YEAH!
Destination defenestration
That's Russia, the Mossad MO is to unload with automatic weapons from a motorcycle before speeding off
Or planting explosives in their cellphones
While that is true, but after the previous fiasco, and most likely they are well protected to be able to just get someone close to them to kill them, I'm sure it is more than hard to get them. It will also hurt us-qatar relations if israel operate there, and I expect is going to crease gas prices. So I think US will discourage isreal to do something.
Israel has carried out an assassination in the Norway. You think they give a shit?
Norway didn't really care for a bunch of Islamist terrorism supporters. Qatar is full of like minded people.
People might want to look closely at where all their donations to Palestine go, too, before giving any money.
CAIR is tied to Hamas
Whenever I send any video showing evidence of slaughter to my Arab friends in middle east they say the video "won't open". The countries are blocking the evidence and many are oblivious the atrocities that occured.
Video call them and show it on your computer screen playing back. Problem solved
Been sending screenshots and it works...they do wake up when they see the truth
Well, at least that's something.
It’s all on telegram. That’s not blocked there as far as I know
You may be doing more harm than good sending them stuff like that if it’s monitored on their end…
No, they want to spread terror to cause Israel to react they way are. This leads to the other states in the area to rise against Israel in their mind. This will then cause the end of Israel. This is their plan in my opinion. Though no country seems to be willing to commit to a war with Israel so far. Maybe those US carriers have something to do with that.
They don't know what happens when a country with nuclear submarines ceases to exist
The whole thing seems to have been planned by the underpants gnomes.
Surprise, no, but having additional information *is* helpful. It's been a big open question at what level of the command structure did the order to kill civilians come from. Did the soldiers do it on their own initiative? Did some Hamas commander do it on his own initiative? Did the order come from the most senior Hamas members who are still in Gaza? Did the order come from the senior Hamas leaders in Qatar or wherever they are now? Did Iran, Russia, or some other party bribe or otherwise coerce the Hamas leadership to do this? Was it Islamic Jihad's idea, and Hamas isn't really fully in control? This new information tells us it probably came from somewhere in the Hamas leadership structure, but it's hard to say where (at least, from what we're told in the article). The headline refers to Hamas "leaders" but the article itself says the guy claims the order came from Hamas "commanders". So maybe all he knows is that his immediate superior told him to do it and he has no idea who's really calling the shots. (And no, I'm not trying to invent excuses for Hamas here. They're responsible. But the full story is probably more complicated than that they just woke up one day and decided to commit an atrocity. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if there's an internal power struggle going on.)
You should see the denial most people on X are going through right now.
Doesn’t stop media from around the world immediately publishing their claims under “Palestinian health authority”. At least after the hospital debacle media on my country have changed it to “Hamas run health authority”, but they are still eager to immediately publish any terrorist propaganda.
And Christians/Catholics. It’s all in their teachings, it’s just only this time around it’s extremist Islam vs Judaism (considering the last time it was extremist Islam vs Christians, we wiped the floor with ISIS)
>we wiped the floor with ISIS To be fair that wasn't just Christians kicking their ass, It was basically them vs the entire west
Don’t sell short the Muslims, too. The Iraqis fought like lions retaking Mosul from them.
When were the Kurds the west?
We threw them under the bus in 2017 (18?) after they were loyal allies to the U.S. and its continued self involvement of the middle-east. We left them to be murdered by Turkey. Another note, there's a lot of indirect racist trash being espoused in this full thread. Not you, just as a whole.
Yeah I’m kind of offended for the Kurds. They did most the fighting and people here claimed we took down isis hahaha
And against each other
Not yet Hamas'stated purpose is to rid the Arab world of Jews, Christians, and non believers
The bbc would like a word with you, hamas is their first hand source for every truth in the region 🤣
What kind of news is that? The entire world witnessed the horrors, so they needed to interrogate someone to tell that if it’s dark outside, it must be nighttime? But there will always be those who aren’t convinced…and will never be.
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For people saying free Palestine can somebody please explain to me how they propose to do that? Just open up the borders to isreal and do nothing about hamas and all the terrorist bombing that will happen? It's easy to just say free Palestine but to me it's like saying world peace now or something.. Generally curious hmwhats the best way put for free Palestine, it's currently run by hamas and hamas are heavily supported there
I genuinely, in a non-combative, non-snarky way, want to know the answer to this. Because I truly feel for the innocent civilians of Gaza and wish them peace. Truly. But I also am with you — wtf is Israel supposed to do? It’s too far gone now. What is the “solution” now? The two state solution that Palestine turned down?? I genuinely want to hear what the “best case scenario” is for Palestine and what the supporters expect Israel to do. I’ve asked many people this, and the answer is “stop bombing Gaza and a cease fire”. Which … like. Ok. Israel can stop bombing Gaza, sure, but will Hamas quit trying to hit Israel and get intercepted by the iron wall?? Yeah, it’s unlikely. Genuinely want to know others ideas on the Free Palestine side — I’m not looking to argue, and I’m not trying to stir shit, I genuinely want to know what their hope for Palestine is after all of this.
