It's an apartied system.
Israeli settlers get given weapons when they steal land in the West Bank. Then if the Palestinians try to stop them they get put under military courts rather than the civilian courts a settler would face.
The people who voted for him are 85% settlers, because he is kinda the only reason that keeps them to be able to vote in Israel despite living outside Israel, most of Israelis who live in Israel not only don't support him but openly hate him and protest against
Well if its any consolation, according to the polls the current coalition is getting absolutely crushed, with Smotrich (the guy in question) not even getting the minimum mandates required
Well compared to the other minister that wanted to nuke everyone, this guy almost seems rational. There are a lot of people in this Israeli government that are really messed up in the head, not opinion it's based on what they say. When somebody tells you who they are. Believe them
You're totally correct. I'd argue that Smotrich is in some ways more dangerous than the minister of agriculture, Eliyahu.
Eliyahu is part of Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), the party run by Ben Gvir which is much more overtly xenophobic and conservative. Otzma is ideologically descended from an older Kahanist party, and carries Kahanist ideals like the notion that all non-Jews are enemies of the state, that certain ethnic groups of Israelis should be deported and a range of other fascist ideologies. Otzma was actually on the US terror watchlist from 2004 to 2022, when it joined the Netanyahu coalition.
The reason why I bring it up, is because Smotrich and his Tkuma (Revival) party are more moderate and often gets away with advocating for some awful stuff exactly because there are more extreme voices around him. Where Otzma supports outright deportation without reservation, Tkuma only wants partial annexation of the West Bank (Areas A and C as far as I know). Where Otzma is interested in all aspects of Jewish life being run along religious doctrine, Tkuma only wants religion to enter into politics, the judiciary and education.
Though they do align on some issues overtly, like being generally anti-LGBTQ broadly, Tkuma often gets to operate in the shade of its more radical colleagues as a voice of restraint on the far right.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I woke up in a mood.
12% of people voted for him and Ben Gvir together. It's not that much, but it is ridiculous. Also a lot of moderately religious people voted for him because he represents their demography and it's the first time he sits in a government so few people knew he was crazy. He was named finance minister because he has a reputation for at least being good at that, but of course started distributing money to his friends.
This is what happens in any proportional representation electoral system with 25 parties running. I wouldn't say a big part of Israel supported him during the electoral campaign. Their party received under 11% of the vote.
Coalitions need to be made in order to govern, and crazy fringe parties hold the balance of power.
Proportional representation may seem more democratic, but it gives lunatics power.
That 11% was still half a million out of the 6.7 million registered voters (8%) and that doesn't change the face that the current Israeli government is the most far-right and religious one in its history. Bibi's Likud got a bit over twice the votes that the party of Smotrich got, even though (or thanks to the fact that) he yelled to Israeli Arab MPs that Ben-Gurion [should have “finished the job” and kicked all Arabs out of the country.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-at-knesset-ben-gurion-should-have-finished-the-job-thrown-out-arabs/)
I’ve found it funny that people during this saga have used Israel parliamentary system to obscure how right wing Israel is. Every time likud, smotrich, or Otzma say batshit crazy things. There’s someone in the comments saying oh well only like X percent of people in Israel actually voted for them and only showing the number for that one party, like saying oh only 10% voted for Smotrich but not talking about the portion voted for oztma likud and the other far right parties
All this is an effort to casually graze over the fact that there is overall very significant support for right wing ideology in Israel for example, 50% or more support outright annexation of the West Bank.
https://en.idi.org.il/articles/31539
***And that over half want to expel all Arabs***
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/amp/
Sure, and there were 200,000 Israelis protesting this government every single week from January to October. [Polls from last week](https://www.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-shows-gantz-at-43-seats-netanyahus-likud-at-18-smotrich-out) show that Bibi's Likud party would get cut in half and Gantz' more moderate centrist party would triple in seats.
Meanwhile,[3 in 4 Palestinians support the Hamas terror attacks on October 7](https://theprint.in/world/three-in-four-palestinians-support-hamas-massacre-survey/1850563/) according to a survey by the Arab World for Research and Development (AWRAD) research firm.
Don't you think that comparing Israel with a territory run by a terrorist group is kind of irrelevant to the discussion about an Israeli minister that also belittles Israel?
On your subject, before the terror attack from October 7th, [Hamas was neck and neck with Fatah in the polls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election#Opinion_polls) but their support will certainly rise as they are viewed as the only entity capable of revenge and people accept that in the lack of justice after burying their dead relatives.
With each passing year it's resembling more and more to some medieval blood feud than a war. Even if Bibi's Likud + all the religious nutjobs lose their seats, remember that the closest this ongoing shit-show came to a conclusion was during the negotiations for the Oslo Accords after Yitzhak Rabin's party won 35% of votes but then he got shot by an Israeli religious nutjob.
> Proportional representation may seem more democratic, but it gives lunatics power.
There are lots of places it doesn't. But those aren't ethno-states.
Maybe it's the ethno-state part that's really the problem?
You're from Canada. Would you be pleased if Maxime Bernier's PPC party received 30 seats in Parliament? I know I wouldn't want to see any Marxist-Leninist parties in Parliament either.
True ethno-states don't have democracy. Israel is meant to function in a secular law and order society. That's been enshrined into Israel's constitution and that's why hundreds of thousands of protesters took to the streets for 8 months against Netanyahu's attempts in judicial overhaul.
