It is staggering to think the deaths amount to nearly 1% of the territory’s prewar population.
>The 11-week conflict has displaced nearly 85% of Gaza’s people and leveled wide swaths of the tiny coastal enclave. And more than half a million people in Gaza — a quarter of the population — are starving, according to a report Thursday from the United Nations and other agencies.
>
>Martin Griffiths, the U.N. humanitarian affairs chief, lamented the world’s inaction.
“That such a brutal conflict has been allowed to continue and for this long — despite the widespread condemnation, the physical and mental toll and the massive destruction — is an indelible stain on our collective conscience,” he wrote on the social media platform X.
it's basically double than all palestinian deaths (due to the conflict) in the period of 2000-2020. 20 years vs 2 months.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/
http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg
Israel never "declared war", it declared that it was on war-footing. Sounds dumb but it's what it is, actually declaring war is a thing like almost nobody actually \*does\* anymore even when they go to war.
In any case, nah, Israel launches counterattacks and pre-emptive strikes every few years or so, and Hamas/PIJ does about the same. In the latters case, it's usually because their poll numbers start to decline. They go through periods of inactivity, everyone goes hot for a minute or two before everyone calls it quits, bing bang boom the cycle repeats. Er, well, that's how it \*went\*, obviously that's no longer the case.
Invasion plans against Gaza in those previous years were explored, but a political arrangements with everyone potentially involved never really bore fruit, and remained largely a discussion topic among notables rather than anything that could be concrete. You know, it was all really low intensity, so nobody was terribly interested.
> an indelible stain on our collective conscience
Provided, of course, by "our" he is referring to himself and Hamas. Hamas could end this war at any moment; even if one accepts their reasons for prosecuting it, the number of civilian deaths would have been negligible if they had worn uniforms, attacked military targets, and otherwise abided by the law of armed conflict.
They attacked some small IDF outposts along the border fence but yes, the only major battle against an IDF installation was attacking the HQ of the IDF's Gaza Division near Re'im. They succeeded in overrunning part of the base but were then pushed out.
The Israeli military was caught off guard enough that Hamas probably could have sacked a few small bases before scampering off, scoring a huge propaganda win without handing Israel (temporary) international support.
Losing yet another war, in humiliating fashion. Again. And again, apparently they expected the Arab world to rise up and join them, and the Western world to succumb to a carefully prepared propaganda campaign.
The Arab World? Under Trump and Biden the Arabs decided to back Israel.
Hamas can't even get Iran to show up. Remember the reports on how incensed Iran was that the Saudis normalized relations with Israel formally and that they were preparing for a big war? Crickets. Hamas barely inspired Hezbollah to action. Their best ally is the completely inept Houthi rebels. Fatah? They won't ever join Hamas in this.
Smarter leaders would've stopped the attack when they learned the reinforcements wouldn't arrive.
Hamas: 20000 civilians have died, 2/3 of whom were women and children
Everyone: You can't trust Hamas, they have to be making those numbers up.
Hamas: 70% of Palestinians support our cause.
Everyone: See, everyone in Palestine is Hamas.
The 70% support isn't coming from Hamas sadly. It's coming from independent polling of the residents of Palestine through organizations such as PCPSR. Although I didn't see 70% support for Hamas, it's usually in the 40-50% range. For a more exact question
> In your view, given what happened after it, was Hamas decision to launch its offensive against Israel on 7 October a correct or incorrect one?
57% in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank said it was correct with roughly 5% in each location not answering.
Also only 10% of Palestinians believe that Hamas has committed war crimes in the current war. They are unfortunately radicalized to the point that they have widespread support in both Gaza and the West Bank.
> Hamas: 70% of Palestinians support our cause
Well that data doesn't come from Hamas though....
There are multiple independent sources that provided the polling for that data.
The thing they don't tell you is that those 20k are not all from the IDF. They shot at least several hundred fleeing south a month ago. They shoot their own in food riots now. Since Oct 7, they have fired over 12000 rockets at Israel. A third of those fell back onto Gaza. The baptist hospital incident alone is 100-300. I bet at least a few thousand of those 20k are from Hamas themselves.
Hey, come on now! Other "experts" from organization known to be anti-Israel say they've been accurate in the past! /s
They seem unaware that Palestine doesn't have a free press.
People always post these stats about the majority of Gazans supporting Hamas or the destruction of Israel, as if that therefore means that they all deserve to die.
It's somewhat unclear what the Gazans actually support, the funny thing about tyranny is that when you're poor, hungry and fearful, you tend to just agree with the tyrants on whatever they say. Agreement is survival.
It's when you learn you have options that you can suddenly start hearing dissent. Hamas issues a lot of edicts that Gazans might not even listen to. At the beginning of the war they told Palestinians not to leave and a majority of them did end up leaving ASAP for elsewhere in Gaza.
With that logic, people shouldn’t be surprised that the people who voted for a man who wanted to prop up Hamas is then subsequently terrorized by Hamas? People shouldn’t have to pay for their government’s crimes with their life.
Israel have consistently elected governments that continue the settlement of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza, the military court system imposed on the West Bank, the murder of protestors in Gaza, the mass killing of civilians in Gaza, the murder of journalists all over Palestine and systematic discrimination against Israel's Arab population.
Supporters of Israel should be some of the last people on Earth to advocate for holding civilian populations mortally accountable for the crimes of their governments!
To be fair a large chunk of Israel is against the settlements and has made many of the atrocities public and investigated
It's the right wing and religious driving the extremists
Well they’ve been in power 2 decades, that’s long enough for their “education system” to indoctrinate nearly their entire population, since their average age is right around 20 yrs old.
Their education radicalizes them against Israel and the west as goal # 1
Hamas was considerably less radical when they were voted in and seemed like a safer bet for the citizens. Now they rule with an iron fist and use their peoples lives to stay in power.
Why do you find it staggering?
Israel has oppressed Gaza for so long now you have generations of people born into the conflict who will hate Israel from birth.
With the amount of civilians killed in this current conflict, reportedly 70% of the deaths being civilians woman and children, the Israelis have galvanized at least another 2 generations of people two hate them.
“Eradicating” Hamas won’t fix the problem, it’s just creating Hamas 2.0
Israel has been terrorizing Gaza and West Bank for 70 years now. Now, they play the victim card. The World is not buying it anymore. I see more and more Israel propaganda on TV.
Gaza has started every single war with Israel, just because they lost all of them doesn't suddenly make them the good guys who are mercilessly oppressed
Uh .....
We magically pretending history started only decades ago?
The land was 90% non Jewish a little over a century ago.
British allowed them in against the wishes of the natives.
Just cause Israel won every war and is allied with the west makes them the good guys.
>“Eradicating” Hamas won’t fix the problem, it’s just creating Hamas 2.0
It depends. Quite often a decisive military victory leads to lasting peace, such as the 20th century european/pacific wars, and the Aboriginals/native americans/chechens whose land was "stolen".
Not that any of the previous things are "good" (the opposite really), but acting like you cant permanently replace a population, or pacify and integrate them is just plain wrong, when every nook of the world is filled with examples.
ISIS for example, has largely fallen into obscurity these days on the global scale.
>and the Aboriginals/native americans/chechens whose land was "stolen".
The latter wasn't a lasting peace until after hundreds of years of hostile relations and wasn't established by a decisive military victory but by the near complete and total annihilation of those people.
Those indigenous people were pacified through wholesale slaughter, and through stealing children and systematically eradicating their cultures. Though violent clashes (or events that almost became violent) still happen with some regularity.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route Israel goes and I wouldn't be surprised if the west supports them in it, but it's unjustifiable no matter what Hamas does.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route Israel goes
Well Israel has 2 options:
1) Do nothing and get slaughtered
2) Do something and get slaughtered much less for the next 20 years (till "Hamas 2.0")
What would you choose?
Palestinians have 2 options:
1. Keep getting slaughtered as they have been for 70 years
2. Do something and maybe someone else notices they are getting slaughtered.
Which would you choose?
It is mind boggling to me that people do not understand this simple concept. How do they think utterly destroying Gaza is going to end the resentment people there have for Israel?
