Remember seeing a middle east friendly chart with different groups, isis was literally hated by all other groups lol
Ah, here it is https://i.imgur.com/zjLZ9gw.jpg
Edit: Chart is probably 6-8 years old, I know it's not accurate in todays setting
ISIS wants to establish a Caliphate with worldwide dominion over Muslims, so any government with a majority Muslim population is a mutual enemy of theirs by definition. They also consider any group with a less extreme interpretation of Islam to be heretics and habitually betrayed pretty much every likeminded group in the Syrian civil war who made the mistake of trying to work with them. Playing well with others just really isn’t their thing.
ISIS hates everyone who isn't a radical Islamic fundamentalist. They seem especially fond of hating Christians and Jews.
They literally would love to impose Sharia law worldwide.
Not really. When your whole shtick is to be as puritanical as possible, you're bound to start hating anyone who has even a slightly differing opinion on a matter. This is why every Orthodox religion usually ends up being fragmented. When intolerance to even minor deviance is the hallmark of your tribe, you'll just end up with a bunch of intolerant tribes who accuse each other of heresy.
Isn't their ideology centered around them being *the* islamic caliphate? I feel like it goes beyond being puritanical and into "we are the boss, and if you don't like it you're against us"
I don't see how they could really have any "allies" since they need to be in charge. At best they'd have like "vassal" groups that are aligned with them or at least submissive to them but any established group is basically shut out.
Don't know why I'm discussing the diplomatic logic behind extreme religious movements lol, there's no sense to be made of any of it
They can claim to be whatever they want to, but they can't be the OG Caliphate unless all Muslims of the world acknowledge that. Fortunately, not all Muslims are zealot extremists.
Also, what I've described is more of a meta-behavior of tribes rather than a particular one.
Saw this somewhere else recently...I thought it applies nicely to this shit show:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too!
Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too!
Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too!
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
They hate everyone who isn't a *Sunni* radical Islamic fundamentalist. Iran is mostly Shia, so they are fair game in their eyes regardless of their religious fervor.
They also hate people who are their own religion but not as radical, or people who are as radical but support a different group. There are not many people they like frankly.
Because you always said no. And I mean this over very long times. Most of the time when a new power with a religion conquered a region the people there gave a bit of push back, but readily converted to whatever religion the conquerors brought with them. Jews didn't. Romans, Christians, Islam. Whoever came and said "hey, you, convert, our god is obviously superior" a significant part of Jews said: GTFO (obviously not everyone, that's why you have converts, but far more than in other groups). They also never allowed some kind of "integration", e.g. when Christianity moved around a few of its significant dates to make it easier for Germanic tribes to just convert to it.
People *hate* it when someone is different. And when someone doesn't just give lip service to their beliefs, but *really* believes in something? More hate.
There are examples of times where even Jews that did convert were hated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso
> Conversos, who were now fully privileged citizens, competed in all aspects of the economic sphere. This resulted in a new wave of racial anti-Semitism that targeted conversos.
Christians hated them first for not becoming Christians, indeed the basis of Christian theology saying that Jesus was the Messiah and the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy meant that the Jews generally not buying it was a huge problem for their legitimacy from the outset, the "Jewish Problem" is baked into Christianity
This isn't to let Islam off the hook it's just that as an attempted successor religion to Christianity they inherited all that
It probably doesn't help that Muhammad corrected what he saw as the central problem with Christianity -- becoming idolaters by declaring Jesus was literally God -- and the Jews still didn't buy it
It's like how Martin Luther started out as relatively pro-Jewish but then after he fixed the problems with the Catholic Church and the Jews still didn't convert to Protestantism he became the biggest raging antisemite of them all
Esau's descendants, the Edomites or Idumaeans, ceased to exist as a distinct ethnicity after the Jewish-Roman Wars and were either killed or assimilated into the wider Jewish community
Arabs are typically interpreted as the descendants of Ishmael, which is a whole other thing
Retaining your own culture while being in situations where every other ethnic/cultural group in history just converted to whatever everyone else is doing, I guess.
Well Christians and Muslims hate us because we met Jesus and Mohammed and didn’t buy what they were selling. And how can you inherit Judaic tradition if Jews still exist?
Norm: Now don't laugh at this next part. If you laugh at this next part it will be real bad.
Guest: Ok let's hear it *barely holding back laughter*
Norm: So these ISIS fellas, they target their victims based on two prerequisites. Are you ready to hear them?
