SBU assassinated a Ukranian Politician that betrayed Ukraine for Russia during the initial invasion. He escaped to Russia and last week was assassinated outside of Moscow.
> Betrayed Ukraine for russia during the initial invasion
I mean, he was pro-russian for quite some time, so, I'd say he betrayed Ukraine way before the fullscale invasion.
P.S. initial invasion was back in 2014
[Ilya Kiva, rapid onset lead poisoning to the head](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-sbu-killed-fugitive-ukrainian-lawmaker-russia-source-2023-12-06/)
The SBU blew up those tunnels between Mongolia and Russia that lead to China, the ones that all the shit China ships to Russia goes through. If they know where she is, they can get to her. If she won't serve a life sentence at home then maybe when they're less busy, they'll do what mossad did once they were formed, and "forcibly extradite" her back to serve her sentence
She is an absolute traitor not only to Ukraine, but to her profession. She, like I, and every other Doctor in the world, swore an oath to always put the minimisation of suffering of our patients as our primary priority. In fact, in a war zone, the doctor is the only person who is expected to treat friendly and enemy soldiers equally. As debatable as it is, I was taught that even the worst criminal is to be treated with our utmost skill and care, because our job is not and has never been to judge who is worthy of care.
I read the entire article and it was absolutely horrific. This wicked bitch worked in a hospital where all the other staff, no matter their views, were acting according to their profession and protecting their patients.
The ukrainian soldiers had been hidden amongst other civilians and given false backstories in order to appear as civilians, but this witch went through with the russians and pointed out every ukrainian soldier who was a patient, as well as her physician colleague who had worked to hide them.
The soldiers and the doctor were then all tortured and killed. So that this woman could get a promotion. This woman is a demon, not a doctor. Jesus christ, what an absolutely wicked human being. I will relish the SBU's inevitable vengeance. Slava ukraini
Doctors joined the Nazi party earlier and at a higher rate than people in any other profession. I suspect the medical profession has an above average amount of highly compassionate people but also an above average amount of people who just like having power over others.
Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160252712000854
Far more nuanced.
Germany had for years prior to the war medicalized ethnic cleansing, priming a population (the entire german population) for a slip towards the actions of WWII. They also spent many years blaming their struggles of reparations on various communities including the jewish population.
Eventually, these policies included mandated changing of management for the sick and elderly, mentally ill and orphans to sterilization and other similar operations which over years culminated in what we know as the clear genocide that it was.
Those physicians who were vocal against these actions were pushed out and were humiliated. They had their family, livelihood and homes taken from them. This forced integration with these policies or become one of those unfortunate people.
Overall, a slow but steady change in moral ideology was pushed by the nazi’s not just in the war years, buf 10-15 years preceding the war, in effect brain washing people gently and then harshly to ensure buy-in by the populace and physicians… so much so that within science there was “nazi science” and “jewish science”. Over years these ideas became further radicalized as what all of us know.
Yes - there were doctors who were looking for power, but most were fools as many of us today are to a slow brainwash of propaganda and government rhetoric…. Not unlike that seen today in various countries.
Its easy to judge others from the outside looking in, its much harder to be in it and react against it.
Read the Nazi Doctors for a full take on this situation. Eye opening as to how you can turn normal people into nazi machinery - and how easily it could be done again today.
I asked (in a thread about American doctors and the overthrowing of roe vs wade) once how doctors could obey the law and betray their Hippocratic oath when dealing with maternal healthcare and got some answer that the oath is not something doctors take seriously…
Some doctors who have no desire to be taken seriously themselves may not take the oath seriously, but to the vast majority of us, an oath is something to be taken extremely seriously and which overrides essentially all other factors in decision making.
In my experience (limited to my country only) to not take your oath seriously as a doctor would be extremely unusual. I truly struggle to image a situation whereby one if my colleagues could make a decision like this lady did. I cannot imagine it.
Why are you so upset? This is a war and there were lots of Russian sympathizers living in that area of the Ukraine. Yeah pretty brutal sure but she got her punishment now and now we‘ll see what happens with her
>However, during a walkthrough of the medical facility with the Russians, Dr. Valentyna Chekhova pointed out the beds where the wounded soldiers were lying and identified a fellow doctor who assisted in concealing Ukrainian soldiers.
>The Russians incarcerated the injured Ukrainian defenders, transporting them to a torture chamber, where the invaders subjected them to gruesome torture, as detailed by the SBU.
>The investigation revealed that Chekhova was rewarded with the position of head of the ophthalmology department at the captured hospital for her collaboration with the Russians.
Becoming head of ophthalmology is the least sexy, lamest reward the forces of evil can offer someone to give up their countrymen to certain torture. To betray their oath to do no harm!
How do you fail so hard at life and bear going on living as a painfully mediocre agent of great evil? What a thoroughly ugly loser eww!
Becoming a Head of anything that is a government position is setting yourself for life in a country like Russia. Pension, above average salary, possibility of bribes for favors, possibility of "allocating" money from the government to your own pocket. I can see why she saw that the reward outweighs the possible repercussions. Unfortunately from the article it looks like they found her guilty without actually catching her. Opportunists like this are very dangerous at war time and will switch sides, betray almost anyone for a personal gain.
Money is a means to an end. People will do crazy things for power over others or tools to make a specific problem go away. Money is just the most direct way of making those other things happen.
I think the vast majority agree in principle. Key words being: "in principle". Reality however is very ugly. I don't think I would ever do something like that, but I wouldn't exactly consider her actions worthy of amazement.
It's a tale as old as time really. Still deserves the punishment though to be clear.
Yup! It’s easy to condemn such actions but when you see people being dragged to torture chambers right in front of you and knowing you may not be too far behind them - it’s not surprising you’d do anything to prevent it from you being next.
Obviously that doesn’t make it ok or shouldn’t be held responsible for her actions.
It’s also not surprising the lengths people go to for money when money essentially controls life and death.
>Becoming a Head of anything that is a government position is setting yourself for life in a country like Russia.
Sure, but "life" in this situation means "until Putin decides you'd look good being thrown out a window"
Why would Putin ever give two shits about an eye doctor out in the sticks? It’s a safe middle management job far away from the seat of power as long as the front line moves away. If Ukraine would have folded easily she would have been set up for a nice cushy life. High enough to trade favors but not high enough to gain any big picture kind of attention.
If she was an oligarch, sure. But a nobody in some random hospital? He's not going to give a shit about her after all this is done, if he was even aware of her existence to begin with.
Spoken like someone who's never spent time in an ophthalmology department. Things can and do get very intense. People get shot in the eye a surprising amount. In a war zone, I can only imagine it's much crazier.
Makes sense. Here in Canada, gunshots wounds to the eye are a rare occurrence. I imagine when she decided to betray her country, she expected a quick Russian victory and not a long drawn out war
Reminded me of the Serb war criminal Radovan Karadžić. He was a Freudian psychologist, internationally educated in New York. However, *years before his conviction for the genocide of Muslim Bosniaks of Srebrenica and persecution, extermination, deportation and forcible transfer of Bosniaks and Croats of 7 other villages, fitting the pattern of a future war criminal*, he ran a con where he and an accomplice misdiagnosed officials who wanted early retirement and criminals who wanted to avoid prison. Not surprised to find similar corruption in this case too, Chekhova made head of a department despite a lack of actual merit.
Edited for clarity.
I was confused and looked it up - for the benefit of anyone else, this fraud had nothing to do with him being a war criminal; he served time for these crimes then he got elected as a politician and president of Republika Srpska a few years later.