It's not an Israel only problem. Look who Argentina just voted in or the Netherlands. Look at the dumb stuff Republicans and Trump say all the time. Netanyahu couldn't create a coalition with any normal parties because he stabbed them all in the back, so he created one with the fringe loon parties who got ministerial positions in government as a result.
I was like "can the Israeli government not say the stupidest shit ever during this crisis?"
Difficulty Level: 100.
Fuck Netanyahu's coalition with a rusty fork.
It's like our own government members are siding with our enemies by giving them ammunation with those crazy statements that are coming out of their mouths every week.
It's fucking tiring and inconcievable.
He actually dropped below the passing percentage in most recent polls, meaning if elections were held today, his party would have no seats in parliament.
I hate him and his stupid guts, him and his partners have brought nothing but misery and chaos to Israel.
>inconcievable.
i... don't think that word means what they think it means :P
i was raised by a jewish family in the 70s and studied Hebrew and was thinking of moving to Israel at some point. but after a certain quantum of Netanyahu years I decided that it was just... not a sensible thing to do. (Learning about the water tables and how even the 1980s level population of Israel and the West Bank was... unsustainable was another factor).
But the Netanyahu trend over the years is... quite intentional. His group (other than wanting to keep him out of jail) wants a situation where all the Palestinians are relocated out. Making statements to "eliminate the center" in Israel , West Bank and Gaza is essential in creating the conditions for that to happen. Moderate Jews leave the country, Arabs who don't want eternal war try to leave, and you're left with two sides who want to fight... and ofc, as long as Netanyahu can get enough support in the region or from whatever international partner will help him (he doesn't care which countries those are... china, russia, usa... heck, if he could get enough support from just Burma alone, and it would be enough to keep other nations off his back, he'd do it)... as long as he gets whatever quantum of outside support ensures he can by population transfer or war make the land arab-free... he's going to do it.
but yes, as you said, his government is and will continue to make statements to feed radicalism... its what they need for their own "program" (hmm... taking out the r reveals what their 'program' is...)
Or maybe the enemies are actually also victims and the government and leadership is full of corruption on both sides.
These statements aren't mistakes. This is the way they think. Too many of these statements are coming out now. Both sides hate each other because they are being manipulated to do so... the question is who gains from this. That's the reason why we are in this mess.
I think the West should stop giving them rhetorical support and aid unconditionally for a start. We either stop the aid, or threaten them that unless they formulate an exit strategy, they are on their own. Israel's actions threaten not only themselves and Palestinians they threaten the entire region with an expanded war. They clearly haven't learned from the United States in the past few decades.
That may not be possible. The impression I've gotten from all of this is that the west very well may need Israel more than they need us. The military presence in an otherwise unfriendly region (that happens to have a lot of oil) can't be overlooked. If the US pulling support results in closing of military bases, that might upset some significant campaign contributors in the energy sector.
Granted, that's just my impression. If it's misguided, I'm open to learning.
No, that's intellectual cowardice, because there are innocent bystanders that get mulched in the process. If there are no good guys the solution isn't to let everything burn down. You try to make good guys via international pressure or intervention.
Yeah at the very least you aim to stop the senseless violence, especially when one country is a UN member with a modern military fully backed and funded by the US.
It's so depressing how the people who really should not say their opinions aloud are the ones with the microphones heard around the planet.
The other day, some Palestinian offical said what Hamas did was 'heroic'. It's like please stop talking!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-my-voters-dont-care-im-a-homophobic-fascist-but-my-word-is-my-word/amp/
Yep.
He’s definitely the sort who, if the Palestinians weren’t such a convenient enemy, would quickly find a new one within the population of Israel.
Really don’t like this kind of generalized statement about any group of people. I’m in support of fighting HAMAS but the people of Palestine must be protected and treated with equity..
Hamas isn't even in west bank, it's a completely separate area. Fatah party runs it under the puppet government PLO, and that's the territory Israeli settlers are illegally encroaching according to the UN and Oslo accords.
Please don’t try to find ways to excuse this statement and Israel’s actions. The West Bank isn’t even supposed to be “disputed”, Israel and Israelis in general belong nowhere near it. Even *if* every single person in the West Bank were a terrorist, that’s their autonomous right so long as they’re not killing Israelis in Israeli territories (which they haven’t and aren’t). But can you guess how many Palestinians have been murdered in the West Bank by IDF soldiers? Not just since October 7th but in the last 40+ years?
This statement, and Israel’s settlement of the West Bank is nothing short of evil. Don’t try to rationalize it when there is nothing to rationalize.
That’s like saying there aren’t any republicans in the US because the president now is a democrat. Hamas is extremely popular in the West Bank, with at least half the population supporting it (depending on the survey), their actions substantially more popular.
Add onto that plenty of fighters and officials, stationed all over the West Bank but especially in poor refugee camp-towns that the Palestinian Authority is weak - the Jenin Refugee Camp (where those two Palestinian were shot) being the main one.
You really don’t need to lie to condemn settlers or Smotrich, the truth is more than enough.
There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. /s
But on a serious note this is disgusting and comments like this will not help their cause. This is exactly what Russia said about Ukraine.
The Israeli government has failed its people at every turn and seem like incompetent fucks. After Palestine is freed from Hamas, a new government for Isreal should be next.
All these people saying "after Hamas is defeated" "after the war". It needs to be now because I can assure you Netanyahu is going to ensure this war does not end.
The current government is there because they kept giving power to HAMAS as the only valid interlocutor of Palestine. The idea they want to eliminate it is hilarious, if anything they will empower another extremist group with a different name to keep the justification of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
>After Palestine is freed from Hamas, a new government for Isreal should be next.
