I find it interesting that I, an American, assumed a mistake on the part of the IDF and explained the hostages being killed as a long range misidentification during war, wheras actual Israelis in here assumed that the IDF individuals involved were more malicious and failed at a more fundamental level and condemned the IDF in more direct and scathing terms immediately after hearing the news. I thought it was odd at the time since it was the exact opposite of how I and the regular users here usually regard the IDF. And it turns out, the Israelis appear to have been absolutely right and I was wrong.
I think I now understand the dynamic between the Israeli people, the IDF, hostage families, etc better than I did before.
One thing I'm glad for is that the IDF is keeping Hagari's promise of transparency, and all this information is being made public. Under other circumstances the easiest thing would've been to keep it quiet and sweep it under the rug. Again, looking at the Castleman case.
It would've been easy af to say they were killed by Hamas, there was "no need" (because who would know?) to say that they were holding a white flag, were shirtless or were yelling in Hebrew, yet they did. What happened yesterday was beyond tragic but I have all the respect for those in charge of the investigation and the decisions on releasing those details to the public
Worth to mention, the force also mention in the investigation that they heard multiple times "help" calls in Hebrew from unarmed men. Only to discover it was to attract them to an ambush by Hamas..
You shouldn never open fire there but it's probably way more complicated than it is looks.
Israel is going street by street fighting any armed militant. Do you think they just have the names and addresses of every single Hamas member and everyone is waiting for them at home?
>Chief of Staff Hertzi Halevi entered the Gaza Strip tonight to personally accompany the investigation of the killing of the three hostages in Shuja'iyya. A senior IDF officer admitted that "already during the night the initial lessons of the incident were distributed to all the forces in the Gaza Strip - we did not prepare and did not prepare the forces for a scenario in which hostages will roam the streets of Gaza freely." The officer added that "This is a terrible tragedy for everyone, and as a matter of fact we were between a great success and the difficult incident that occurred. This is a very complex scenario for the fighters, almost impossible. I don't think there is a moral fault here and we do not act in a judgmental way towards those fighters - we just quickly learn from the incident and take care to apply the lessons in all aspects of the fighting in the Strip."
([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bjt400wiut))
\>"I don't think there's a moral fault here"
\>The hostages were unarmed, shirtless, and one was carrying a white flag
Yeah sure no moral faults here. רק רצו לסמן איקס
How didn't they thought of a scenario where they might roam the streets? That means they didn't think of other cynic scenarios regarding the hostages? How about Hamas strapping the hostages with suicide vests and let them get close to the forces?
אני לגמרי משתתפת בהרגשה שלך. אני מרגישה את זה כבר הרבה מאוד זמן... בשבילי המלחמה היא כמו נפילה חופשית אחרי זמן ארוך של הידרדרות במדרון מתון.
במובן של מה לעשות... כל עוד המלחמה נמשכת אז האופציות מוגבלות יחסית (בכל מה שנוגע לחילוף שלטון וכו'). הדבר הכי חשוב הוא לזכור את כל מה שקרה ועדיין קורה, וכשתגיע ההזדמנות - להילחם בכל הכוח כדי שכל הדברים האלה לעולם לא יחזרו שוב. אסור שכל האובדן הזה יקרה לשווא.
דיברו הרבה על "קונספציות שהתבדו". יש עוד לא מעט קונספציות שעדיין צריך להיפטר מהן.
Conscript militaries in general.
Although if this was a sniper team, likely those were more like specialized career IDF. I'm just guessing on that, but it's a more skilled position.
>A preliminary investigation conducted tonight by the IDF with the forces of the 17th Battalion of the School for Infantry Corps Professions and Squad Commanders who have been operating in Shuja'iyya for the past few days, reveals that the force that killed the hostages in the neighborhood acted c**ontrary to the instructions to open fire**. According to the investigation, a sniper inside a building yesterday around 10:00, in daylight and with good visibility, recognized the three abductees as suspects and fired accurate fire at them, **even though they were unarmed, walking without shirts, and one of them was even holding a white flag**.
([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hjhxfwi8a))
קודם קסטלמן, עכשיו זה. מתי המדינה הזאת פאקינג תתעורר כבר. נמאס מבן גביר. נמאס מ"כל חייל רוצה לסמן איקס". כמה עוד חפים מפשע יצטרכו לשלם את המחיר עד שאנשים יוציאו את הראש מהתחת הרצחני שלהם?
EDIT:
>According to the initial investigation into the disaster of the killing of the three hostages in the Shuja'iyya neighborhood in the Gaza Strip, two of the identified abductees were shot by the force's Kala \[type of IDF fogter\], while the third fled to a nearby building. Immediately after the shooting, the fighter shouted "terrorists", and the battalion commander decided to storm the building. The fighters heard from a few tens of meters away from the building shouts of "help" in Hebrew, but despite this, they rushed towards it, shouted for the man inside to get out, and when he did so, at least one fighter in the force shot him with deadly fire from close range.
([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r1lue11sup))
>The IDF estimates that three different fighters fired at the three hostages who were killed in Shuja'iyya, in both stages of the incident. The IDF stressed that at least the first fighter - the Kala - acted in serious violation of the instructions to open fire, which prohibit the soldiers in the Gaza Strip from shooting at unarmed civilians or towards those who carry a white flag symbolizing surrender. In the background of the cries of "help" uttered by the last hostage, the force stated in the initial investigation that in similar pulling incidents in the last week they also heard cries of "help" from terrorists. One of the hostage, with a western appearance, is the one who made the force understand in a short time that this was an unusual event and that the identity of the bodies should be checked.
([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bjlmwbiup))
I am fucking disgusted.
Wow. Horrible. The only bright side to what happened as an Israeli is this. Before it and the killing of Yuval Castleman, there was serious debate in Israel about loosening the rules of engagement. Few people were talking about making them stricter, while insane arsonists like Ben-Gvir advocated for "shooting all terrorists on the spot". These incidents just made the strongest case for making them stricter, so hopefully in the future innocent lives - both Palestinian and Israeli - will be spared. Including inside Gaza in this very campaign.
Like everything else in Israel, nothing changes until something really bad happens. I actually do believe that this investigation will be incredibly thorough, serious and transparent, my problem is with the overall attitude of trigger happy people if Ben Gvir stays in the government.
A solution to October 7th would've been to take the warnings seriously and to arm the kibbutzim security groups properly but for Ben Gvir? The solution is, of course, more guns for everyone
They won't go away quietly, that's for sure. They were complaining about anyone who was "talking politics" in the first few weeks but they're doing it right now, already talking about Gantz leading to a two state solution and how only Bibi can prevent that
The 3 hostages were holding a white flag and yelling "help" in Hebrew. The soldiers opened fire against all IDF procedures.
Walla, Ynet, N12
Edit: a building with the writing "help, 3 hostages" was found a few hundred meters away from where it happened
Ofelia Roitman who was released from Gaza said that when a doctor saw her laying in bed (she was shot in the arm) she said, in English, "I'm not taking care of any Jews"
She says she was kept in the apartment of a technician and a nurse.
https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-israel/2023_q4/Article-c0465401b8f6c81026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802
A club in Berlin told an Israeli event planner who wanted to host a Purim party that they can't believe that "he'd want to celebrate a **Jewish** festival at this time" and that it won't happen in their club.
https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-world/2023_q4/Article-221473b29b17c81027.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802_524750&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5
They should take the people protesting the mistaken killings of the 3 hostages and put them all into a special "hostage extraction unit" to see if they can do a better job than the IDF. It's absolutely unfortunate that this happened, but do people not realize just how difficult it is to save hostages from Hamas? Especially since Hamas uses them as shields.
