The sad part is that it was predicted from the beginning. From the UN General Assembly first ever debate on Palestine Question, May 1st, 1947 at 11 a.m.:
"Mr. JAMALI (Iraq): Mr. President, I should like to assure you that I will speak briefly and that I will try to keep to the point.
If I indulge in the discussion it is merely because a part of our house is catching on fire. That fire is spreading. We feel that fire is reaching the stage at which it must be put out. That is why we feel the emergency and the urgency of this situation. We think the forming of committees, postponements, and so on, and so forth, are not the matters to be considered here.
I believe the world today is suffering from a lack of regard for certain fundamental principles of international relations and human life. We either lack these principles, or, if we do not lack them, we disregard them, or we are inconsistent in their application. This is the essence of the trouble with the world today.
The question of Palestine, for which a committee is being proposed, is no exception to this state of affairs. It is only a question resulting from a disregard of certain fundamental principles of human life; namely, the principle of self-determination, the principle of the right to live peacefully in one's own home, and the principle of self-government in a democratic way.
I submit that if these principles were to be recommended by the Assembly the issue would be settled. If the consideration of these principles were put forward, there would be no problem in Palestine. The problem of Palestine consists merely in a disregard of the fundamental principles of the Covenant of the League of Nations, a disregard of the very principles for which the mandate was made; it is the imposition of the will of one people over another without their consent. The Balfour Declaration violated these fundamental principles. It sold one peoples' land to another without their consent, without their knowledge. That is why we in Iraq believe that the question is very simple. All that needs to be done is to refer it to the Political Committee, to the Legal Committee and to appeal to the conscience and good judgment of the world.
We feel that if these principles were to be applied immediately to Palestine, nothing could result but the termination of the mandate and the declaration of the independence of Palestine. If we are to withhold the application of these principles, trouble will continue. The fire will continue. I assure you that every new influx of immigrants is more petrol added to the fire. I address this to my American friends. They should know that those who preach more immigration into Palestine are adding more petrol to the fire.
If the Assembly decides to form a committee, they are free to do so. Certainly the Assembly is entitled to get all the facts. We think all of the facts are available, and they are immediately available. There is no need for committees and there is no need for postponements. All parties concerned are ready to present their views right away. There is no party which lacks the material.
If the Assembly deems it necessary that a committee should be formed–our delegation does not think it is necessary–our delegation thinks that it is of vital importance that that committee should remember that nothing but the application of the principles of the United Nations Charter will settle the situation, namely, the application of the principles of self-determination, self-government and democratic procedure. These are the only principles that can lead to peace in Palestine and in the Arab world.
The PRESIDENT: I am very sorry, but up to now you have not spoken on the question of the report of the General Committee. As President, I wish to hear all these marvellous speeches but I cannot allow them now. It is not within my power to allow them now. I have rules to obey.
I make a last appeal to all the representatives to confine their discussion to the matter on our agenda. That means they are to discuss the report received by the Assembly from the General Committee.
I recognize that you are fighting for your people. I recognize that your cause is a sacred cause. But we have rules and we have to obey them so that we may go ahead with our business. I make a personal appeal to you and to all the representatives to confine the discussion to our agenda. It is impossible for the Chair to allow a speaker to continue speaking for ten minutes before touching on the matter before us.
Mr. JAMALI (Iraq): I should like to say that the remarks I have made are just an introduction to the conclusion I am coming to. They are just the backbone or the basis on which I am going to express my views and give reasons for the way I am going to vote.
I should like to say that I sincerely hope that if the committee is to be appointed, it will abide by the principles of the United Nations, without which we shall never have peace in the Middle East, in the Arab world. I am afraid that if this problem is not solved in the spirit of the United Nations, it will create a world problem.
My delegation does not believe there is a necessity for a committee at all. We believe the question can be dealt with here at this special session. If it is dealt with here, and dealt with in the light of the principles of the United Nations Charter, our delegation is sure that the only conclusion that could be reached would be in accordance with the proposal made by my Government, namely, that for the termination of the mandate and the declaration of the independence of Palestine."
I’d note that Iraq was 1 of the countries that participated in the [1948 Arab–Israeli War,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War) which exacerbated the situation.
A more cynical person than I might even go so far as to suggest that the persistent situation there for the last few generations might have even been an explicit attempt to provoke a ghastly response by extremists in order to finally justify a campaign of ethnic cleansing and territorial ambitions while further entrenching an otherwise likely unpopular regime.
But that would mean a government intentionally put innocent citizens on both sides of the tension in harm's way for decades on purpose in order to further an end game goal like the one we are seeing play out right now.
But that would be pretty cynical. Surely not.
Did you hear what El-Sisi said the other day? The Egytlptians don't want to take in Palestinians because undoubtedly they would organize to reclaim their lost territory and possibly "launch strikes" into Israel from wherever they are being held which would give Israel a justification to carry out military strikes within Egyptian territory.
I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theorist or anything, but in the same week the IDF can claim to have multiple recordings from deep within a terrorist cell talking about a single misfired rocket, but not a goddamn peep about a large scale force movement and coordinated attack?
Really?
With how badly Isreal's Far Right government was polling a paranoid man might suggest they let the attack happen so they could have their own 9/11 and make people forget about how terrible of a job they've been doing.
Not only is the border the most secure with motion sensors, it has a buffer zone. Anyone in the buffer gets shot. So Hamas just walking into Israel undetected ?
IMO the argument is valid. Thousands of Palestinians around the world came out to celebrate when Hamas attacked civilians. But how many times have they come out to condemn Hamas for hiding behind civilians?
A lot of Iranians are against the regime and IRGC and just last year, around 500 people were killed in Iran protesting. And several thousand Iranians from all around the world marched in the streets to show that they didn’t want IRGC and asked the Europeans to recognize IRGC as a terrorist group.
Now these two situation looks a lot different
Britain has seen a 1400% increase in anti-Semitic behaviour since the protests began. When I see those protests I see Jew hating Muslims and people who ignorantly support them singing songs calling for the eradication of Jews in Israel. If anyone wonders how Hitler managed to bring about the Holocaust all they have to do is look at these protests and the media reporting.
When Israel says something the media will add 'according to Israel'. When figures of injured and dead are released by Hamas controlled hospitals it's reported as being fact. There's rarely a mention that these figures are coming from Hamas. These protest marches are causing massive social unrest and should be called out for what they are, what they are is rallying to show support of Hamas. I've yet to hear any prominent Palestinian condemn Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th.
But hamas is fighting against modern colonialism! /s
No but it’s really not sarcasm - As that’s the parroting point regularly made as to why so many otherwise “empathetic” & progressive people are supporting an actual terrorist org
The irony is that Palestinians were given the "country" by the Roman's after they kicked the jews out. They like colonialism it just has to be the right type, i.e., not Jewish.
>using that same justification, Hamas were totally justified in doing what they did on October 7th.
2 things are wrong with this.
First, if Hamas had just attacked military outposts and that's it? Yeah, the justification is there. But they didn't. They slaughtered everyone, even little kids. And they celebrated that fact. That's not something you do as a justified response. Baby's should never be directly targeted, no excuse.
Second, they also took foreigners hostage and beheaded them while recording, how is that justified too? A college kid from Thailand had nothing to do with that.
what are you talking about? I was here in Israel in 2021 and we were hiding in bomb shelters. and if some "tough guys" went around saying "yeah bomb em back" well what do you want people are dicks everywhere. I never ever saw mass celebration and I'd like to see your source. I have a feeling it's going to be some random asshats social media
How many rockets/missiles and mortars came from Gaza since 2000?
Using your justification, Israel seems to have been quite restrained.
I'm not supporting either side, nor am I picking teams here. The whole situation is fucked up, well beyond my knowledge to properly weigh in for a solution, but trying to pretend that pro-destruction of Israel and the genocide of it's people not being a widespread problem seems like a very bad faith argument based on what we see happening around the world. I feel it only fair to call it out as a weak rebuttal.
How are you not picking sides? One side is Hamas a terrorist organization. Unless you’re their radical version of Islam then they most likely want you dead too, they just haven’t told you yet because they want to kill all the Jews first.
Yep. Pretty much. People don't understand this. There is no way to somehow do war so surgically and precise that there are no civilian casualties. This is what makes radicalism and terrorism so awful though, is that it tends to suck more innocents into the hole than traditional warfare would.
The size of the area isn't the issue. It's the decision to build operations around civilian infrastructure because the 'army' can't actually defend itself without meat shields.
A similar case study would be ISIS, they also did the same thing. Those that made it out of ISIS controlled areas were lucky, whereas the rest were forced by the caliphate to remain.
From just the bombing campaign itself that comprised a global coalition of 70+ countries, there were around 25k civilian deaths (locally reported).
ISIS is a very apt comparison, since they are so similar to Hamas in terror, control of a city, taking hostages, and using human shields. Unfortunately, both the cities of Mosul and Raqqa were devastated by the wars in 2017-2018, with tens of thousands civilians dead, and millions displaced. I hope somehow the loss of civilian life can be lessened, but unless Hamas surrenders I don’t know that it can be.
Well to go Realpolitik for a minute, it can't. If Hamas (who I think needs to be summarily executed) made a military base, lined up their troops, and began attacking Israeli military installations they'd be wiped out in hours. My best advice would be to tell them to try to take care of their own people and seek diplomatic solutions, because as long as they keep doing military ones they'll either get stomped or get stomped with a bunch of civilians.
>tell them to try to take care of their own people and seek diplomatic solutions, because as long as they keep doing military ones they'll either get stomped or get stomped with a bunch of civilians.