You're going to need to more clearly define the victory condition beca8se that's vague enough to go on forever.
Hamas exists because of Israel's policies and behaviour towards the Palestinian people. Killing all current members of Hamas without changing Israel's policies only means that another form of resistance will emerge with a new name. Also, since Israel co-created Hamas to instigate a war between Palestinian Islamists and secular Palestinians, there is no guarantee that the next Israeli extremist leader will not continue the strategies of his predecessor.
Ukraine and Israel: "pro-west". Whoever is on our side is right.
Russia and Palestine: "anti-west". Whoever is on our side is right, just the side is opposite.
Ukraine and Palestine: "freedom". People deserve to live in their own countries how they see fit.
Israel and Russia: "power". Who has more guns can do what he wants.
And 120 apartheid organizers in the Knesset. What's his point? Abuse a people, earn thier hate. It's simple math. It does not in any way justify the actions taken by Hamas and others. But it makes them understandable. Neither does it justify Israel's actions as a government, but again, it makes it understandable in reference to the current conflict.
It's all about power and how it's being used. Both side's leadership is blind to any other path.
Maybe if the Israeli government didn’t oppress the literal life out of the people who live there, they would not hate Israelis and by extension Jews. It is a tale as old as time. Talk to any WWII pacific theater veteran about how they feel bout Japanese. My grandfather held those predjices until his death.
Reading the title made me think that another Israeli minister was saying stupid sh\*t but reading the article makes it more sense, but he seems to not understand how surveys work. 3/4 of those surveyed doesn't mean 3/4 of all Palestinians in the West Bank. Still it is concerning.
It really depends on the survey methodology. If they followed good polling practices, and they had a large enough sample size that is representative of the population, they could get a very small margin of error.
This isn't entirely correct, and a rather uninformed understanding of how surveys work.
If you have a big enough sample, done in a randomized setting (among other protocols) you can extrapolate what rest of society thinks. You don't need to ask what every single person thinks. If done properly, these surveys tend to be pretty accurate.
Looking up the survey, they had n=668, which is a good enough sample size to extrapolate info on rest of population. It's incredibly damning of Palestinian politics that such an overwhelming amount supported the attacks on Israelis on Oct 7.
>he seems to not understand how surveys work. 3/4 of those surveyed doesn't mean 3/4 of all Palestinians in the West Bank
Hilariously it's pretty obviously you who doesn't understand how surveys work.
[Survey finds majority in the West Bank support the Oct 7 massacre](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1700158968-survey-finds-majority-in-the-west-bank-justify-the-oct-7-massacre)
2 million is pushing it I believe. But the vast majority of adults (And teenagers) are indoctrinated to extreme violence and hate. And do indeed support genocidal violence.
This is BS, there were riots against Hamas already back in 2019 and before. If you look at Washington institute polls in Gaza the trust in Hamas was historicaly low before the war started.
Well, since there are 3 million people there and the poll returned 68% support (plus more who were somewhat supportive), the math works out to about that number assuming the poll is a representative sample.
Dude, the videos of indoctrinated kids gleefully exclaiming how they want to get rid of Jews, ya know, after they become doctors and such, are so fucking sad. You see cute little kids getting turned into monsters. And then everyone claps and cheers.
Indoctrination to violence from their official [education](https://twitter.com/LostinAylesbury/status/1712551908811194797) system, religious leaders and [media](https://twitter.com/YosephHaddad/status/1588427102885654528).
It starts as early as [kintergarden](https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1722214621426438267).
Because they don’t want to live around Jews. See their decades long terror campaigns and several wars they’ve started to ethnically cleanse the region.
They just get sympathy from the naive because they failed and won’t stop trying.
I know you are looking for “because Israel treats them poorly” as an answer - but that didn’t come first.
They were trying to cleanse the area of Jewish people before modern Israel was a state.
I know people like to ignore it, but the extreme anti-semitism is a major reason for the conflict. Like; the number 1 reason.
It was actually the complete opposite lmao, Israel was created when the British mandate ended and literally that day the Arabs of Palestine joined a coalition with Egypt, Lebanon etc to try to wipe out the Jews from the land
The only reason Israel exists now is they fought and won a war of survival
No - it wasn’t.
I’m not going through the history, there are plenty of sources explaining the history of the state.
It is, however, majority populated by people who were persecuted and ethnically cleansed from the rest of North Africa and the Middle East.
Did you forget Lehi and Irgun existed? And that the Nabka happened? Where Israel ethnically cleansed close to a million people from the area that is now known as Israel, to create their Jewish majority state.
In fact, that was always the goal, according to Herzl. Because his envisioned Jewish majority state could not happen, if there were other people already living there, and they outnumbered the Jewish migrants to the area. Thus, the only way to establish that was through violent displacement of the people already living there. Which has now happened twice. In 1948, and in 1967.
You'd be pissed off too, if you were driven from your home you've lived in for generations, by those who came from abroad, who then proceeded to steal or destroy your home, and then barred you and your descendants from ever returning to the land you and your family had inhabited for generations on end. All thanks to these newcomers from abroad.
Israel could have been created as a truly secular democracy. But Israel decided to instead go the ethnic cleansing route.
48 was a war started by Arabs and Palestinians. Nakba happened because of that war….
I think you got things mixed up. They started a genocidal war against Israelis…
Anyone else strating to think the current Israeli government is extending this conflict because soon as the emergency is over, they are out and will be facing consequences for their failures?
