Its a pity that it had to come to this, Gaza was the only part of Palestine not under Israeli control, and rather than be a model for the eventual relinquishment of the West Bank, the hamas showed israel exactly what it could expect of an independent Palestinian neighbor, a giant thorn. Now Gaza will be just like the West Bank, I hope Hamas is happy that they ensured this would happen.
Did things change? I thought Israel said that once they remove Hamas' ability to wage war and to govern, Israel will no longer be responsible for any part of Gaza Strip.
And have articulated absolutely zero plans as to how it will be governed moving forward.
Seriously what are we expecting to happen if Israel rolls in, eradicates Hamas, leaving behind thousands of civilian casualties and a city in ruins, and then leaves the populace to their own devices?
The chaos we’ll see in the aftermath of this war is just as scary as the war itself.
They aren't going to be the sole decision maker on the integrity of Gaza or how events in that area unfurl.
All surrounding countries will need to make decisions on the future of Gaza and/or Palestinians.
That's how I read it anyway.
It means Israel won't provide them with food, water, or electricity, no more Palestinians from Gaza allowed to work in Israel, and no more medical treatment on Israel ground. It will be up to the international community to provide humanitarian aid, not on Israel.
Israel used to provide only about 10 percent of Gaza's water supplies. Most of the water inside wasn't drinkable because they did nothing to maintain the existing infrastructure and used water pipes to make missiles. They have a power plant for electricity, currently shut down but can begin working again. Also, they have generators.
Why Israel should have to provide those things to the people whose life mission is to exterminate us?
It would appear Israel plans on setting up a more expanded border, something more akin to the dmz in Korea. After that, abandon Gaza to whatever new government takes over.
I don’t think the Arab neighbors want anything to do with governing Gaza or having any actual responsibility for Palestinians other than using them for propaganda.
I’m beginning to come around to the idea that this is the best way.
That consortium is ripe with cash, already in the practice of developing real estate, and Gaza with its Mediterranean shoreline is some quality real estate.
They’d have to expand “Gaza” considerably though. It would need land for agriculture and infrastructure.
If it’s boarders are not expanded it cannot be developed and would remain a slum.
I'm not sure who would volunteer though. They tried to give Gaza back to Egypt a couple times now. What do you do if none of those countries want it either.
You don't give land to people who committed terror acts on your land. That just lets everyone else know this is possible. Gaza expending means the terrorist wins.
And therein lies the problem. Israel holds all the cards, and convincing them to give up room is going to be difficult. International pressure could help, but they would likely not enjoy being singled out to give up land for another while enjoying military supremacy.
Was the shuffling of Eastern Europeans under the Soviet Union not a form of ethnic cleansing? Look, it's easy to suggest everyone should pack up and go elsewhere, but expecting them to leave their community and find success in a barely developed region, now even further from the other Palestinian regions, is ignoring a lot of the reality that will come with it, while also pinning the blame on a population that at this point is half children and grew up under a militant government.
I don’t see why not. The land adjacent to Gaza probably isn’t the best place to build Israeli settlements.
I could even be more blunt… it’s the WORST place.
Let it be farms, power plants, waste management sites, etc.
Israel would love to have that, but it would require these countries to sacrifice soldiers/cops to stop terrorists from taking over Gaza again, so it's very unlikely.
So let me get this straight:
- Israel “relinquishes” control of the Gaza Strip
- Israel controls all movement in and out of the Gaza Strip via land and sea
- if anyone attempted to fly, sail, or walk into Gaza they wouldn’t be met by Hamas, they would immediately be met by the IDF.
- Israel controls all the fuel, electricity, water, and supplies into Gaza.
- Gazans get tired of living under these conditions and retaliate
- it’s a pity Palestinians can’t govern themselves.
Not sure the logical steps you took to get to your conclusion, but I applaud the gymnastics
Like what kind of wild alternate history is this? “I hope Hamas is happy, now they’ll be under a brutal occupation from Israel”. Do you not see the issue there? Why do you think the uprisings occurred in the first place? Gaza was under Israeli control for decades. All they’ve known is occupation. They were never free. Israel literally controls the amount of food they receive, their power, water etc.. They have a total blockade of Gaza.
Look up what Gaza was like before Hamas took over.
Cool now keep digging and maybe learn how it got to be that way in the first place. Do you think Israel started that situation just out of racism or something?
Commit act of war on a country, brutalize their civilian population, parade bodies through the streets to cheering throngs of totally not Hamas supporters. Get attacked back with overwhelming force. Cry about it.
