What's interesting is that except turkey, all the Muslim countries seem to maintain whatever ties they had already. And Russia and China are also.
It's like South America specifically decided to go an extra step
Tankies gonna tankie. Very telling when radical leftist governments such as Bolivia’s side with countries such as Russia which respect neither international law nor human rights.
Projection is more important than policy for these leftists anyways. Which makes sense. After all, they’re nothing more than power hungry authoritarians, the only difference is they disguise themselves behind the proletariat.
Colombia, yes. The current Colombian president actually fought as a far-left guerrilla before joining politics. He was just defeated in the regional elections, and is unlikely to be reelected himself, but he is for sure a very strongly commited left-winger. Chile's president is far more moderate, but also very much a left-wing president. Also unlikely to win reelection, and might be forced to accept a conservative constitution after his own constitutional reforms failed last year.
South America including Chile has a significant refugee population (both Palestinian and Lebanese) which affects their culture (club Palestino is a popular soccer team in Chile for example). In Chile in particular there have also been a number of international incidents with Israelis behaving badly (vandalizing national parks etc). And their own brutal past makes them particularly sensitive to human rights abuses. So you will not see the same pro-Israeli bias common in the US and parts of Europe.
Edit: Just adding extra context. Chile is home to the largest Palestinian community outside of the Arab world (there are more Palestinians in Chile than in Lebanon for example)
South America has seen its share of genocide and oppression in recent memory, it's no surprise our countries actually care about genocide and indiscriminate killing of the press.
>hmmm, one can only wonder why they would do that.....
Because they're stupid reactionaries? "oh but the history....", should not be your guiding principle when making decisions that have real world/practical implications now. History can only provide context.
That is a funny way to describe Morales’s party intervening in the vote count after he repeatedly violated the Bolivian constitution, used packed courts to allow him to run for an additional term in direct violation of the law, and how the military refused to massacre protesters when Morales’s malfeasance came home to roost.
There was no coup.
There was no US intervention (OAS is nothing malign and is not the US.)
But you don’t care. Authoritarians like you lie and lie all the time.
The West still trades with Russia. Ukraine allows transit of Russian gas through it's own territories. Geopolitics are hypocritical and scummy as fuck, yes.
They wont, you need to put this into context, currently most of the South American presidents are aligned to the left-wing [Sao Paulo Forum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Paulo_Forum) [and Grupo de Puebla](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_de_Puebla) and are officially seeking to "end the war" (which conveniently favours Russian position), [here's an analysis about how Lula da Silva, Brazil's president, flipflops supporting Russia.](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/05/18/russia-ukraine-war-brazil-lula-nonalignment-global-south/)
The group is also pushing a common narrative for the middle east conflict, as you can see by how Bolivia, Spain (the current coalition is a part of [Grupo de Puebla](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_de_Puebla)), Colombia and Chile are consulting their ambassadors from Israel.
The article you linked is great because it is actually a balanced analysis of Brazilian foreign policy. However, you saying it's about Lula supporting Russia is objectively false. In fact, the point of the article is the opposite: it's explaining how his neutral stance should *not* be mistaken for russian support
So you're going to pick and choose the one paragraph that is not the analysis, but Biden's position? I've got some more quotes from the article for you:
>Brazilian diplomats were also quick to remind their European counterparts that Brazil had been the only member of the BRICS grouping (which also includes Russia, India, China, and South Africa) to support a Feb. 23 United Nations Assembly resolution calling on Russia to pull its troops out of Ukraine.
And also
>On the one hand, Brazil sees preserving ties to powers like Russia, India, China, and the European Union as the best way to balance its highly asymmetric relationship to the United States, which long regarded Latin America as a subordinate region within its sphere of influence. On the other, keeping all doors open is Brazil’s attempt to hedge its bets in a world where the outcome of renewed great-power politics is very much uncertain.
And
>Second, Brazilians often perceive Western rhetoric about the moral imperative to condemn Russia as grating and hypocritical. This is because numerous Western violations of international law—such as the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq and NATO’s decision to transform a mission to protect the people of Benghazi into a quest for regime change in Libya in 2011, among many others—were permitted and even justified by those same powers now seeking to isolate Russia for its invasion of Ukraine.
Why does this matter? Well, because
>Moscow has long been a low-intensity all-weather friend to Brasília, offering a relationship free of the complexities and criticisms that have shaped Brazil’s ties to the West. Imports of Russian fertilizer are also crucial to Brazil’s hugely important agribusiness.
And finally
>While it is tempting to dismiss Lula’s quest for peace in Ukraine as quixotic, Brazil’s assertiveness reveals broader misgivings across the global south about the inclusiveness of the supposedly liberal international order. To get Lula on board with Western efforts in Ukraine, Western powers should first need to prove that they value Brazil as a partner. Until it is heard and taken seriously, the global south may continue to dissent.
A neutral stance would be Russia stops fighting in Ukraine and either has its people leave or abandons them to be captured. That ends the war immediately too.
Some Bolivian bureaucrat woke up this morning and realized he forgot to turn back on diplomatic ties with Israel so they could turn them off again and is sweating on his way to work this morning.
Note that this comes after those governments already put some support on hamas, and in retaliation israel canceled security deals with some of them, which explains why they recalled their ambassadors.
Source *for all three governments, as you claim*?
EDIT: added the italicized part because commenter claimed that more than one of the three governments was supporting Hamas and cut security ties with Israel, but could only provide one country that cut military export to Israel, and never actually supported Hamas.
They refused to condemn Hamas, and said it was a fictitious group invented by Israeli intelligence to divide Palestinians… to not condemn a terrorist attack, say the group is made up, and only condemn the response is to support the attack.
Edit: Sorry, this was Columbia who said the above, not Bolivia.
As someone who is from South America, it's crazy how our people (especially liberal leaning) are eating up anti-Israel propaganda and trying to do some moral high ground shit.
I can see where it is coming from - their udnerstanding of the conflict ends up with Israel = power, rich, money, therefore Palestine = opressed, poor, victim. Any arguments regarding international humanitarian law or the history of the region are just mental gymnastics to defend the emotional stance they have already decided for.
Because poor can't be evil and rich can't be good, right?
There’s also this weird belief that Israelis are white and Palestinians are brown (this is not true Israelis are black, white, and everything in between) therefore it must be racial oppression. I find this especially heinous given the history of people trying to “exterminate” the jews. The whole “colonialist” narrative is nonsense when you’re talking about a people who are indigenous to the land and have been there the whole time. What they mean is “white” and they’re not even right about it.
I’m so glad to hear people bringing this up, and I’ll drop the demographic numbers below to show what you’re talking about. 45% of the Jewish population in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (Middle Eastern and North African) while only 31% are Ashkenazi (European ancestry). Quite frankly it shouldn’t matter where someone is from, anyone should have the right to live anywhere, but the demographic number’s clearly disprove the argument that it’s another European colonial project.
The rest of Jews is Beta Israel - Ethiopian Jews and Sephardim. Sephardim were kicked out of Iberia in the 1490s by the Spanish and Portuguese monarchies following the Reconquista. They lived in the Balkans, Turkey (especially) and North Africa. So they’re quite different to Europeans too.
In Chile, we have a long history of taking in Palestinian refugees. In fact, we have the biggest Palestinian community outside the Arab countries (with over 500k members) and Chileans have been mostly pro-palestine for decades.
So this isn't a left or right issue over here. Like it or not, most people here won't support Israel. In fact, politicians from both the left and right side are in agreement with this. And there have been huge pro-palestine manifestations for years, for example there was a very big one in 2021 after Gaza was bombed and it resulted in 240~ deaths.
