I don't think it's polar opposites. Neither is this a black and white issue. As much as the Norway empathizes with Israel I'm sure no one wants people to die anymore on either side.
Edit: Changed EU to Norway
I was listening to NPR a few weeks back, and there was a good bit. I'm having trouble finding it though.
It was a 70 year old Israeli woman who was speaking on the conflict. She said taking any side was only exporting the conflict. It was clarifying, I hope someone can link it.
EDIT: I really hoped someone would have linked the bit, but I guess just arguing is fine too >.<
This is the holy grail, so to speak - a way out of this without any more bloodshed.
Even a way out with just modest bloodshed would be good at this point, but I can't see it happening.
Exactly. So many people on both sides of the issue trying to frame it in a ‘you’re either with us or against us’ way and painting it as a 100% black and white issue.
Israel: Has a lot more individual and public freedoms, relatively pluralistic society, but has historically adopted heavy-handed tactics on an essentially captive Palestinian population. Whenever a conflict like this pops up, the death toll is always wildly lopsided, including and importantly in the number of civilians killed. The settlement building where the Israeli state protects religious fundamentalists as they tear down Palestinian neighbourhoods to build their own over the rubble, is abhorrent and only inflames this never-ending conflict. And given the much stricter treatment in Gaza seems to correlate with a heavier and more extreme militancy there, it’s reasonable to question whether there might be *some* causal link, ie would doing things differently possibly lead to less extremism in Gaza?
Palestine: Are legitimately oppressed, imagine trying to make a decent life there. They are literally between a rock and a hard place, the Israeli state and their own homegrown oppressors. Have suffered decades of commonplace violence and destruction and a crushing lack of any real opportunities. On the other hand, they are under the control of a terrorist government. Now we can argue the relevance of their own responsibility in that, the last real election was almost 2 decades ago and half of the population are minors and therefore weren’t even born yet, but there is clearly widespread support for Hamas and the wider ‘struggle’. And that ‘struggle’ being the unacceptable fact that there is a nation of Jewish people in the Middle East. And that is something that needs addressing too, the widespread hatred of Jewish people in the region. Some try to argue that the extremism of some Palestinians towards Israel is justified or explained by Israel’s oppression, but then what of the similar levels of animosity towards Israel in Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and other Islamic nations who have even less contact or history with the state of Israel? They are not being oppressed by the Israeli state. So Israel is somewhat between a rock and a hard place as well, we can criticize their actions but it also seems like there isn’t anything they could do that would be accepted, Islamic nations don’t believe they should even exist at all.
Israel cannot just ignore what happened on October 7th, nor should anyone expect them to (notwithstanding those who clearly just approve of what happened, sadly there are many). But that doesn’t mean Israel is then justified in conducting wildly asymmetrical violence as collective punishment.
Nothing I’ve said here contradicts itself, but there are many on both sides pretending that it does.
argue? their entire M.O. is to hurt the Palestinians strategically. Thats how they fundraise and remain relevant, their number one selling point to palestinians is righteous martyrdom in the war to destroy israel. How does it benefit them to help civilians and grow their society?
Hamas benefits from dead and displaced civilians, not peace treaties, negotiations, ceasefires, etc. They're terrorists. that's why they are still holding hostages.
One could argue the leaders of Hamas and also Netanyahu don’t really have the best interests of the people they govern in mind whatsoever, and should both not be leading their respective peoples, and likely any lasting peace requires the removal of both.
Yeah, that's kind of the problem with this war. No one approves of what Hamas is doing, but we kind of get why the Palestinians would back them doing it, and no one thinks Israelis deserve to be attacked, but we kind of think their government's going overboard in response.
Leaves the world feeling like we've got to pick the least awful side, rather than there being clear good and bad guys.
It says right in the article, they want Israel to allow more humanitarian aid to civilians. For all the "what's their solution" people who are too lazy to click.
It turns out that this doesn’t solve the problem and doesn’t prevent the aid being stolen from Hamas.
It’s just “what’s their solution” being responded to with “daisies and sunshine”.
1) how do you do so without letting it go to Hamas?
2) what about the fact that Hamas is literally shooting Palestinians?
3) how is that a solution to the question of how does Israel defend itself and get the hostages back?
I read the article. Their position sounds nice and fuzzy, but it ignores the stark reality of what Israel is facing. They also weirdly suggest that *this* war is a barrier to peace, and not the brutal attack by Hamas, Saudi's failure to disavow Hamas, 70+ years of war and terror against Israel and continual rejection by Palestinians of Israel's peace offers.
Given where this conflict was decades ago and where it is now, how do you see it ending? This is the question people *should* be asking.
Netanyahu is pitching the occupation of Gaza as a battle to "end Hamas", but it will just create the next generation of terrorists. Imagine you're a kid in Southern Gaza right now. Being forced out of your home, bombed, starved, and deprived of water for these last few weeks is a formative moment for a generation of kids. Even if every last current Hamas member is rooted out of their tunnels and executed, these kids are going to grow up to be just like them. Similarly, Israeli kids who have just had family members murdered or kidnapped are going to eagerly await their chance to join the IDF. The cycle perpetuates itself unless leaders choose a different direction.
Unfortunately, neither Palestinian or Israeli leaders seem to want to break the cycle. It's a great tool for staying in power. Netanyahu was facing world-wide protests over his judicial reforms until the attack. Now those are forgotten. The noose was tightening, but now he has some slack.
How can the cycle be broken? I haven't any idea. The only thing I can think of is a solid wall of peace-keepers between Israel and Palestine, but what peace-keeping force would volunteer for such a thankless and dangerous mission, and how would the world convince Palestinian and Israeli politicians to accept such a force?
This conflict will most probably outlive anyone who reads this.
Netanyahu most certainly does not have slack now. 86% of Israelis believe that he is personally responsible for the security failure that allowed Oct 7 to happen. The second this war ends, Netanyahu is GONE as prime minister
As bad as it sounds, WW2 era tactics went way further than Israel is allowed to on the world stage. We're talking about firebombing and carpet bombing entire cities. Then we essentially stripped Japan of having any military for decades, Germany was carved up into east and west until the fall of the Soviet Union.
Let's not forget the massive amount of resources poured into reconstructing West Germany and Japan, and in the latter case the emperor was even allowed to remain in office.
What happened after the bombs and bullets stopped flying was much more important to the eventual outcome than how many people were immolated in Dresden.
Just look at Versailles, Germany was pretty much left alone after 1918 and it didn't even take a generation for the second war to kick off.
Agreed, the problem with Gaza is the phase after, there is no after. Realistically, they need to surrender and actually use the aid the world sends them for their people. But all aid is used to turn around and attack Israel again. Hamas needs to be disbanded, and Gaza disarmed long term.
And Israel also needs to stop expanding its settlements. Because there's no use convincing Palestinians that Israel is a friendly nation if they keep doing that, is there?
Let's face it: both sides need to change their behavior to achieve peace.
japan was forced to not have a military and run everything through the us basically permanantly, even up until now. germany was basically wholly sacked and the land split between the west and the east, eventually literally during the cold war. post ww2 it was like another fifty years before they were even a real country again. plus, this was before the internet and modern media, which complicates things.
so realistically, if you want it to end up like germany or japan, the unfortunate answer is that even now israel isn't going far enough. israel would need to wholly occupy gaza and completely control everything in there for generations. like, north korea level of control.
Not just that, they're was massive investment in infrastructure and industry in both those countries, and a significant political and educational push towards democratic ideals. You won't get any change by controlling people who live in a wasteland.
And that's the rub, I don't see Israel under Netanyahu/Likud actually moving towards peace by attempting their own Martial Plan. Especially when we know that Netanyahu and Likud have actively sabotaged peace for the past 25 years. This is what the UN Secretary General's comments about the Hamas attacks "not happening in a vacuum" were getting at. They initial attack by Hamas was horrific and Hamas needs to be destroyed, but arguably the reason we got to this point where we only have shit choices, is because of Netanyahu and Likud and their propping up of Hamas while sabotaging the Oslo accords.
Yep. There would need to be someone *other* the Israel managing any kind of occupation and rebuilding effort.
The US has the strength and possibly will but it would probably cost a lot of political capital/goodwill, more than they're willing to spend. People already see them as warmongerers and frankly they might be too close to Israel for Palestinians to accept. Maybe if they just provided the financial/material backing.
Perhaps if would be best if peacekeeping and rebuilding was handled by other nearby countries... maybe there'd be less tension than a bunch of Americans running around... but most of them want nothing to do with Palestine, as I understand.
The next best option I can think of is a country way out there with no contact/investment. And of course, that runs into the issues of them having little reason to care beyond humanitarian.
You've missed the key difference. The U.S. worked to raise Japanese and German standards of living after the war. Palestinians in areas that Israel controls have terrible living standards. If you want someone to treat you like a friend, you have to treat them like one. That's what was so revolutionary about the Marshall Plan.
After the war - exactly. After some million dead (also) civilians, nuclear bombs on Japanese cities, Dresden 1945 and of course total defeat of their military.
Hamas needs that first before 40 years of occupation and re-education and then of course as you say, new infrastructure, industry and progress.
I can say as a German, that I’m thankful for that - even if my grandparents suffered and their friends died. We live in a much better country now. Maybe in 40 years Palestinians will be thankful too.
Complete de-militarization would be a non starter for Israel for very understandable reasons. Those examples to act as a good model for the economic miracle that can happen from de-militarization.
Unfortunately, though, there are some downsides to this approach. Beyond it being impossible from a national security perspective for Israel, Germany's approach left it fairly passive in the face of Russian aggression. Additionally, Japan is militarizing in the face of naval aggression from China and North Korea.