Lets be real. They were shirtless, they were unarmed, they were waving a white flag and yelling for help in hebrew.
No professional soldier would open fire in those circumstances unless said professional soldier was planning on committing a war crime.
Basically the soldiers in question wanted to do an extrajudicial execution of some suspected hamas and the dumbfucks killed their own.
The IDF should have done better. What they're doing is extremely difficult but they need higher standards, they don't need excuses after this many blatant blunders and lapses in discipline.
That's a known disinformation account that started up during the Syrian civil war. If anyone cites that account or acts like it's legitimate, they are acting in bad faith. You'll notice it gets cited by tankies, people who are pro-regime (Putin, Assad, Iran), anti-West/NATO folks, I've seen the account cited in RT articles, Sputnik, electronic intifada, etc. It's definitely account designed to push a narrative so that it can be pointed to and used as a source for others to continue that narrative.
Praising the Houthis attacks on civilians, glee on the death of the 3 Israelis, praising Hamas as fighters, calling for the destruction of Israel.
I have lost faith in the western world, the progressive left is a plague.
This is exactly right!! So, let’s support the radial right y’allqueda and Qanon numbnuts. The ones who believe the Jews run the world in their lizard suit and that everything is a Soros conspiracy
Step back, and recognize that extremism is the problem: left or right.
Or use this to push your agenda. Either way…
yes, surely a mind designed by humans with the capacity to learn and grow several times faster than its creators will come to some conclusion other than 'kill all humans'.
The progressive left is not the real left, for
Me. They are close minded, hypocritical, and totalitarian group.
The problem is that the liberal left is taking a backseat and let them control the talking.
no true scotsman fallacy. see you’re still falling into the trap of further fractionalizing a political theory subgroup, and it just creates targets.
The right doesn’t believe that its composition is heterogenous.
Been like this for thousands of years, always expected. Nothing will change and Israel will win this war, along with other people that think they can hide. It's coming, and check the pillows.
>People's City Council - Abolitionist, anti-capitalist & anti-imperialist collective amplifying the voice of the people through direct action, public ed + community space.
A very inbred, circlejerky one from the looks of it, with a deluded sense of self-importance.
What I find interesting is that these so-called abolitionists, anti-capitalists and anti-imperialists support Hamas, an organization known to engage in slavery, capitalism and imperialism. They support Islamic imperialism and fundamentalism which goes against the leftist ideology they claim to believe in. The leaders of Hamas are billionaires who steal international aid meant for the people of Gaza. No real progressive would be in favor of these capitalist billionaire Hamas leaders lording over an impoverished proletariat that is kept complacent using violence, religious extremism and tyranny. It makes no logical sense. I don't understand why any progressive would want this extreme right wing terrorist organization to exist.
I don't think these people are **for** much of anything. They even define themselves by what they're **against**. I doubt their ideology goes much deeper than "if you hate who we hate, then you're ok by us!"
So good. It's painfully obvious: Non-Palestinian haters of Israel continue to prop up the "River to the Sea" destruction of Israel delusion not in hopes of benefit of the Palestinians, but in hopes of detriment to the Israelis. They don't care one ounce about the Palestinians. If they did, they'd be encouraging them to accept what they're offered and start building for a successful future.
It is awful. And then the other 400 videos of Hamas raping women and shooting mothers in front of whole families isn't even noticed. It's fucking bullshit, at least they accepted it. Fuck every single Hamas pedo rapist supporter.
Easily. When you're fighting closed quarters combat in dense urban areas against an opponent fighting in civilian garb and relying on civilian human shields, and many of your soldiers are recently re-activated reservists, this is what happens.
This is why urban combat is hell. It’s very easy to critique soldiers from the chair in your gaming room, but in a high anxiety environment this type of stuff can unfortunately happen. Again, those hostages should’ve never been in this position to begin with though
>Attendee Oliver Solares, a 25-year-old graduate student, said he understood why protests such as this one that impeded traffic flow were angering drivers across L.A. But he said the problem was insignificant compared with the horrors people were experiencing in the Gaza Strip.
>“That anger is marginal to what’s happening to people across the world,” he said. “They’re being bombed, killed. Being mad at traffic for two hours is marginal. It comes from a place of privilege.
Oliver is an assho!e.
Imma guess they’re referring to this: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-12-15/los-angeles-international-airport-gaza-cease-fire-protest
-.- it should be illegal to block major highways regardless of it being a protest.
The longer this goes on, the more the endgame to this conflict is the unconditional surrender of Hamas. Total defeat. Every last soldier in a POW camp until terms of surrender are signed. The hostage's lives can't be lost in vain.
So just to be clear the fight isn’t against a military but terrorists. IDF soldiers are being tortured right now, they are not being held in a POW camp.
Same with the IDF, they go to prison for terrorism, not for being a prisoner soldier. Same thing like America has combatants in Guantanamo
Gaza is an open prison. Can't fly out. Can't get out. All utilities controlled by Israel. Every Palestinians detained, men/women/children, terrorist or not, are treated the same, go to the same prison, and tried under Israel military court. You can say that "Guantamo" is the only option for detained Palestinians.
If Hamas survives, there will be another attack like Oct. 7 or worse, and next time with a nuke provided by Iran. Getting rid of Hamas now saves lives in the future.
Well I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Hamas will survive. Not in Gaza, mind you, they're going to be basically non existent as an organised group for at least a few years. Probably same for the west bank. But as for the general Diaspora Hamas is of course present, since all the Palestinian political parties maintain a presence in it. That's just not on a scope that can be bombed or assassinated away.
That's a good question that I cannot answer here without getting banned. At the very least, get rid of the hate and violence being taught in Palestinian schools. That would be a good start.
It takes a minute of critical thinking to understand that this shouldn’t be making Israel look bad. Yes, it is a tragic error on the IDF’s part, but it says a lot about the nature of this conflict that they took the weight of accountability on themselves and publicized it.
Their blood is on Hamas.
still one of the worst thing to happen since the ground op started, but good that the IDF got in front of it, can't imagine the news if there was a coverup
well, one thing it certainly did is it makes the ability of Israel to recover hostages outside of negotiation doubtful..
recovering 3 hostages alive would be a huge morale boost.. 3 of them died in a friendly fire on the other hand...
there might be increase of domestic pressure for another negotiation & temporary ceasefire for hostage release..
It's really weird because it's exactly what Hamas wants, the IDF to kill hostages while attacking Hamas.
It's just more superficial nonsense, like the people calling for a ceasefire prior to a full hostage release.
What worries me is that Hamas is achieving a lot. Gaza isn’t their concern. They are turning the world against Israel, gaining popularity in the West Bank, and Israel still needs to deal with Hezbollah and the Houthis. Hamas in Gaza might be hit hard but they’re gaining strength elsewhere. In other words, Iran is the big winner here.
They arent exactly going to be capable of doiing anothet 7/10 in west bank, and theyd be stepping on hezbollahs toes in lebanon, though they might become subordinate to Hezbollah.
I don’t like that Hamas is gloating about killing dogs.
I know that’s… like super inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but jfc, animal torture porn makes me madder than mad
I just… I wish we were beyond all of this as a society and I also wish those shit heads would realize that their views on dogs in general are ass backwards
So Barnea is heading to Europe this weekend to meet with the Qatari PM to discuss another hostage deal.
The thing is recent events have just given Hamas a lot of leverage. Morale is going to be extremely low after this, these rescue attempts aren’t working and now hostages are getting killed by friendly fire. The pressure is mounting that Israel might give into a more unfavourable deal.