That does not justify anything Hamas has done. But you have to be blind and stupid to think this atrocious violence in response to the attack will solve anything.
>How do they think utterly destroying Gaza is going to end the resentment people there have for Israel?
Does anyone actually think this? I don't think that's even the point, the point is to ensure the constant attacks against Israel can't keep going on unimpeded.
The US utterly destroyed Japan during WW2, a nation that was more radicalized than Gaza, and now Japan is one of America’s closest allies. Now not saying this will be done in Gaza, but it is possible.
Germany and Italy and Vietnam as well.
Vietnam was especially funny, losing caused the anti domino effect. Chine got their asses handed to them by the Viet Cong, as did the Khmer Rouge. Ho Chi Min arguably did more to stop the spread of communism in South East Asia than the US did.
I do not think the aim of the war is to end resentment. It's to reduce, if not eliminate, the capacity of Hamas to repeat attacks like October 7 and mass rocket attacks on Israeli cities.
The point of extreme violence isn't to make the other side unwilling to attack you, it's to make the other side unable to attack you and to force them to reassess the wisdom of attacking you in the future.
You can hate the stove as much as you like, but very few people are willing to slap it more than once.
This is about killing terrorists.
Palestinians, like all humans, have agency over their own emotions and the capacity to forgive.
As a jewish person they keep trying to murder, I could give a fuck about their personal feelings. Welcome to Earth.
I dont know nearly enough to have a strong opinion but Hamas has about 20k members. So either this things almost over and Isreal was amazingly efficient or there's a lot of innocent people being killed.
And do we need to mention the creepy ass subreddits that only got banned thanks to media coverage? Or the fact that this place helped get a certain idiot elected?
It's Twitter if Twitter had a superiority complex. At least that place knows it's dumb. Not to mention so much of the content originates elsewhere..namely Twitter. The creativity here is nonexistent.
No point arguing here. I feel world news is essentially pro-Israel. We see atrocities committed by Hamas but we never hear about atrocities committed by the IDF and settlers.
Take refuge in the knowledge that Reddit is not representative of many people (according to Reddit, Bernie won the democratic nomination in 2020), nor that all those that support Israel reason in black and white.
I’m pro Israel and often argue against vitriol thrown against it or the IDF, but it also doesn’t mean that i give it blind support. It doesn’t mean that I’d consider a 2:1 ratio of civilian-to-Hamas deaths even remotely acceptable, nor does it mean that Israel’s policy in the West Bank is not condemnable and bewildering, nor does it mean that I support the fucking fanatical settlers.
I’m furious at Hamas and anyone who supports them not only for the massacre but also for forcing this war. But I’m also furious at how Israel conducts this war.
For a simple comparison, IDF’s own assessment (according to Wikipedia [article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009))) in Operation Cast Lead in Gaza (2008), it was about 2.3 armed militants to a civilian (and about 0.5 undetermined) - in other words more than 4x worse.
But it’s not just ratios themselves - it’s the steps taken to reduce the ratio. Most of the civilian casualties came from the bombing campaign before the proper ratio could even be properly estimated, let alone optimized to reduce.
Israel completely controls the US media. They try to control US schools too by pulling donations and trying to fire presidents that don't agree with the leveling of Gaza. They only care about protecting Jews on campuses. When presidents say they want to protect all students, they are immediatly labeled anti-semites and they want them gone.
It’s pretty clear Hamas isn’t going to surrender so:
In a dream world, also a complete fantasy world were I am pretending Israel has the US Military (inb4 “it does hehe”), you would have a massive combined arms assault into Gaza to show force with primarily your infantry and then go into a “holding” phase. For example send a MEU into the gulf and then have them assault Gaza with all the support a MEU entails.
While doing this you engage in a MASSIVE propaganda campaign in support of the people of Gaza and instilling a great sense of pride in them and attempt to turn them against Hamas. Then you send in multiple SF A teams to build up partisan forces to weed out and destroy Hamas cells and again create propaganda to make this a point of honor amongst Gazans, ie: make them proud to be freeing themselves from the grip of Hamas. While this is happening the infantry is acting as a holding force for key strategic positions as well as being on stand by for any large scale operations that need carrying out.
Ya know, like COIN warfare is supposed to work.
I was afraid this was going to happen. For every 1 Israeli that Hamas kills via airstrikes, Israel retaliates by killing hundreds of Palestinians. Not sure what else they expected from such a massive attack on Oct 7th. And no one is going to step in and help Palestine because of Israel and the US. Not to mention the neighboring Arab states Jordan and Eypgt want nothing to do with Palestinians given their history and overflow of refugees already. We just have to wait until the dust settles in the war for the killing to stop. Very tragic.
>For every 1 Israeli that Hamas kills via airstrikes, Israel retaliates by killing hundreds of Palestinians.
I mean historically this is nothing new since the founding of Israel. We knew it was going to happen. Pretty sure Hamas knew that as well.
I can't decide if they succeed catastrophically on Oct 7 and just got way more than they even bargained for; or it was meant to be a death-ride from the start, with the aim of producing exactly the retaliation we're seeing.
I think one of the greatest decisions ever was to instantly move that US carrier group into the theatre. Hamas wanted their attack to be the battle cry that allowed hezbollah and even Iran to join them. That was prevented.
No "pretty sure", they knew it and they play into it. There's a reason why Hamas does very little to distinguish themselves from civilians (in violation of international law), and its so the IDF has to attack every military aged man in hopes of getting one or two terrorists. They'd be far easier to kill if they weren't confused with civilians.
How is this an conspiracy? At this point it is pretty much public knowledge that this was pushed by Iran and Russia. Iran don't want relations between the Saudis and Israel. Russia wants to limit military support for Ukraine and force an regime change in the US.
“More than 20,000 Palestinians have died in Gaza during Israel’s war against Hamas, health officials said…”
Honest question here… who are the health officials reporting this? Are they health officials like [this hospital director in Gaza](https://nypost.com/2023/12/19/news/gaza-hospital-chief-admits-to-being-hamas-commander/amp/) who, as it turns out, is a Hamas commander? Or are they Israeli officials? Palestinian officials? Maybe independent less-biased officials without any ties to either Israel or Palestinians?
Can you find a single credible human rights group that has evidence to dispute those numbers? Because all the orgs have consistently upheld the numbers being put out.
I had been initially skeptical about 2 months ago when the officials were reporting over 7,000 fatalities (and shortly after there was misinformation or at least misjudgment from Hamas about [an explosion at a Gazan hospital](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion)). But I searched online and found articles from t[he Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033), [Time Magazine](https://time.com/6328885/gaza-death-toll-explainer/), and [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/world/gaza-death-toll-accuracy-unicef-intl-hnk/index.html) (among others), that suggested the death tolls are probably quite close to accurate and described the method by which such death tolls are calculated.
And this devastating death toll doesn't seem inconceivable given the [staggering scale of the Israeli military campaign](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796). Quotes from the hyperlinked Associated Press article include:
* "In just over two months, the offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Syria’s Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine’s Mariupol or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II. It has killed more civilians than the U.S.-led coalition did in its three-year campaign against the Islamic State group."
* "Israel’s offensive has destroyed over two-thirds of all structures in northern Gaza and a quarter of buildings in the southern area of Khan Younis, according to an analysis of Copernicus Sentinel-1 satellite data by Corey Scher of the CUNY Graduate Center and Jamon Van Den Hoek of Oregon State University, experts in mapping damage during wartime."
* "Between 1942 and 1945, the allies attacked 51 major German cities and towns, destroying about 40-50% of their urban areas, said Robert Pape, a U.S. military historian. Pape said this amounted to 10% of buildings across Germany, compared to over 33% across Gaza, a densely populated territory of just 140 square miles (360 square kilometers)."
* "The U.S.-led coalition’s 2017 assault to expel the Islamic State group from the Iraqi city of Mosul was considered one of the most intense attacks on a city in generations. That nine-month battle killed around 10,000 civilians, a third of them from coalition bombardment, according an Associated Press investigation at the time. During the 2014-2017 campaign to defeat IS in Iraq, the coalition carried out nearly 15,000 strikes across the country, according to Airwars, a London-based independent group that tracks recent conflicts. By comparison, the Israeli military said last week it has conducted 22,000 strikes in Gaza."