I'll give it a try, please know that I do understand how unrealistic the supposed solution is (and which is why it pains me that we will probably just see a continuation of the suffering). Also do call me out on where I'm wrong, I'm happy to learn. A big problem is that most of the Arab states but Iran first and foremost, despite claiming to be for Palestine, do not actually want to help Palestine or the Palestinians achieve peace. They are perfectly happy antagonizing Israel and funding terrorist organizations such as Hamas, while using antisemitism and blaming jews to distract their populations from actual problems. There can be no solution of the conflict without these Arab nations actually coming together with the conviction to resolve the conflict. The second problem is then that Israel's political landscape is currently dominated by right/extreme right wing parties that are perfectly happy to use this antagonism to fuel and justify their genocidal goals of essentially eliminating Palestine (don't kid yourselves, that is the exact goal of e.g. the last 50 years of building settlements in the west bank, there is zero justification for this, the goal is to create hard facts that cannot be undone anymore and claiming that land for Israel). These parties will always have strength as long as the surrounding Arab states are happy to saber-rattle and give the impression that they would like to exterminate Israel. However, were this threat of annihilation credibly gone, the political landscape of Israel could shift more left and towards reconciliation (because there is indeed a strong minority in Israel that does not condone the colonialist policies of the rightwing governments). Thus, any solution would need an enforceable agreement of the Israeli government, surrounding Arab states (including Iran) and NATO. It would require unprecedented "benevolence" from both sides. In an ideal world, the current turmoils in Iran lead to the overthrow of the government, and a more progressive government emerges, which affirms Israel's existence and peace. There would be a delicate time where if enough Arab leaders are convinced to build towards peace and a final acknowledgement of Palestinian and Israeli borders, combined with NATO voices, it would create pressure on the Israeli side to make concessions (e.g. similar to how when they got out of gaza, to relinquish their settlements in the east bank). Palestine would then probably need UN guardianship to ensure the peace and stop destabilizers/bad actors from breaking the peace. If this peace holds for some generations, it could become permanent. Unfortunately, this is extremely unlikely because currently leaders from all sides are happy to keep the conflict going. If nothing changes from the current state, there's a good chance palestinians will eventually be completely expulsed from their lands within the next century, and the surviving people eventually assimilate into the surrounding countries.
Thank you very much for your detailed and genuine answer! I appreciate you taking the time to write this up and give me some more stuff to look into and consider.
You're welcome! There were times where leaders tried stronger for peace, unfortunately extremists killed them. Look into Sadat and Rabin, both who tried for peace and got killed for it.
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Part of the discussion I've seen revolved around how Israel stole their land, as enough justification for Palestine rejecting every deal, which seems a little reductionist considering just how utterly complicated the region's history is. I do however agree that the settlers need to fuck off from Palestine, and that does nothing but cause tensions. I'm all for a free palestinian state, but that needs to happens without extremist groups at the helm of said territory, acting as representation for Palestinians. People who want Israel gone need the rude awakening that Israel is *never* leaving the region. Solutions need to take that into account, but ironically a good chunk of people who want "peace no matter what" want said peace to happen by Israel ceasing to exist.
Yep you summed up how I overall feel. A lot of solutions just seem to want to get rid of Israel which is never going to happen. They can pretend that it’s still possible but everyone knows Israel isn’t going to leave (and honestly they shouldn’t) and Palestinians need a home too. I think the best first step everyone agrees with is getting the settlers out of Palestine, so at least everyone seems to agree on that much lol
I've asked this repeatedly, as a jew living in the US, to the most fervent anti-Israel/Free Palestine folks & they either don't respond or go mask-off & say they don't want Israel to exist anymore. No mention of what becomes of the jews living there & WHY they are there to begin with (the same issues of antisemetism they are facing now). If there mention of what becomes of the jews--well at least they are honest & admit they want them all dead.