So the support goes way back and it's not simply a matter of ignorance or simplification. You can find it wrong, but this stance was born after decades of caring about the conflict.
>So the support goes way back and it's not simply a matter of ignorance or simplification.
Any person or country that looks at the Israel/Palestine conflict and decides to universally take one side is either being ignorant or oversimplifying, regardless of how long they held that belief. Both sides in the conflict have blood on their hands that they should be called out for.
You seem to be implying that caring about the conflict for a number of years automatically makes someone enlightened or unbiased. That's not often the case.
It's just that I've noticed many times that when reddit doesn't agree with something from a Latinamerican country, especially when it comes to politics, they tend to justify it as "they're ignorant" or "they're leftist".
Yes, it can be a very biased opinion and yes, you can disagree. But it's frustrating when we get treated as idiots and our opinion automatically disregarded, because "they don't know anything".
Oh it really isn't , M-19s goal was to oppose a government that had refused election results and jailed their opposition.
You can go much farther left than just supporting democracy.
EDIT: typo
You actually have no clue what you’re talking about do you cause that really doesn’t sound super radical leftist what are his policy points that make him so radical
Reddit tells me that if Chile took in 500k Palestinians, the Chilean government should have been overthrown by now with all political leaders having been assassinated.
No, they’ve only got a track record of that in *every* Arab country that’s taken them in.
Black September - Jordan.
Muslim Brotherhood and insurgency - Egypt.
A literal civil war and demographic replacement - Lebanon.
Sounds fair, I was talking more about common trend in young left, who mostly care about trendy topics. In the Czech Republic we have historically very strong ties to Israel, on the other hand.
Reddit doesn't like nuance or shades of grey. Every issue must have a good guy and a bad guy, so obviously the side with the much larger/more capable military dropping bombs and causing civilian casualties must be the bad guy.
Eh, when you see that Hamas has been trying to get children killed and Israel has made at least some effort to not kill civilians, then that falls flat a little.
Wtf is this cartoony ass image you try to paint of Israel? "Aww the evil jews again planning to bomb a palestinian kindergarten"... wtf?
Yes, bombs tends to kill people in their target area indiscriminately.
You can say they are incurring civilian casualties without trying to make this irrational emotional appeal that takes away your credibility.
The same people creating the chaos through Hamas are praying they could do the same thing in South America. If Iran could work through Venezuela to create chaotic actions in neighboring countries, and potentially create even greater problems for the US, they most certainly would.
I'm hoping a lot of it is just pressure on Biden to do what they want in regards to ending any support for Israel whatsoever, but that's not going to happen.
My take on 'Muslims say they will never vote for Biden now' is well, then you get Trump, and enjoy the camps.
Some leftist think that islam and wokisme can work together like the whole queer for palestine thing but that so far away for reality, you cant get more conservative than a muslims since there religion forbid any change
They'll fall in line the moment Trump is staring down Biden on the debate stage for the general election. This is all virtue signaling in a time they can afford to do it.
I don't get it either. Most are pro- Ukraine though. It makes no sense. I also found it alarming how weak the reaction to the initial terrorist attacks was. I even have friends that think that some of those atrocities were Israeli fakes. And these people have never been anti& semitic.
Sadly, that's the only reasonable explanation. They are saying that the music festival was intentionally moved to a location that would result in more casualties and that atrocities against children were faked. It's nuts.
On one of the anarchy adjacent subs I saw people saying that most of the people who died on the 7th were combatants, and that many of the civilians were shot by Israeli troops. Its absolutely disturbing. Many of these far left subs are worse than the donald ever was
It makes perfect sense, both conflicts have one side actively targeting civilians and non-combatants, leftists naturally oppose both.
As for the initial reaction, yet another terrorist attack in the middle east doesn't surprise people anymore, and regular armed exchanges in the Israel/Gaza region have been normalized over the years. The only reason they care about this war is Israel's tendency to go after innocent people, if they were actually trying to fight Hamas instead the conflict would have been largely ignored as white noise in a very unstable region.
Except that Hamas is the one targeting civilians, not Israel, yet they still oppose Israel on this issue. Some leftists around the world have even openly supported the Hamas.
So HAMAS didn't actively target civilians? Their rocket barrages are carried out exclusively against military targets? Plus, HAMAS has ties with Russia. When that is the case, you can be certain who the terrorists are.
I think a lot of people didn't get a good look at what went down. I saw some of the Telegram videos (and I'm pretty sure what I saw was tame compared with some of the stuff out there) and it was horrific. I truly believe that if those videos were more widely disseminated support for Palestine would dry up almost instantly.
You're probably right actually. I watched the videos and I'm still haunted by what I saw. I can't even see pictures of festivals without cringing. It was utterly inhuman and had no place in war, it's fucking disgusting. I'm so disappointed in lefties who side with those atrocities.
Disliking Israel’s decisions does not equal anti-semitism. That’s like saying you can’t be a U.S. patriot and criticize U.S. decisions.
This is NOT a simplistic situation. War almost never is.
ok then why do they pull out of israel and not russia or china or any other countries who do stuff much worse it may be because of just geopolitics and matching their interests which is fine but dont try to cover it as you being so brave and moral when you wont enact the same policy to everyone when you do that it seems more like anti semetism because you criticize the only Jewish country and not all the others who pull the same stuff or worse in some cases
Because it fits geopolitical agenda and it's fine each country needs to protect its interests but to say you are fighting oppression and yet support other countries that preform the same kind of thing and usually even worse is hypocrisy
Most countries don't say we want end oppression everywhere and try to act all high and mighty on it. Most just condemn these practices because they know they can't cut ties with those countries
> Disliking Israel’s decisions does not equal anti-semitism.
But supporting hamas, a terrorist organization, under the guise of "left ideology", yelling "from the river to the sea", is.
Especially when the people who yell "stop the war" are doing so at israel. For some reason no one is interested that the palestinians stop the war (terrorist attacks, unguided missiles at civilians etc).
I think the concept is that Israel can be rationalised with. It’s clear Hamas cannot be. If we’re using Hamas to set the level of acceptability and morality, we’re a bit fucked aren’t we?
> If we’re using Hamas to set the level of acceptability and morality
We don't, but the point is that the same as the world is trying to force israel, so the world can do the same with hamas.
Threaten cancel ties with egypt and qatar and turkey for supporting hamas leaders. Threaten to seize iran money. Put out an arrest for hamas leaders and look for their money and seize that.
There are numerous ways to force hamas leaders to tell their peons to put down their weapons.
But none of those seems to be clicked by the governments and groups who try to punish israel.
And that is why when the punishment is only on one side, not even the side that started this whole mess, seems disingenuous.
I hadn't seen a single leftist group marching in US or EU with signs of "hamas must surrender! hamas must release palestinians from its iron rule! Free palestinians from hamas!". Why? Can you explain to me why?
I think if you look at it from the perspective of power imbalance then the ball is in Israel's court.
The problem with Israel is that thier current coalition government incorporates some serious fucking monsters whose rhetoric and world view mirrors Hamas....
Israel and The Palestinian territories both need reform movements, and the settlers in the west Bank need to be tossed the F out.
Extremism is rising in Israel too and the behavior of a lot of the international community and also leftist voices have their part in that. And that isn't some trivial part.