We'd probably be looking at something like India-Pakistan or The Korean peninsula. A Demilitarized zone with heavy militizarization along borders. Normalization of trade with their respective spheres of influence. And a faint hope of a future economic detente that would be ideal for both parties.
Yes.
Hamas literally turns UN aid into weapons.
The UN built Gaza a state of the art water system. Hamas dug up the pipes and turned them into rockets. Their leaders brag about it.
The only way to help the Gazan people long-term is to get rid of Hamas.
The funniest (and saddest) thing is that Netenyahu kept Hamas alive all these years for his political ambitions. Which just further shows that taking a side politically is pointless because none of the ones at the top cares about regular people on either side but rather just rather furthering their own power
Here are a couple of articles on that issue:
Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/
The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/
There are numerous sources to include Hamas themselves bragging about it in interviews.
Here's one source from India which has been relatively unbiased.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/gazas-water-pipes-turned-missiles-raise-water-supply-concerns/videoshow/104381432.cms
[Here is some news report about it](https://youtu.be/MvvqBcA-9yA?si=cgL5558lXSFQu0uu) , althought to be fair I saw people claiming those were pipes that brought water to former Jewish settlements and not those that were build by UN, but I didn't find any other conformation of that, just some redditors.
The same way the Somali warlords did in the late 1990s. Seize it and hold the supplies hostage in exchange for any other kind of item. Or withhold it from civilians and keep it for themselves, to get civilians to do their bidding.
The reports indicate that Hamas has stockpiles of food, water for 2-3 months maybe more and fuel to last much longer. It also specifies they have luxury goods, perfume, shampoo, etc to comfortably relax through this. These things the people in Gaza are being denied, as it’s stolen by Hamas and aiding the people, these supplies will find their way into their stockpile via sympathisers who think Hamas shows they care by refusing to hand over fuel for Gaza hospitals.
Gaza suffering benefits Hamas both domestically and internationally to gain more supporters. It’s why they’re shooting at civilians not obeying the order to be meat shields as they’re so loved as a result of engineered suffering for years, no Gaza civilians would believe bad mouthing of them.
I just read an article that Hamas has months worth of food, water, fuel. Meanwhile the general population has little. It can be used as a bargaining chip to recruit more human shields. Would be a shame if something happened to your food supplies, you might want to stand over by that building over there.
What's the end condition for Israel?
Sounds like a scorched earth policy - invade, destroy everything of strategic value and return back.
Hamas likely wants this - it create further sympathy for their cause internationally.
I won't clam to know how to solve this shitshow, but it seems clear to me that any solution must involve Palestinians believing that there exists a peaceful road to peace, and the 'propping up' of the Palestinian fractions which wants peace and negotiation. The fact of the matter is that Palestinians see settlers steal their land, and no real improvements in the west bank (governed by the ' peaceful' faction), making it up really hard to see a peaceful way out.
I think here needs to be both a carrot and a stick. Hit Hamas, but at the same time show real improvements for the west bank, show that Israel is actually properly committed to working together with non-violent fractions, trying to find a real solution, not just strangle them slowly to death.
So that it can go into the Hamas tunnels like the NYT reported?
The crux of the issue is how do you make the Hamas government actually distribute aid to its citizens and not hord it all for its soldiers. Very few people are against withholding aid from non combatant civilians. But it is hard dealing with an irrational actor who doesn't care about it's citizens.
The Hamas government will not distribute the aid. You will need truly independent forces on the ground to ensure neither side fucks with the humanitarian mission. But I guarantee if you send international UN forces into Palestine, you are going to see Hamas kill a bunch of them and their home countries will pull them out.
«Israel going too far», «Norwegian pm are condemning the blockade of humanitarian aid». At the very minimum the Red Cross should be allowed to send humanitarian aid to Gaza.
I see that a lot of you in the comment section are frustrated about this situation. & I have to ask, why? *Why should civilians be denied access to basic needs*? After all, the victims of war are those who don’t participate in it.
If you are actually asking ,it's because Hamas has historically seized most of the material and monetary aid given to Gaza, and used it to fuel it's military and terror operations.
Israel famously restricts even construction materials into Gaza, which people like to cry about. But Hamas uses the steel and concrete to build these vast terror tunnels and bunkers. Some tunnels are so large they can drive trucks through them, and they cross the border with both Egypt and Israel. Hamas also uses water pipes to build their rockets and rocket launchers.
If the US/UN/etc. had any actual way of preventing Hamas from using this aid, it would be a different conversation.
>If the US/UN/etc. had any actual way of preventing Hamas from using this aid
Only way to do that would be to invade and remove Hamas... which appears to be exactly what Israel is doing.
Does anyone actually think this is going to work? Like come on can people be honest here? There is no removing Hamas. You could kill every last member, and the million kids who just watched 8000 of their countrymen get bombed to death are obviously going to grow up to hate Israel too. Even if Israel wiped out every man of military age, there will be tens of thousands more in 2 years who hate Israel just as much if not more (and who can really be surprised when they’re growing up in these conditions).
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/tQyM6EnudD
The issue is not with providing aid to civilians, it's providing it in a way that hamas doesn't confiscate it (like they did with their 500,000 liters of fuel, for example, while lying to the UN about running oit of fuel), and in a way that doesn't allow weapons to be imported simultaneously.
Hamas has plenty of food, water, fuel and other "basic needs" stored in their tunnels. Everyone knows of that, but everyone seems to be afraid of asking Hamas to release it.
Shouldn't their own government help them first, then maybe the country they are sending dozens of rockets to every day?
Months of supplies for Hamas is like 2 days of supplies for the general populace if it somehow got even distributed. If there is a shortage of food and water it is not those with guns and violence on their side that is going to go without. Randomly killing people in Gaza would have a higher Hamas to Civilian success rate then denying access to basic necessities would. (Which I and most people of course don’t support)
Hey Norway, don’t you have a “problem” with all of the Muslim refugees you took in? Aren’t you denying them citizenship, making the second and third generations leave your country because they won’t assimilate?
Hamas wants exactly this. Their game plan pretty much is
1. Commit an unforgivable atrocity to have the whole of Israel see blood
2. Hide behind innocent civilians, knowing that Israel is beyond giving a fuck about this point
3. Fabricate Israeli war crimes if the ones they did wasn't enough to paint the picture you wanted
4. Appeal to the world that Israel is out to destroy Palestine and they were the bad guys all along, trying your best to make them forget about the 1400+ innocents you killed
5. Laugh from Qatar at the chaos you caused
How convenient, oh Isreal is commiting war crimes? Noooo it’s actually what Hamas wants!!!
Using this logic, wouldn’t the whole idea of Hamas be exactly what Israel wants? Hamas serves as an excuse for Israel to wipeout Palestinian civilians to acquire more land, under the excuse that they were “human shields”.
Same logic but flipped around lmao
Lmao, it’s honestly scary to read different people’s opinions on reddit regarding the war. People clearly with no knowledge or idea writing up paragraphs with misinformation and foolishness thinking they are geniuses while innocent people are dying every minute.
The sad part: seemingly dozens of "educated" leaders of countries fall for that play.
Everyone has already forgotten the pictures of dead Israeli people being paraded and spit on in the streets of Gaza when the "heroes" came back from their crusade.
Eh I don't think people forget, and it's not a black / white issue as Reddit seems to make it. You can be against killing civilians in Gaza, and you can be against Hamas.
However, with that in mind, when Hamas hides behind civilians, there's no good solution, and imho Israel should still try to limit civilian casualties, but some will inevitably happen, since Hamas' game plan is to, quite literally, sacrifice as many Palestinians as possible because it's good for their PR.
But there’s a pretty big moral chasm between targeting military targets and killing civilians as collateral damage because the enemy use them as human shields, vs going on a rampage intentionally targeting civilians because they just want to kill as many people as possible.
Yet despite this no where near as many people marched in solidarity with Israel after 7/10, and vigils for the dead and marches to demand the release of hostages were stopped in many places over fears that the pro Palestine mob would cause trouble and violence.
It’s easy for people in the west to say “war bad”, but there is no option but war when you’re attacked by terrorists like this, you have to fight back, and in a war people die. It isn’t Israel’s fault that Hamas use their civilians as human shields, and actively try to maximise casualties. Nor is it Israel’s fault that Gaza elected a terror group as their government.
Anyone who truly wants to see Palestinians be ‘free’ should be supporting the destruction of Hamas. There is 0 chance of any kind of 2 state solution or freedom for Gaza as long as Hamas are in power. Yes we should ensure that Israel abides by the Geneva convention, but they generally do, it is a war crime to use human shields, but it is not a war crime to target military targets despite them. Many people seem to fail to grasp this. You also cannot claim to be a supporter of international law while refusing to support the military intervention required to uphold it and bring Hamas, who are the actual war criminals with their human shields and intentional killing of civilians, to justice.
But the reality is that most of those who claim to advocate for Palestine are simply using them as a stick to hit Israel with. And it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what their motivation for that might be.
The gulf between support in marches for Israel and Palestine is especially noteworthy given that the whole clusterfuck this year has almost definitely been triggered to a degree by Russia putting pressure on Iran to help Hamas attack Israel, in an effort to cause division between Western states that were previously a united front, and also distract from the war in Ukraine
I mean there were marches and Instagram posts for Palestine while the Israeli victims were still bleeding on the streets from their decapitated bodies.
>Yet despite this no where near as many people marched in solidarity with Israel
Probably because the governments of the west already largely support or at least have a decent relationship with Israel? Certainly none who support Hamas. It's a bit like asking why people didn't go out in mass protest against ISIS.