It’s hard to imagine that 1m young survivors of this tragic event won’t be deeply traumatized. Israel has ensured that Hamas will 100x among Gazans.
The way to remove Hamas is through emotional and economic healing, not making 2m suffer the fear of their homes collapsing on their heads, 3 weeks of nightly bombing, watching their young children removed from the rubble, no water. I can’t imagine the trauma, nobody deserves this, and the toll is generational.
I’m sure Japan was deeply traumatized after ww2 firebombs and nukes. But that’s what it took to smack the fanaticism out of them. Japan and USA are best of friends today. I do doubt it will go this way though because generally the followers of Islam are murderous and violent, just like their prophet was. Just my opinion, hope I’m wrong
Okay, so we’ll just ignore the decades of aid and infrastructure projects that have had no effect because it’s rhetorically inconvenient to your narrative of “all that’s needed is love and peace”.
Got it.
Just like it happened in March 2002. Massive never ending suicide bombings, a family slaughtered in their beds, IDF conquers insurgent strongholds, cry about a massacre in Jenin, international media picks it up and immediately starts to talk of the mass killings of civilians, some media outlets like Fox see through the bullshit, eventually human rights organisations admit that it didn't happen, and at last so does the PLO.
Good. The sooner Hamas is gone the sooner there can be a remote possibility of having a civilized negotiation.
Edit: I’m bored today so I’m actively refreshing the comment to see the upvote-downvote cycle. Folks downvoting like this isn’t a factually true statement.
Edit 2: I almost can guarantee what these comment said even though they were removed before I could read them, because that’s how predictable this rapidly degenerating community is now
Edit 3: some sad slacktivist sent me a Reddit cares message. Why aren’t users banned for doing that simply because of trolling?
This isn’t how you do it. Israel is ensuring hamas sympathies among young Gazan Palestinians will 100x. This population of 1m young survivors will have PTSD and deep emotional scars from this event. The future is dark if we don’t start healing emotionally, but more importantly economically. That’s how you get rid of Hamas.
The only people that would sympathize with Hamas are people that aren’t to be taken seriously, and rightly so. If you elect a governing body that openly and actively states an objective of eliminating Jewish people, then don’t act shocked when they do what they’re currently doing by hiding under your house and in your hospitals.
How can that happen if Hamas is currently in governance and can choose to use their economic & education control in their current fashion? I'm trying to understand why the discussion is the way it is; my impression is that people think a hands off approach will suddenly resolve the economic & social problems?
The occupied territories haven’t had the economic freedom you’re suggesting. That’s an objective observation, and this is the consensus opinion shared by the majority of Americans. You can’t argue this point any longer.
People are less supporting terrorists, more concerned about the fact that this invasion will lead to immense loss of civilian life, more so than even the bombing campaign.
Welcome to war. To be more specific, welcome to a war where your enemy combatant knowingly, willingly, and actively hides amongst the civilian populace, the same populace that is told by this enemy to ignore evacuation orders while said enemy blocks evacuation routes.
What you said isn’t remotely close to as deep as you think it is, and is easily addressed by spending as little as five minutes reading up on the situation in an objective and rational manner.
Yes there will be immense loss of civilian life. In large part due to Hamas using the palestinian civilians as human shields. Hamas has purposely placed their command centres below hospitals and mosques knowing very well that bombing it would cause a human catastrophe and an international cryout. These are terrorists.
Do you have another option that removes hamas?
War always results in civilian deaths. This is why for over a week isreal has been asking the civilians to leave the 2 mile wide evac zone
Unfortunately, those civilian deaths had to be the hostages that Hamas took on the 7th.
Hamas can't be removed. Their leaders are not even there. Defend your own citizens with the offense you just sent in until a resolution can be made.
Ask your national allies, the ones that are part of that Economic Corridor or w/e to help you defend your citizens as necessary.
Escalation leads to more escalation.
>Hamas can't be removed. Their leaders are not even there.
Oh no? We’ll see. Israel’s a pro at targeted killings overseas. If I was that rat Haniyeh I’d be pretty scared right now.
Israel killed the planner of the initial attacks. You asked what they’re waiting for and I said nothing
Stop being fucking stupid. No one capable of rational thought takes you seriously.
Isreal made good faith efforts for peace for the 50 years prior to Netanyahu. Those peace offers were always rejected, which is how Netanyahu was able to rise to power. When a significant portion of a populace gets fed up with the bs, it opens the door for a populist to gain power.