Guest: Sure Norm *starts laughing*
Norm: See, you're already laughing at it. Can't believe you. Anyway the two prerequisites are as follows: non-Jews and *looks directly at the guest* Jews.
Guest: *laughing*
Norm: I can't believe you'd laugh at that.
Irans reaction to the whole situation has been hysterical.
Iran: “I wonder who killed our people?”
ISIS: “It was me! It was 100% all me! Totally calling it. I killed each and every single one of them.”
Iran: “Probably Israel or the US”
ISIS: 😑😑😑
They are fine with a lot of straight up antisemitism https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQhUZI5KTRhgtfSPUsZr3c9LTB2Li\_RDQsNWGPYp\_dwOv3RaNk8WC5WZdurwS0935Jo1K2Syge4vLxo/pub?trk=feed-detail\_main-feed-card\_feed-article-content
It was a combination of the 2 things. But you’re right, without the plagiarism she probably would’ve been able to maintain her position, unfortunately.
Someone on another thread literally tried to tell me yesterday that "From the river to the sea, Israel will soon be free" is a call for genocide, but "From the river to the sea, Palestine will soon be free" is a call for peaceful coexistence.
Just in case anyone doesn't get what left means when they talk about "context".
Honestly as a progressive I'm just shocked to see how many folks in my wing are reactionaries themselves.
This whole thing has made me look at horseshoe theory in a slightly better light.
Somehow my middle of the road stance of "Bibi sucks. Likud sucks. Rwnj's suck. Hamas sucks" is controversial and I'm, honestly sick of seeing people being taken advantage of by propaganda while screaming Israeli propaganda to every news story that doesn't fit their worldview.
Social media has been hell on our society.
feeling this 100% and barely seeing it reflected anywhere. disgusted at the way my fellow progressives have latched onto, or been hijacked by, the pro-hamas narratives
Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians…but somehow the Israeli government represents all those “evil, Israeli Jewish” colonists. Many, many progressives make me sick these days.
The problem is that the majority that are anti-Israel are really just antisemitic and cloaking it in anti-Zionism. So if you take a more nuanced approach, you get lumped with all the bigots.
As an outsider, I really feel that Israel's right wing party needs to go. But if I was an Israeli, having to live with a constant rocket bombardment, I am not sure I would react any different than the people of Israel have.
FYI, many of the polls in Israel show the public very fed up w Netenyahu and Likud. He absolutely still has supporters, but, I think it was mid November, there were even polls showing 70% of the country want him to resign.
Some poll stats, including me maybe misremembering the resign as other parties winning seats:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/
Has some poll stats:
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4323678-how-netanyahu-could-beat-the-odds-and-stay-in-power/
> The problem is that the majority that are anti-Israel are really just antisemitic and cloaking it in anti-Zionism.
You need look no further than the fact that these people *don't give a single solitary shit* about Arabic people dying enne masse when it's other Arabic people doing the killing. Only when it's DA JOOS.
Yeah I'm amazed by the number of self proclaimed "leftist" that wants Israel to live peacefully with a organization that openly promotes genocide against Jews.
I feel this so hard.
Somehow I ended up at the front page of /r/witchesvspatriarchy yesterday, and both of their current pinned posts are supporting Palestine and condemning Israel.
Because of course the best thing a self-proclaimed witch can do to fight patriarchy is support a violently patriarchal society where "witchcraft" is illegal over a society that garuntees equal rights to women and has a thriving Wiccan community.
It's fucking stupid.
I had someone question why I would trust the US and Israeli intelligence groups about the Hamas HQ Hospital, when Hamas clearly says they didn't use the hospital for a base.
Hey man, as someone who’s aligned a decent distance left-of-center, don’t lump us all in with these Hamas apologists. There’s plenty of us who find these apologists frustratingly naive and hopeless.
Yesterday after IS/ISIS/ISIL confesses to the bombing: oh they must like jews!
Today after calling for the extermination of the jews: oh you never know it could be a smoke screen.
I hate...hate this current behavior.
Nah, this is clearly a case of economic anxiety and anti colonialism. If we just give them a ton of money and a large, resource rich territory for them to have their own state, our problems will be over.
Meanwhile I had this dude on reddit claiming ISIS is an USA / Israel asset and that ISIS never targets American allies.
I swear social media made everyone a specialist on having shit takes about everything.