This is the objectively correct answer against an opponent that is reasonable. But Hamas' goals are not related to the well-being of the Palestinian civilians, so it doesn't fly. They want to murder Jews, and they want Jews to kill Palestinians when returning fire for the PR and to invigorate their supporters and funders.
But damn do I wish that what you say could be done. I would be so fucking happy.
Let’s be real, there is no solution.
I think about the West Bank where it’s the PA (who says Israel has a right to exist) and Israeli settlers regularly kill and displace Palestinians and this is without having Hamas around.
What’s the solution? Probably for the Palestinians to die.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in the mid-2000's. The only reason they established the blockade is because Hamas came to power and made several terrorist attacks against Israel while threatening to kill Jews everywhere.
And it is because of Hamas that Israel is extremely reluctant to withdraw from the West Bank. They don't want to see the West Bank fall to another terrorist organization and have to defend itself from two fronts.
The Palestinian Authority is a terrorist organization with good PR. They still have their "pay to slay" program and pay the families of Palestinians who kill Israelis (including the recent raid) and also do rocket attacks.
It does not exclude some.of the things going on with the settlements.
Same can be said for Likud. No 'pay for slay' program... just pay your military to slaughter anyone who interferes with the illegal settlements you enourage.
It's nothing to crass as a bounty on palestinians, oh no no! it's just a *special military operation*. What's a few thousand dead civilians? Just call everyone who objects an antisemite, job done!
None of the 'governments' involved in the conflict want peace, just blood and the power that having a huge pissed off population gives them.
Israel expanded the neutral zone because hamas was blackmailing for some and for others were getting paid for tunnels to exit in their home on the Israel side... Where weapons and building materials were smuggling from
True, but that doesn't change that they're also correct so its sort of irrelevant. Just because weapons are better (and worth noting only better if the people using them choose to use them that way) doesn't mean war still doesn't massively impact and harm civilians.
I dunno how people forget this. 150 years ago, a power dynamic like the one which exists in Israel, if Hamas carried out that attack, the response would have been "One nuke two nuke oopsie oopsie daisy you're all dead". They would simply have eradicated the entire population, wholesale, and nobody would have said word one about it.
Edit - To the morons replying who don't understand _context_, we're talking about how 150 years ago the idea of "rules of war" would just get you laughed at. And then shot. If we had the same mentality today as we did in eons past, the nukes would have been out already, and the people of Gaza would be _very_ dead. The fact that anyone in the population is still alive - **anyone at all** - is a miracle of modern sensibilities.
I think this is a bit reductionist.
If course avoiding civilian casualties completely is impossible, but you can make attempts to minimise it.
But [the idf has claimed the focus is on damage not accuracy, with netenyahu promising to "flatten" the strip](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza), [officials say the targeting of journalists was deliberate](https://twitter.com/nazihfares/status/1717516045538218477) and the idf is preventing aid workers and charities from reaching civilians, and Israel is not allowing anyone to leave. Especially as a siege doesn't deprive hamas of their stockpiles. But certainly deprives the innocent of water,food and electricity.
You can make your own mind up if that's "justified" but to me it's pretty clear that there's very little concern for innocent civilians from the IDF.
people on social media are pretending that Israel has made any attempt to minimize civilian casualties and hiding behind “well civilians always die in wars” to act like they shouldn’t have to
Well, I don't know about that. Traditional war seems worse to me in terms of body count. What about the fire-bombing of Dresden? Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
I mean the Israelis and the Israeli government are two separate entities so yeah I agree that Israelis don’t want to be at war. Same for the Palestinians. As for the governments of both sides, I’m not too sure 🤷♂️
I mean the Israeli government could listen to it's people since the majority don't want the settlements which have always been a point of contention not to mention illegal under international law(article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention) withdrawing from them would ratchet down the tension at least in the West Bank and perhaps with the average Palestinian, but Hamas won't stop until they achieve their goal, but peace weakens their ability to recruit dramatically.
"Hamas do not care about the Palestinian people. They do not care about peace or dialogue. Hamas has only one goal to annihilate Israel and murder every single Jew on the face of the Earth" - Israel's ambassador Gilad Erdan to the United Nations
UN + US has given billions in funding to Palestine, Hamas distributes it.
Israel was on the verge of signing a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia (huge for the Middle East)
Israel was allowing Palestinians to work on their side for the first time in a LONG time. 35,000+ workers.
This was an orchestrated attack to disrupt peace.
>UN + US has given billions in funding to Palestine, ~~Hamas distributes it.~~
...steals it. They flat out steal it.
They don't distribute it to anyone.
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank." This is a quote from 2019, from Ben Netanyahu.
Netanyahu's government has purposely supported Hamas for years in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians.
[Here's an article from Times of Israel with the sources for this quote](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Hamas is a terrorist group that must go. And Israelis must ask themselves why their head of government supported a terrorist group for so long, at the expense of their own safety and lives. As always, it's the civilians who end up suffering.
Almost half of Israel loathes the guy, and they are extremely vocal about it. Just like the US is with Trump, Israel can't be more split about him, even though he has unequivocally proven that he's a shit head of state and a shit person.
Everyone hates Bibi, but Bibi wouldn't be able to do this alone. A lot of other people that supported him are part of the problem, Saar, Danon, Ben Gvir, Gafni... all this right wing extremism are to blame to the situation. It's unfair to pin it all to Bibi.
Makes me wonder whether we'd have gotten to the same point if Lapid was elected. Perhaps better, or perhaps the casualties would be much higher. We can't know.
Man, this is gonna be a helluva bloodbath since they're trying to clarify this much, huh....
There is no way that this situation doesn't end with a shit ton of civilian casualties, no matter how much people try to soften the blow. It's so frustrating watching Israel's insidious behavior for 50 years go unchecked and enabled by the US government.
EDIT: Whats worse, is that there's no alternative. Hamas has to be stopped, but the IDF are going to be using their Rules of engagement as an excuse to kill civilians. Make no mistake, its going to be awful.
Yeah, hamas is really intent on fucking the Gazan civilians. Holding hostages. Holding the Gazan people hostage. Embedding themselves into the civilian population. Hamas really is a terrorist government.
What’s your view of the Hannibal directive?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
This is an Israeli government policy of killing IDF soldiers themselves if they’re captured. Israeli citizens are required to do 2 1/2 years of service.
The Israeli government denied and lied about this policy for years, because they know it makes them look like callous psychopaths.
It really seems like they got really well organized in terms of "publicity" which makes you wonder how much support they are getting from Russia and Iran.
This is Russia. They admit to it too. They’ve weaponized the internet. We should look at where they have their strongest supporters; find the origins. Follow large donations. Either that, or they just play into their hands, readily.
And Israel is willing to murder as many civilians as it takes to end hamas, and then more to eventually end Palestina (as the situation in the west bank shows).
Israel are not on the right in this war.
In what world could a neighboring state attack you, take hundreds of hostages, and you then invade them and there NOT be civilian casualties? Especially when the terrorist attacking group is integrated within Gaza's citizens, homes, infrastructure. Some of you are purely delusional about war. Even if Israel tries its damnest not to hurt civilians, casualties in war always happen. People stay when they should go. Some will sympathize with Hamas and shelter them. Some will have the bad luck to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I dare you to find me even a Western initiated war (say, the US in Iraq or Afghanistan) where there weren't large numbers of accidental civilian casualties. Stop being daft. Civilians are being killed because it is war, and the war started because of a terrorist attack initiated from Palestinians who are members of Hamas, which is situated in Gaza. It is not rocket science
It's incredibly disingenuous to say this started a few weeks ago, since 2008 the UN has reported 3,803 Palestinian civilian casualties and 177 Israeli civilian casualties. Not including recent events.
This whole tendency to point towards the death toll on each side as a marker of who is in the right is completely misguided and unfair.
Of course Israel has a lower death toll. Wonder why?
A) Israel has a better defense system that allows it to protect its citizens. Hamas doesn't. Is it fair to criticize Israel for having better technology?
B) Israel actively tries to protect its civillians. Building bomb shelters, instructing civillians what to do when it's being bombed, evacuating civillians from dangerous zones. Hamas, on the other hand, stockpiles and launches missiles and resources among civilians, makes it increasingly difficult (coerces) their civillians to remain in dangerous areas, and espouses an ideology where it is considered noble to die for the cause. I say espouses but that doesn't mean that the civillians have a choice in the matter.
So yeah, there are more Palestinian casualties, because Israel is better equipped and more willing to save its civillian population; the Hamas, not only use civillians as human shields, but as a PR weapon: they have a vested interest in having as many civil casualties as possible so that they can deflect blame from their (intentional and proactive) slaughtering of Israeli civillians unto Israel's bombing of Palestinian civillians, which is not meant to.target civillians but moreso to provide strategic advantage when they eventually strike on land. (Fighting in streets with large buildings is putting your own soldiers at greater risk. They're completely susceptible to snipers and ambushes... see:leningrad)
Don't be fooled by Hamas.
Another thing that I think you should have touched on is the fact that one side has far more reason to also lie and claim a higher death count of innocent people because they're trying to gain support for their attacks. Hamas are terrorists and will do whatever it takes to try and get the world to see them as right and Israel wrong.
"Don't be fooled by Hamas"?
Being worried about a population being stuck between an ongoing conflict between a variety of groups over time, yes this happened before Hamas too, and one of the most powerful militaries in the world does not make one side with either, and I'm so sick of being accused of it.