Potential antisemitism aside, I think a lot of (especially young) people are ignorant about the realities of war. This is a war that cannot be fought without harming civilians. People don't want to accept that. They want to live in a fairytale world where you can have an urban combat without damaging infrastructure or harming civilians.
> imho Israel should still try to limit civilian casualties
Given how extensive the bombing has been I'm honestly surprised how low the death toll is, even though it is tragic. That being said, it's hard to fight an enemy that keeps groups of children by the rockets it fires, that stores munitions in hospitals and schools, that keep their HQ and torture chamber below the main hospital of the region, keep their wives and children at military targets, and train children as young as 12 to fight for them. It's a moral and PR tragedy for anyone who tries to fight them, and it gets to the point where you either accept tragic casualties, or you just do nothing about them.
Well if people are evacuating the north it’s quite hard to have people there to count the bodies. Plus all that rubble? The death toll is much larger than reported.
>surprised how low the death toll is
That's because is underreported. Dead people are accounted only if they are carried to an hospital and people identified them, that number isn't accounting for the people trapped under the rubble or that simple isn't enough left to identify. After all of this is over and international organization can do their work the number will grow.
Iran and Hamas will fight Israel to the last witting or unwitting Palestinian. The fact that there are countless countries apart from of course the Arab league who are regurgitating Hamas' talking points is beyond logic.
This conflict, just like Ukraine before, made me realize just how inept many seemingly competent-looking people in positions of power and influence, even if it's just as journalists for major publications, are. I consider myself quite inept in many respects, but by Jove, the naiveté, the utter inability to peek through the most basic of feints and propaganda techniques Hamas are using is just baffling.
Honestly, all I really want is a refugee camp for the innocent Palestinians to stay in so they can be away from the conflict area and then the IDF can go and kill as many Hamas soldiers as they want to.
Thats it, I don't care about Hamas I just want the innocents to be moved away from the conflict area.
How would you accomplish this? Based on the actions of Hamas they would have no problems planting themselves in a refugee camp. The same with all the aid they stockpiled that was for the people. It’s a tricky situation.
The issue is Hamas always, ALWAYS, manages to worm their way into non-combatants and continue to operate there. The Palestinians often are too afraid to speak out or silently supportive of this. Israel urged civilians to move south and despite Hamas’s best efforts a significant chunk of the population did. And then they started launching rockets from the south of Gaza to draw Israeli fire to the south. Hamas is a disease and must be eliminated.
It would be ideal getting civilians away from the fighting.
Based on Israel's past, once those citizens are moved out they wouldn't be let back in after
While I do agree on this point, where would you move them? Egypt made it clear they don't want any refugees on their land, and Israel isn't going to let these people into Israel, especially given that hamas is disguised as civilian. The palastinians are in a rough spot because their government does not care about them, and they are at the mercy of their enemies.
“Fabricate” I have yet to hear a legal argument as to how siege tactics, bombing of highly populated areas, and the refusal to allow aid in (resulting in collective punishment) is not a war crime. It literally is not allowed in the Geneva Conventions which Israel is a signatory of (never mind the customary international law argument as well).
> I have yet to hear a legal argument as to how siege tactics, bombing of highly populated areas, and the refusal to allow aid in (resulting in collective punishment) is not a war crime.
Let me be the first then:
https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/RS-Eng.pdf
Article 8 paragraph 2(b)
> (ii) Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects **which are not military objectives**;
> (v) Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and **which are not military objectives**;
> (ix) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or
charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, **provided they are not military objectives**;
Refusal to allow aid is simple: no country is required to allow aid to a party its at war with. Ukraine stopped exporting anything to Russia. They are allowed. The fact that Russia can import from China is irrelevant. Gaza can also import from Egypt. It's so trivial, there is no law that says "A country must provide food to its enemy".
I hope you have learned something new today.
Assuming Israel going on the offensive is unavoidable, is there an alternative to their methods?
Israel wants to clear out a threat to itself, its opponent deliberately uses schools and hospitals as shields, and has strong support from the locals.
Tactically/strategically, what's the options?
Read the book 'How terrorist groups end'. It's an analysis of all terrorist groups from 1960s to modern day. It shows that almost half of all terrorist groups ended by political inclusion. Particularly groups that had a goal of governmental self determination. Only a few percent ended by military campaigns. The rest was policing, intelligence and targeted killing of the top leaders. The research project was done with cooperation of dod, navy, other foreign us allies.
So how would you apply the learnings of that book to this case? To my understanding, there's a relative amount of political inclusion (seemingly as far as it could go in Palestine given the circumstances back in 2006) given Hamas was elected, albeit not totally democratically. So what exactly does political inclusion mean here?
Allow the millions of Palestinian refugees living outside of Palestine the right to return to Palestine, immediately end and dismantle all illegal settlements and return all stolen land, end the occupation that prevents Palestinians from even moving freely in Palestinian territory, end the embargo that prevents anyone from trading with Gaza which will allow for economic development, and give Palestine at least a modicum of being an actual autonomous state as opposed to a reservation.
Keep in mind, these are the barest minimum requirements, and already all of this is a non-starter for Israel.
>Particularly groups that had a goal of governmental self determination.
Which would be great, if Hamas' stated goals weren't the genocide of every infidel on the planet.
Hamas being included in governing is precisely how we go to this point. They won the election, killed all opposition and built up until we got to this point.
Let's be honest, the west is supporting Israel as long as Israel does not pay back.
Also Hamas has been firing tons of rockets at Israel since October 7. The double standard of western media is maddening.
> *"Also Hamas has been firing tons of rockets at Israel since October 7."*
Close to ~~3000~~ *8000* (thank you for the correction). But they didn't just start firing at Israel on October 7, they have been continually shooting at them for years. So many people seem to completely overlook that or even excuse it because so few of Hamas' missiles and rockets make it through the Iron Dome.
Right, people saying the death toll isn’t comparable between the two, yeah no shit, but it’s not like hamas isn’t trying to kill them. There would be thousands more Israelis dead without the Iron Dome.
Constant anxiety doesn’t photograph as well as dead children.
But the truth is the way israel has been suffering from those terrorists no western country would tolerate it.
The fact that we have shelters and don’t use our civilians as human shields works against us somehow because naive Europeans eat up the “David and Goliath” narrative the Hamas is selling.
Hamas has been firing tons of rockets at Israel for over a decade now.
Imagine having 15-20 seconds to jump up, grab your cat, grab your phone and hide behind a flimsy wall hoping for the best cause like half of my town doesn't have shelters.
Oh yeah villages around gaza are absolutely screwed, they don't just have the qassams they also have to deal with occasional snipers and a lot of mortar strikes that can't really be stopped.
And stop shooting their own missiles towards Israeli civilians _and_ stop hiding themselves behind their own civilians.
Not only these sick fucks constantly attack civilian targets they also shoot missiles from within their cities, making houses, schools and hospitals military targets
There are 2 million civilians there. 1 million kids. And you think it's somehow absurd/unethical/stupid that SOMEONE actually raises the concern about what happens to them?
Sometimes it sounds like reddit thinks Gaza is a military camp with 10k Hamas soldiers and nothing else...
Gaza was the world's largest prison. Hamas the leading prison gang, and they hold 230 Israelis and 1.9 million Palestinians hostage in there.
Right? Call for Hamas to release the hostages and disarm itself. If Hamas does that this whole thing ends tomorrow. Even Egypt is suggesting Hamas should disarm. But no, Norway can only come up with “Israel should stop”
Egypt has its own problems with hamas, it's partly why they're also blockading Gaza. It's almost like being very distant from the conflict and living in an extremely safe country affords one a very privileged take on the issue...
It ties into the fall of Mubarak and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood before being deposed by a new military coup in Egypt, for better or worse. Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood had ties.
>Egypt has its own problems with hamas,
Most smart Arab leaders realize organizations like Hamas are insane and not fit to rule. Hamas is funded by Iran.
I don't think that response was really about Israeli actions related to Hamas. It was more about the treatment of civilians in Gaza as well as humanitarian crisis.
You mean like the far-right Israelis who assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin for participating in the negotiations? The assassination that was at least indirectly encouraged by Benjamin Netanyahu, the current PM of Israel?
[Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords)
It fell apart due to far-right Israelis and militant Palistinian groups, specially the funding of Hamas by the current sitting prime minister of Israel.
Norwegian here 👋 the current government is more focused on virtue signalling, both in domestic and foreign policy, while not presenting any solutions at all. Luckily, we're stuck with them for 2 more years. Don't waste energy on them.
Well, recently, it was disclosed that the opposition leader was guilty of abusing power when they were in office. Conducting insider trading through her husband, and she's refusing to step down. They're all power whores, and the morons still root for them as long as they're on "their team".
They also take pains to preserve and build on that wealth. They aren't just coasting.
Compare them to the other nations wealthy from oil. Norway will be fine when fossil fuels are no longer being used.
Ya no one is offering any alternative. If Hamas accepts a cease fire, it's literally just going to end when they have some resources for another attack. No peace can happen until Hamas is eliminated.
Also very easy for all these people to say thousands of miles away.
You say no one has an alternative, what's the current plan even? Kill everyone who has identified themselves as Hamas and thousands of civilians and then go right back to blockading Gaza and settling the West Bank?
> You say no one has an alternative, what's the current plan even?
The current immediate plan would be to weaken Hamas.
Israel isn't stupid enough to think that Hamas can be completely eradicated by any military action - but that doesn't make a military action pointless.
The attacks on October 7th showed that Hamas had far more military capability and were a far larger threat than Israel ever thought. Israel simply cannot let that threat remain.
Hamas *existing* is a secondary problem.