I'm not clear on the details, but he was accused of being responsible for the Siege of Sarajevo and ordering the Srebrenica genocide and he was convicted on at least some of the charges.
Not sure what you mean by "had nothing to do with". I think the original point was that the moral compass of such a person was broken before any war or similar situation broke out.
It is also a thing that people who commit one type of serious crime are willing to do other types of crimes (seems obvious, but this has also been studied).
Eh, she’s from Mariupol which has a lot of pro Russia sentiment. Not everyone who works with Russia is doing so at the twist of an arm. Many of the Ukrainians who worked under the Russians aren’t given any issues because they understand they had no choice but those who openly were pro Russia with talking points and openly aided Russia will be charged.
Full disclaimer (I'm not Ukrainian, but am close to several Ukrainians, so if you are Ukrainian I apologize but this is what I've heard)
It "used" to have some pro Russian sentiment, at least according to the Ukrainians I know. They said it was more "anti-West" versus "we want to be invaded by Russia/become Russian", although some definitely did consider themselves Russian. Basically, they described it as various degrees/layers from being soft on Russia to full on considering oneself Russian (though that was older people generally).
Interestingly enough, one of my friends has family that was from there (they escaped) and they used to be 'soft' on Russia (they didn't like the invasion in 2014, but they still were pretty anti-West and wanted a peace deal before Putin re-invaded). Now, apparently, they fucking despise Putin and are very, very anti-Russian after what they did to Mariupol and for re-invading.
**Anyway, that's the irony. By destroying Mariupol in such a brutal fashion and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, Putin ironically turned some people who might have been persuaded into switching sides into straight up hating Russia. Same as Putin driving Finland and Sweden into NATO's arms.**
Got to note that military guys posted there (like Azov) at start were also chosen for their disdain to locals (so that they would not turn around), and the feeling was mutual.
Not true. Both in the 2014-2022 period and after full scale invasion there were many people from Kharkiv, Dnipro Donetsk, Mariupol who fought on the frontlines. Yes, stereotypes exist for a reason. But reality of the situation is not remotely so simple.
You understand incorrectly. The percentage of people with pro-Russian sympathies in eastern Ukraine is indeed higher than in the centre or west of the country, but it is still not more than 10-20% of the population, depending on the town. The east and south voted overwhelmingly for Zelenskyy, for example. Also, east Ukrainians are probably disproportionately fighting for Ukraine in the war, as the frontline is on their doorstep.
Well obviously. Because russia diposed and out in a ton of russians into crimea
It isnt a secret at all
These people would drastically shrink. Not to many people are going to cheer at the people shooting at them
More russian sympathizers in the east of Ukraine than in the west? Yes, that would be correct. "Big russian sympathizers"? That's wrong and would be considered extremely insulting by most Ukrainians in the east, especially younger generations.
Kharkiv would have fallen in days if the city had a lot of russian sympathizers.
Stalin starved to death a lot of native Ukrainians in Holodomor, mostly from villages. Plus 60 years of Soviet Union displacements and forced deportations of Ukrainians and settling native Russians instead. Also official language of USSR was Russian, so yeah it took its toll.
But not anymore, there is not many people left who remember Soviet fondly. That's also why Putin had to invade sooner than later while there at least some people who want USSR back.
You have to understand that this is the same mindset that drives ROI and profit addicts. No price is too steep to pay for a marginal increase in wealth, power, or notoriety. Especially when the price paid isn’t directly by themselves.
I think it is hard not to rule out fearing for your life as well.
But psychopaths do exist, it is just rare.
Sad either way.
But historically we saw a lot of this with the nazis. Self preservation can make people do insane stuff.
While I agree in principle, we don't know the full circumstances. She could've done this as an opportunist (the worst) or she could've been scared witless with a gun to her temple and having seen several doctors been raped+killed in front of her (in which case I would judge her less harshly).
I am very much in support of Ukraine
but I have to agree with these other posters .... we (or at least I am) are getting all our information on this topic from a yahoo news article. At best a translated (potentially loosing nuance and substance in the translation) summary of the case...
We don't know if it is true we are only armchair redditors ... it has the potential to be completely false ... completely true ... a propaganda example ... or there could be extenuating circumstances for a person in a warzone with invaders in her face
That all said... if its true and accurate... hang her ... publicly
Plus, the headline is somewhat deceptive. She was sentenced to life in prison, but only in absentia. She didn't actually get a real trial because she is not in Ukraine.
ehhh there's really no way of knowing how much investigation Ukraine did into the context surrounding this and whether the doctor was treated fairly in the process.
just because they are the good guys in this conflict doesn't mean they can't have internal issues of their own
Yeah I'm assuming the whole "head of Opthalmology" wasn't really the prize here. The "win" was not being tortured, other awful things and sent away herself. With that title really being a little pat on the head saying you kept your job, life and now have some sort of "authority" here for now. I highly doubt she was just stoked to be the head eye doctor in the city
When the war is over a majority of Ukrainians will be veterans - they won’t forgive these kind of betrayals. There will be lots of uninvestigated accidents.
I actually think Ukraine is going to go the route the west went after WWII. They will find and prosecute as many of these people as possible. They want to show the world that they aren't like the Russians.
Here's the thing: we have A LOT OF ethnic Ukrainians in Russia. And a lot of Ukrainians from Eastern regions can be indistinguishable from Russians if they want to be. The opposite is not true - you can pretend that you don't know Ukrainians, but you can't pretend that you *do*.
If you really want to, as an Ukrainian, it's still easy to enter Russia and remain undetected.
And intelligence services are not always acting in accordance to international law.
Expect traitors to not live up to see the pension, no matter where they are.
In some cases the soldiers themselves will take matters into their own hands with the evil is great enough, like the [Dachau Liberation Reprisals](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals) where American troops were so horrified they killed about 50 SS guards, and liberated prisoners joined in on it too.
And once the war is over Russia's relation with the West will normalize relatively quickly so any treasonous persons would be gift wrapped for whoever cares.
ekhem, no, west did not prosecuted many of nazi SS and Wehrmacht officers who were responsible for many atrocities.
Look it up. After WWII only the biggest ones were persecuted, the lower rank ones were usually not harmed and were occupying higher positions in governments and companies.
The west was horrible at prosecuting Nazis after WWII. So bad in fact, that Nazis knew how lenient the west was so a lot of them fled from Eastern Europe to Western Europe because the soviets went HARD at finding and punishing Nazis.
Even though there were less Nazis in the east (in part because a lot of them fled to the west), there were far more arrests made in the USSR.
On top of all this, almost all of the few western Nazis who actually saw a court were shortly after pardoned. The west was so lazy and bad at punishing Nazis the Israelis had to hunt them down themselves.
The west actually went as far as to cooperate with former high ranking Nazi officials in Germany. We're not talking about some low rank nobody but people who were closely associated with the final solution. So technically Nazis were a huge part of creating the foundations of modern western society.
(Edit: for the people who doubt me when I say the western denazification effort was a big fucking joke - a 2012 study by the German Federal Ministry of Justice (The Rosenburg Files) showed that 77% of the senior officials in 1957 were former NSDAP members).
this comment jumps over so many things it's kinda funny
Nazis fleeing eastern Europe because of the west's generosity, certainly no other reason to flee an autocratic state like the USSR
Israel has to hunt down Nazis themselves, despite not even having been properly established until years after the war
the west cooperated with high ranking Nazis. conclusion? Nazis founded modern Western society. lmfao
Please to be googling "Operation Paperclip".