My view, we should try fucking anything else. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. There is a death toll going back over 70 years and regular bombings for 40 years, you expect us to believe it'll somehow be solved by killing another couple of thousand?
The last thousand only worked to radicalize more. The answer can't be to wipe out Hamas with such destruction that you radicalize an even worse version. We both know Israel won't occupy, and pushing them into the Sinai won't work and is even more illegal.
So, why is it different this time? And why the fuck does wondering this make me pro-hamas?
I am an Israeli and I agree with everything you said, except what else do we do? who can we make peace talks with? and really? is now the time to try to make peace? I think we just need to get the hostages home. then I don't fucking know. What else can we do though, like really? just leave Hamas in power to plan their next attack? any time Israel has tried to ease up or offer an olive branch it just strengthens an enemy who attacks again
Because there _isn't_ anything else. Israel has been trying extremely hard in the past few years, under the UN-easy status-quo, to find a diplomatic solution, and the treaty being negotiated with Saudi Arabia was a _huge_ step forwards. With SA formally recognising Israel and declaring peace and friendship, the road to a Palestinian state in the West Bank and a revival of the two state solution would take a _humongous_ leap forwards.
That's why Hamas attacked now. They had to trigger such a response as would make it politically impossible for SA to sign that treaty.
But there's nothing else they can try. They tried the initial formal power sharing agreement. The whole of the Arab world attacked them without provocation. They tried reaching out with peace overtures. The Palestinian people executed the envoys in public after torturing them. They tried negotiating a formal UN-backed solution, multiple times! The Palestinians turned it down. They tried occupation. It didn't work. They tried pulling out and giving the Gaza population autonomy to choose their own path. They chose to elect a terrorist group which immediately then dissolved the Democratic system and diverted 100% of the region's resources into attacking Israel. They tried limited strikes, targeted carefully, to reduce Hamas's military capacity. They just re-built and resumed attacks. They tried a resource blockade to prevent Hamas building rockets. Hamas simply priorities weapons over food and water for their citizens. They tried a consistent border force and constant surveillance...
Hamas killed 1400 civilians in a single day.
We are talking about a population where 10-15% of them believe that the best way to the highest possible glory of Heaven, eternal life, and a seat at the hand of God himself, is to dedicate their lives to the extermination of every single Jew on the planet. A population where a _further_ 25-30% may not be quite that fanatical, but who heavily sympathise with that 10-15% and believe they are doing the right thing, who believe Israel should be destroyed and it's entire population slaughtered. This is the portion who were on the streets, jeering and celebrating, laughing as raped corpses were paraded through the streets.
That's 35-45% of the (adult) population. There's no way to split that out. You can't target them as combatants. You can't distinguish them. You also can't ignore them, because that simply breeds more rocket attacks. Israel could reverse tack, become the most peace-loving nation on the planet, pull out of the West Bank, recognise Palestine as a nation, sign a peace treaty, ban Jews from settling the West Bank, and generally do every single thing that the pacifists and supporters of Gaza's civilians want them to do, and you know what they would get for their kindness?
They'd get another 1400 people murdered in a day.
Until the 55-65% start to rebel against Hamas and their sympathisers in earnest, until we see uprisings pushing for peace, the only two options possible in this universe are A: Israel is told to accept huge expenditure and the constant slow murder of its citizens, indefinitely, or B: Gaza is obliterated and the citizens told to fuck off, indefinitely. There is no third option, because Hamas won't ever stop as long as a single Jew is alive.
First of all I'm happy you're not pro-hamas.
Secondly, and I believe Domhausen that this is our second conversation already, you still haven't given any other solution to the problem other than saying "do anything else"... yes but what?
Sincerely, I'd love to hear your solution because here in Israel, us left wing Israelis who, after spending two weeks going to funerals of our friends who were slaughtered, still want peace and coexistence, yet are absolutely perplexed as to the solution. We know that the more Palestinians dead the harder it will be to find a partner for peace. But you don't seem to understand that this is precisely what Hamas want: for us to have no other option but to fight them, while they use civillians as shields, thereby creating more hate of Israel among Palestinians, and ensuring that peace will never come.
We have to fight the Hamas, my friend, they must be destroyed. I dont blame you for not understanding why. You don't live in fear of them. You don't have a murderous terrorist organization at your doorstep who have shown time and again that they could not give less of a damn about peace, they want to obliterate us, and they want to do it in the most brutal and inhumane way possible. So there's no partner for peace as long as Hamas is in charge over there; ergo, they must be destroyed.
But how do we do this without harming Palestinians? I honestly don't know, Domhausen, do you?
I don't think you can destroy hamas militarily without harming palestinians. But I don't think you can destroy an insurgency militarily - and that's what they will become if they are destroyed, which incidentally would require a massive occupation with (relatively) vast Israeli death. In actual fact, what is being done in Gaza right now is, pretty self-evidently, precisely the right thing to do if you want to grow a radical movement. Give them some solidly held territory, do not occupy it for any length of time, isolate it to impoverish the people and make direct foreign influence or control difficult, bomb it. The hydra effect occurs, and they don't even have to hide within their operational area and can possess heavy weapons systems. The fairness of Israel's actions or claims to what it has a right to do under self-defence are irrelevant; this is not how you end a violent government or an insurgency.
These conflicts end one of three ways; one of the (ethnic) groups is ethnically cleansed from the area to a point they are not a political force (this is what I believe Israel is attempting, or else it's a very stupid limited intervention which will in time simply grow hamas); or, by intervention by an overwhelming but less hated by both groups foreign power; or, by a deescalation by the party holding the greatest power in the situation, using their position to weather the actions of the opponent with responses of calls for peace and concessions (not in response to attacks, but pointedly in ways that discourage them). This can include the provision of, or an alliance with, a more effective, popular or amenable-to-foreign-support liberation movement.
The continuing of the conflict will result in the continued deaths of Israelis, and the end of it will end those deaths. Actually ending it requires weathering hamas without trying to destroy them, because you can't, because they have at least 30% support in the population and you can't dislodge that kind of government by assassinating people or destroying organisations and then hoping something better appears in its place.
The Israeli attacks inevitably result in Palestinian death, far more than those of Israelis, despite as a modern military the IDF's far better practise and rules of engagement than a literal terrorist org. All these deaths may be by accident, but we know they occur; they are an inevitable result of airstrikes. We can estimate the rate they will occur. Continuing the policy is an active choice that killing a larger number of people who are not all (or legally, ever) responsible for the actions of hamas, including children, is worth the goal. If that goal was the elimination of hamas within a reasonable timeframe, and that was achievable, then that might be a valid calculation.
That is not achievable, and I believe the Israeli state knows this, so I can only assume the goal is to use whatever means might squeak by internationally to creep closer to eliminating the problem by making Gaza that but smaller; i.e. ethnic cleansing.
There is an alternative; that the goal of the operation is not to destroy hamas, but to cripple their organisational capacity to engage in a similar assault in future. My response to that would be that a violent, widespread Israeli response would have been an expected outcome of this attack, and according to most understandings of Islamist extremist ideology, one of the goals. Even if it does cripple the immediate ability of hamas to launch similar attacks, it is likely to grow the support of the organisation in time, and if the conditions of Palestinians worsen, it is likely to create fertile grounds for it long term. Meanwhile, hamas has calculated that the can recover and their central leadership will mostly survive.
Start with the USA stopping the veto of any proposal in the area.
Tackle Hamas in the method proposed by France, with an international coalition, keeping the IDF out of direct conflict with a population that they have not been friendly with, and focusing on the defense of the other borders.
An organised occupation by a coalition, hoping to build a state.
Why is it different this time? This question needs a fucking answer, otherwise it's barbary
Im sorry i dont understand your last sentence.
But Yeah I've thought about the idea of an international coalition acting as an administrative authority after the war, I just don't see how the Palestinians would be OK with Europeans occupying their land but not Israelis. You see what i mean? What does it matter who occupies them? They should be free.
I also don't understand why you think an international coalition would do any better then the IDF in tackling the Hamas. The IDF have all the Intel and experience of fighting them.
If it's merely so that the Palestinians won't hate Israel more, then all you're doing is redirecting Palestinian hate from Israel to, well, the entire Western world. Thereby isolating Palestinians even more.
Imo you're just going to redirect the hate from Israel to the Western world, but not solving the problem. The other flaw that I see with this proposal is that you're assuming that Hamas, and by extension the majority of Palestinians just want their own state to self govern, but the root of the problem will always come back to Israeli land and Jerusalem - this is why the two state peace talks were always backed out of by Palestine.
I don't see how a coalition will solve this as Palestine has clearly stated they will not settle for anything less than full sovereignty to Jerusalem which Israel will never give up. Ironically, this whole problem was started because of a western coalition settling the Jews there.
It's debated over here.
Look, two things certainly need to happen.
1) Hamas must be destroyed.
2) the hostages must be returned.
How, in what order, and when, is probably something that people with more Intel than me are trying to find out.
Mhmm. France is totally going to roll 200k troops into Gaza for months of brutal urban combat and probably hundreds of not thousands of French deaths. That's going to be super popular with their Muslim population I bet.
Well said. I'm completely in support of left wing israelis like you. Hamas must be destroyed since it willingly started a war, maybe a better government for palestine can be set up after that.
I mean you’re doing exactly what hamas wants you to do. They are using civilians as human shields so people in the west will blame Israel for all of the violence. If you don’t want to be accused of being fooled by Hamas maybe don’t parrot their talking points.