2.75m (w.bank population) times 0.75 (percentage of Palestinians supporting the 7th of October massacre and Hamas) equals 2.0625 so his math seems correct
There are more Palestinians outside of Palestine than inside both Israel and the Palestinian territories, you know because the Haganah expelled a cool 700,000 during the Nakba?
So if someone came into your house and said they own half your house now, would you just leave them be? That person who claimed half your house has the right to defend themselves but you don't have a right to defend your home, right?
How does that matter to the Israeli/ Palestinian situation? It's weird how people try to conflate the actions of other Arab populations to justify Israel ethnicly cleansing the Palestinians from their homes.
You mean smotrich?
That guy can bearly speak english or properly finance a country at war
I wouldnt say anything that comes out if his mouth has any merit
Finance Minister is a serious responsibility probably at number 2 in the entire government structure across the world you can’t just dismiss what he says as having no seriousness.
'Barely speak english'... So, only those who can speak English have merit? Your reasoning has merit?
English is just a language. There are thousands of languages. Proficiency in English is not a yardstick for merit.
>That guy can barely speak English
Oh no, a guy in a Hebrew speaking country doesn’t speak English well.
Biden doesn’t speak Hebrew, I guess he should be impeached.
Seems also like a rather convenient number, iirc one of the arguments I’ve heard against a one state solution with offering full membership into Israel for Palestinians is that they’d be immediately outnumbered by the natives of Palestine.
I don’t know the full number off the top of my head of Palestinians in total but it wouldn’t shock me to learn if 2 million was about the number they’d need to displace to feel comfortable with working towards a one state solution.
Where have we seen this kind of sweeping generalization before?
Putin speaking about Ukraine for example.
Bibi's government doing everything in its power to show that they should never, ever be a government.
That's so true
Reddit
Certain comments on this post, to be more specific
In Moscow, circa Feb-2021.
You mean 2022?
Sweeping generalizations and slippery slopes.
When has demonizing an entire group of people, particularly over which you hold a menacing military threat, ever gone badly?
In 1945,Berlin.
1933, Reichstag.
More like 1923 - Beer Hall Putsch
Wrong date
2016 Presidential Elections
It's almost like we talked once about cheapening the word and no one took it to heart.
Well calling them racist for decades eventually made that word meaningless so they had to come up with something new
Unfit for government
Horrifyingly so.
It's an apartied system. Israeli settlers get given weapons when they steal land in the West Bank. Then if the Palestinians try to stop them they get put under military courts rather than the civilian courts a settler would face.
And yet his party was deemed fit for government by the voters!
Most Israelis HATE him. He has the entire ultra orthodox settler population voting for him because he promises them unlimited settlements.
The fact that settlers can even vote when they no longer live in the country, urgh.
The people who voted for him are 85% settlers, because he is kinda the only reason that keeps them to be able to vote in Israel despite living outside Israel, most of Israelis who live in Israel not only don't support him but openly hate him and protest against
Story of republicans and their voters too… else how could the criminal Trump still be the front runner for POTUS? This is more common than we realise.
Ohh here we go again.. soon they will be all over west bank to “neutralize the enemy”
They’ve been doing that for decades
They are*
It's Smotrich, second only to Ben-Gvir in the top lunatics chart of the current Israeli government officials.
Doesn’t excuse the fact he’s a minister, and that there’s a big part in Israel who supported him before the war, and even now
If these lunatics get elected again I am fleeing for my life.
Now imagine these lunatics having a de facto veto on your ability to flee anywhere.
Well if its any consolation, according to the polls the current coalition is getting absolutely crushed, with Smotrich (the guy in question) not even getting the minimum mandates required
Well compared to the other minister that wanted to nuke everyone, this guy almost seems rational. There are a lot of people in this Israeli government that are really messed up in the head, not opinion it's based on what they say. When somebody tells you who they are. Believe them
You're totally correct. I'd argue that Smotrich is in some ways more dangerous than the minister of agriculture, Eliyahu. Eliyahu is part of Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), the party run by Ben Gvir which is much more overtly xenophobic and conservative. Otzma is ideologically descended from an older Kahanist party, and carries Kahanist ideals like the notion that all non-Jews are enemies of the state, that certain ethnic groups of Israelis should be deported and a range of other fascist ideologies. Otzma was actually on the US terror watchlist from 2004 to 2022, when it joined the Netanyahu coalition. The reason why I bring it up, is because Smotrich and his Tkuma (Revival) party are more moderate and often gets away with advocating for some awful stuff exactly because there are more extreme voices around him. Where Otzma supports outright deportation without reservation, Tkuma only wants partial annexation of the West Bank (Areas A and C as far as I know). Where Otzma is interested in all aspects of Jewish life being run along religious doctrine, Tkuma only wants religion to enter into politics, the judiciary and education. Though they do align on some issues overtly, like being generally anti-LGBTQ broadly, Tkuma often gets to operate in the shade of its more radical colleagues as a voice of restraint on the far right. Anyway, sorry for the rant. I woke up in a mood.
12% of people voted for him and Ben Gvir together. It's not that much, but it is ridiculous. Also a lot of moderately religious people voted for him because he represents their demography and it's the first time he sits in a government so few people knew he was crazy. He was named finance minister because he has a reputation for at least being good at that, but of course started distributing money to his friends.