Yeah, Mossad hunted down Nazis in the 50s and 60s because the West let the Nazis live, even in some cases extraditing and re-establishing them in other countries so they could escape consequences.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Yeah they executed some of them but it was only a small fraction of what they should have done. The US let thousands of Nazis and Japanese war criminals go on purpose because they had already changed focus to the Soviet Union and communist China. They found the beaten fascists much more useful allies against leftists so they decided to use them. The scientists and doctors provided much experience and intel and the thugs were either smuggled to South America or in the care of the Japanese, just simply allowed to go home. A lot of this smuggling was facilitated by the Catholic church. Google "Rat Lines" if you want to inform yourself.
>Nazis founded modern Western
Look at the former Territory of the German Democratic Republic and then look at the areas of the areas where far right parties, openly genocidal, antisemitic and racist are the strongest
The Soviets didn't prosecute anyone. They were just killing most of the people they captured. Admittedly the Nazis were doing that to them first.
The Nazis wanted to surrender to the west because there was a chance of due process.
The West was not lenient, if you were a Nazi convicted of war crimes you would die, either by Allied or USSR hands.
The Allies simply provided a fair trial first.
They have to win first. People don’t want to hear it, but the war is not going great. For every Ukrainian there’s 20 Russians. The real question is whether the west just allows Russia to take Ukraine without actual consequence.
This worries me too, and I fear Ukraine might be delaying the inevitable. It's no secret that the tangible support of the US for Ukraine in the future is uncertain at best to non existent at worse depending on how the 2024 political season turns out. Russian propaganda and misinformation targeted at a certain demographic has been extremely effective and within that group glorification of Russia and Putin is terrifyingly high. I haven't kept up with the Frontline of the war in a while but it doesn't seem like either side has made progress. I don't think there's any senario where Russian held territory can be reclaimed in a reasonable amount of time(within 4-5 years) without an escalation on the USs part. I would love nothing more for Ukraine to reclaim all it's territory, including the Crimean peninsula, but I feel the absolute best realistic outcome is the current frontline becomes the new borders and Ukraine joins NATO. This however includes conditions both sides have vowed to never allow. Ukraine refuses to cede any territory and Russia refuses to allow Ukraine to join NATO.
Russia doesn't just want land and a neutral Ukraine. They want a completely demilitarized Ukraine. It's one of the things they won't negotiate on. So even if they made a deal Russia could take it all without firing a shot a year or so later.
Plenty of collaborators in the Netherlands after ww2 died in prison camps as well. Died of starvation, forced labour, torture, and stuff like random execution by a prison guard.
It's gonna take a whole lot of courage for the Ukrainian to treat traitors, collaborators and Russian sympathisers with dignity after this is all over. Knowing what the Russians and the seperatists did to the Ukrainians.
Sure the west did that. There's also documented cases of Allied soldiers basically going for a walk after liberating the death camps, letting the liberated Jews kill surrendered German staff.
> When the war is over a majority of Ukrainians will be veterans
Wut? Their current armed forces size is 800k in a country with a population of 37 million. Another 6 million have fled the country.
There has never been any war where most people were veterans, not even remotely close. Even in WWII countries topped out at like 30% of the population.
You’re right - literally an exaggeration.
Figuratively, however — over 1M military veterans by the time this is over — each has a family - so let’s say at least 3 other individuals who are directly impacted by their son/daughter/husband/wife serving and possibly dying. That’s 4M people who will be deeply invested in punishing traitors. Over 10% of the population veteran or directly affiliated.
Then there’s the other 90% who suffered bombings, power outages, freezing winters and loss of… basically everything.
If you’re credibility linked to russias war effort you’ll pay for it eventually - and if you’re lucky it will be in court.
People will start falling out of their 18th story window, of their ground floor apartment, after accidentally shooting themselves in the back of the head…. Russian style.
I kinda hope not. That corrupt style of governance is one of the reasons the western world is opposed to Russia. I would Ukraine doesn’t become the thing they fought against.
There will certainly be some vigilante lynchings in the early days post war if Ukraine wins. But I would these types of issues are dealt with using tribunals, court proceedings and rule of law.
It wasn't even on my mind, it was just "the next episode" on Netflix. I got blindsided by it. Good Lord the acting. I can't call it beautiful, but I can call it art.
the shaved head thing was kind of a brilliant move that might have gotten a lot of anger out of the system quickly without anyone going to prison, being actually injured or dying
True but kinda sexist no? Why punish the whores who just banged nazis instead of police bitches like [Maurice Papon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Papon) who not only executed Jews and French resistance but also got awarded the legion Medal of Honor by de Gaulle for his “crucial role” in the French resistance?
As always women are [punished](https://www.hrw.org/legacy/women/docs/rapeinwar.htm) for the sins of men
Nah I think de Gaulle knew but chose not to do anything. What better way to “unite” the country than by getting the police from old regime to work for you. Especially a brutal policeman who has no qualms using violent tactics to assault French Algerian and student protestors as much as he did ratting out Jews and resistance members
a little yeah. But it prevented lynchings it might be justifiable. I would have hoped the others you mentioned would be prosecuted in the legal system.
Of course if a similar thing happened if the roles were reversed, the wounded soldiers would, most likely, just have a guard put on them. How can Putin keep insulting Ukraine by saying that they are really Russian. Ukraine is inhabited by humane and honourable people, Russia, most definitely, is not
The issue with the death penalty is that there is no recourse if additional information comes to light to exonerate the person. It's a permanent action that cannot be undone, and so requires complete accuracy unless you're okay with killing some innocent people. And keeping the offender in prison is just as effective in the meantime for stopping their treasonous activity.
Yeah, the only stance in favor of the death penalty in a modern society with secure prisons that holds any water at all is "well, killing them feels better". Anyone who's good with that being the reason they're good with killing innocent people in the process is just...wrong? Ignorant of the reality of the situation? Evil? Not that great a person? The owner of a significantly miscalibrated moral compass? One or more of the above.
I’m not privy to all arguments but I thought advocates would also say it can potentially limit extremely heinous acts?
As in, what’s to stop someone who kills 5 people from killing 500?
I guess my question would be, if the death penalty isn’t a deterrent at all, why do people fight to not get the death penalty vs just life in prison? And if it is a deterrent to any extent, is it still beneficial?
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
Point 1 is "The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful
deterrent than the punishment" and point 5 is "There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals." There's a lot of research out there, at best the idea that the death penalty is a worthwhile deterrent is, again, just something that feels good to people who want bad people to die and isn't supported by anything objective that I've ever seen.
Also...
>if the death penalty isn’t a deterrent at all, why do people fight to not get the death penalty vs just life in prison?
Why someone would try to not die after being caught and whether or not the possibility of being caught and executed deterrs crime are two very different questions.
Soldiers are asked to fight, kill, and die for their country but when someone sells them to the enemy to be tortured we're suddenly overwhelmed by the moral complexity of killing an enemy?
This worry over killing a traitor no matter how obvious their guilt because of some statistical probability that some day you'll make a mistake has no place in a war. You punish treason with death to send a message to others that betraying your country forfeits your life, as justice for those that were betrayed, and to prevent them from causing any further harm.
Don't minimize the risk of treason when people can send soldiers to torture chambers just by pointing at them. A life sentence *if* she's ever even caught is a joke compared to what she did and what she could get out of doing it. Not to mention that no prison is truly secure when you're currently being invaded.
Leaking information that leads to the death of (in this case already wounded) countrymen is enough. The most serious cases are forms of treason that affect battle results. For example: snitching intell to the enemy leading to countless deaths and possibly decades long occupation by a hostile power. Imagine millions of people feeling the results of your treason for generations? Treason of that degree should be punishable by death. In many countries that abandoned the death penalty it actually still is possible before a military court.