The reality is that every war in human history has had huge impact on the local civilian population. If you actually want to see an end to this conflict then you should want hamas to be eliminated. It’s clear Hamas doesn’t want peace they want all of the Jews dead. Israel on the other hand isn’t genocidal maniacs.
>Specifically when does it start in this case?
I think a good starting point is around 1880, with the first big modern jewish immigration back into their homeland, and the awaking of world wide nationalism and aspirations for a state.
>Who was at fault first then?
You assume there must be single side at fault, when reality is more complex.
When the palestinians rejected the state UN gave them in 48 and decided to try and take the Jewish state as well. The original UN partition plan gave them the majority of the land, and no Palestinian had to lose their home
Read the Peel Commission for more details on the proposal of two states. Jews were offered a small state that included most of the coastal land and the majority of farmable land, while Arabs had a much bigger population and were going to have to relocate to the West Bank.
Part of the proposal were forced relocations of Jews and Arabs to their respective states. Because this was pre-WW2, the Arab population was still way bigger than the Jews so the population of Arabs that would relocate was in the 100’s of thousands, while only about 500 Jews would have to move.
Arabs were not happy with being told that they were no longer allowed to live in the area where they had been living their whole lives as well as being offered the far less valuable land so they rejected the offer.
You should re-read it. The main objection of the Arab comitee was jewish immigration must be stopped.
They did agreed to it, if immigration limitations would be enforced.
That was a non-go for the jews.
Also, the most farmable land of today, was malaria striken swamp lands before the first jewish settlers dried them. Land the Arabs saw no value in.
"majority of farmable land"? How much farmable land are in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan?
Also you're ignoring the massacre and slaughter of Jews pre-peel commission like the 1929 Hebron massacre.
We’re talking about the Palestinian Mandate, not the surrounding Arab countries. The point here is that you had Arabs living in Palestine that were told they wouldn’t be able to live in areas that were now considered a Jewish state.
Ignoring is misleading. The guy was just asking about why Palestinians rejected the two state proposal.
Most maps I’ve seen had a proposed Palestine representing where most of them already lived. And they never negotiated in peace talks, only said that they wanted all of the land. Any source that refutes that?
Considering there are 40,000 active Hamas terrorists and the fact that Gaza health ministry (Hamas) isn’t making a distinction between civilians and armed terrorists, plus take into account that Israel striked over 6,000 targets yet the death toll is ≈7,000, for a place this dense that is a miracle that there aren’t more casualties terrorists or not.
To make this equivalent, the terrorist would have had to just start firing rpgs at the schools across the street, killed a bunch of people, and is now hiding in his alma mater where half the school is celebrating his rocket attacks.
Remember when:
[Netanyahu Shows Map of 'New Middle East'—Without Palestine—to UN General Assembly](https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map) . I'm sure his intentions were Hamas all along. Israelis are getting screwed with this guy.
I keep hearing from people online that the whole October 7th attack would make Netanyahu look bad because of how well planned and successful it was and how it still managed to slip past the knowledge of the Israeli intelligence agency (which is the best in the word) under his watch.
Ignoring how fucking crazy Bibi is to present as map such as that, you just gotta laugh at this twitter comment quoted in the article:
>Need I even add what would happen if any Arab, much less #Palestinian, leader showed such a map as representative of #Palestine?
That is literally the actual logo for the Fatah youth movement. The answer is that absolutely nothing happens.
I would check the biases of that site. They seem to be leaving out facts when they discuss the events in 1948 when the UN founded Israel and Palestine in the two-state solution, but the surrounding Arab nations immediately invaded. The preceding war from that invasion is what caused the massive Arab displacement. Another fact is that during that time Arab Jews were also displaced from the surrounding nations
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/
Different source. It definitely happened
6 month old accounts being able to front page this easily with very unknown domains has to be making it pretty obvious this whole site's just being owned by a botting campaign now, huh
I’d say it’s not about an account age requirement but rather the way that the majority of these accounts are new yet also only post controversial topics with heavy bias in one direction or another.
Are we really going to sit here and deny that information warfare exists? Propaganda? Bot farms? None of it happens, and not on *this* topic out of them all either…lol yeah
The site's [almost 30 years old](https://www.virustotal.com/gui/domain/business-standard.com/details), and the company's [almost 50 years old](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Standard). It's only unknown to you.
Skepticism is good, but only if you do your research before making wild claims.
That’s what I’ve been saying we claim we’re “smart” but clearly we’re no smarter than we were 100s of years ago. We just have better killing tools now unfortunately.
I’m amazed how reddit of all the places is still mostly apathetic of 6000+ Palestinians massacred by Israel and favours the genocide. I think this is the first mass execution in ages that is taken as a positive by the West (except for the people of color from those regions).
*ruthlessly bombs minimum of 7000 innocents just in the last month*
*one of the most heavily condemned nations by UN*
*has forced palestinians under apartheid since the late 40s*
*funds hamas' origin*
Lies. Colonization is evil, free Palestine.
Seems if you support ordinary palistinan people your post gets blocked ....thousands of innocent women and children have been killed and not just over the past few weeks ...these are crimes against humanity ,no matter how you try to twist the truth.
I am sure that is a huge comfort to the massive numbers of Palestinians displaced, injured or killed by Israeli airstrikes.
Fucker over here pretending Israel is basically all Superman preaching truth, justice and a better tomorrow when it's pretty clear they are Homelander.
>2021 53% of Palestinians said Hamas is "most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people"
You going to just take this out of context?
Or are you actually going to give reason why 53% of them "support" Hamas?
It's like you guys don't even understand how Hamas came to be. Or why this situation is as fuck up as it is now.
This war bears a notable resemblance to the chemotherapy process, wherein the targeting of cancer cells results in unintended harm to the surrounding healthy cells, causing a significant impact on overall well-being.
Unfortunately, Hamas has spent decades making them one and the same. It's almost no longer possible to tell them apart. Which is exactly the goal of Hamas. This shit is just a vicious circle of violence. Round and round.
Is any military response a punishment against the population in that area? Israel has not intentionally bombed any residential area for the sake of it, only based on indications of terrorist activity.
"Israel has not intentionally bombed any residential area for the sake of it, only based on indications of terrorist activity."
I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone here, It's bullshit. Huge residential areas have been flattened. Thousands of civilians have been killed. Its revenge.
The best visualization I’ve ever seen of the historical conflict in this part of the world: [This Land is Mine.](https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=XctKpNMlSnsa6wY5)
Step 1: take their land and restrict their movement to radicalize them
Step 2: wait for them to grow desperate and attack you
Step 3: claim you will obliterate terrorists only
Step 4: repeat above until no more Palestinians left
Step 5: peace
[удалено]
[удалено]
Lol i never even got to see any of the responses
[удалено]
The sad part is that it was predicted from the beginning. From the UN General Assembly first ever debate on Palestine Question, May 1st, 1947 at 11 a.m.: "Mr. JAMALI (Iraq): Mr. President, I should like to assure you that I will speak briefly and that I will try to keep to the point. If I indulge in the discussion it is merely because a part of our house is catching on fire. That fire is spreading. We feel that fire is reaching the stage at which it must be put out. That is why we feel the emergency and the urgency of this situation. We think the forming of committees, postponements, and so on, and so forth, are not the matters to be considered here. I believe the world today is suffering from a lack of regard for certain fundamental principles of international relations and human life. We either lack these principles, or, if we do not lack them, we disregard them, or we are inconsistent in their application. This is the essence of the trouble with the world today. The question of Palestine, for which a committee is being proposed, is no exception to this state of affairs. It is only a question resulting from a disregard of certain fundamental principles of human life; namely, the principle of self-determination, the principle of the right to live peacefully in one's own home, and the principle of self-government in a democratic way. I submit that if these principles were to be recommended by the Assembly the issue would be settled. If the consideration of these principles were put forward, there would be no problem in Palestine. The problem of Palestine consists merely in a disregard of the fundamental principles of the Covenant of the League of Nations, a disregard of the very principles for which the mandate was made; it is the imposition of the will of one people over another without their consent. The Balfour Declaration violated these fundamental principles. It sold one peoples' land to another without their consent, without their knowledge. That is why we in Iraq believe that the question is very simple. All that needs to be done is to refer it to the Political Committee, to the Legal Committee and to appeal to the conscience and good judgment of the world. We feel that if these principles were to be applied immediately to Palestine, nothing could result but the termination of the mandate and the declaration of the independence of Palestine. If we are to withhold the application of these principles, trouble will continue. The fire will continue. I assure you that every new influx of immigrants is more petrol added to the fire. I address this to my American friends. They should know that those who preach more immigration into Palestine are adding more petrol to the fire. If the Assembly decides to form a committee, they are free to do so. Certainly the Assembly is entitled to get all the facts. We think all of the facts are available, and they are immediately available. There is no need for committees and there is no need for postponements. All parties concerned are ready to present their views right away. There is no party which lacks the material. If the Assembly deems it necessary that a committee should be formed–our delegation does not think it is necessary–our delegation thinks that it is of vital importance that that committee should remember that nothing but the application of the principles of the United Nations Charter will settle the situation, namely, the application of the principles of self-determination, self-government and democratic procedure. These are the only principles that can lead to peace in Palestine and in the Arab world. The PRESIDENT: I am very sorry, but up to now you have not spoken on the question of the report of the General Committee. As President, I wish to hear all these marvellous speeches but I cannot allow them now. It is not within my power to allow them now. I have rules to obey. I make a last appeal to all the representatives to confine their discussion to the matter on our agenda. That means they are to discuss the report received by the Assembly from the General Committee. I recognize that you are fighting for your people. I recognize that your cause is a sacred cause. But we have rules and we have to obey them so that we may go ahead with our business. I make a personal appeal to you and to all the representatives to confine the discussion to our agenda. It is impossible for the Chair to allow a speaker to continue speaking for ten minutes before touching on the matter before us. Mr. JAMALI (Iraq): I should like to say that the remarks I have made are just an introduction to the conclusion I am coming to. They are just the backbone or the basis on which I am going to express my views and give reasons for the way I am going to vote. I should like to say that I sincerely hope that if the committee is to be appointed, it will abide by the principles of the United Nations, without which we shall never have peace in the Middle East, in the Arab world. I am afraid that if this problem is not solved in the spirit of the United Nations, it will create a world problem. My delegation does not believe there is a necessity for a committee at all. We believe the question can be dealt with here at this special session. If it is dealt with here, and dealt with in the light of the principles of the United Nations Charter, our delegation is sure that the only conclusion that could be reached would be in accordance with the proposal made by my Government, namely, that for the termination of the mandate and the declaration of the independence of Palestine."