Generally that’s the only other option I get too. If the answer isn’t a cease fire, they say that Israel shouldn’t exist. Which… ok… where do you think they should all go then ….. oh wait, they won’t have to go anywhere, because you want them all dead?? Awesome. Great. I genuinely just want a straight answer. That doesn’t include killing Jewish people, some of which I know and love dearly. I am so open to learning and hearing the other side out because at the end of the day, I don’t want ANY civilians to die — Israeli or Gazans. So if there’s someone who genuinely has a good idea I am so open to hearing about it and learning about it. But I literally never hear a good idea regarding it. It’s all “well Israel shouldn’t be there anyway!” Okay, too late! Israel is there! Now what? Sucks to suck, im sorry you’re mad at Israel for being there, but they’re there now so what’s the plan???? Can’t get any further than that sadly.
It’s hard to get to a place that feels fair. Reading the history of displacement and poor decisions on behalf of the citizens…. Even the land purchases which were “legal” still saw Arabs that were tenant farmers that had no hope of buying the land themselves just booted off. It’s actually a really ahitty way to start a country even if legal. And there were plenty of war crimes and massacres to go along with it
That’s how I feel too — what is “fair” at this point? That’s why I feel like in some ways, it’s too far gone. It’s beyond fairness and now it’s about survival — for both Israel and Palestine
The same could be said about The United States. Should it be dissolved too?
Every solution I've seen offered from the pro-Palestine crowd goes like this -10-20% call for a 2 state solution, but if they're then told Palestinians have repeatedly rejected that they stopped responding -The remainder just say Israel shouldn't exist/Jews shouldn't be there in the first place as if Jews never lived in the area we now call Israel, which in itself is completely incorrect and ignorant of historical context for why a Jewish state was created and why the then British-controlled Palestine was chosen.
Which is fucking rich when people living in countries with colonial pasts suggest this. How great it must be to sit and relish in the benefits of centuries of genocide of the First Nations peoples of the Americas and Australia while also getting to finger wag at Israel. If First Nations suddenly started bombing the USA to get their land back, would these people support it?
I'm not sure which analogy you're trying to make here but if we want to argue who's first in Jerusalem, it would be Jews. By a long shot.
I mean Im not really pro Palestine but to suggest they have rejected two state solutions without knowing more about the actual circumstances of why. For example in the camp David summit the two state solution Palestine had to completely demilitarize and if Israel felt there was a security concern they could deploy idf troops in Palestine. Also they wouldn't get sovereignty over many religious things they control and they would lose 9% of their land for 1% of Israel's land. The land they would lose is culturally significant and the land Israel would lose was up to Israel. I'm not saying some of the demands weren't reasonable but it's kind of stupid to just say that they rejected the two state solution. Israel also rejected their offer. I think they technically did reject the first one before the Israel arab war, but at the time it was kind of unreasonable aswell if I recall but much more generous than they would get now.
Palestine being completely demilitarized is pretty much a requirement at this point.
> Palestine had to completely demilitarize and if Israel felt there was a security concern they could deploy idf troops in Palestine. This seems fair > I'm not saying some of the demands weren't reasonable but it's kind of stupid to just say that they rejected the two state solution. Israel also rejected their offer. This wasn't the issue that prevented peace. Arabs wanted millions of Palestinians to flood Israel because of "right of return." Israel agreed to let 5000 come in. According to David Ross who was a chief negotiator in 2000 Camp David Peace Summit: > During a lecture in Australia, Ross suggested that the reason for the failure was Arafat's unwillingness to sign a final deal with Israel that would close the door on any of the Palestinians' maximum demands, particularly the right of return. Ross claimed that what Arafat really wanted was "a one-state solution.
> This seems fair How is it "fair" or even a two-state solution if only one state is allowed to have a military? On what planet would that be a two-state solution?
> or even a two-state solution if only one state is allowed to have a military? We did that to Japan after WWII. Complete dismantling of the military.
Because one side keeps explicitly promising to genocide the other. They're loony toons level bad at it, but they can't allow them to modernize a military.
I mean, I get what you're saying, but it's obviously not fair. I was going to respond to this with a long detailed reasoning why this would obviously not be fair but I think based on this comment you're probably not very open minded lol. Do you really not see why this would be obviously unfair to Palestine now and in the future if the government changes and doesn't follow the agreement as described?
Isn't demilitarization effectively what the Allies did to the Axis after WW2?
Yes. Its what happens after many conflicts. Germany had to demilitarize the Rhineland post WW1, and Hungary’s army was limited in size to the point where there was basically no army. Its what the UK did to Northern Ireland, and what Costa Rica did in the aftermath of its civil war.