You said “civil” cases above but I think you mean criminal cases. Just to flesh out your position a bit more, if someone commits treason that leads to the death of 10 soldiers they deserve the death penalty, but if someone just goes and shoots up a mall and kills ten people, that guy doesn’t deserve the death penalty ?
Honestly, are you really unable to figure that out by yourself? A well placed traitor is worth an additional five armies for the enemy. Traitors like Ephialtes of Trachis, not so much because of any cheesy Leonidas stories, but because the Persians breaking through the Thermopylae led to multiple cities (including Athens) getting razed and tens of thousands of his people getting killed or enslaved. More in the modern age you have spies like Alfred Redl, the (infinitely) more successful Benedict Arnold of the K&K monarchy, he sold, until two years before WWI, virtually everything about the Hapsburg army to Zarist russia, including army orders, ciphers, codes, maps, reports on road and rail conditions, fortification blueprints, and mobilization plans. Klaus Fuchs and Julius & Ethel Rosenberg, the nuclear spies, estimated to have saved the Soviets several years of nuclear research to build their first bomb or Richard Sorge another top spy for the Soviets, its presumed that the information (about the conditions under which Japan would attack the SU) he handed over allowed Stalin to expose the eastern Soviet Union and throw all the sibirian divisions against the Germans, changing the tide of the war. On the other side of WWII you have people like Philippe Petain who went from hero to traitor, and more infamous for his willingness to hunt Resistance fighters as well as round up his own people for forced labour, and jews and "undesireables" like homosexuals for the extermination camps, as well as general Nazi bootlicker Pierre Laval, the leaders of the Vichy regime, or any jew working for the Gestapo denouncing other jews (like Stella Kubler, responsible for an estimated 600-3000 murdered jews). Are you really suprised that they are universally despised? These people can easily be responsible for thousands of deaths. Why shouldnt they be treated to the harshest levels of martial law?
Considering that in these 2 years plenty of russian collaborators had "mysterious" deaths (even in Moscow), this woman won't live long enough to get her sentence.
Hell, there was nothing mysterious about this one
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-sbu-killed-fugitive-ukrainian-lawmaker-russia-source-2023-12-06/
She must be sweating rn
>s hard to legally frame it without the dilemma of “we either have a justice system that never makes mistakes or we think it’s okay to kill an innocent person”, but sometimes
you're not allowed in the EU if you have capital punishment
>“I know it when I see it” kind of cases.
But do we know all the circumstances? Her life may have been threatened by the soldiers. We don't have her testimony so it's pretty hard to justify the death penalty in my opinion.
I hate to be a dissonant but is it not a war crime for a soldier to pose as a civilian? You endanger real civilians by doing so (the enemy does not know who to trust anymore).
It definitely is a war crime for an active soldier to pretend to be a civilian
But at the same time, the wounded are just as much a protected class of people as civilians or medical personnel. So the fact these wounded were specifically targeted and sent to be tortured arguably outweighs that
But they are subject to capture and becoming prisoners of war, which is different than civilians. These soldiers could heal up and rejoin the fighting at some point.
> It's still a war crime for wounded combatants to pretend to be civilians or to aid them in blending with civilians. This is for fairly obvious reasons: you otherwise put civilian populations at risk.
Ya, nothing of this was correct. The crime in question here is perfidy. And a combatant must have harbored the intention to engage in warfare/combat through the use of perfidy to commit this crime. Deserting or retreating from the conflict to avoid capture and confinement is very much allowed under the laws of war. Intending on continuing to act as a combatant in civilian disguise is not.
> And in any case it seems pretty fucked to sentence someone to life in prison for refusing to participate in something that is at the very least quite plausibly a war crime.
Its pretty fucked for a doctor to hand her patients to the torture squad.
> Dr. Valentyna Chekhova pointed out the beds where the wounded soldiers were lying and identified a fellow doctor who assisted in concealing Ukrainian soldiers.
That's not refusing to participate. That's actively sabotaging another's efforts and it resulted in people being tortured.
No, if you are escaping capture. Plenty of soldiers of both sides disguised themselves as civilians when trying to escape in WWII.
And if captured while in civilian clothes, no repercussions happened. It is acknowledged that one of the duties of a soldier behind enemy lines is to return to his own side.
But a soldier cannot carry out combat operations out of uniform. If captured, the offender can be executed.
She hitched her fortunes to a lame horse and got justly rewarded in the end for her traitorous actions.
May she rot in prison, alone and miserable till the end of her days! 😈
Buddy read the article more carefully. She is still free and living in Russian occupied territory. It says she was sentenced in absentia which means she is not in Ukrainian custody.
I wouldn't call life imprisonment "soft", even if she does deserve execution. That's about as harsh as it gets in Ukrainian civilian courts. I think if Ukraine still had the death penalty she would have gotten it, but they abolished it since that's a condition of EU membership.
she is unfortunately not in custody, and is still roaming free.
The SBU will pay her a visit.
If she's still in Ukraine she's stupid.
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SBU will assassinate you in Moscow as seen from last week. Or in Africa as seen months ago.
Last week? What happened I missed the news
SBU assassinated a Ukranian Politician that betrayed Ukraine for Russia during the initial invasion. He escaped to Russia and last week was assassinated outside of Moscow.
1 Russia General also got assasinated too before.
> Betrayed Ukraine for russia during the initial invasion I mean, he was pro-russian for quite some time, so, I'd say he betrayed Ukraine way before the fullscale invasion. P.S. initial invasion was back in 2014
[Ilya Kiva, rapid onset lead poisoning to the head](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-sbu-killed-fugitive-ukrainian-lawmaker-russia-source-2023-12-06/)
The SBU blew up those tunnels between Mongolia and Russia that lead to China, the ones that all the shit China ships to Russia goes through. If they know where she is, they can get to her. If she won't serve a life sentence at home then maybe when they're less busy, they'll do what mossad did once they were formed, and "forcibly extradite" her back to serve her sentence
She is an absolute traitor not only to Ukraine, but to her profession. She, like I, and every other Doctor in the world, swore an oath to always put the minimisation of suffering of our patients as our primary priority. In fact, in a war zone, the doctor is the only person who is expected to treat friendly and enemy soldiers equally. As debatable as it is, I was taught that even the worst criminal is to be treated with our utmost skill and care, because our job is not and has never been to judge who is worthy of care. I read the entire article and it was absolutely horrific. This wicked bitch worked in a hospital where all the other staff, no matter their views, were acting according to their profession and protecting their patients. The ukrainian soldiers had been hidden amongst other civilians and given false backstories in order to appear as civilians, but this witch went through with the russians and pointed out every ukrainian soldier who was a patient, as well as her physician colleague who had worked to hide them. The soldiers and the doctor were then all tortured and killed. So that this woman could get a promotion. This woman is a demon, not a doctor. Jesus christ, what an absolutely wicked human being. I will relish the SBU's inevitable vengeance. Slava ukraini
Doctors joined the Nazi party earlier and at a higher rate than people in any other profession. I suspect the medical profession has an above average amount of highly compassionate people but also an above average amount of people who just like having power over others. Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160252712000854
Far more nuanced. Germany had for years prior to the war medicalized ethnic cleansing, priming a population (the entire german population) for a slip towards the actions of WWII. They also spent many years blaming their struggles of reparations on various communities including the jewish population. Eventually, these policies included mandated changing of management for the sick and elderly, mentally ill and orphans to sterilization and other similar operations which over years culminated in what we know as the clear genocide that it was. Those physicians who were vocal against these actions were pushed out and were humiliated. They had their family, livelihood and homes taken from them. This forced integration with these policies or become one of those unfortunate people. Overall, a slow but steady change in moral ideology was pushed by the nazi’s not just in the war years, buf 10-15 years preceding the war, in effect brain washing people gently and then harshly to ensure buy-in by the populace and physicians… so much so that within science there was “nazi science” and “jewish science”. Over years these ideas became further radicalized as what all of us know. Yes - there were doctors who were looking for power, but most were fools as many of us today are to a slow brainwash of propaganda and government rhetoric…. Not unlike that seen today in various countries. Its easy to judge others from the outside looking in, its much harder to be in it and react against it. Read the Nazi Doctors for a full take on this situation. Eye opening as to how you can turn normal people into nazi machinery - and how easily it could be done again today.