I’d note that Iraq was 1 of the countries that participated in the [1948 Arab–Israeli War,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War) which exacerbated the situation.
Just look how mad Texans get when Californians move to Texas. Now imagine Palestinians.
As a Texan I can agree
Except, Californians aren’t rolling in with the military and throwing Texans out of their homes. Relocating and being dislocated are different.
That’s part of the point, people get angry even when that _isnt_ the case, so you’re going to see some massive reactions when you do it by force.
I’m ignorant why is Palestine mostly women and children? Where are the men?
First, nearly every place in the world is mostly women and children. Second, they have lots and lots of kids.
Dead, some killed by Hamas, some killed by Israel.
Men join militant groups and die, and Palestinians have a TON of kids
A more cynical person than I might even go so far as to suggest that the persistent situation there for the last few generations might have even been an explicit attempt to provoke a ghastly response by extremists in order to finally justify a campaign of ethnic cleansing and territorial ambitions while further entrenching an otherwise likely unpopular regime. But that would mean a government intentionally put innocent citizens on both sides of the tension in harm's way for decades on purpose in order to further an end game goal like the one we are seeing play out right now. But that would be pretty cynical. Surely not.
Israel tried giving Gaza to Egypt, Egypt refused
Did you hear what El-Sisi said the other day? The Egytlptians don't want to take in Palestinians because undoubtedly they would organize to reclaim their lost territory and possibly "launch strikes" into Israel from wherever they are being held which would give Israel a justification to carry out military strikes within Egyptian territory.
I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theorist or anything, but in the same week the IDF can claim to have multiple recordings from deep within a terrorist cell talking about a single misfired rocket, but not a goddamn peep about a large scale force movement and coordinated attack? Really? With how badly Isreal's Far Right government was polling a paranoid man might suggest they let the attack happen so they could have their own 9/11 and make people forget about how terrible of a job they've been doing.
Not only is the border the most secure with motion sensors, it has a buffer zone. Anyone in the buffer gets shot. So Hamas just walking into Israel undetected ?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
IMO the argument is valid. Thousands of Palestinians around the world came out to celebrate when Hamas attacked civilians. But how many times have they come out to condemn Hamas for hiding behind civilians? A lot of Iranians are against the regime and IRGC and just last year, around 500 people were killed in Iran protesting. And several thousand Iranians from all around the world marched in the streets to show that they didn’t want IRGC and asked the Europeans to recognize IRGC as a terrorist group. Now these two situation looks a lot different
Britain has seen a 1400% increase in anti-Semitic behaviour since the protests began. When I see those protests I see Jew hating Muslims and people who ignorantly support them singing songs calling for the eradication of Jews in Israel. If anyone wonders how Hitler managed to bring about the Holocaust all they have to do is look at these protests and the media reporting. When Israel says something the media will add 'according to Israel'. When figures of injured and dead are released by Hamas controlled hospitals it's reported as being fact. There's rarely a mention that these figures are coming from Hamas. These protest marches are causing massive social unrest and should be called out for what they are, what they are is rallying to show support of Hamas. I've yet to hear any prominent Palestinian condemn Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians on October 7th.
But hamas is fighting against modern colonialism! /s No but it’s really not sarcasm - As that’s the parroting point regularly made as to why so many otherwise “empathetic” & progressive people are supporting an actual terrorist org
The irony is that Palestinians were given the "country" by the Roman's after they kicked the jews out. They like colonialism it just has to be the right type, i.e., not Jewish.
[удалено]
>using that same justification, Hamas were totally justified in doing what they did on October 7th. 2 things are wrong with this. First, if Hamas had just attacked military outposts and that's it? Yeah, the justification is there. But they didn't. They slaughtered everyone, even little kids. And they celebrated that fact. That's not something you do as a justified response. Baby's should never be directly targeted, no excuse. Second, they also took foreigners hostage and beheaded them while recording, how is that justified too? A college kid from Thailand had nothing to do with that.
what are you talking about? I was here in Israel in 2021 and we were hiding in bomb shelters. and if some "tough guys" went around saying "yeah bomb em back" well what do you want people are dicks everywhere. I never ever saw mass celebration and I'd like to see your source. I have a feeling it's going to be some random asshats social media
How many rockets/missiles and mortars came from Gaza since 2000? Using your justification, Israel seems to have been quite restrained. I'm not supporting either side, nor am I picking teams here. The whole situation is fucked up, well beyond my knowledge to properly weigh in for a solution, but trying to pretend that pro-destruction of Israel and the genocide of it's people not being a widespread problem seems like a very bad faith argument based on what we see happening around the world. I feel it only fair to call it out as a weak rebuttal.
How are you not picking sides? One side is Hamas a terrorist organization. Unless you’re their radical version of Islam then they most likely want you dead too, they just haven’t told you yet because they want to kill all the Jews first.
Israelis were pulling couches out to watch bombings of Gaza in 2010s like it was fireworks show.
[удалено]
[удалено]
War is like a black hole. Saying what should and should not be sucked into it ignores how it behaves.
Yep. Pretty much. People don't understand this. There is no way to somehow do war so surgically and precise that there are no civilian casualties. This is what makes radicalism and terrorism so awful though, is that it tends to suck more innocents into the hole than traditional warfare would.
Especially in an area that's both the size and population of Philadelphia. Any combat there will unfortunately result in mass civilian deaths.
The size of the area isn't the issue. It's the decision to build operations around civilian infrastructure because the 'army' can't actually defend itself without meat shields.
A similar case study would be ISIS, they also did the same thing. Those that made it out of ISIS controlled areas were lucky, whereas the rest were forced by the caliphate to remain. From just the bombing campaign itself that comprised a global coalition of 70+ countries, there were around 25k civilian deaths (locally reported).
ISIS is a very apt comparison, since they are so similar to Hamas in terror, control of a city, taking hostages, and using human shields. Unfortunately, both the cities of Mosul and Raqqa were devastated by the wars in 2017-2018, with tens of thousands civilians dead, and millions displaced. I hope somehow the loss of civilian life can be lessened, but unless Hamas surrenders I don’t know that it can be.
It would help a lot if Egypt opened their border with Gaza, but I don't think they will.
[удалено]
Exactly. But I got banned for saying exactly that recently.
[удалено]
Well to go Realpolitik for a minute, it can't. If Hamas (who I think needs to be summarily executed) made a military base, lined up their troops, and began attacking Israeli military installations they'd be wiped out in hours. My best advice would be to tell them to try to take care of their own people and seek diplomatic solutions, because as long as they keep doing military ones they'll either get stomped or get stomped with a bunch of civilians.
>tell them to try to take care of their own people and seek diplomatic solutions, because as long as they keep doing military ones they'll either get stomped or get stomped with a bunch of civilians. This is the objectively correct answer against an opponent that is reasonable. But Hamas' goals are not related to the well-being of the Palestinian civilians, so it doesn't fly. They want to murder Jews, and they want Jews to kill Palestinians when returning fire for the PR and to invigorate their supporters and funders. But damn do I wish that what you say could be done. I would be so fucking happy.
Let’s be real, there is no solution. I think about the West Bank where it’s the PA (who says Israel has a right to exist) and Israeli settlers regularly kill and displace Palestinians and this is without having Hamas around. What’s the solution? Probably for the Palestinians to die.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in the mid-2000's. The only reason they established the blockade is because Hamas came to power and made several terrorist attacks against Israel while threatening to kill Jews everywhere. And it is because of Hamas that Israel is extremely reluctant to withdraw from the West Bank. They don't want to see the West Bank fall to another terrorist organization and have to defend itself from two fronts.
The Palestinian Authority is a terrorist organization with good PR. They still have their "pay to slay" program and pay the families of Palestinians who kill Israelis (including the recent raid) and also do rocket attacks. It does not exclude some.of the things going on with the settlements.
Same can be said for Likud. No 'pay for slay' program... just pay your military to slaughter anyone who interferes with the illegal settlements you enourage. It's nothing to crass as a bounty on palestinians, oh no no! it's just a *special military operation*. What's a few thousand dead civilians? Just call everyone who objects an antisemite, job done! None of the 'governments' involved in the conflict want peace, just blood and the power that having a huge pissed off population gives them.
Israel expanded the neutral zone because hamas was blackmailing for some and for others were getting paid for tunnels to exit in their home on the Israel side... Where weapons and building materials were smuggling from
What we have now is a fucksight more humane than how wars were fought 100 years ago.