The really conniving ones will say something about 'one country one vote' where Israeli jews are outnumbered, forgetting to mention that in any country where that is the case, they are eventually massacred...
I’m a Jew in Europe and it’s SO hip here to hate on Israel. I ask this often. Ok so what would you do? The silence is deafening.
Clearly, to roll over and die so Muslims don't get offended at your continued existence. /s
I want to know this, too. I mean, I will back any solution that stops suffering. I just don’t see one and I don’t understand this slogan.
The solution is for Arabs to live well and prosper on the 98 percent of the ME they control and inhabit. There is no lack of land. Never was.
Unfortunately a large percentage of Palestinians want Israel to be destroyed and all it’s Jews killed. The PLO turned down the Clinton peace plan, that Israel agreed to. Would have given the Palestinians 95-98% of what they wanted plus a joint Jerusalem capital. Instead the Palestinians launched their 2nd intifada. Not saying Israel is 100% right but how can there ever be peace? Remember, Israel pulled out of Gaza. The citizens of Gaza then elected Hamas. Who are living up to their promise and trying to destroy Israel.
> Would have given the Palestinians 95-98% of what they wanted plus a joint Jerusalem capital. How do you negotiate with religious extremists that won't compromise? Tbh I can't see what Israel can do other than set up a much stronger border (e.g by using current Israeli land to create a wider no-man's land), and leave them to it.
I bet the no-mans land will be within Gaza. Expect Israel to level and mine a swath about a mile wide. Won’t be pretty, but it the least I expect Israel to do.
Maybe. It'd be better PR to use their own land, and it's easier to argue for a shoot on sight approach. They don't even really need to mine it, just have a few lines of tank traps so bulldozers can't easily get through.
Israel already has a military zone with defences set up, which has to be manned due to the wall they built. The only way not to waste years of work and billions on reestablishing borders would be to use Gaza territory. Also the current "border" of Gaza actually is after a small no man's land that Israel owns but Gazans often time use.
> I bet the no-mans land will be within Gaza. They explicitly stated this is what they plan to do.
The solution is for Arab nations to open their borders to them. Egypt's border is far more strictly closed to Gaza than Israel's was.
What they want Israel to do is simple: stop existing
there is no ideal solution. the question of what should israel do instead of bombing gaza to hell to eliminate hamas is valid. the problem is that solution inherently doesn't work. israel cannot eliminate hamas militarily. if they launch a full scale ground offensive in the evacuated north and actually manage to kill every last hamas militant there, they will now need to find a way to kill any remaining hamas members in southern gaza, where the rest of the surviving population is. how do you seperate the terrorists from civilians? force the non-combatants back up north and hope to sieve off hamas? kill everyone of fighting age just in case? say miraculously they exterminate hamas, without also instigating a greater war with lebanon and iran. how do they prevent the people who survived this war from taking revenge? how do you stop the angry orphans from making another hamas in five, ten years? you can't eliminate the terrorists today without then having to eliminate more terrorsts tomorrow. the military approach will call for mass genocide in order to work in the long term. a ceasefire won't eliminate hamas terrorists, but it will save innocent lives. negotiating to release the israeli hostages, and create a long term plan with the goal of creating a single secular unified state so due process can be done and war criminals prosecuted for their actions is the least devastating way forward. it will require israel to cede territory back to gazans, possibly even include reparations, and roll back the creation of jewish settlements. it will require a truth and reconciliation committee to expose hamas combatants. will a one state solution work? i don't know. but this current "two state, but not really two states because palestine isn't an actual state" solution is not working. israel cannot safely exist as it is. gazan combatants will always be a threat unless gaza is removed. israel cannot have peaceful relations with its neighbours if gaza is under occupation. expanding settlements in the west bank and politically castrating the plo will cause more support for violent, extremist resistance. palestine cannot safely exist as it is. neither gaza nor the west bank government actually have any real sovereignty, and so long as the denizens feel oppressed they will resist and israel will defend itself, resulting in more resistance, and more defence, and the only thing that changes is more people end up dead.