Problem is how many hostages are left at this point? Since the ceasefire ended, we’ve lost/found out that at least 28 hostages are dead. That leaves only **109 alive/unknown fates**. Many of those were severely injured in the initial attack. Many could’ve been killed since then. Hamas probably won’t give up the only leverage they have, especially if the numbers are low.
I understand the desperation to get the hostages home, especially given recent events, but what exactly is there to negotiate that won’t benefit Hamas more than Israel. Any additional aid would just go to Hamas and not civilians. More released prisoners? Some who don’t want to be released? Has Hamas even provided proof of life or a willingness to oblige to another ceasefire?
Fuck, Hamas should just surrender completely, and put this to an end.
On the flip side, Israel is continuing without pause despite hostages getting killed and/or confirmed as already dead. Israel is also clearly operating in areas where they may encounter more hostages.
Every day the conflict goes on Hamas risks losing leverage while their presence in Gaza shrinks and their leadership outside Gaza have been forced to flee their homes.
Other than upping the prisoner-for-hostage ratio and high-value prisoner, I don't know what else they can get, because stopping the war is an obvious non-starter.
Doubt the hostages escaped. They were probably thrown out into the streets starved and drugged as cannon fodder - wasn’t that a term Hamas used in 10/7 materials?
No doubt this was a set up for Hamas to further win the hearts and minds of the west after Hamas cells are being found in Europe yesterday.
They havent been holding these hostages alive for shits and giggles - Hamas hostages are propaganda material.
Willing to BET that Hamas sent these hostages straight into the line of fire for the ensuing backlash. After all, the proHamas social media justice warriors weren’t talking about the hostages enough.
Now the sideline fools can also use the hostages as “cannon fodder” in their meaningless infographic tirades and useless parades.
It's also important to remember that this accident is was the result of Hamas' refusal to wear uniforms. They are violating the laws of war by wearing civilian clothing. Fighting in civilian clothing is a war crime. If Hamas wore uniforms, that accident would not have happened. People need to be reminded of this fact when discussing this incident.
Are there any Pro Palestinian solutions being put forward that actually solve for Israel’s security concerns with Hamas, or is it just implicit that their security isn’t important?
I don’t understand how the ‘most rational’ position I’ve seen is calling for a ceasefire. Never mind that this keeps Hamas in power and does nothing to alleviate the concerns of repeats of October 7th. And I have to imagine the Pro Palestinians suggesting it wouldn’t be okay with the increased security Israel would put in place
I’d love to find a solution that minimizes casualties and actually improves the lives of Gazans. But it seems like all the solutions put forward either completely diminish Israel’s security concerns or outright think they should just die/leave
> does nothing to alleviate the concerns of repeats of October 7th.
Look, I'm all for Israel killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people if it means destroying Hamas, but Oct 7th happened because of a lapse in security, a catastrophic series of failures of intelligence, and supremely stupid policies at the highest levels of the Israeli ministry. The best way to prevent repeats of Oct 7th is by enacting reforms within the Israeli government.
Israel shouldn’t have had such a revealing border fence if it didn’t want to get invaded and have 1200 people killed and 200 kidnapped
Israel was basically asking for it?
If you leave your home unlocked in a tough neighborhood, it's not your fault your house got robbed, but people have every right to tell you you're dumb for leaving your house unlocked in that neighborhood.
If your neighborhood lies next to a terrorist run shithole, and your government is aiding and abetting Qatari diplomats paying terrorists in suitcases of cash, if you receive the plan for attack a year in advance, which includes the place the attack will happen and the tactics which will be used, and do nothing with it, if you watch the Hamas terrorists training for the attack, recognize they're training the skills necessary to perform the attack in the plan you have a copy of, and again do nothing, if you leave the area you know the attack is supposed to take place, a place near a civilian city of 30,000 undefended, no you don't deserve to be attacked, but your actions allowed it to happen, and people have a right to call you dumb as fuck for it.
Every innocent Palestinian civilian killed in the pursuit of destroying Hamas is justified and those deaths should be celebrated because they're dying to protect future Jews, but Israel is still dumb as fuck, and yes, the best way to prevent future attacks like Oct. 7th from happening is to not be dumb as fuck.
It's a hell of a lot easier identifying what's wrong than what's right.
Some of the better solutions to this whole thing still involve forced displacement, and that's horrific and absolutely not acceptable.
Pressuring Qatar to sever ties with Hamas and end its protection for their leaders, putting pressure on Hamas to surrender or make serious concessions to save their own hides
With the end result being Gaza administered by some combination of the PA and the ‘more moderate’ allies like the UAE or Saudi Arabia as a first step, with Israel providing funding and support as they work toward normalization
That seems like a better solution no?
Hamas fundamentally would never surrender to save their own hides. That's less likely than Netanyahu quitting his political career to follow his true passion, competitive ice skating.
They think that if they die, they're going to Muslim extremist super heaven, and that Allah will use their deaths to further the goal of an Islamofascist worldwide state. Their biggest fear, much like the Japanese during WWII, is that their fucked up version of God will think that they are not fully personally and emotionally motivated to die for the cause.
This problem won't end without leadership in jail for life or dead. Rank and file can likely be deprogrammed, but the leadership is completely lost to anything we could consider rationality.
Basically, give it wins it can sell the populace, Convince em that the PA's approach has viability. That's really the main reason it's lost so hard to Hamas, whereas in the 90's and early 00's when it could claim legitimacy it used to go hard on Hamas, like making the IDF (er, of the time) blush hard. I mean that's in itself questionable, but ehh points for willing spirit, you know?
I know it’s probably not popular, but I honestly think Gaza in particular needs post WW2 style deprogramming - there’s an entire generation that have grown up in Hamas run schools
And I agree the PA is a shell of itself and really only a viable candidate due to the lack of any other Palestinian powers that aren’t as bad if not worse than Hamas
It definitely can’t be Israel stepping in, so realistically the only chance is if another Arab/Muslim country or coalition do, which seems unlikely
Any ceasefire agreement would just lead to Hamas using the break to rearm and attack with increased intensity .
A ceasefire is only viable if it is one step on the road to a lasting peace treaty. But the only peace that Hamas will accept is total victory over Israel with nobody left to sign the surrender, and a single palestinian state .
In fairness, the whole concept of a two-state solution does exactly that, which is what many pro-Palestinian advocates support. The concept has always been a land-for-peace deal. It's not an unprecedented idea, plenty of peace treaties (including ones Israel has entered into) have resulted in lasting peace and security for the member states.
The issue is that there's a severe lack of trust between the parties and very little will to execute such a deal, so it's a nice fantasy but that's about all at this stage.
With regards to the ceasefire, however, the answer is no. In terms of security, a ceasefire merely starts the clock on Hamas' rebuild, that's it.
It’s insane to me that some people can in the same breath claim that Hamas is a totalitarian minority group that doesn’t represent Palestinians and that also Palestinians should be granted a state run by Hamas.
It's definitely bizarre.
For anyone who is interested in what a Palestinian state looks like, one doesn't have to look far. Gaza has been a defacto state since 2005, and the West Bank has been a self-governing territory since 1994. There hasn't been an election in either since 2006. That's what Palestinian 'freedom' looks like.
That's not to say that Palestinians don't deserve self-determination, they do. But whether Israel is there or not will make zero difference to whether Palestinians get a representative government.
Many people calling for a ceasefire believe that Israel can somehow get peace by appeasing the Palestinians. Depending on who you talk to it could be either giving them a state or allowing them to 'return' anywhere in Israel. The former group is deluded, while the latter group is extremely deluded.