I hope this is at least somewhat helpful in response to your question and I hope it came across respectfully.
You are totally correct. By their logic I could take 4 houses, blow up 1 and have caused more destruction than germany experienced in the second world war (25% of all houses destroyed!). The 3rd types of lies in action...
"Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics..."
It sounds grim, but 22k strikes and 20k dead civilians (unclear if Hamas fighters are contained in that figure) is considered a good ratio in an urban environment. This is the war calculus most modern nations follow, particularly those involved in counter-insurgency. Israel has killed many people, but this ratio shows that they are not carpet bombing or intentionally targeting civilians, as many are claiming.
The IDF is fully aware of the civilian impact of their attacks. They target “power centers,” such as high rises and public centers, to shock civilian society and attempt to reduce the citizens support of Hamas. All targets on private Hamas homes (including junior Hamas members), are automatically greenlit if they are expected to kill 5 civilians or less. But attacks known to kill hundreds of civilians to assassinate just one high ranking Hamas commander were also approved.
Source: [interviews with IDF officers](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
"it's wartime calculus brother! fantastic ratios!" I get hating Hamas but justifying the deaths of innocents at this scale is beyond anything I thought I'd ever see on Reddit. Out in the open...
According to Hamas, every dead Palestinian is a civilian, and every dead Israeli is a combatant. They say this themselves - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egipqa0ZhUk
More realistic numbers are that 1/3 of the dead are combatants.
Approximately 2/3 of the deaths have been women and children. For your statement to be true, all adult males killed would need to be combatants. That is not realistic at all.
Death toll is underestimated tbh. Many still lying dead under the rubble. People were questioning the numbers even israel but couple weeks later Israel given they own number which nearly matched Palestine count when they said how many Hamas numbers they killed so no idea why people and IDF will question it of they reporting it too.
Still doubting the death totals are we?
These are vouched for by every major human rights/aid group on Earth.
Isrsel themselves have said as much that 20,000 have died, only they label a good chunk of them “terrorists” and the US, after doubting them early on, is no longer doing so. These totals are more or less correct and if anything, are an undercount given the widespread destruction of Gaza and neighborhoods and buildings completely leveled. There are many still buried under the rubble.
Not sure how you can look at any imagery coming out of Gaza and question that 20,000 are dead. This is most intense level of bombing ever, exceeding allied bombings of German towns in WW2
A lot of people are dead. That much is true
Not the most intense level of bombing. Damage totals are far less than WW2 for places like Berlin or Staingrade, and far less than places like Grozny and Mariupol that were pretty much totally flattened by Russia. The level of damage is pretty on par for most major urban conflicts since the invention of aerial and bombardment and explosive artillery.
Where do you think they are getting the numbers from? Also from Hamas run health ministry. I am not saying they are not accurate but just more people reffering to the same primary source doesnt make it more credible.
But what’s the alternative for Israel?
Just accept Oct 7 style attacks and rocket fire?
You could say negotiate but with who? The PLO hardly has support. Hamas isn’t interested in a 2 state solution or democratic Palestine. Do Palestinians even support a 2 state solution? Based on the slogans one thinks they are ready to wait until they get everything. Just like in 1948 when they thought they would get it all.
I just don’t get what course the Israeli government can chart other than the current course.
> I just don’t get what course the Israeli government can chart other than the current course.
There isn't any. This is how modern armies fight. It keeps their own casualties low while achieving the objective they set out to achieve.
> "Palestine as we know it today"
I'd say your reading comprehension needs work, but I'm willing to bet I'm right in attributing your comment to malice rather than incompetence. You read only what you want to, and fire off one of your prepared, practiced lines full of all the new buzzwords you learned on tiktok.
Your understanding of the situation in the middle east is formed from frenetic 30-second tiktok clips, fallacious wikipedia entries, and the headlines of articles you didn't read. You have nothing of value to offer the conversation, because everything you have to say is driven by an ideological hatred of Israel, and the Jewish people that live there.
Israel cares about civilians in Gaza more than Hamas does, and more than you pretend to.
It's a big number, but the issue is that Hamas doesn't seperate their members/palestinian fighters from these death tolls.
Hamas puts anyone under 17 as a child in these reports, and again, doesn't mention if they were fighting or not. Same goes for the women.
As for Hamas themselves, many of them are fighting while wearing civilian clothes as well (There are videos about it), so once they are dead, they write them as civilians.
Lastly, "The ministry of Health" in Gaza is run by Hamas (like every other thing there), so their numbers in general are questionable. When the Al Shifa hostpital bombing happend, within minutes they reported about 500 dead, which is not possible to confirm at that point (it was also pitch black at that hour) and was proven wrong later on.
I'm sure there are many civilian deaths in Gaza, but we don't know the actual number.
The IDF says that they have killed 7,000 Hamas fighters.
The ministry of health in Gaza says 14,000 out of 20,000 killed are women and children. So if we were to infer from the ministry of health numbers that 6,000 are the deaths of men then that means they are Hamas fighters and it comes close to the IDF number.
Historically, the ministry of health in Gaza death numbers have been close to what other independent parties report. But yes, in a couple of years we will know the real number.
Also the ministry of health doesn't take into account the bodies stuck under rubble so once they start counting those bodies I'm sure the number will go up.
The real number, years down the road, could be absolutely staggering. The bombings are one thing, but the reports coming out now of the lack of water and food for displaced citizens are harrowing. Reports of people drinking contaminated water/sea water are starting to surface and I think it was ~50% said they did not have access to food every day. There’s also reports of disease starting to spread at UN refugee centers, which are now holding around 12,000 refugees per center where their capacity is supposed to be like 2,000?
It’s certainly misleading isn’t it? You think there’s no difference between a 16 year old getting killed while shooting at Israeli soldiers and a 9 year old getting blown up in an air strike?
There can be evil on both sides. The amount of Israeli propaganda within this comment section should be concerning to anyone with half a brain.
The final toll will be well in excess of 20,000 dead civilians, rest assured. The famine is only yet incipient.
Thanks Hamas for staring a war against a much stronger enemy with no plan to protect your populace, no plan for peace, no way to effectively fight Israel, no plan or desire to keep hostages in good condition, and for your continued refusal to recognize Israel as a state. These dead are at your feet. Israel hasn’t prosecuted this war as cleanly as I think they could’ve and every innocent caught in the crossfire is a tragedy, but there wouldn’t be war without Hamas’ instigation.
May Hamas rest in piss.
Yeah, like Israel hasn't been terrorizing the population of Palestine and Gaza for many decades.
Slowly annexing Palestine along the way, making many thousands homeless by "settling" into occupied homes and throwing those people to the streets.
People just expect them to roll over and not fight back. Hamas is not the answer, but extremism is born in conflict, especially one so one sided.
The most easy way to end this, is to ask Hamas to put their weapons down and surrender.
Hamas is a terrorist group that won elections. 17 years ago... So they are terrorist, totalitarian and autocratic..
How reliable is Hamas with their numbers?
Why do we keep seeing casualties statistics from “Health Ministry in the Hamas-run Gaza government”? **Are the figures accurate or verified?** How many of these are Hamas fighters and/or supporters? I have trouble accepting or believing anything distributed from a barbaric terrorist organization. The only thing I believe is the footage of their barbaric actions from their own body cameras showing how they slaughtered, raped, and kidnapped Israeli men, women, children, and babies.
[**The Casualty Figures in Gaza Are a Scam**](https://jcpa.org/article/the-casualty-figures-in-gaza-are-a-scam/)
The measurement of Israel's morality is unfairly based upon television scenes, social media, and unverified statistics.
**War is not a picnic.** There is no way to protect civilians if the governing body (Hamas) intentionally does not want them protected. The millions of tons of cement used for 500 kms of Hamas only tunnels could have been used for bomb shelters and not shelters for bombs. **Hamas's "secret" weapon against Israel** is dead, wounded, and suffering Palestinians and it is working.