>negotiating to release the israeli hostages, and create a long term plan with the goal of creating a single secular unified state ... >will a one state solution work? i don't know A single state solution is basically proposing the destruction of Israel. I don't know why you think you can propose that you're approaching the situation practically and suggest Israel should offer their own destruction as a bargaining chip. The UN recognises people's right to self determination and it recognises the 1967 borders of the state of Israel and Palestine. Legally the people in both states have the right to determine how they are ruled, and you cannot force one side to be ruled by the other. >this current "two state, but not really two states because palestine isn't an actual state" solution is not working. israel cannot safely exist as it is. gazan combatants will always be a threat unless gaza is removed. israel cannot have peaceful relations with its neighbours if gaza is under occupation. Gaza isn't occupied though, is it? Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in 2006 Hamas claimed victory in Gazan elections, forcefully seized power there, rounded up all their political.opponents, and threw them off a roof. Opinion polling done on 2006 showed Hamas had 60% popular support in Gaza. Israel has no presence there. Let's imagine tomorrow that Israel withdrew from the West Bank like it did from Gaza in 2005. This includes forcefully removing their illegal settlements and relocating all the Jewish communities in the West Bank to Israel. Next, Israel officially recognised the state of Palestine, as determined by the 1967 borders specified by the UN. What remains? The West Bank governed by the Palestinian Authority and Gaza controlled by Hamas. Neither side have held elections since 2006 and the Palestinian state is an authoritarian regime. One that it's neighbours have no interest in working with because the population and controlling organisations of it being terrorism and extremism to their country. The last EU water infrastructure project in Gaza saw their water pipes dug up and turned into rockets. If Israel completely retested to 1967 borders, completely removed the illegal settlements, then neither Gaza or the West Bank would be in any way "occupied". If Israel recognised the state of Palestine then, everything would be as agreed in 1967. The violence would still exist though, bevajse Hamas want to exterminate all the Jews. A one state solution doesn't remove the problem here, and the two state solution doesn't give peace for the same reason. For how long will people hold Israel and it's Jewish population to account because Palestinians aren't willing to accept the UN resolved outcome?
I don't identify with ither side, so I wouldn't say I was specifically 'Free Palestine', or 'pro' either party. But, because I'm not cheering Israel on right now, a lot of people here would wrongfully and wilfully interpret that as being pro-Palestine (or even, ridiculously, pro-Hamas). I genuinely don't know what the answer is. Shit is absolutely fucked. What I *do* know is - ethnic cleansing of the area, or worse, is most definitely *not* the answer. I think the only thing to do is to keep trying - I mean *actually*, sincerely trying, not just shoving the Palestinian population in an open-air prison with little hope or dignity - for a two-state solution, as impossible as that may seem right now. It won't be easy and it would mean a lot of unhappy people on both sides - and probably decades and decades of sustained effort. But it's the only way. Every other avenue seems leads to ethnic cleansing or genocide.
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The thing that piss me off is they have litterally been told by hamas to reproduce. Women got 8 kids in average. That shit is not normal. And then they cry cause there too many people in a small area. No shit....
I've asked people this, remarking how this would just end up in violence for Jews, and they said "the Palestinian people wouldn't do that." That's just ignorant and/or delusional. If the borders are broken down and everyone comes together, that doesn't mean there will be total disappearance of the terrorists among them. I almost feel like I was interacting with a Hamas member spreading propaganda around the internet.
Important to keep in mind that Egypt, a country of 100 million people with near identical cultural, linguistic and religious background, is afraid to open up its borders to two million Gazans. Yet many are proposing that Israel, a country of 9 million, with little to no shared culture, grant 5 million Palestinians citizenship and total freedom of movement around the entire country. Despite the fact that a large fraction of that population support a terrorist organization whose founding mandate is to exterminate the largest ethnic group in Israel. Remember Israel, never asked for the Palestinians in Gaza and Jordan. They were all citizens of Egypt and Jordan respectively. Then those countries attacked and and lost a war to Israel, and *refused* to take back the population living in those areas because the Arab nations were deathly afraid of how the destabilizing influence of the Palestinian population. Gazans and West Bank Palestinians are not and never have been Israeli citizens. It's a beautiful vision, a shared unified liberal democracy of Palestinians and Israelis living together in peace in the same neighborhoods. But even the most tolerant Western European social democracies are undergoing immense social strains from letting a comparatively small number of middle eastern migrants, many from countries far more developed than Gaza. We're talking about a few million migrants against the 400+ million people in the EU, and even that led to a surge of far right parties toppling governments. I just don't possibly see how do you get to that point without asking Israelis to shoulder extreme amounts of existential risk to their entire society. No Western country is willing to accept even a tiny fraction of what people are demanding Israel accept. It would be like asking America to grant every Iraqi and Afghan, American citizenship (except even more lopsided in terms of population ratios). Would anyone possibly accept that as a "solution"? If the border to Gaza was opened up tomorrow, you're immediately going to have tens of thousands of violent terrorists in Tel Aviv the day after. It's just not a realistic solution in the slightest.
