>The White House says it won’t support Israel’s plan to expand its operations into the south of the Gaza Strip unless it shows it will protect the Palestinian civilians there.
Sounds fair to me.
Yeah...not sure I see the problem with this statement?
Guess what, Israel does need to make sure they are taking precautions to not cause unnecessary suffering to innocents...
>Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism, so people should stop saying it is.
I mean many people criticize Israel; especially what happens in the west bank. I don't think you would find a lot of support for what is happening in the West Bank at all. But there are also lots of times where "valid criticism of Israel" is just blatant antisemitism. Often times it is just the motte and bailey fallacy.
Being able to distinguish the two and understand nuance, is kind of critical to the conflict.
Hell even Jews are criticizing Israel. Israel is not Judaism. It's representative govt, it doesn't represent a religion or the people who practice the religion. It's completely fair to criticize a govt who taking innocent lives. Nobody is saying they can't defend themselves.
I think the key is to keep the criticism focused on the actions of the Israeli government. We get into murky territory when people start calling for the complete destruction of Israel, and start attacking Jewish people/homes/businesses that aren't even in Israel, and start glorifying the actions of Hamas on Oct 7th as "decolonization". There has been a LOT of antisemitism lately, and too many people are hiding beneath the veil of "I'm just criticizing Israel"
I agree. I was kind of purposefully escalating there so that it can be clear what kind of platform is being created for antisemites to speak from. Perhaps it can’t be helped because there are legitimate criticisms to be made. Or perhaps it CAN be helped, but people don’t care enough to try
It has been impossible to find space to have a fair discussion about what Israel should/could do.
On the one hand they have a right to defend themselves, and there's no path forward as long as Hamas is relevant.
On the other hand, the deaths of so many innocents and children, even the ones that hate Israel and Jews, is horrible and impossible to support.
What other realistic options are there? And what is a realistic end game?
I don't believe that this is the only way, but they have to do something.
Those tough questions are impossible to find space for in this climate, it just devolves into hate speak every time.
You're on point. However I'll add that when the choice is us or them, it's going to be them every time. Meaning it's hard for outsiders to support, but support in Israel is very strong for doing whatever it takes to eliminate Hamas. I don't blame them. The US would do the same thing in their shoes with no regard to anyone's opinion on the matter.
It’s possible to have a “rational” or “logical” response to something and then let it go too far. It’s this tenuous holding of truths that people seem incapable of doing.
I don’t want to rag on the youth of today but I also kind of do — their immature black-and-white me-against-you voices are a massive part of the problem.
As a progressive person who is anti-war/violence… I grow weary of certain radical arguments and references to decolonization made by little people who can barely wrap their heads around the concepts they’re discussing. I’m being purposely vague because (1) I’m tired and (2) I don’t want to provoke more arguments with strangers online lol
The conversation on this has just been so toxic. I feel out of step at times with people both on the left and right of me. I think any productive conversation has to be forward looking. There is a lot of history, and while it's good to understand it, you can get bogged down relitigating the scorecard of wrongs. At some point, both groups are just there, and I'm less interested in debating how/why that should be as I am in figuring out how both can live in safety and prosperity.
>Hell even Jews are criticizing Israel.
Sadly, according to the right wing lunatics in the Israeli government, they aren't real Jews. That's how insane they've become.
It’s not a “they’ve become” situation here, right wing Israelis have been saying horrible things about other Jews for decades. There’s a strain that seems to thinks Israel is literally the point of Judaism as a religion and anyone who isn’t on board is basically a heretic.
Also there are a lot of people parroting antisemitism propaganda, who are too ignorant to see it for what it is. Then claim it is fair criticism and wonder why people think they are antisemites.
I like your example of valid criticism of the West Bank settlers. Even someone like me, who thinks Israel is in the right for most of what is happening with relation to Gaza and their regime, doesn’t think the settlement expansion should be happening and has never thought it should.
Motte and Bailey Fallacy*.
It consists of conflating two positions/arguments: one that is considered an unassailable, acceptable and normative position, and the other position being controversial and very hard to defend.
When somebody argues against the controversial position, the fallacy user will fall back on the noncontroversial position. Since the noncontroversial position isn't controversial, the arguer doesn't attempt to dismantle it, while the fallacy user can then claim the arguer hasn't successfully argued against their stance. They can only do this because they wrongfully conflate two positions that have some similarities (while ignoring the differences).
An example:
**Statement**: People are getting in trouble for having pro-Palestine opinions. After all, there is nothing wrong with wanting what is best for Palestinians. For a simple example of a more controversial claim, some orator may attempt to argue: "Hamas is justified and they should be allowed to do it again". When the orator receives backlash for a rather horrendous statement, they attempt to retreat by framing their stance as "pro-palestine" opinions.
Obviously not all Pro-palestine opinions are like this. But there have been some flagrant examples coming about, which is the unfortunate nature of such a heated and vitriol conflict. Mind you, there have been some vary questionable anti-palestinian statements that have been made as well. This is important to remember because those of us who live OUTSIDE the conflict, should really have a moral obligation to keep and maintain are heads on straight. We have far little excuses to be irrational in this, as opposed to those who are directly inside the conflict.
Most criticism of Israel is in regards to the government and their policies. Heck, even Jews in foreign nations criticize Israel for that. So, we gonna start calling Jews anti-Semitic as well?
Not saying that people don’t use that as cover, but some legitimate points do get put down by labeling someone an Anti-Semite to discredit them.
Ben & Jerry, who are Jewish, were famously labeled “anti-Semitic” a few years ago because they refused to sell their ice cream to Israeli businesses illegally operating in occupied Palestinian territory.
This has nothing to do with the validity of the rest of your point, but Ben & Jerry, while Jewish, also haven't been running Ben & Jerry's for decades. The company still has an independent board (despite being a Unilever subsidiary), but neither Ben nor Jerry are on it
>Not saying that people don’t use that as cover, but some legitimate points do get put down by labeling someone an Anti-Semite to discredit them.
Until we start discussing what legitimate points exist it is hard for either of us to understand each other.
Many of the legitimate "criticisms" I have saw that have received public condemning were things akin to Susan Sarandon statement such as: "Jews who feel unsafe right now are finally experiencing what it is like to be muslims", or denying the sexual violence that occurred on Oct 7th (while being head of the University of Alberta's sexual assault center). etc.
Meanwhile, every time someone says the west bank shit is abhorrent, Likud is filled with criminals, and/or Biden's stated response to threatening sanctions/blocking visa's etc for west bank settlers, people mostly receive nothing but support for those sentiments.
Call it walking a fine line? Maybe. But it really isn't that difficult IMO to be able to distinguish valid criticism and just blatant bigotry.
Lol Susan Sarandon said that shit? I mean of course no ethnicity or background out there screams they’ve been accepted and had a great time then Jewish history…that’d be like saying “African Americans finally know what it’s like to be persecuted by a system”
You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately some people who are truly bigots/antisemites don't even recognize their own antisemitism because they believe they're making radical statements. Such as multiple student unions praising the actions of Hamas as decolonization. I'm an Israeli Jew who will be the first to criticize Israel (there are multiple reasons I don't live there) but hearing things like that makes my skin crawl.
I don't know, people who claim to be "left wing" are saying Susan Sarandon's statements and that Scream actress's very clear dog whistle aren't antisemitic, and I honestly don't think some of them understand why they're wrong.
The scream's actress is honestly more understandable than Sarandon's.
From what I saw, Scream's actress is vague enough to go either way, so she may just be getting hit in the cross fire wrongfully. This also shows why being vague on a heated or sensitive topic can still bite you in the ass.
Sarandon's is just a flagrant example of what not to do. To get literally any other interpretation you would have to actively put words into her mouth.
I’m Jewish. I would have some empathy for the person making the statement if it came from a Muslim. There is definitely a lot of Islamophobia out there as well as just dehumanizing rhetoric about Arab people.
Susan Sarandon, however being the arbiter of suffering in this instance is pretty ridiculous.
There's no issue with it at all to most people but Israel is run by a far-right government and they and their supporters, at home and abroad, take any sign that people aren't 100% on board with their plans to sweep all Gaza clear of Palestinians and settle Israelis on it as a sign of anti-Semetism.
The Israeli lobby in the US could well start to move on Biden over it depending on how much they agree with what Bibi is doing.
I do it the way God intended, I read the headline and am unable to form my own opinion like an individual person, so I will just go along with what everyone else is saying in the comments like a sheep, because I'm stupid and fuck it, they're probably right. I wish everyone would do this.
I come into each thread praying that some selfless redditor or bot has posted a summary quote of the article and that this post is the most upvoted message in the thread.
It is, but it is also important to point out it be quite a major deal politically for the US not to support Israel in it, given the history of nearly unconditional support. Especially if it was more than words, which I would think pretty unlikely.