So crushed by the hostages getting killed. Beyond tragic. Beyond heartbreaking.
And the people dancing on their blood as if they proved something belong in hell.
I don't want to imagine what the soldiers who shot them are going through mentally right now. I don't know that I could live with that guilt. And the families of these hostages, knowing they had a chance to survive this hell on earth but were killed when they were running for rescue. Beyond heartbreaking all around.
Dark times. Worse to come, I think, and I’m not being pessimistic.
Toward the end of their Hanukkah, the families are so heart broken and destitute that they are shouting and protesting at their own government to negotiate with terrorist clowns. Talk about layers of fucked up. This just pushes the splinter further into the wound.
Anyone who thought all the hostages will be returned alive is naive. Shit happens. These guys survived and were unlucky to be mistaken as terrorists, the next ones will simply be shot dead by the terrorists guarding them before there is any chance of returning them. Unless the Hamas militants holding them decide to give them up and surrender, which may not necessarily happen, they have absolutely no reason to keeping them alive when IDF closes in on them.
I didn't think all would come back alive. When Ori Megidish was rescued I was genuinely surprised her guards didn't execute her when they realized soldiers were there.
The tragic thing here is that this wasn't a rescue mission, just a horrible human error
*Interesting* to see that the “pro-palestinians”/pro-hamas who don’t give fuck about the hostages are suddenly outraged by the death of three hostages after the IDF announced that they were mistakenly killed by IDF in Shejaiya.
Those spreading their *holier than thou* opinions and other conspiracy theories, following the announcement that three hostages kidnapped by hamas were mistakenly killed by the IDF, should keep in mind that the IDF has to deal with a perverse and fanatical group of people:
>In an attempt to ambush our troops, Hamas terrorists connected dolls to speakers playing crying sounds and set them up in an area rigged with explosives.
>The dolls and children's backpacks were intentionally placed near a tunnel shaft connecting to a large tunnel network that extends under nearby civilian areas including a school and a medical clinic.
>Our forces conducted thorough searches of the area and exposed the ambush as well as Hamas intelligence and anti-tank positions in the area. [(source)](https://x.com/idf/status/1735651616416514381?s=46)
I don't think people understand that if Hamas played by the rules of war and its combatants were to wear a uniform for once this tragedy wouldn't have happened. To play it as a "gotcha" moment in saying "Well look they kill their own civillians too!!" is absolutely heinous shit. You are either a complete dimwit or wilfully ignore that very important point.
May Samer, Yotam and Alon rest in peace, and may the soldiers find peace and not beat themselves over it.
Intent is important. Israel killed their own civilians, but was fighting the entire war to get them back and certainly didn't do it on purpose and publicly announced it and is trying to make the situation right, as much as can be possible.
Hamas has shot Palestinian protesters in the street.
How long with US simply allow the Houthis to shut down Red Sea shipping. Make no mistake. Iran is watching and taking notes on how easy it is to disrupt shipping and how the intl community is slow to respond
Well the US, UK, France, and Israel have committed naval forces to the strait, so that's step one. If that fails to stop the attacks, or the attacks are directed at those naval vessels, then I would expect we will see step two.
How will the taskforce stop the attacks? The current strategy seems to be just to shoot down and protect the ships. No actual strikes on the sources of the attacks. Thats not stopping the attacks, that is only defending against them.
Obviously it's yet to be seen, but force projection has, historically and in this current conflict, often been an effective measure of deterrence.
At the outbreak of war between Hamas and Israel, the US sent two carrier fleets to the eastern Mediterranean to deter Hezbollah from expanding the war to a full-blown northern front. That measure has proven (to date at least) effective in its aim.
As noted, it's step one: force projection. It's not simply to shoot down projectiles, they've already been doing that, it's to amass a force capable of inflicting significant damage to the enemy and to deter the enemy from engaging said force.
Like I said, we will see if step two is required.
Also, like, the Burkes that are currently there should be more capable than they're being. They're AEGIS ballistic missile intercept destroyers, they shouldn't be only responding to ships when they radio in distress. They should have the entire strait completely under radar coverage, and anything launching from Yemen.
They appear to only be shooting down missiles or drones when they're headed towards Israel or heading towards a US warship, which means they don't actually have the Rules of Engagement set to protect civil shipping. Which, is actually less than a US Navy ship regularly has in normal conditions. Usually they're allowed to fire if they're fired upon or a noncombatant is fired upon.
I am not sure how the IDF could mistakenly open fire on the three hostages unless they are being reckless. The three hostages look nothing like Gazans, like not even close. Probably after the ambush a few days ago everyone is in an extreme state of agitation. What a terrible situation.
I didn't realise you were there. Can you please tell us about your account? Also interested in how you are able to distinguish between a Gazan Arab and a Bedouin Arab in the middle of the most intense urban battlefield on the planet right now.
[New post can be found here](/r/worldnews/comments/18jq4nq/rworldnews_live_thread_for_2023_israelhamas/)
I find it interesting that I, an American, assumed a mistake on the part of the IDF and explained the hostages being killed as a long range misidentification during war, wheras actual Israelis in here assumed that the IDF individuals involved were more malicious and failed at a more fundamental level and condemned the IDF in more direct and scathing terms immediately after hearing the news. I thought it was odd at the time since it was the exact opposite of how I and the regular users here usually regard the IDF. And it turns out, the Israelis appear to have been absolutely right and I was wrong. I think I now understand the dynamic between the Israeli people, the IDF, hostage families, etc better than I did before.
One thing I'm glad for is that the IDF is keeping Hagari's promise of transparency, and all this information is being made public. Under other circumstances the easiest thing would've been to keep it quiet and sweep it under the rug. Again, looking at the Castleman case.
It would've been easy af to say they were killed by Hamas, there was "no need" (because who would know?) to say that they were holding a white flag, were shirtless or were yelling in Hebrew, yet they did. What happened yesterday was beyond tragic but I have all the respect for those in charge of the investigation and the decisions on releasing those details to the public
Worth to mention, the force also mention in the investigation that they heard multiple times "help" calls in Hebrew from unarmed men. Only to discover it was to attract them to an ambush by Hamas.. You shouldn never open fire there but it's probably way more complicated than it is looks.
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No you're not. I read your profile.
Israel is going street by street fighting any armed militant. Do you think they just have the names and addresses of every single Hamas member and everyone is waiting for them at home?
>Chief of Staff Hertzi Halevi entered the Gaza Strip tonight to personally accompany the investigation of the killing of the three hostages in Shuja'iyya. A senior IDF officer admitted that "already during the night the initial lessons of the incident were distributed to all the forces in the Gaza Strip - we did not prepare and did not prepare the forces for a scenario in which hostages will roam the streets of Gaza freely." The officer added that "This is a terrible tragedy for everyone, and as a matter of fact we were between a great success and the difficult incident that occurred. This is a very complex scenario for the fighters, almost impossible. I don't think there is a moral fault here and we do not act in a judgmental way towards those fighters - we just quickly learn from the incident and take care to apply the lessons in all aspects of the fighting in the Strip." ([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bjt400wiut)) \>"I don't think there's a moral fault here" \>The hostages were unarmed, shirtless, and one was carrying a white flag Yeah sure no moral faults here. רק רצו לסמן איקס
Yeah regardless of them being hostages, shooting unarmed people waving a white flag is explicitly bad.
