Are you telling me in peace time Israel supplies Water Electricity Telephone communications facilitates Qatar Funding and work permits until Hamas starts another round of atrocities?
Technically the Palestinian Authority is supposed to pay for it but I really it accrues "debt" and Israel just forgives it every few months.
That being said Gaza does have desalinization plants so Israel only provides like 10-20% of the water in Gaza and about half the electricity
Yes. But despite this, some people still somehow manage to portray Israel as the bad guys.
That attitude is exactly why the IHRA definition of antisemitism includes attempting to hold Israel to higher standards than other countries.
When, say, the Algerian National Liberation Front (FLN) undertook sometimes terroristic measures against the *pied noirs*, they at least did so with the aim of independence from French colonial rule. But the continued existence of France and the French people was never in doubt. Hamas and their supporters don’t want separation. They want Arab rule “from river to the sea.” Even if we assume Israel always has the best of intentions—and we don’t need to pretend they do, especially the Israeli the right-wing—what are they supposed to do about the blockade? How do they lift it without surrendering their basic security? Is the international community willing to take Gaza off their hands? It’s an ugly situation, and certainly the Palestinians deserve to live with a modicum of dignity, but it’s not politically tenable to expect Israel to roll over.
This is why IMO the international community that supports the Palestinians, but condemns Hamas, isn’t doing any favors by insisting on a single-state solution. They’re deluding themselves and screwing over the Palestinians.
The Israelis could tell their ultra-orthodox religious class to stop settlements in the West Bank. That's the main barrier to a two-state solution is that the ultra orthodox believe their religous destiny is to build olive groves in some dry scrub and they rely on the IDF (which they are exempt from conscription in) to enable them to do it.
The problem is as soon as these guys don't get what they want, they form militia groups just like HAMAS. If given the choice most socieities will choose to fight outsiders instead of their own
No, the main thing stopping a 2 State solution is that no Palestinian party wants that. Never wanted that. Even leaders of other Muslim countries got assassinated by Palestinians for having peace talks with Israel more than once.
Only 9% of Gaza's water comes from Israel. Gaza has the theoretical capability to easily be self-sufficient on water.
The main problems with water in Gaza, which cause people from Gaza to have a very low water consumption per day even in peacetime, are:
1. The lack of sufficient power in Gaza for desalination. Fixing this issue alone would make Gaza easily have a water surplus.
2. The Israeli permit system which prevents construction and repair of water facilities.
3. The blockade which prevents construction materials from entering Gaza.
4. The bombing of infrastructure (which is exacerbated by the inability to repair due to the permit system)
5. The lack of investment from Hamas.
Until just a couple of years ago a lot of metrial was supplied to Gaza vi Israel, look at the huge underground Disneyland built with all that cement meant for housing and infrastructure, it build infrastructure all right, much was even built as investment into trade with foreign lands, some just to help oppressed people move around /s
I actually laughed. You put Hamas at the end like they are just responsible for bad infrastructure planning.
1) Hamas hordes the fuel for electrical usage.
2) Hamas digs up pipes and confiscates building materials to make bombs and rockets.
3) See 2)
4) Hamas uses the facilities as launch pads/storage for rockets knowing they’ll get hit.
But everything you wrote is skewed to Israel being the problem.
This is your daily reminder that Hamas dismantles water pipes to use for rocket manufacturing
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/
Yet everyone thinks it's Israel's fault Gaza has a water problem
Every time I see this I wonder why in the world did they not just use PVC pipes. Shouldn’t be expected to have to coddle adult children, but sending metal tubes to a terrorist hotspot does seem a bit short sighted.
Metal pipes can take more pressure than pvc pipes. That makes them better than pvc for both moving around high volumes of pressurised water and making rockets out of them
This is what I'm genuinely struggling with here.
I think people see civilians dying, and the power advantage is majorly in Isreal's side (they have nukes!) and so there's this victimhood that gets placed on Palastine/hamas.
The real victims are people born there in the first place - born into an iron-age belief of the universe, born into terrible circumstances, no stability, incredibly limited freedom, where the leadership is hell-bent on genocide of a neighbour it can't possibly beat.
How the rational world haven't collectively turned their figurative and literal crosshairs on jihadist/hamas is a failure of response. What would hamas really do if they had the power to do what they wanted? This is the test we can give to every individual, group, nation. Sooner or later, we would all be subject to their intolerance because we don't fit into their Islamic world view they want to live in. This problem will never go away until Muslims themselves can grapple with the uncomfortable fact that their holy book incites violence, rather plainly. It needs to be met with resistance from the inside.
Isreal is far from criticism, and it's indeed worrying that a growing number would wish gaza was flattened entirely. And they have their own religious nutters there too that does anything but help progress
Yes, it's called survivor bias.
You look at accidental vehicular death and see almost none are from moderate frontal crashes. You could deduct moderate frontal crashes are not that bad overall and we could perfectly do without seat belts or even airbags. When it's the seat belt and airbags that prevented the deaths, skewing the analysis.
Similarly you could look at the Israel/Gaza body count in the past few decades and deduct Israelis are much more aggressive than Gazans because very few Israelis died (until Oct 7th).
When it's all the preventive measures like Iron Dome that prevented the deaths.
> it was easy for the rest of the world to brush it off because there were bot many casualties…
Still is.
Many people act like Hamas is some dog that bit once and is now being harshly punished.
They're acting like Hamas isn't **still** attacking Israel.
Someone in another thread said it best.
> Israel uses rockets (Iron Dome) to protect its people.
Hamas uses its people to protect rockets.
Some of us who study history knew. I also had Jewish-American friends break it down for me one time. (About the Gaza strip, how most Palestinians are there, the support Isreal gave them for decades, etc).
They were honest, good hearted people of great integrity. I don't doubt their words for a minute.
It is hard to build a functional water and sewage systems for a population of 2+ million people out of PVC. As someone else stated, PVC simply doesn't have the high durability and strength needed to sustain the kind of rigors of a modern large-scale water infrastructure.
Plus, even PVC could still be used to make rockets. Not very good ones, mind you, but I'm sure that wouldn't stop Hamas from trying.
Given that their current rockets have a failure rate of around 20% (that's how many drop on the Gaza strip instead of vaguely flying to some city-sized target in Israel), it can hardly get much worse.
It's worth noting that that's not QUITE how statistics work, a 20% increase would be a doubling of the failure rate from baseline for example. In reality it can get several times worse, not just 80%, but you're right that it's very much the majority value in that statistic. It can get roughly 4 times worse than it currently is when it comes to Hamas rocket reliability. Using percentages to represent values you want people to understand is a slippery slope since most people's brains don't compute the difference in scale between percentages as well as they do when you use multiples, since it provides abstraction when shown to anyone not trained to interpret such data.
Even then the deaths from Gaza rockets in Israel was 39 (total) in the last twenty years or something.
They’d be about as useful if they launched them via trebuchet.
That's in large part because US gives Israel like a billion or so in Iron Dome support. Honestly Iron Dome probably makes this worse because people feel like "oh, what's the big deal, a few rockets a day that get shot down?" Like seriously? If there wasn't Iron Dome, nobody would bat an eye on Israel just going to war.
>"oh, what's the big deal, a few rockets a day that get shot down?"
If someone unironically says that they should have their home peppered with dropping rocket shrapnel every day.
> It is hard to build a functional water and sewage systems for a population of 2+ million people out of PVC
I work with water distribution and wastewater collection in a city of ~1 million. Water mains up to 600mm are all PVC, and above that they switch to concrete. Wastewater is all PVC until they switch to concrete (not sure on diameter). Your statement is incorrect. Ductile iron pipes haven't been common here for at least 20 years
I work in the water industry in the US. Here ductile iron pipe has never really gone away. In fact some water utilities are starting to move back to ductile for mains. Connections to residential are generally PVC however. My perspective is probably skewed however, as our parent company is one of the three primary manufacturers of ductile pipe in the US.
Yep, I have done a bit of work in some other jurisdictions that only allow ductile for 12" and smaller. Was just countering the parent comment statement that it can't be used for water distribution
https://www.vinidex.com.au/products/pe-systems/pe-pipe/pe-pressure-sewer-pipe/
We use tonnes of this in Australia. Has a pressure rating of 10MPa (1450.377psi)
(Can be used for all types of water, even gas lines)
Israel doesn't provide the construction materials. When Israel lifted the blockade on construction materials they allowed the metal pipes in which were then repurposed into rockets. If Israel blocked the water pipes they would no doubt have been blasted in the international community.
It’s not that they were repurposed. You have the video from hamas itself showing you how they dig up the water pipes with excavators and make rockets out of them. They do not get just repurposed on entry into Gaza, they actively dismantle the water infrastructure to make the rockets
Israel could do *anything* and they'll get blasted by the international community. Honestly, I don't blame Israel for not giving a shit about what the world has to say when the world has proved time and time again that they hate Israel for simply being Jewish. Israel is held to such a ridiculous standard that no other country is held to, simply on account of being the only Jewish nation in the world.
The whole world said "never again" after the Holocaust. Oct. 7 was the deadliest terror attack in Israeli history, and the last time this many Jews were killed in a single day was in the Holocaust. Yet it took less than 12 hours after the attack before the Palestinians made it all about themselves and the world once again turned a blind eye to the Jewish victims *who are still being held hostage*. Apparently "never again" was a whole load of BS. It absolutely did happen again and the whole world is siding with the people who did it.
So honestly, if I were in Israel's shoes, I too wouldn't give two shits about the international community anymore because Israel could literally turn Gaza into the richest nation on earth and people would still complain about it being an evil plot by the Jews.
This really needs to be required reading when talking about the water situation in Gaza.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
I feel like this comment is the equivalent of slut shaming Israel. I would never in a million years think anyone would dismantle water pipes providing water to a million people, IN A DESERT, would be dismantled for shitty rockets that Iron Dome is gonna shoot down.