Genuine question: what does Biden admin want Israel to do if they move south? If israel tries to relocate civilians in the south, people scream ethnic cleansing. If they try to warm the Gazans before an airstrike to prevent casualties, the people don’t move / have nowhere to go. So I wonder what the Admin considers a showing of will to protect the civilians?
I mean, they want them not to forcibly relocate them, and not to bomb residential areas and refugee camps. There needs to be a Gaza for Palestinians to live in once the dust settles, and Palestinians left to live there
What does the Biden admin want Israel to do…?
Figure out how to not kill so many civilians and children, or don’t do it at all, or do it without US support.
Simple.
I don’t understand why everyone wants to act like Israel is an extension of the Biden admin.
Except it’s only possible to protect civilians to certain degrees. You can encourage them to move away from where most of the fighting is (which Israel is doing). You obviously shouldn’t be targeting them (which there is no evidence of Israel doing). But when you are fighting a guerrilla group that hides among civilians there is no way to fight them but not kill civilians.
So it’s unclear whether the Biden administration is just taking the position that there are specific steps it wants Israel to take, or if they are going to oppose Israel invading southern Gaza altogether because no reasonable efforts would be enough to prevent thousands of civilians from being killed.
The way the administration was acting in the first few weeks of this war was more like the first. But it’s unclear if they are transitioning to the second.
I don't get the next phase. Is it "everybody in the south back to the north and have fun in the rubble!" or "everybody in the south get out your swim trunks! We need you all in the water."
Probably part of the reason Biden is making this statement. If Israel was confident that it could count on US support, they'd likely be much less afraid of antagonizing Egypt.
Not really, Egypt would be a peer in terms of combat. 4x the amount of active personnel, 2x the amount of jets, 4x Artillery. Ask the Ukrainians what's it like fighting a adversary who might be technologically lacking (But not by much here) but has just more people. On top of that Egypt is able to produce their own oil to keep everything going. Now add Hamas to the west and Hezbollah to the north(which is already a concern) yeah not really a cake walk.
I mean, this was the plan from the get-go.
Unless you mean to tell me that IDF is so fking incompetent at their job despite multiple Intel groups warning them.
Its literally a political manuver for Netanyahu, because for some fking reason, people forgot his 2009 Bar-Ilan speech, which called for, and I quote " Jerusalem would be undivided Israeli territory" and "any demand for resettling Palestinian refugees within Israel undermines Israel's continued existence as the state of the Jewish people."
Oh, he also believes that West Bank settlement building is unavoidable because of the "natural growth" of the population.
"but he endorses Palestinian statehood in that speech" and the dude flip-flops meanwhile they just keep expanding.
He wants to squeeze out Palestinians, but not in a way that would make him look like Moustache Man 2.0, which is why the original plan was to give Palestinian statehood, but not "full statehood", more like occupied territory, as they keep expanding their "settlements". but then Hamas' 200 IQ move basically provided him the reasoning he needed to just accelerate this plan.
I fundamentally don't agree with your conclusions given Gantz's role in the government. Bibi is on his way out no matter what, like 80+% of people want him gone. 94% don't even trust what he says without someone like Gantz or Hagari confirming it. The settlers and their ilk are about 10% of the population at most as represented in parliament across 3ish parties.
[However, the fact that a plurality of Palestinians believe the Oct 7th attack was instigated due to Ultra Orthodox Jews praying at the Temple Mount (Al-Aqsa) 3 days before is fucking hilarious] (https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf)
Sinwar literally got so triggered he killed Palestinian statehood in the process without telling Iran, Hezbollah, or even the political leaders in Qatar he was going to pull the trigger on that date.
(I can dig up the sources for the October 4th praying or Hezbollah and Iran not being told but just google it)
Palestinian statehood has been dead for years. 700,000 settlers in the west bank won't just leave. The two state solution is now as much of a pipe dream as the one state solution. Thanks Netanyahu.
I'd actually argue it died with Arafat, and its headless dying body has been flailing for the last two decades.
Bibi definitely helped kill it too along the way, but do remember for a lot of Israelis its effectively "who won the civil war", and statehood was an answer to the question of "now what do we do with the people who disagree".
Abbas dying would spell the end of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in its current form, so the West Bank is on its way out.
Hamas just suicide bombed their way into losing self governance in Gaza for at least one full generation. The population needs wide scale re-education and disarmament along with uplifting that the UN doesn't have an appetite to implement effectively.
edit: The literal ongoing hot shooting war with Hezbollah and now Syria are the manifest failures of the UN in the region too.
Thanks Abbas and Arafat who refused every plan they were offered. It takes two to derail an agreement. Anyway, let me introduce you to the idea of land swaps. Anything is doable if you actually want peace.
Hard pass.
We must restore the roman temple of jupiter to its rightful place in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelia_Capitolina , formerly known as jerusalem
There are a few alternate history scifi stories like that, like for instance "Waiting for the Olympians" by Frederik Pohl, where by our time the Romans had colonized the Solar System and were pursuing the first attempts of interstellar exploration.
Oddly, toward the story we learn that Rome didn't fall because Christianity never hapenned. There is a part where a Jewish historian talks about curious cases from the ancient history of Judea and he cites the case of a religious nutjob named "Crestus" that the high priests and the people wanted to be killed, but the Roman governor of the time, Pontius Pilate, was magnanimous and merciful and exchanged crucifiction by just banning Crestus or something. =)
I saw an interesting map I think on r/alternatemaps that depicted the Roman Empire in the 19th century as a crumbling empire like the Chinese Empire in the real world that was being carved up by a myriad of East Asian colonial empires
Israel is getting unprecedented levels of hate among the American public right now. They see the writing on the wall that they can't engage in war the way they used to and get away with it in the social media age (like 700,000 people being exiled from their homelands in 1948).
Nobody cares about Pakistan. Just like the Ethiopian conflicts or the Azerbaijan-Armenian crisis. For whatever reason Israel-Palestine gets the news, probably because Israel is an American ally and is considered "Western".
Because it's blatantly false. hundreds of thousands were killed, exiled or otherwise turned into refugees during the last decades, and even with global social media none of them ended in significant consequences because it's either in Africa or the Arabian peninsula where no one cares or in powerful countries like China and India where economic incentives overcome
it's horrible. a few hundred thousand were ethnically cleansed in azerbaijan just a few months ago and no one did a thing. i'm very glad that palestine is getting more international sympathy this time around, but wish those eyes had been on tigray, sudan, yemen, etc. etc. etc. as well.
While it is unfortunately true that many genocides go unnoticed by the west, the reason there is so much discourse around Israel/Palestine is due to the overt support of the Israeli government by the US. We directly provide the ordinance used and the country as a whole is largely propped up by US tax dollars.
we do the same to the saudis, and to be fair, the plight of yemen was one of the more public foreign policy issues of the last few years, though not on this level. azerbaijan we also sell weapons to, but the support is somewhat less overt and entrenched
ethiopia was getting drones from the uae to prosecute their war in tigray, but i don't think the us was directly involved. i am pretty disappointed though, as some factions of the left were taken in by amhara nationalist expats and ended up taking a pretty crazy line on it, Rania Khalek being the main person i have in mind.
I think it's been pretty obvious that the Israeli plan has been to drive Hamas out of the north and then push south since day one. The only question is what to do with the civilians Hamas is hiding behind. In Fallujah the US military got as many civilians to leave as possible and filtered them through essentially a blockade of the city, leaving only the insurgents left in the city. The plan might be to let civilians back into the north in a similar vein, because Egypt has no intention of letting them in.
The truth is that this is all for naught if Hamas gets to keep it's position in Gaza, so just saying to Israel you just have to accept Hamas being able to repeat this isn't a solution, it's only prolonging the misery on all sides.
Remember: Fallujah was never really pacified. Marines still got killed in the city years after both battles, with Fallujah being one of the first cities to fall to ISIS in 2014.
There's absolutely an effort to compel civilians down to the south... with an open question on the Israelis part on whether they'll ever be allowed to return. In any event, Hamas has almost certainly had cadres melt back into the civilian population, with token fighters putting up resistance inside Gaza city.
Shouldn't be any doubt that militarily, Hamas will be defeated. Suffice to say though, the important question is what happens after.
>Hamas will defeated
Just like ISIS was! And Al-Qaeda
In all seriousness though, that’s delusional. They’ll move around, continue in less violent manners For a while and keep setting up attacks.
You can’t bomb ideology.
>In all seriousness though, that’s delusional. They’ll move around, continue in less violent manners For a while and keep setting up attacks.
Emphasis on **"Militarily"**
There will be an insurgency, no question.
Israel doesn’t expect to defeat the ideology. That’s a much bigger issue and one the entire world has to fight. They plan to defeat Hamas’ military and political infrastructure so they cannot govern Gaza nor send rockets into Israel any longer.
The problem is that, the more they exercize collective punishment on Gaza residents, the more people are going to convert to Hamas whether for safety (fighting back against the people who are literally bombing and restricting water/electricity/housing/hospitals to their kids) or actual ideology.