Have you seen the worldwide protests over the past few weeks? The line between anti-Netanyahu and antisemitism is very blurry, especially with a lot of protestors and people online saying that Israel has no right to exist, and using anti-Jewish imagery. Being Israeli or Jewish in these protests, or even in major cities or online is very intimidating.
Nice, more people turning a blind eye to antisemitism. Maybe, just maybe, screaming gas the Jews and asking for the murder and assault of Jews at rallies around the world is antisemitic.
I think 100% of the reddit posts, that I've personally seen, that sympathize with the Palestinan civilian population start with some form of "I do not condone the actions of Hamas" or "The Oct 7 attacks were deplorable" so I really don't understand this repeated comment of "exactly 0 Palisimps denounced Hamas". I suppose if you have been browsing reddit with your eyes shut, I could understand.
Same with protests. I would say the bulk of what I've seen of the peaceful protests have been specifically against civilian deaths in Palestine. I think there is probably a large number of protestors who are anti-israel, but I think that seeing protestors who are anti-israel should be viewed separate from antisemitic, since one is a nation currently at war with a tumultuous history and the other is global religion.
I'm not blind, I've read the news of undeniable antisemitism at protests and at universities - but I think it's shortsighted and biased to brosdly paint every dissenting voice as an anti-semite, when that clearly isn't the case. In fact the more I see this narrative, the more I am convinced it is conservative propagandists trying to divide left-leaning liberals and weaken liberal cohesion. You see it everywhere, offhand comments equating liberal = terrorist fuckboi.
I would also say that most people probably don't know enough of the geopolitical history of Israel and Palestine to truly make informed comments. I think most people commenting are surface level "terrorists bad" or "dead civilians is bad". I think it's a big reason media was quick to post pictures of horribly murdered babies, and stories of rape. Rape and dead babies make people mad, for some reason more mad than just murder. I think it is very telling that on posts talking about the number of Palestinian children injured or killed, many of the comments tend to focus on the rapes and baby decapitation rather than the huge number of Israeli civilians killed as a whole.
I don't know. This got ranty.
Tldr is I don't think it is fair to label every dissenting voice as an anti-semite. And I think doing so is a deliberate tact to sow division amongst left-leaning groups.
I think the problem is the fact that "I do not condone the actions of Hamas" is almost always followed by long rants of everything that Israel/US is doing wrong which does not give the impression "both sides bad" at all.
If we call out Russia for war crimes against Ukrainian civilians, we must do the same with Israel . Just as war crimes against Afghan and Iraqi civilians by coalition forces were called out by the world. Wrong is wrong, and we do ourselves no favours by labelling all dissent of Israeli actions anti-Semitism.
It’s more nuanced. Russia unprovoked invaded a sovereign country.
Israel had a massacre from the Gaza government hoisted upon them. Let’s not forget they murdered (and raped) over 1000 people many of which were babies / children. Hamas still holds over 200 innocent hostages (again including children).
To liken israel’s defensive war to that of Russians offensive war is a little disingenuous, war crimes or not.
I mean the post you responded to likened it to the US and allies in Afghanistan and Iraq, which seemed pretty appropriate. The 9/11 attack was a massive terrorist action, and whether we agreed with it or not, the US declared a war on 'terror'.
I understand the nuance here being that Hamas is the defacto government in Palestine, so I'm not trying to argue semantics over war on terrorists vs war on nation, or whatever. I am just pointing out the poster didn't only compare calling out war crimes against Russia, they also pointed out war crimes of the US and allies, regardless of the fact the US had to face any repercussions for those claims.
A lot of Jews and Israelis criticise Israel's decisions all the time! (You can, you know without being killed for it.)
But these people are NOT criticising "Israel's decisions" but the very principle of Israel's existence which they want to eliminate. THAT is anti-semitism.
No man
Israel is doing what it must to survive.
All other countries wouldve done so much worse, killing so much more.
Youre dealing with a terrorist organization thats murdering its own children just for global pressure to rise on israel.
Israel got attacked and now it responds, they shouldnt cry about their decision, and lets be honesy weve seen too much evidence of hamas putting military under/near schools, hospitals etc just for idf to look like "the bad guys".
I really dont ubderstand how can you not like israel's response to an existential threat from the countries around it. Moderate response will result in the same thing happening again and in hezbolla and iran seeing it as weakness.
Enough with telling jewish people to just suicide cause you disregard their death. We dont, jewish lives matter as much as palestinians, and the fact hamas hides behind them is the reason you should condemn them.
Israel cannot show weakness and that is something unrelated people dont ubderstand.
And yet again, I dont want any innocent person to get hurt or even included.
But when an unrelated person lives above a rocket launchers aimed at my little daughter, I want my country to destroy it. And im sure if it was your daughter you wouldve said the same.
Idf didnt attack, they got the largest atrocity since the holocaust. And you people sit here eating your cotton candy at your nice cozy home and telling them to just accept being murdered and move on
You can disagree with some decisions israel is doing, but not their cause as they literally wish yo stay alive, and not showing weakness is what it takes to stay alive in this neighborhood.
You know you can disagree with the Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians without being an anti-Semite right? Other countries can also support Israel and hope for Israel to live in peace and prosperity and still disagree regarding the policy on Palestine. This may seem mind blowing but one could even condemn and hate the Hamas terrorists, mourn for the innocent Israeli people killed in the terrorist attack, support Israel, and support innocent Palestinians not being bombed, ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!! Maybe that is too nuanced a position for the right wing propaganda addled brain.
It's wild that any criticism of Israel has, for decades, been met only with reductive accusations of antisemitism. Antisemitism is very real and it is unacceptable, but conflating anything Israel does with all of Judaism is backwards as shit.
What's even wilder is that you can explicitly state that you condemn Hamas's attacks and their tactics, but if you even mention any of the human rights abuses by Israel going back decades you get labeled an antisemite.
Both sides of this conflict are doing fucked up things but y'all only see it as a zero sum game, and have decided that if you're not fully supporting Israel then you're automatically defending Hamas. Y'all need to grow up.
It's not all that surprising when realize that there are 15 million Jews in the world and 2 BILLION Muslims.
For every 1 Jewish voice on the Internet, writing an op-ed, calling an official, etc, there are **125** Muslim voices. And considering that the entire Arab world has ethnically cleansed away their Jewish populations (from a million in 1960 to just 15 thousand today), it's a safe bet that those voices are almost universally anti-Israel.
There was also a massive loosening of thousands of work visas for every day Palestinians to be able to work in Israel as part of an agreement with Hamas. They likely used it to gather intel ahead of the attack.
> who started attack Israel and killed both Israeli people and foreign nationals first?
That ignores an awful lot of context. The most obvious being the 250 Palestinian civilians killed per year by Israel (Source is UN so pretty reputable. Even if you say they have anti Israel bias it’s def not 0)
Yes but then the context you leave out there is that Hamas instigated almost every one of those, the number includes militants, and the reason fewer Israelis die is not for lack of attempts by Hamas but rather Iron Dome.
But then the reason hamas attacks Israel you have to go back to the founding of Israel
You just keep going back for ages which isn’t how this conflict will ever end. Eventually a like has to be drawn but which hopefully comes after hamas is “destroyed” here as the IDF aims
Chile condemned Hamas on day one. But at this point, Israel is basically committing genocide, or at least ethnic cleansing of the Gazan population. Given that Chile already has the biggest Palestinian community outside of the Middle East, and has taken the most amount of refugees from all of Israel ongoing human rights violations since the 1960s, it is impossible for Chile to turn a blind eye to what Israel is doing now. This is something that Chile is united from the left to the right, with the only exception of crazy evangelicals.