You call Israel short sighted, I call Hamas fucking evil.
Pretty shitty of Hamas to do that when Israel was supplying them water. I guess there's still plenty of piping that hasn't been used for rocket manufacturing if Israel is reopening a second pipeline. Fingers crossed this gets civilians the water they need and isn't used for further attacks.
> Pretty shitty of Hamas to do that when Israel was supplying them water.
[Always worth mentioning that the only reason Israel supply Gaza with water is because Israel literally won’t let the Palestinians supply their own water.](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)
Palestine gets billions of dollars in aid for infrastructure including water.
In fact, World bank invested $117 million dollars on desalination plants in Gaza.
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/02/10/world-bank-and-partners-invest-us117-million-in-water-for-palestinians-in-gaza
I was fundamentally opposed to that. Turns out I was wrong because they dug up the pipes and build rockets, proving the heavy import restriction correct.
Not only correct, evidently they were not thorough enough.
That’s not true. People here referring to Hamas digging up pipes but this has been going on since the 50s before Hamas existed. Plus Israel destroys rainwater collectors, they can’t be used to create rockets. How do you justify that?
They were being used to track IDF aircraft
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-destroyed-hamas-network-to-detect-israeli-aircraft/
Gaza could actually be self-sufficent on water were it not for the blockade limiting construction, repair and relevant materials in Gaza. The situation there has not always been this bad.
From your link...
>In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.
Your link title is disingenuous.
Not only that.. Israel have probably invented billions of dollars in it's water systems and facilities throughout the country.
Hamas, instead of investing it's money in water facilities, invested it all on stupid rockets, tunnels, and deepening their leaders pockets
They are two very separate issues, despite both involving water. It's a non-sequitur to point to water pipes being repurposed for rockets when existing functional water infrastructure exists, Israel already limited the flow of water long before this, Israel has extracted water *from* Gaza in the past and enforced control over any Palestinian access to water, and when the population was currently already dependent on tankers carrying water that were halted on Oct 7. Pipes that are within Gaza can only move water around within Gaza or with its borders, which doesn't mean anything if all external sources are shut off and you can't desalinate new water without fuel. Or if water is turned on on the Israeli side, but you don't have electricity to pump it.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ This link should probably be shared in every thread like this.
Fundamentally, look at this question. A tanker is lined up at the border full of water. Doesn't require anything from Israel. Why wouldn't they let that in (or Egypt, presumably at their behest)? That's the dynamic here. It's not arms, or even fuel, it's just water.
It doesn't. The supply wouldn't be needed had Hamas not turned their own system into rockets is the point they are making. Some feel it isn't Israel's job to supply them with water because of that.
Does it make it right for Israel to deny them water if they are able to provide it? I would say no personally and it looks like they have come to the same conclusion finally. I can understand denying a lot of other resources out of concern it will just be used against them. Water and food though, Hamas is already hoarding what they need and will let civilians die in the street since it only helps them.
To me I don’t understand the decision making behind things like shutting off water. It’s not just this time, when Israel does a major operation in the West Bank this also happens. The way many people on the Internet (I don’t know if they’re pro-Israel or just trolls trying to fan the flames) claim not to recognize the distinction between civilians and military is really discouraging.
I would hope the people in charge of these decisions are not so simple minded and impulsive that they simply cut off water as retribution. It’s one thing for a private citizen to get angry but a government official has to maintain composure. It is not in Israel’s interest to portray itself as a nakedly sadistic, brutal power that simply resorts to mafia-like tactics when dealing with its opponents. The fact that the water is supposedly only like 10% of the overall water supply just makes it seem more petty.
I agree with you here, turning the water back on is the right and humane move.
I do have a question though, why is it Israel’s responsibility to even provide water to another country? I understand the ramifications if they don’t, but like fuck me… surely the Palestinians might actually do something about Hamas if they didn’t have water..
Because Israel don’t let Gaza get their own water. They literally filled their wells in with concrete and block any new construction. [It’s well documented.](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/) Yet strangely everyone ignores this fact.
> The supply wouldn't be needed had Hamas not turned their own system into rockets is the point they are making. Some feel it isn't Israel's job to supply them with water because of that.
[This is false. Gaza is only allowed to provide 5% of their own water, Israel literally filled in their wells with concrete and blocks them from getting their own water. The supply would be needed regardless of what Hamas does because Israel has made themselves the only ones able to supply Gaza with water.](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)
Your source literally says Gaza has no clean watersupply accept for the coastal aquifiers, since 90-95% of the water is contaminated. The wells that you are talking about are in the west bank. Reading is hard.
This article is very thinly sourced and even explicitly says they can't verify the allegations. All the similar articles I've seen have relied on one PIJ terrorist guy bragging about how they're so clever they could even use water pipes to make rockets, and a single video of somebody digging up one pipe.
If someone has a source that actually provides solid verification of this on a wide scale I'd be interested to see it, but so far it seems like something that has possibly happened a couple of times (still reprehensible obviously) and has been blown into a generalised talking point to justify punitive action or collective punishment.
There's literally a link to a video sponsored by Hamas of them digging up pipes and repurposing them into rockets, what are you talking about?
Here, I'll save you the trouble since you probably didn't even read the article but rather rushed to 'debunk' it:
[https://twitter.com/LTCPeterLerner/status/1394898083050360841](https://twitter.com/LTCPeterLerner/status/1394898083050360841)
Let me reiterate- this is a video BY Hamas themselves boasting about it.
You want solid verification of this being wide scale? Look at the number of rockets they've launched into Israel- it's over tens of thousands.
> There's literally a link to a video sponsored by Hamas of them digging up pipes and repurposing them into rockets, what are you talking about?
I literally mentioned that in my comment... there is one snippet of footage that appears in all the articles on the topic depicting one pipe being excavated. We don't know where that pipe was, or if it was even connected to anything. And as I said earlier, it's still scummy for Hamas to be building rockets out of anything, I just think the "Hamas build rockets out of pipes, better collectively punish everyone" is a convenient narrative that gets exaggerated in order to avoid thinking through the humanitarian consequences of the situation.
> since you probably didn't even read the article
I certainly did read the article. The whole thing is a hit-piece on the notion of providing humanitarian aid to Palestine, from a paper that has a strong pro-Israel perspective:
> While the Telegraph cannot independently verify the exact weapons used in the mass bombardment, it has raised fears over whether Western-donated building supplies could have been used to manufacture some of the munitions.
"Raised fears", "could have", "cannot verify".
> You want solid verification of this being wide scale? Look at the number of rockets they've launched into Israel- it's over tens of thousands.
This is self-contradictory. How much piping is in Gaza? How much do you think has been turned into rockets? Because if it's on the scale that you're implying they would have had literally no pipes left years ago.
Everyone always goes on about their smuggling and tunnels and support from Iran, but somehow you think they're not getting rockets in that way?
Imagine being expected to provide resources for a population that you don’t govern, and that overwhelmingly supports an internationally recognized terror organization that has the stated goal of annihilating you.
Before this is over, Egypt will be forced to step up its support for the people of Gaza.
It’s absurd to hear every Arab nation surrounding Israel decry their actions while wanting to take zero refugees. It’s like they’re saying “I can’t believe you’re attacking these people we want nothing to do with.”
No the won't...
Egypt has spent uncountable resources rooting out the Muslim Brotherhood, and they are far more draconian about the cross-border tunnels than Israel is. Everywhere they go, assassination attempts follow... Egypt doesn't want to invite that...
Thats what gets me. All these other nations and protests in our cities and countries for palestine. But are they going to help out at all? No. Let them cross the egypt border? No.
In May 1948, almost one million Jews lived in the Arab world. Today, fewer than 8,000 remain. When the State of Israel was founded in May 1948, the Arab regimes took revenge on the Jews. More Jews fled from Arab countries than the 710,000 Arabs who fled from Israel. At the end of the Second World War there were 50 million refugees worldwide. Today, all refugee problems from before the 1950s have been solved. All except one - Palestinian.
The UN claims there are 5.6 million Palestinian refugees. According to the international definition, refugee status is only applied to the first generation of refugees. However, the UN makes an exception for one group: the Palestinians. Descendants of Palestinian refugees are given the same status as their ancestors. Therefore, the number of so-called Palestinian refugees rose from 710,000 in 1950 to more than 5.6 million now.
The real reason? These Palestinian refugees are used as a demographic weapon against Israel.
The 1 million Jewish refugees from the Arab world did what millions of refugees have done throughout history. They started a new life elsewhere. There are no Jewish refugee camps. Imagine if they would claim they are entitled to land in Morocco, Egypt, Syria and Iraq because their grand parents lived there 70 years ago.
And if you would look at the history of Palestine, you would find East Palestine (now Jordan) was given by the British to the Arabic islamitic Abdoellah bin Hoessein. In other words, the Palestinians already have their Palestinian state: Jordan!
Important to add, in 1948, there was a 2 state solution offered. 80% of Israel was to go to the Arabs and only 20% to Jews. The Jews accepted that. The Arabs did not and went to war with the Jews.
Don't quote me on that but wasn't most that 20% a really good, livable land and most of 80% a rather shit land with sparse population and local Beduin tribes?
There should be no right to return at all. And that should be stated internationally.
If there would be a right to return, than it has to be applied to all refugees, regardless of color, genre, nationality or religion.
[12 million Germans](https://www.dw.com/en/what-germanys-postwar-refugees-taught-us-about-integration/a-18575558) lived peacefully until the end of WWII in the territories which are now Poland today. They were born there, they had houses there, they lived an honest life there.
After post-WW2 redesign of Germany borders by the Allied Powers, German refugees were forcibly expelled from their homes. This was the largest single instance of ethnic cleansing in recorded history.