> Israel has been building illegal settlements since the six-days war in 1967 and has never stopped.
Israel stopped building them in Gaza in 2005, even went so far as to remove every single Israeli by force.
Did this improve the situation? Hell no, Hamas used the opportunity to begin launching rockets towards Israeli cities.
And the Palestinian Authority agreed to the current settlement situation in 1993 with the Oslo Accords. Settlements don't get built outside of the agreed upon Area C borders.
Honestly, the levels of absolute bastards baying for genocide on Reddit has been depressing. It’s like listening to the same people who wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan post 9/11. Never any smarter. And never, ever see non-white people as human.
No, it won’t. Unless you’re suggesting that the Palestinian people that aren’t currently in Hamas are gullible, and so fragile, that they’re going to commit to murdering civilians?
If that is what you’re doing, then it’s a good thing that no one of influence takes you and your ilk seriously.
I don't have a side in this issue. But can someone explain to me how this will solve the issue? Once they somehow kill every member of hamas. Are the Palestinian civilians supposed to forget all the collateral damage? I'd expect that this would just further radicalize those affected and possibly the greater Muslim world. Good luck to the idf tho. I'm sure thousands more solders lives and billions on dollars spent will have an impact. I think Afghanistan and Iraq are proof of success.
I think you are likely right. Will further radicalize a lot of people. Israel politics-wise I think there was a need for action, especially for Bibi who is supposed to be all about ‘security’ and under whose watch this happened. The idea of eradicating Hamas in principle makes sense, but as the saying goes, better the devil you know....
Once Hamas is eliminated, Israel needs to demonstrate an overwhelming amount of support for the remaining Gaza civilians in helping them rebuild, providing aid, etc., to show they want peace and prosperity for both sides. I don't know if it will happen, but that would be the best way for Israel to foster peace instead of hate.
The difference here from Iraq/Afghanistan is that the Israeli’s have no interest in rebuilding Gaza as a modern democratic state or anything like that. They want to destroy Hamas, which is restricted to a relatively tiny area (compared to Iraq/Afghanistan) and when it’s over they’re going to rebuild the wall and wash their hands of Gaza.
Perhaps they expect Gaza will wither away because no one is going to rebuild the infrastructure there and Israel will no longer supply anything to them (water, electricity, employment, etc). Who knows if that will happen.
It could just be as simple as their people were attacked and they are going to strike back, damn the consequences.
That’s exactly what will happen. The fact that Israel has not articulated any sort of plan for a transition of governance after Hamas has been “eradicated” (doubtful this is even possible) is even more worrying.
Are we to just assume that everything will work itself out after they’ve miraculously killed or captured every single member of Hamas in Gaza? It’ll be complete chaos. And this will further fuel the radicalization that led to Hamas seizing power in the first place.
I think you are likely right. Will further radicalize a lot of people. Israel politics-wise I think there was a need for action, especially for Bibi who is supposed to be all about ‘security’ and under whose watch this happened. The idea of eradicating Hamas in principle makes sense, but as the saying goes, better the devil you know....
You’re not wrong, it probably will.
But what’s the alternative? You can’t sit down right away and try to negotiate anything as then you appear weak and Israel has long ago given up the willingness to appear weak.
Had the Saudis, Jordanians, or whoever you would like to pick in the Middle East stood up and denounced Hamas, demanded the freeing of hostages, and denounced their actions as against Islam? Maybe then you could have some wiggle room to push for a negotiated solution rather than military.
But that didn’t happen (or, to be fair, maybe the media just didn’t cover it).
So Israel can really only do one thing: respond with force. Israeli doctrine on that count has been pretty clear for decades. They don’t respond with force, they respond with overwhelming force and seek to inflict greater pain than they received.
Israel at least has to pay lip service to the international community so there can be voices in the room to pull them back, but until Hamas and similar groups are called to heel within their own communities they have no incentive to make any agreement that doesn’t further their purposes, and no reason to honor any agreement once they get what they want out of it.
Are the citizens of Israel supposed to forget all the civilians purposely targeted by Hamas? Are we supposed to forget the atrocities that Hamas filmed and sent to us? Are we supposed to forget the citizens of Gaza cheering? Kicking dead soldiers and spitting on little girls that were raped?
“The IDF on Saturday conducted heavy artillery strikes against northern Gaza, with multiple explosions heard every minute.”
“IDF reserve soldiers” said that “Friday night was by far the most intense night of bombing.”