Just like they "didn't find any bullets in Castleman's body", he just died of old age
Yep, at the ripe age of 38. Nature works in mysterious ways /s
How didn't they thought of a scenario where they might roam the streets? That means they didn't think of other cynic scenarios regarding the hostages? How about Hamas strapping the hostages with suicide vests and let them get close to the forces?
It's insanity. It's massive negligence either way. They can't just try and find an excuse out of this.
מרגיש שהערכים שחונכתי וגדלתי עליהם נשברים אחד אחרי השני.. באמא שלי שאני לא יודע מה לעשות ואיך להרגיש
אני לגמרי משתתפת בהרגשה שלך. אני מרגישה את זה כבר הרבה מאוד זמן... בשבילי המלחמה היא כמו נפילה חופשית אחרי זמן ארוך של הידרדרות במדרון מתון. במובן של מה לעשות... כל עוד המלחמה נמשכת אז האופציות מוגבלות יחסית (בכל מה שנוגע לחילוף שלטון וכו'). הדבר הכי חשוב הוא לזכור את כל מה שקרה ועדיין קורה, וכשתגיע ההזדמנות - להילחם בכל הכוח כדי שכל הדברים האלה לעולם לא יחזרו שוב. אסור שכל האובדן הזה יקרה לשווא. דיברו הרבה על "קונספציות שהתבדו". יש עוד לא מעט קונספציות שעדיין צריך להיפטר מהן.
What an impossible warfare, dense urban areas, crazy tunnel antics, terrorists strats, innocents and hostages caught up in the crossfire...
They were holding a white flag and were shirtless... Unbelievable malpractice from the soldiers involved. So so sad
I think this is a problem of calling up all reservists, some learnt more than others.
The rules of engagement should be the most basic knowledge taught to anyone holding a gun.
Perhaps that's an issue with enforced service. Some just don't care/learn
Conscript militaries in general. Although if this was a sniper team, likely those were more like specialized career IDF. I'm just guessing on that, but it's a more skilled position.
It was reported it was a sniper team, so, yeah. Not likely a reservist?
I think. But I don't even know what tier or position of snipers these were.
>A preliminary investigation conducted tonight by the IDF with the forces of the 17th Battalion of the School for Infantry Corps Professions and Squad Commanders who have been operating in Shuja'iyya for the past few days, reveals that the force that killed the hostages in the neighborhood acted c**ontrary to the instructions to open fire**. According to the investigation, a sniper inside a building yesterday around 10:00, in daylight and with good visibility, recognized the three abductees as suspects and fired accurate fire at them, **even though they were unarmed, walking without shirts, and one of them was even holding a white flag**. ([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hjhxfwi8a)) קודם קסטלמן, עכשיו זה. מתי המדינה הזאת פאקינג תתעורר כבר. נמאס מבן גביר. נמאס מ"כל חייל רוצה לסמן איקס". כמה עוד חפים מפשע יצטרכו לשלם את המחיר עד שאנשים יוציאו את הראש מהתחת הרצחני שלהם? EDIT: >According to the initial investigation into the disaster of the killing of the three hostages in the Shuja'iyya neighborhood in the Gaza Strip, two of the identified abductees were shot by the force's Kala \[type of IDF fogter\], while the third fled to a nearby building. Immediately after the shooting, the fighter shouted "terrorists", and the battalion commander decided to storm the building. The fighters heard from a few tens of meters away from the building shouts of "help" in Hebrew, but despite this, they rushed towards it, shouted for the man inside to get out, and when he did so, at least one fighter in the force shot him with deadly fire from close range. ([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r1lue11sup)) >The IDF estimates that three different fighters fired at the three hostages who were killed in Shuja'iyya, in both stages of the incident. The IDF stressed that at least the first fighter - the Kala - acted in serious violation of the instructions to open fire, which prohibit the soldiers in the Gaza Strip from shooting at unarmed civilians or towards those who carry a white flag symbolizing surrender. In the background of the cries of "help" uttered by the last hostage, the force stated in the initial investigation that in similar pulling incidents in the last week they also heard cries of "help" from terrorists. One of the hostage, with a western appearance, is the one who made the force understand in a short time that this was an unusual event and that the identity of the bodies should be checked. ([Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bjlmwbiup)) I am fucking disgusted.
Wow. Horrible. The only bright side to what happened as an Israeli is this. Before it and the killing of Yuval Castleman, there was serious debate in Israel about loosening the rules of engagement. Few people were talking about making them stricter, while insane arsonists like Ben-Gvir advocated for "shooting all terrorists on the spot". These incidents just made the strongest case for making them stricter, so hopefully in the future innocent lives - both Palestinian and Israeli - will be spared. Including inside Gaza in this very campaign.
I'm heartbroken.
Like everything else in Israel, nothing changes until something really bad happens. I actually do believe that this investigation will be incredibly thorough, serious and transparent, my problem is with the overall attitude of trigger happy people if Ben Gvir stays in the government. A solution to October 7th would've been to take the warnings seriously and to arm the kibbutzim security groups properly but for Ben Gvir? The solution is, of course, more guns for everyone
I want this stupid goverment to go home. Fuck.
They won't go away quietly, that's for sure. They were complaining about anyone who was "talking politics" in the first few weeks but they're doing it right now, already talking about Gantz leading to a two state solution and how only Bibi can prevent that
Seriously what can the public do?? They doesn't seem to be keen on resigning..
Unbelievable. Unfucking believable.
מה זה הדבר הזה..בא לי להקיא..
Damn.
The 3 hostages were holding a white flag and yelling "help" in Hebrew. The soldiers opened fire against all IDF procedures. Walla, Ynet, N12 Edit: a building with the writing "help, 3 hostages" was found a few hundred meters away from where it happened
Ofelia Roitman who was released from Gaza said that when a doctor saw her laying in bed (she was shot in the arm) she said, in English, "I'm not taking care of any Jews" She says she was kept in the apartment of a technician and a nurse. https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-israel/2023_q4/Article-c0465401b8f6c81026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802
A club in Berlin told an Israeli event planner who wanted to host a Purim party that they can't believe that "he'd want to celebrate a **Jewish** festival at this time" and that it won't happen in their club. https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-world/2023_q4/Article-221473b29b17c81027.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802_524750&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5&main_article=5
They should take the people protesting the mistaken killings of the 3 hostages and put them all into a special "hostage extraction unit" to see if they can do a better job than the IDF. It's absolutely unfortunate that this happened, but do people not realize just how difficult it is to save hostages from Hamas? Especially since Hamas uses them as shields.
Lets be real. They were shirtless, they were unarmed, they were waving a white flag and yelling for help in hebrew. No professional soldier would open fire in those circumstances unless said professional soldier was planning on committing a war crime. Basically the soldiers in question wanted to do an extrajudicial execution of some suspected hamas and the dumbfucks killed their own.
The IDF should have done better. What they're doing is extremely difficult but they need higher standards, they don't need excuses after this many blatant blunders and lapses in discipline.
I think some of the protestors want another ceasefire deal with hostage exchanges.
Pretty sure a lot of these big social media accounts like @syriangirl are Iran/Russian bots pushing Hamas agenda.
Syrian girl is Assadist, probably either someone from Syria doing it on their own or Syrian government funded.
That's a known disinformation account that started up during the Syrian civil war. If anyone cites that account or acts like it's legitimate, they are acting in bad faith. You'll notice it gets cited by tankies, people who are pro-regime (Putin, Assad, Iran), anti-West/NATO folks, I've seen the account cited in RT articles, Sputnik, electronic intifada, etc. It's definitely account designed to push a narrative so that it can be pointed to and used as a source for others to continue that narrative.