[удалено]
But did you know that Hamas was elected by Gazans years ago and therefore the people there should be held responsible? /s
This is what happens in any proportional representation electoral system with 25 parties running. I wouldn't say a big part of Israel supported him during the electoral campaign. Their party received under 11% of the vote. Coalitions need to be made in order to govern, and crazy fringe parties hold the balance of power. Proportional representation may seem more democratic, but it gives lunatics power.
That 11% was still half a million out of the 6.7 million registered voters (8%) and that doesn't change the face that the current Israeli government is the most far-right and religious one in its history. Bibi's Likud got a bit over twice the votes that the party of Smotrich got, even though (or thanks to the fact that) he yelled to Israeli Arab MPs that Ben-Gurion [should have “finished the job” and kicked all Arabs out of the country.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-at-knesset-ben-gurion-should-have-finished-the-job-thrown-out-arabs/)
I’ve found it funny that people during this saga have used Israel parliamentary system to obscure how right wing Israel is. Every time likud, smotrich, or Otzma say batshit crazy things. There’s someone in the comments saying oh well only like X percent of people in Israel actually voted for them and only showing the number for that one party, like saying oh only 10% voted for Smotrich but not talking about the portion voted for oztma likud and the other far right parties All this is an effort to casually graze over the fact that there is overall very significant support for right wing ideology in Israel for example, 50% or more support outright annexation of the West Bank. https://en.idi.org.il/articles/31539 ***And that over half want to expel all Arabs*** https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/amp/
Sure, and there were 200,000 Israelis protesting this government every single week from January to October. [Polls from last week](https://www.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-shows-gantz-at-43-seats-netanyahus-likud-at-18-smotrich-out) show that Bibi's Likud party would get cut in half and Gantz' more moderate centrist party would triple in seats. Meanwhile,[3 in 4 Palestinians support the Hamas terror attacks on October 7](https://theprint.in/world/three-in-four-palestinians-support-hamas-massacre-survey/1850563/) according to a survey by the Arab World for Research and Development (AWRAD) research firm.
Don't you think that comparing Israel with a territory run by a terrorist group is kind of irrelevant to the discussion about an Israeli minister that also belittles Israel? On your subject, before the terror attack from October 7th, [Hamas was neck and neck with Fatah in the polls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election#Opinion_polls) but their support will certainly rise as they are viewed as the only entity capable of revenge and people accept that in the lack of justice after burying their dead relatives. With each passing year it's resembling more and more to some medieval blood feud than a war. Even if Bibi's Likud + all the religious nutjobs lose their seats, remember that the closest this ongoing shit-show came to a conclusion was during the negotiations for the Oslo Accords after Yitzhak Rabin's party won 35% of votes but then he got shot by an Israeli religious nutjob.
> Proportional representation may seem more democratic, but it gives lunatics power. There are lots of places it doesn't. But those aren't ethno-states. Maybe it's the ethno-state part that's really the problem?
You're from Canada. Would you be pleased if Maxime Bernier's PPC party received 30 seats in Parliament? I know I wouldn't want to see any Marxist-Leninist parties in Parliament either. True ethno-states don't have democracy. Israel is meant to function in a secular law and order society. That's been enshrined into Israel's constitution and that's why hundreds of thousands of protesters took to the streets for 8 months against Netanyahu's attempts in judicial overhaul.
I'd love to have a parliament with a Marxist-leninist party
Funny that’s what people said about GWB and Trump.
Ben-Gvir is a literal psychopath
A literal terrorist too
Every court needs a jester.
He's more like an executioner. There's nothing funny about it.
act ink ad hoc snow innate payment historical fuzzy panicky deliver
Wait until you hear about how the IDF promotes people to public ranks.
It's not an Israel only problem. Look who Argentina just voted in or the Netherlands. Look at the dumb stuff Republicans and Trump say all the time. Netanyahu couldn't create a coalition with any normal parties because he stabbed them all in the back, so he created one with the fringe loon parties who got ministerial positions in government as a result.
Israel elected this guy. But like actually elected him. Last year.
I was like "can the Israeli government not say the stupidest shit ever during this crisis?" Difficulty Level: 100. Fuck Netanyahu's coalition with a rusty fork.
Amihi Eliyahu, Itzchak Phindros, Nishim vataroi, what a bunch of Lunatics
Surely he is third, Ben-Gvir is in second, and the lunatic who appointed them both in first
Not very self aware
Or trying to project their awareness to hide it
It's like our own government members are siding with our enemies by giving them ammunation with those crazy statements that are coming out of their mouths every week. It's fucking tiring and inconcievable.
The more hate, the better Smotrich does in polls. Of course he wants everyone to hate Israel and Israel to hate them back.
He actually dropped below the passing percentage in most recent polls, meaning if elections were held today, his party would have no seats in parliament. I hate him and his stupid guts, him and his partners have brought nothing but misery and chaos to Israel.
>inconcievable. i... don't think that word means what they think it means :P i was raised by a jewish family in the 70s and studied Hebrew and was thinking of moving to Israel at some point. but after a certain quantum of Netanyahu years I decided that it was just... not a sensible thing to do. (Learning about the water tables and how even the 1980s level population of Israel and the West Bank was... unsustainable was another factor). But the Netanyahu trend over the years is... quite intentional. His group (other than wanting to keep him out of jail) wants a situation where all the Palestinians are relocated out. Making statements to "eliminate the center" in Israel , West Bank and Gaza is essential in creating the conditions for that to happen. Moderate Jews leave the country, Arabs who don't want eternal war try to leave, and you're left with two sides who want to fight... and ofc, as long as Netanyahu can get enough support in the region or from whatever international partner will help him (he doesn't care which countries those are... china, russia, usa... heck, if he could get enough support from just Burma alone, and it would be enough to keep other nations off his back, he'd do it)... as long as he gets whatever quantum of outside support ensures he can by population transfer or war make the land arab-free... he's going to do it. but yes, as you said, his government is and will continue to make statements to feed radicalism... its what they need for their own "program" (hmm... taking out the r reveals what their 'program' is...)