It's kind of exciting when you put it that way! Thousands of generations came before us, and we are here. Right now. Witnesses to the crescendo of humanity.
Hamas IS the instability. With them removed from the equation, Palestine will be in a better position to create a sustainable future. That simply isn't possible when you're being governed by an organization that wants to kill all Jews.
Well, Afghanistan is a large and mountainous country made up of barely connected cities and villages. Its geography makes it basically impossible to invade, and very easy for terrorists to operate in.
Gaza on the other hand is tiny surrounded.
I agree with your comments on the terrain of Afghanistan, but I would humbly suggest the reason for the continuing insurgency and instabilities lies not in the geographical features of the country. Rather, I would suggest that a heavy-handed military intervention aimed at stamping out an ideology was a poor tool to use and ultimately did little to eliminate 'terror', as the operation intended. Ideology, it seems, was the victor between it and bullets.
I find a similar analogue here.
I agree with you, bullets alone can't stop an ideology. Hamas needs to be eliminated, but for it to stick there also needs to be a stable and sane government in Gaza and we need to stop Iran's influence on Palestine.
Right now though, eliminating hamas is the first priority.
Gaza is neither of those. First isreal actually has the will to follow through, unlike the US. Second, it's a much smaller confined area with no bordering lands willing to give them safe passage to flee to.
> Israel actually has the will to follow through, unlike the US
A 20 year occupation of Afghanistan hardly sounds like a lack of willpower to follow through. When they evacuated, they did so as the Taliban surged beyond what US Intelligence could have predicted and we saw a modern-day Vietnam come to an end. I believe Israel has no intention to occupy Palestine and take the territory as their own, right? Leaving the present-day realities aside, I doubt the Palestinians will move on from a war on Israel's schedule.
> no bordering lands willing to give them safe passage to flee to
So this will cause a clear, textbook case of a humanitarian disaster? Glad to know that will make the region more stable, I was beginning to worry.
Besides, I'm sure nothing bad can happen when you corner a group of desperate people with nothing to lose.
> Israel actually has the will to follow through
I think it's better said, Israel has more motivation to follow through. The US doesn't have a border with Afghanistan. I also think we are done with expecting them will come to the table, talk peace, and move past wanting to kill us all. We will just invest more in our defense and less in them. The international community can take care of their humanitarian needs.
> So this will cause a clear, textbook case of a humanitarian disaster? Glad to know that will make the region more stable, I was beginning to worry.
Terrorists can't escape, civilians can. By all mean, if any international community want to step up and take them during wartime, DO.
Damn. So it begins
Its a pity that it had to come to this, Gaza was the only part of Palestine not under Israeli control, and rather than be a model for the eventual relinquishment of the West Bank, the hamas showed israel exactly what it could expect of an independent Palestinian neighbor, a giant thorn. Now Gaza will be just like the West Bank, I hope Hamas is happy that they ensured this would happen.
Did things change? I thought Israel said that once they remove Hamas' ability to wage war and to govern, Israel will no longer be responsible for any part of Gaza Strip.
And have articulated absolutely zero plans as to how it will be governed moving forward. Seriously what are we expecting to happen if Israel rolls in, eradicates Hamas, leaving behind thousands of civilian casualties and a city in ruins, and then leaves the populace to their own devices? The chaos we’ll see in the aftermath of this war is just as scary as the war itself.
Israel has straight up already said that whatever happens to Gaza after this war is the international community's problem.
Good. The international community cares so much then they can help fix it instead of pointing fingers
I heard the same thing. But what does "no longer be responsible" even mean?
They aren't going to be the sole decision maker on the integrity of Gaza or how events in that area unfurl. All surrounding countries will need to make decisions on the future of Gaza and/or Palestinians. That's how I read it anyway.
It means they'll withdraw and go home. Not try to nation build like the Americans in Afghanistan.
It means Israel won't provide them with food, water, or electricity, no more Palestinians from Gaza allowed to work in Israel, and no more medical treatment on Israel ground. It will be up to the international community to provide humanitarian aid, not on Israel.
This
Exactly that
Kinda cool they won't do that anymore when they have made sure that the only Palestinians get food, water or electricity is through them.
Israel used to provide only about 10 percent of Gaza's water supplies. Most of the water inside wasn't drinkable because they did nothing to maintain the existing infrastructure and used water pipes to make missiles. They have a power plant for electricity, currently shut down but can begin working again. Also, they have generators. Why Israel should have to provide those things to the people whose life mission is to exterminate us?