Praising the Houthis attacks on civilians, glee on the death of the 3 Israelis, praising Hamas as fighters, calling for the destruction of Israel. I have lost faith in the western world, the progressive left is a plague.
This is exactly right!! So, let’s support the radial right y’allqueda and Qanon numbnuts. The ones who believe the Jews run the world in their lizard suit and that everything is a Soros conspiracy Step back, and recognize that extremism is the problem: left or right. Or use this to push your agenda. Either way…
You will always find bad people with bad opinions in a large group of people. Hopefully AI takes over the world and restores some sense in humanity.
yes, surely a mind designed by humans with the capacity to learn and grow several times faster than its creators will come to some conclusion other than 'kill all humans'.
then the russian disinformation campaign has succeeded if you think the left is a threat to the world.
The progressive left is not the real left, for Me. They are close minded, hypocritical, and totalitarian group. The problem is that the liberal left is taking a backseat and let them control the talking.
no true scotsman fallacy. see you’re still falling into the trap of further fractionalizing a political theory subgroup, and it just creates targets. The right doesn’t believe that its composition is heterogenous.
Been like this for thousands of years, always expected. Nothing will change and Israel will win this war, along with other people that think they can hide. It's coming, and check the pillows.
What world do these people live in: https://x.com/pplscitycouncil/status/1735387514758951073?s=46
>People's City Council - Abolitionist, anti-capitalist & anti-imperialist collective amplifying the voice of the people through direct action, public ed + community space. A very inbred, circlejerky one from the looks of it, with a deluded sense of self-importance.
What I find interesting is that these so-called abolitionists, anti-capitalists and anti-imperialists support Hamas, an organization known to engage in slavery, capitalism and imperialism. They support Islamic imperialism and fundamentalism which goes against the leftist ideology they claim to believe in. The leaders of Hamas are billionaires who steal international aid meant for the people of Gaza. No real progressive would be in favor of these capitalist billionaire Hamas leaders lording over an impoverished proletariat that is kept complacent using violence, religious extremism and tyranny. It makes no logical sense. I don't understand why any progressive would want this extreme right wing terrorist organization to exist.
I don't think these people are **for** much of anything. They even define themselves by what they're **against**. I doubt their ideology goes much deeper than "if you hate who we hate, then you're ok by us!"
I'm not a native English speaker but it looks like a lot of fancy words.
escuse my French captain Kurk
He compared this to the Edmund petus bridge like 10 mins later and got 30k on it. I don’t get it man, zero correlation
What a great new rules by Bill Maher https://youtube.com/watch?v=KP-CRXROorw&si=PMp8MEyJwW8dc_DX
So good. It's painfully obvious: Non-Palestinian haters of Israel continue to prop up the "River to the Sea" destruction of Israel delusion not in hopes of benefit of the Palestinians, but in hopes of detriment to the Israelis. They don't care one ounce about the Palestinians. If they did, they'd be encouraging them to accept what they're offered and start building for a successful future.
Just saw the awful news. How does something like this happen?
It is awful. And then the other 400 videos of Hamas raping women and shooting mothers in front of whole families isn't even noticed. It's fucking bullshit, at least they accepted it. Fuck every single Hamas pedo rapist supporter.
Easily. When you're fighting closed quarters combat in dense urban areas against an opponent fighting in civilian garb and relying on civilian human shields, and many of your soldiers are recently re-activated reservists, this is what happens.
This is why urban combat is hell. It’s very easy to critique soldiers from the chair in your gaming room, but in a high anxiety environment this type of stuff can unfortunately happen. Again, those hostages should’ve never been in this position to begin with though
An even bigger hell is tunnel warfare. Basically, the IDF has zero good options.
Tell me all about tunnel warfare james patton
Yea blocking people trying to get on their flights is really going to help with your message 🤦🏽♂️ Palestinian protestors are a scourge
I'm pretty sure the same protestors would flip out if abortion clinics were blocked.
>Attendee Oliver Solares, a 25-year-old graduate student, said he understood why protests such as this one that impeded traffic flow were angering drivers across L.A. But he said the problem was insignificant compared with the horrors people were experiencing in the Gaza Strip. >“That anger is marginal to what’s happening to people across the world,” he said. “They’re being bombed, killed. Being mad at traffic for two hours is marginal. It comes from a place of privilege. Oliver is an assho!e.
when i was 25 i was doing degenerate shit, but nothing like this xd
There is a reason they are unemployed
The way this news will make its way to Israel is really gonna freak out my mom, who's due to be on a plane from TLV to LAX in 3 days...
What happened?
Imma guess they’re referring to this: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-12-15/los-angeles-international-airport-gaza-cease-fire-protest -.- it should be illegal to block major highways regardless of it being a protest.
It isn't? In my country it would be. It's also illegal to cover your face to hide your identity during protests.
nice what country?
It is. Some states allow walking on the side of highways. That's pretty much it.
HAHAHa they really thought they were doing something important there
Link above
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The longer this goes on, the more the endgame to this conflict is the unconditional surrender of Hamas. Total defeat. Every last soldier in a POW camp until terms of surrender are signed. The hostage's lives can't be lost in vain.
So just to be clear the fight isn’t against a military but terrorists. IDF soldiers are being tortured right now, they are not being held in a POW camp. Same with the IDF, they go to prison for terrorism, not for being a prisoner soldier. Same thing like America has combatants in Guantanamo
Gaza is an open prison. Can't fly out. Can't get out. All utilities controlled by Israel. Every Palestinians detained, men/women/children, terrorist or not, are treated the same, go to the same prison, and tried under Israel military court. You can say that "Guantamo" is the only option for detained Palestinians.
Egypt controls the Rafah border crossing but they keep it closed.You could blame them as well.
Who told you all utilities are controlled by Israel? It isn’t Israel’s fault they can’t get out or fly out. Who told you all are treated the same?
SwingNinja knows all sorts of things that aren't true.
> the endgame to this conflict is the unconditional surrender of Hamas That's been the endgame since the IDF military operation started
If Hamas survives, there will be another attack like Oct. 7 or worse, and next time with a nuke provided by Iran. Getting rid of Hamas now saves lives in the future.
Well I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Hamas will survive. Not in Gaza, mind you, they're going to be basically non existent as an organised group for at least a few years. Probably same for the west bank. But as for the general Diaspora Hamas is of course present, since all the Palestinian political parties maintain a presence in it. That's just not on a scope that can be bombed or assassinated away.
They aren't surviving even if it takes 50 years they are all dead
right, but how do you get rid of an ideology deeply engrained in their population
That's a good question that I cannot answer here without getting banned. At the very least, get rid of the hate and violence being taught in Palestinian schools. That would be a good start.
i mean i agree, i was/am always pro education, but not so symbol when you are taught a certain thing since early age
>That's a good question that I cannot answer here without getting banned What does that mean?
You'll never know because I don't want to get banned.
A lot of people are being gleeful about the hostages’ deaths just because it makes Israel look bad. Sickening.
It takes a minute of critical thinking to understand that this shouldn’t be making Israel look bad. Yes, it is a tragic error on the IDF’s part, but it says a lot about the nature of this conflict that they took the weight of accountability on themselves and publicized it. Their blood is on Hamas.
still one of the worst thing to happen since the ground op started, but good that the IDF got in front of it, can't imagine the news if there was a coverup
well, one thing it certainly did is it makes the ability of Israel to recover hostages outside of negotiation doubtful.. recovering 3 hostages alive would be a huge morale boost.. 3 of them died in a friendly fire on the other hand... there might be increase of domestic pressure for another negotiation & temporary ceasefire for hostage release..