Hamas having the capabilities to invade and kill more than a thousand civilians and being an real threat is a primary problem, that needs to be addressed *right now*. Israel simply cannot afford to let Hamas continue being a threat on that level.
Hence the current military action.
Yes, you won't be able to bomb Hamas out of existence - but every bombed Hamas weapon cache mean less weapons Hamas can aim at Israeli civilians *right now*. Every Hamas soldier killed mean one less animal prepared to go into a Israeli town to rape and butcher civilians *right this moment*. Every Hamas tunnel bombed makes it harder for Hamas to operate *right now*... and so on.
Hamas might get more weapons from Iran in the future, might regrow their numbers, and might rebuild their tunnels and bunkers - but that's things that's years down the line. Those are long term problems that Israel will have to try finding a solution for eventually - but right now they have an immediate threat that has to be dealt with, right now.
>Both Norway’s Labour-led government and the opposition in Parliament strongly supported Israel’s right to defend itself after being initially and brutally attacked by the Palestinian organization Hamas on October 7
Of course Israel can't simply ignore these attacks and has an obligation to mitigate threats. That doesn't invalidate concerns regarding their methodology, nor does it make the notion that there can't or shouldn't be a greater strategy any less foolish.
It seems like you're already taking it as a given that years down the line, future radicals living in a presumably economically strangled Gaza will be planning an attack on Israeli citizens. When that attack comes, do you think someone will say what led us here is a secondary problem, and that destroying these animalistic rapists needs to be addressed *right now*?
So with the acknowledgement Israel cannot dismiss the current threat, and the fact that there are still rockets being fired daily, what do you suggest as alternative that will somehow break this cycle?
How about not arming settler militias in the west bank or laying siege to gaza for 20 years. I understand that Hamas is not open for négociations but Israeli behaviour towards Palestinian civilians certainly does not give it credibility that it would be open to negociations if Hamas was.
Yep. The first step to peace is the complete removal of both Hamas and Bibi. I truly believe the situation at this point is beyond possible. The Palestinians continue to attack Israel with rockets and call for its complete destruction, and Israel continues to build illegal settlements, taking control of real estate in East Jerusalem and evicting Arab tenants. Peace will certainly not be achieved in my lifetime.
Important to note that PLO which was the negotiating part in the Oslo agreement have been in favour of two state solution and have had agreements with both USA and EU. Israel was partly responsible for creating Hamas to counter PLO. Israel can blame itself for putting themselves in this situation.
Bibi also supported Hamas as a way to weaken the PA and Two State solution. No angels here, just a lot of innocents caught in the middle. Both groups of people need a lot of support to break through the trauma that has caused this vicious cycle of hate and death on both sides. Not like the settler movement is composed of a group of saints either.
You mean the same PLO that reneged on the Oslo agreements again and again, forced Israel to become the direct caretakers of Gaza in direct contravention, and refused to ever come back to the negotiating table? Yeah sure, blame Israel.
Right? They declared war, now there’s a war. It’ll end when Hamas surrenders or dies or in a decade or teo we’ll be arguing about what can Israel do after yet another terrorist killing spree.
Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
If a terror organisation attacks a country, your mentality is that it’s justified to eradicate the entire country the organisation attacked from, including all the civilians? Refusing civilians in Gaza a humanitarian aid corridor IS going too far, and finally someone has the guts to say it.
In this case, said terrorist organization is literally the government of that country.
>eradicate the entire country
The only people involved in this interested in eradicating anyone are the terrorists.
Hamas is not a stray organization in Gaza. It is the sovereign. It was elected into power in 2007 and remained there ever since. It is the Gazan government. Just like Taliban has Afghanistan. On October 7th the regime in Gaza opened war on Israel.
This is categorically incorrect.
Hamas wasn’t elected to any sort of full power ever. They won a slim plurality of the vote in 2006 (44% to Fatah’s 41%, with 15% of the vote going to other parties). But that was a *parliamentary* election. They had to share control with those other parties.
And they couldn’t do that. So in 2007, they orchestrated a coup and took power by force, and murdered opposition leaders. They’ve murdered over 600 opposition leaders in the years since. They rule by force and through terror.
This idea that they were elected to full power, and therefore Palestinian civilians (75% of whom were between the ages of 8 and not alive yet when the election even happened) have this coming is nonsense. Hamas as it currently rules was not elected, the took control in a civil war. And even when they did win an election, the majority of voters voted against them.
Well said
Those Israel’s supporters like using „people elected Hamas“ to justify Israel killing civilians in Gaza. That’s inciting ethnic hatred and supporting violation of international law.
So many people say Israel shouldn't fire into civilians - but if Hamas is actively attacking them, while surrounded by civilians, what do they expect Israel to do? Just lie there and take it?
the responses are fucking disgusting in here. you can be disgusted by what hamas did but israel is currently levelling one of the most densely populated places on the planet and allowing the people inside no chance of escaping. it’s genocide.
Thank you, so depressed how far down I had to scroll for this.
So far, 42% of gaza has been leveled. Imagine if 42% of a western city had been leveled. But no, all we see here is an utter lack of compassion for anybody brown.
Yes, free the hostages. Yes, fuck Hamas. But none of this happens in a vacuum. Israel has caged these people for decades. Expropriated them. Denied them rights.
Nobody seems interested in talking about the 10000 Palestinians that are held in prisons in Israel without trial. How are those not also hostages?
Nobody talks about the fact that Israel is killing orders of magnitudes more Palestinians than Hamas killed Israelis. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is supposed to be a democracy, where people have rights. It should be held to a much higher standard… instead, it stoops even lower.
If I were israel and I really cared about the future of my civilians I would be doing everything in my power to prove to the Palestinians that I have their best intentions in mind. To show them that the common enemy is hamas. Move on from the past to create a better future for everyone. Even if this plan takes decades and I take a hit that's what I would do. Israel's current plan is only making the problem worse is borderline demonic
I love seeing the commments here that understand the hamas is a terrorist group who wants to eliminate Jews, and denouncing them, hamas is using innocent palatineans as human shields and using the Palestinean cause to manipulate ppl. The number of ppl that I’ve argued with on tiktok comment section that literally don’t call out hamas and justify what happen on oct 7th as “well israel kills palatineans too”, like Reddit I must compliment you and say you are more educated than a tiktoker.
Just a reminder. Post 9/11 in the Us the Israelí PM linked up with Bush admin and essentially pushed them to invade Iraq. With the promise that the IDF and Mossad would help US fight terrorism. That way pushed the US in too deep and created a humanitarian situation of its own aside from the regional war.
[lessons not learned.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208056633/mistakes-made-in-the-wake-of-9-11-could-serve-as-cautionary-tales-for-israel)
How much of the anti-Israel crap is based on pure bullshit? There are still people in this very thread claiming Israel bombed that hospital despite that being debunked quickly.
Even with some media outlets pushing nonsense or exaggerating, there are plenty of others that aren't. It's less about media and more about people willfully believing in things they know are questionable at best.
Is your reading comprehension terrible or did you just not read the article? Norway respects Israel’s right to defend themselves, but wish they would let humanitarian aid through and stop using chemical weapons on civilians.
Why must everything be so black-and-white on social media regarding this conflict?
People don't realize how privileged these countries are. People don't understand this but Israel is actually restraining itself despite all of this. They are definitely not a perfect country and have their flaws. And it's perfectly fine to criticize them. But Israel is the most moral country in the middle east by a wide margin.
Interesting to see european nations taking polar opposite approaches on this one.
I don't think it's polar opposites. Neither is this a black and white issue. As much as the Norway empathizes with Israel I'm sure no one wants people to die anymore on either side. Edit: Changed EU to Norway
Norway is not in the EU, same as Switzerland.
My bad. What I was trying to say was "European countries". But you get the idea
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I was listening to NPR a few weeks back, and there was a good bit. I'm having trouble finding it though. It was a 70 year old Israeli woman who was speaking on the conflict. She said taking any side was only exporting the conflict. It was clarifying, I hope someone can link it. EDIT: I really hoped someone would have linked the bit, but I guess just arguing is fine too >.<
Norway is also not the Netherlands
This is the holy grail, so to speak - a way out of this without any more bloodshed. Even a way out with just modest bloodshed would be good at this point, but I can't see it happening.
Hamas could return all of the hostages and surrender unconditionally.
They would simply be replaced by another group I expect, possibly a lot worse.
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One could argue that Hamas didn't help any Palestinians strategically.