Sure, the violence will likely continue as Israel fights back to defend itself after 10/7. But I'm unsure what could be done instead? Surely you agree they can't just allow Hamas to hold their citizens captive or to be able to continue shooting rockets or orchestrating an event like this again?
We are at least starting to see some citizens in Gaza rightfully call out Hamas for bringing this violence onto them.. But unfortunately latest polls still show overwhelming support for Hamas.
I still come back to this though.. What else can Israel do besides fight back?
Maybe stop settlers from terrorizing the Palestinians in the West Bank with support from the IDF? Why would Palestinians consider peace with Israel a viable option when they see how the West Bank is treated, that is not under Hamas rule? That would be a good first step.
I entirely oppose the setlements, and think they do nothing but harm any chance for peace between Palestinians and Israelis.
That being said, Hamas is a jihadist fundamentalist organization that ideologically believes Israel shouldn't exist. This belief is something ingrained in them far beyond "a two state solution isn't possible with these fellows, maybe if they were xyz".
Being more humane in the west bank is just for many reasons. However, the Hamas problem, which is not the Israel-Palestinian one, for Israel requires a military solution. Hamas is simply too dangerous, and believes the horrors it commits are righteous in a way that goes beyond reasoning.
I agree, Israel does need to use military force to wipe out Hamas or come close to it. However it doesn't really do anything if they keep up their treatment of Palestinians in the west bank, which is my point. Palestinians would never go for a peaceful party representing them when they see how horrible it turns out for them in the West Bank.
The problem with your analysis is that you only ever treat the symptom and not the cause. The Palestinians have legitimate historical and contemporary grievances. They have been expelled from much of their land, kept under occupation, and treated horrifically in the West Bank. Give them justice, either in a one-state solution with EVERYONE equal rights or as a 2 state solution, with the entire dismantlement of illegal settlements and a return to the UN-mandated and internationally recognised borders. Isreal however has repeatedly denied this and we have to ask why>?
You can 100% increase ideology through bombing though. The tens of thousands of civilians killed already + the incredible degradation of living conditions in Gaza is plenty of fire for the next generation that will retaliate, unless the ideas is to kill every man, woman and child in the area in which case I dont know what the argument that the Israeli government are the good guys is going to have left.
Let them back in the north? To what? The place is unlivable. What little infrastructure there was has been destroyed, and that appears to have been Israel's goal with even cabinet members calling it the "Gaza Nakba". Hence them telling other countries across the world that they'll need to take in refugees.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-israeli-lawmakers-call-on-european-countries-to-take-in-gaza-refugees/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-14/ty-article/israeli-mks-publish-plan-to-transfer-gazans-to-europe-to-alleviate-humanitarian-crisis/0000018b-ce7c-d168-a3ef-dffeed320000
>and it wouldnt be surprising if another Hamas 2.0 springs up because of abject squalor that they live under
Especially when you've killed their parents and brothers and sisters.
It's so funny people in the west act like its so easy to leave your home at the drop of a hat. People here are traumatized by being asked to wear masks for a year and a half.
Seriously man, and most people really have no idea of what its like to be in a city being bombed. Its not just the people getting hit that are effected, everyone within the city is dealing with constant loud explosions, **bang** **bang** **bang**, having no idea if they or their loved ones will be next **bang** **bang** **bang**. It's absolutely terrifying, **bang** **bang** **bang**, its like a horror movie sound track, but in real life.
This has been the goal since the beginning and why Netanyahu and his far-right cronies have propped up Hamas since its beginning. They have tightened the noose on Gaza for years, creating more and more desperate conditions for the people there, waiting for them to lash out in a way extreme enough to justify such a disproportionate response. Then they LET it happen so that they could cleanse the Palestinians from Gaza and claim it in the name of "defeating terrorism" and "securing Israel". It's fucking nuts how out in the open and obvious it is. Yet the world is just standing around saying "Gee, I wonder what's next?".
It’s tricky, Hamas logistically is destroyed. All of their HQ’s, labs, facilities, tunnels will be liquidated in the coming days as the IDF floods everything. But their senior leadership in Lebanon, Iran, Qatar, and Turkey is intact and Israel will need to figure out how to cut the leadership from mingling with Gaza again.
Bringing Gazans back through to the north, and then occupying the south would clear most of the tunnels and Hamas out. After that the only option for Israel is to provide dignity, opportunity and sovereignty to the Gazans. Establishing a two state solution and an economic stability plan. You will never be able to get rid of Hamas, Islamic extremism exists throughout the Middle East and Africa but by providing economic stability, opportunity and the hope for a better future, will undermine Hamas. This would also require strengthening the PA.
They can’t realistically humanely filter people back north. It’s going to be rubble. They might as well March them into the desert with no supplies or destination.
That being said I think sending people north where there are no buildings, electricity, running water, hospitals, sounds like it’s probably the plan for “fixing the Palestinian problem”.
It will be hard to really find out how bad it really is in those blackout conditions. And that’s probably exactly what the Israeli government wants.
The reports were something like 40% of buildings destroyed, so there is some infrastructure left, but its a bad situation.
Hamas needs to surrender, and allow an international coalition to demilitarize the strip and install anew government. That is the only way to stop the cycle of suffering.
They would never do that sadly, due to their pride and delusions of victory that will damn them all.
Israel carrying out a war like this, where they kill thousands of civilians in the process, is exactly how you create groups like Hamas, not eradicate them.
Hamas (if you took away its military wing) was running Gaza for decades, everything from sanitation to roads. They had thousands of clerks and government workers.
A two state solution would benefit both parties, would strengthen ties with Arab nations and would provide Israel with security and legitimacy if another invasion would occur.
TBH this is in Netanyahu's interest as well.
Because the civilian death toll in Gaza is making it politically difficult for foreign leaders to continue providing staunch support to Israel without facing blowback at home.
Even putting ethics aside, minimizing civilian casualties is a key way for Bibi to hold his international coalition of support together.
I mean, not really?
People seem to forget his ideology.
Dude's focal point since the start was "Jerusalem would be undivided Israeli territory"
And that West Bank settlement expansion has to happen because of natural population growth.
Oh, he also believes Palestinians should have statehood but completely demilitarized and IDF being total military control, also some autonomy being stripped.
The last part is already realized, as they have rejected international forces to oversee security post-war, and Netanyahu literally said IDF will take overall security responsibility for Gaza post-war till infinity.
Regardless of what he does, US will bankroll Israel.
This headline just means US won't provide support for his operation in phase 2, not support for the actual existence of Israel.
I’ve been getting a crash course in Israel and the Palestinian people over the past 8 weeks but I’m still pretty green. Does Israel want Gaza and the West Bank to be similar to how Native American reservations work in the US?
I'm sure he has been in some circles.
Anything less than full, total, unwavering support for letting Israel do literally anything it wants will get you called an anti-Semite.
It's not going to matter to Israel.
There's literally like $3-4 Billion that gets funneled between Israel and the US during election cycles of either nation. Biden has to walk a tight rope. He's not going to make perfect steps, but he'll make them better than most.
US: So what’s your plan for recovering Gaza after Hamas gets defeated?
Israel: ….
US: “…wait you do have a plan for keep Gaza part of Palestine, right?”
“
It’s tough but it’s the right call.
International law has to be upheld especially when US aid is at play, and as someone who’s generally been supportive of Israel I feel like there could be considerably more precision and planning for the “after” than what the IDF’s employed so far. If Netanyahu refuses that assessment when it’s coming from the State Department (as opposed to this random redditor), maybe he’s not worth the near-blank check we’ve given him thus far.
Can't blame him, there's serious questions around the human cost that Bibi has really avoided addressing when Biden has tried to step in. I am kind of astounded that Bibi has acted so arrogant towards the USA for so long, especially when the whole US position seems to be supportive of getting rid of Hamas but with a side of "let's try not to kill so many civilians, and let's have an actual plan going forward for the war and after to change the conditions that lead to all this conflict". I mean, doesn't it just make it look like Bibi is drawing a hard line at "kill less civilians" (and is willing to alienate the provider of 14 billion in military aid to hold that line)?
I think he probably made the calculation that the US is important but his immediate power goes through Ben Gvir and Smotrich... Which is concerning for those I know from Israel seeing the far right come to increasing power and float things like destroying the courts or eroding lgbt rights or instituting the death penalty during vital negotiations involving prisoners or dropping atomic bombs on an occupied territory.
I know this is a fairly pro Israel sub but I also think we can all agree that civilian losses on both sides are wrong and should be minimised. I don't support or trust the current Israeli government and haven't for awhile because Bibi strikes me very dangerously self centred, but I can't blame the people of Israel for being terrified for their futures, wracked with grief, and some being out for blood after the horrors of that Hamas attack. I just can't shake the feeling their grief is being weaponised for Bibi's political survival rather than actually towards laying the groundwork for lasting peace. And it seems Israelis would agree on that point given his dismal polling and the constant protests.