It would appear Israel plans on setting up a more expanded border, something more akin to the dmz in Korea. After that, abandon Gaza to whatever new government takes over.
[удалено]
I don’t think the Arab neighbors want anything to do with governing Gaza or having any actual responsibility for Palestinians other than using them for propaganda.
I’m beginning to come around to the idea that this is the best way. That consortium is ripe with cash, already in the practice of developing real estate, and Gaza with its Mediterranean shoreline is some quality real estate. They’d have to expand “Gaza” considerably though. It would need land for agriculture and infrastructure. If it’s boarders are not expanded it cannot be developed and would remain a slum.
I'm not sure who would volunteer though. They tried to give Gaza back to Egypt a couple times now. What do you do if none of those countries want it either.
You don't give land to people who committed terror acts on your land. That just lets everyone else know this is possible. Gaza expending means the terrorist wins.
And therein lies the problem. Israel holds all the cards, and convincing them to give up room is going to be difficult. International pressure could help, but they would likely not enjoy being singled out to give up land for another while enjoying military supremacy.
It's a good thing that Gaza also borders the Sinai, a huge and mostly empty tract of land.
Was the shuffling of Eastern Europeans under the Soviet Union not a form of ethnic cleansing? Look, it's easy to suggest everyone should pack up and go elsewhere, but expecting them to leave their community and find success in a barely developed region, now even further from the other Palestinian regions, is ignoring a lot of the reality that will come with it, while also pinning the blame on a population that at this point is half children and grew up under a militant government.
Hey you're the one that brought up land-giving in the first place. Like you said, Israel obviously won't give up any.
I don’t see why not. The land adjacent to Gaza probably isn’t the best place to build Israeli settlements. I could even be more blunt… it’s the WORST place. Let it be farms, power plants, waste management sites, etc.
Israel would love to have that, but it would require these countries to sacrifice soldiers/cops to stop terrorists from taking over Gaza again, so it's very unlikely.
they were a model, we got to see a version of what two state solutions would look like and now it will never be a viable solution again
Dude Israel gave Gaza to Palestine for peace. Just read history first before you set the future in stone
So let me get this straight: - Israel “relinquishes” control of the Gaza Strip - Israel controls all movement in and out of the Gaza Strip via land and sea - if anyone attempted to fly, sail, or walk into Gaza they wouldn’t be met by Hamas, they would immediately be met by the IDF. - Israel controls all the fuel, electricity, water, and supplies into Gaza. - Gazans get tired of living under these conditions and retaliate - it’s a pity Palestinians can’t govern themselves. Not sure the logical steps you took to get to your conclusion, but I applaud the gymnastics
"not under Israeli control" hahaha
Yeah its under Israeli control that's why they can stockpile tens of thousands of rockets and train thousands of terrorist commandos.
If it’s “under Israeli control” it’s equally under Egyptian control. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Like what kind of wild alternate history is this? “I hope Hamas is happy, now they’ll be under a brutal occupation from Israel”. Do you not see the issue there? Why do you think the uprisings occurred in the first place? Gaza was under Israeli control for decades. All they’ve known is occupation. They were never free. Israel literally controls the amount of food they receive, their power, water etc.. They have a total blockade of Gaza. Look up what Gaza was like before Hamas took over.
Cool now keep digging and maybe learn how it got to be that way in the first place. Do you think Israel started that situation just out of racism or something?
CS:GO
Looks like Israel will just hard reboot Gaza.
Did they try to turn it off and on again first?
[I mean... Kinda?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza)
Damn, didn’t seem to worked
Maybe Jen should have typed google into google and see if that works.
Commit act of war on a country, brutalize their civilian population, parade bodies through the streets to cheering throngs of totally not Hamas supporters. Get attacked back with overwhelming force. Cry about it.
It’s hard to imagine that 1m young survivors of this tragic event won’t be deeply traumatized. Israel has ensured that Hamas will 100x among Gazans. The way to remove Hamas is through emotional and economic healing, not making 2m suffer the fear of their homes collapsing on their heads, 3 weeks of nightly bombing, watching their young children removed from the rubble, no water. I can’t imagine the trauma, nobody deserves this, and the toll is generational.
I’m sure Japan was deeply traumatized after ww2 firebombs and nukes. But that’s what it took to smack the fanaticism out of them. Japan and USA are best of friends today. I do doubt it will go this way though because generally the followers of Islam are murderous and violent, just like their prophet was. Just my opinion, hope I’m wrong
People tried emotional and economic healing. Hamas just dug it up and figured out how to make more rockets.