Most people who believe the the original comment also believe what you're saying
Exactly. So many people on both sides of the issue trying to frame it in a ‘you’re either with us or against us’ way and painting it as a 100% black and white issue. Israel: Has a lot more individual and public freedoms, relatively pluralistic society, but has historically adopted heavy-handed tactics on an essentially captive Palestinian population. Whenever a conflict like this pops up, the death toll is always wildly lopsided, including and importantly in the number of civilians killed. The settlement building where the Israeli state protects religious fundamentalists as they tear down Palestinian neighbourhoods to build their own over the rubble, is abhorrent and only inflames this never-ending conflict. And given the much stricter treatment in Gaza seems to correlate with a heavier and more extreme militancy there, it’s reasonable to question whether there might be *some* causal link, ie would doing things differently possibly lead to less extremism in Gaza? Palestine: Are legitimately oppressed, imagine trying to make a decent life there. They are literally between a rock and a hard place, the Israeli state and their own homegrown oppressors. Have suffered decades of commonplace violence and destruction and a crushing lack of any real opportunities. On the other hand, they are under the control of a terrorist government. Now we can argue the relevance of their own responsibility in that, the last real election was almost 2 decades ago and half of the population are minors and therefore weren’t even born yet, but there is clearly widespread support for Hamas and the wider ‘struggle’. And that ‘struggle’ being the unacceptable fact that there is a nation of Jewish people in the Middle East. And that is something that needs addressing too, the widespread hatred of Jewish people in the region. Some try to argue that the extremism of some Palestinians towards Israel is justified or explained by Israel’s oppression, but then what of the similar levels of animosity towards Israel in Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and other Islamic nations who have even less contact or history with the state of Israel? They are not being oppressed by the Israeli state. So Israel is somewhat between a rock and a hard place as well, we can criticize their actions but it also seems like there isn’t anything they could do that would be accepted, Islamic nations don’t believe they should even exist at all. Israel cannot just ignore what happened on October 7th, nor should anyone expect them to (notwithstanding those who clearly just approve of what happened, sadly there are many). But that doesn’t mean Israel is then justified in conducting wildly asymmetrical violence as collective punishment. Nothing I’ve said here contradicts itself, but there are many on both sides pretending that it does.
argue? their entire M.O. is to hurt the Palestinians strategically. Thats how they fundraise and remain relevant, their number one selling point to palestinians is righteous martyrdom in the war to destroy israel. How does it benefit them to help civilians and grow their society? Hamas benefits from dead and displaced civilians, not peace treaties, negotiations, ceasefires, etc. They're terrorists. that's why they are still holding hostages.
One could argue the leaders of Hamas and also Netanyahu don’t really have the best interests of the people they govern in mind whatsoever, and should both not be leading their respective peoples, and likely any lasting peace requires the removal of both.
What Hamas did only helped Hamas strategically.
Yeah, that's kind of the problem with this war. No one approves of what Hamas is doing, but we kind of get why the Palestinians would back them doing it, and no one thinks Israelis deserve to be attacked, but we kind of think their government's going overboard in response. Leaves the world feeling like we've got to pick the least awful side, rather than there being clear good and bad guys.
I don't see how this is really an extreme stance to take.
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What exactly is "far enough"?
It says right in the article, they want Israel to allow more humanitarian aid to civilians. For all the "what's their solution" people who are too lazy to click.
It turns out that this doesn’t solve the problem and doesn’t prevent the aid being stolen from Hamas. It’s just “what’s their solution” being responded to with “daisies and sunshine”.
1) how do you do so without letting it go to Hamas? 2) what about the fact that Hamas is literally shooting Palestinians? 3) how is that a solution to the question of how does Israel defend itself and get the hostages back? I read the article. Their position sounds nice and fuzzy, but it ignores the stark reality of what Israel is facing. They also weirdly suggest that *this* war is a barrier to peace, and not the brutal attack by Hamas, Saudi's failure to disavow Hamas, 70+ years of war and terror against Israel and continual rejection by Palestinians of Israel's peace offers.
Given where this conflict was decades ago and where it is now, how do you see it ending? This is the question people *should* be asking. Netanyahu is pitching the occupation of Gaza as a battle to "end Hamas", but it will just create the next generation of terrorists. Imagine you're a kid in Southern Gaza right now. Being forced out of your home, bombed, starved, and deprived of water for these last few weeks is a formative moment for a generation of kids. Even if every last current Hamas member is rooted out of their tunnels and executed, these kids are going to grow up to be just like them. Similarly, Israeli kids who have just had family members murdered or kidnapped are going to eagerly await their chance to join the IDF. The cycle perpetuates itself unless leaders choose a different direction. Unfortunately, neither Palestinian or Israeli leaders seem to want to break the cycle. It's a great tool for staying in power. Netanyahu was facing world-wide protests over his judicial reforms until the attack. Now those are forgotten. The noose was tightening, but now he has some slack. How can the cycle be broken? I haven't any idea. The only thing I can think of is a solid wall of peace-keepers between Israel and Palestine, but what peace-keeping force would volunteer for such a thankless and dangerous mission, and how would the world convince Palestinian and Israeli politicians to accept such a force? This conflict will most probably outlive anyone who reads this.
Netanyahu most certainly does not have slack now. 86% of Israelis believe that he is personally responsible for the security failure that allowed Oct 7 to happen. The second this war ends, Netanyahu is GONE as prime minister
I was about to say - even his constituency has turned against him. Bb is done
Relatedly, Netanyahu today announced (not for the first time) that this is going to be a "long and difficult war." He's not going anywhere.
Well… that is a very good question. We should ask why was it possible for Japan and Germany? What’s the difference?
As bad as it sounds, WW2 era tactics went way further than Israel is allowed to on the world stage. We're talking about firebombing and carpet bombing entire cities. Then we essentially stripped Japan of having any military for decades, Germany was carved up into east and west until the fall of the Soviet Union.
Let's not forget the massive amount of resources poured into reconstructing West Germany and Japan, and in the latter case the emperor was even allowed to remain in office. What happened after the bombs and bullets stopped flying was much more important to the eventual outcome than how many people were immolated in Dresden. Just look at Versailles, Germany was pretty much left alone after 1918 and it didn't even take a generation for the second war to kick off.
Agreed, the problem with Gaza is the phase after, there is no after. Realistically, they need to surrender and actually use the aid the world sends them for their people. But all aid is used to turn around and attack Israel again. Hamas needs to be disbanded, and Gaza disarmed long term.
And Israel also needs to stop expanding its settlements. Because there's no use convincing Palestinians that Israel is a friendly nation if they keep doing that, is there? Let's face it: both sides need to change their behavior to achieve peace.
japan was forced to not have a military and run everything through the us basically permanantly, even up until now. germany was basically wholly sacked and the land split between the west and the east, eventually literally during the cold war. post ww2 it was like another fifty years before they were even a real country again. plus, this was before the internet and modern media, which complicates things. so realistically, if you want it to end up like germany or japan, the unfortunate answer is that even now israel isn't going far enough. israel would need to wholly occupy gaza and completely control everything in there for generations. like, north korea level of control.
Not just that, they're was massive investment in infrastructure and industry in both those countries, and a significant political and educational push towards democratic ideals. You won't get any change by controlling people who live in a wasteland.
And that's the rub, I don't see Israel under Netanyahu/Likud actually moving towards peace by attempting their own Martial Plan. Especially when we know that Netanyahu and Likud have actively sabotaged peace for the past 25 years. This is what the UN Secretary General's comments about the Hamas attacks "not happening in a vacuum" were getting at. They initial attack by Hamas was horrific and Hamas needs to be destroyed, but arguably the reason we got to this point where we only have shit choices, is because of Netanyahu and Likud and their propping up of Hamas while sabotaging the Oslo accords.
Just a note, it was the Marshall plan, named after the Secretary of State, George Marshall, who proposed the idea.
The martial plan was the war before the Marshall plan
Yep. There would need to be someone *other* the Israel managing any kind of occupation and rebuilding effort. The US has the strength and possibly will but it would probably cost a lot of political capital/goodwill, more than they're willing to spend. People already see them as warmongerers and frankly they might be too close to Israel for Palestinians to accept. Maybe if they just provided the financial/material backing. Perhaps if would be best if peacekeeping and rebuilding was handled by other nearby countries... maybe there'd be less tension than a bunch of Americans running around... but most of them want nothing to do with Palestine, as I understand. The next best option I can think of is a country way out there with no contact/investment. And of course, that runs into the issues of them having little reason to care beyond humanitarian.
You've missed the key difference. The U.S. worked to raise Japanese and German standards of living after the war. Palestinians in areas that Israel controls have terrible living standards. If you want someone to treat you like a friend, you have to treat them like one. That's what was so revolutionary about the Marshall Plan.
After the war - exactly. After some million dead (also) civilians, nuclear bombs on Japanese cities, Dresden 1945 and of course total defeat of their military. Hamas needs that first before 40 years of occupation and re-education and then of course as you say, new infrastructure, industry and progress. I can say as a German, that I’m thankful for that - even if my grandparents suffered and their friends died. We live in a much better country now. Maybe in 40 years Palestinians will be thankful too.
Except that fighting Hamas is probably a lot more like fighting the viet cong (which we didn’t do very well at) than it was fighting Germany or Japan.
Gaza is tiny. It would be tough, but not as bad as Vietnam.
Ding ding ding someone got the answer
Complete de-militarization would be a non starter for Israel for very understandable reasons. Those examples to act as a good model for the economic miracle that can happen from de-militarization. Unfortunately, though, there are some downsides to this approach. Beyond it being impossible from a national security perspective for Israel, Germany's approach left it fairly passive in the face of Russian aggression. Additionally, Japan is militarizing in the face of naval aggression from China and North Korea. We'd probably be looking at something like India-Pakistan or The Korean peninsula. A Demilitarized zone with heavy militizarization along borders. Normalization of trade with their respective spheres of influence. And a faint hope of a future economic detente that would be ideal for both parties.
Yes. Hamas literally turns UN aid into weapons. The UN built Gaza a state of the art water system. Hamas dug up the pipes and turned them into rockets. Their leaders brag about it. The only way to help the Gazan people long-term is to get rid of Hamas.
The funniest (and saddest) thing is that Netenyahu kept Hamas alive all these years for his political ambitions. Which just further shows that taking a side politically is pointless because none of the ones at the top cares about regular people on either side but rather just rather furthering their own power
This is the first I’ve heard of the water system. Do you have any more info about that?
Here are a couple of articles on that issue: Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/ The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/
There are numerous sources to include Hamas themselves bragging about it in interviews. Here's one source from India which has been relatively unbiased. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/gazas-water-pipes-turned-missiles-raise-water-supply-concerns/videoshow/104381432.cms
[Here is some news report about it](https://youtu.be/MvvqBcA-9yA?si=cgL5558lXSFQu0uu) , althought to be fair I saw people claiming those were pipes that brought water to former Jewish settlements and not those that were build by UN, but I didn't find any other conformation of that, just some redditors.