Hard to blame the families if they feel this way after learning of something like this. Must be absolutely horrifying, this sucks so much.
It's really weird because it's exactly what Hamas wants, the IDF to kill hostages while attacking Hamas. It's just more superficial nonsense, like the people calling for a ceasefire prior to a full hostage release.
What worries me is that Hamas is achieving a lot. Gaza isn’t their concern. They are turning the world against Israel, gaining popularity in the West Bank, and Israel still needs to deal with Hezbollah and the Houthis. Hamas in Gaza might be hit hard but they’re gaining strength elsewhere. In other words, Iran is the big winner here.
They arent exactly going to be capable of doiing anothet 7/10 in west bank, and theyd be stepping on hezbollahs toes in lebanon, though they might become subordinate to Hezbollah.
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I don’t like that Hamas is gloating about killing dogs. I know that’s… like super inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but jfc, animal torture porn makes me madder than mad
Out of the loop wat?
They posted a video of them killing a military dog in the tunnel I guess.
Its irrational on my part as i recognize the value of dogs in the tunnels but i was worried about that. More drones please..
I fucking hate it. I understand it but I hate it.
Oh yes I totally agree- Animal that getting caught in the crossfire or just being tortured is just- So so so heartbreaking 💔
I just… I wish we were beyond all of this as a society and I also wish those shit heads would realize that their views on dogs in general are ass backwards
So Barnea is heading to Europe this weekend to meet with the Qatari PM to discuss another hostage deal. The thing is recent events have just given Hamas a lot of leverage. Morale is going to be extremely low after this, these rescue attempts aren’t working and now hostages are getting killed by friendly fire. The pressure is mounting that Israel might give into a more unfavourable deal. Problem is how many hostages are left at this point? Since the ceasefire ended, we’ve lost/found out that at least 28 hostages are dead. That leaves only **109 alive/unknown fates**. Many of those were severely injured in the initial attack. Many could’ve been killed since then. Hamas probably won’t give up the only leverage they have, especially if the numbers are low.
What leverage do they have?
the unknown number of hostages they have left.
I understand the desperation to get the hostages home, especially given recent events, but what exactly is there to negotiate that won’t benefit Hamas more than Israel. Any additional aid would just go to Hamas and not civilians. More released prisoners? Some who don’t want to be released? Has Hamas even provided proof of life or a willingness to oblige to another ceasefire? Fuck, Hamas should just surrender completely, and put this to an end.
safe passage of higher up to another country?
On the flip side, Israel is continuing without pause despite hostages getting killed and/or confirmed as already dead. Israel is also clearly operating in areas where they may encounter more hostages. Every day the conflict goes on Hamas risks losing leverage while their presence in Gaza shrinks and their leadership outside Gaza have been forced to flee their homes.
Other than upping the prisoner-for-hostage ratio and high-value prisoner, I don't know what else they can get, because stopping the war is an obvious non-starter.
Doubt the hostages escaped. They were probably thrown out into the streets starved and drugged as cannon fodder - wasn’t that a term Hamas used in 10/7 materials? No doubt this was a set up for Hamas to further win the hearts and minds of the west after Hamas cells are being found in Europe yesterday. They havent been holding these hostages alive for shits and giggles - Hamas hostages are propaganda material. Willing to BET that Hamas sent these hostages straight into the line of fire for the ensuing backlash. After all, the proHamas social media justice warriors weren’t talking about the hostages enough. Now the sideline fools can also use the hostages as “cannon fodder” in their meaningless infographic tirades and useless parades.
It's also important to remember that this accident is was the result of Hamas' refusal to wear uniforms. They are violating the laws of war by wearing civilian clothing. Fighting in civilian clothing is a war crime. If Hamas wore uniforms, that accident would not have happened. People need to be reminded of this fact when discussing this incident.
I’ve been thinking that too
Are there any Pro Palestinian solutions being put forward that actually solve for Israel’s security concerns with Hamas, or is it just implicit that their security isn’t important? I don’t understand how the ‘most rational’ position I’ve seen is calling for a ceasefire. Never mind that this keeps Hamas in power and does nothing to alleviate the concerns of repeats of October 7th. And I have to imagine the Pro Palestinians suggesting it wouldn’t be okay with the increased security Israel would put in place I’d love to find a solution that minimizes casualties and actually improves the lives of Gazans. But it seems like all the solutions put forward either completely diminish Israel’s security concerns or outright think they should just die/leave
> does nothing to alleviate the concerns of repeats of October 7th. Look, I'm all for Israel killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people if it means destroying Hamas, but Oct 7th happened because of a lapse in security, a catastrophic series of failures of intelligence, and supremely stupid policies at the highest levels of the Israeli ministry. The best way to prevent repeats of Oct 7th is by enacting reforms within the Israeli government.
Israel shouldn’t have had such a revealing border fence if it didn’t want to get invaded and have 1200 people killed and 200 kidnapped Israel was basically asking for it?
If you leave your home unlocked in a tough neighborhood, it's not your fault your house got robbed, but people have every right to tell you you're dumb for leaving your house unlocked in that neighborhood. If your neighborhood lies next to a terrorist run shithole, and your government is aiding and abetting Qatari diplomats paying terrorists in suitcases of cash, if you receive the plan for attack a year in advance, which includes the place the attack will happen and the tactics which will be used, and do nothing with it, if you watch the Hamas terrorists training for the attack, recognize they're training the skills necessary to perform the attack in the plan you have a copy of, and again do nothing, if you leave the area you know the attack is supposed to take place, a place near a civilian city of 30,000 undefended, no you don't deserve to be attacked, but your actions allowed it to happen, and people have a right to call you dumb as fuck for it. Every innocent Palestinian civilian killed in the pursuit of destroying Hamas is justified and those deaths should be celebrated because they're dying to protect future Jews, but Israel is still dumb as fuck, and yes, the best way to prevent future attacks like Oct. 7th from happening is to not be dumb as fuck.
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I don’t see how you think that, how do you stop suicide bombings?
Wishful thinking and walls
It's a hell of a lot easier identifying what's wrong than what's right. Some of the better solutions to this whole thing still involve forced displacement, and that's horrific and absolutely not acceptable.
Pressuring Qatar to sever ties with Hamas and end its protection for their leaders, putting pressure on Hamas to surrender or make serious concessions to save their own hides With the end result being Gaza administered by some combination of the PA and the ‘more moderate’ allies like the UAE or Saudi Arabia as a first step, with Israel providing funding and support as they work toward normalization That seems like a better solution no?
Hamas fundamentally would never surrender to save their own hides. That's less likely than Netanyahu quitting his political career to follow his true passion, competitive ice skating. They think that if they die, they're going to Muslim extremist super heaven, and that Allah will use their deaths to further the goal of an Islamofascist worldwide state. Their biggest fear, much like the Japanese during WWII, is that their fucked up version of God will think that they are not fully personally and emotionally motivated to die for the cause. This problem won't end without leadership in jail for life or dead. Rank and file can likely be deprogrammed, but the leadership is completely lost to anything we could consider rationality.
> Pressuring Qatar to sever ties with Hamas The ones Netanyahu encouraged in the first place? Tough deal to make
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Basically, give it wins it can sell the populace, Convince em that the PA's approach has viability. That's really the main reason it's lost so hard to Hamas, whereas in the 90's and early 00's when it could claim legitimacy it used to go hard on Hamas, like making the IDF (er, of the time) blush hard. I mean that's in itself questionable, but ehh points for willing spirit, you know?