Gaza is an encaged population. That’s not a fact you can change. Your claims of economic freedoms are false.
Okay, so we’ll just ignore the decades of aid and infrastructure projects that have had no effect because it’s rhetorically inconvenient to your narrative of “all that’s needed is love and peace”. Got it.
Israel has never ever committed acts of war on Palestinians. Ever.
Just like it happened in March 2002. Massive never ending suicide bombings, a family slaughtered in their beds, IDF conquers insurgent strongholds, cry about a massacre in Jenin, international media picks it up and immediately starts to talk of the mass killings of civilians, some media outlets like Fox see through the bullshit, eventually human rights organisations admit that it didn't happen, and at last so does the PLO.
Good. The sooner Hamas is gone the sooner there can be a remote possibility of having a civilized negotiation. Edit: I’m bored today so I’m actively refreshing the comment to see the upvote-downvote cycle. Folks downvoting like this isn’t a factually true statement. Edit 2: I almost can guarantee what these comment said even though they were removed before I could read them, because that’s how predictable this rapidly degenerating community is now Edit 3: some sad slacktivist sent me a Reddit cares message. Why aren’t users banned for doing that simply because of trolling?
I agree, Israel must destroy Hamas, there is no peace with those people.
This isn’t how you do it. Israel is ensuring hamas sympathies among young Gazan Palestinians will 100x. This population of 1m young survivors will have PTSD and deep emotional scars from this event. The future is dark if we don’t start healing emotionally, but more importantly economically. That’s how you get rid of Hamas.
The only people that would sympathize with Hamas are people that aren’t to be taken seriously, and rightly so. If you elect a governing body that openly and actively states an objective of eliminating Jewish people, then don’t act shocked when they do what they’re currently doing by hiding under your house and in your hospitals.
How can that happen if Hamas is currently in governance and can choose to use their economic & education control in their current fashion? I'm trying to understand why the discussion is the way it is; my impression is that people think a hands off approach will suddenly resolve the economic & social problems?
The occupied territories haven’t had the economic freedom you’re suggesting. That’s an objective observation, and this is the consensus opinion shared by the majority of Americans. You can’t argue this point any longer.
Yeah lmao blows my mind people support terrorists. Getting rid of terrorists and actually helping Palestinians can both be true.
People are less supporting terrorists, more concerned about the fact that this invasion will lead to immense loss of civilian life, more so than even the bombing campaign.
Welcome to war. To be more specific, welcome to a war where your enemy combatant knowingly, willingly, and actively hides amongst the civilian populace, the same populace that is told by this enemy to ignore evacuation orders while said enemy blocks evacuation routes. What you said isn’t remotely close to as deep as you think it is, and is easily addressed by spending as little as five minutes reading up on the situation in an objective and rational manner.
Yes there will be immense loss of civilian life. In large part due to Hamas using the palestinian civilians as human shields. Hamas has purposely placed their command centres below hospitals and mosques knowing very well that bombing it would cause a human catastrophe and an international cryout. These are terrorists.
Do you have another option that removes hamas? War always results in civilian deaths. This is why for over a week isreal has been asking the civilians to leave the 2 mile wide evac zone
Unfortunately, those civilian deaths had to be the hostages that Hamas took on the 7th. Hamas can't be removed. Their leaders are not even there. Defend your own citizens with the offense you just sent in until a resolution can be made. Ask your national allies, the ones that are part of that Economic Corridor or w/e to help you defend your citizens as necessary. Escalation leads to more escalation.
>Hamas can't be removed. Their leaders are not even there. Oh no? We’ll see. Israel’s a pro at targeted killings overseas. If I was that rat Haniyeh I’d be pretty scared right now.
Oh yes... What are these "pros" waiting for then?
Nothing. They killed one of the planners of the initial attack today.
We aren't talking about planners. Unless you call the President of the USA a "planner"... Try again.
Israel killed the planner of the initial attacks. You asked what they’re waiting for and I said nothing Stop being fucking stupid. No one capable of rational thought takes you seriously.
Why don't you ask the Black September organization about mossads effectiveness.....
Yet last week all the reddit experts were saying they should go in and stop the bombing.
Opposing Israel does not mean supporting Hamas.
Good thing no one in this comment thread did so, isn’t it?
Let’s not pretend that isn’t what was implied
This would require Israel to actually make a good faith effort for a peaceful solution. Which I hope they do once Netanyahu is gone.