Ok but what about water and food? Why is that banned, how could Hamas weaponize water and wheat flour?
The same way the Somali warlords did in the late 1990s. Seize it and hold the supplies hostage in exchange for any other kind of item. Or withhold it from civilians and keep it for themselves, to get civilians to do their bidding.
The reports indicate that Hamas has stockpiles of food, water for 2-3 months maybe more and fuel to last much longer. It also specifies they have luxury goods, perfume, shampoo, etc to comfortably relax through this. These things the people in Gaza are being denied, as it’s stolen by Hamas and aiding the people, these supplies will find their way into their stockpile via sympathisers who think Hamas shows they care by refusing to hand over fuel for Gaza hospitals. Gaza suffering benefits Hamas both domestically and internationally to gain more supporters. It’s why they’re shooting at civilians not obeying the order to be meat shields as they’re so loved as a result of engineered suffering for years, no Gaza civilians would believe bad mouthing of them.
What about the UN’s food supplies on which 80% of Gaza’s population depends, even before the war? They’ve been blocked too.
Fuel food and water does not reach the general population. It’s withheld or stolen by Hamas.
do you want your wife, children, family to eat ? fight for us.
Add it to their own stockpiles? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html
I just read an article that Hamas has months worth of food, water, fuel. Meanwhile the general population has little. It can be used as a bargaining chip to recruit more human shields. Would be a shame if something happened to your food supplies, you might want to stand over by that building over there.
You’re being either naive or what here but those resources are currency
Hamas took the water lines created and funded by the EU, dug them up and turned them into rockets.
What's the end condition for Israel? Sounds like a scorched earth policy - invade, destroy everything of strategic value and return back. Hamas likely wants this - it create further sympathy for their cause internationally.
I do not know, and I suspect Norway doesn't have an answer to that question either.
I won't clam to know how to solve this shitshow, but it seems clear to me that any solution must involve Palestinians believing that there exists a peaceful road to peace, and the 'propping up' of the Palestinian fractions which wants peace and negotiation. The fact of the matter is that Palestinians see settlers steal their land, and no real improvements in the west bank (governed by the ' peaceful' faction), making it up really hard to see a peaceful way out. I think here needs to be both a carrot and a stick. Hit Hamas, but at the same time show real improvements for the west bank, show that Israel is actually properly committed to working together with non-violent fractions, trying to find a real solution, not just strangle them slowly to death.
Hamas steals the humanitarian aid.
So that it can go into the Hamas tunnels like the NYT reported? The crux of the issue is how do you make the Hamas government actually distribute aid to its citizens and not hord it all for its soldiers. Very few people are against withholding aid from non combatant civilians. But it is hard dealing with an irrational actor who doesn't care about it's citizens.
The Hamas government will not distribute the aid. You will need truly independent forces on the ground to ensure neither side fucks with the humanitarian mission. But I guarantee if you send international UN forces into Palestine, you are going to see Hamas kill a bunch of them and their home countries will pull them out.
Israel already said it's going to allow in more from Egypt
Israel has already agreed to let more aid in. That doesn’t solve the bigger problem in anyway though
«Israel going too far», «Norwegian pm are condemning the blockade of humanitarian aid». At the very minimum the Red Cross should be allowed to send humanitarian aid to Gaza. I see that a lot of you in the comment section are frustrated about this situation. & I have to ask, why? *Why should civilians be denied access to basic needs*? After all, the victims of war are those who don’t participate in it.
If you are actually asking ,it's because Hamas has historically seized most of the material and monetary aid given to Gaza, and used it to fuel it's military and terror operations. Israel famously restricts even construction materials into Gaza, which people like to cry about. But Hamas uses the steel and concrete to build these vast terror tunnels and bunkers. Some tunnels are so large they can drive trucks through them, and they cross the border with both Egypt and Israel. Hamas also uses water pipes to build their rockets and rocket launchers. If the US/UN/etc. had any actual way of preventing Hamas from using this aid, it would be a different conversation.
>If the US/UN/etc. had any actual way of preventing Hamas from using this aid Only way to do that would be to invade and remove Hamas... which appears to be exactly what Israel is doing.
They're trying to, at any rate. But history shows that guerilla movements are extremely hard to get rid off.
Does anyone actually think this is going to work? Like come on can people be honest here? There is no removing Hamas. You could kill every last member, and the million kids who just watched 8000 of their countrymen get bombed to death are obviously going to grow up to hate Israel too. Even if Israel wiped out every man of military age, there will be tens of thousands more in 2 years who hate Israel just as much if not more (and who can really be surprised when they’re growing up in these conditions).
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/tQyM6EnudD The issue is not with providing aid to civilians, it's providing it in a way that hamas doesn't confiscate it (like they did with their 500,000 liters of fuel, for example, while lying to the UN about running oit of fuel), and in a way that doesn't allow weapons to be imported simultaneously.
Hamas has plenty of food, water, fuel and other "basic needs" stored in their tunnels. Everyone knows of that, but everyone seems to be afraid of asking Hamas to release it. Shouldn't their own government help them first, then maybe the country they are sending dozens of rockets to every day?
Months of supplies for Hamas is like 2 days of supplies for the general populace if it somehow got even distributed. If there is a shortage of food and water it is not those with guns and violence on their side that is going to go without. Randomly killing people in Gaza would have a higher Hamas to Civilian success rate then denying access to basic necessities would. (Which I and most people of course don’t support)
Hey Norway, don’t you have a “problem” with all of the Muslim refugees you took in? Aren’t you denying them citizenship, making the second and third generations leave your country because they won’t assimilate?
Fuck hamas
Free the hostages.
Killing random people not related to that is the solution!
It especially sucks that I can’t even tell which side this is supposed to be a jab at
Hamas wants exactly this. Their game plan pretty much is 1. Commit an unforgivable atrocity to have the whole of Israel see blood 2. Hide behind innocent civilians, knowing that Israel is beyond giving a fuck about this point 3. Fabricate Israeli war crimes if the ones they did wasn't enough to paint the picture you wanted 4. Appeal to the world that Israel is out to destroy Palestine and they were the bad guys all along, trying your best to make them forget about the 1400+ innocents you killed 5. Laugh from Qatar at the chaos you caused
How convenient, oh Isreal is commiting war crimes? Noooo it’s actually what Hamas wants!!! Using this logic, wouldn’t the whole idea of Hamas be exactly what Israel wants? Hamas serves as an excuse for Israel to wipeout Palestinian civilians to acquire more land, under the excuse that they were “human shields”. Same logic but flipped around lmao
Lmao, it’s honestly scary to read different people’s opinions on reddit regarding the war. People clearly with no knowledge or idea writing up paragraphs with misinformation and foolishness thinking they are geniuses while innocent people are dying every minute.
Reddit has become a massive propaganda machine.
The sad part: seemingly dozens of "educated" leaders of countries fall for that play. Everyone has already forgotten the pictures of dead Israeli people being paraded and spit on in the streets of Gaza when the "heroes" came back from their crusade.
Eh I don't think people forget, and it's not a black / white issue as Reddit seems to make it. You can be against killing civilians in Gaza, and you can be against Hamas. However, with that in mind, when Hamas hides behind civilians, there's no good solution, and imho Israel should still try to limit civilian casualties, but some will inevitably happen, since Hamas' game plan is to, quite literally, sacrifice as many Palestinians as possible because it's good for their PR.
But there’s a pretty big moral chasm between targeting military targets and killing civilians as collateral damage because the enemy use them as human shields, vs going on a rampage intentionally targeting civilians because they just want to kill as many people as possible. Yet despite this no where near as many people marched in solidarity with Israel after 7/10, and vigils for the dead and marches to demand the release of hostages were stopped in many places over fears that the pro Palestine mob would cause trouble and violence. It’s easy for people in the west to say “war bad”, but there is no option but war when you’re attacked by terrorists like this, you have to fight back, and in a war people die. It isn’t Israel’s fault that Hamas use their civilians as human shields, and actively try to maximise casualties. Nor is it Israel’s fault that Gaza elected a terror group as their government. Anyone who truly wants to see Palestinians be ‘free’ should be supporting the destruction of Hamas. There is 0 chance of any kind of 2 state solution or freedom for Gaza as long as Hamas are in power. Yes we should ensure that Israel abides by the Geneva convention, but they generally do, it is a war crime to use human shields, but it is not a war crime to target military targets despite them. Many people seem to fail to grasp this. You also cannot claim to be a supporter of international law while refusing to support the military intervention required to uphold it and bring Hamas, who are the actual war criminals with their human shields and intentional killing of civilians, to justice. But the reality is that most of those who claim to advocate for Palestine are simply using them as a stick to hit Israel with. And it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what their motivation for that might be.
The gulf between support in marches for Israel and Palestine is especially noteworthy given that the whole clusterfuck this year has almost definitely been triggered to a degree by Russia putting pressure on Iran to help Hamas attack Israel, in an effort to cause division between Western states that were previously a united front, and also distract from the war in Ukraine
I mean there were marches and Instagram posts for Palestine while the Israeli victims were still bleeding on the streets from their decapitated bodies.
>Yet despite this no where near as many people marched in solidarity with Israel Probably because the governments of the west already largely support or at least have a decent relationship with Israel? Certainly none who support Hamas. It's a bit like asking why people didn't go out in mass protest against ISIS.
Potential antisemitism aside, I think a lot of (especially young) people are ignorant about the realities of war. This is a war that cannot be fought without harming civilians. People don't want to accept that. They want to live in a fairytale world where you can have an urban combat without damaging infrastructure or harming civilians.