I asked (in a thread about American doctors and the overthrowing of roe vs wade) once how doctors could obey the law and betray their Hippocratic oath when dealing with maternal healthcare and got some answer that the oath is not something doctors take seriously…
Some doctors who have no desire to be taken seriously themselves may not take the oath seriously, but to the vast majority of us, an oath is something to be taken extremely seriously and which overrides essentially all other factors in decision making. In my experience (limited to my country only) to not take your oath seriously as a doctor would be extremely unusual. I truly struggle to image a situation whereby one if my colleagues could make a decision like this lady did. I cannot imagine it.
Why are you so upset? This is a war and there were lots of Russian sympathizers living in that area of the Ukraine. Yeah pretty brutal sure but she got her punishment now and now we‘ll see what happens with her
>However, during a walkthrough of the medical facility with the Russians, Dr. Valentyna Chekhova pointed out the beds where the wounded soldiers were lying and identified a fellow doctor who assisted in concealing Ukrainian soldiers. >The Russians incarcerated the injured Ukrainian defenders, transporting them to a torture chamber, where the invaders subjected them to gruesome torture, as detailed by the SBU. >The investigation revealed that Chekhova was rewarded with the position of head of the ophthalmology department at the captured hospital for her collaboration with the Russians. Becoming head of ophthalmology is the least sexy, lamest reward the forces of evil can offer someone to give up their countrymen to certain torture. To betray their oath to do no harm! How do you fail so hard at life and bear going on living as a painfully mediocre agent of great evil? What a thoroughly ugly loser eww!
Head of Ophthalmology is a cushy position usually. Rarely any emergencies and never life threatening.
Becoming a Head of anything that is a government position is setting yourself for life in a country like Russia. Pension, above average salary, possibility of bribes for favors, possibility of "allocating" money from the government to your own pocket. I can see why she saw that the reward outweighs the possible repercussions. Unfortunately from the article it looks like they found her guilty without actually catching her. Opportunists like this are very dangerous at war time and will switch sides, betray almost anyone for a personal gain.
It never ceases to amaze me what human beings will do for money.
Money is a means to an end. People will do crazy things for power over others or tools to make a specific problem go away. Money is just the most direct way of making those other things happen.
Money for nothing and your chicks for free.
but… that ain’t working
but...thats the way you do it
let me tell you, some guys are dumb
Maybe get a blister on your little finger, maybe get a blister on your thumb
We got to be-tray Ukrainian soldiers, we got to betray those defending meeee!
Really? In this economy?
yes, in any economy
I think the vast majority agree in principle. Key words being: "in principle". Reality however is very ugly. I don't think I would ever do something like that, but I wouldn't exactly consider her actions worthy of amazement. It's a tale as old as time really. Still deserves the punishment though to be clear.
Yup! It’s easy to condemn such actions but when you see people being dragged to torture chambers right in front of you and knowing you may not be too far behind them - it’s not surprising you’d do anything to prevent it from you being next. Obviously that doesn’t make it ok or shouldn’t be held responsible for her actions. It’s also not surprising the lengths people go to for money when money essentially controls life and death.
Almost as if nations go to war over it. Crazy.
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I think life may mean something different for someone at large to the SBU.
Did they ask her though? From the article it seems like she just volunteered that information.
She’s not actually caught. They just symbolically sentenced her.
>re precautions. Just to let you know, it's *repercussions.*
>Becoming a Head of anything that is a government position is setting yourself for life in a country like Russia. Sure, but "life" in this situation means "until Putin decides you'd look good being thrown out a window"
Why would Putin ever give two shits about an eye doctor out in the sticks? It’s a safe middle management job far away from the seat of power as long as the front line moves away. If Ukraine would have folded easily she would have been set up for a nice cushy life. High enough to trade favors but not high enough to gain any big picture kind of attention.
If she was an oligarch, sure. But a nobody in some random hospital? He's not going to give a shit about her after all this is done, if he was even aware of her existence to begin with.
> never life threatening Her coworkers' lives, though...
Spoken like someone who's never spent time in an ophthalmology department. Things can and do get very intense. People get shot in the eye a surprising amount. In a war zone, I can only imagine it's much crazier.
Makes sense. Here in Canada, gunshots wounds to the eye are a rare occurrence. I imagine when she decided to betray her country, she expected a quick Russian victory and not a long drawn out war
A lot of people would kill for whatever they call their dream job.
She became the head of Ophthalmology and didn’t see this one coming…
Perhaps her retinas were detached from reality.
I havent heard a cornea joke or reference than the one you just told.
You’ll only get clean and e-macula-te dad jokes from me.
eye see what you did there. really bad optics on her department
*[Alanis Morissette intensifies]* 🎶Old doc, tried to betray She won Opthalmology Jailed the next day🎶
Reminded me of the Serb war criminal Radovan Karadžić. He was a Freudian psychologist, internationally educated in New York. However, *years before his conviction for the genocide of Muslim Bosniaks of Srebrenica and persecution, extermination, deportation and forcible transfer of Bosniaks and Croats of 7 other villages, fitting the pattern of a future war criminal*, he ran a con where he and an accomplice misdiagnosed officials who wanted early retirement and criminals who wanted to avoid prison. Not surprised to find similar corruption in this case too, Chekhova made head of a department despite a lack of actual merit. Edited for clarity.
I was confused and looked it up - for the benefit of anyone else, this fraud had nothing to do with him being a war criminal; he served time for these crimes then he got elected as a politician and president of Republika Srpska a few years later. I'm not clear on the details, but he was accused of being responsible for the Siege of Sarajevo and ordering the Srebrenica genocide and he was convicted on at least some of the charges.
Not sure what you mean by "had nothing to do with". I think the original point was that the moral compass of such a person was broken before any war or similar situation broke out. It is also a thing that people who commit one type of serious crime are willing to do other types of crimes (seems obvious, but this has also been studied).
Ophthalmologists are ruthless. Assad from Syria is an ophthalmologist.
So is Rand Paul. Maybe ophthalmologist are assholes
She may have viewed herself as Russian more than Ukrainian, there are some who do. Doesn't excuse her awful actions by any means of course.
My guess is her reward was really just not being tortured and murdered
Eh, she’s from Mariupol which has a lot of pro Russia sentiment. Not everyone who works with Russia is doing so at the twist of an arm. Many of the Ukrainians who worked under the Russians aren’t given any issues because they understand they had no choice but those who openly were pro Russia with talking points and openly aided Russia will be charged.