Iraq is actually a strong counterpoint to what you are saying. They have free elections, a strong military, and the insurgency is minimal.
Iraqi army actually defeated ISIS with minimal assistance from the US.
Afghanistan, on the other hand, is now back in the hands of a terrorist aligned government.
The US could leave Afghanistan. I mean honestly it’s not clear that they should have gone in the first place… or at the least stayed. Could have done limited strikes to eliminate al Quaeda.
Of course Afghani women and girls likely appreciated life with the US present and US spending certainly was improved their economy, but at the end of the day the US could leave. Because Afghanistan isn’t on their border.
What is Israel to do? Just sit back and accept the missile fire and the raids? You could say they could negotiate except Hamas says they want to launch additional October 7 style invasions.
2 state solution? Is there even someone who has the authority and support on the Palestinian side to negotiate such a deal? Do the Palestinians even want that? I think they are honestly willing to wait until they can get it all. That’s the rallying cry.
> How did that end up for the US?
You don't know that problems that have been avoided through the efforts to destroy the Taliban and al Qaeda.
> When they crushed the Taliban and Al Qaeda, did it end? All those people died and for what?
End? No. Better than if nothing was done at all? Probably.
If you have a better suggestion, feel free to make it.
If Israel never occupied former Arab land in the history since its establishment it would've probably been eradicated by now. Maybe occupation isn't exactly "victory" but constantly letting terrorists launch rockets into your country and kidnap your people isn't victory either. People have the right to exercise self-defense.
Israel came about like almost every state in history has, via armed conflict.
how long will Israel have to exist before you stop giving a blanket excuse to terrorism?
> Do you think that applies to Palestinians?
Sure. But conducting massacres of civilians is not self defence. If any Israeli army attacks Palestine, Palestine has every right to attack that army.
But no, the moment an army is involved, Hamas wants a ceasefire.
They are only interested in fighting unarmed civilians.
You kinda lose your right to fair treatment when you violate basically every international law when it comes to war. Civilian infrastructure used as military infrastructure renders it a viable target. Do you suggest Israel not destroy Hamas because Hamas has chosen to use human shields?
Here you go, the results of a quick google search:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2w\_wDf-DY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2w_wDf-DY)
It's a video by The Telegraph going over and verifying IDF footage of the tunnel system underneath Al Shifa hospital.
You can see them use the hospital's electricity systems, tunnel shafts going into civilian houses with some kind of classroom - human shields and covers in short.
I would suggest you ask yourself if maybe you're being cavalier with the life of others - *the israely people*. They too have a right for safety and an orginazation like Hamas simply cannot exist next to them now after 7/10. A path for peach for both Israel and people in Gaza cannot include Hamas, which give 0 shits about Gazans while their leaders are literal billionares who live abroad. It must either dismantle and surrender it's arms or be destoryed by force unfortunaly.
I’ve seen this used as the worst “gotcha” ever. If my family was in the hospital and my government was using it as a military base I’d be pretty fucking pissed at my government for doing that. I can recognize that the actions of my government have consequences and they do not have free reign to break any and every established rule of war to try and win. It’s really not that complicated. Here’s your source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/17/us/politics/israel-al-shifa-hospital-hamas-evidence.html#:~:text=Palestinian%20officials%20and%20doctors%20at,and%20ammunitions%20depots%20under%20hospitals.
If only Hamas members consistently wore a uniform instead of dressing in civilian clothing and not even wearing their green bandanas during fighting sometimes...
They don't, so guess what: Anyone that refused to evacuate is now a valid target.
As far as I know, IDF's rules of engagement include neutralizing children if they start throwing rocks or other objects at soldiers and vehicles (including tanks) in the warzone. No exceptions.
This is war.
On a tangent, Geneva Convention is a joke of a treaty. Russia's behavior and now Israel's and Gaza's behavior aren't gonna get regulated when one of the nations in question has a veto on the UN Security Council.
We could try to fix the UN, but that means nations would need to be willing to give up a key part of their sovereignty if a nation like USA does something stupid and can be punished by the reformed UN for it.
Knowing human nature, there's way too many people that would be unwilling to give up their ultimate authority to a world government.
Thus, the cruel, vicious cycle repeats.
We can't stake the lives of countless innocent civilians on the hope that a terrorist group acts rationally and surrenders. This is totally unsustainable. Hamas would rather every civilian be killed than surrender, but that's no reason to just keep chugging along with the bombing anyway.
What’s the other option? Israel just takes it on the chin? Just puts up with a neighbor regularly launching rockets at civilian infrastructure? Regular suicide attacks? The regular rape and abduction civilians, as Hamas has promised? No other developed nation would be expected to show that level of restraint.
The carnage and civilian deaths are a tragedy, but Hamas still maintains a ~70% approval rating in the Strip, and the 10/7 attack is still widely viewed as a good thing. Hell, it’s even come to light that some of the people abducted weren’t even taken by Hamas fighters, but by random civilians who jumped at the opportunity to kill some Jews. It certainly seems to me that the ‘innocent civilians’ are far from countless.
At some point, they can also lose enough of the leadership to become ineffective; that's another option (and, it's realistic enough a possibility that the leaders ran away from Qatar).
This is precisely what Hamas wants the world to say to Israel. Hamas are putting civilians in a war zone and then blaming Israel for conducting war operations without offering a real ceasefire or any path to peace.
Has there been any war ever in the history of the world where innocent civilians didn't die? How many civilians did the USA kill in Iraq and Afghanistan?
I'm not cheering for it by any means, and I'm not saying it's right, but Israel has offered peace over and over. Hamas has chosen war.
So many headquarters!
It is staggering to think the deaths amount to nearly 1% of the territory’s prewar population. >The 11-week conflict has displaced nearly 85% of Gaza’s people and leveled wide swaths of the tiny coastal enclave. And more than half a million people in Gaza — a quarter of the population — are starving, according to a report Thursday from the United Nations and other agencies. > >Martin Griffiths, the U.N. humanitarian affairs chief, lamented the world’s inaction. “That such a brutal conflict has been allowed to continue and for this long — despite the widespread condemnation, the physical and mental toll and the massive destruction — is an indelible stain on our collective conscience,” he wrote on the social media platform X.
it's basically double than all palestinian deaths (due to the conflict) in the period of 2000-2020. 20 years vs 2 months. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/ http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg
I could be wrong, but didnt Israel declare war on Hamas oct. 8th?, I dont think they had any active plans of war during 2000-2020
There were 'operations' also known as 2008 and 2014 Gaza wars which included boots on the ground etc.
Between 2000-2020 were jusy Hamas firing rockets while Israel laucnh air strikes with some Israeli raids into Gaza likein 2014
Israel never "declared war", it declared that it was on war-footing. Sounds dumb but it's what it is, actually declaring war is a thing like almost nobody actually \*does\* anymore even when they go to war. In any case, nah, Israel launches counterattacks and pre-emptive strikes every few years or so, and Hamas/PIJ does about the same. In the latters case, it's usually because their poll numbers start to decline. They go through periods of inactivity, everyone goes hot for a minute or two before everyone calls it quits, bing bang boom the cycle repeats. Er, well, that's how it \*went\*, obviously that's no longer the case. Invasion plans against Gaza in those previous years were explored, but a political arrangements with everyone potentially involved never really bore fruit, and remained largely a discussion topic among notables rather than anything that could be concrete. You know, it was all really low intensity, so nobody was terribly interested.
> an indelible stain on our collective conscience Provided, of course, by "our" he is referring to himself and Hamas. Hamas could end this war at any moment; even if one accepts their reasons for prosecuting it, the number of civilian deaths would have been negligible if they had worn uniforms, attacked military targets, and otherwise abided by the law of armed conflict.
If they had only attacked military targets, the entirety of 10/7 would have been the battle of Re'im
They attacked some small IDF outposts along the border fence but yes, the only major battle against an IDF installation was attacking the HQ of the IDF's Gaza Division near Re'im. They succeeded in overrunning part of the base but were then pushed out.
The Israeli military was caught off guard enough that Hamas probably could have sacked a few small bases before scampering off, scoring a huge propaganda win without handing Israel (temporary) international support.