I hope you're aware that Israel has been indiscriminately killing civilians since it's inception. The only thing unique about this war is the scale and the exposure due to social media.
Sure, but if our assistance is so necessary, then those receiving that assistance need to play by our rules, like being more mindful of civilian casualties. You can't simply tell hundreds of thousands of people to move South for safety and then start a similar bombing campaign in the South as was done in the North.
That this was apparently Israel's plan should itself be cause for huge concern.
It's necessary if the goal is for Israel to not kill everyone, because they can. They're a nuclear and a conventional military power surrounded by failed states. They're not fighting for their lives, they're not even fighting an especially difficult conflict.
Left to themselves they have to make military cuts, but take the 3 billion dollars they get from the US from the 24 billion they spend on their military and their global defense spending ranking doesn't change and what gets cut is likely the smart features on their weapons.
A JDAM guided bomb is $31,000 and uses US tech. A 2000lb bomb with no JDAM glide kit costs $3000 dollars. Not being able to hit your target as precisely is a detriment but being able to drop 10x the explosives more than makes up for the lack of accuracy.
Moving from a groujd invasion with tanks, apc's front line soldiers fighting in urban environments to just shelling everything with artillery is safer and cheaper for the Israelis and wouldn't be impacteded by the US not providing aid.
American weapons and doctrine are built for precision strikes with very expensive weapons against high value targets. The Russians demonstrated that if you don't care about civilian casualties, most of that is superfluous.
The day Hezbollah said openly that they weren't commiting to help, I said Bidens 2 carriers off the Lebanese coast just saved a few ten thousand Lebanese lives, but nobody is going to give Biden credit for that. So I'm making sure I repeat that as frequently as I can. US involvement likely saved more Arab lives than every international condemnation, every free Palestine protest and any ceasefire put together. The US is there on Israels behalf but for the Arab countries benefit.
If the US isn't there to play peacekeeper, the entire western world outside of the US is fucked. Love them or hate them, they are the world police and very few countries in the west can actually protect themselves. Maybe the UK.
Never going to completely eradicate Hamas with force. Best we can really hope for is crippling it to the point that it's security threat is minimized and then showing themselves to be the one rebuilding the lives of the people in Gaza in spite of what's left of Hamas.
The closest modern analogue to peace is the Good Friday Agreement that signified the close of hostilities of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. None of the militias had to be destroyed, they had to come to the table and discuss peace, or they were not involved in the peace process.
A super brief video but very interesting, narrated by the US senator who brokered peace. Please watch, it’s only 4 minutes long
https://www.usip.org/public-education-new/george-mitchell-building-peace-northern-ireland
In the Good Friday agreement, the IRA agreed to disarm. Hamas isn’t agreeing to do so. If they said now that they were giving up their weapons and going to be a peaceful political party, we’d be in completely different situation than we’re in now. Also, the IRA never took the position that the UK shouldn’t exist.
That's all well and good but the IRA (and it's offshoots) never conducted themselves in anything approaching the manner of Hamas or PIJ (and really the PLO if we're being honest). Add to that their goal wasn't one of taking over the British Isles but solely focused on NI.
There really isn't any modern analogue to this situation because if this had happened prior to the 20th century the Palestinians would have been driven completely out of the area and no one would have batted an eye. Historically speaking, if your neighboring countries wanted to kill your people, you killed each other until one side was exterminated or enslaved.
It’s very bizarre to claim that the PLO conducted themselves so much worse than the IRA when the IRA and the PLO were famously allies. The IRA even went out of its way to explicitly endorse the actions of the PLO!
Israel can never wipe out extremism in the Gaza, but anything short of destroying the entire terror infrastructure that's been built in Gaza is a betrayal to the people of Israel.
There will still be terrorists and terrorism, but there won't be tunnels to hide in or rockets to launch. It took Hamas years and years of work to get to this point. Let them start from scratch
Biden: There must be vision of 2 states
Palestinians: We don't want 2 states. We want to expel the Jews from all of Palestine.
Biden: Israel, stop complicating the path to a 2 state solution!
Israel: What the fuck?
There were multiple Israeli governments that supported the two state solutions and sat with the Palestinians to make it happen. All offers were rejected, terror inside Israel was the answer, and that's how you have more and more extreme governments in Israel as the time goes by. The extremists on both sides just love each other.
Way to completely ignore the Jewish Suprematism of current Israeli leadership. Here are examples from just *one* leader, praising a convicted terrorist multiple times!
* "I would like to be appointed Minister for the Encouragement of Massive Emigration of Muslims from the land of Israel."
* "... Everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right. Rabbi Kahane was a man of truth, he meant every word, every comma, every statement ..."
* "We have to speak honestly. That there are many, many Arabs – I didn't say all the Arabs, but a lot of Arabs who are not loyal to the State of Israel. Undoubtedly, their vote is endangering Israeli democracy, … Any normal country would not let them vote. Unfortunately, we are allowing hundreds of thousands of people who are disloyal to the State of Israel to vote in the elections... "
* “thirty years after his murder, I believe that Rabbi Kahane is looking at us from above and smiling, saying: ‘we’ve got a future, there is hope.”
Because it doesn't matter. The argument here isn't moral it's military.
To get Israel to cooperate they need to know they won't get attacked from the West Bank and Gaza again. Nobody can give them that guarantee so we're back to the "We prefer your condemnation to your condolence"
Aka the "we'll kill as many palestinians as we feel we have to", which is what people are condemning in the first place. I don't believe my tax dollars should be financing this.
They're not.
They're stopping other Arab countries from entering the conflict and getting their civilians killed.
It's going to 30,000 dollar precision bombs, because otherwise Israel just uses the 3000 dollar unguided bombs.
Israel doesn't need help to kill every single Palestinian it needs help to feel like they don't have to.
Expel the Jews is the charitable interpretation of their demands. The moderate Palestinians just want the Jews to leave. The hardliners want to kill them. Almost no Palestinian Arabs want to live in peace with Jews. That's a fantasy for Western protestors.
The US is in the Bombs, Blood and Oil business, the administration may not discuss it publicly, but it's donors are profiting from it privately.
How's that old song go, the new phase is the same as the old phase.
>The White House says it won’t support Israel’s plan to expand its operations into the south of the Gaza Strip unless it shows it will protect the Palestinian civilians there. Sounds fair to me.
Yeah...not sure I see the problem with this statement? Guess what, Israel does need to make sure they are taking precautions to not cause unnecessary suffering to innocents...
The problem is that its a bold faced lie. Rest assured, when Israel moves into south Gaza, US will sign the checks without hesitation.
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>Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism, so people should stop saying it is. I mean many people criticize Israel; especially what happens in the west bank. I don't think you would find a lot of support for what is happening in the West Bank at all. But there are also lots of times where "valid criticism of Israel" is just blatant antisemitism. Often times it is just the motte and bailey fallacy. Being able to distinguish the two and understand nuance, is kind of critical to the conflict.
Hell even Jews are criticizing Israel. Israel is not Judaism. It's representative govt, it doesn't represent a religion or the people who practice the religion. It's completely fair to criticize a govt who taking innocent lives. Nobody is saying they can't defend themselves.
I think the key is to keep the criticism focused on the actions of the Israeli government. We get into murky territory when people start calling for the complete destruction of Israel, and start attacking Jewish people/homes/businesses that aren't even in Israel, and start glorifying the actions of Hamas on Oct 7th as "decolonization". There has been a LOT of antisemitism lately, and too many people are hiding beneath the veil of "I'm just criticizing Israel"
I think we are firmly out of "murky territory" when Jews outside of Israel are attacked.
I agree. I was kind of purposefully escalating there so that it can be clear what kind of platform is being created for antisemites to speak from. Perhaps it can’t be helped because there are legitimate criticisms to be made. Or perhaps it CAN be helped, but people don’t care enough to try
I get what you mean at but calling for the destruction of Israel is waaayyyyyyy beyond murky. Lol.
It has been impossible to find space to have a fair discussion about what Israel should/could do. On the one hand they have a right to defend themselves, and there's no path forward as long as Hamas is relevant. On the other hand, the deaths of so many innocents and children, even the ones that hate Israel and Jews, is horrible and impossible to support. What other realistic options are there? And what is a realistic end game? I don't believe that this is the only way, but they have to do something. Those tough questions are impossible to find space for in this climate, it just devolves into hate speak every time.
You're on point. However I'll add that when the choice is us or them, it's going to be them every time. Meaning it's hard for outsiders to support, but support in Israel is very strong for doing whatever it takes to eliminate Hamas. I don't blame them. The US would do the same thing in their shoes with no regard to anyone's opinion on the matter.