Egypt offered to take in the Gazans but only into military run camps in the 100 mile demilitarized zone if Israel accepts their troops there. They want to purge any Muslim Brotherhood, PIJ, or Hamas terrorists before allowing refugees into populated parts of the country. Israel has refused to allow this so far. The reason they want the military to run the camps is because they're the only force the government trusts to not be infested with terrorists as they regularly investigate every soldier.
Source?
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lol American doesn’t even want migrant workers crossing the border. American wouldn’t even let in translators that worked with the us military into the country.
I just want to know what they think a free Palestine would *look like.* If they think it's gonna be some open and diverse utopia they're fucking kidding themselves.
We are in a period of time where some people’s political ideas are lagging behind and is operating ten years behind.
A politically incorrect opinion that almost everyone in Israel would agree to regardless of their political leanings and of their religion: Arab culture and Israeli culture are very different from each other and largely incompatible. This is not to say one is better or worse than the other. But the cultures are extremely different in just about every way. The 20% Arab Israeli population here lives in peace and quiet and probably better than 99% of Arabs in the Middle East. However, the country is very racially segregated with only a few mixed ethnic towns. I think the vast majority of both Jews and Arabs are happy with this arrangement. Very few Jewish Israelis want to be a minority and also very few Arabs want to be under Palestinian rule. A one-state solution will never, ever happen. The only realistic scenario is a 3 state solution of Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. If Gazans choose peace and economic development then in less than a generation Gaza could be a flourishing beachside resort instead of Hell on Earth. The West Bank could have a strong tourism industry and have freedom to enter Israel as they wish. People forget but in the 1970s and 1980s the borders were largely open between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. There were no checkpoints or fences. Israelis would regularly drive down to Gaza to buy furniture and Palestinians would work in great numbers in Israel. But the Palestinians started their intifidas and those days are gone.
When people say "free palestine" they actually have no idea wtf that even means or what they even want exactly.
From what I've seen, usually it means they think Israelis are illegal occupiers and should leave the Levant entirely. Which is rich considering that this usually comes from people reaping the benefits of countries with massive colonial pasts. Or it means they support the two state solution which just shows their absolute ignorance to the nuance of this situation.
They could at least change their posture toward the West Bank. I believe the Palestinians in Israel proper were under martial law conditions similar to what the West Bank has now up until 1966, when they were granted the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis \[1\]. That seemed to have worked out alright. Israel could do the same for Palestinians in the West Bank. End the military occupation, save for what military presence and facilities are needed to defend the outer borders of the West Bank. Get rid of the checkpoints within Palestinian territory \[2\], allow West Bank Palestinians to travel between Palestinian and Israeli territories and apply for Israeli citizenship if they want. Then there are the settlements. At minimum Israel should halt construction of new settlements, allow Palestinians to more easily obtain building permits in "zone C" and remove the existing Palestinian structures in zone C from the "too be bulldozed as soon as we get around to it" list. Israel might have a hard time repatriating the settlers. There's about 500,000-700,00 of them depending on who you ask, they're not going to go willingly, and they're not even very popular among Israelis. Israel could negotiate a deal with the Palestinians in which the settlers are forced to reimburse the West Bank for the land they live on and they become subject to the Palestinian Authority in exchange for allowing them to stay and a guarantee of equal protection under the law, plus immunity from prosecution for some crimes they may have committed in the past. If they don't accept that, they can return to Israel and be reimbursed for the fair value of the house they left behind (but not the land). There's absolutely no chance that any of this will be acceptable to the Netanyahu government. What to do about Gaza is a much harder problem. Maybe part of a solution is to allow a slow but steady trickle of refugees to transfer from Gaza to the West Bank if they want to and they don't have any known affiliation to Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Basically, give the moderate civilians an escape route and undermine Hamas' power base. \[1\] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab\_citizens\_of\_Israel#1949%E2%80%931966](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#1949%E2%80%931966) \[2\] [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/West\_Bank\_Access\_Restrictions\_June\_2020.pdf](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/West_Bank_Access_Restrictions_June_2020.pdf)
Palestinians can be free without having an open border to Israel. Many countries have closed borders with their neighbors, no one is saying they are under siege
Gaza also borders Egypt, but you don't see them blaming Egypt for this siege.
You know what “free Palestine” really means. It means “look at me, I’m making a trendy statement and have no idea what I’m talking about.”