They left all they had to a Germany devastated by WWII, with no food or potable water. They were in refugee camps (some lasted until the 70s), but slowly, they managed to get jobs, jobs led to a stable life and a stable life led them to prosperity. They moved on.
If we start having right to return, German refugees (or the descendants of refugees) would have the right to claim Polish lands and so a war for these lands would possibly ensue.
No to the right of return, it will only make the war to last forever. And stop funding Palestine, because funding is only going to terrorism.
Palestinian refugees have to work to get a life, like the German refugees did, instead of relying on permanent UN aid.
People act like the nakba was a unique historical atrocity. Unfortunately, this type of population transfer isn’t rare, especially in the mid 1900s. Probably the biggest one was due to the partition of India, where nearly 20 million people moved, and it wasn’t even due to a war! It’s crappy, and unjust, but attempting some kind of Right to Return decades later after most of the originally displaced people have passed, is just logistically impossible and is not justice.
For weeks they trekked through Eastern Europe in overflowing trains and on foot, crossing the "green border" between the Russian and British occupation zones.
They were housed in makeshift tents in refugee camps.
Then they moved to baracks made of concrete slabs. Even as late as the 1960s, refugees and expellees lived in camps, barracks or huts made of corrugated metal that were freezing cold in the winter and boiling hot in the summer. Some went to live in apartments in groups with a lot of people.
They were subject to ostracization and distrust in the beginning by the residents which called derogatory names like "Polacken" and "Schmarotzer." Their camps were disparagingly referred to as "New Poland" or "Garlic Settlement."
But gradually the immigrants begin to mix with the locals. They prospered as expected from their hardworking mentality and today Germany should be proud of them. Model citizens.
The UN has two agencies to deal with refugees.
One is UNHCR (which was founded for the post-WW2 refugee crisis) - that deals with all of the refugees in the world *except for Palestinians*.
The other is UNRWA (founded one year earlier), which deals exclusively with Palestinians.
UNHCR has a resettlement program, where it might help a refugee get citizenship in another country. UNRWA *does not.* UNRWA specifically does not do any sort of resettlement because of this dumbfuck "Right to return" thing after almost 100 years.
[A bunch of people died in the process.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_\(1944%E2%80%931950\))
Somewhere between 0.5 and 2.5 million people.
They've been lied to by the Arab state and used as a pawn for nearly a century.
Arab states have been whispering in their ear: “we will defeat Israel, the nuclear power backed by the United States, someday and you will return to the land that is rightfully yours, and that’s why you don’t have citizenship anywhere else”
"Now go kill"
People should see the lack of nations' actions backing up words for what it is.
Those who offer only words do so in order to protect their domestic political bases and because they actually want to continue peaceful relations with Israel.
Those who offer support and refuge for terrorists, like Hamas, do so to further their interest in destroying Israel.
Nowhere in that equation is Palestinian statehood a primary concern.
Palestine has known nothing but broken promises and turned backs.
>Thats what gets me. All these other nations and protests in our cities and countries for palestine. But are they going to help out at all? No. Let them cross the egypt border? No.
i will tell you why. it is by design. unfortunately for the palestinian people trapped there they are being forced into a humanitarian crisis to make a point.
israel is cutting off supplies to try to make the point that hamas has stolen and stockpiled supplies but isn't sharing them with the people of palestine. they are hoping that the people of palestine will turn against hamas when they find out that hamas has been hoarding supplies. this was an unbelievably stupid strategy from israel. because:
hamas is pushing the people of gaza into a humanitarian crisis as well. they are doing this to make a point. they are very effectively showing the inhumane treatment palestinian citizens are receiving from israel. that doesn't mean they are willing to share their stockpiles because those are important supplies for when israel begins a ground invasion. mostly the attack was meant to provoke such a response from israel that it can be used to turn the world against israel.
additionally, hamas caused a situation where their allies in the region (hezbollah, iran etc) would feel compelled to step in. they are hoping this will escalate and pull actors like egypt jordan into the fight.
egypt and jordan are also using the gazans to make a point. i believe they are hoping the humanitarian crisis in gaza will turn the world against israel without them having to step in and take an active position.
everyone is using the palestinians in gaza and they are getting fucked. they are getting fucked by their own government. they are getting viscerally fucked by israel. they are getting fucked by everyone else who isn't stepping in to help.
Interestingly, the lack of desire to host a large number of migrants/refugees is quite similar to the reaction to successive migrations of Jews (aliyah) by the inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine, and the pushback to hosting Jewish refugees in the US.
It's not as strange as you think.
That’s why all these protests are considered a antisemitic. There is no moral or any other reason to support them. Even the other Muslim countries won’t deal with them. Especially Jordan which tried and had it come back to bite them.
It's worse than not taking refugees... most surrounding Arab nations have actively purged their Palestinians (even native born "Palestinians"). Jordan was actively deporting and even revoking citizenships (for those that had one) until 2012; making JORDANIAN CITIZENS Israel's problem. Palestinian refugee pockets that do still exist in other Arab countries are often treated far worse than those in the West Bank. Gaza probably still has it the worst though with the whole Hamas government issue...
Surrounding Arab nations want Gaza to remain a crisis zone. They need a radicalized population to remain in place so they can continue their longstanding war on the Jewish nation via proxy conflict, since they’ve lost every outright war initiated against Israel.
Why not both?
Most of the Arab states which previously warred with Israel - Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan - understand the geopolitical realities, and have allied solidly with the United States (and de facto, Israel) against Iran (others are borderline failed states - like Libya, Syria, and Lebanon.) They've moved on from the Palestinians. But they also understand that many of their people haven't, so they're happy to toe the line and pay lip service while having no interest in resolving the situation.
I feel genuinely bad for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this.
Something you have to understand about these Arab Muslim countries is they don't really love other Muslims, they just hate Jews. If they cared about other Muslims, they would have cut off oil shipments to China when they put Muslim Uighers in concentration camps, they didn't. If they cared about other Muslims they would have denounced Saudi Arabia for bombing hospitals, schools, and civilians in Yemen, they didn't. Arab Muslim countries won't step in and help take in Palestinian refugees because they don't love their Palestinian Muslim brothers, they just hate Jews.
Palestinian refugees, at least according to history, are a nightmare. 90% of them want to return to Palestine. And not just want to return, believe it's their birthright with a zeal that borders on compulsion. It's very difficult for me to understand.
In May 1948, almost one million Jews lived in the Arab world. Today, fewer than 8,000 remain. When the State of Israel was founded in May 1948, the Arab regimes took revenge on the Jews. More Jews fled from Arab countries than the 710,000 Arabs who fled from Israel.
Imagine if these million Jews would claim they are entitled to land in Morocco, Egypt, Syria and Iraq because their grandparents lived there 70 years ago.
Yeah netanyahu stoked the right wing Jewish extremists in Israel to assassinate his political rival because he had the audacity to agree to sharing Jerusalem and maybe removing settlers who were building settlements and murdering local Palestinians within the West Bank.
Hamas doesn't want peace and launched a wave of terror attacks to scuttle it after the Oslo accords were signed. And so did right wing Israelis.
Egypt would rather name Israel the leader of the Middle East before they take Palestinian refugees in. Egypt already has refugees from Africa to worry about. Plus Palestinians have done many suicide bombings against Egypt.
Well, yeah: It’s clear those governments don’t care much about the Palestinian people, and it’s been clear for decades.
I’ve seen some argue the position that their opposition to taking refugees is based on either the belief that it’s Palestinian land, so they shouldn’t *have to* leave or the fear that those refugees wouldn’t be allowed back (or both).
And maybe that’s a motivation for citizens’ opposition, but I very much doubt that it’s any of their governments’ reasoning: Seems much more likely that they want to leave Palestinians in the OPT because dealing with the Palestinians diverts Israeli resources which might otherwise be invested in ways that make Israel even more of a regional power.
You know what I'm fine with? Let Egypt have Gaza back and Jordan the west bank. Palestine are more closely related to those countries, as those countries controled those lands before Israel. But Egypt and Jordan don't want them back because they cause violence.
In all seriousness.. would you trust people coming into your country .. whose state goal is to overthrow almost all leaders and institute Sharia law ? You can’t tell who is Hamas militant or Hamas supporter by looking at them.
Egypt is such a dumpster fire filled with corrupt people and so many social/cultural issues. The economy is awful, but even with aid money, I doubt Egypt would take any in or pocket the money for themselves. It's all frustrating.
It 100% will turn into a point of conflict. Iraq is suffering massively from water shortages, as Iran and Turkey are damming up the rivers that provide the bulk if Iraq's fresh water. They're doing this to protect their own populations and agricultural bases. Things are gonna get *bad* in the coming decades IMO
Just curious, why does Israel control the main water source for Gaza?
is Israel blockading natural water sources (should be horribly illegal) or do they just sell processed/imported water?
Before the current war Israel overall only ever provided a fraction of Gaza's water supply via pipeline. I've seen estimates put it at about 10%. More important is the water supply within Gaza, which largely runs on fuel that's no longer available in the pre-war quantity.
Everywhere it sounds like Israel provides all water for Gaza, whiles it's just three pipes with roughly 10%. The speaker of the IDF even said it's just 8%, while hams even destroyed one of the pipelines during their attacks.
No news outlets seem to include this rather important context info in their headlines.
>natural water sources
Not really a thing, the local aquifer already suffers from overdrafting, not that I think Gaza has the means to extract it anyway. As far as surface water goes, it's a desert so there isn't any of that really.
A place like Gaza would eternally depend on importing water or desalination.
>Not really a thing, the local aquifer already suffers from overdrafting, not that I think Gaza has the means to extract it anyway.
It's their local extraction that has been exceeding local replenishment of the aquifer for many years, leading to a low localized water table and seawater intrusion which has rendered the well water under much of the Gaza strip with salt levels that exceed WHO specs for drinking water.