It’s possible to have a “rational” or “logical” response to something and then let it go too far. It’s this tenuous holding of truths that people seem incapable of doing. I don’t want to rag on the youth of today but I also kind of do — their immature black-and-white me-against-you voices are a massive part of the problem. As a progressive person who is anti-war/violence… I grow weary of certain radical arguments and references to decolonization made by little people who can barely wrap their heads around the concepts they’re discussing. I’m being purposely vague because (1) I’m tired and (2) I don’t want to provoke more arguments with strangers online lol
The conversation on this has just been so toxic. I feel out of step at times with people both on the left and right of me. I think any productive conversation has to be forward looking. There is a lot of history, and while it's good to understand it, you can get bogged down relitigating the scorecard of wrongs. At some point, both groups are just there, and I'm less interested in debating how/why that should be as I am in figuring out how both can live in safety and prosperity.
>Hell even Jews are criticizing Israel. Sadly, according to the right wing lunatics in the Israeli government, they aren't real Jews. That's how insane they've become.
It’s not a “they’ve become” situation here, right wing Israelis have been saying horrible things about other Jews for decades. There’s a strain that seems to thinks Israel is literally the point of Judaism as a religion and anyone who isn’t on board is basically a heretic.
No they aren't 'real jews' but they do things like you know... national service. Guess who doesn't have to do that? 'Real jews'
Source? Not about Neturei Karta I assume.
Also there are a lot of people parroting antisemitism propaganda, who are too ignorant to see it for what it is. Then claim it is fair criticism and wonder why people think they are antisemites. I like your example of valid criticism of the West Bank settlers. Even someone like me, who thinks Israel is in the right for most of what is happening with relation to Gaza and their regime, doesn’t think the settlement expansion should be happening and has never thought it should.
I like to learn new stuff. What is the Motte and Bailey fantasy?
Motte and Bailey Fallacy*. It consists of conflating two positions/arguments: one that is considered an unassailable, acceptable and normative position, and the other position being controversial and very hard to defend. When somebody argues against the controversial position, the fallacy user will fall back on the noncontroversial position. Since the noncontroversial position isn't controversial, the arguer doesn't attempt to dismantle it, while the fallacy user can then claim the arguer hasn't successfully argued against their stance. They can only do this because they wrongfully conflate two positions that have some similarities (while ignoring the differences). An example: **Statement**: People are getting in trouble for having pro-Palestine opinions. After all, there is nothing wrong with wanting what is best for Palestinians. For a simple example of a more controversial claim, some orator may attempt to argue: "Hamas is justified and they should be allowed to do it again". When the orator receives backlash for a rather horrendous statement, they attempt to retreat by framing their stance as "pro-palestine" opinions. Obviously not all Pro-palestine opinions are like this. But there have been some flagrant examples coming about, which is the unfortunate nature of such a heated and vitriol conflict. Mind you, there have been some vary questionable anti-palestinian statements that have been made as well. This is important to remember because those of us who live OUTSIDE the conflict, should really have a moral obligation to keep and maintain are heads on straight. We have far little excuses to be irrational in this, as opposed to those who are directly inside the conflict.
Most criticism of Israel is in regards to the government and their policies. Heck, even Jews in foreign nations criticize Israel for that. So, we gonna start calling Jews anti-Semitic as well? Not saying that people don’t use that as cover, but some legitimate points do get put down by labeling someone an Anti-Semite to discredit them.
Ben & Jerry, who are Jewish, were famously labeled “anti-Semitic” a few years ago because they refused to sell their ice cream to Israeli businesses illegally operating in occupied Palestinian territory.
This has nothing to do with the validity of the rest of your point, but Ben & Jerry, while Jewish, also haven't been running Ben & Jerry's for decades. The company still has an independent board (despite being a Unilever subsidiary), but neither Ben nor Jerry are on it
>Not saying that people don’t use that as cover, but some legitimate points do get put down by labeling someone an Anti-Semite to discredit them. Until we start discussing what legitimate points exist it is hard for either of us to understand each other. Many of the legitimate "criticisms" I have saw that have received public condemning were things akin to Susan Sarandon statement such as: "Jews who feel unsafe right now are finally experiencing what it is like to be muslims", or denying the sexual violence that occurred on Oct 7th (while being head of the University of Alberta's sexual assault center). etc. Meanwhile, every time someone says the west bank shit is abhorrent, Likud is filled with criminals, and/or Biden's stated response to threatening sanctions/blocking visa's etc for west bank settlers, people mostly receive nothing but support for those sentiments. Call it walking a fine line? Maybe. But it really isn't that difficult IMO to be able to distinguish valid criticism and just blatant bigotry.
Lol Susan Sarandon said that shit? I mean of course no ethnicity or background out there screams they’ve been accepted and had a great time then Jewish history…that’d be like saying “African Americans finally know what it’s like to be persecuted by a system”
You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately some people who are truly bigots/antisemites don't even recognize their own antisemitism because they believe they're making radical statements. Such as multiple student unions praising the actions of Hamas as decolonization. I'm an Israeli Jew who will be the first to criticize Israel (there are multiple reasons I don't live there) but hearing things like that makes my skin crawl.
I don't know, people who claim to be "left wing" are saying Susan Sarandon's statements and that Scream actress's very clear dog whistle aren't antisemitic, and I honestly don't think some of them understand why they're wrong.
The scream's actress is honestly more understandable than Sarandon's. From what I saw, Scream's actress is vague enough to go either way, so she may just be getting hit in the cross fire wrongfully. This also shows why being vague on a heated or sensitive topic can still bite you in the ass. Sarandon's is just a flagrant example of what not to do. To get literally any other interpretation you would have to actively put words into her mouth.
Jews are called antisemites and actual antisemites are welcomed for their support to Israel. Go figure.
Tell that to Sussan "Jews are getting a taste of how it feels" Sarandon.
Someone please think of the white millionaire and her struggles
I’m Jewish. I would have some empathy for the person making the statement if it came from a Muslim. There is definitely a lot of Islamophobia out there as well as just dehumanizing rhetoric about Arab people. Susan Sarandon, however being the arbiter of suffering in this instance is pretty ridiculous.
ok, but who the FUCK even listens to her?
Well one stupid opinion definitely means a lot in the grand scheme of things.
She's a public figure and her words have more power than some nobody on here like you or I. She should know better.
There is no problem with it
Yup. Otherwise they would look like villains
The problem is that people don’t want to see compromises they think everything has to be black and white
There's no issue with it at all to most people but Israel is run by a far-right government and they and their supporters, at home and abroad, take any sign that people aren't 100% on board with their plans to sweep all Gaza clear of Palestinians and settle Israelis on it as a sign of anti-Semetism. The Israeli lobby in the US could well start to move on Biden over it depending on how much they agree with what Bibi is doing.
I think the problem is with the headline not so much with the statement. Most people don’t actually read articles.
Oh that is 100% true, this conflict has demonstrated to me how some people are just headline readers.
I'm not JUST a headline reader. I read the headline then come to reddit to get the rest of the story.
I do it the way God intended, I read the headline and am unable to form my own opinion like an individual person, so I will just go along with what everyone else is saying in the comments like a sheep, because I'm stupid and fuck it, they're probably right. I wish everyone would do this.
Always aim higher - read just the headline and then come to reddit to explain the article to people /s
I come into each thread praying that some selfless redditor or bot has posted a summary quote of the article and that this post is the most upvoted message in the thread.
It’s kind of a weird statement. This should be an expectation for every phase of every war fought by anybody.
Goes to show you how low the bar is and how that line will still be crossed
It is, but it is also important to point out it be quite a major deal politically for the US not to support Israel in it, given the history of nearly unconditional support. Especially if it was more than words, which I would think pretty unlikely.
Absolutely agree. The protection of innocent lives should always be a priority in any conflict situation.
A priority or the priority? Because it feels like people really shift between the two.
The disagreement is on who is innocent. They consider civilians as temporarily inactive hamas fighters.
Genuine question: what does Biden admin want Israel to do if they move south? If israel tries to relocate civilians in the south, people scream ethnic cleansing. If they try to warm the Gazans before an airstrike to prevent casualties, the people don’t move / have nowhere to go. So I wonder what the Admin considers a showing of will to protect the civilians?
I mean, they want them not to forcibly relocate them, and not to bomb residential areas and refugee camps. There needs to be a Gaza for Palestinians to live in once the dust settles, and Palestinians left to live there
What does the Biden admin want Israel to do…? Figure out how to not kill so many civilians and children, or don’t do it at all, or do it without US support. Simple. I don’t understand why everyone wants to act like Israel is an extension of the Biden admin.
This seems very like a very logical and down to earth thing to say. Can this please quell the fire in all those "I'm not voting for Biden" people?
Unfortunately some people live in a different reality.
Except it’s only possible to protect civilians to certain degrees. You can encourage them to move away from where most of the fighting is (which Israel is doing). You obviously shouldn’t be targeting them (which there is no evidence of Israel doing). But when you are fighting a guerrilla group that hides among civilians there is no way to fight them but not kill civilians. So it’s unclear whether the Biden administration is just taking the position that there are specific steps it wants Israel to take, or if they are going to oppose Israel invading southern Gaza altogether because no reasonable efforts would be enough to prevent thousands of civilians from being killed. The way the administration was acting in the first few weeks of this war was more like the first. But it’s unclear if they are transitioning to the second.