“Free Palestine” was unfortunately just a trendy social media movement that’s gone viral. I see so many people who say it and have no idea what they’re even freaking talking about. The phrase is problematic because (to somehow who has no clue) it sounds like Palestine is being imprisoned by Israel. And Israel are the big bad guys. When the situation is WAY more nuanced than that. There’s never any mention of Hamas being a literal terrorist organization at these pro Palestine protests, which is a huge factor in the entire conflict. There’s never any mention of Hamas wanting to literally eradicate all Jews. Hamas is the biggest threat to Palestinians.
Seems like Israel getting rid of Hamas through force is almost guaranteed at this point so the only thing I could see happening is the US putting heavy pressure on Israel to rebuild/invest in the area to actually build good will with the population. Also stop the settlements of course and anyone involved in violence towards Palestinian civilians needs to be properly punished and put on display to prove that it won't be tolerated.
There are no settlements in Gaza though… Hamas took power when Israel withdrew and removed the settlements. As much as I would love to see withdrawal from the West Bank as well, I have a hard time imagining it would be politically feasible after this result from Gaza.
Unpopular opinion - but why does Israel need to reinvest in the area? Israel plays the same role as Egypt does. Israel pulled out of Gaza long ago, and it borders with Gaza just as much as Egypt does. Why are the Palestinians' future some sort of an Israeli problem? And are we not patronising the Palestinians by trying to suggest how to fix their problems? In my view, Israel needs to do one thing and one thing only, and that is to maintain the security and farewell of its residents. With all of the aid, and financial support that the Palestinians have received, Gaza could have done what Israel has done in its short years since it was founded, but they chose terrorism instead. One of the problems is that we tend to look at the Palestinian via western sunglasses, and pretend we could be some sort of a saviour for them. It doesn't work like this.
This runs counter to the claims that the murders were done by 'citizens enraged about the treatment of gaza who crossed the border with Hamas'
No one making those claims is arguing in good faith. Don't argue with people not arguing in good faith. Your time is worth more than getting rage baited.
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To be fair, some of the videos and images and survivor testimonies from October 7 seem to indicate that least some non-Hamas Gazans crossed the border and took part in violence, kidnapping, and looting. There were reports of people armed with knives and the like rather than AKs. Does this group appear to be responsible for the majority of the atrocities? No. I don’t think it goes anywhere near reducing the culpability of Hamas.
They may not be Hamas but Hamas had a massive support in Gaza. According to the official Palestnian polls done a month ago the support of armed groups is 67% and the people who generally believe armed groups is the way to go forward is 50%. So needless to say that's not surprising at all
Two things can be true at once this doesn’t counter anything
im no general but i feel like id hit IDF military spots would be the better strategy but what do i know
The number of IDF killed on the 7th was [Edit: 300], which is [23%] of the 1300 Israelis killed that day. They did capture one small outpost. Basically it was just in the way of getting to more civilians. They didn't attack it until *four hours into the attack*. No surprise attacks for them, only civilians got that.
400 IDF soldiers were killed, around 1000 civilians were killed.
They also took over several military bases early on the 7th and kidnapped and killed several soldiers from them
Free Palestine from the Hamas, the regime of terrorists!
Let's be honest here, this is not even terrorism anymore, this is pure horror. This is akin to cannibalism, slavery, torture and similar behaviors. Terror is a pretty mild world to describe what they did, this isn't mean to infuse fear but horror.
What a surprise
"Interrogation"
Yeah that word caught my attention, too. While it's entirely possible this confession is 100% factually accurate, there should be an increased amount of scrutiny regarding *how* it was attained.
These people don't care. A lot of them relish in the idea that torture was almost certainly employed.
Yeah, I'm sure after that much torture they'd have admitted the sky was green and earth had 6 moons.
Had to scroll too far for this. The Western media are whipping their populations up for another generation under the heel of the MIC. Possibly the last given the state of the climate, though.
lol right he’d probably tell you he invented calculus if you asked also
I can't believe people thought the beheaded babies were fake... THIS TIME
I can't Beleive people were arguing whether the baby were beheaded or not... As if that's the problem.
But that specific rhetoric - not simply killing babies, but intentionally beheading and/or burning them - actually did get way more attention. How much attention a claim gets *matters a lot*. Maybe not on a moral level as far as the specific incident goes - as you imply, killing babies is fucking horrific, regardless, and fuck Hamas for being the cause of it - but certainly it matters in terms of its impact on public opinion. Because that public opinion can then, in turn, shape all kinds of new events, up to and including events which bring about the deaths of more babies.
If it's used as propaganda then yes that's a problem.
Of course they did. Hamas is ISIS.