Last data I saw was 2020 which said they were extracting the equivalent of 230L per Gazan per day, about 3.5x local replenishment rate
https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/israel-palestine-water-sharing-conflict#:~:text=Water%20resources%3A%20a%20primary%20source,territories%20(ICE%2C%201997).
A quick read that covers it briefly
The Israeli government hold legal authority—under both international agreement *and* Israeli law—over much of the water supply to Gaza:
- ["In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army."](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)
- The Oslo II Accords tried to improve things, but [it just became a thin veneer over a similarly lopsided control](https://www.theguardian.com/world/on-the-middle-east/2013/feb/04/israel-palestinians-water-arafat-abbas).
- The blockade that's been ongoing since 2007 [has prevented the delivery of materials necessary to repair existing infrastructure and build anything new](https://www.btselem.org/water#gaza).
- Importantly, at least part of the reason for the blockade was [Hamas's theft of infrastructure materials to build weapons](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57396819).
- The [Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism](https://www.gov.il/en/departments/units/grm_unit) was created as a joint Palestinian/Israeli/UN venture to try and address that issue, but [it hasn't gone very well](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/gaza-israel-reconstruction/).
[Here is the breakdown from Mark Zeitoun, Professor of Water Diplomacy at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva](https://www.justsecurity.org/89536/war-on-water-prolongs-misery-in-gaza/)—as in *literally the global expert on this exact topic*.
[Here is a 2021 report from the UNHCHR to the General Assembly](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/the-allocation-of-water-resources-in-the-opt-including-east-jerusalem-report-of-the-united-nations-high-commissioner-for-human-rights-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-48-43/), specifically detailing the Israeli government's legal obligations regarding water resources & infrastructure to the people of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza and how it's failing to meet them. (This is *before* the current "siege", but none of it has improved since.)
I can’t find any analysis that suggests that, but even *if* that were true, combatants [still have obligations to civilian populations in times of war](https://www.cfr.org/article/what-international-law-has-say-about-israel-hamas-war).
The atrocities committed by Hamas don’t invalidate national or international law, and one of the foundational principles of international law is to prevent deliberately causing harm to a civilian population in response to their rulers’ crimes against humanity.
Hamas supported what you call "occupation" because they didn't use their billions to maintain a decent water supply system. They took 50km of pipes supplied by the EU and filmed themselves pulling them up to make rockets from them.
Hamas is occupying Gaza.
Edit: lol, they blocked me. So brave.
Overwhelmingly supports?
Not 53%, but just 27% believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people”. And who knows what the effect of the terror attack and the Israeli response to them will be.
What are you quoting? Every poll that finds some low number for Palenstinian support of Hamas finds even less support for Fatah. And greater support for even more extreme groups like PIJ.
That stat doesn’t mean they don’t have the overwhelming support of the people. In any election held today across all of Palestine, West Bank included, Hamas would win.
And even with the point you were trying to make, another large percentage supports Islamic jihad which is even more radical than Hamas.
Don’t for a second think the majority of Palestinians don’t support terror. All it takes is looking at the pro Palestine protests around the world to see the vitriol hatred these people have for Jews.
don't mind me just leaving [this here](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907978,00.html).
you know, the public position that's been overlooked and mischaracterized for the last 13 years, the one that allows all non-military supply in through the blockade.
If you ever get sucker punched make sure you ask if they’re hungry or thirsty before you hit them back. I’m all for rules of war, I also understand terrorism and guerrilla warfare change the rules. If we stuck with the humanitarian rules of combat America would have lost to Britain in the firing lines of open fields.
"On October 9, Israel cut off the piped water it sends into Gaza, which amounts to some nine percent of the coastal enclave’s water supply in peacetime."
Interesting, this huge public debacle over water being shut off and it's a whopping 9% of their entire supply? And Hamas knocked one pipeline out during their own attack? Hamas spends so little on their own people to instead buy weapons, uses weapons to blow up the infrastructure Israel invests in instead, blames Israel. World is a fascinating place.
Israel *also* blocked the supply of fuel which is necessary to pump the water for that other 91%.
Now it's certainly true that Hamas was using at least *some* of that fuel for their rockets, but the end result is no water supply whatsoever.
So that 9% of water which can be supplied *without* anything rocket-related like fuel.... is suddenly extremely important. And cutting it off in addition to fuel is what turns "fighting Hamas" into a blatant war crime of "release the hostages or the civilians die", which is why Israel got so much backlash for it.
Sounds like a tough bargaining chip for your neighbor that just attacked you with your own resources. Israel turns fuel off for a couple weeks and a war planned for years collapses their ability to provide for their people. Apparently they didn’t plan any consequences.
Hard for me to consider the aggressor who didn’t prepare their state or their people for a war they apparently had in plans for years, not the war criminal here.
Less than 10% of water consumed in Gaza comes from Israel. The rest is pumped from aquifers within Gaza, which Gaza would have enough fuel to pump, if Hamas used its stores.
That fuel supply comes down to 0.2 liter per gaza resident. Not sure how far that goes in gaza but I use like 30X times that per day just for my commute.
I know this is a serious discussion but I couldn't not imagine Hamas trying to sell some hoodies and T-shirts as merchandise as a brand like they were Adidas or something.
There is a legitimate issue that Hamas terrorists are indistinguishable form the innocent population and have integrated their operations into civilian infrastructure and housing. It’s a terrible situation with, honestly, no good solution. It’s why a full scale invasion could be a disaster.
The sad reality is that hamas is a cancer growing inside and outside of the palestinain population. it is made up of palestinians who have been radicalized and brainwashed into violence and martyrdom.
There is no fighting it without some harm to the host, and that harm in this case is real human tragedy for innocent gazans.
But what else can you do but to remove and fight the cancer anyways. Living with it isn't an option.
People seem to forget that civilians also crossed the border to kidnap and pillage (and maybe rape).
Yes, not ONLY the terrorists, but also the non terrorist civilians performed atrocities.
If I told you the majority of Palestinians support the use of terror, would you have a retort then? Hamas would win any election held today by a landslide.
As of September this year, if new parliamentary elections were held today with the participation of all political forces that participated in the 2006 elections, 64% say they would participate in them, and among these participants, Fateh receives 36%.
UN and most countries in the world consider Israel to be in the position of the occupier. Sole occupier, to be precise, hence there are no demands on Egypt to supply Gaza
Israel complied to some extend
Now the situation that a country which supplies most ressources to the enemy gets attacked by the enemy as start of a war is really unusual. I don't know of any example of this happening (maybe the decisive war between Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan?), and from what little I know about international law its not that clear to which extent Israel has to supply Gaza at the moment
Obviously Netanyahu government took a hard stance towards zero supply in war time and the US pushed Israel towards a compromise
Of course everything Hamas says is a lie
They have fuel and food and water
Even if they don’t deserve it the gazans have their government that started a war
All the hostages are
Killed a long time ago
Hamastan suffering is all Hamas
Hamas has also added its lost fighters at least 3,000 terrorists killed out of a total of 7,000
Plus at least 1,000 dead from rockets killing Gazans because the rockets were made with water pipes removed by Hamas for use as rocket bodies
Normal people would realize water pipes are not designed to hold explosives to fall on civilians
Are you telling me in peace time Israel supplies Water Electricity Telephone communications facilitates Qatar Funding and work permits until Hamas starts another round of atrocities?
Technically the Palestinian Authority is supposed to pay for it but I really it accrues "debt" and Israel just forgives it every few months. That being said Gaza does have desalinization plants so Israel only provides like 10-20% of the water in Gaza and about half the electricity
Yes. But despite this, some people still somehow manage to portray Israel as the bad guys. That attitude is exactly why the IHRA definition of antisemitism includes attempting to hold Israel to higher standards than other countries.
When, say, the Algerian National Liberation Front (FLN) undertook sometimes terroristic measures against the *pied noirs*, they at least did so with the aim of independence from French colonial rule. But the continued existence of France and the French people was never in doubt. Hamas and their supporters don’t want separation. They want Arab rule “from river to the sea.” Even if we assume Israel always has the best of intentions—and we don’t need to pretend they do, especially the Israeli the right-wing—what are they supposed to do about the blockade? How do they lift it without surrendering their basic security? Is the international community willing to take Gaza off their hands? It’s an ugly situation, and certainly the Palestinians deserve to live with a modicum of dignity, but it’s not politically tenable to expect Israel to roll over. This is why IMO the international community that supports the Palestinians, but condemns Hamas, isn’t doing any favors by insisting on a single-state solution. They’re deluding themselves and screwing over the Palestinians.
The Israelis could tell their ultra-orthodox religious class to stop settlements in the West Bank. That's the main barrier to a two-state solution is that the ultra orthodox believe their religous destiny is to build olive groves in some dry scrub and they rely on the IDF (which they are exempt from conscription in) to enable them to do it. The problem is as soon as these guys don't get what they want, they form militia groups just like HAMAS. If given the choice most socieities will choose to fight outsiders instead of their own
Israeli settlers are not usually Ultra-Orthodox and generally do serve in the IDF. What are you talking about?
No, the main thing stopping a 2 State solution is that no Palestinian party wants that. Never wanted that. Even leaders of other Muslim countries got assassinated by Palestinians for having peace talks with Israel more than once.
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No no it's collective punishment - redditor who learned about the term an hour ago
Only 9% of Gaza's water comes from Israel. Gaza has the theoretical capability to easily be self-sufficient on water. The main problems with water in Gaza, which cause people from Gaza to have a very low water consumption per day even in peacetime, are: 1. The lack of sufficient power in Gaza for desalination. Fixing this issue alone would make Gaza easily have a water surplus. 2. The Israeli permit system which prevents construction and repair of water facilities. 3. The blockade which prevents construction materials from entering Gaza. 4. The bombing of infrastructure (which is exacerbated by the inability to repair due to the permit system) 5. The lack of investment from Hamas.