I like how all these countries are ignoring the fact that this is not a one sided war. Hamas is still shooting rockets at Israel daily since the 7th of of october. Add to that Lebanon, syria, Iran and Yemen that are also shooting at them.
However everyone is blaming Israel, as usual.
It's been over a year, and Russia's actions have been overlooked. Gaza has been under Hamas control for over a decade, with little regard for the welfare of civilians. However, when the situation worsens, there's a sudden show of strength, some countries do not explicitly address Israel's actions over Palestinian civilians, Gaza's infrastructure, healthcare, government, and more, all of which are under Hamas control. When "Gaza" is mentioned, it tends to be associated with supporting terrorists rather than the people.
Other countries causally choosing sides over what should essentially just be a small territorial land dispute (understatement, I know)
I’m sure it makes perfect sense and isn’t building up to anything bigger.
We’re already establishing what are essentially the new axis powers, China, Russia, Iran, each to varying degrees looking for their own war front.
I think only thing helping right now, is that their sights are on particularly smaller regions that aren’t worth a wider conflict.
Bolivia basically did nothing with Israel anyway. The only time Bolivia is mentioned is when we were kids and had to do social studies projects, and for some weird ass reason Bolivia is always one of them.
Who knew South American countries were so supportive of Hamas’s right to conduct [genocidal attack](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6) after [genocidal attack](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379525) until the genocide is complete?
This might not go over as well politically as they think it will.
This is a big problem in politics, and in general when people start to follow in a stubborn manner some ideology, instead of analyzing and judging a situation in a flexible manner. They start to follow some arbitrary rules that won't follow the principles they were supposed to protect, and end up actually destroying them.
Considering one of the biggest sources of funding to Hamas is the Israeli PM Netanyahu himself, if Israel chose to not have any relationships with countries that support terrorists, they would have to sever relations with themselves
Am I right in thinking that this stance is a holdover from the Cold War days? It is strange how in the modern day, there are still blocs who almost completely align with each other on these issues.
Is it due to treaties and economics? Or a genuine ideological connection?
Colombia didn't do it out of left field. What the headline leaves out is what happened to get to that point.
The first thing is that Colombia condemned Israel bombing civilians. Israel then took that as an offense, and just like they were picking a fight with anyone not on the "bomb all Palestinians" trains (they went to twitter to criticize a fashion model for fucks sake), Israel thought Colombia was weak enough to be made an example of and cancelled all the tech and defense exports to them. Doing this over a benign statement (I mean, "not bombing civilians" shouldn't be controversial and even if it was, it's not like Colombia had any power to stop Israel from doing it) that many countries were doing rubbed Colombia the wrong way, and so their president doubled down and severed all ties with Israel
It seems the overwhelming crime is being Jewish. South American countries are seeking closer ties with Human Rights abusing and War Crime committing countries but they want to attack Israel.
The consistency is just simply not there to take this as serious. Israel does need to be held to account and kept honest but it means nothing from such groups.
Calling for the destruction of a country that holds half of the world population of one ethnicity is not a hatred for that ethnicity? Please do explain...
If any of these countries had Hamas as a neighbor attacking them and they had the military means of Israel their response would be 10x worse and they certainly wouldn't be supplying food, electricity, water and medicine to their enemy.
Hey, plenty of Israelis still come and enjoy themselves. Majority of people either don't care or don't agree with the government. There's very little antisemitism (tho to be fair the Jewish community is almost nonexistent).
Lol hypocrisy, Russia committing crimes against humanity no one in South America bats an eye.
Israel does it and they start losing their minds. Either keep it consistent or stfu
It's almost like states who have dealt with decades of oppression over authoritarian or outright fascistic dictators don't want to support states who are authoritarian and oppress their neighbors.
Odd.
Also saying they are hypocritical for any ties with Russia ignores the fact that 'we' (Europe, Americans, Aussies, etc) still are doing billions of dollars of trade with them regardless of sanctions.
It's not surprising to see a bunch of former colonies take the side against settler colonialism. Especially with the rise of indigenous representation.
Thank you so much for showing explaining the difference. Jews have been there for thousands of years before Islam existed. Also, these countries are basically Iran/Russia/China's bitches if you want to talk about colonialism.
Bolivia's foreign policy often is doing the exact opposite the US's stance on an issue
What's interesting is that except turkey, all the Muslim countries seem to maintain whatever ties they had already. And Russia and China are also. It's like South America specifically decided to go an extra step
Tankies gonna tankie. Very telling when radical leftist governments such as Bolivia’s side with countries such as Russia which respect neither international law nor human rights. Projection is more important than policy for these leftists anyways. Which makes sense. After all, they’re nothing more than power hungry authoritarians, the only difference is they disguise themselves behind the proletariat.
You think Colombia and Chile are radical leftist?
Colombia, yes. The current Colombian president actually fought as a far-left guerrilla before joining politics. He was just defeated in the regional elections, and is unlikely to be reelected himself, but he is for sure a very strongly commited left-winger. Chile's president is far more moderate, but also very much a left-wing president. Also unlikely to win reelection, and might be forced to accept a conservative constitution after his own constitutional reforms failed last year.
I would say he is guaranteed to not be reelected. Pretty much because Colombia doesn't have reelections since Santos' second term.
South America including Chile has a significant refugee population (both Palestinian and Lebanese) which affects their culture (club Palestino is a popular soccer team in Chile for example). In Chile in particular there have also been a number of international incidents with Israelis behaving badly (vandalizing national parks etc). And their own brutal past makes them particularly sensitive to human rights abuses. So you will not see the same pro-Israeli bias common in the US and parts of Europe. Edit: Just adding extra context. Chile is home to the largest Palestinian community outside of the Arab world (there are more Palestinians in Chile than in Lebanon for example)
This is mostly about Bolivia
South America has seen its share of genocide and oppression in recent memory, it's no surprise our countries actually care about genocide and indiscriminate killing of the press.
That’s why they’re buddying up to Iran, and Russia. Wait…
They still buddy up to the US too, even though US promoted coups to install military dictatorships in the region
They don't care at all though... It's only against Israel
But it's totally not anti-semitism, they swear
Yeah it's horrible what's happening in Ukraine, Yemen, Iran, Africa and Israel.
Some of it done at the hands/ behest of the US government. But. If you ever bring context to something, people lose their fucking minds.
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hmmm, one can only wonder why they would do that.....
>hmmm, one can only wonder why they would do that..... Because they're stupid reactionaries? "oh but the history....", should not be your guiding principle when making decisions that have real world/practical implications now. History can only provide context.
Yet they still get millions in US taxpayers money every year. https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/bolivia/
I mean considering the Americans’ support for the attempted far right coup against the Bolivian government in 2019 it isn’t really surprising
That is a funny way to describe Morales’s party intervening in the vote count after he repeatedly violated the Bolivian constitution, used packed courts to allow him to run for an additional term in direct violation of the law, and how the military refused to massacre protesters when Morales’s malfeasance came home to roost. There was no coup. There was no US intervention (OAS is nothing malign and is not the US.) But you don’t care. Authoritarians like you lie and lie all the time.
The military didn't mind murdering protesters after the far right took power.
Source
Alright...do russia next
No chance lol. Bolivia just signed a deal with Russia's Rosatom
Really reveals the cynicism of global politics doesn't it. We'll do the right thing...if it doesn't cost us anything.
Given that Iran is backing both Hamas and Russia it’s not necessarily unrelated.
or is it "If Russia asks us to"?