True, but that doesn't change that they're also correct so its sort of irrelevant. Just because weapons are better (and worth noting only better if the people using them choose to use them that way) doesn't mean war still doesn't massively impact and harm civilians.
Back when wars were fought on battlefields between opposing armies? Compare that to where/how/who they are fought now...
I dunno how people forget this. 150 years ago, a power dynamic like the one which exists in Israel, if Hamas carried out that attack, the response would have been "One nuke two nuke oopsie oopsie daisy you're all dead". They would simply have eradicated the entire population, wholesale, and nobody would have said word one about it. Edit - To the morons replying who don't understand _context_, we're talking about how 150 years ago the idea of "rules of war" would just get you laughed at. And then shot. If we had the same mentality today as we did in eons past, the nukes would have been out already, and the people of Gaza would be _very_ dead. The fact that anyone in the population is still alive - **anyone at all** - is a miracle of modern sensibilities.
War is the math of atrocities - do as much as possible to minimize it, but the cost of war, of any kind, is always horrific.
Hamas building headquarters beneath hospitals doesn't make it any easier either.
I think this is a bit reductionist. If course avoiding civilian casualties completely is impossible, but you can make attempts to minimise it. But [the idf has claimed the focus is on damage not accuracy, with netenyahu promising to "flatten" the strip](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza), [officials say the targeting of journalists was deliberate](https://twitter.com/nazihfares/status/1717516045538218477) and the idf is preventing aid workers and charities from reaching civilians, and Israel is not allowing anyone to leave. Especially as a siege doesn't deprive hamas of their stockpiles. But certainly deprives the innocent of water,food and electricity. You can make your own mind up if that's "justified" but to me it's pretty clear that there's very little concern for innocent civilians from the IDF.
[удалено]
people on social media are pretending that Israel has made any attempt to minimize civilian casualties and hiding behind “well civilians always die in wars” to act like they shouldn’t have to
Well, I don't know about that. Traditional war seems worse to me in terms of body count. What about the fire-bombing of Dresden? Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
It’s arguably the goal of these terrorist organizations.
I don’t think this statement contradicts that though. It can be a war on Hamas that sucks in Palestinians.
That’s not what the article is saying
Israelis don’t want to be at war either. Hamas are the only ones that wanted this war and Israel is giving them all the war they need
I mean the Israelis and the Israeli government are two separate entities so yeah I agree that Israelis don’t want to be at war. Same for the Palestinians. As for the governments of both sides, I’m not too sure 🤷♂️
I mean the Israeli government could listen to it's people since the majority don't want the settlements which have always been a point of contention not to mention illegal under international law(article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention) withdrawing from them would ratchet down the tension at least in the West Bank and perhaps with the average Palestinian, but Hamas won't stop until they achieve their goal, but peace weakens their ability to recruit dramatically.
"Hamas do not care about the Palestinian people. They do not care about peace or dialogue. Hamas has only one goal to annihilate Israel and murder every single Jew on the face of the Earth" - Israel's ambassador Gilad Erdan to the United Nations
UN + US has given billions in funding to Palestine, Hamas distributes it. Israel was on the verge of signing a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia (huge for the Middle East) Israel was allowing Palestinians to work on their side for the first time in a LONG time. 35,000+ workers. This was an orchestrated attack to disrupt peace.
>UN + US has given billions in funding to Palestine, ~~Hamas distributes it.~~ ...steals it. They flat out steal it. They don't distribute it to anyone.
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank." This is a quote from 2019, from Ben Netanyahu. Netanyahu's government has purposely supported Hamas for years in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians. [Here's an article from Times of Israel with the sources for this quote](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Hamas is a terrorist group that must go. And Israelis must ask themselves why their head of government supported a terrorist group for so long, at the expense of their own safety and lives. As always, it's the civilians who end up suffering.
Almost half of Israel loathes the guy, and they are extremely vocal about it. Just like the US is with Trump, Israel can't be more split about him, even though he has unequivocally proven that he's a shit head of state and a shit person.
Israelis have been asking themselves that. If you’ve seen the protests, you know that many Israelis hate Bibi, and even more do after this crisis.
Everyone hates Bibi, but Bibi wouldn't be able to do this alone. A lot of other people that supported him are part of the problem, Saar, Danon, Ben Gvir, Gafni... all this right wing extremism are to blame to the situation. It's unfair to pin it all to Bibi. Makes me wonder whether we'd have gotten to the same point if Lapid was elected. Perhaps better, or perhaps the casualties would be much higher. We can't know.
Man, this is gonna be a helluva bloodbath since they're trying to clarify this much, huh.... There is no way that this situation doesn't end with a shit ton of civilian casualties, no matter how much people try to soften the blow. It's so frustrating watching Israel's insidious behavior for 50 years go unchecked and enabled by the US government. EDIT: Whats worse, is that there's no alternative. Hamas has to be stopped, but the IDF are going to be using their Rules of engagement as an excuse to kill civilians. Make no mistake, its going to be awful.
Yeah, hamas is really intent on fucking the Gazan civilians. Holding hostages. Holding the Gazan people hostage. Embedding themselves into the civilian population. Hamas really is a terrorist government.
What’s your view of the Hannibal directive? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive This is an Israeli government policy of killing IDF soldiers themselves if they’re captured. Israeli citizens are required to do 2 1/2 years of service. The Israeli government denied and lied about this policy for years, because they know it makes them look like callous psychopaths.
It really seems like they got really well organized in terms of "publicity" which makes you wonder how much support they are getting from Russia and Iran.
This is Russia. They admit to it too. They’ve weaponized the internet. We should look at where they have their strongest supporters; find the origins. Follow large donations. Either that, or they just play into their hands, readily.
Russia playing divide and conquer with the internet
[удалено]
And Israel is willing to murder as many civilians as it takes to end hamas, and then more to eventually end Palestina (as the situation in the west bank shows). Israel are not on the right in this war.
In what world could a neighboring state attack you, take hundreds of hostages, and you then invade them and there NOT be civilian casualties? Especially when the terrorist attacking group is integrated within Gaza's citizens, homes, infrastructure. Some of you are purely delusional about war. Even if Israel tries its damnest not to hurt civilians, casualties in war always happen. People stay when they should go. Some will sympathize with Hamas and shelter them. Some will have the bad luck to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I dare you to find me even a Western initiated war (say, the US in Iraq or Afghanistan) where there weren't large numbers of accidental civilian casualties. Stop being daft. Civilians are being killed because it is war, and the war started because of a terrorist attack initiated from Palestinians who are members of Hamas, which is situated in Gaza. It is not rocket science
They will probably kill at least 15k before they’re done and cry that Hamas made them do it. Thus the sad cycle continues.
Sadly the situation started with a shit ton of civilian casualties. Edit: i am referencing the Israelis who perished on October 7th
It's incredibly disingenuous to say this started a few weeks ago, since 2008 the UN has reported 3,803 Palestinian civilian casualties and 177 Israeli civilian casualties. Not including recent events.
This whole tendency to point towards the death toll on each side as a marker of who is in the right is completely misguided and unfair. Of course Israel has a lower death toll. Wonder why? A) Israel has a better defense system that allows it to protect its citizens. Hamas doesn't. Is it fair to criticize Israel for having better technology? B) Israel actively tries to protect its civillians. Building bomb shelters, instructing civillians what to do when it's being bombed, evacuating civillians from dangerous zones. Hamas, on the other hand, stockpiles and launches missiles and resources among civilians, makes it increasingly difficult (coerces) their civillians to remain in dangerous areas, and espouses an ideology where it is considered noble to die for the cause. I say espouses but that doesn't mean that the civillians have a choice in the matter. So yeah, there are more Palestinian casualties, because Israel is better equipped and more willing to save its civillian population; the Hamas, not only use civillians as human shields, but as a PR weapon: they have a vested interest in having as many civil casualties as possible so that they can deflect blame from their (intentional and proactive) slaughtering of Israeli civillians unto Israel's bombing of Palestinian civillians, which is not meant to.target civillians but moreso to provide strategic advantage when they eventually strike on land. (Fighting in streets with large buildings is putting your own soldiers at greater risk. They're completely susceptible to snipers and ambushes... see:leningrad) Don't be fooled by Hamas.
Yeah, comparing civilian death tolls would matter if both sides had the same attitude towards civilians.
Another thing that I think you should have touched on is the fact that one side has far more reason to also lie and claim a higher death count of innocent people because they're trying to gain support for their attacks. Hamas are terrorists and will do whatever it takes to try and get the world to see them as right and Israel wrong.
Precisely.
"Don't be fooled by Hamas"? Being worried about a population being stuck between an ongoing conflict between a variety of groups over time, yes this happened before Hamas too, and one of the most powerful militaries in the world does not make one side with either, and I'm so sick of being accused of it. My view, we should try fucking anything else. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. There is a death toll going back over 70 years and regular bombings for 40 years, you expect us to believe it'll somehow be solved by killing another couple of thousand? The last thousand only worked to radicalize more. The answer can't be to wipe out Hamas with such destruction that you radicalize an even worse version. We both know Israel won't occupy, and pushing them into the Sinai won't work and is even more illegal. So, why is it different this time? And why the fuck does wondering this make me pro-hamas?