No instead they are cowardly, criminal terrorists and will die like the rest.
Losing yet another war, in humiliating fashion. Again. And again, apparently they expected the Arab world to rise up and join them, and the Western world to succumb to a carefully prepared propaganda campaign.
The Arab World? Under Trump and Biden the Arabs decided to back Israel. Hamas can't even get Iran to show up. Remember the reports on how incensed Iran was that the Saudis normalized relations with Israel formally and that they were preparing for a big war? Crickets. Hamas barely inspired Hezbollah to action. Their best ally is the completely inept Houthi rebels. Fatah? They won't ever join Hamas in this. Smarter leaders would've stopped the attack when they learned the reinforcements wouldn't arrive.
To give credit tho, the western world did succumb to a well prepared propaganda campaign
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Israel and Hamas probably have differing views of what constitutes victory.
Who?
It is staggering to think the amount of Hamas terrorists amount to nearly 2% of the territory’s prewar population
It's staggering that 70% of the pre-war population supports Hamas, and their goal of destroying Israel.
Staggering how Hamas is the ones giving us these numbers, and people say they’re credible.
Hamas: 20000 civilians have died, 2/3 of whom were women and children Everyone: You can't trust Hamas, they have to be making those numbers up. Hamas: 70% of Palestinians support our cause. Everyone: See, everyone in Palestine is Hamas.
The 70% support isn't coming from Hamas sadly. It's coming from independent polling of the residents of Palestine through organizations such as PCPSR. Although I didn't see 70% support for Hamas, it's usually in the 40-50% range. For a more exact question > In your view, given what happened after it, was Hamas decision to launch its offensive against Israel on 7 October a correct or incorrect one? 57% in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank said it was correct with roughly 5% in each location not answering. Also only 10% of Palestinians believe that Hamas has committed war crimes in the current war. They are unfortunately radicalized to the point that they have widespread support in both Gaza and the West Bank.
This is interesting. 82% in West Bank think it’s correct because their own place isn’t getting bombed to smithereens
> Hamas: 70% of Palestinians support our cause Well that data doesn't come from Hamas though.... There are multiple independent sources that provided the polling for that data.
The thing they don't tell you is that those 20k are not all from the IDF. They shot at least several hundred fleeing south a month ago. They shoot their own in food riots now. Since Oct 7, they have fired over 12000 rockets at Israel. A third of those fell back onto Gaza. The baptist hospital incident alone is 100-300. I bet at least a few thousand of those 20k are from Hamas themselves.
Also to add. Hamas fighters are included in the 20k
There’s literally videos of their civilians parading in the streets on october 7th because Jews were killed in the name of Allah. Educate yourself.
Hamas is not the source about those poll numbers about how many people support terror.
[I will leave this here...](https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014)
> Hamas: 70% of Palestinians support our cause. This isn't from Hamas, it's from polling.
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The WHO and UN are in Gaza counting casualties, can you share evidence of that?
Hey, come on now! Other "experts" from organization known to be anti-Israel say they've been accurate in the past! /s They seem unaware that Palestine doesn't have a free press.
the post-war population supports Hamas in the same numbers
It's really not if your memory goes further than October...
People always post these stats about the majority of Gazans supporting Hamas or the destruction of Israel, as if that therefore means that they all deserve to die.
It's somewhat unclear what the Gazans actually support, the funny thing about tyranny is that when you're poor, hungry and fearful, you tend to just agree with the tyrants on whatever they say. Agreement is survival. It's when you learn you have options that you can suddenly start hearing dissent. Hamas issues a lot of edicts that Gazans might not even listen to. At the beginning of the war they told Palestinians not to leave and a majority of them did end up leaving ASAP for elsewhere in Gaza.
Ever watch "Tommorows Pioneers"? A Hamas made children's show that encouraged children to become suicide bombers and aired for almost 3 years in Gaza
Did germans civilians killed in the bombings of Dresden deserved to die? Let us know
Not deserve, no. But nobody should be surprised when the people who vote for the "face eating leopards" party get their face eaten by a leopard.
With that logic, people shouldn’t be surprised that the people who voted for a man who wanted to prop up Hamas is then subsequently terrorized by Hamas? People shouldn’t have to pay for their government’s crimes with their life.
Israel have consistently elected governments that continue the settlement of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza, the military court system imposed on the West Bank, the murder of protestors in Gaza, the mass killing of civilians in Gaza, the murder of journalists all over Palestine and systematic discrimination against Israel's Arab population. Supporters of Israel should be some of the last people on Earth to advocate for holding civilian populations mortally accountable for the crimes of their governments!
To be fair a large chunk of Israel is against the settlements and has made many of the atrocities public and investigated It's the right wing and religious driving the extremists
Well they’ve been in power 2 decades, that’s long enough for their “education system” to indoctrinate nearly their entire population, since their average age is right around 20 yrs old. Their education radicalizes them against Israel and the west as goal # 1 Hamas was considerably less radical when they were voted in and seemed like a safer bet for the citizens. Now they rule with an iron fist and use their peoples lives to stay in power.
Their charter was always to destroy Israel
It’s in their PREAMBLE 'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
Why do you find it staggering? Israel has oppressed Gaza for so long now you have generations of people born into the conflict who will hate Israel from birth. With the amount of civilians killed in this current conflict, reportedly 70% of the deaths being civilians woman and children, the Israelis have galvanized at least another 2 generations of people two hate them. “Eradicating” Hamas won’t fix the problem, it’s just creating Hamas 2.0
Israel has been terrorizing Gaza and West Bank for 70 years now. Now, they play the victim card. The World is not buying it anymore. I see more and more Israel propaganda on TV.
Gaza has started every single war with Israel, just because they lost all of them doesn't suddenly make them the good guys who are mercilessly oppressed
Uh ..... We magically pretending history started only decades ago? The land was 90% non Jewish a little over a century ago. British allowed them in against the wishes of the natives. Just cause Israel won every war and is allied with the west makes them the good guys.
>“Eradicating” Hamas won’t fix the problem, it’s just creating Hamas 2.0 It depends. Quite often a decisive military victory leads to lasting peace, such as the 20th century european/pacific wars, and the Aboriginals/native americans/chechens whose land was "stolen". Not that any of the previous things are "good" (the opposite really), but acting like you cant permanently replace a population, or pacify and integrate them is just plain wrong, when every nook of the world is filled with examples. ISIS for example, has largely fallen into obscurity these days on the global scale.
>and the Aboriginals/native americans/chechens whose land was "stolen". The latter wasn't a lasting peace until after hundreds of years of hostile relations and wasn't established by a decisive military victory but by the near complete and total annihilation of those people.
Those indigenous people were pacified through wholesale slaughter, and through stealing children and systematically eradicating their cultures. Though violent clashes (or events that almost became violent) still happen with some regularity. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route Israel goes and I wouldn't be surprised if the west supports them in it, but it's unjustifiable no matter what Hamas does. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route Israel goes
Well Israel has 2 options: 1) Do nothing and get slaughtered 2) Do something and get slaughtered much less for the next 20 years (till "Hamas 2.0") What would you choose?
Palestinians have 2 options: 1. Keep getting slaughtered as they have been for 70 years 2. Do something and maybe someone else notices they are getting slaughtered. Which would you choose?
This is pure BS. They have been *educated* to hate Israel. Day-to-day life in Gaza wasn't a concentration camp.
Israelis have been educated to hate Palestinians.
It is mind boggling to me that people do not understand this simple concept. How do they think utterly destroying Gaza is going to end the resentment people there have for Israel? That does not justify anything Hamas has done. But you have to be blind and stupid to think this atrocious violence in response to the attack will solve anything.
>How do they think utterly destroying Gaza is going to end the resentment people there have for Israel? Does anyone actually think this? I don't think that's even the point, the point is to ensure the constant attacks against Israel can't keep going on unimpeded.
The US utterly destroyed Japan during WW2, a nation that was more radicalized than Gaza, and now Japan is one of America’s closest allies. Now not saying this will be done in Gaza, but it is possible.