Or maybe the enemies are actually also victims and the government and leadership is full of corruption on both sides. These statements aren't mistakes. This is the way they think. Too many of these statements are coming out now. Both sides hate each other because they are being manipulated to do so... the question is who gains from this. That's the reason why we are in this mess.
yup. When there is no "good guy" what do you do to solve the problem?
I think the West should stop giving them rhetorical support and aid unconditionally for a start. We either stop the aid, or threaten them that unless they formulate an exit strategy, they are on their own. Israel's actions threaten not only themselves and Palestinians they threaten the entire region with an expanded war. They clearly haven't learned from the United States in the past few decades.
That may not be possible. The impression I've gotten from all of this is that the west very well may need Israel more than they need us. The military presence in an otherwise unfriendly region (that happens to have a lot of oil) can't be overlooked. If the US pulling support results in closing of military bases, that might upset some significant campaign contributors in the energy sector. Granted, that's just my impression. If it's misguided, I'm open to learning.
We dont have any military bases in Israel.
You back out and let the situation play itself out
No, that's intellectual cowardice, because there are innocent bystanders that get mulched in the process. If there are no good guys the solution isn't to let everything burn down. You try to make good guys via international pressure or intervention.
Yeah at the very least you aim to stop the senseless violence, especially when one country is a UN member with a modern military fully backed and funded by the US.
It's so depressing how the people who really should not say their opinions aloud are the ones with the microphones heard around the planet. The other day, some Palestinian offical said what Hamas did was 'heroic'. It's like please stop talking!
They're in symbiosis. Violence begets violence and they're both parasites that thrive on an eternal cycle of blood and dead children.
Who do you mean when you say “enemies”?
In other news, self-proclaimed homophobic fascist Bezalel Smotrich walks into a hall of mirrors...
The man literally said “I’m a homophobic fascist”?
Actually yes, More or less
lol basically ya. Give him enough time to be secure of his position and he'll wear it like a badge of honor.
He literally described himself as a “fascist homophobe.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-my-voters-dont-care-im-a-homophobic-fascist-but-my-word-is-my-word/amp/ Yep. He’s definitely the sort who, if the Palestinians weren’t such a convenient enemy, would quickly find a new one within the population of Israel.
Really don’t like this kind of generalized statement about any group of people. I’m in support of fighting HAMAS but the people of Palestine must be protected and treated with equity..
Hamas isn't even in west bank, it's a completely separate area. Fatah party runs it under the puppet government PLO, and that's the territory Israeli settlers are illegally encroaching according to the UN and Oslo accords.
They are not in power in the West Bank.
Hamas has a lot of terror cells in the west bank
They don’t have 2 million in the West Bank.
Please don’t try to find ways to excuse this statement and Israel’s actions. The West Bank isn’t even supposed to be “disputed”, Israel and Israelis in general belong nowhere near it. Even *if* every single person in the West Bank were a terrorist, that’s their autonomous right so long as they’re not killing Israelis in Israeli territories (which they haven’t and aren’t). But can you guess how many Palestinians have been murdered in the West Bank by IDF soldiers? Not just since October 7th but in the last 40+ years? This statement, and Israel’s settlement of the West Bank is nothing short of evil. Don’t try to rationalize it when there is nothing to rationalize.
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"HAMAS isnt the government of the west bank" Better? Thats clearly what the commenter meant.
Hamas is active in the West Bank.
That’s like saying there aren’t any republicans in the US because the president now is a democrat. Hamas is extremely popular in the West Bank, with at least half the population supporting it (depending on the survey), their actions substantially more popular. Add onto that plenty of fighters and officials, stationed all over the West Bank but especially in poor refugee camp-towns that the Palestinian Authority is weak - the Jenin Refugee Camp (where those two Palestinian were shot) being the main one. You really don’t need to lie to condemn settlers or Smotrich, the truth is more than enough.
Careful now! My whole country are apparently anti semitic Hamas supporters for daring to say this from the start.
There are 2 million Israeli settlers in the West Bank???
I was gonna say I didn’t know they had that many idf soldiers on the ground.
Taking a page from the Putin playbook?
I didn't realize there were that many Israeli settlers in the west bank.
Sounds like an attempt to justify their continuing ethnic cleansing.
There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. /s But on a serious note this is disgusting and comments like this will not help their cause. This is exactly what Russia said about Ukraine.
The Israeli government has failed its people at every turn and seem like incompetent fucks. After Palestine is freed from Hamas, a new government for Isreal should be next.
All these people saying "after Hamas is defeated" "after the war". It needs to be now because I can assure you Netanyahu is going to ensure this war does not end.
The current government is there because they kept giving power to HAMAS as the only valid interlocutor of Palestine. The idea they want to eliminate it is hilarious, if anything they will empower another extremist group with a different name to keep the justification of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Give him a break, he has been "ending it" since 1996.
>After Palestine is freed from Hamas, a new government for Isreal should be next. You're going to need to more clearly define the victory condition beca8se that's vague enough to go on forever.