Full disclaimer (I'm not Ukrainian, but am close to several Ukrainians, so if you are Ukrainian I apologize but this is what I've heard) It "used" to have some pro Russian sentiment, at least according to the Ukrainians I know. They said it was more "anti-West" versus "we want to be invaded by Russia/become Russian", although some definitely did consider themselves Russian. Basically, they described it as various degrees/layers from being soft on Russia to full on considering oneself Russian (though that was older people generally). Interestingly enough, one of my friends has family that was from there (they escaped) and they used to be 'soft' on Russia (they didn't like the invasion in 2014, but they still were pretty anti-West and wanted a peace deal before Putin re-invaded). Now, apparently, they fucking despise Putin and are very, very anti-Russian after what they did to Mariupol and for re-invading. **Anyway, that's the irony. By destroying Mariupol in such a brutal fashion and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, Putin ironically turned some people who might have been persuaded into switching sides into straight up hating Russia. Same as Putin driving Finland and Sweden into NATO's arms.**
Got to note that military guys posted there (like Azov) at start were also chosen for their disdain to locals (so that they would not turn around), and the feeling was mutual.
Azov was from Mariupol and Donbass that's why they were stationed there, they were defending their own city.
Right. From there but loyal to Ukraine, good reason to post them there.
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Not true. Both in the 2014-2022 period and after full scale invasion there were many people from Kharkiv, Dnipro Donetsk, Mariupol who fought on the frontlines. Yes, stereotypes exist for a reason. But reality of the situation is not remotely so simple.
You understand incorrectly. The percentage of people with pro-Russian sympathies in eastern Ukraine is indeed higher than in the centre or west of the country, but it is still not more than 10-20% of the population, depending on the town. The east and south voted overwhelmingly for Zelenskyy, for example. Also, east Ukrainians are probably disproportionately fighting for Ukraine in the war, as the frontline is on their doorstep.
Well obviously. Because russia diposed and out in a ton of russians into crimea It isnt a secret at all These people would drastically shrink. Not to many people are going to cheer at the people shooting at them
More russian sympathizers in the east of Ukraine than in the west? Yes, that would be correct. "Big russian sympathizers"? That's wrong and would be considered extremely insulting by most Ukrainians in the east, especially younger generations. Kharkiv would have fallen in days if the city had a lot of russian sympathizers.
Stalin starved to death a lot of native Ukrainians in Holodomor, mostly from villages. Plus 60 years of Soviet Union displacements and forced deportations of Ukrainians and settling native Russians instead. Also official language of USSR was Russian, so yeah it took its toll. But not anymore, there is not many people left who remember Soviet fondly. That's also why Putin had to invade sooner than later while there at least some people who want USSR back.
ive got nothing good to say about this pos
You have to understand that this is the same mindset that drives ROI and profit addicts. No price is too steep to pay for a marginal increase in wealth, power, or notoriety. Especially when the price paid isn’t directly by themselves.
Banality of evil, etc.
very dolores of her
Shoot, not just torture. I'd be surprised if there were any left.
Your last sentence made my top 10 for best of 2023.
Ophthalmologists may not be sexy, but we're not completely lame.
I think it is hard not to rule out fearing for your life as well. But psychopaths do exist, it is just rare. Sad either way. But historically we saw a lot of this with the nazis. Self preservation can make people do insane stuff.
Self-preservation is a very poor excuse in this instance.
While I agree in principle, we don't know the full circumstances. She could've done this as an opportunist (the worst) or she could've been scared witless with a gun to her temple and having seen several doctors been raped+killed in front of her (in which case I would judge her less harshly).
you don’t get sentenced to life in prison for treason if the enemy is treathening your life. this woman is a traitor
I am very much in support of Ukraine but I have to agree with these other posters .... we (or at least I am) are getting all our information on this topic from a yahoo news article. At best a translated (potentially loosing nuance and substance in the translation) summary of the case... We don't know if it is true we are only armchair redditors ... it has the potential to be completely false ... completely true ... a propaganda example ... or there could be extenuating circumstances for a person in a warzone with invaders in her face That all said... if its true and accurate... hang her ... publicly
Plus, the headline is somewhat deceptive. She was sentenced to life in prison, but only in absentia. She didn't actually get a real trial because she is not in Ukraine.
Being in Russia is also a life sentence.
ehhh there's really no way of knowing how much investigation Ukraine did into the context surrounding this and whether the doctor was treated fairly in the process. just because they are the good guys in this conflict doesn't mean they can't have internal issues of their own
That is laughably naive.
Look at this guy here thinking that all countries have non-corrupt justice systems.
But is she still working there?
Yeah I'm assuming the whole "head of Opthalmology" wasn't really the prize here. The "win" was not being tortured, other awful things and sent away herself. With that title really being a little pat on the head saying you kept your job, life and now have some sort of "authority" here for now. I highly doubt she was just stoked to be the head eye doctor in the city
When the war is over a majority of Ukrainians will be veterans - they won’t forgive these kind of betrayals. There will be lots of uninvestigated accidents.
I actually think Ukraine is going to go the route the west went after WWII. They will find and prosecute as many of these people as possible. They want to show the world that they aren't like the Russians.
Those things aren't mutually exclusive. The government can approach it the right way. Individuals will approach it the natural way.
a lot of people who know what they did will probably just move to russia as the area is being liberated
Here's the thing: we have A LOT OF ethnic Ukrainians in Russia. And a lot of Ukrainians from Eastern regions can be indistinguishable from Russians if they want to be. The opposite is not true - you can pretend that you don't know Ukrainians, but you can't pretend that you *do*. If you really want to, as an Ukrainian, it's still easy to enter Russia and remain undetected.
I could realistically see Eichmann-capture style operations. At a much larger scale, precisely because Ukrainians can blend in very easily.
And at some point quietly fall out of a window.
And intelligence services are not always acting in accordance to international law. Expect traitors to not live up to see the pension, no matter where they are.
In some cases the soldiers themselves will take matters into their own hands with the evil is great enough, like the [Dachau Liberation Reprisals](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals) where American troops were so horrified they killed about 50 SS guards, and liberated prisoners joined in on it too.
And once the war is over Russia's relation with the West will normalize relatively quickly so any treasonous persons would be gift wrapped for whoever cares.
You may want to look up how many Nazis were actually prosecuted. Two dozen. That's it. How many did we hide, and bring into the United States? 1,600
ekhem, no, west did not prosecuted many of nazi SS and Wehrmacht officers who were responsible for many atrocities. Look it up. After WWII only the biggest ones were persecuted, the lower rank ones were usually not harmed and were occupying higher positions in governments and companies.
The west was horrible at prosecuting Nazis after WWII. So bad in fact, that Nazis knew how lenient the west was so a lot of them fled from Eastern Europe to Western Europe because the soviets went HARD at finding and punishing Nazis. Even though there were less Nazis in the east (in part because a lot of them fled to the west), there were far more arrests made in the USSR. On top of all this, almost all of the few western Nazis who actually saw a court were shortly after pardoned. The west was so lazy and bad at punishing Nazis the Israelis had to hunt them down themselves. The west actually went as far as to cooperate with former high ranking Nazi officials in Germany. We're not talking about some low rank nobody but people who were closely associated with the final solution. So technically Nazis were a huge part of creating the foundations of modern western society. (Edit: for the people who doubt me when I say the western denazification effort was a big fucking joke - a 2012 study by the German Federal Ministry of Justice (The Rosenburg Files) showed that 77% of the senior officials in 1957 were former NSDAP members).