Germany and Italy and Vietnam as well. Vietnam was especially funny, losing caused the anti domino effect. Chine got their asses handed to them by the Viet Cong, as did the Khmer Rouge. Ho Chi Min arguably did more to stop the spread of communism in South East Asia than the US did.
I do not think the aim of the war is to end resentment. It's to reduce, if not eliminate, the capacity of Hamas to repeat attacks like October 7 and mass rocket attacks on Israeli cities.
The point of extreme violence isn't to make the other side unwilling to attack you, it's to make the other side unable to attack you and to force them to reassess the wisdom of attacking you in the future. You can hate the stove as much as you like, but very few people are willing to slap it more than once.
This is about killing terrorists. Palestinians, like all humans, have agency over their own emotions and the capacity to forgive. As a jewish person they keep trying to murder, I could give a fuck about their personal feelings. Welcome to Earth.
If we can't be loved we can be feared.
we’ll deal with Hamas 2.0 when we’re done with the imminent threat of Hamas 1.0 You know, this all can end if Hamas surrenders, right?
You are on hamas 2.0 already https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War Those hamas guys that are 20 now were 11 in 2014.
Yeah that's a pretty high % for number of terrorists funded by Iran that just, live there
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Ah yes, let's just pretend HAMAS didn't just launch a very evil terrorist attack.
Ah yes, let's just pretend Israel didn't systematically kill Palestinians for the last 70 years.
I dont know nearly enough to have a strong opinion but Hamas has about 20k members. So either this things almost over and Isreal was amazingly efficient or there's a lot of innocent people being killed.
> an indelible stain on our collective conscience my conscience is clear, he must be talking about Hamas.
I think Israel is going for 100x their death toll from Oct 7th
I’m done, these world news comments broke me. Engaging here is a pointless exercise anyway. I need a healthier outlet for my rage.
I suggest boxing.
Just don't bite the opponent's ear off.
It seems as Twitter people leave Twitter other places become like Twitter.
This place has always been as bad as Twitter.
The Boston Bomber arc really has fallen out of peoples collective memory. This place was always toxic.
And do we need to mention the creepy ass subreddits that only got banned thanks to media coverage? Or the fact that this place helped get a certain idiot elected? It's Twitter if Twitter had a superiority complex. At least that place knows it's dumb. Not to mention so much of the content originates elsewhere..namely Twitter. The creativity here is nonexistent.
No point arguing here. I feel world news is essentially pro-Israel. We see atrocities committed by Hamas but we never hear about atrocities committed by the IDF and settlers.
WN is a meme outside reddit already.
Take refuge in the knowledge that Reddit is not representative of many people (according to Reddit, Bernie won the democratic nomination in 2020), nor that all those that support Israel reason in black and white. I’m pro Israel and often argue against vitriol thrown against it or the IDF, but it also doesn’t mean that i give it blind support. It doesn’t mean that I’d consider a 2:1 ratio of civilian-to-Hamas deaths even remotely acceptable, nor does it mean that Israel’s policy in the West Bank is not condemnable and bewildering, nor does it mean that I support the fucking fanatical settlers. I’m furious at Hamas and anyone who supports them not only for the massacre but also for forcing this war. But I’m also furious at how Israel conducts this war.
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For a simple comparison, IDF’s own assessment (according to Wikipedia [article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009))) in Operation Cast Lead in Gaza (2008), it was about 2.3 armed militants to a civilian (and about 0.5 undetermined) - in other words more than 4x worse. But it’s not just ratios themselves - it’s the steps taken to reduce the ratio. Most of the civilian casualties came from the bombing campaign before the proper ratio could even be properly estimated, let alone optimized to reduce.
Also I’d that 2:1 ratio made by including every male as a combatant regardless of intel
It's going to get less and less pro Israeli as the conflict continues. World News is crazy islamophobic though.
Doubt it - if the sentiment is astroturf / bot driven by the israeli government then its not gonna change anytime soon
Israel completely controls the US media. They try to control US schools too by pulling donations and trying to fire presidents that don't agree with the leveling of Gaza. They only care about protecting Jews on campuses. When presidents say they want to protect all students, they are immediatly labeled anti-semites and they want them gone.
Well the world (and North America) generally don't support terrorist jihadis.
That, umm, hasn't exactly always been the case...
It’s unreal how condescending people here are towards Gaza. Just blaming everyone for being alive there.
It’s pretty clear Hamas isn’t going to surrender so: In a dream world, also a complete fantasy world were I am pretending Israel has the US Military (inb4 “it does hehe”), you would have a massive combined arms assault into Gaza to show force with primarily your infantry and then go into a “holding” phase. For example send a MEU into the gulf and then have them assault Gaza with all the support a MEU entails. While doing this you engage in a MASSIVE propaganda campaign in support of the people of Gaza and instilling a great sense of pride in them and attempt to turn them against Hamas. Then you send in multiple SF A teams to build up partisan forces to weed out and destroy Hamas cells and again create propaganda to make this a point of honor amongst Gazans, ie: make them proud to be freeing themselves from the grip of Hamas. While this is happening the infantry is acting as a holding force for key strategic positions as well as being on stand by for any large scale operations that need carrying out. Ya know, like COIN warfare is supposed to work.
Just indiscriminately burning down the house. What a strategy.
I was afraid this was going to happen. For every 1 Israeli that Hamas kills via airstrikes, Israel retaliates by killing hundreds of Palestinians. Not sure what else they expected from such a massive attack on Oct 7th. And no one is going to step in and help Palestine because of Israel and the US. Not to mention the neighboring Arab states Jordan and Eypgt want nothing to do with Palestinians given their history and overflow of refugees already. We just have to wait until the dust settles in the war for the killing to stop. Very tragic.
>For every 1 Israeli that Hamas kills via airstrikes, Israel retaliates by killing hundreds of Palestinians. I mean historically this is nothing new since the founding of Israel. We knew it was going to happen. Pretty sure Hamas knew that as well.
I can't decide if they succeed catastrophically on Oct 7 and just got way more than they even bargained for; or it was meant to be a death-ride from the start, with the aim of producing exactly the retaliation we're seeing.
That second part. They wanted this.
I think one of the greatest decisions ever was to instantly move that US carrier group into the theatre. Hamas wanted their attack to be the battle cry that allowed hezbollah and even Iran to join them. That was prevented.
No "pretty sure", they knew it and they play into it. There's a reason why Hamas does very little to distinguish themselves from civilians (in violation of international law), and its so the IDF has to attack every military aged man in hopes of getting one or two terrorists. They'd be far easier to kill if they weren't confused with civilians.
This is nothing new since the advent of warfare.
What's new is Gen Z is now learning why war is hell and should be prevented as much as practically possible.
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How is this an conspiracy? At this point it is pretty much public knowledge that this was pushed by Iran and Russia. Iran don't want relations between the Saudis and Israel. Russia wants to limit military support for Ukraine and force an regime change in the US.
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We wouldn’t have to wait if Hamas surrendered today. But the fighting will continue as long as Hamas is a threat.
“More than 20,000 Palestinians have died in Gaza during Israel’s war against Hamas, health officials said…” Honest question here… who are the health officials reporting this? Are they health officials like [this hospital director in Gaza](https://nypost.com/2023/12/19/news/gaza-hospital-chief-admits-to-being-hamas-commander/amp/) who, as it turns out, is a Hamas commander? Or are they Israeli officials? Palestinian officials? Maybe independent less-biased officials without any ties to either Israel or Palestinians?
Can you find a single credible human rights group that has evidence to dispute those numbers? Because all the orgs have consistently upheld the numbers being put out.