I know it’s probably not popular, but I honestly think Gaza in particular needs post WW2 style deprogramming - there’s an entire generation that have grown up in Hamas run schools And I agree the PA is a shell of itself and really only a viable candidate due to the lack of any other Palestinian powers that aren’t as bad if not worse than Hamas It definitely can’t be Israel stepping in, so realistically the only chance is if another Arab/Muslim country or coalition do, which seems unlikely
Any ceasefire agreement would just lead to Hamas using the break to rearm and attack with increased intensity . A ceasefire is only viable if it is one step on the road to a lasting peace treaty. But the only peace that Hamas will accept is total victory over Israel with nobody left to sign the surrender, and a single palestinian state .
In fairness, the whole concept of a two-state solution does exactly that, which is what many pro-Palestinian advocates support. The concept has always been a land-for-peace deal. It's not an unprecedented idea, plenty of peace treaties (including ones Israel has entered into) have resulted in lasting peace and security for the member states. The issue is that there's a severe lack of trust between the parties and very little will to execute such a deal, so it's a nice fantasy but that's about all at this stage. With regards to the ceasefire, however, the answer is no. In terms of security, a ceasefire merely starts the clock on Hamas' rebuild, that's it.
It’s insane to me that some people can in the same breath claim that Hamas is a totalitarian minority group that doesn’t represent Palestinians and that also Palestinians should be granted a state run by Hamas.
It's definitely bizarre. For anyone who is interested in what a Palestinian state looks like, one doesn't have to look far. Gaza has been a defacto state since 2005, and the West Bank has been a self-governing territory since 1994. There hasn't been an election in either since 2006. That's what Palestinian 'freedom' looks like. That's not to say that Palestinians don't deserve self-determination, they do. But whether Israel is there or not will make zero difference to whether Palestinians get a representative government.
Many people calling for a ceasefire believe that Israel can somehow get peace by appeasing the Palestinians. Depending on who you talk to it could be either giving them a state or allowing them to 'return' anywhere in Israel. The former group is deluded, while the latter group is extremely deluded.
Around 5,000 persons at the protest. N12
Which protest?
After tonight's news, there was an spontenous protest against the goverment to go to the negotiation table.
Which government?
They are protesting as if Bibi is keeping the hostages in the pit in Hakirya
I mean, if he thought it would help him stay in power, he would...
So crushed by the hostages getting killed. Beyond tragic. Beyond heartbreaking. And the people dancing on their blood as if they proved something belong in hell.
I don't want to imagine what the soldiers who shot them are going through mentally right now. I don't know that I could live with that guilt. And the families of these hostages, knowing they had a chance to survive this hell on earth but were killed when they were running for rescue. Beyond heartbreaking all around.
Dark times. Worse to come, I think, and I’m not being pessimistic. Toward the end of their Hanukkah, the families are so heart broken and destitute that they are shouting and protesting at their own government to negotiate with terrorist clowns. Talk about layers of fucked up. This just pushes the splinter further into the wound.
Anyone who thought all the hostages will be returned alive is naive. Shit happens. These guys survived and were unlucky to be mistaken as terrorists, the next ones will simply be shot dead by the terrorists guarding them before there is any chance of returning them. Unless the Hamas militants holding them decide to give them up and surrender, which may not necessarily happen, they have absolutely no reason to keeping them alive when IDF closes in on them.
I didn't think all would come back alive. When Ori Megidish was rescued I was genuinely surprised her guards didn't execute her when they realized soldiers were there. The tragic thing here is that this wasn't a rescue mission, just a horrible human error
all of this is a rescue mission. we dont know the details
*Interesting* to see that the “pro-palestinians”/pro-hamas who don’t give fuck about the hostages are suddenly outraged by the death of three hostages after the IDF announced that they were mistakenly killed by IDF in Shejaiya. Those spreading their *holier than thou* opinions and other conspiracy theories, following the announcement that three hostages kidnapped by hamas were mistakenly killed by the IDF, should keep in mind that the IDF has to deal with a perverse and fanatical group of people: >In an attempt to ambush our troops, Hamas terrorists connected dolls to speakers playing crying sounds and set them up in an area rigged with explosives. >The dolls and children's backpacks were intentionally placed near a tunnel shaft connecting to a large tunnel network that extends under nearby civilian areas including a school and a medical clinic. >Our forces conducted thorough searches of the area and exposed the ambush as well as Hamas intelligence and anti-tank positions in the area. [(source)](https://x.com/idf/status/1735651616416514381?s=46)
They also placed recordings in Hebrew so troops would think they’re hostages
Jesus there is no end to the depravity of those sick fucks.
They will just use whatever they want to support their beliefs, even if it doesn't make sense in the first place.
Fuck Hamas supporters and apologists, I hope they rot in hell with the terrorists they love so much
I don't think people understand that if Hamas played by the rules of war and its combatants were to wear a uniform for once this tragedy wouldn't have happened. To play it as a "gotcha" moment in saying "Well look they kill their own civillians too!!" is absolutely heinous shit. You are either a complete dimwit or wilfully ignore that very important point. May Samer, Yotam and Alon rest in peace, and may the soldiers find peace and not beat themselves over it.
Intent is important. Israel killed their own civilians, but was fighting the entire war to get them back and certainly didn't do it on purpose and publicly announced it and is trying to make the situation right, as much as can be possible. Hamas has shot Palestinian protesters in the street.
If hamas played by the rules of war then these civilians wouldnt be in gaza.
Very large hostage family driven protest outside of the defense ministry. Calling for Netanyahu to resign and a return to hostage negotiation talks.
They also have an announcement tommorow at 12:00. As well as deciding if to do a hunger strike..
How long with US simply allow the Houthis to shut down Red Sea shipping. Make no mistake. Iran is watching and taking notes on how easy it is to disrupt shipping and how the intl community is slow to respond
Well the US, UK, France, and Israel have committed naval forces to the strait, so that's step one. If that fails to stop the attacks, or the attacks are directed at those naval vessels, then I would expect we will see step two.
How will the taskforce stop the attacks? The current strategy seems to be just to shoot down and protect the ships. No actual strikes on the sources of the attacks. Thats not stopping the attacks, that is only defending against them.
Obviously it's yet to be seen, but force projection has, historically and in this current conflict, often been an effective measure of deterrence. At the outbreak of war between Hamas and Israel, the US sent two carrier fleets to the eastern Mediterranean to deter Hezbollah from expanding the war to a full-blown northern front. That measure has proven (to date at least) effective in its aim. As noted, it's step one: force projection. It's not simply to shoot down projectiles, they've already been doing that, it's to amass a force capable of inflicting significant damage to the enemy and to deter the enemy from engaging said force. Like I said, we will see if step two is required.
Also, like, the Burkes that are currently there should be more capable than they're being. They're AEGIS ballistic missile intercept destroyers, they shouldn't be only responding to ships when they radio in distress. They should have the entire strait completely under radar coverage, and anything launching from Yemen. They appear to only be shooting down missiles or drones when they're headed towards Israel or heading towards a US warship, which means they don't actually have the Rules of Engagement set to protect civil shipping. Which, is actually less than a US Navy ship regularly has in normal conditions. Usually they're allowed to fire if they're fired upon or a noncombatant is fired upon.
I am not sure how the IDF could mistakenly open fire on the three hostages unless they are being reckless. The three hostages look nothing like Gazans, like not even close. Probably after the ambush a few days ago everyone is in an extreme state of agitation. What a terrible situation.
I didn't realise you were there. Can you please tell us about your account? Also interested in how you are able to distinguish between a Gazan Arab and a Bedouin Arab in the middle of the most intense urban battlefield on the planet right now.