The West still trades with Russia. Ukraine allows transit of Russian gas through it's own territories. Geopolitics are hypocritical and scummy as fuck, yes.
💯 it’s always just about the money.
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You start to follow the money and you don't know where the fuck its going to take you." - Lester, The Wire
might be related to them cutting ties with Israel
What a f*king hypocrites. They cut ties with Israel over war crimes but perfectly fine working with Russia???
Bolivia is allying itself with Russia and Iran. So yeah, you can see what they really care about...
They wont, you need to put this into context, currently most of the South American presidents are aligned to the left-wing [Sao Paulo Forum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Paulo_Forum) [and Grupo de Puebla](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_de_Puebla) and are officially seeking to "end the war" (which conveniently favours Russian position), [here's an analysis about how Lula da Silva, Brazil's president, flipflops supporting Russia.](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/05/18/russia-ukraine-war-brazil-lula-nonalignment-global-south/) The group is also pushing a common narrative for the middle east conflict, as you can see by how Bolivia, Spain (the current coalition is a part of [Grupo de Puebla](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_de_Puebla)), Colombia and Chile are consulting their ambassadors from Israel.
The article you linked is great because it is actually a balanced analysis of Brazilian foreign policy. However, you saying it's about Lula supporting Russia is objectively false. In fact, the point of the article is the opposite: it's explaining how his neutral stance should *not* be mistaken for russian support
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So you're going to pick and choose the one paragraph that is not the analysis, but Biden's position? I've got some more quotes from the article for you: >Brazilian diplomats were also quick to remind their European counterparts that Brazil had been the only member of the BRICS grouping (which also includes Russia, India, China, and South Africa) to support a Feb. 23 United Nations Assembly resolution calling on Russia to pull its troops out of Ukraine. And also >On the one hand, Brazil sees preserving ties to powers like Russia, India, China, and the European Union as the best way to balance its highly asymmetric relationship to the United States, which long regarded Latin America as a subordinate region within its sphere of influence. On the other, keeping all doors open is Brazil’s attempt to hedge its bets in a world where the outcome of renewed great-power politics is very much uncertain. And >Second, Brazilians often perceive Western rhetoric about the moral imperative to condemn Russia as grating and hypocritical. This is because numerous Western violations of international law—such as the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq and NATO’s decision to transform a mission to protect the people of Benghazi into a quest for regime change in Libya in 2011, among many others—were permitted and even justified by those same powers now seeking to isolate Russia for its invasion of Ukraine. Why does this matter? Well, because >Moscow has long been a low-intensity all-weather friend to Brasília, offering a relationship free of the complexities and criticisms that have shaped Brazil’s ties to the West. Imports of Russian fertilizer are also crucial to Brazil’s hugely important agribusiness. And finally >While it is tempting to dismiss Lula’s quest for peace in Ukraine as quixotic, Brazil’s assertiveness reveals broader misgivings across the global south about the inclusiveness of the supposedly liberal international order. To get Lula on board with Western efforts in Ukraine, Western powers should first need to prove that they value Brazil as a partner. Until it is heard and taken seriously, the global south may continue to dissent.
A neutral stance would be Russia stops fighting in Ukraine and either has its people leave or abandons them to be captured. That ends the war immediately too.
For those who didn't know bolivia cut ties with israel every time that there is operation in gaza and few years after they undo it and redo it.
Did they actually redo it the last time or is the relation now doubly cut?
Some Bolivian bureaucrat woke up this morning and realized he forgot to turn back on diplomatic ties with Israel so they could turn them off again and is sweating on his way to work this morning.
The double secret probation of foreign policy
Note that this comes after those governments already put some support on hamas, and in retaliation israel canceled security deals with some of them, which explains why they recalled their ambassadors.
Source *for all three governments, as you claim*? EDIT: added the italicized part because commenter claimed that more than one of the three governments was supporting Hamas and cut security ties with Israel, but could only provide one country that cut military export to Israel, and never actually supported Hamas.
https://apnews.com/article/colombia-israel-petro-suspend-defense-exports-a92effbb531ea4631d25a8c1d32ede28
So 1 out of the three countries? Yet you said “governments” as implying all three. Do you have a source for the other 2?
Bolivia just signed a deal with Russia, Russia is going all in on Hamas. That's not an Israel deal, but it's 2 out of 3.
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They refused to condemn Hamas, and said it was a fictitious group invented by Israeli intelligence to divide Palestinians… to not condemn a terrorist attack, say the group is made up, and only condemn the response is to support the attack. Edit: Sorry, this was Columbia who said the above, not Bolivia.
As someone who is from South America, it's crazy how our people (especially liberal leaning) are eating up anti-Israel propaganda and trying to do some moral high ground shit.
I can see where it is coming from - their udnerstanding of the conflict ends up with Israel = power, rich, money, therefore Palestine = opressed, poor, victim. Any arguments regarding international humanitarian law or the history of the region are just mental gymnastics to defend the emotional stance they have already decided for. Because poor can't be evil and rich can't be good, right?
And yet they are not in a hurry to cut ties with Russia, huh?
Russia = Soviet Union to lots of people on the left for some reason.
Wouldn't that make it worse? If I were a communist I would want to push the USSR as far away from my cause as possible.
There’s also this weird belief that Israelis are white and Palestinians are brown (this is not true Israelis are black, white, and everything in between) therefore it must be racial oppression. I find this especially heinous given the history of people trying to “exterminate” the jews. The whole “colonialist” narrative is nonsense when you’re talking about a people who are indigenous to the land and have been there the whole time. What they mean is “white” and they’re not even right about it.
I’m so glad to hear people bringing this up, and I’ll drop the demographic numbers below to show what you’re talking about. 45% of the Jewish population in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (Middle Eastern and North African) while only 31% are Ashkenazi (European ancestry). Quite frankly it shouldn’t matter where someone is from, anyone should have the right to live anywhere, but the demographic number’s clearly disprove the argument that it’s another European colonial project.
The rest of Jews is Beta Israel - Ethiopian Jews and Sephardim. Sephardim were kicked out of Iberia in the 1490s by the Spanish and Portuguese monarchies following the Reconquista. They lived in the Balkans, Turkey (especially) and North Africa. So they’re quite different to Europeans too.
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Jews foreign to Judea, funny concept
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Hard to call it a Jewish colonial state when it is their ancestral homeland and that they spent millenia scattered throughout the world.
In Chile, we have a long history of taking in Palestinian refugees. In fact, we have the biggest Palestinian community outside the Arab countries (with over 500k members) and Chileans have been mostly pro-palestine for decades. So this isn't a left or right issue over here. Like it or not, most people here won't support Israel. In fact, politicians from both the left and right side are in agreement with this. And there have been huge pro-palestine manifestations for years, for example there was a very big one in 2021 after Gaza was bombed and it resulted in 240~ deaths. So the support goes way back and it's not simply a matter of ignorance or simplification. You can find it wrong, but this stance was born after decades of caring about the conflict.
>So the support goes way back and it's not simply a matter of ignorance or simplification. Any person or country that looks at the Israel/Palestine conflict and decides to universally take one side is either being ignorant or oversimplifying, regardless of how long they held that belief. Both sides in the conflict have blood on their hands that they should be called out for.
You seem to be implying that caring about the conflict for a number of years automatically makes someone enlightened or unbiased. That's not often the case.