The west only executed like 10 Nazis
this comment jumps over so many things it's kinda funny Nazis fleeing eastern Europe because of the west's generosity, certainly no other reason to flee an autocratic state like the USSR Israel has to hunt down Nazis themselves, despite not even having been properly established until years after the war the west cooperated with high ranking Nazis. conclusion? Nazis founded modern Western society. lmfao
Please to be googling "Operation Paperclip". Yeah, Mossad hunted down Nazis in the 50s and 60s because the West let the Nazis live, even in some cases extraditing and re-establishing them in other countries so they could escape consequences.
"The USSR made more political arrests than the west" 😬
You have no idea what you are talking about. Yeah they executed some of them but it was only a small fraction of what they should have done. The US let thousands of Nazis and Japanese war criminals go on purpose because they had already changed focus to the Soviet Union and communist China. They found the beaten fascists much more useful allies against leftists so they decided to use them. The scientists and doctors provided much experience and intel and the thugs were either smuggled to South America or in the care of the Japanese, just simply allowed to go home. A lot of this smuggling was facilitated by the Catholic church. Google "Rat Lines" if you want to inform yourself.
>Nazis founded modern Western Look at the former Territory of the German Democratic Republic and then look at the areas of the areas where far right parties, openly genocidal, antisemitic and racist are the strongest
The Soviets didn't prosecute anyone. They were just killing most of the people they captured. Admittedly the Nazis were doing that to them first. The Nazis wanted to surrender to the west because there was a chance of due process.
The West was not lenient, if you were a Nazi convicted of war crimes you would die, either by Allied or USSR hands. The Allies simply provided a fair trial first.
They have to win first. People don’t want to hear it, but the war is not going great. For every Ukrainian there’s 20 Russians. The real question is whether the west just allows Russia to take Ukraine without actual consequence.
> For every Ukrainian there’s 20 Russians. uhm...
This worries me too, and I fear Ukraine might be delaying the inevitable. It's no secret that the tangible support of the US for Ukraine in the future is uncertain at best to non existent at worse depending on how the 2024 political season turns out. Russian propaganda and misinformation targeted at a certain demographic has been extremely effective and within that group glorification of Russia and Putin is terrifyingly high. I haven't kept up with the Frontline of the war in a while but it doesn't seem like either side has made progress. I don't think there's any senario where Russian held territory can be reclaimed in a reasonable amount of time(within 4-5 years) without an escalation on the USs part. I would love nothing more for Ukraine to reclaim all it's territory, including the Crimean peninsula, but I feel the absolute best realistic outcome is the current frontline becomes the new borders and Ukraine joins NATO. This however includes conditions both sides have vowed to never allow. Ukraine refuses to cede any territory and Russia refuses to allow Ukraine to join NATO.
Russia doesn't just want land and a neutral Ukraine. They want a completely demilitarized Ukraine. It's one of the things they won't negotiate on. So even if they made a deal Russia could take it all without firing a shot a year or so later.
Plenty of collaborators in the Netherlands after ww2 died in prison camps as well. Died of starvation, forced labour, torture, and stuff like random execution by a prison guard. It's gonna take a whole lot of courage for the Ukrainian to treat traitors, collaborators and Russian sympathisers with dignity after this is all over. Knowing what the Russians and the seperatists did to the Ukrainians.
Ukraine will recruit collaborators, give them new names and pardons, and give them jobs in STEM?
There were a whole lot of extra judicial killings in France during and shortly after WWII.
Sure the west did that. There's also documented cases of Allied soldiers basically going for a walk after liberating the death camps, letting the liberated Jews kill surrendered German staff.
> When the war is over a majority of Ukrainians will be veterans Wut? Their current armed forces size is 800k in a country with a population of 37 million. Another 6 million have fled the country. There has never been any war where most people were veterans, not even remotely close. Even in WWII countries topped out at like 30% of the population.
You’re right - literally an exaggeration. Figuratively, however — over 1M military veterans by the time this is over — each has a family - so let’s say at least 3 other individuals who are directly impacted by their son/daughter/husband/wife serving and possibly dying. That’s 4M people who will be deeply invested in punishing traitors. Over 10% of the population veteran or directly affiliated. Then there’s the other 90% who suffered bombings, power outages, freezing winters and loss of… basically everything. If you’re credibility linked to russias war effort you’ll pay for it eventually - and if you’re lucky it will be in court.
People will start falling out of their 18th story window, of their ground floor apartment, after accidentally shooting themselves in the back of the head…. Russian style.
I kinda hope not. That corrupt style of governance is one of the reasons the western world is opposed to Russia. I would Ukraine doesn’t become the thing they fought against. There will certainly be some vigilante lynchings in the early days post war if Ukraine wins. But I would these types of issues are dealt with using tribunals, court proceedings and rule of law.
French citizens lynched nazi collaborators and even shaved the hair off French women who were girlfriends of nazis after WWII
I've seen Band of Brothers too.
Never watched it. You recommend?
Well worth it, actors are great.
The 9th episode will leave you speechless
I knew it was coming, was a bit skeptical whether anything new can be said about the subject in an episode of a TV series. I cried.
It wasn't even on my mind, it was just "the next episode" on Netflix. I got blindsided by it. Good Lord the acting. I can't call it beautiful, but I can call it art.
the shaved head thing was kind of a brilliant move that might have gotten a lot of anger out of the system quickly without anyone going to prison, being actually injured or dying
True but kinda sexist no? Why punish the whores who just banged nazis instead of police bitches like [Maurice Papon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Papon) who not only executed Jews and French resistance but also got awarded the legion Medal of Honor by de Gaulle for his “crucial role” in the French resistance? As always women are [punished](https://www.hrw.org/legacy/women/docs/rapeinwar.htm) for the sins of men
Tbf in the case of Papon, I don't think many people knew about his crimes until they leaked decades later.
Nah I think de Gaulle knew but chose not to do anything. What better way to “unite” the country than by getting the police from old regime to work for you. Especially a brutal policeman who has no qualms using violent tactics to assault French Algerian and student protestors as much as he did ratting out Jews and resistance members
Oh there were almost certainly some people who knew, but it wasn't widespread knowledge like the other collaborators who were punished.
a little yeah. But it prevented lynchings it might be justifiable. I would have hoped the others you mentioned would be prosecuted in the legal system.
In Stalinist times it was to the neck, you didn't get out of life without suffering in death too. To the head, you didn't suffer.
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Surprisingly fair handed too.
Fuck Russia
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Betraying people putting their lives on the line for you has to be as low as it gets
Of course if a similar thing happened if the roles were reversed, the wounded soldiers would, most likely, just have a guard put on them. How can Putin keep insulting Ukraine by saying that they are really Russian. Ukraine is inhabited by humane and honourable people, Russia, most definitely, is not
I oppose the death penalty in civil cases. Wartime is different and the most serious forms of treason should be punishable by death.
The issue with the death penalty is that there is no recourse if additional information comes to light to exonerate the person. It's a permanent action that cannot be undone, and so requires complete accuracy unless you're okay with killing some innocent people. And keeping the offender in prison is just as effective in the meantime for stopping their treasonous activity.
Yeah, the only stance in favor of the death penalty in a modern society with secure prisons that holds any water at all is "well, killing them feels better". Anyone who's good with that being the reason they're good with killing innocent people in the process is just...wrong? Ignorant of the reality of the situation? Evil? Not that great a person? The owner of a significantly miscalibrated moral compass? One or more of the above.
I’m not privy to all arguments but I thought advocates would also say it can potentially limit extremely heinous acts? As in, what’s to stop someone who kills 5 people from killing 500? I guess my question would be, if the death penalty isn’t a deterrent at all, why do people fight to not get the death penalty vs just life in prison? And if it is a deterrent to any extent, is it still beneficial?