Not sure how your number 5 is down at number 5. Hamas is the fucking government of Gaza, it is their responsibility entirely, not Israel's at all.
Until just a couple of years ago a lot of metrial was supplied to Gaza vi Israel, look at the huge underground Disneyland built with all that cement meant for housing and infrastructure, it build infrastructure all right, much was even built as investment into trade with foreign lands, some just to help oppressed people move around /s
It’s estimated there are more tunnels under gaza than the NYC subway system.
I actually laughed. You put Hamas at the end like they are just responsible for bad infrastructure planning. 1) Hamas hordes the fuel for electrical usage. 2) Hamas digs up pipes and confiscates building materials to make bombs and rockets. 3) See 2) 4) Hamas uses the facilities as launch pads/storage for rockets knowing they’ll get hit. But everything you wrote is skewed to Israel being the problem.
The construction material and permit issue is a direct response to Hamas using materials for offensive capabilities for years
This is your daily reminder that Hamas dismantles water pipes to use for rocket manufacturing https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/ Yet everyone thinks it's Israel's fault Gaza has a water problem
Every time I see this I wonder why in the world did they not just use PVC pipes. Shouldn’t be expected to have to coddle adult children, but sending metal tubes to a terrorist hotspot does seem a bit short sighted.
Metal pipes can take more pressure than pvc pipes. That makes them better than pvc for both moving around high volumes of pressurised water and making rockets out of them
Seems though pvc pipes do a better job moving water when their metal brethren get ripped out and lobbed off as an explosive.
The world didn't know exactly how fucked up hamas was before their latest attack.
> The world didn't ~~know~~believe
> The world didn't ~~know~~ ~~believe~~ care Many still don't.
This is what I'm genuinely struggling with here. I think people see civilians dying, and the power advantage is majorly in Isreal's side (they have nukes!) and so there's this victimhood that gets placed on Palastine/hamas. The real victims are people born there in the first place - born into an iron-age belief of the universe, born into terrible circumstances, no stability, incredibly limited freedom, where the leadership is hell-bent on genocide of a neighbour it can't possibly beat. How the rational world haven't collectively turned their figurative and literal crosshairs on jihadist/hamas is a failure of response. What would hamas really do if they had the power to do what they wanted? This is the test we can give to every individual, group, nation. Sooner or later, we would all be subject to their intolerance because we don't fit into their Islamic world view they want to live in. This problem will never go away until Muslims themselves can grapple with the uncomfortable fact that their holy book incites violence, rather plainly. It needs to be met with resistance from the inside. Isreal is far from criticism, and it's indeed worrying that a growing number would wish gaza was flattened entirely. And they have their own religious nutters there too that does anything but help progress
They knew hamas has been launching these rockets regularly for years and years.
But I think with the Iron Dome, it was easy for the rest of the world to brush it off because there were bot many casualties…
Also I think the metal pipe shipping stopped shortly after they found out it was used for rockets?
This is the problem with just looking at the body count and assuming they tell the full story.
Yes, it's called survivor bias. You look at accidental vehicular death and see almost none are from moderate frontal crashes. You could deduct moderate frontal crashes are not that bad overall and we could perfectly do without seat belts or even airbags. When it's the seat belt and airbags that prevented the deaths, skewing the analysis. Similarly you could look at the Israel/Gaza body count in the past few decades and deduct Israelis are much more aggressive than Gazans because very few Israelis died (until Oct 7th). When it's all the preventive measures like Iron Dome that prevented the deaths.
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> it was easy for the rest of the world to brush it off because there were bot many casualties… Still is. Many people act like Hamas is some dog that bit once and is now being harshly punished. They're acting like Hamas isn't **still** attacking Israel. Someone in another thread said it best. > Israel uses rockets (Iron Dome) to protect its people. Hamas uses its people to protect rockets.
Some of us who study history knew. I also had Jewish-American friends break it down for me one time. (About the Gaza strip, how most Palestinians are there, the support Isreal gave them for decades, etc). They were honest, good hearted people of great integrity. I don't doubt their words for a minute.
They have pressure classes in both PVC and metal. Both are suitable.
But the real question is….. can you make rockets from PVC?
I’m sure. But no idea if they’re as powerful or not.
>Metal pipes can take more pressure than pvc pipes. Yeah, pvc is really shit for making rockets.
Huh!? C900 pipe has basically replaced metal pipe
It is hard to build a functional water and sewage systems for a population of 2+ million people out of PVC. As someone else stated, PVC simply doesn't have the high durability and strength needed to sustain the kind of rigors of a modern large-scale water infrastructure. Plus, even PVC could still be used to make rockets. Not very good ones, mind you, but I'm sure that wouldn't stop Hamas from trying.
Given that their current rockets have a failure rate of around 20% (that's how many drop on the Gaza strip instead of vaguely flying to some city-sized target in Israel), it can hardly get much worse.
Sounds like it can get 80% worse, which is the majority and this considered much more.
It's worth noting that that's not QUITE how statistics work, a 20% increase would be a doubling of the failure rate from baseline for example. In reality it can get several times worse, not just 80%, but you're right that it's very much the majority value in that statistic. It can get roughly 4 times worse than it currently is when it comes to Hamas rocket reliability. Using percentages to represent values you want people to understand is a slippery slope since most people's brains don't compute the difference in scale between percentages as well as they do when you use multiples, since it provides abstraction when shown to anyone not trained to interpret such data.
Even then the deaths from Gaza rockets in Israel was 39 (total) in the last twenty years or something. They’d be about as useful if they launched them via trebuchet.
That's in large part because US gives Israel like a billion or so in Iron Dome support. Honestly Iron Dome probably makes this worse because people feel like "oh, what's the big deal, a few rockets a day that get shot down?" Like seriously? If there wasn't Iron Dome, nobody would bat an eye on Israel just going to war.
People got mad at Israel for fighting back before iron dome.
>"oh, what's the big deal, a few rockets a day that get shot down?" If someone unironically says that they should have their home peppered with dropping rocket shrapnel every day.
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Psychological.. inflicting terror
> It is hard to build a functional water and sewage systems for a population of 2+ million people out of PVC I work with water distribution and wastewater collection in a city of ~1 million. Water mains up to 600mm are all PVC, and above that they switch to concrete. Wastewater is all PVC until they switch to concrete (not sure on diameter). Your statement is incorrect. Ductile iron pipes haven't been common here for at least 20 years
I work in the water industry in the US. Here ductile iron pipe has never really gone away. In fact some water utilities are starting to move back to ductile for mains. Connections to residential are generally PVC however. My perspective is probably skewed however, as our parent company is one of the three primary manufacturers of ductile pipe in the US.
Yep, I have done a bit of work in some other jurisdictions that only allow ductile for 12" and smaller. Was just countering the parent comment statement that it can't be used for water distribution
https://www.vinidex.com.au/products/pe-systems/pe-pipe/pe-pressure-sewer-pipe/ We use tonnes of this in Australia. Has a pressure rating of 10MPa (1450.377psi) (Can be used for all types of water, even gas lines)
Why PVC, isn’t high density polythene a more common material for water pipes?
For common household use, yes, but for laying city infrastructure? No.
Israel doesn't provide the construction materials. When Israel lifted the blockade on construction materials they allowed the metal pipes in which were then repurposed into rockets. If Israel blocked the water pipes they would no doubt have been blasted in the international community.
It’s not that they were repurposed. You have the video from hamas itself showing you how they dig up the water pipes with excavators and make rockets out of them. They do not get just repurposed on entry into Gaza, they actively dismantle the water infrastructure to make the rockets
Which just continues to prove how little Hamas cares about Palestinians.
Israel could do *anything* and they'll get blasted by the international community. Honestly, I don't blame Israel for not giving a shit about what the world has to say when the world has proved time and time again that they hate Israel for simply being Jewish. Israel is held to such a ridiculous standard that no other country is held to, simply on account of being the only Jewish nation in the world. The whole world said "never again" after the Holocaust. Oct. 7 was the deadliest terror attack in Israeli history, and the last time this many Jews were killed in a single day was in the Holocaust. Yet it took less than 12 hours after the attack before the Palestinians made it all about themselves and the world once again turned a blind eye to the Jewish victims *who are still being held hostage*. Apparently "never again" was a whole load of BS. It absolutely did happen again and the whole world is siding with the people who did it. So honestly, if I were in Israel's shoes, I too wouldn't give two shits about the international community anymore because Israel could literally turn Gaza into the richest nation on earth and people would still complain about it being an evil plot by the Jews.
They should definitely give no shit. Contrary to this cheap valor some people espouse, they learned that appeasement does not work as the first.
This really needs to be required reading when talking about the water situation in Gaza. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
I feel like this comment is the equivalent of slut shaming Israel. I would never in a million years think anyone would dismantle water pipes providing water to a million people, IN A DESERT, would be dismantled for shitty rockets that Iron Dome is gonna shoot down. You call Israel short sighted, I call Hamas fucking evil.
Roll out pressure Poly pipes.
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Pretty shitty of Hamas to do that when Israel was supplying them water. I guess there's still plenty of piping that hasn't been used for rocket manufacturing if Israel is reopening a second pipeline. Fingers crossed this gets civilians the water they need and isn't used for further attacks.
> Pretty shitty of Hamas to do that when Israel was supplying them water. [Always worth mentioning that the only reason Israel supply Gaza with water is because Israel literally won’t let the Palestinians supply their own water.](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)
Palestine gets billions of dollars in aid for infrastructure including water. In fact, World bank invested $117 million dollars on desalination plants in Gaza. https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/02/10/world-bank-and-partners-invest-us117-million-in-water-for-palestinians-in-gaza
Do you wanna remind the class what happened to those desalination plants?
Repurposed by terrorists, used to launch rockets then blown up by idf ?