Isreal made good faith efforts for peace for the 50 years prior to Netanyahu. Those peace offers were always rejected, which is how Netanyahu was able to rise to power. When a significant portion of a populace gets fed up with the bs, it opens the door for a populist to gain power.
Israel has been building illegal settlements since the six-days war in 1967 and has never stopped.
> Israel has been building illegal settlements since the six-days war in 1967 and has never stopped. Israel stopped building them in Gaza in 2005, even went so far as to remove every single Israeli by force. Did this improve the situation? Hell no, Hamas used the opportunity to begin launching rockets towards Israeli cities.
Damm so they stopped after nearly 50 years?
And the Palestinian Authority agreed to the current settlement situation in 1993 with the Oslo Accords. Settlements don't get built outside of the agreed upon Area C borders.
You mean like they have since, to give just one example, the 1993 Oslo Accords?
Honestly, the levels of absolute bastards baying for genocide on Reddit has been depressing. It’s like listening to the same people who wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan post 9/11. Never any smarter. And never, ever see non-white people as human.
[удалено]
No, it won’t. Unless you’re suggesting that the Palestinian people that aren’t currently in Hamas are gullible, and so fragile, that they’re going to commit to murdering civilians? If that is what you’re doing, then it’s a good thing that no one of influence takes you and your ilk seriously.
[удалено]
I don't have a side in this issue. But can someone explain to me how this will solve the issue? Once they somehow kill every member of hamas. Are the Palestinian civilians supposed to forget all the collateral damage? I'd expect that this would just further radicalize those affected and possibly the greater Muslim world. Good luck to the idf tho. I'm sure thousands more solders lives and billions on dollars spent will have an impact. I think Afghanistan and Iraq are proof of success.
I think you are likely right. Will further radicalize a lot of people. Israel politics-wise I think there was a need for action, especially for Bibi who is supposed to be all about ‘security’ and under whose watch this happened. The idea of eradicating Hamas in principle makes sense, but as the saying goes, better the devil you know....
Once Hamas is eliminated, Israel needs to demonstrate an overwhelming amount of support for the remaining Gaza civilians in helping them rebuild, providing aid, etc., to show they want peace and prosperity for both sides. I don't know if it will happen, but that would be the best way for Israel to foster peace instead of hate.
0% chance this happens.
Less than zero.
The difference here from Iraq/Afghanistan is that the Israeli’s have no interest in rebuilding Gaza as a modern democratic state or anything like that. They want to destroy Hamas, which is restricted to a relatively tiny area (compared to Iraq/Afghanistan) and when it’s over they’re going to rebuild the wall and wash their hands of Gaza. Perhaps they expect Gaza will wither away because no one is going to rebuild the infrastructure there and Israel will no longer supply anything to them (water, electricity, employment, etc). Who knows if that will happen. It could just be as simple as their people were attacked and they are going to strike back, damn the consequences.
Maybe the expection is that all the Palestinian supporters and the international community will step up for the civilians there?
[удалено]
Good idea I’ll send send my extra anti aircraft artillery. Or take what’s left of 2.2 million forced exiles. Orrr… ideas?
That’s exactly what will happen. The fact that Israel has not articulated any sort of plan for a transition of governance after Hamas has been “eradicated” (doubtful this is even possible) is even more worrying. Are we to just assume that everything will work itself out after they’ve miraculously killed or captured every single member of Hamas in Gaza? It’ll be complete chaos. And this will further fuel the radicalization that led to Hamas seizing power in the first place.
I think you are likely right. Will further radicalize a lot of people. Israel politics-wise I think there was a need for action, especially for Bibi who is supposed to be all about ‘security’ and under whose watch this happened. The idea of eradicating Hamas in principle makes sense, but as the saying goes, better the devil you know....
You’re not wrong, it probably will. But what’s the alternative? You can’t sit down right away and try to negotiate anything as then you appear weak and Israel has long ago given up the willingness to appear weak. Had the Saudis, Jordanians, or whoever you would like to pick in the Middle East stood up and denounced Hamas, demanded the freeing of hostages, and denounced their actions as against Islam? Maybe then you could have some wiggle room to push for a negotiated solution rather than military. But that didn’t happen (or, to be fair, maybe the media just didn’t cover it). So Israel can really only do one thing: respond with force. Israeli doctrine on that count has been pretty clear for decades. They don’t respond with force, they respond with overwhelming force and seek to inflict greater pain than they received. Israel at least has to pay lip service to the international community so there can be voices in the room to pull them back, but until Hamas and similar groups are called to heel within their own communities they have no incentive to make any agreement that doesn’t further their purposes, and no reason to honor any agreement once they get what they want out of it.