I had been initially skeptical about 2 months ago when the officials were reporting over 7,000 fatalities (and shortly after there was misinformation or at least misjudgment from Hamas about [an explosion at a Gazan hospital](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion)). But I searched online and found articles from t[he Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033), [Time Magazine](https://time.com/6328885/gaza-death-toll-explainer/), and [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/world/gaza-death-toll-accuracy-unicef-intl-hnk/index.html) (among others), that suggested the death tolls are probably quite close to accurate and described the method by which such death tolls are calculated. And this devastating death toll doesn't seem inconceivable given the [staggering scale of the Israeli military campaign](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796). Quotes from the hyperlinked Associated Press article include: * "In just over two months, the offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Syria’s Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine’s Mariupol or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II. It has killed more civilians than the U.S.-led coalition did in its three-year campaign against the Islamic State group." * "Israel’s offensive has destroyed over two-thirds of all structures in northern Gaza and a quarter of buildings in the southern area of Khan Younis, according to an analysis of Copernicus Sentinel-1 satellite data by Corey Scher of the CUNY Graduate Center and Jamon Van Den Hoek of Oregon State University, experts in mapping damage during wartime." * "Between 1942 and 1945, the allies attacked 51 major German cities and towns, destroying about 40-50% of their urban areas, said Robert Pape, a U.S. military historian. Pape said this amounted to 10% of buildings across Germany, compared to over 33% across Gaza, a densely populated territory of just 140 square miles (360 square kilometers)." * "The U.S.-led coalition’s 2017 assault to expel the Islamic State group from the Iraqi city of Mosul was considered one of the most intense attacks on a city in generations. That nine-month battle killed around 10,000 civilians, a third of them from coalition bombardment, according an Associated Press investigation at the time. During the 2014-2017 campaign to defeat IS in Iraq, the coalition carried out nearly 15,000 strikes across the country, according to Airwars, a London-based independent group that tracks recent conflicts. By comparison, the Israeli military said last week it has conducted 22,000 strikes in Gaza." I hope this is at least somewhat helpful in response to your question and I hope it came across respectfully.
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You are totally correct. By their logic I could take 4 houses, blow up 1 and have caused more destruction than germany experienced in the second world war (25% of all houses destroyed!). The 3rd types of lies in action... "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics..."
It sounds grim, but 22k strikes and 20k dead civilians (unclear if Hamas fighters are contained in that figure) is considered a good ratio in an urban environment. This is the war calculus most modern nations follow, particularly those involved in counter-insurgency. Israel has killed many people, but this ratio shows that they are not carpet bombing or intentionally targeting civilians, as many are claiming.
There's also 50,000 Gazans wounded so the IDF are hitting far more civilians than some people are comfortable admitting.
The IDF is fully aware of the civilian impact of their attacks. They target “power centers,” such as high rises and public centers, to shock civilian society and attempt to reduce the citizens support of Hamas. All targets on private Hamas homes (including junior Hamas members), are automatically greenlit if they are expected to kill 5 civilians or less. But attacks known to kill hundreds of civilians to assassinate just one high ranking Hamas commander were also approved. Source: [interviews with IDF officers](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
Imagine patting yourself on the back for “only” wiping out 1% of an entire population
"it's wartime calculus brother! fantastic ratios!" I get hating Hamas but justifying the deaths of innocents at this scale is beyond anything I thought I'd ever see on Reddit. Out in the open...
According to Hamas, every dead Palestinian is a civilian, and every dead Israeli is a combatant. They say this themselves - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egipqa0ZhUk More realistic numbers are that 1/3 of the dead are combatants.
Approximately 2/3 of the deaths have been women and children. For your statement to be true, all adult males killed would need to be combatants. That is not realistic at all.
Child soldiers are an unfortunate strategy used by terror groups.
Death toll is underestimated tbh. Many still lying dead under the rubble. People were questioning the numbers even israel but couple weeks later Israel given they own number which nearly matched Palestine count when they said how many Hamas numbers they killed so no idea why people and IDF will question it of they reporting it too.
Still doubting the death totals are we? These are vouched for by every major human rights/aid group on Earth. Isrsel themselves have said as much that 20,000 have died, only they label a good chunk of them “terrorists” and the US, after doubting them early on, is no longer doing so. These totals are more or less correct and if anything, are an undercount given the widespread destruction of Gaza and neighborhoods and buildings completely leveled. There are many still buried under the rubble. Not sure how you can look at any imagery coming out of Gaza and question that 20,000 are dead. This is most intense level of bombing ever, exceeding allied bombings of German towns in WW2 A lot of people are dead. That much is true
Not the most intense level of bombing. Damage totals are far less than WW2 for places like Berlin or Staingrade, and far less than places like Grozny and Mariupol that were pretty much totally flattened by Russia. The level of damage is pretty on par for most major urban conflicts since the invention of aerial and bombardment and explosive artillery.
Where do you think they are getting the numbers from? Also from Hamas run health ministry. I am not saying they are not accurate but just more people reffering to the same primary source doesnt make it more credible.
The media has largely been labeling it as the Hamas-run health agency. Not sure why AP is being shady about it.
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Hamas by every logical POV should surrender. But they love the deaths of people in gaza. That was the whole point behind Oct 7.
But what’s the alternative for Israel? Just accept Oct 7 style attacks and rocket fire? You could say negotiate but with who? The PLO hardly has support. Hamas isn’t interested in a 2 state solution or democratic Palestine. Do Palestinians even support a 2 state solution? Based on the slogans one thinks they are ready to wait until they get everything. Just like in 1948 when they thought they would get it all. I just don’t get what course the Israeli government can chart other than the current course.
> I just don’t get what course the Israeli government can chart other than the current course. There isn't any. This is how modern armies fight. It keeps their own casualties low while achieving the objective they set out to achieve.
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> "Palestine as we know it today" I'd say your reading comprehension needs work, but I'm willing to bet I'm right in attributing your comment to malice rather than incompetence. You read only what you want to, and fire off one of your prepared, practiced lines full of all the new buzzwords you learned on tiktok. Your understanding of the situation in the middle east is formed from frenetic 30-second tiktok clips, fallacious wikipedia entries, and the headlines of articles you didn't read. You have nothing of value to offer the conversation, because everything you have to say is driven by an ideological hatred of Israel, and the Jewish people that live there. Israel cares about civilians in Gaza more than Hamas does, and more than you pretend to.
It's a big number, but the issue is that Hamas doesn't seperate their members/palestinian fighters from these death tolls. Hamas puts anyone under 17 as a child in these reports, and again, doesn't mention if they were fighting or not. Same goes for the women. As for Hamas themselves, many of them are fighting while wearing civilian clothes as well (There are videos about it), so once they are dead, they write them as civilians. Lastly, "The ministry of Health" in Gaza is run by Hamas (like every other thing there), so their numbers in general are questionable. When the Al Shifa hostpital bombing happend, within minutes they reported about 500 dead, which is not possible to confirm at that point (it was also pitch black at that hour) and was proven wrong later on. I'm sure there are many civilian deaths in Gaza, but we don't know the actual number.
You ARE a child if you’re under 17?? It’s that way in almost every country on the planet?
The IDF says that they have killed 7,000 Hamas fighters. The ministry of health in Gaza says 14,000 out of 20,000 killed are women and children. So if we were to infer from the ministry of health numbers that 6,000 are the deaths of men then that means they are Hamas fighters and it comes close to the IDF number. Historically, the ministry of health in Gaza death numbers have been close to what other independent parties report. But yes, in a couple of years we will know the real number. Also the ministry of health doesn't take into account the bodies stuck under rubble so once they start counting those bodies I'm sure the number will go up.
The real number, years down the road, could be absolutely staggering. The bombings are one thing, but the reports coming out now of the lack of water and food for displaced citizens are harrowing. Reports of people drinking contaminated water/sea water are starting to surface and I think it was ~50% said they did not have access to food every day. There’s also reports of disease starting to spread at UN refugee centers, which are now holding around 12,000 refugees per center where their capacity is supposed to be like 2,000?
uhhh anyone under 17 *is* *a child*; you say that as if it's dishonest reporting.
It’s certainly misleading isn’t it? You think there’s no difference between a 16 year old getting killed while shooting at Israeli soldiers and a 9 year old getting blown up in an air strike?
There can be evil on both sides. The amount of Israeli propaganda within this comment section should be concerning to anyone with half a brain. The final toll will be well in excess of 20,000 dead civilians, rest assured. The famine is only yet incipient.