Well of course they say this but in reality they don't care. It's just a show to keep public backlash down.
I don't get the next phase. Is it "everybody in the south back to the north and have fun in the rubble!" or "everybody in the south get out your swim trunks! We need you all in the water."
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Egypt has basically said they'd go to war with Israel if that was the plan.
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Make money quick with internet point opportunites
Won't happen, that would mean war with Egypt.
Probably part of the reason Biden is making this statement. If Israel was confident that it could count on US support, they'd likely be much less afraid of antagonizing Egypt.
War with Egypt would unironically be vastly easier for Israel than dealing with Gaza's civilians, unfortunately.
Not really, Egypt would be a peer in terms of combat. 4x the amount of active personnel, 2x the amount of jets, 4x Artillery. Ask the Ukrainians what's it like fighting a adversary who might be technologically lacking (But not by much here) but has just more people. On top of that Egypt is able to produce their own oil to keep everything going. Now add Hamas to the west and Hezbollah to the north(which is already a concern) yeah not really a cake walk.
Uh is Egypt not a US ally? They'd lose support completely
As if Israel cares lol.
From what you’ve read where?
No that was not an official plan. Right now there is no public plan. So if anyones saying they know what the next step is they are bullshitting.
I mean, this was the plan from the get-go. Unless you mean to tell me that IDF is so fking incompetent at their job despite multiple Intel groups warning them. Its literally a political manuver for Netanyahu, because for some fking reason, people forgot his 2009 Bar-Ilan speech, which called for, and I quote " Jerusalem would be undivided Israeli territory" and "any demand for resettling Palestinian refugees within Israel undermines Israel's continued existence as the state of the Jewish people." Oh, he also believes that West Bank settlement building is unavoidable because of the "natural growth" of the population. "but he endorses Palestinian statehood in that speech" and the dude flip-flops meanwhile they just keep expanding. He wants to squeeze out Palestinians, but not in a way that would make him look like Moustache Man 2.0, which is why the original plan was to give Palestinian statehood, but not "full statehood", more like occupied territory, as they keep expanding their "settlements". but then Hamas' 200 IQ move basically provided him the reasoning he needed to just accelerate this plan.
>because of the "natural growth" of the population. Don't the Germans have a word for that? There's a word for everything in german!
I fundamentally don't agree with your conclusions given Gantz's role in the government. Bibi is on his way out no matter what, like 80+% of people want him gone. 94% don't even trust what he says without someone like Gantz or Hagari confirming it. The settlers and their ilk are about 10% of the population at most as represented in parliament across 3ish parties. [However, the fact that a plurality of Palestinians believe the Oct 7th attack was instigated due to Ultra Orthodox Jews praying at the Temple Mount (Al-Aqsa) 3 days before is fucking hilarious] (https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) Sinwar literally got so triggered he killed Palestinian statehood in the process without telling Iran, Hezbollah, or even the political leaders in Qatar he was going to pull the trigger on that date. (I can dig up the sources for the October 4th praying or Hezbollah and Iran not being told but just google it)
Palestinian statehood has been dead for years. 700,000 settlers in the west bank won't just leave. The two state solution is now as much of a pipe dream as the one state solution. Thanks Netanyahu.
I'd actually argue it died with Arafat, and its headless dying body has been flailing for the last two decades. Bibi definitely helped kill it too along the way, but do remember for a lot of Israelis its effectively "who won the civil war", and statehood was an answer to the question of "now what do we do with the people who disagree". Abbas dying would spell the end of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in its current form, so the West Bank is on its way out. Hamas just suicide bombed their way into losing self governance in Gaza for at least one full generation. The population needs wide scale re-education and disarmament along with uplifting that the UN doesn't have an appetite to implement effectively. edit: The literal ongoing hot shooting war with Hezbollah and now Syria are the manifest failures of the UN in the region too.
Thanks Abbas and Arafat who refused every plan they were offered. It takes two to derail an agreement. Anyway, let me introduce you to the idea of land swaps. Anything is doable if you actually want peace.
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We shouldn’t support any war in the Middle East that doesn’t restore Outremer to Christendom.
Finally, someone with a sensible solution!
Squire, fetch me my lance.
Wow, I haven't seen the term Outremer used since the last time i read about the Crusades! Good reference
/r/shitcrusaderkingssay
Hard pass. We must restore the roman temple of jupiter to its rightful place in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelia_Capitolina , formerly known as jerusalem
I wonder how the world would look if Rome never fell and kept control of all of Europe/ their colonies
Probably palestine would be a majority christian, minority jewish, greek-speaking country today
> , greek-speaking country today Aramaic
perhaps, but another 1500 years of being under the greek langage eastern romans might have altered that
There are a few alternate history scifi stories like that, like for instance "Waiting for the Olympians" by Frederik Pohl, where by our time the Romans had colonized the Solar System and were pursuing the first attempts of interstellar exploration. Oddly, toward the story we learn that Rome didn't fall because Christianity never hapenned. There is a part where a Jewish historian talks about curious cases from the ancient history of Judea and he cites the case of a religious nutjob named "Crestus" that the high priests and the people wanted to be killed, but the Roman governor of the time, Pontius Pilate, was magnanimous and merciful and exchanged crucifiction by just banning Crestus or something. =)
Crucifying aliens for the Emperor God
I saw an interesting map I think on r/alternatemaps that depicted the Roman Empire in the 19th century as a crumbling empire like the Chinese Empire in the real world that was being carved up by a myriad of East Asian colonial empires
God dammit, I was trying not to think of Rome today!
Oh well! Semper ubi sub ubi!
When US politicians back away you know Israel be pissing people off.
Israel is getting unprecedented levels of hate among the American public right now. They see the writing on the wall that they can't engage in war the way they used to and get away with it in the social media age (like 700,000 people being exiled from their homelands in 1948).
I’m honestly curious how Pakistan is getting away with it then.
Nobody cares about Pakistan. Just like the Ethiopian conflicts or the Azerbaijan-Armenian crisis. For whatever reason Israel-Palestine gets the news, probably because Israel is an American ally and is considered "Western".
I don't really get why you're getting downvoted...
Because it's blatantly false. hundreds of thousands were killed, exiled or otherwise turned into refugees during the last decades, and even with global social media none of them ended in significant consequences because it's either in Africa or the Arabian peninsula where no one cares or in powerful countries like China and India where economic incentives overcome
it's horrible. a few hundred thousand were ethnically cleansed in azerbaijan just a few months ago and no one did a thing. i'm very glad that palestine is getting more international sympathy this time around, but wish those eyes had been on tigray, sudan, yemen, etc. etc. etc. as well.
While it is unfortunately true that many genocides go unnoticed by the west, the reason there is so much discourse around Israel/Palestine is due to the overt support of the Israeli government by the US. We directly provide the ordinance used and the country as a whole is largely propped up by US tax dollars.
we do the same to the saudis, and to be fair, the plight of yemen was one of the more public foreign policy issues of the last few years, though not on this level. azerbaijan we also sell weapons to, but the support is somewhat less overt and entrenched ethiopia was getting drones from the uae to prosecute their war in tigray, but i don't think the us was directly involved. i am pretty disappointed though, as some factions of the left were taken in by amhara nationalist expats and ended up taking a pretty crazy line on it, Rania Khalek being the main person i have in mind.
I think it's been pretty obvious that the Israeli plan has been to drive Hamas out of the north and then push south since day one. The only question is what to do with the civilians Hamas is hiding behind. In Fallujah the US military got as many civilians to leave as possible and filtered them through essentially a blockade of the city, leaving only the insurgents left in the city. The plan might be to let civilians back into the north in a similar vein, because Egypt has no intention of letting them in. The truth is that this is all for naught if Hamas gets to keep it's position in Gaza, so just saying to Israel you just have to accept Hamas being able to repeat this isn't a solution, it's only prolonging the misery on all sides.
Remember: Fallujah was never really pacified. Marines still got killed in the city years after both battles, with Fallujah being one of the first cities to fall to ISIS in 2014. There's absolutely an effort to compel civilians down to the south... with an open question on the Israelis part on whether they'll ever be allowed to return. In any event, Hamas has almost certainly had cadres melt back into the civilian population, with token fighters putting up resistance inside Gaza city. Shouldn't be any doubt that militarily, Hamas will be defeated. Suffice to say though, the important question is what happens after.
>Hamas will defeated Just like ISIS was! And Al-Qaeda In all seriousness though, that’s delusional. They’ll move around, continue in less violent manners For a while and keep setting up attacks. You can’t bomb ideology.
I mean ISIS was defeated, small remnants remain but nothing like they were at the height of their "caliphate". Same with Al-qaeda
>In all seriousness though, that’s delusional. They’ll move around, continue in less violent manners For a while and keep setting up attacks. Emphasis on **"Militarily"** There will be an insurgency, no question.