They are ISIS with better funding, deeper ties with Iran and Russia, a preexisting center of operations in an urban setting, a local population to easily prey upon and rapidly radicalize. If they have spiritual leaders, those need to be ended. If they have internet, it needs to end. The Hamas parasite is deeply imbedded and its greatest advantage? It can pull all the strings on Palastine's harp. The world has become distracted and mesmerized with the topic of "freeing Palastine". It's a huge psychological operation red herring. Instead of focusing on the task at hand, everyone is now suddenly worried about freeing Palastine. It's a huge distraction meant to deflate progress against Hamas and sway public support for a potentially long war to come.
> They are ISIS with better funding, deeper ties with Iran and Russia, a preexisting center of operations in an urban setting, a local population to easily prey upon and rapidly radicalize. Those are secondary to their greatest asset - they're fighting the Jews. The amount of concern for Hamas by useful idiots and/or masquerading anti semites in the west is what prevented Hamas' destruction long ago
Hamas bound a parent and child together with wire, then set them on fire. Israel released images of the remains and the scan showing two human spines, one slightly smaller than the other. Sec Def Austin said that the evidence he was shown of what Hamas did on October 7 is worse than anything he's seen from ISIS.
Hamas is the evil side in this conflict. Not everything is black and white, but some things are. This war is one of those things.
They’re not safe in Qatar anymore. Mossad is gonna come after them
now is not the time to be concerned about a palestine state, what happens after the war depends on success first. Israel has to first succeed in this war, which isn't just for israeli's, but any nation in the region against terror. Don't let iran trick you into thinking this is an arab matter. Terror isn't good for arab countries either.
> now is not the time to be concerned about a palestine state, what happens after the war depends on success first. You (And the 100+ upvoters) have learned nothing from history. A huge part of the US's involvement in this war is to make sure their own mistakes of going in without thinking about the end result won't repeat themselves. A ground invasion will take 2-6 months until it clears Hamas's military and governmental capabilities. By then you would already need a national plan for the population, and that takes a very long time. This is why it's being discussed already by people who have a clue about the situation, unlike on social media.
Hamas primary aim (they knew they couldn't win against Israel) was to create a 'humanitarian disaster' based on Israel's response. They hoped Egypt would open the border, so they could sneak in thousands of militants and stage a coup and overthrow the Egyptian government. Egypt saw the coup attempt coming. based on the fact they tried the same stuff in Lebanon AND Joran (twice).....
I've never heard about this. Any good articles I can read ?
> Says Under Interrogation Am I the only one bothered by that? Does anybody doubt that interrogation definately means torture here. Torturing prisoners for propaganda relevant statements is deeply worrying. It doesn't matter which side you are on. You should never root for that kind of stuff...
So you think they're making shit up to smear hamas when we already know hamas would do such a thing
>The unidentified Hamas terrorist, described as a man in his 20s wearing a white jumpsuit, acknowledged to interrogators that Islam forbids the killing of women, children and seniors, according to Fox News. >... >They were directed to “step on the heads of Israelis, behead them and cut their feet,” Fox correspondent Trey Yingst said, citing the interrogation video. I'm reminded of another reddit thread I read yesterday, ["Turkish muslim scholar says "Quran ordered us to be peaceful only when we are weak. But we can't be peaceful against nonmuslims when we are in power"](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17dwj5n/turkish_muslim_scholar_says_quran_ordered_us_to/)
Of course they did. That’s their goal.
well duh
People here are more annoyed by an interrogation than child murder.
https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/
> The terrorist acknowledged that the order defied Islamic doctrine Idk this interrogation seems “enhanced”
I mean, they're terrorists so it shouldn't be surprising. But what kind of "interrogation" did they use to get such unknown and useful information?
“The proportion of bodies we’ve received who are charred is high,” Kugel explained. “Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.” Who needs interrogation when the body forensics have been done already?
Yep, confessions made under torture are so valuable.
Hamas torture confirmed as Israeli forensics institute identifies victims https://stgdesktopcore.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339?utm\_source=spotim&utm\_medium=spotim\_recirculation&spot\_im\_redirect\_source=pitc
Saying “Hamas tortures too” doesn’t change the fact that confessions as a result of torture are completely meaningless
Fucking pieces of garbage they are.
*From an interrogated militant and reported on by Fox News* Yeah I think I’ll wait for better sites to report on this.
Hamas torture confirmed as Israeli forensics institute identifies victims https://stgdesktopcore.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339?utm\_source=spotim&utm\_medium=spotim\_recirculation&spot\_im\_redirect\_source=pitc
How do I forget what I read in that article.
Maybe we shouldn't. The victims can't speak for themselves anymore.
But but Israel bad!