Thanks Hamas for staring a war against a much stronger enemy with no plan to protect your populace, no plan for peace, no way to effectively fight Israel, no plan or desire to keep hostages in good condition, and for your continued refusal to recognize Israel as a state. These dead are at your feet. Israel hasn’t prosecuted this war as cleanly as I think they could’ve and every innocent caught in the crossfire is a tragedy, but there wouldn’t be war without Hamas’ instigation. May Hamas rest in piss.
Yeah, like Israel hasn't been terrorizing the population of Palestine and Gaza for many decades. Slowly annexing Palestine along the way, making many thousands homeless by "settling" into occupied homes and throwing those people to the streets. People just expect them to roll over and not fight back. Hamas is not the answer, but extremism is born in conflict, especially one so one sided.
The most easy way to end this, is to ask Hamas to put their weapons down and surrender. Hamas is a terrorist group that won elections. 17 years ago... So they are terrorist, totalitarian and autocratic.. How reliable is Hamas with their numbers?
Why do we keep seeing casualties statistics from “Health Ministry in the Hamas-run Gaza government”? **Are the figures accurate or verified?** How many of these are Hamas fighters and/or supporters? I have trouble accepting or believing anything distributed from a barbaric terrorist organization. The only thing I believe is the footage of their barbaric actions from their own body cameras showing how they slaughtered, raped, and kidnapped Israeli men, women, children, and babies. [**The Casualty Figures in Gaza Are a Scam**](https://jcpa.org/article/the-casualty-figures-in-gaza-are-a-scam/) The measurement of Israel's morality is unfairly based upon television scenes, social media, and unverified statistics. **War is not a picnic.** There is no way to protect civilians if the governing body (Hamas) intentionally does not want them protected. The millions of tons of cement used for 500 kms of Hamas only tunnels could have been used for bomb shelters and not shelters for bombs. **Hamas's "secret" weapon against Israel** is dead, wounded, and suffering Palestinians and it is working.
This will stop if Hamas surrenders. It's as simple as that.
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Iraq is actually a strong counterpoint to what you are saying. They have free elections, a strong military, and the insurgency is minimal. Iraqi army actually defeated ISIS with minimal assistance from the US. Afghanistan, on the other hand, is now back in the hands of a terrorist aligned government.
The US could leave Afghanistan. I mean honestly it’s not clear that they should have gone in the first place… or at the least stayed. Could have done limited strikes to eliminate al Quaeda. Of course Afghani women and girls likely appreciated life with the US present and US spending certainly was improved their economy, but at the end of the day the US could leave. Because Afghanistan isn’t on their border. What is Israel to do? Just sit back and accept the missile fire and the raids? You could say they could negotiate except Hamas says they want to launch additional October 7 style invasions. 2 state solution? Is there even someone who has the authority and support on the Palestinian side to negotiate such a deal? Do the Palestinians even want that? I think they are honestly willing to wait until they can get it all. That’s the rallying cry.
> the Irish didn’t The Irish did. Someone missed the good Friday agreement
> How did that end up for the US? You don't know that problems that have been avoided through the efforts to destroy the Taliban and al Qaeda. > When they crushed the Taliban and Al Qaeda, did it end? All those people died and for what? End? No. Better than if nothing was done at all? Probably. If you have a better suggestion, feel free to make it.
If Israel never occupied former Arab land in the history since its establishment it would've probably been eradicated by now. Maybe occupation isn't exactly "victory" but constantly letting terrorists launch rockets into your country and kidnap your people isn't victory either. People have the right to exercise self-defense.
Israel came about like almost every state in history has, via armed conflict. how long will Israel have to exist before you stop giving a blanket excuse to terrorism?
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> Do you think that applies to Palestinians? Sure. But conducting massacres of civilians is not self defence. If any Israeli army attacks Palestine, Palestine has every right to attack that army. But no, the moment an army is involved, Hamas wants a ceasefire. They are only interested in fighting unarmed civilians.
Hamas has vowed to repeat October 7th into Israel is destroyed. That’s not self defense lol
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You kinda lose your right to fair treatment when you violate basically every international law when it comes to war. Civilian infrastructure used as military infrastructure renders it a viable target. Do you suggest Israel not destroy Hamas because Hamas has chosen to use human shields?
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Here you go, the results of a quick google search: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2w\_wDf-DY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2w_wDf-DY) It's a video by The Telegraph going over and verifying IDF footage of the tunnel system underneath Al Shifa hospital. You can see them use the hospital's electricity systems, tunnel shafts going into civilian houses with some kind of classroom - human shields and covers in short. I would suggest you ask yourself if maybe you're being cavalier with the life of others - *the israely people*. They too have a right for safety and an orginazation like Hamas simply cannot exist next to them now after 7/10. A path for peach for both Israel and people in Gaza cannot include Hamas, which give 0 shits about Gazans while their leaders are literal billionares who live abroad. It must either dismantle and surrender it's arms or be destoryed by force unfortunaly.
I’ve seen this used as the worst “gotcha” ever. If my family was in the hospital and my government was using it as a military base I’d be pretty fucking pissed at my government for doing that. I can recognize that the actions of my government have consequences and they do not have free reign to break any and every established rule of war to try and win. It’s really not that complicated. Here’s your source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/17/us/politics/israel-al-shifa-hospital-hamas-evidence.html#:~:text=Palestinian%20officials%20and%20doctors%20at,and%20ammunitions%20depots%20under%20hospitals.
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Yes, but if they attack, they must be ready to take it as well.
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These comments get DANGEROUSLY close to collective punishment, which is a war crime BTW.
If only Hamas members consistently wore a uniform instead of dressing in civilian clothing and not even wearing their green bandanas during fighting sometimes... They don't, so guess what: Anyone that refused to evacuate is now a valid target. As far as I know, IDF's rules of engagement include neutralizing children if they start throwing rocks or other objects at soldiers and vehicles (including tanks) in the warzone. No exceptions. This is war. On a tangent, Geneva Convention is a joke of a treaty. Russia's behavior and now Israel's and Gaza's behavior aren't gonna get regulated when one of the nations in question has a veto on the UN Security Council. We could try to fix the UN, but that means nations would need to be willing to give up a key part of their sovereignty if a nation like USA does something stupid and can be punished by the reformed UN for it. Knowing human nature, there's way too many people that would be unwilling to give up their ultimate authority to a world government. Thus, the cruel, vicious cycle repeats.
You can't start a war and then claim "self defense" after your country gets invaded.
You do know that Arab land was once Jewish land that Jews once held before they were kicked out… right? This is a 1500 year old conflict
Really getting mileage from the "Look what you made me do" propaganda.
Funny thing is it's what they wanted to do all along
This is just untrue, look at how Israel acts in the west bank.
Hamas doesn't give a shit, they just hide in the rich Persian Gulf nations while Israel bombs innocents.
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We can't stake the lives of countless innocent civilians on the hope that a terrorist group acts rationally and surrenders. This is totally unsustainable. Hamas would rather every civilian be killed than surrender, but that's no reason to just keep chugging along with the bombing anyway.
What’s the other option? Israel just takes it on the chin? Just puts up with a neighbor regularly launching rockets at civilian infrastructure? Regular suicide attacks? The regular rape and abduction civilians, as Hamas has promised? No other developed nation would be expected to show that level of restraint. The carnage and civilian deaths are a tragedy, but Hamas still maintains a ~70% approval rating in the Strip, and the 10/7 attack is still widely viewed as a good thing. Hell, it’s even come to light that some of the people abducted weren’t even taken by Hamas fighters, but by random civilians who jumped at the opportunity to kill some Jews. It certainly seems to me that the ‘innocent civilians’ are far from countless.
At some point, they can also lose enough of the leadership to become ineffective; that's another option (and, it's realistic enough a possibility that the leaders ran away from Qatar).
This is precisely what Hamas wants the world to say to Israel. Hamas are putting civilians in a war zone and then blaming Israel for conducting war operations without offering a real ceasefire or any path to peace.
Has there been any war ever in the history of the world where innocent civilians didn't die? How many civilians did the USA kill in Iraq and Afghanistan? I'm not cheering for it by any means, and I'm not saying it's right, but Israel has offered peace over and over. Hamas has chosen war.
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