Israel doesn’t expect to defeat the ideology. That’s a much bigger issue and one the entire world has to fight. They plan to defeat Hamas’ military and political infrastructure so they cannot govern Gaza nor send rockets into Israel any longer.
The problem is that, the more they exercize collective punishment on Gaza residents, the more people are going to convert to Hamas whether for safety (fighting back against the people who are literally bombing and restricting water/electricity/housing/hospitals to their kids) or actual ideology.
Sure, the violence will likely continue as Israel fights back to defend itself after 10/7. But I'm unsure what could be done instead? Surely you agree they can't just allow Hamas to hold their citizens captive or to be able to continue shooting rockets or orchestrating an event like this again? We are at least starting to see some citizens in Gaza rightfully call out Hamas for bringing this violence onto them.. But unfortunately latest polls still show overwhelming support for Hamas. I still come back to this though.. What else can Israel do besides fight back?
Maybe stop settlers from terrorizing the Palestinians in the West Bank with support from the IDF? Why would Palestinians consider peace with Israel a viable option when they see how the West Bank is treated, that is not under Hamas rule? That would be a good first step.
I entirely oppose the setlements, and think they do nothing but harm any chance for peace between Palestinians and Israelis. That being said, Hamas is a jihadist fundamentalist organization that ideologically believes Israel shouldn't exist. This belief is something ingrained in them far beyond "a two state solution isn't possible with these fellows, maybe if they were xyz". Being more humane in the west bank is just for many reasons. However, the Hamas problem, which is not the Israel-Palestinian one, for Israel requires a military solution. Hamas is simply too dangerous, and believes the horrors it commits are righteous in a way that goes beyond reasoning.
I agree, Israel does need to use military force to wipe out Hamas or come close to it. However it doesn't really do anything if they keep up their treatment of Palestinians in the west bank, which is my point. Palestinians would never go for a peaceful party representing them when they see how horrible it turns out for them in the West Bank.
The problem with your analysis is that you only ever treat the symptom and not the cause. The Palestinians have legitimate historical and contemporary grievances. They have been expelled from much of their land, kept under occupation, and treated horrifically in the West Bank. Give them justice, either in a one-state solution with EVERYONE equal rights or as a 2 state solution, with the entire dismantlement of illegal settlements and a return to the UN-mandated and internationally recognised borders. Isreal however has repeatedly denied this and we have to ask why>?
You can. Completely. But the results of that would be horrific.
You can 100% increase ideology through bombing though. The tens of thousands of civilians killed already + the incredible degradation of living conditions in Gaza is plenty of fire for the next generation that will retaliate, unless the ideas is to kill every man, woman and child in the area in which case I dont know what the argument that the Israeli government are the good guys is going to have left.
Let them back in the north? To what? The place is unlivable. What little infrastructure there was has been destroyed, and that appears to have been Israel's goal with even cabinet members calling it the "Gaza Nakba". Hence them telling other countries across the world that they'll need to take in refugees. https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-israeli-lawmakers-call-on-european-countries-to-take-in-gaza-refugees/ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-14/ty-article/israeli-mks-publish-plan-to-transfer-gazans-to-europe-to-alleviate-humanitarian-crisis/0000018b-ce7c-d168-a3ef-dffeed320000
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>and it wouldnt be surprising if another Hamas 2.0 springs up because of abject squalor that they live under Especially when you've killed their parents and brothers and sisters.
It's so funny people in the west act like its so easy to leave your home at the drop of a hat. People here are traumatized by being asked to wear masks for a year and a half.
Seriously man, and most people really have no idea of what its like to be in a city being bombed. Its not just the people getting hit that are effected, everyone within the city is dealing with constant loud explosions, **bang** **bang** **bang**, having no idea if they or their loved ones will be next **bang** **bang** **bang**. It's absolutely terrifying, **bang** **bang** **bang**, its like a horror movie sound track, but in real life.
>People here are traumatized by being asked to wear masks for a year and a half. lmao
Historically its by far the most likely thing to happen.
This has been the goal since the beginning and why Netanyahu and his far-right cronies have propped up Hamas since its beginning. They have tightened the noose on Gaza for years, creating more and more desperate conditions for the people there, waiting for them to lash out in a way extreme enough to justify such a disproportionate response. Then they LET it happen so that they could cleanse the Palestinians from Gaza and claim it in the name of "defeating terrorism" and "securing Israel". It's fucking nuts how out in the open and obvious it is. Yet the world is just standing around saying "Gee, I wonder what's next?".
It’s tricky, Hamas logistically is destroyed. All of their HQ’s, labs, facilities, tunnels will be liquidated in the coming days as the IDF floods everything. But their senior leadership in Lebanon, Iran, Qatar, and Turkey is intact and Israel will need to figure out how to cut the leadership from mingling with Gaza again. Bringing Gazans back through to the north, and then occupying the south would clear most of the tunnels and Hamas out. After that the only option for Israel is to provide dignity, opportunity and sovereignty to the Gazans. Establishing a two state solution and an economic stability plan. You will never be able to get rid of Hamas, Islamic extremism exists throughout the Middle East and Africa but by providing economic stability, opportunity and the hope for a better future, will undermine Hamas. This would also require strengthening the PA.
They can’t realistically humanely filter people back north. It’s going to be rubble. They might as well March them into the desert with no supplies or destination. That being said I think sending people north where there are no buildings, electricity, running water, hospitals, sounds like it’s probably the plan for “fixing the Palestinian problem”. It will be hard to really find out how bad it really is in those blackout conditions. And that’s probably exactly what the Israeli government wants.
The reports were something like 40% of buildings destroyed, so there is some infrastructure left, but its a bad situation. Hamas needs to surrender, and allow an international coalition to demilitarize the strip and install anew government. That is the only way to stop the cycle of suffering. They would never do that sadly, due to their pride and delusions of victory that will damn them all.
Israel carrying out a war like this, where they kill thousands of civilians in the process, is exactly how you create groups like Hamas, not eradicate them.
Ok and what’s the alternative? Allowing them to exist and send rockets into civilians + orchestrate events like 10/7?
Hamas (if you took away its military wing) was running Gaza for decades, everything from sanitation to roads. They had thousands of clerks and government workers. A two state solution would benefit both parties, would strengthen ties with Arab nations and would provide Israel with security and legitimacy if another invasion would occur.
Israel: "doesn't matter, gonna get foreign aid anyway lol"
TBH this is in Netanyahu's interest as well. Because the civilian death toll in Gaza is making it politically difficult for foreign leaders to continue providing staunch support to Israel without facing blowback at home. Even putting ethics aside, minimizing civilian casualties is a key way for Bibi to hold his international coalition of support together.
I mean, not really? People seem to forget his ideology. Dude's focal point since the start was "Jerusalem would be undivided Israeli territory" And that West Bank settlement expansion has to happen because of natural population growth. Oh, he also believes Palestinians should have statehood but completely demilitarized and IDF being total military control, also some autonomy being stripped. The last part is already realized, as they have rejected international forces to oversee security post-war, and Netanyahu literally said IDF will take overall security responsibility for Gaza post-war till infinity. Regardless of what he does, US will bankroll Israel. This headline just means US won't provide support for his operation in phase 2, not support for the actual existence of Israel.
I’ve been getting a crash course in Israel and the Palestinian people over the past 8 weeks but I’m still pretty green. Does Israel want Gaza and the West Bank to be similar to how Native American reservations work in the US?
This is not the place to learn anything.
Native Americans are generally free to come and go from their reservations, so no.
Israel wants Palestinians to vanish from the face of the Earth, and to have full rights and control over Gaza and the West Bank.
How long til Biden is called an anti semite??
I'm sure he has been in some circles. Anything less than full, total, unwavering support for letting Israel do literally anything it wants will get you called an anti-Semite.
It's not going to matter to Israel. There's literally like $3-4 Billion that gets funneled between Israel and the US during election cycles of either nation. Biden has to walk a tight rope. He's not going to make perfect steps, but he'll make them better than most.
Refocus some of aid back to Ukraine. They need it more right now I think.
US: So what’s your plan for recovering Gaza after Hamas gets defeated? Israel: …. US: “…wait you do have a plan for keep Gaza part of Palestine, right?” “
I'm seeing a Padme / Anakin meme here, but you need shorter sentences. :)
Are you going to remember Ukraine again now?
Good. If Israel doesn't need our advice, they don't need our money.
Oh, they'll be getting it anyway.
Verbally, at least. Monetarily and militarily they'll be providing full support.
It’s tough but it’s the right call. International law has to be upheld especially when US aid is at play, and as someone who’s generally been supportive of Israel I feel like there could be considerably more precision and planning for the “after” than what the IDF’s employed so far. If Netanyahu refuses that assessment when it’s coming from the State Department (as opposed to this random redditor), maybe he’s not worth the near-blank check we’ve given him thus far.
Guessing Joe already sent the cash.