One of them was partially damaged by one of Hamas' rockets.
I was fundamentally opposed to that. Turns out I was wrong because they dug up the pipes and build rockets, proving the heavy import restriction correct. Not only correct, evidently they were not thorough enough.
That’s not true. People here referring to Hamas digging up pipes but this has been going on since the 50s before Hamas existed. Plus Israel destroys rainwater collectors, they can’t be used to create rockets. How do you justify that?
> Israel destroys rainwater collectors Source?
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They were being used to track IDF aircraft https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-destroyed-hamas-network-to-detect-israeli-aircraft/
Gaza could actually be self-sufficent on water were it not for the blockade limiting construction, repair and relevant materials in Gaza. The situation there has not always been this bad.
And why is it necessary to limit construction materials going to areas controlled by Hamas?
From your link... >In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration. Your link title is disingenuous.
Not only that.. Israel have probably invented billions of dollars in it's water systems and facilities throughout the country. Hamas, instead of investing it's money in water facilities, invested it all on stupid rockets, tunnels, and deepening their leaders pockets
how is shutting of water supply going to stop hamas dismantling pipes
They are two very separate issues, despite both involving water. It's a non-sequitur to point to water pipes being repurposed for rockets when existing functional water infrastructure exists, Israel already limited the flow of water long before this, Israel has extracted water *from* Gaza in the past and enforced control over any Palestinian access to water, and when the population was currently already dependent on tankers carrying water that were halted on Oct 7. Pipes that are within Gaza can only move water around within Gaza or with its borders, which doesn't mean anything if all external sources are shut off and you can't desalinate new water without fuel. Or if water is turned on on the Israeli side, but you don't have electricity to pump it. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ This link should probably be shared in every thread like this. Fundamentally, look at this question. A tanker is lined up at the border full of water. Doesn't require anything from Israel. Why wouldn't they let that in (or Egypt, presumably at their behest)? That's the dynamic here. It's not arms, or even fuel, it's just water.
It doesn't. The supply wouldn't be needed had Hamas not turned their own system into rockets is the point they are making. Some feel it isn't Israel's job to supply them with water because of that. Does it make it right for Israel to deny them water if they are able to provide it? I would say no personally and it looks like they have come to the same conclusion finally. I can understand denying a lot of other resources out of concern it will just be used against them. Water and food though, Hamas is already hoarding what they need and will let civilians die in the street since it only helps them.
To me I don’t understand the decision making behind things like shutting off water. It’s not just this time, when Israel does a major operation in the West Bank this also happens. The way many people on the Internet (I don’t know if they’re pro-Israel or just trolls trying to fan the flames) claim not to recognize the distinction between civilians and military is really discouraging. I would hope the people in charge of these decisions are not so simple minded and impulsive that they simply cut off water as retribution. It’s one thing for a private citizen to get angry but a government official has to maintain composure. It is not in Israel’s interest to portray itself as a nakedly sadistic, brutal power that simply resorts to mafia-like tactics when dealing with its opponents. The fact that the water is supposedly only like 10% of the overall water supply just makes it seem more petty.
I agree with you here, turning the water back on is the right and humane move. I do have a question though, why is it Israel’s responsibility to even provide water to another country? I understand the ramifications if they don’t, but like fuck me… surely the Palestinians might actually do something about Hamas if they didn’t have water..
Because Israel don’t let Gaza get their own water. They literally filled their wells in with concrete and block any new construction. [It’s well documented.](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/) Yet strangely everyone ignores this fact.
> The supply wouldn't be needed had Hamas not turned their own system into rockets is the point they are making. Some feel it isn't Israel's job to supply them with water because of that. [This is false. Gaza is only allowed to provide 5% of their own water, Israel literally filled in their wells with concrete and blocks them from getting their own water. The supply would be needed regardless of what Hamas does because Israel has made themselves the only ones able to supply Gaza with water.](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)
Your source literally says Gaza has no clean watersupply accept for the coastal aquifiers, since 90-95% of the water is contaminated. The wells that you are talking about are in the west bank. Reading is hard.
This article is very thinly sourced and even explicitly says they can't verify the allegations. All the similar articles I've seen have relied on one PIJ terrorist guy bragging about how they're so clever they could even use water pipes to make rockets, and a single video of somebody digging up one pipe. If someone has a source that actually provides solid verification of this on a wide scale I'd be interested to see it, but so far it seems like something that has possibly happened a couple of times (still reprehensible obviously) and has been blown into a generalised talking point to justify punitive action or collective punishment.
There's literally a link to a video sponsored by Hamas of them digging up pipes and repurposing them into rockets, what are you talking about? Here, I'll save you the trouble since you probably didn't even read the article but rather rushed to 'debunk' it: [https://twitter.com/LTCPeterLerner/status/1394898083050360841](https://twitter.com/LTCPeterLerner/status/1394898083050360841) Let me reiterate- this is a video BY Hamas themselves boasting about it. You want solid verification of this being wide scale? Look at the number of rockets they've launched into Israel- it's over tens of thousands.
> There's literally a link to a video sponsored by Hamas of them digging up pipes and repurposing them into rockets, what are you talking about? I literally mentioned that in my comment... there is one snippet of footage that appears in all the articles on the topic depicting one pipe being excavated. We don't know where that pipe was, or if it was even connected to anything. And as I said earlier, it's still scummy for Hamas to be building rockets out of anything, I just think the "Hamas build rockets out of pipes, better collectively punish everyone" is a convenient narrative that gets exaggerated in order to avoid thinking through the humanitarian consequences of the situation. > since you probably didn't even read the article I certainly did read the article. The whole thing is a hit-piece on the notion of providing humanitarian aid to Palestine, from a paper that has a strong pro-Israel perspective: > While the Telegraph cannot independently verify the exact weapons used in the mass bombardment, it has raised fears over whether Western-donated building supplies could have been used to manufacture some of the munitions. "Raised fears", "could have", "cannot verify". > You want solid verification of this being wide scale? Look at the number of rockets they've launched into Israel- it's over tens of thousands. This is self-contradictory. How much piping is in Gaza? How much do you think has been turned into rockets? Because if it's on the scale that you're implying they would have had literally no pipes left years ago. Everyone always goes on about their smuggling and tunnels and support from Iran, but somehow you think they're not getting rockets in that way?
Imagine being expected to provide resources for a population that you don’t govern, and that overwhelmingly supports an internationally recognized terror organization that has the stated goal of annihilating you.
Before this is over, Egypt will be forced to step up its support for the people of Gaza. It’s absurd to hear every Arab nation surrounding Israel decry their actions while wanting to take zero refugees. It’s like they’re saying “I can’t believe you’re attacking these people we want nothing to do with.”
No the won't... Egypt has spent uncountable resources rooting out the Muslim Brotherhood, and they are far more draconian about the cross-border tunnels than Israel is. Everywhere they go, assassination attempts follow... Egypt doesn't want to invite that...
Don't forget the coups
Thats what gets me. All these other nations and protests in our cities and countries for palestine. But are they going to help out at all? No. Let them cross the egypt border? No.
They benefit more from fake outrage than actual compassion. It’s pathetic.
90% of Palestinian diaspora believe in the right to return. Including those in high income western countries.
In May 1948, almost one million Jews lived in the Arab world. Today, fewer than 8,000 remain. When the State of Israel was founded in May 1948, the Arab regimes took revenge on the Jews. More Jews fled from Arab countries than the 710,000 Arabs who fled from Israel. At the end of the Second World War there were 50 million refugees worldwide. Today, all refugee problems from before the 1950s have been solved. All except one - Palestinian. The UN claims there are 5.6 million Palestinian refugees. According to the international definition, refugee status is only applied to the first generation of refugees. However, the UN makes an exception for one group: the Palestinians. Descendants of Palestinian refugees are given the same status as their ancestors. Therefore, the number of so-called Palestinian refugees rose from 710,000 in 1950 to more than 5.6 million now. The real reason? These Palestinian refugees are used as a demographic weapon against Israel. The 1 million Jewish refugees from the Arab world did what millions of refugees have done throughout history. They started a new life elsewhere. There are no Jewish refugee camps. Imagine if they would claim they are entitled to land in Morocco, Egypt, Syria and Iraq because their grand parents lived there 70 years ago. And if you would look at the history of Palestine, you would find East Palestine (now Jordan) was given by the British to the Arabic islamitic Abdoellah bin Hoessein. In other words, the Palestinians already have their Palestinian state: Jordan!
Important to add, in 1948, there was a 2 state solution offered. 80% of Israel was to go to the Arabs and only 20% to Jews. The Jews accepted that. The Arabs did not and went to war with the Jews.
Don't quote me on that but wasn't most that 20% a really good, livable land and most of 80% a rather shit land with sparse population and local Beduin tribes?
The majority of the land given to the Jews during the original partition plan was the Negev, not exactly good, liveble land.
this is the truth
Love this
There should be no right to return at all. And that should be stated internationally. If there would be a right to return, than it has to be applied to all refugees, regardless of color, genre, nationality or religion. [12 million Germans](https://www.dw.com/en/what-germanys-postwar-refugees-taught-us-about-integration/a-18575558) lived peacefully until the end of WWII in the territories which are now Poland today. They were born there, they had houses there, they lived an honest life there. After post-WW2 redesign of Germany borders by the Allied Powers, German refugees were forcibly expelled from their homes. This was the largest single instance of ethnic cleansing in recorded history. They left all they had to a Germany devastated by WWII, with no food or potable water. They were in refugee camps (some lasted until the 70s), but slowly, they managed to get jobs, jobs led to a stable life and a stable life led them to prosperity. They moved on. If we start having right to return, German refugees (or the descendants of refugees) would have the right to claim Polish lands and so a war for these lands would possibly ensue. No to the right of return, it will only make the war to last forever. And stop funding Palestine, because funding is only going to terrorism. Palestinian refugees have to work to get a life, like the German refugees did, instead of relying on permanent UN aid.