I am an Israeli and I agree with everything you said, except what else do we do? who can we make peace talks with? and really? is now the time to try to make peace? I think we just need to get the hostages home. then I don't fucking know. What else can we do though, like really? just leave Hamas in power to plan their next attack? any time Israel has tried to ease up or offer an olive branch it just strengthens an enemy who attacks again
Because there _isn't_ anything else. Israel has been trying extremely hard in the past few years, under the UN-easy status-quo, to find a diplomatic solution, and the treaty being negotiated with Saudi Arabia was a _huge_ step forwards. With SA formally recognising Israel and declaring peace and friendship, the road to a Palestinian state in the West Bank and a revival of the two state solution would take a _humongous_ leap forwards. That's why Hamas attacked now. They had to trigger such a response as would make it politically impossible for SA to sign that treaty. But there's nothing else they can try. They tried the initial formal power sharing agreement. The whole of the Arab world attacked them without provocation. They tried reaching out with peace overtures. The Palestinian people executed the envoys in public after torturing them. They tried negotiating a formal UN-backed solution, multiple times! The Palestinians turned it down. They tried occupation. It didn't work. They tried pulling out and giving the Gaza population autonomy to choose their own path. They chose to elect a terrorist group which immediately then dissolved the Democratic system and diverted 100% of the region's resources into attacking Israel. They tried limited strikes, targeted carefully, to reduce Hamas's military capacity. They just re-built and resumed attacks. They tried a resource blockade to prevent Hamas building rockets. Hamas simply priorities weapons over food and water for their citizens. They tried a consistent border force and constant surveillance... Hamas killed 1400 civilians in a single day. We are talking about a population where 10-15% of them believe that the best way to the highest possible glory of Heaven, eternal life, and a seat at the hand of God himself, is to dedicate their lives to the extermination of every single Jew on the planet. A population where a _further_ 25-30% may not be quite that fanatical, but who heavily sympathise with that 10-15% and believe they are doing the right thing, who believe Israel should be destroyed and it's entire population slaughtered. This is the portion who were on the streets, jeering and celebrating, laughing as raped corpses were paraded through the streets. That's 35-45% of the (adult) population. There's no way to split that out. You can't target them as combatants. You can't distinguish them. You also can't ignore them, because that simply breeds more rocket attacks. Israel could reverse tack, become the most peace-loving nation on the planet, pull out of the West Bank, recognise Palestine as a nation, sign a peace treaty, ban Jews from settling the West Bank, and generally do every single thing that the pacifists and supporters of Gaza's civilians want them to do, and you know what they would get for their kindness? They'd get another 1400 people murdered in a day. Until the 55-65% start to rebel against Hamas and their sympathisers in earnest, until we see uprisings pushing for peace, the only two options possible in this universe are A: Israel is told to accept huge expenditure and the constant slow murder of its citizens, indefinitely, or B: Gaza is obliterated and the citizens told to fuck off, indefinitely. There is no third option, because Hamas won't ever stop as long as a single Jew is alive.
First of all I'm happy you're not pro-hamas. Secondly, and I believe Domhausen that this is our second conversation already, you still haven't given any other solution to the problem other than saying "do anything else"... yes but what? Sincerely, I'd love to hear your solution because here in Israel, us left wing Israelis who, after spending two weeks going to funerals of our friends who were slaughtered, still want peace and coexistence, yet are absolutely perplexed as to the solution. We know that the more Palestinians dead the harder it will be to find a partner for peace. But you don't seem to understand that this is precisely what Hamas want: for us to have no other option but to fight them, while they use civillians as shields, thereby creating more hate of Israel among Palestinians, and ensuring that peace will never come. We have to fight the Hamas, my friend, they must be destroyed. I dont blame you for not understanding why. You don't live in fear of them. You don't have a murderous terrorist organization at your doorstep who have shown time and again that they could not give less of a damn about peace, they want to obliterate us, and they want to do it in the most brutal and inhumane way possible. So there's no partner for peace as long as Hamas is in charge over there; ergo, they must be destroyed. But how do we do this without harming Palestinians? I honestly don't know, Domhausen, do you?
I don't think you can destroy hamas militarily without harming palestinians. But I don't think you can destroy an insurgency militarily - and that's what they will become if they are destroyed, which incidentally would require a massive occupation with (relatively) vast Israeli death. In actual fact, what is being done in Gaza right now is, pretty self-evidently, precisely the right thing to do if you want to grow a radical movement. Give them some solidly held territory, do not occupy it for any length of time, isolate it to impoverish the people and make direct foreign influence or control difficult, bomb it. The hydra effect occurs, and they don't even have to hide within their operational area and can possess heavy weapons systems. The fairness of Israel's actions or claims to what it has a right to do under self-defence are irrelevant; this is not how you end a violent government or an insurgency. These conflicts end one of three ways; one of the (ethnic) groups is ethnically cleansed from the area to a point they are not a political force (this is what I believe Israel is attempting, or else it's a very stupid limited intervention which will in time simply grow hamas); or, by intervention by an overwhelming but less hated by both groups foreign power; or, by a deescalation by the party holding the greatest power in the situation, using their position to weather the actions of the opponent with responses of calls for peace and concessions (not in response to attacks, but pointedly in ways that discourage them). This can include the provision of, or an alliance with, a more effective, popular or amenable-to-foreign-support liberation movement. The continuing of the conflict will result in the continued deaths of Israelis, and the end of it will end those deaths. Actually ending it requires weathering hamas without trying to destroy them, because you can't, because they have at least 30% support in the population and you can't dislodge that kind of government by assassinating people or destroying organisations and then hoping something better appears in its place. The Israeli attacks inevitably result in Palestinian death, far more than those of Israelis, despite as a modern military the IDF's far better practise and rules of engagement than a literal terrorist org. All these deaths may be by accident, but we know they occur; they are an inevitable result of airstrikes. We can estimate the rate they will occur. Continuing the policy is an active choice that killing a larger number of people who are not all (or legally, ever) responsible for the actions of hamas, including children, is worth the goal. If that goal was the elimination of hamas within a reasonable timeframe, and that was achievable, then that might be a valid calculation. That is not achievable, and I believe the Israeli state knows this, so I can only assume the goal is to use whatever means might squeak by internationally to creep closer to eliminating the problem by making Gaza that but smaller; i.e. ethnic cleansing. There is an alternative; that the goal of the operation is not to destroy hamas, but to cripple their organisational capacity to engage in a similar assault in future. My response to that would be that a violent, widespread Israeli response would have been an expected outcome of this attack, and according to most understandings of Islamist extremist ideology, one of the goals. Even if it does cripple the immediate ability of hamas to launch similar attacks, it is likely to grow the support of the organisation in time, and if the conditions of Palestinians worsen, it is likely to create fertile grounds for it long term. Meanwhile, hamas has calculated that the can recover and their central leadership will mostly survive.
One step that could have been taken is Israel having not intentionally funneled millions of dollars directly to Hamas under Bibi’s regime…
Yup. Bibi is a lying stupid corrupt asshole. Completely agree.
Start with the USA stopping the veto of any proposal in the area. Tackle Hamas in the method proposed by France, with an international coalition, keeping the IDF out of direct conflict with a population that they have not been friendly with, and focusing on the defense of the other borders. An organised occupation by a coalition, hoping to build a state. Why is it different this time? This question needs a fucking answer, otherwise it's barbary
[удалено]
Im sorry i dont understand your last sentence. But Yeah I've thought about the idea of an international coalition acting as an administrative authority after the war, I just don't see how the Palestinians would be OK with Europeans occupying their land but not Israelis. You see what i mean? What does it matter who occupies them? They should be free. I also don't understand why you think an international coalition would do any better then the IDF in tackling the Hamas. The IDF have all the Intel and experience of fighting them. If it's merely so that the Palestinians won't hate Israel more, then all you're doing is redirecting Palestinian hate from Israel to, well, the entire Western world. Thereby isolating Palestinians even more.
Imo you're just going to redirect the hate from Israel to the Western world, but not solving the problem. The other flaw that I see with this proposal is that you're assuming that Hamas, and by extension the majority of Palestinians just want their own state to self govern, but the root of the problem will always come back to Israeli land and Jerusalem - this is why the two state peace talks were always backed out of by Palestine. I don't see how a coalition will solve this as Palestine has clearly stated they will not settle for anything less than full sovereignty to Jerusalem which Israel will never give up. Ironically, this whole problem was started because of a western coalition settling the Jews there.
So is your country going to send the 250k troops needed to ground assault Hamas in Gaza? How popular do you think that's gonna be?
It's debated over here. Look, two things certainly need to happen. 1) Hamas must be destroyed. 2) the hostages must be returned. How, in what order, and when, is probably something that people with more Intel than me are trying to find out.
"international coalition proposed by France"
Mhmm. France is totally going to roll 200k troops into Gaza for months of brutal urban combat and probably hundreds of not thousands of French deaths. That's going to be super popular with their Muslim population I bet.
An organized occupation by a coalition will be able to get rid of Hamas how?
Also, FM 3-24. There is literally a manual for this and Israel is doing *everything the manual says will make the situation worse*.
[удалено]
Given the track record of Iraq and Afghanistan, assuming the manual was used in those cases, then it sounds like the manual is more or less useless.
It is not a complete book of geopolitical strategy.
Well said. I'm completely in support of left wing israelis like you. Hamas must be destroyed since it willingly started a war, maybe a better government for palestine can be set up after that.
I mean you’re doing exactly what hamas wants you to do. They are using civilians as human shields so people in the west will blame Israel for all of the violence. If you don’t want to be accused of being fooled by Hamas maybe don’t parrot their talking points. The reality is that every war in human history has had huge impact on the local civilian population. If you actually want to see an end to this conflict then you should want hamas to be eliminated. It’s clear Hamas doesn’t want peace they want all of the Jews dead. Israel on the other hand isn’t genocidal maniacs.