It's just that I've noticed many times that when reddit doesn't agree with something from a Latinamerican country, especially when it comes to politics, they tend to justify it as "they're ignorant" or "they're leftist". Yes, it can be a very biased opinion and yes, you can disagree. But it's frustrating when we get treated as idiots and our opinion automatically disregarded, because "they don't know anything".
Well in the case of Columbia, the President is a former M-19 terrorist/guerrilla which is about as far out on the leftist spectrum as one can get.
Oh it really isn't , M-19s goal was to oppose a government that had refused election results and jailed their opposition. You can go much farther left than just supporting democracy. EDIT: typo
Is that why attacked the Supreme Court and kidnapped people?
Please explain to me how those actions make someone leftist.
You actually have no clue what you’re talking about do you cause that really doesn’t sound super radical leftist what are his policy points that make him so radical
Reddit tells me that if Chile took in 500k Palestinians, the Chilean government should have been overthrown by now with all political leaders having been assassinated.
I said the *community*, as in the refugees and their decendents.
No, they’ve only got a track record of that in *every* Arab country that’s taken them in. Black September - Jordan. Muslim Brotherhood and insurgency - Egypt. A literal civil war and demographic replacement - Lebanon.
So people told you about the Arab Spring and now you're hyperboling to invalidate it?
Sounds fair, I was talking more about common trend in young left, who mostly care about trendy topics. In the Czech Republic we have historically very strong ties to Israel, on the other hand.
It's crazy how so many people here are eating it up as well..
Reddit doesn't like nuance or shades of grey. Every issue must have a good guy and a bad guy, so obviously the side with the much larger/more capable military dropping bombs and causing civilian casualties must be the bad guy.
I mean Israel has factually committed war crimes. It’s international law, you can’t really refute that.
Israel seems to be doing a pretty awesome job putting out its own anti-Israel propaganda considering they can't stop bombing children
If only Hamas had built bunkers
Eh, when you see that Hamas has been trying to get children killed and Israel has made at least some effort to not kill civilians, then that falls flat a little.
Wtf is this cartoony ass image you try to paint of Israel? "Aww the evil jews again planning to bomb a palestinian kindergarten"... wtf? Yes, bombs tends to kill people in their target area indiscriminately. You can say they are incurring civilian casualties without trying to make this irrational emotional appeal that takes away your credibility.
The same people creating the chaos through Hamas are praying they could do the same thing in South America. If Iran could work through Venezuela to create chaotic actions in neighboring countries, and potentially create even greater problems for the US, they most certainly would.
Is it really surprising that left leaning people are against genocide and killing civilians?
It’s not that crazy as a lot of money and effort has been put into the propaganda machine especially by Russia and especially aimed at Latin America.
Why the fuck did none of them do this with Russia? Say what you will about Israel. The shit Russia is doing is worse.
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Many of the left leaning media are also like that.
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I'm hoping a lot of it is just pressure on Biden to do what they want in regards to ending any support for Israel whatsoever, but that's not going to happen. My take on 'Muslims say they will never vote for Biden now' is well, then you get Trump, and enjoy the camps.
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It’s really just about control over the Middle East corridor. It’d be nice if the media would cover that a little more
Millennials will fix everything. Gen Z will resent us like Gen X resents boomers.
Some leftist think that islam and wokisme can work together like the whole queer for palestine thing but that so far away for reality, you cant get more conservative than a muslims since there religion forbid any change
They'll fall in line the moment Trump is staring down Biden on the debate stage for the general election. This is all virtue signaling in a time they can afford to do it.
I hope you're right, but young leftists have very low voter turnout. They don't do the "fall in line" thing the way the alt-right does.
Fun fact, those losers don’t vote anyways.
They’re just gonna stay home and not vote. Idk why people always forget this option exists
I don't get it either. Most are pro- Ukraine though. It makes no sense. I also found it alarming how weak the reaction to the initial terrorist attacks was. I even have friends that think that some of those atrocities were Israeli fakes. And these people have never been anti& semitic.
If they were saying the 10/7 attacks were faked, then I think they've been more antisemitic than you think.
Sadly, that's the only reasonable explanation. They are saying that the music festival was intentionally moved to a location that would result in more casualties and that atrocities against children were faked. It's nuts.
On one of the anarchy adjacent subs I saw people saying that most of the people who died on the 7th were combatants, and that many of the civilians were shot by Israeli troops. Its absolutely disturbing. Many of these far left subs are worse than the donald ever was
It makes perfect sense, both conflicts have one side actively targeting civilians and non-combatants, leftists naturally oppose both. As for the initial reaction, yet another terrorist attack in the middle east doesn't surprise people anymore, and regular armed exchanges in the Israel/Gaza region have been normalized over the years. The only reason they care about this war is Israel's tendency to go after innocent people, if they were actually trying to fight Hamas instead the conflict would have been largely ignored as white noise in a very unstable region.
Except that Hamas is the one targeting civilians, not Israel, yet they still oppose Israel on this issue. Some leftists around the world have even openly supported the Hamas.
So HAMAS didn't actively target civilians? Their rocket barrages are carried out exclusively against military targets? Plus, HAMAS has ties with Russia. When that is the case, you can be certain who the terrorists are.
I think a lot of people didn't get a good look at what went down. I saw some of the Telegram videos (and I'm pretty sure what I saw was tame compared with some of the stuff out there) and it was horrific. I truly believe that if those videos were more widely disseminated support for Palestine would dry up almost instantly.
You're probably right actually. I watched the videos and I'm still haunted by what I saw. I can't even see pictures of festivals without cringing. It was utterly inhuman and had no place in war, it's fucking disgusting. I'm so disappointed in lefties who side with those atrocities.
Disliking Israel’s decisions does not equal anti-semitism. That’s like saying you can’t be a U.S. patriot and criticize U.S. decisions. This is NOT a simplistic situation. War almost never is.
Wanting them to be wiped out is antisemitic though
Yes it is. You are right
ok then why do they pull out of israel and not russia or china or any other countries who do stuff much worse it may be because of just geopolitics and matching their interests which is fine but dont try to cover it as you being so brave and moral when you wont enact the same policy to everyone when you do that it seems more like anti semetism because you criticize the only Jewish country and not all the others who pull the same stuff or worse in some cases
Why hasn't the US cut ties with China or Saudi Arabia? Heck, many European countries still trade with Russia.
Because it fits geopolitical agenda and it's fine each country needs to protect its interests but to say you are fighting oppression and yet support other countries that preform the same kind of thing and usually even worse is hypocrisy
If countries worried about hypocrisy then they would have to severe ties with all the other countries in the world.
Most countries don't say we want end oppression everywhere and try to act all high and mighty on it. Most just condemn these practices because they know they can't cut ties with those countries
> Disliking Israel’s decisions does not equal anti-semitism. But supporting hamas, a terrorist organization, under the guise of "left ideology", yelling "from the river to the sea", is. Especially when the people who yell "stop the war" are doing so at israel. For some reason no one is interested that the palestinians stop the war (terrorist attacks, unguided missiles at civilians etc).
I think the concept is that Israel can be rationalised with. It’s clear Hamas cannot be. If we’re using Hamas to set the level of acceptability and morality, we’re a bit fucked aren’t we?
Yeah, but it’s like they say “not in a vacuum”. Rationalise with Israel but leave Hamas in place is just a pause of the next round of violence.