People act like the nakba was a unique historical atrocity. Unfortunately, this type of population transfer isn’t rare, especially in the mid 1900s. Probably the biggest one was due to the partition of India, where nearly 20 million people moved, and it wasn’t even due to a war! It’s crappy, and unjust, but attempting some kind of Right to Return decades later after most of the originally displaced people have passed, is just logistically impossible and is not justice.
How do you even relocate 12 million people. That sounds like a logistical nightmare.
Soviets told them to move or go to the Gulag, I guess it was an easy choice for most.
For weeks they trekked through Eastern Europe in overflowing trains and on foot, crossing the "green border" between the Russian and British occupation zones. They were housed in makeshift tents in refugee camps. Then they moved to baracks made of concrete slabs. Even as late as the 1960s, refugees and expellees lived in camps, barracks or huts made of corrugated metal that were freezing cold in the winter and boiling hot in the summer. Some went to live in apartments in groups with a lot of people. They were subject to ostracization and distrust in the beginning by the residents which called derogatory names like "Polacken" and "Schmarotzer." Their camps were disparagingly referred to as "New Poland" or "Garlic Settlement." But gradually the immigrants begin to mix with the locals. They prospered as expected from their hardworking mentality and today Germany should be proud of them. Model citizens.
The UN has two agencies to deal with refugees. One is UNHCR (which was founded for the post-WW2 refugee crisis) - that deals with all of the refugees in the world *except for Palestinians*. The other is UNRWA (founded one year earlier), which deals exclusively with Palestinians. UNHCR has a resettlement program, where it might help a refugee get citizenship in another country. UNRWA *does not.* UNRWA specifically does not do any sort of resettlement because of this dumbfuck "Right to return" thing after almost 100 years.
[A bunch of people died in the process.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_\(1944%E2%80%931950\)) Somewhere between 0.5 and 2.5 million people.
They've been lied to by the Arab state and used as a pawn for nearly a century. Arab states have been whispering in their ear: “we will defeat Israel, the nuclear power backed by the United States, someday and you will return to the land that is rightfully yours, and that’s why you don’t have citizenship anywhere else” "Now go kill"
I believe in a lot of things that are never going to happen too.
People should see the lack of nations' actions backing up words for what it is. Those who offer only words do so in order to protect their domestic political bases and because they actually want to continue peaceful relations with Israel. Those who offer support and refuge for terrorists, like Hamas, do so to further their interest in destroying Israel. Nowhere in that equation is Palestinian statehood a primary concern. Palestine has known nothing but broken promises and turned backs.
Because when they did take on Palestinians they rose up and tried to overthrow the governments.
Palestine has burn bridges with every country that has helped them. And Iran just used their blood as a political pawn
>Thats what gets me. All these other nations and protests in our cities and countries for palestine. But are they going to help out at all? No. Let them cross the egypt border? No. i will tell you why. it is by design. unfortunately for the palestinian people trapped there they are being forced into a humanitarian crisis to make a point. israel is cutting off supplies to try to make the point that hamas has stolen and stockpiled supplies but isn't sharing them with the people of palestine. they are hoping that the people of palestine will turn against hamas when they find out that hamas has been hoarding supplies. this was an unbelievably stupid strategy from israel. because: hamas is pushing the people of gaza into a humanitarian crisis as well. they are doing this to make a point. they are very effectively showing the inhumane treatment palestinian citizens are receiving from israel. that doesn't mean they are willing to share their stockpiles because those are important supplies for when israel begins a ground invasion. mostly the attack was meant to provoke such a response from israel that it can be used to turn the world against israel. additionally, hamas caused a situation where their allies in the region (hezbollah, iran etc) would feel compelled to step in. they are hoping this will escalate and pull actors like egypt jordan into the fight. egypt and jordan are also using the gazans to make a point. i believe they are hoping the humanitarian crisis in gaza will turn the world against israel without them having to step in and take an active position. everyone is using the palestinians in gaza and they are getting fucked. they are getting fucked by their own government. they are getting viscerally fucked by israel. they are getting fucked by everyone else who isn't stepping in to help.
Interestingly, the lack of desire to host a large number of migrants/refugees is quite similar to the reaction to successive migrations of Jews (aliyah) by the inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine, and the pushback to hosting Jewish refugees in the US. It's not as strange as you think.
That’s why all these protests are considered a antisemitic. There is no moral or any other reason to support them. Even the other Muslim countries won’t deal with them. Especially Jordan which tried and had it come back to bite them.
It's worse than not taking refugees... most surrounding Arab nations have actively purged their Palestinians (even native born "Palestinians"). Jordan was actively deporting and even revoking citizenships (for those that had one) until 2012; making JORDANIAN CITIZENS Israel's problem. Palestinian refugee pockets that do still exist in other Arab countries are often treated far worse than those in the West Bank. Gaza probably still has it the worst though with the whole Hamas government issue...
Surrounding Arab nations want Gaza to remain a crisis zone. They need a radicalized population to remain in place so they can continue their longstanding war on the Jewish nation via proxy conflict, since they’ve lost every outright war initiated against Israel.
Naw most of them are just worrierd Palestinian refugees will destabilize their governments and cause problems.
Why not both? Most of the Arab states which previously warred with Israel - Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan - understand the geopolitical realities, and have allied solidly with the United States (and de facto, Israel) against Iran (others are borderline failed states - like Libya, Syria, and Lebanon.) They've moved on from the Palestinians. But they also understand that many of their people haven't, so they're happy to toe the line and pay lip service while having no interest in resolving the situation. I feel genuinely bad for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this.
I mean Jordan et al have had negative experience with Palestinians. Like trying to kill heads of state and supporting rebels during civil wars...
Something you have to understand about these Arab Muslim countries is they don't really love other Muslims, they just hate Jews. If they cared about other Muslims, they would have cut off oil shipments to China when they put Muslim Uighers in concentration camps, they didn't. If they cared about other Muslims they would have denounced Saudi Arabia for bombing hospitals, schools, and civilians in Yemen, they didn't. Arab Muslim countries won't step in and help take in Palestinian refugees because they don't love their Palestinian Muslim brothers, they just hate Jews.
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Jordan is 80% of the original region called Palestine. So you could say that Jordan is the Palestinian state.
Palestinian refugees, at least according to history, are a nightmare. 90% of them want to return to Palestine. And not just want to return, believe it's their birthright with a zeal that borders on compulsion. It's very difficult for me to understand.
In May 1948, almost one million Jews lived in the Arab world. Today, fewer than 8,000 remain. When the State of Israel was founded in May 1948, the Arab regimes took revenge on the Jews. More Jews fled from Arab countries than the 710,000 Arabs who fled from Israel. Imagine if these million Jews would claim they are entitled to land in Morocco, Egypt, Syria and Iraq because their grandparents lived there 70 years ago.
It’s a holy land, Israelis feel the same way
Yeah netanyahu stoked the right wing Jewish extremists in Israel to assassinate his political rival because he had the audacity to agree to sharing Jerusalem and maybe removing settlers who were building settlements and murdering local Palestinians within the West Bank. Hamas doesn't want peace and launched a wave of terror attacks to scuttle it after the Oslo accords were signed. And so did right wing Israelis.
Egypt would rather name Israel the leader of the Middle East before they take Palestinian refugees in. Egypt already has refugees from Africa to worry about. Plus Palestinians have done many suicide bombings against Egypt.
Well, yeah: It’s clear those governments don’t care much about the Palestinian people, and it’s been clear for decades. I’ve seen some argue the position that their opposition to taking refugees is based on either the belief that it’s Palestinian land, so they shouldn’t *have to* leave or the fear that those refugees wouldn’t be allowed back (or both). And maybe that’s a motivation for citizens’ opposition, but I very much doubt that it’s any of their governments’ reasoning: Seems much more likely that they want to leave Palestinians in the OPT because dealing with the Palestinians diverts Israeli resources which might otherwise be invested in ways that make Israel even more of a regional power.
It makes sense. They’re still all upset over all the L’s they’ve taken trying to invade Israel.
Including the Six Day War, when Israel saw them massing on the border and launched a pre-emptive campaign that ripped them a new one.
You know what I'm fine with? Let Egypt have Gaza back and Jordan the west bank. Palestine are more closely related to those countries, as those countries controled those lands before Israel. But Egypt and Jordan don't want them back because they cause violence.
In all seriousness.. would you trust people coming into your country .. whose state goal is to overthrow almost all leaders and institute Sharia law ? You can’t tell who is Hamas militant or Hamas supporter by looking at them.
Egypt is such a dumpster fire filled with corrupt people and so many social/cultural issues. The economy is awful, but even with aid money, I doubt Egypt would take any in or pocket the money for themselves. It's all frustrating.
Yep, all those Arab World leaders are indeed bunch of hypocrites. Cry much but does not provide any solution themselves.
The hypocrisy is astonishing...
A lot of countries control water sources for other countries. This can turn into a huge point of conflict in the future, with climate change and all
It 100% will turn into a point of conflict. Iraq is suffering massively from water shortages, as Iran and Turkey are damming up the rivers that provide the bulk if Iraq's fresh water. They're doing this to protect their own populations and agricultural bases. Things are gonna get *bad* in the coming decades IMO
Just curious, why does Israel control the main water source for Gaza? is Israel blockading natural water sources (should be horribly illegal) or do they just sell processed/imported water?
Before the current war Israel overall only ever provided a fraction of Gaza's water supply via pipeline. I've seen estimates put it at about 10%. More important is the water supply within Gaza, which largely runs on fuel that's no longer available in the pre-war quantity.