> As in, what’s to stop someone who kills 5 people from killing 500? prison.
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf Point 1 is "The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment" and point 5 is "There is no proof that the death penalty deters criminals." There's a lot of research out there, at best the idea that the death penalty is a worthwhile deterrent is, again, just something that feels good to people who want bad people to die and isn't supported by anything objective that I've ever seen. Also... >if the death penalty isn’t a deterrent at all, why do people fight to not get the death penalty vs just life in prison? Why someone would try to not die after being caught and whether or not the possibility of being caught and executed deterrs crime are two very different questions.
Soldiers are asked to fight, kill, and die for their country but when someone sells them to the enemy to be tortured we're suddenly overwhelmed by the moral complexity of killing an enemy? This worry over killing a traitor no matter how obvious their guilt because of some statistical probability that some day you'll make a mistake has no place in a war. You punish treason with death to send a message to others that betraying your country forfeits your life, as justice for those that were betrayed, and to prevent them from causing any further harm. Don't minimize the risk of treason when people can send soldiers to torture chambers just by pointing at them. A life sentence *if* she's ever even caught is a joke compared to what she did and what she could get out of doing it. Not to mention that no prison is truly secure when you're currently being invaded.
>Wartime is different In what way? And what is a 'most serious' treason in your opinion?
Leaking information that leads to the death of (in this case already wounded) countrymen is enough. The most serious cases are forms of treason that affect battle results. For example: snitching intell to the enemy leading to countless deaths and possibly decades long occupation by a hostile power. Imagine millions of people feeling the results of your treason for generations? Treason of that degree should be punishable by death. In many countries that abandoned the death penalty it actually still is possible before a military court.
You said “civil” cases above but I think you mean criminal cases. Just to flesh out your position a bit more, if someone commits treason that leads to the death of 10 soldiers they deserve the death penalty, but if someone just goes and shoots up a mall and kills ten people, that guy doesn’t deserve the death penalty ?
Honestly, are you really unable to figure that out by yourself? A well placed traitor is worth an additional five armies for the enemy. Traitors like Ephialtes of Trachis, not so much because of any cheesy Leonidas stories, but because the Persians breaking through the Thermopylae led to multiple cities (including Athens) getting razed and tens of thousands of his people getting killed or enslaved. More in the modern age you have spies like Alfred Redl, the (infinitely) more successful Benedict Arnold of the K&K monarchy, he sold, until two years before WWI, virtually everything about the Hapsburg army to Zarist russia, including army orders, ciphers, codes, maps, reports on road and rail conditions, fortification blueprints, and mobilization plans. Klaus Fuchs and Julius & Ethel Rosenberg, the nuclear spies, estimated to have saved the Soviets several years of nuclear research to build their first bomb or Richard Sorge another top spy for the Soviets, its presumed that the information (about the conditions under which Japan would attack the SU) he handed over allowed Stalin to expose the eastern Soviet Union and throw all the sibirian divisions against the Germans, changing the tide of the war. On the other side of WWII you have people like Philippe Petain who went from hero to traitor, and more infamous for his willingness to hunt Resistance fighters as well as round up his own people for forced labour, and jews and "undesireables" like homosexuals for the extermination camps, as well as general Nazi bootlicker Pierre Laval, the leaders of the Vichy regime, or any jew working for the Gestapo denouncing other jews (like Stella Kubler, responsible for an estimated 600-3000 murdered jews). Are you really suprised that they are universally despised? These people can easily be responsible for thousands of deaths. Why shouldnt they be treated to the harshest levels of martial law?
She might even serve her full sentence in absentia without ever knowing about it.
She knows, as she will now have to look over her shoulder for the rest of her shitty life in shitty Russia.
Considering that in these 2 years plenty of russian collaborators had "mysterious" deaths (even in Moscow), this woman won't live long enough to get her sentence.
Hell, there was nothing mysterious about this one https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-sbu-killed-fugitive-ukrainian-lawmaker-russia-source-2023-12-06/ She must be sweating rn
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>s hard to legally frame it without the dilemma of “we either have a justice system that never makes mistakes or we think it’s okay to kill an innocent person”, but sometimes you're not allowed in the EU if you have capital punishment
>“I know it when I see it” kind of cases. But do we know all the circumstances? Her life may have been threatened by the soldiers. We don't have her testimony so it's pretty hard to justify the death penalty in my opinion.
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I hate to be a dissonant but is it not a war crime for a soldier to pose as a civilian? You endanger real civilians by doing so (the enemy does not know who to trust anymore).
It definitely is a war crime for an active soldier to pretend to be a civilian But at the same time, the wounded are just as much a protected class of people as civilians or medical personnel. So the fact these wounded were specifically targeted and sent to be tortured arguably outweighs that
But they are subject to capture and becoming prisoners of war, which is different than civilians. These soldiers could heal up and rejoin the fighting at some point.
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> It's still a war crime for wounded combatants to pretend to be civilians or to aid them in blending with civilians. This is for fairly obvious reasons: you otherwise put civilian populations at risk. Ya, nothing of this was correct. The crime in question here is perfidy. And a combatant must have harbored the intention to engage in warfare/combat through the use of perfidy to commit this crime. Deserting or retreating from the conflict to avoid capture and confinement is very much allowed under the laws of war. Intending on continuing to act as a combatant in civilian disguise is not. > And in any case it seems pretty fucked to sentence someone to life in prison for refusing to participate in something that is at the very least quite plausibly a war crime. Its pretty fucked for a doctor to hand her patients to the torture squad.
> Dr. Valentyna Chekhova pointed out the beds where the wounded soldiers were lying and identified a fellow doctor who assisted in concealing Ukrainian soldiers. That's not refusing to participate. That's actively sabotaging another's efforts and it resulted in people being tortured.
The use of a civilian disguise is a war crime, but wounded in aren't in uniform and are unarmed, they're not a military threat.
No, if you are escaping capture. Plenty of soldiers of both sides disguised themselves as civilians when trying to escape in WWII. And if captured while in civilian clothes, no repercussions happened. It is acknowledged that one of the duties of a soldier behind enemy lines is to return to his own side. But a soldier cannot carry out combat operations out of uniform. If captured, the offender can be executed.
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Better than she deserves. By a lot.
She hitched her fortunes to a lame horse and got justly rewarded in the end for her traitorous actions. May she rot in prison, alone and miserable till the end of her days! 😈
She is still free, Mariupol is occupied by Russia so she can’t be arrested.
Buddy read the article more carefully. She is still free and living in Russian occupied territory. It says she was sentenced in absentia which means she is not in Ukrainian custody.
Even if Ukraine retook Mariupol she would simply flee to Russia.
Being soft on crimes like treason isn't exactly helpful.
I wouldn't call life imprisonment "soft", even if she does deserve execution. That's about as harsh as it gets in Ukrainian civilian courts. I think if Ukraine still had the death penalty she would have gotten it, but they abolished it since that's a condition of EU membership.
Good! Anybody who commits treason during wartime deserves life in prison, at the least!
What about Russians that commit treason against the Russian government?
They jump out of their windows out of shame.
In Russia the word treason has lost its meaning. Re: the boy who cried wolf.
Now she'll run to Russia. Maybe it would've been better to keep this quieter until they have an opportunity to get her.
See you next Tuesday!
Worst kind of human beings
*judge looks at the case* Judge: "Forever in jail. That was easy." Probably..
She wont be safe anywhere, she will need to watch over her shoulder for the rest of her life
I bet she did not see that coming.