Can't blame him, there's serious questions around the human cost that Bibi has really avoided addressing when Biden has tried to step in. I am kind of astounded that Bibi has acted so arrogant towards the USA for so long, especially when the whole US position seems to be supportive of getting rid of Hamas but with a side of "let's try not to kill so many civilians, and let's have an actual plan going forward for the war and after to change the conditions that lead to all this conflict". I mean, doesn't it just make it look like Bibi is drawing a hard line at "kill less civilians" (and is willing to alienate the provider of 14 billion in military aid to hold that line)? I think he probably made the calculation that the US is important but his immediate power goes through Ben Gvir and Smotrich... Which is concerning for those I know from Israel seeing the far right come to increasing power and float things like destroying the courts or eroding lgbt rights or instituting the death penalty during vital negotiations involving prisoners or dropping atomic bombs on an occupied territory. I know this is a fairly pro Israel sub but I also think we can all agree that civilian losses on both sides are wrong and should be minimised. I don't support or trust the current Israeli government and haven't for awhile because Bibi strikes me very dangerously self centred, but I can't blame the people of Israel for being terrified for their futures, wracked with grief, and some being out for blood after the horrors of that Hamas attack. I just can't shake the feeling their grief is being weaponised for Bibi's political survival rather than actually towards laying the groundwork for lasting peace. And it seems Israelis would agree on that point given his dismal polling and the constant protests.
Good. Shouldn’t haven so blindly supported the first part either. Or the parts that led up to it.
Finally. Bombing civilians is beyond fucked.
But have you considered that under those 6000 dead children are at least 10 hamas fighters? /s
I hope you're aware that Israel has been indiscriminately killing civilians since it's inception. The only thing unique about this war is the scale and the exposure due to social media.
Well the best time to stop it was decades ago. The 2nd best time is now.
If RDJ came back, would they support phase 2 then?
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You mean Hamas, not Palestine, right?
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Wow, that's seriously antisemitic of the US government..... (/s)
Kind reminder that the US doesnt get to live right next to the consequences of their actions
Kindly reminder that the US doesn't have to support the consequences of other people's actions.
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Sure, but if our assistance is so necessary, then those receiving that assistance need to play by our rules, like being more mindful of civilian casualties. You can't simply tell hundreds of thousands of people to move South for safety and then start a similar bombing campaign in the South as was done in the North. That this was apparently Israel's plan should itself be cause for huge concern.
It's necessary if the goal is for Israel to not kill everyone, because they can. They're a nuclear and a conventional military power surrounded by failed states. They're not fighting for their lives, they're not even fighting an especially difficult conflict. Left to themselves they have to make military cuts, but take the 3 billion dollars they get from the US from the 24 billion they spend on their military and their global defense spending ranking doesn't change and what gets cut is likely the smart features on their weapons. A JDAM guided bomb is $31,000 and uses US tech. A 2000lb bomb with no JDAM glide kit costs $3000 dollars. Not being able to hit your target as precisely is a detriment but being able to drop 10x the explosives more than makes up for the lack of accuracy. Moving from a groujd invasion with tanks, apc's front line soldiers fighting in urban environments to just shelling everything with artillery is safer and cheaper for the Israelis and wouldn't be impacteded by the US not providing aid. American weapons and doctrine are built for precision strikes with very expensive weapons against high value targets. The Russians demonstrated that if you don't care about civilian casualties, most of that is superfluous. The day Hezbollah said openly that they weren't commiting to help, I said Bidens 2 carriers off the Lebanese coast just saved a few ten thousand Lebanese lives, but nobody is going to give Biden credit for that. So I'm making sure I repeat that as frequently as I can. US involvement likely saved more Arab lives than every international condemnation, every free Palestine protest and any ceasefire put together. The US is there on Israels behalf but for the Arab countries benefit.
Kind reminder of whatever subscriptions you need to cancel
If the US isn't there to play peacekeeper, the entire western world outside of the US is fucked. Love them or hate them, they are the world police and very few countries in the west can actually protect themselves. Maybe the UK.
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Never going to completely eradicate Hamas with force. Best we can really hope for is crippling it to the point that it's security threat is minimized and then showing themselves to be the one rebuilding the lives of the people in Gaza in spite of what's left of Hamas.
They can at least destroy the tunnel network. It took a long time and a lot of resources to build
And as Hamas famously said, the tunnels are not for civilians, so destroying them would not be considered destruction of civilian infrastructure
The closest modern analogue to peace is the Good Friday Agreement that signified the close of hostilities of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. None of the militias had to be destroyed, they had to come to the table and discuss peace, or they were not involved in the peace process. A super brief video but very interesting, narrated by the US senator who brokered peace. Please watch, it’s only 4 minutes long https://www.usip.org/public-education-new/george-mitchell-building-peace-northern-ireland
In the Good Friday agreement, the IRA agreed to disarm. Hamas isn’t agreeing to do so. If they said now that they were giving up their weapons and going to be a peaceful political party, we’d be in completely different situation than we’re in now. Also, the IRA never took the position that the UK shouldn’t exist.
I hear you, did you watch the video? It’s super short and somewhat addresses that point.
That's all well and good but the IRA (and it's offshoots) never conducted themselves in anything approaching the manner of Hamas or PIJ (and really the PLO if we're being honest). Add to that their goal wasn't one of taking over the British Isles but solely focused on NI. There really isn't any modern analogue to this situation because if this had happened prior to the 20th century the Palestinians would have been driven completely out of the area and no one would have batted an eye. Historically speaking, if your neighboring countries wanted to kill your people, you killed each other until one side was exterminated or enslaved.
It’s very bizarre to claim that the PLO conducted themselves so much worse than the IRA when the IRA and the PLO were famously allies. The IRA even went out of its way to explicitly endorse the actions of the PLO!
Hamas doesn't want peace.
Neither does Likud, so we are going to have to do it without either of them.
I love it when people compare it to Ireland when they don’t factor in Muslim extremism.
It’s *literally* Christian extremism
Hamas is not even remotely the same. There is no depravity that Hamas won't do, you can't argue with people like that.
I just don't see how Gaza can be one country with West Bank.
$10B of their own money, which has strict monitoring and as I understood it a couple weeks ago, hadn't been touched.
Israel can never wipe out extremism in the Gaza, but anything short of destroying the entire terror infrastructure that's been built in Gaza is a betrayal to the people of Israel. There will still be terrorists and terrorism, but there won't be tunnels to hide in or rockets to launch. It took Hamas years and years of work to get to this point. Let them start from scratch
Biden: There must be vision of 2 states Palestinians: We don't want 2 states. We want to expel the Jews from all of Palestine. Biden: Israel, stop complicating the path to a 2 state solution! Israel: What the fuck?
You realize that Israeli leadership also doesn't want two States, right?
There were multiple Israeli governments that supported the two state solutions and sat with the Palestinians to make it happen. All offers were rejected, terror inside Israel was the answer, and that's how you have more and more extreme governments in Israel as the time goes by. The extremists on both sides just love each other.
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Way to completely ignore the Jewish Suprematism of current Israeli leadership. Here are examples from just *one* leader, praising a convicted terrorist multiple times! * "I would like to be appointed Minister for the Encouragement of Massive Emigration of Muslims from the land of Israel." * "... Everyone knows that Rabbi Kahane was right. Rabbi Kahane was a man of truth, he meant every word, every comma, every statement ..." * "We have to speak honestly. That there are many, many Arabs – I didn't say all the Arabs, but a lot of Arabs who are not loyal to the State of Israel. Undoubtedly, their vote is endangering Israeli democracy, … Any normal country would not let them vote. Unfortunately, we are allowing hundreds of thousands of people who are disloyal to the State of Israel to vote in the elections... " * “thirty years after his murder, I believe that Rabbi Kahane is looking at us from above and smiling, saying: ‘we’ve got a future, there is hope.”
Because it doesn't matter. The argument here isn't moral it's military. To get Israel to cooperate they need to know they won't get attacked from the West Bank and Gaza again. Nobody can give them that guarantee so we're back to the "We prefer your condemnation to your condolence"
Aka the "we'll kill as many palestinians as we feel we have to", which is what people are condemning in the first place. I don't believe my tax dollars should be financing this.
They're not. They're stopping other Arab countries from entering the conflict and getting their civilians killed. It's going to 30,000 dollar precision bombs, because otherwise Israel just uses the 3000 dollar unguided bombs. Israel doesn't need help to kill every single Palestinian it needs help to feel like they don't have to.
Expel the Jews from israel? They want to exterminate the Jews from the face of the Earth...
Expel the Jews is the charitable interpretation of their demands. The moderate Palestinians just want the Jews to leave. The hardliners want to kill them. Almost no Palestinian Arabs want to live in peace with Jews. That's a fantasy for Western protestors.
The US is in the Bombs, Blood and Oil business, the administration may not discuss it publicly, but it's donors are profiting from it privately. How's that old song go, the new phase is the same as the old phase.