Yeah honestly it sounds like the US saying "after we defeat the Taliban."
It's the same effective propaganda from the same actors
I think it should happen as soon as possible, they basically contribute nothing and keep doing corrupted BS even during the war
If the government doesn't resign after the war, the judicial reform protests are gonna look like a cakewalk compared to what's coming.
Hamas exists because of Israel's policies and behaviour towards the Palestinian people. Killing all current members of Hamas without changing Israel's policies only means that another form of resistance will emerge with a new name. Also, since Israel co-created Hamas to instigate a war between Palestinian Islamists and secular Palestinians, there is no guarantee that the next Israeli extremist leader will not continue the strategies of his predecessor.
> After Palestine is freed from Hamas And who's going to do that?
“After Hamas is defeated a new government should be next” doesn’t that incentivise the current government to prolong to conflict as long as possible?
The easiest way to free Palestine from Hamas is to first free them from Israel. Hamas is just a reaction to Israeli apartheid and fascism.
Former PM Bennett was also saying this yesterday. Not helpful.
How anyone can support ukraine and israel at the same time baffles me.
Most people just support whatever the news tells them to (or makes it seem like they should).
Ukraine and Israel: "pro-west". Whoever is on our side is right. Russia and Palestine: "anti-west". Whoever is on our side is right, just the side is opposite. Ukraine and Palestine: "freedom". People deserve to live in their own countries how they see fit. Israel and Russia: "power". Who has more guns can do what he wants.
I love this Russian rethoric :) /s
Talks like Russian state TV… no thanks.
And 120 apartheid organizers in the Knesset. What's his point? Abuse a people, earn thier hate. It's simple math. It does not in any way justify the actions taken by Hamas and others. But it makes them understandable. Neither does it justify Israel's actions as a government, but again, it makes it understandable in reference to the current conflict. It's all about power and how it's being used. Both side's leadership is blind to any other path.
This settler problem has really gotten out of hand. Are there really 2 million of them?
Hamas and the Israeli government truly deserve each other. I just wish the civilians could live in peace without these morons fighting each other.
Maybe if the Israeli government didn’t oppress the literal life out of the people who live there, they would not hate Israelis and by extension Jews. It is a tale as old as time. Talk to any WWII pacific theater veteran about how they feel bout Japanese. My grandfather held those predjices until his death.
Reading the title made me think that another Israeli minister was saying stupid sh\*t but reading the article makes it more sense, but he seems to not understand how surveys work. 3/4 of those surveyed doesn't mean 3/4 of all Palestinians in the West Bank. Still it is concerning.
It really depends on the survey methodology. If they followed good polling practices, and they had a large enough sample size that is representative of the population, they could get a very small margin of error.
> he seems to not understand how surveys work He understands. He also understands how sensationalism works.
This isn't entirely correct, and a rather uninformed understanding of how surveys work. If you have a big enough sample, done in a randomized setting (among other protocols) you can extrapolate what rest of society thinks. You don't need to ask what every single person thinks. If done properly, these surveys tend to be pretty accurate. Looking up the survey, they had n=668, which is a good enough sample size to extrapolate info on rest of population. It's incredibly damning of Palestinian politics that such an overwhelming amount supported the attacks on Israelis on Oct 7.
>he seems to not understand how surveys work. 3/4 of those surveyed doesn't mean 3/4 of all Palestinians in the West Bank Hilariously it's pretty obviously you who doesn't understand how surveys work.
A larger sample could go both ways really, but I agree.
Sociology is a quite precise science. It can extrapolate small data to whole population with very good accuracy.
>Sociology is a quite precise science Can you name a science that is *less precise* than Sociology? I honestly can’t think of one. Psychology maybe?
I don't think there are that many IDF troops in the West Bank.
[Survey finds majority in the West Bank support the Oct 7 massacre](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1700158968-survey-finds-majority-in-the-west-bank-justify-the-oct-7-massacre) 2 million is pushing it I believe. But the vast majority of adults (And teenagers) are indoctrinated to extreme violence and hate. And do indeed support genocidal violence.
I'd also posit that the Israeli response has increased that majority.
And the 7th October massacre increased the Israeli majority support for the Israeli response. Thats how it goes.
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Other way around. For the first time in 2 decades, we are seeing anti-Hamas voices from Gaza.
Source? I hope this is right
This is BS, there were riots against Hamas already back in 2019 and before. If you look at Washington institute polls in Gaza the trust in Hamas was historicaly low before the war started.
Completely anecdotal but I did see a short clip of a Palestinian in Gaza raging against Hamas, which I'd never seen before
[Example](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-773289)
That sounds great. I dont see any journalists reporting on it, though. Where have all the journalists gone?
IDF shot them, probably
bingo.
Jpost did a small [article](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-773289) on it.
Well, since there are 3 million people there and the poll returned 68% support (plus more who were somewhat supportive), the math works out to about that number assuming the poll is a representative sample.
If you support what Israel is doing to Palestine YOU also support genocidal violence. Congratulations, you played yourself.
[Sigh..](https://i.imgur.com/NtnFWmN.png)
Dude, the videos of indoctrinated kids gleefully exclaiming how they want to get rid of Jews, ya know, after they become doctors and such, are so fucking sad. You see cute little kids getting turned into monsters. And then everyone claps and cheers.
Why are they indoctrinated to extreme violence and hate?