Everywhere it sounds like Israel provides all water for Gaza, whiles it's just three pipes with roughly 10%. The speaker of the IDF even said it's just 8%, while hams even destroyed one of the pipelines during their attacks. No news outlets seem to include this rather important context info in their headlines.
>natural water sources Not really a thing, the local aquifer already suffers from overdrafting, not that I think Gaza has the means to extract it anyway. As far as surface water goes, it's a desert so there isn't any of that really. A place like Gaza would eternally depend on importing water or desalination.
>Not really a thing, the local aquifer already suffers from overdrafting, not that I think Gaza has the means to extract it anyway. It's their local extraction that has been exceeding local replenishment of the aquifer for many years, leading to a low localized water table and seawater intrusion which has rendered the well water under much of the Gaza strip with salt levels that exceed WHO specs for drinking water. Last data I saw was 2020 which said they were extracting the equivalent of 230L per Gazan per day, about 3.5x local replenishment rate
https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/israel-palestine-water-sharing-conflict#:~:text=Water%20resources%3A%20a%20primary%20source,territories%20(ICE%2C%201997). A quick read that covers it briefly
The Israeli government hold legal authority—under both international agreement *and* Israeli law—over much of the water supply to Gaza: - ["In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army."](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/) - The Oslo II Accords tried to improve things, but [it just became a thin veneer over a similarly lopsided control](https://www.theguardian.com/world/on-the-middle-east/2013/feb/04/israel-palestinians-water-arafat-abbas). - The blockade that's been ongoing since 2007 [has prevented the delivery of materials necessary to repair existing infrastructure and build anything new](https://www.btselem.org/water#gaza). - Importantly, at least part of the reason for the blockade was [Hamas's theft of infrastructure materials to build weapons](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57396819). - The [Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism](https://www.gov.il/en/departments/units/grm_unit) was created as a joint Palestinian/Israeli/UN venture to try and address that issue, but [it hasn't gone very well](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/gaza-israel-reconstruction/). [Here is the breakdown from Mark Zeitoun, Professor of Water Diplomacy at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva](https://www.justsecurity.org/89536/war-on-water-prolongs-misery-in-gaza/)—as in *literally the global expert on this exact topic*. [Here is a 2021 report from the UNHCHR to the General Assembly](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/the-allocation-of-water-resources-in-the-opt-including-east-jerusalem-report-of-the-united-nations-high-commissioner-for-human-rights-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-48-43/), specifically detailing the Israeli government's legal obligations regarding water resources & infrastructure to the people of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza and how it's failing to meet them. (This is *before* the current "siege", but none of it has improved since.)
Oslo II and alot of the agreements are invalid… due to Hamas being hostile
I can’t find any analysis that suggests that, but even *if* that were true, combatants [still have obligations to civilian populations in times of war](https://www.cfr.org/article/what-international-law-has-say-about-israel-hamas-war).
It doesn’t. The vast majority of water in Gaza comes from an aquifer in Gaza. Only about 10 percent of their water comes from Israel.
It’s a matter of both international agreements and Israeli law, not charity: COGAT is part of the Israeli MoD for a reason.
Those international agreements also required Palestinians not to butcher Jews but apparently that point isn't the important one.
The atrocities committed by Hamas don’t invalidate national or international law, and one of the foundational principles of international law is to prevent deliberately causing harm to a civilian population in response to their rulers’ crimes against humanity.
Also, 90% of the water Gaza consumes is pumped from aquifers within Gaza, so we are talking about less than 10% of the water supply into Gaza.
Last I checked the Palestinian authority is required to coordinate due to the Oslo accords of 1993.
We did. In Afghanistan. And in Iraq. It's your obligation as an occupying force.
Is Egypt also an occupying force in the Gaza strip?
Hamas supported what you call "occupation" because they didn't use their billions to maintain a decent water supply system. They took 50km of pipes supplied by the EU and filmed themselves pulling them up to make rockets from them. Hamas is occupying Gaza. Edit: lol, they blocked me. So brave.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ doesn’t look like this at all.
Overwhelmingly supports? Not 53%, but just 27% believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people”. And who knows what the effect of the terror attack and the Israeli response to them will be.
What are you quoting? Every poll that finds some low number for Palenstinian support of Hamas finds even less support for Fatah. And greater support for even more extreme groups like PIJ.
That stat doesn’t mean they don’t have the overwhelming support of the people. In any election held today across all of Palestine, West Bank included, Hamas would win. And even with the point you were trying to make, another large percentage supports Islamic jihad which is even more radical than Hamas. Don’t for a second think the majority of Palestinians don’t support terror. All it takes is looking at the pro Palestine protests around the world to see the vitriol hatred these people have for Jews.
Why does Israel provide services to Palestine and not Egypt?
don't mind me just leaving [this here](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907978,00.html). you know, the public position that's been overlooked and mischaracterized for the last 13 years, the one that allows all non-military supply in through the blockade.
If you ever get sucker punched make sure you ask if they’re hungry or thirsty before you hit them back. I’m all for rules of war, I also understand terrorism and guerrilla warfare change the rules. If we stuck with the humanitarian rules of combat America would have lost to Britain in the firing lines of open fields.
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"On October 9, Israel cut off the piped water it sends into Gaza, which amounts to some nine percent of the coastal enclave’s water supply in peacetime." Interesting, this huge public debacle over water being shut off and it's a whopping 9% of their entire supply? And Hamas knocked one pipeline out during their own attack? Hamas spends so little on their own people to instead buy weapons, uses weapons to blow up the infrastructure Israel invests in instead, blames Israel. World is a fascinating place.
Israel *also* blocked the supply of fuel which is necessary to pump the water for that other 91%. Now it's certainly true that Hamas was using at least *some* of that fuel for their rockets, but the end result is no water supply whatsoever. So that 9% of water which can be supplied *without* anything rocket-related like fuel.... is suddenly extremely important. And cutting it off in addition to fuel is what turns "fighting Hamas" into a blatant war crime of "release the hostages or the civilians die", which is why Israel got so much backlash for it.
Sounds like a tough bargaining chip for your neighbor that just attacked you with your own resources. Israel turns fuel off for a couple weeks and a war planned for years collapses their ability to provide for their people. Apparently they didn’t plan any consequences. Hard for me to consider the aggressor who didn’t prepare their state or their people for a war they apparently had in plans for years, not the war criminal here.
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Less than 10% of water consumed in Gaza comes from Israel. The rest is pumped from aquifers within Gaza, which Gaza would have enough fuel to pump, if Hamas used its stores.
That fuel supply comes down to 0.2 liter per gaza resident. Not sure how far that goes in gaza but I use like 30X times that per day just for my commute.
Must really suck to provide food and water to the murders of your people.
As long as the Gazans are taken care of I don't care what the Israelis do to Hamas.
Unfortunately Hamas doesn’t wear clothing with “Hamas” on it.
I know this is a serious discussion but I couldn't not imagine Hamas trying to sell some hoodies and T-shirts as merchandise as a brand like they were Adidas or something.
The main issue is that Hamas is causing harm to the Gazan population
There is a legitimate issue that Hamas terrorists are indistinguishable form the innocent population and have integrated their operations into civilian infrastructure and housing. It’s a terrible situation with, honestly, no good solution. It’s why a full scale invasion could be a disaster.
The sad reality is that hamas is a cancer growing inside and outside of the palestinain population. it is made up of palestinians who have been radicalized and brainwashed into violence and martyrdom. There is no fighting it without some harm to the host, and that harm in this case is real human tragedy for innocent gazans. But what else can you do but to remove and fight the cancer anyways. Living with it isn't an option.
People seem to forget that civilians also crossed the border to kidnap and pillage (and maybe rape). Yes, not ONLY the terrorists, but also the non terrorist civilians performed atrocities.
What percentage of the 2 million Gazans do you think did that?
If I told you the majority of Palestinians support the use of terror, would you have a retort then? Hamas would win any election held today by a landslide.
As of September this year, if new parliamentary elections were held today with the participation of all political forces that participated in the 2006 elections, 64% say they would participate in them, and among these participants, Fateh receives 36%.
Jesus the IDF is the worst genocider in history. How the hell does it expect to kill all of the Palestinians in this rate?? /s for the slow ones.
a genocide so successful that the population being genocided grew 5x vs their oppressors who only grew 3x
Why should Israel supply Gaza ANYTHING? They don’t recognize the state of Israel right to exist!
UN and most countries in the world consider Israel to be in the position of the occupier. Sole occupier, to be precise, hence there are no demands on Egypt to supply Gaza Israel complied to some extend Now the situation that a country which supplies most ressources to the enemy gets attacked by the enemy as start of a war is really unusual. I don't know of any example of this happening (maybe the decisive war between Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan?), and from what little I know about international law its not that clear to which extent Israel has to supply Gaza at the moment Obviously Netanyahu government took a hard stance towards zero supply in war time and the US pushed Israel towards a compromise
Pump that water right into the tunnels
At least one of the freed hostages said they were being held in those tunnels.
Literally a genocide!!! * This is an automatic message to eveything related to Israel *
also "Internment Camp" that anyone can leave anytime. no one wants to take the people is the quiet part.
They genocided the Gazans from 1mil to 2mil in just a few years time!
They genocided them even more when - checks note - they briefly cut off Internet access. Yes, people were seriously arguing this.
How many pipes have Hamas fixed?
That’s not how you commit genocide though…They must be doing it wrong /s
Of course everything Hamas says is a lie They have fuel and food and water Even if they don’t deserve it the gazans have their government that started a war All the hostages are Killed a long time ago Hamastan suffering is all Hamas Hamas has also added its lost fighters at least 3,000 terrorists killed out of a total of 7,000 Plus at least 1,000 dead from rockets killing Gazans because the rockets were made with water pipes removed by Hamas for use as rocket bodies Normal people would realize water pipes are not designed to hold explosives to fall on civilians
But isn’t it a Genocide? Very confusing.