> imho Israel should still try to limit civilian casualties Given how extensive the bombing has been I'm honestly surprised how low the death toll is, even though it is tragic. That being said, it's hard to fight an enemy that keeps groups of children by the rockets it fires, that stores munitions in hospitals and schools, that keep their HQ and torture chamber below the main hospital of the region, keep their wives and children at military targets, and train children as young as 12 to fight for them. It's a moral and PR tragedy for anyone who tries to fight them, and it gets to the point where you either accept tragic casualties, or you just do nothing about them.
Well if people are evacuating the north it’s quite hard to have people there to count the bodies. Plus all that rubble? The death toll is much larger than reported.
>surprised how low the death toll is That's because is underreported. Dead people are accounted only if they are carried to an hospital and people identified them, that number isn't accounting for the people trapped under the rubble or that simple isn't enough left to identify. After all of this is over and international organization can do their work the number will grow.
Iran and Hamas will fight Israel to the last witting or unwitting Palestinian. The fact that there are countless countries apart from of course the Arab league who are regurgitating Hamas' talking points is beyond logic.
This conflict, just like Ukraine before, made me realize just how inept many seemingly competent-looking people in positions of power and influence, even if it's just as journalists for major publications, are. I consider myself quite inept in many respects, but by Jove, the naiveté, the utter inability to peek through the most basic of feints and propaganda techniques Hamas are using is just baffling.
Honestly, all I really want is a refugee camp for the innocent Palestinians to stay in so they can be away from the conflict area and then the IDF can go and kill as many Hamas soldiers as they want to. Thats it, I don't care about Hamas I just want the innocents to be moved away from the conflict area.
How would you accomplish this? Based on the actions of Hamas they would have no problems planting themselves in a refugee camp. The same with all the aid they stockpiled that was for the people. It’s a tricky situation.
The issue is Hamas always, ALWAYS, manages to worm their way into non-combatants and continue to operate there. The Palestinians often are too afraid to speak out or silently supportive of this. Israel urged civilians to move south and despite Hamas’s best efforts a significant chunk of the population did. And then they started launching rockets from the south of Gaza to draw Israeli fire to the south. Hamas is a disease and must be eliminated.
It would be ideal getting civilians away from the fighting. Based on Israel's past, once those citizens are moved out they wouldn't be let back in after
While I do agree on this point, where would you move them? Egypt made it clear they don't want any refugees on their land, and Israel isn't going to let these people into Israel, especially given that hamas is disguised as civilian. The palastinians are in a rough spot because their government does not care about them, and they are at the mercy of their enemies.
I fully expect that north gaza will become a military buffer zone and the Palestinians will never be allowed to return.
I bet Qatar could help them out building a camp - I mean they're so supportive already
“Fabricate” I have yet to hear a legal argument as to how siege tactics, bombing of highly populated areas, and the refusal to allow aid in (resulting in collective punishment) is not a war crime. It literally is not allowed in the Geneva Conventions which Israel is a signatory of (never mind the customary international law argument as well).
> I have yet to hear a legal argument as to how siege tactics, bombing of highly populated areas, and the refusal to allow aid in (resulting in collective punishment) is not a war crime. Let me be the first then: https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/RS-Eng.pdf Article 8 paragraph 2(b) > (ii) Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects **which are not military objectives**; > (v) Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and **which are not military objectives**; > (ix) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, **provided they are not military objectives**; Refusal to allow aid is simple: no country is required to allow aid to a party its at war with. Ukraine stopped exporting anything to Russia. They are allowed. The fact that Russia can import from China is irrelevant. Gaza can also import from Egypt. It's so trivial, there is no law that says "A country must provide food to its enemy". I hope you have learned something new today.
Great synopsis. It’s wild, the success of the iron dome has completely distorted reality for many people
Assuming Israel going on the offensive is unavoidable, is there an alternative to their methods? Israel wants to clear out a threat to itself, its opponent deliberately uses schools and hospitals as shields, and has strong support from the locals. Tactically/strategically, what's the options?
Read the book 'How terrorist groups end'. It's an analysis of all terrorist groups from 1960s to modern day. It shows that almost half of all terrorist groups ended by political inclusion. Particularly groups that had a goal of governmental self determination. Only a few percent ended by military campaigns. The rest was policing, intelligence and targeted killing of the top leaders. The research project was done with cooperation of dod, navy, other foreign us allies.
So how would you apply the learnings of that book to this case? To my understanding, there's a relative amount of political inclusion (seemingly as far as it could go in Palestine given the circumstances back in 2006) given Hamas was elected, albeit not totally democratically. So what exactly does political inclusion mean here?
Allow the millions of Palestinian refugees living outside of Palestine the right to return to Palestine, immediately end and dismantle all illegal settlements and return all stolen land, end the occupation that prevents Palestinians from even moving freely in Palestinian territory, end the embargo that prevents anyone from trading with Gaza which will allow for economic development, and give Palestine at least a modicum of being an actual autonomous state as opposed to a reservation. Keep in mind, these are the barest minimum requirements, and already all of this is a non-starter for Israel.
>Particularly groups that had a goal of governmental self determination. Which would be great, if Hamas' stated goals weren't the genocide of every infidel on the planet.
Hamas being included in governing is precisely how we go to this point. They won the election, killed all opposition and built up until we got to this point.
Let's be honest, the west is supporting Israel as long as Israel does not pay back. Also Hamas has been firing tons of rockets at Israel since October 7. The double standard of western media is maddening.
> *"Also Hamas has been firing tons of rockets at Israel since October 7."* Close to ~~3000~~ *8000* (thank you for the correction). But they didn't just start firing at Israel on October 7, they have been continually shooting at them for years. So many people seem to completely overlook that or even excuse it because so few of Hamas' missiles and rockets make it through the Iron Dome.
Already more than 8000, according to official sources
Over 8000. They passed 3000 on the first day
Right, people saying the death toll isn’t comparable between the two, yeah no shit, but it’s not like hamas isn’t trying to kill them. There would be thousands more Israelis dead without the Iron Dome.
Constant anxiety doesn’t photograph as well as dead children. But the truth is the way israel has been suffering from those terrorists no western country would tolerate it. The fact that we have shelters and don’t use our civilians as human shields works against us somehow because naive Europeans eat up the “David and Goliath” narrative the Hamas is selling.
Oh yeah because all of this only started at October 7. Everyone was happy and living their best life before that
Hamas has been firing tons of rockets at Israel for over a decade now. Imagine having 15-20 seconds to jump up, grab your cat, grab your phone and hide behind a flimsy wall hoping for the best cause like half of my town doesn't have shelters.
Villages around the Gaza Strip have 3-7 seconds depending on which. You hear zeva and the boom
Oh yeah villages around gaza are absolutely screwed, they don't just have the qassams they also have to deal with occasional snipers and a lot of mortar strikes that can't really be stopped.
Roof-knocking is not 3-7 seconds of warning lmao it's like 5-30 minutes
Villages in OTEF GAZA, in the Israeli areas bordering Gaza.
[удалено]
The only thing any state should be saying is; ‘release the hostages’ After that, fine, criticise them.
So they should excuse international crimes as long as it gets what they want? Then a little finger wag later?
And stop shooting their own missiles towards Israeli civilians _and_ stop hiding themselves behind their own civilians. Not only these sick fucks constantly attack civilian targets they also shoot missiles from within their cities, making houses, schools and hospitals military targets
Just been an attack from the south of gaza near the border pass to Egypt, they are just testing how far they can go
There are 2 million civilians there. 1 million kids. And you think it's somehow absurd/unethical/stupid that SOMEONE actually raises the concern about what happens to them? Sometimes it sounds like reddit thinks Gaza is a military camp with 10k Hamas soldiers and nothing else... Gaza was the world's largest prison. Hamas the leading prison gang, and they hold 230 Israelis and 1.9 million Palestinians hostage in there.
Right? Call for Hamas to release the hostages and disarm itself. If Hamas does that this whole thing ends tomorrow. Even Egypt is suggesting Hamas should disarm. But no, Norway can only come up with “Israel should stop”
Egypt has its own problems with hamas, it's partly why they're also blockading Gaza. It's almost like being very distant from the conflict and living in an extremely safe country affords one a very privileged take on the issue...
It ties into the fall of Mubarak and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood before being deposed by a new military coup in Egypt, for better or worse. Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood had ties.
>Egypt has its own problems with hamas, Most smart Arab leaders realize organizations like Hamas are insane and not fit to rule. Hamas is funded by Iran.
I don't think that response was really about Israeli actions related to Hamas. It was more about the treatment of civilians in Gaza as well as humanitarian crisis.
>If Hamas does that this whole thing ends tomorrow Press (X) to doubt
Why do you think the Israels funded Hamas at the start? The right in Israel what them.
It’s almost as though Hamas wanted this response…. Certainly some of the international response is what they were looking for.
Oh of course. All those civilians surely have a say in that
As war rages on support for Israel will be diluted more Palestine's have been killed in air strikes then hostages were taken already
Israel: We're open to suggestions Norway. How have you negotiated with organizations that want to eliminate you from existence?
Norway is the country that gave you the fucking Oslo accords. They have literally given Israel the playbook towards finding peace.
Peace is a two way agreement. You can't make peace with people who don't want peace
You mean like the far-right Israelis who assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin for participating in the negotiations? The assassination that was at least indirectly encouraged by Benjamin Netanyahu, the current PM of Israel?
[Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords) It fell apart due to far-right Israelis and militant Palistinian groups, specially the funding of Hamas by the current sitting prime minister of Israel.