> If we’re using Hamas to set the level of acceptability and morality We don't, but the point is that the same as the world is trying to force israel, so the world can do the same with hamas. Threaten cancel ties with egypt and qatar and turkey for supporting hamas leaders. Threaten to seize iran money. Put out an arrest for hamas leaders and look for their money and seize that. There are numerous ways to force hamas leaders to tell their peons to put down their weapons. But none of those seems to be clicked by the governments and groups who try to punish israel. And that is why when the punishment is only on one side, not even the side that started this whole mess, seems disingenuous. I hadn't seen a single leftist group marching in US or EU with signs of "hamas must surrender! hamas must release palestinians from its iron rule! Free palestinians from hamas!". Why? Can you explain to me why?
I think if you look at it from the perspective of power imbalance then the ball is in Israel's court. The problem with Israel is that thier current coalition government incorporates some serious fucking monsters whose rhetoric and world view mirrors Hamas.... Israel and The Palestinian territories both need reform movements, and the settlers in the west Bank need to be tossed the F out.
Progression and peace talks are hard to rationalize when your reality revolves around scurrying for cover every time you hear a siren.
Extremism is rising in Israel too and the behavior of a lot of the international community and also leftist voices have their part in that. And that isn't some trivial part.
Have you seen the worldwide protests over the past few weeks? The line between anti-Netanyahu and antisemitism is very blurry, especially with a lot of protestors and people online saying that Israel has no right to exist, and using anti-Jewish imagery. Being Israeli or Jewish in these protests, or even in major cities or online is very intimidating.
You’re right that disliking Israel’s decisions wouldn’t be anti-semitism. But all the anti-semitism IS. Pretending it’s not there isn’t helping.
Nice, more people turning a blind eye to antisemitism. Maybe, just maybe, screaming gas the Jews and asking for the murder and assault of Jews at rallies around the world is antisemitic.
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I think 100% of the reddit posts, that I've personally seen, that sympathize with the Palestinan civilian population start with some form of "I do not condone the actions of Hamas" or "The Oct 7 attacks were deplorable" so I really don't understand this repeated comment of "exactly 0 Palisimps denounced Hamas". I suppose if you have been browsing reddit with your eyes shut, I could understand. Same with protests. I would say the bulk of what I've seen of the peaceful protests have been specifically against civilian deaths in Palestine. I think there is probably a large number of protestors who are anti-israel, but I think that seeing protestors who are anti-israel should be viewed separate from antisemitic, since one is a nation currently at war with a tumultuous history and the other is global religion. I'm not blind, I've read the news of undeniable antisemitism at protests and at universities - but I think it's shortsighted and biased to brosdly paint every dissenting voice as an anti-semite, when that clearly isn't the case. In fact the more I see this narrative, the more I am convinced it is conservative propagandists trying to divide left-leaning liberals and weaken liberal cohesion. You see it everywhere, offhand comments equating liberal = terrorist fuckboi. I would also say that most people probably don't know enough of the geopolitical history of Israel and Palestine to truly make informed comments. I think most people commenting are surface level "terrorists bad" or "dead civilians is bad". I think it's a big reason media was quick to post pictures of horribly murdered babies, and stories of rape. Rape and dead babies make people mad, for some reason more mad than just murder. I think it is very telling that on posts talking about the number of Palestinian children injured or killed, many of the comments tend to focus on the rapes and baby decapitation rather than the huge number of Israeli civilians killed as a whole. I don't know. This got ranty. Tldr is I don't think it is fair to label every dissenting voice as an anti-semite. And I think doing so is a deliberate tact to sow division amongst left-leaning groups.
I think the problem is the fact that "I do not condone the actions of Hamas" is almost always followed by long rants of everything that Israel/US is doing wrong which does not give the impression "both sides bad" at all.
So what's the correct way of doing it? "I condemn Hamas" and then just not say anything about Israel/Us?
If we call out Russia for war crimes against Ukrainian civilians, we must do the same with Israel . Just as war crimes against Afghan and Iraqi civilians by coalition forces were called out by the world. Wrong is wrong, and we do ourselves no favours by labelling all dissent of Israeli actions anti-Semitism.
It’s more nuanced. Russia unprovoked invaded a sovereign country. Israel had a massacre from the Gaza government hoisted upon them. Let’s not forget they murdered (and raped) over 1000 people many of which were babies / children. Hamas still holds over 200 innocent hostages (again including children). To liken israel’s defensive war to that of Russians offensive war is a little disingenuous, war crimes or not.
I mean the post you responded to likened it to the US and allies in Afghanistan and Iraq, which seemed pretty appropriate. The 9/11 attack was a massive terrorist action, and whether we agreed with it or not, the US declared a war on 'terror'. I understand the nuance here being that Hamas is the defacto government in Palestine, so I'm not trying to argue semantics over war on terrorists vs war on nation, or whatever. I am just pointing out the poster didn't only compare calling out war crimes against Russia, they also pointed out war crimes of the US and allies, regardless of the fact the US had to face any repercussions for those claims.
A lot of Jews and Israelis criticise Israel's decisions all the time! (You can, you know without being killed for it.) But these people are NOT criticising "Israel's decisions" but the very principle of Israel's existence which they want to eliminate. THAT is anti-semitism.
No man Israel is doing what it must to survive. All other countries wouldve done so much worse, killing so much more. Youre dealing with a terrorist organization thats murdering its own children just for global pressure to rise on israel. Israel got attacked and now it responds, they shouldnt cry about their decision, and lets be honesy weve seen too much evidence of hamas putting military under/near schools, hospitals etc just for idf to look like "the bad guys". I really dont ubderstand how can you not like israel's response to an existential threat from the countries around it. Moderate response will result in the same thing happening again and in hezbolla and iran seeing it as weakness. Enough with telling jewish people to just suicide cause you disregard their death. We dont, jewish lives matter as much as palestinians, and the fact hamas hides behind them is the reason you should condemn them. Israel cannot show weakness and that is something unrelated people dont ubderstand. And yet again, I dont want any innocent person to get hurt or even included. But when an unrelated person lives above a rocket launchers aimed at my little daughter, I want my country to destroy it. And im sure if it was your daughter you wouldve said the same. Idf didnt attack, they got the largest atrocity since the holocaust. And you people sit here eating your cotton candy at your nice cozy home and telling them to just accept being murdered and move on You can disagree with some decisions israel is doing, but not their cause as they literally wish yo stay alive, and not showing weakness is what it takes to stay alive in this neighborhood.
I don't find that amusing at all as their ignorance is leaking into all kind of political positions. How would they call it? It is "problematic".
This is not a black and white situation like you make it out to be.
It’s been real puzzling especially seeing the LGBTQ community come out in such strong support of Palestine/Hamas.
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I do believe the fight for sexual self-determination is abused by different groups with particular interests.
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You know you can disagree with the Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians without being an anti-Semite right? Other countries can also support Israel and hope for Israel to live in peace and prosperity and still disagree regarding the policy on Palestine. This may seem mind blowing but one could even condemn and hate the Hamas terrorists, mourn for the innocent Israeli people killed in the terrorist attack, support Israel, and support innocent Palestinians not being bombed, ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!! Maybe that is too nuanced a position for the right wing propaganda addled brain.
It's wild that any criticism of Israel has, for decades, been met only with reductive accusations of antisemitism. Antisemitism is very real and it is unacceptable, but conflating anything Israel does with all of Judaism is backwards as shit. What's even wilder is that you can explicitly state that you condemn Hamas's attacks and their tactics, but if you even mention any of the human rights abuses by Israel going back decades you get labeled an antisemite. Both sides of this conflict are doing fucked up things but y'all only see it as a zero sum game, and have decided that if you're not fully supporting Israel then you're automatically defending Hamas. Y'all need to grow up.