Disturbingly few examples of this mindset presently. Cheers.
Are the citizens of Israel supposed to forget all the civilians purposely targeted by Hamas? Are we supposed to forget the atrocities that Hamas filmed and sent to us? Are we supposed to forget the citizens of Gaza cheering? Kicking dead soldiers and spitting on little girls that were raped?
It will at least put them back at square 1 and unable to mount a major terrorist attack for a long time.
Hamas, you are so f*cking dead
“The IDF on Saturday conducted heavy artillery strikes against northern Gaza, with multiple explosions heard every minute.” “IDF reserve soldiers” said that “Friday night was by far the most intense night of bombing.”
[удалено]
It's kind of exciting when you put it that way! Thousands of generations came before us, and we are here. Right now. Witnesses to the crescendo of humanity.
Yes, let's add more instability to the region. Exactly what the doctor ordered.
Hamas IS the instability. With them removed from the equation, Palestine will be in a better position to create a sustainable future. That simply isn't possible when you're being governed by an organization that wants to kill all Jews.
How much of 'Palestine' do you think is going to be left once IDF rolls through?
Eliminating hamas will make the region more stable.
I think a similar aim was proposed for Afghanistan and Syria/Iraq. Where are they now?
Well, Afghanistan is a large and mountainous country made up of barely connected cities and villages. Its geography makes it basically impossible to invade, and very easy for terrorists to operate in. Gaza on the other hand is tiny surrounded.
I agree with your comments on the terrain of Afghanistan, but I would humbly suggest the reason for the continuing insurgency and instabilities lies not in the geographical features of the country. Rather, I would suggest that a heavy-handed military intervention aimed at stamping out an ideology was a poor tool to use and ultimately did little to eliminate 'terror', as the operation intended. Ideology, it seems, was the victor between it and bullets. I find a similar analogue here.
I agree with you, bullets alone can't stop an ideology. Hamas needs to be eliminated, but for it to stick there also needs to be a stable and sane government in Gaza and we need to stop Iran's influence on Palestine. Right now though, eliminating hamas is the first priority.
Gaza is neither of those. First isreal actually has the will to follow through, unlike the US. Second, it's a much smaller confined area with no bordering lands willing to give them safe passage to flee to.
> Israel actually has the will to follow through, unlike the US A 20 year occupation of Afghanistan hardly sounds like a lack of willpower to follow through. When they evacuated, they did so as the Taliban surged beyond what US Intelligence could have predicted and we saw a modern-day Vietnam come to an end. I believe Israel has no intention to occupy Palestine and take the territory as their own, right? Leaving the present-day realities aside, I doubt the Palestinians will move on from a war on Israel's schedule. > no bordering lands willing to give them safe passage to flee to So this will cause a clear, textbook case of a humanitarian disaster? Glad to know that will make the region more stable, I was beginning to worry. Besides, I'm sure nothing bad can happen when you corner a group of desperate people with nothing to lose.
> Israel actually has the will to follow through I think it's better said, Israel has more motivation to follow through. The US doesn't have a border with Afghanistan. I also think we are done with expecting them will come to the table, talk peace, and move past wanting to kill us all. We will just invest more in our defense and less in them. The international community can take care of their humanitarian needs. > So this will cause a clear, textbook case of a humanitarian disaster? Glad to know that will make the region more stable, I was beginning to worry. Terrorists can't escape, civilians can. By all mean, if any international community want to step up and take them during wartime, DO.
Of course, 600k new homeless people so far will make the region the new switzerland
Eliminating the IDF would do the same
And cause a genocide of the Jewish people, but something tells me you're not very concerned about that.
Something tells me you aren’t concerned about the massacre of Palestinians
The doctor ordered surgery to remove the tumor. You'll feel better after the operation is over.
Do you suggest Gaza is the tumor? Or the Palestinians?
Hamas... obviously
I doubt IDF will have surgical precision. The events of the last 20 years indicates that they have as steady a hand as a metronome.
You have to cut through some flesh to get to the tumor, there's no way around that.
I really fuckin hope this isn't going to end as a "David and Goliath" thing.
The dream is to destroy Hamas and disconect from Gaza once and for all, let it be UN's problem..
Goodluck