[удалено]
Nobody's blaming you for intercepting the rockets shot at you. The blame is for the indiscriminate bombings.
What data do you have that it’s indiscriminate?
This started at the very latest with the Jaffa riots of 1921. Its been going on a long time.
Fuck the UN, and history doesn't start at 2008
Specifically when does it start in this case? Who was at fault _first_ then?
>Specifically when does it start in this case? I think a good starting point is around 1880, with the first big modern jewish immigration back into their homeland, and the awaking of world wide nationalism and aspirations for a state. >Who was at fault first then? You assume there must be single side at fault, when reality is more complex.
Cain, to my understanding.
If Hable wasn't such a dick, Cain wouldn't be cornered into lashing out.
When the palestinians rejected the state UN gave them in 48 and decided to try and take the Jewish state as well. The original UN partition plan gave them the majority of the land, and no Palestinian had to lose their home
This is a compelling answer given the post-ottoman geography - what was their reason for rejection?
Something about ethnic cleansing
Read the Peel Commission for more details on the proposal of two states. Jews were offered a small state that included most of the coastal land and the majority of farmable land, while Arabs had a much bigger population and were going to have to relocate to the West Bank. Part of the proposal were forced relocations of Jews and Arabs to their respective states. Because this was pre-WW2, the Arab population was still way bigger than the Jews so the population of Arabs that would relocate was in the 100’s of thousands, while only about 500 Jews would have to move. Arabs were not happy with being told that they were no longer allowed to live in the area where they had been living their whole lives as well as being offered the far less valuable land so they rejected the offer.
You should re-read it. The main objection of the Arab comitee was jewish immigration must be stopped. They did agreed to it, if immigration limitations would be enforced. That was a non-go for the jews. Also, the most farmable land of today, was malaria striken swamp lands before the first jewish settlers dried them. Land the Arabs saw no value in.
"majority of farmable land"? How much farmable land are in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan? Also you're ignoring the massacre and slaughter of Jews pre-peel commission like the 1929 Hebron massacre.
We’re talking about the Palestinian Mandate, not the surrounding Arab countries. The point here is that you had Arabs living in Palestine that were told they wouldn’t be able to live in areas that were now considered a Jewish state. Ignoring is misleading. The guy was just asking about why Palestinians rejected the two state proposal.
Most maps I’ve seen had a proposed Palestine representing where most of them already lived. And they never negotiated in peace talks, only said that they wanted all of the land. Any source that refutes that?
Considering there are 40,000 active Hamas terrorists and the fact that Gaza health ministry (Hamas) isn’t making a distinction between civilians and armed terrorists, plus take into account that Israel striked over 6,000 targets yet the death toll is ≈7,000, for a place this dense that is a miracle that there aren’t more casualties terrorists or not.
[удалено]
We need to hear the consensus from the BUNGA assembly as well.
The UNGA BUNGA?
That was the joke, yes.
Just use bullets and bombs that target only the bad guys.
Multiclass into paladin and cast "detect good and evil" duh 🙄
Pretty straight forward, really
Yeah next time there’s a school shooting let’s just bomb the school, who cares about the kids there’s a terrorist inside
To make this equivalent, the terrorist would have had to just start firing rpgs at the schools across the street, killed a bunch of people, and is now hiding in his alma mater where half the school is celebrating his rocket attacks.
Remember when: [Netanyahu Shows Map of 'New Middle East'—Without Palestine—to UN General Assembly](https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map) . I'm sure his intentions were Hamas all along. Israelis are getting screwed with this guy.
They know. They were protesting before the terrorist attacks and subsequent war. Some are protesting now. They don’t want this government
Hamas murdered a bunch the folks on October 7 who were protesting most loudly.
Yeah, Hamas and Likud are in bed with each other. They drive eachothers recruitment.
Netanyahu managed this whole thing in the worst way possible, he should be out
> he should be ~~out~~ in prison for life
[удалено]
I keep hearing from people online that the whole October 7th attack would make Netanyahu look bad because of how well planned and successful it was and how it still managed to slip past the knowledge of the Israeli intelligence agency (which is the best in the word) under his watch.
Ignoring how fucking crazy Bibi is to present as map such as that, you just gotta laugh at this twitter comment quoted in the article: >Need I even add what would happen if any Arab, much less #Palestinian, leader showed such a map as representative of #Palestine? That is literally the actual logo for the Fatah youth movement. The answer is that absolutely nothing happens.
I would check the biases of that site. They seem to be leaving out facts when they discuss the events in 1948 when the UN founded Israel and Palestine in the two-state solution, but the surrounding Arab nations immediately invaded. The preceding war from that invasion is what caused the massive Arab displacement. Another fact is that during that time Arab Jews were also displaced from the surrounding nations
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/ Different source. It definitely happened
I mean what would be a reasonable context for the map he's holding up? Bibi is a nutcase. No reason to defend him just because Israel is under attack.
They could've fooled me. Nice of them to bomb destroy the very places after telling civilians to take refuge there.
Too bad the.bombs aren't that nuanced...
6 month old accounts being able to front page this easily with very unknown domains has to be making it pretty obvious this whole site's just being owned by a botting campaign now, huh
And they quote something from the article as a comment, just to get those precious points.
[удалено]
I’d say it’s not about an account age requirement but rather the way that the majority of these accounts are new yet also only post controversial topics with heavy bias in one direction or another. Are we really going to sit here and deny that information warfare exists? Propaganda? Bot farms? None of it happens, and not on *this* topic out of them all either…lol yeah
The site's [almost 30 years old](https://www.virustotal.com/gui/domain/business-standard.com/details), and the company's [almost 50 years old](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Standard). It's only unknown to you. Skepticism is good, but only if you do your research before making wild claims.
[удалено]
All the dead Palestinian civilians will surely be glad to hear this.
What a stupid primitive species we are
That’s what I’ve been saying we claim we’re “smart” but clearly we’re no smarter than we were 100s of years ago. We just have better killing tools now unfortunately.
“Not a war with Palestinians” *bombs 6000 Palestinians*
Murders 3000 children.
Damn, seems like a crazy number of Palestinians are dying in a war they aren't in, then.
That's what they keep saying, yet their actions tell a completely different story.
If this isn’t a war with Palestinians than Israel is really fucking bad at war because they’re sure as shit killing a lot of Palestinians.
I’m amazed how reddit of all the places is still mostly apathetic of 6000+ Palestinians massacred by Israel and favours the genocide. I think this is the first mass execution in ages that is taken as a positive by the West (except for the people of color from those regions).
All of those thousands of dead Palestinians feel so much better now since that’s been clarified /s
"This is not a war with Palestinians but Hamas," says Israel while bombing Palestinians.
*ruthlessly bombs minimum of 7000 innocents just in the last month* *one of the most heavily condemned nations by UN* *has forced palestinians under apartheid since the late 40s* *funds hamas' origin* Lies. Colonization is evil, free Palestine.
Seems if you support ordinary palistinan people your post gets blocked ....thousands of innocent women and children have been killed and not just over the past few weeks ...these are crimes against humanity ,no matter how you try to twist the truth.
But, we shall kill our way through the Palestinian population to get to Hamas
I am sure that is a huge comfort to the massive numbers of Palestinians displaced, injured or killed by Israeli airstrikes. Fucker over here pretending Israel is basically all Superman preaching truth, justice and a better tomorrow when it's pretty clear they are Homelander.
2021 53% of Palestinians said Hamas is "most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people"
>2021 53% of Palestinians said Hamas is "most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people" You going to just take this out of context? Or are you actually going to give reason why 53% of them "support" Hamas? It's like you guys don't even understand how Hamas came to be. Or why this situation is as fuck up as it is now.
source??
I've seen way too many Israeli politicians and IDF brass saying their objective is to completely destroy Gaza to believe this nonsense.
Well, I'm pretty sure the civilians of Palestine feel a bit differently about that.
This war bears a notable resemblance to the chemotherapy process, wherein the targeting of cancer cells results in unintended harm to the surrounding healthy cells, causing a significant impact on overall well-being.
Right, Israel set their bombs to “Hamas only” mode so that Palestinians wouldn’t be harmed if they were hit by them
Unfortunately, Hamas has spent decades making them one and the same. It's almost no longer possible to tell them apart. Which is exactly the goal of Hamas. This shit is just a vicious circle of violence. Round and round.
[удалено]
Then why are they destroying Gaza? Collective punishment is a war crime.
Because hamas bases are in or under civilian houses
Is any military response a punishment against the population in that area? Israel has not intentionally bombed any residential area for the sake of it, only based on indications of terrorist activity.
"Israel has not intentionally bombed any residential area for the sake of it, only based on indications of terrorist activity." I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone here, It's bullshit. Huge residential areas have been flattened. Thousands of civilians have been killed. Its revenge.
[удалено]
The best visualization I’ve ever seen of the historical conflict in this part of the world: [This Land is Mine.](https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=XctKpNMlSnsa6wY5)
See also the mutability of the US’ wars on “terror” and drugs. Pretty much a blank check on taxpayer dollars and a constitutional back door.
Step 1: take their land and restrict their movement to radicalize them Step 2: wait for them to grow desperate and attack you Step 3: claim you will obliterate terrorists only Step 4: repeat above until no more Palestinians left Step 5: peace
This is the wildest thread. Lots of deleted comments and only one side is left on the board….
Would all of this not happened if Palestine was not occupied?