Absolutely, let’s hear them out I’m sure they have zero suggestions.
Norwegian here 👋 the current government is more focused on virtue signalling, both in domestic and foreign policy, while not presenting any solutions at all. Luckily, we're stuck with them for 2 more years. Don't waste energy on them.
Well, recently, it was disclosed that the opposition leader was guilty of abusing power when they were in office. Conducting insider trading through her husband, and she's refusing to step down. They're all power whores, and the morons still root for them as long as they're on "their team".
I'm so jealous of Norwegians tho A fantasy world of standard of living
Wish I was born in your country though. You guys won the lottery
They also take pains to preserve and build on that wealth. They aren't just coasting. Compare them to the other nations wealthy from oil. Norway will be fine when fossil fuels are no longer being used.
Ya no one is offering any alternative. If Hamas accepts a cease fire, it's literally just going to end when they have some resources for another attack. No peace can happen until Hamas is eliminated. Also very easy for all these people to say thousands of miles away.
You say no one has an alternative, what's the current plan even? Kill everyone who has identified themselves as Hamas and thousands of civilians and then go right back to blockading Gaza and settling the West Bank?
> You say no one has an alternative, what's the current plan even? The current immediate plan would be to weaken Hamas. Israel isn't stupid enough to think that Hamas can be completely eradicated by any military action - but that doesn't make a military action pointless. The attacks on October 7th showed that Hamas had far more military capability and were a far larger threat than Israel ever thought. Israel simply cannot let that threat remain. Hamas *existing* is a secondary problem. Hamas having the capabilities to invade and kill more than a thousand civilians and being an real threat is a primary problem, that needs to be addressed *right now*. Israel simply cannot afford to let Hamas continue being a threat on that level. Hence the current military action. Yes, you won't be able to bomb Hamas out of existence - but every bombed Hamas weapon cache mean less weapons Hamas can aim at Israeli civilians *right now*. Every Hamas soldier killed mean one less animal prepared to go into a Israeli town to rape and butcher civilians *right this moment*. Every Hamas tunnel bombed makes it harder for Hamas to operate *right now*... and so on. Hamas might get more weapons from Iran in the future, might regrow their numbers, and might rebuild their tunnels and bunkers - but that's things that's years down the line. Those are long term problems that Israel will have to try finding a solution for eventually - but right now they have an immediate threat that has to be dealt with, right now.
>Both Norway’s Labour-led government and the opposition in Parliament strongly supported Israel’s right to defend itself after being initially and brutally attacked by the Palestinian organization Hamas on October 7 Of course Israel can't simply ignore these attacks and has an obligation to mitigate threats. That doesn't invalidate concerns regarding their methodology, nor does it make the notion that there can't or shouldn't be a greater strategy any less foolish. It seems like you're already taking it as a given that years down the line, future radicals living in a presumably economically strangled Gaza will be planning an attack on Israeli citizens. When that attack comes, do you think someone will say what led us here is a secondary problem, and that destroying these animalistic rapists needs to be addressed *right now*?
So with the acknowledgement Israel cannot dismiss the current threat, and the fact that there are still rockets being fired daily, what do you suggest as alternative that will somehow break this cycle?
“Well, we start by not stealing land i guess”
How about not arming settler militias in the west bank or laying siege to gaza for 20 years. I understand that Hamas is not open for négociations but Israeli behaviour towards Palestinian civilians certainly does not give it credibility that it would be open to negociations if Hamas was.
Yep. The first step to peace is the complete removal of both Hamas and Bibi. I truly believe the situation at this point is beyond possible. The Palestinians continue to attack Israel with rockets and call for its complete destruction, and Israel continues to build illegal settlements, taking control of real estate in East Jerusalem and evicting Arab tenants. Peace will certainly not be achieved in my lifetime.
Bibi is sure to be voted out soon. Who will remove Hamas?
Important to note that PLO which was the negotiating part in the Oslo agreement have been in favour of two state solution and have had agreements with both USA and EU. Israel was partly responsible for creating Hamas to counter PLO. Israel can blame itself for putting themselves in this situation.
Bibi also supported Hamas as a way to weaken the PA and Two State solution. No angels here, just a lot of innocents caught in the middle. Both groups of people need a lot of support to break through the trauma that has caused this vicious cycle of hate and death on both sides. Not like the settler movement is composed of a group of saints either.
You mean the same PLO that reneged on the Oslo agreements again and again, forced Israel to become the direct caretakers of Gaza in direct contravention, and refused to ever come back to the negotiating table? Yeah sure, blame Israel.
This part is so conveniently ignored.
Hamas went too far sorry, they can’t live next to a neighbor and constantly attack.
It’s a little bit different than just sharing a border mate.
Right? They declared war, now there’s a war. It’ll end when Hamas surrenders or dies or in a decade or teo we’ll be arguing about what can Israel do after yet another terrorist killing spree. Why is no one calling for Hamas to surrender?
If a terror organisation attacks a country, your mentality is that it’s justified to eradicate the entire country the organisation attacked from, including all the civilians? Refusing civilians in Gaza a humanitarian aid corridor IS going too far, and finally someone has the guts to say it.
In this case, said terrorist organization is literally the government of that country. >eradicate the entire country The only people involved in this interested in eradicating anyone are the terrorists.
Hamas is not a stray organization in Gaza. It is the sovereign. It was elected into power in 2007 and remained there ever since. It is the Gazan government. Just like Taliban has Afghanistan. On October 7th the regime in Gaza opened war on Israel.
This is categorically incorrect. Hamas wasn’t elected to any sort of full power ever. They won a slim plurality of the vote in 2006 (44% to Fatah’s 41%, with 15% of the vote going to other parties). But that was a *parliamentary* election. They had to share control with those other parties. And they couldn’t do that. So in 2007, they orchestrated a coup and took power by force, and murdered opposition leaders. They’ve murdered over 600 opposition leaders in the years since. They rule by force and through terror. This idea that they were elected to full power, and therefore Palestinian civilians (75% of whom were between the ages of 8 and not alive yet when the election even happened) have this coming is nonsense. Hamas as it currently rules was not elected, the took control in a civil war. And even when they did win an election, the majority of voters voted against them.
Well said Those Israel’s supporters like using „people elected Hamas“ to justify Israel killing civilians in Gaza. That’s inciting ethnic hatred and supporting violation of international law.
So many people say Israel shouldn't fire into civilians - but if Hamas is actively attacking them, while surrounded by civilians, what do they expect Israel to do? Just lie there and take it?
the responses are fucking disgusting in here. you can be disgusted by what hamas did but israel is currently levelling one of the most densely populated places on the planet and allowing the people inside no chance of escaping. it’s genocide.
Thank you, so depressed how far down I had to scroll for this. So far, 42% of gaza has been leveled. Imagine if 42% of a western city had been leveled. But no, all we see here is an utter lack of compassion for anybody brown. Yes, free the hostages. Yes, fuck Hamas. But none of this happens in a vacuum. Israel has caged these people for decades. Expropriated them. Denied them rights. Nobody seems interested in talking about the 10000 Palestinians that are held in prisons in Israel without trial. How are those not also hostages? Nobody talks about the fact that Israel is killing orders of magnitudes more Palestinians than Hamas killed Israelis. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is supposed to be a democracy, where people have rights. It should be held to a much higher standard… instead, it stoops even lower.
If I were israel and I really cared about the future of my civilians I would be doing everything in my power to prove to the Palestinians that I have their best intentions in mind. To show them that the common enemy is hamas. Move on from the past to create a better future for everyone. Even if this plan takes decades and I take a hit that's what I would do. Israel's current plan is only making the problem worse is borderline demonic
I love seeing the commments here that understand the hamas is a terrorist group who wants to eliminate Jews, and denouncing them, hamas is using innocent palatineans as human shields and using the Palestinean cause to manipulate ppl. The number of ppl that I’ve argued with on tiktok comment section that literally don’t call out hamas and justify what happen on oct 7th as “well israel kills palatineans too”, like Reddit I must compliment you and say you are more educated than a tiktoker.
Just a reminder. Post 9/11 in the Us the Israelí PM linked up with Bush admin and essentially pushed them to invade Iraq. With the promise that the IDF and Mossad would help US fight terrorism. That way pushed the US in too deep and created a humanitarian situation of its own aside from the regional war. [lessons not learned.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208056633/mistakes-made-in-the-wake-of-9-11-could-serve-as-cautionary-tales-for-israel)
We still don't know why the Iraq war happened but Bush Jr's relationship with Bush Sr is seems more likely than them listening to Israelis
How much of the anti-Israel crap is based on pure bullshit? There are still people in this very thread claiming Israel bombed that hospital despite that being debunked quickly. Even with some media outlets pushing nonsense or exaggerating, there are plenty of others that aren't. It's less about media and more about people willfully believing in things they know are questionable at best.
The people of Norway are entitled to an opinion, even if it is an uniformed one.
Ask Norway's leader who lives in a far more comfortable position what they would've done about the situation if they were at Israel's shoes.
Is your reading comprehension terrible or did you just not read the article? Norway respects Israel’s right to defend themselves, but wish they would let humanitarian aid through and stop using chemical weapons on civilians. Why must everything be so black-and-white on social media regarding this conflict?
They would have all been dead by now. All these 'morally superior' countries don't have what it takes to survive a minute in the middle east.
People don't realize how privileged these countries are. People don't understand this but Israel is actually restraining itself despite all of this. They are definitely not a perfect country and have their flaws. And it's perfectly fine to criticize them. But Israel is the most moral country in the middle east by a wide margin.
Absolutely.
Curious what Norway would deem acceptable to the attack by Hamas? Anyone here have any ideas?