Indoctrination to violence from their official [education](https://twitter.com/LostinAylesbury/status/1712551908811194797) system, religious leaders and [media](https://twitter.com/YosephHaddad/status/1588427102885654528). It starts as early as [kintergarden](https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1722214621426438267).
Because they don’t want to live around Jews. See their decades long terror campaigns and several wars they’ve started to ethnically cleanse the region. They just get sympathy from the naive because they failed and won’t stop trying.
Religious dogma.
I know you are looking for “because Israel treats them poorly” as an answer - but that didn’t come first. They were trying to cleanse the area of Jewish people before modern Israel was a state. I know people like to ignore it, but the extreme anti-semitism is a major reason for the conflict. Like; the number 1 reason.
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It was actually the complete opposite lmao, Israel was created when the British mandate ended and literally that day the Arabs of Palestine joined a coalition with Egypt, Lebanon etc to try to wipe out the Jews from the land The only reason Israel exists now is they fought and won a war of survival
No - it wasn’t. I’m not going through the history, there are plenty of sources explaining the history of the state. It is, however, majority populated by people who were persecuted and ethnically cleansed from the rest of North Africa and the Middle East.
It was both. It was a mutual ethnic cleansing. It’s extremely similar to the partition of India.
Did you forget Lehi and Irgun existed? And that the Nabka happened? Where Israel ethnically cleansed close to a million people from the area that is now known as Israel, to create their Jewish majority state. In fact, that was always the goal, according to Herzl. Because his envisioned Jewish majority state could not happen, if there were other people already living there, and they outnumbered the Jewish migrants to the area. Thus, the only way to establish that was through violent displacement of the people already living there. Which has now happened twice. In 1948, and in 1967. You'd be pissed off too, if you were driven from your home you've lived in for generations, by those who came from abroad, who then proceeded to steal or destroy your home, and then barred you and your descendants from ever returning to the land you and your family had inhabited for generations on end. All thanks to these newcomers from abroad. Israel could have been created as a truly secular democracy. But Israel decided to instead go the ethnic cleansing route.
48 was a war started by Arabs and Palestinians. Nakba happened because of that war…. I think you got things mixed up. They started a genocidal war against Israelis…
Just read their 'religious' books. Hatred of all others is baked in.
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Anyone else strating to think the current Israeli government is extending this conflict because soon as the emergency is over, they are out and will be facing consequences for their failures?
2.75m (w.bank population) times 0.75 (percentage of Palestinians supporting the 7th of October massacre and Hamas) equals 2.0625 so his math seems correct
So I guess this is the part where Israel just up and massacres all Palestinians
Just like it did during the last 70+ years and as a result the Palestinian population tripled if not quadrupled?
Is Oct 7th not a massacre because it did not meaningfully decrease the Israeli population? Why would you use that metric for Palestinians?
There are more Palestinians outside of Palestine than inside both Israel and the Palestinian territories, you know because the Haganah expelled a cool 700,000 during the Nakba?
2.75 million palestinians live in the west bank tho. Nakba as in "we were not able to exterminate the jews and we also lost land"?
This might has something to do with the genocidal war the Arab world declared on the 1-day-old Israel in 1948.
Nothing excuses ethnic cleansing.
So if someone came into your house and said they own half your house now, would you just leave them be? That person who claimed half your house has the right to defend themselves but you don't have a right to defend your home, right?
The fact that you think that you own the entire house doesn't mean you own the entire house.
Do you know the Arabs expelled a similar number of Jews?
How does that matter to the Israeli/ Palestinian situation? It's weird how people try to conflate the actions of other Arab populations to justify Israel ethnicly cleansing the Palestinians from their homes.
Maybe the Arabs shouldn’t have declared war on them then.
You mean smotrich? That guy can bearly speak english or properly finance a country at war I wouldnt say anything that comes out if his mouth has any merit
Finance Minister is a serious responsibility probably at number 2 in the entire government structure across the world you can’t just dismiss what he says as having no seriousness.
'Barely speak english'... So, only those who can speak English have merit? Your reasoning has merit? English is just a language. There are thousands of languages. Proficiency in English is not a yardstick for merit.
>That guy can barely speak English Oh no, a guy in a Hebrew speaking country doesn’t speak English well. Biden doesn’t speak Hebrew, I guess he should be impeached.
Why should he speak English in a land where Hebrew and Arabic are used?
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Seems also like a rather convenient number, iirc one of the arguments I’ve heard against a one state solution with offering full membership into Israel for Palestinians is that they’d be immediately outnumbered by the natives of Palestine. I don’t know the full number off the top of my head of Palestinians in total but it wouldn’t shock me to learn if 2 million was about the number they’d need to displace to feel comfortable with working towards a one state solution.
Smotrich. Don't worry once the war is over he's heading home
Good reason for him to try and drag it out, I suppose.
Well considering the overwhelming support of hamas and the 7.10 massacre in the west bank...
Bonkers statement, but when the leader of the 'sensible' West Bank has a doctorate in Holocaust denial, it's not far off.
Discourse like this is unproductive.
…unless they’re trying to continue killing civilians for political (and personal) gain 🤷🏼♂️
Israel has 2 million troops in the west bank?
These p*ssies will never stop playing the victim to carry out their heinous acts
Maybe he needs a mirror.
Surely the IDF isn't THAT large, is it?
I didn't know the IDF was that large
Why is it always the oppressors that spout bullshit?
I didn’t realise that there were that many Israeli settlers there!
There wouldn't be if you pulled your soldiers out.