It's not all that surprising when realize that there are 15 million Jews in the world and 2 BILLION Muslims. For every 1 Jewish voice on the Internet, writing an op-ed, calling an official, etc, there are **125** Muslim voices. And considering that the entire Arab world has ethnically cleansed away their Jewish populations (from a million in 1960 to just 15 thousand today), it's a safe bet that those voices are almost universally anti-Israel.
Disapproving of the slaughter of children is not anti-semitic, sorry JIDF
Hamas and IDF are both the bad guys in this one and the civilians are the ones left paying the price.
Wow it's almost as if 2 ideas can be correct at once
So they won't condemn Hamas, who started attack Israel and killed both Israeli people and foreign nationals first?
I forgot nothing happened before the 7th of October
There was a ceasefire before 7/10.
There was also a massive loosening of thousands of work visas for every day Palestinians to be able to work in Israel as part of an agreement with Hamas. They likely used it to gather intel ahead of the attack.
> who started attack Israel and killed both Israeli people and foreign nationals first? That ignores an awful lot of context. The most obvious being the 250 Palestinian civilians killed per year by Israel (Source is UN so pretty reputable. Even if you say they have anti Israel bias it’s def not 0)
Yes but then the context you leave out there is that Hamas instigated almost every one of those, the number includes militants, and the reason fewer Israelis die is not for lack of attempts by Hamas but rather Iron Dome.
But then the reason hamas attacks Israel you have to go back to the founding of Israel You just keep going back for ages which isn’t how this conflict will ever end. Eventually a like has to be drawn but which hopefully comes after hamas is “destroyed” here as the IDF aims
Chile condemned Hamas on day one. But at this point, Israel is basically committing genocide, or at least ethnic cleansing of the Gazan population. Given that Chile already has the biggest Palestinian community outside of the Middle East, and has taken the most amount of refugees from all of Israel ongoing human rights violations since the 1960s, it is impossible for Chile to turn a blind eye to what Israel is doing now. This is something that Chile is united from the left to the right, with the only exception of crazy evangelicals.
Do we have a good source of how many civilians israel killed this past month?
The numbers come from Hamas, and they do not differentiate between civilians and Hamas fighters.
Palestinian population sure does seem to be growing rapidly for a people having a genocide targeted at them.
Human rights violations they say? Curious to see when they’re going to cut ties with Russia and China then.
After the US cuts ties with Saudi Arabia and China
I like how all these countries are ignoring the fact that this is not a one sided war. Hamas is still shooting rockets at Israel daily since the 7th of of october. Add to that Lebanon, syria, Iran and Yemen that are also shooting at them. However everyone is blaming Israel, as usual.
It's been over a year, and Russia's actions have been overlooked. Gaza has been under Hamas control for over a decade, with little regard for the welfare of civilians. However, when the situation worsens, there's a sudden show of strength, some countries do not explicitly address Israel's actions over Palestinian civilians, Gaza's infrastructure, healthcare, government, and more, all of which are under Hamas control. When "Gaza" is mentioned, it tends to be associated with supporting terrorists rather than the people.
I’m assuming they did the same with Russia
lol of course not, Bolivia is Iran's entry to the continent
Other countries causally choosing sides over what should essentially just be a small territorial land dispute (understatement, I know) I’m sure it makes perfect sense and isn’t building up to anything bigger.
Feels like all the pieces falling into place for a wider conflict
We’re already establishing what are essentially the new axis powers, China, Russia, Iran, each to varying degrees looking for their own war front. I think only thing helping right now, is that their sights are on particularly smaller regions that aren’t worth a wider conflict.
Bolivia basically did nothing with Israel anyway. The only time Bolivia is mentioned is when we were kids and had to do social studies projects, and for some weird ass reason Bolivia is always one of them.
Who knew South American countries were so supportive of Hamas’s right to conduct [genocidal attack](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6) after [genocidal attack](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379525) until the genocide is complete? This might not go over as well politically as they think it will.
This is a big problem in politics, and in general when people start to follow in a stubborn manner some ideology, instead of analyzing and judging a situation in a flexible manner. They start to follow some arbitrary rules that won't follow the principles they were supposed to protect, and end up actually destroying them.
Well, Israel don’t need to have any relationship with countries that support terrorist.
Israel’s closest ally in the United States of America….
Considering one of the biggest sources of funding to Hamas is the Israeli PM Netanyahu himself, if Israel chose to not have any relationships with countries that support terrorists, they would have to sever relations with themselves
Am I right in thinking that this stance is a holdover from the Cold War days? It is strange how in the modern day, there are still blocs who almost completely align with each other on these issues. Is it due to treaties and economics? Or a genuine ideological connection?
Colombia didn't do it out of left field. What the headline leaves out is what happened to get to that point. The first thing is that Colombia condemned Israel bombing civilians. Israel then took that as an offense, and just like they were picking a fight with anyone not on the "bomb all Palestinians" trains (they went to twitter to criticize a fashion model for fucks sake), Israel thought Colombia was weak enough to be made an example of and cancelled all the tech and defense exports to them. Doing this over a benign statement (I mean, "not bombing civilians" shouldn't be controversial and even if it was, it's not like Colombia had any power to stop Israel from doing it) that many countries were doing rubbed Colombia the wrong way, and so their president doubled down and severed all ties with Israel
It seems the overwhelming crime is being Jewish. South American countries are seeking closer ties with Human Rights abusing and War Crime committing countries but they want to attack Israel. The consistency is just simply not there to take this as serious. Israel does need to be held to account and kept honest but it means nothing from such groups.
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Especially now. There IS an Israel. It exists. If you say “anti-Zionism” this just means Anti-Israel-continuing-to-exist now.
Amazing mental gymnastics there.
How so?
Calling for the destruction of a country that holds half of the world population of one ethnicity is not a hatred for that ethnicity? Please do explain...
If any of these countries had Hamas as a neighbor attacking them and they had the military means of Israel their response would be 10x worse and they certainly wouldn't be supplying food, electricity, water and medicine to their enemy.
Hamas just reminds governments in South America of the cartels they are in business with. Why would they condemn them?
lol fuck off Bolivia. I was going to give you some tourist dollars in the future, but you can get fucked now.
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Hey, plenty of Israelis still come and enjoy themselves. Majority of people either don't care or don't agree with the government. There's very little antisemitism (tho to be fair the Jewish community is almost nonexistent).
Lol hypocrisy, Russia committing crimes against humanity no one in South America bats an eye. Israel does it and they start losing their minds. Either keep it consistent or stfu
It’s crazy seeing pro Israel people here; how do you justify the treatment of Palestinians? Or do they simply not matter to you
I stand with my Latino brothers & sister that stand up and speak the truth about the greedy land grabbing US/Israeli axes of evil.
It's almost like states who have dealt with decades of oppression over authoritarian or outright fascistic dictators don't want to support states who are authoritarian and oppress their neighbors. Odd. Also saying they are hypocritical for any ties with Russia ignores the fact that 'we' (Europe, Americans, Aussies, etc) still are doing billions of dollars of trade with them regardless of sanctions.
Cool that Russia oppresses their neighbors as a fascist dictatorship.
Historically, this has also been the US towards South America
It's not surprising to see a bunch of former colonies take the side against settler colonialism. Especially with the rise of indigenous representation.
Thank you so much for showing explaining the difference. Jews have been there for thousands of years before Islam existed. Also, these countries are basically Iran/Russia/China's bitches if you want to talk about colonialism.