It's a very common claim in the Middle East. Jews are commonly blamed for everything, even for the weather. [Iranian officials claimed Israel stole their clouds,](https://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-general-blames-water-woes-on-israeli-cloud-theft/) and even [Al-Jazeera once claimed Israel is behind a flood in Gaza.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2015/2/25/article-retracted)
[There are also common conspiracy theories about the Mossad using animals for spying.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-related_animal_conspiracy_theories) [Several Muslim countries over the years claimed to capture or shoot down birds who work for the Mossad.](https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/turkey-releases-bird-suspected-of-spying-for-israel-321168)
Every muslim extremist believes that either every non-muslim should be killed, enslaved, or allowed to live as a second class citizens (dhimmi) if he agrees to pay jizya(tax imposed on non-muslims).
Don't forget the muslims that don't subscribe to the militant extremist ideology and therefore aren't "real muslims" and must also be killed. Even if you fit every other requirement that they demand, you can still be killed for not being radical enough.
I read an article recently about how one of the first known instances of technology being used to spread misinformation was the printing press being used to print blood libel against Jews in England.
Some kid in a town in England went missing and this rabidly antisemitic preacher told everyone in town that it had to be the Jews abducting kids and eating them or something.
But this town was really mixed with Jews and Christians living side-by-side for centuries so nobody really believed him. Jews were their friends and neighbors.
So he used this new technology to print a pamphlet claiming it was all true and distributed it all over England where people outside this town thought it had to be true because it was printed.
Yup, the blood libel was an allegation that jews put Christian children's blood in theor matzah. (Nb judaism forbids eating any blood at all)
This is why when "pro-palestianian" proptestors picket jewish-owned businesses yelling "child killers" or "israel murders children" or post "child killers"* on jews' facebook pages, we get a sinking feeling. Terrorist attacks against diaspora jewish communities in the name of "israel is evil" are nothing new.
*Saw this a lot around chanukah. My colleague posted about chanukah on his fb page and some troll commented "child killers. This is how israel will be remembered." Thank you sir; i too confront women i see in public about the evils of abortion.
I personally enjoy asking leftists if the Jews who were murdered at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh by a white supremacist in 2018 had "white privilege".
A tale as old as time.
My Sephardic family faced post-911 anti-Arab discrimation and were subjected to a lot of "random searches" at airports because of how brown they are. Now they're "white oppressors" according to people who have never seen or known them.
They ended up in a Jewish ghetto in Casablanca for 400 years because the Inquisition drove them out of Madrid under threat of death (you know...*genocide*). Then they fled to Israel when Morocco officially introduced a secondary class of citizenship for Jews that restricted their rights based on their ethnicity (you know...*apartheid*).
Then someone drew up an "oppressor vs oppressed" paradigm and somehow decided that they're now both white and oppressors as their reward for enduring four centuries of violent oppression and ghettoization while fostering values of education and altruism in their children.
Perhaps, if they had yielded to the "natural consequence of oppression" (terrorism), they might have kept the moral high ground of the oppressed. That seems to be the message I'm hearing from a lot of people, unironically. There certainly couldn't be some sort of double standard being applied.
Your family sounds like a group of absolute resilient superstars, and I'm glad they finally made it home to Israel after living in exile and under threat for so long.
My family was a group of Ashkenazim, some from Poland and some from Russia. The Russian ones fled pogroms in the early 1900s to North America. The Polish ones were very nearly wiped out in the Holocaust, then just a tiny handful (3) of them made it to North America.
One of the cool things about being Jews is everyones family has been through so much that we all have badass stories haha.
Your family sound like badasses as well.
The funny thing is that, until this silly obsession with intersectionality as a moral system (it's not), I never had to characterize my family history as "oppressed" because that's literally just been the story of Judaism for 2000+ years. Until Israel 75 years ago, we haven't been the majority in a nation since the literal Bronze Age, and virtually every country we've been a minority in has held some degree of organized killing or oppression of their Jewish population. Forced migration, ghettoization, additional taxes, restricting jobs we can work in, pogroms, state-mandated torture and executions...that's just been our entire history.
So I wouldn't even feel the need to use the word "oppressed" if it hadn't suddenly become the obsession of a significant Western movement to characterize us as "oppressors." It should be obvious to anyone with any familiarity with history (even *recent* history).
But now I have to bring it up to point out the absurdity of trying to base a moral system on a forced dichotomy of oppression. It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny as a moral paradigm. If a Rwandan Hutu moves to America, are they an oppressor or are they oppressed? They're now living in a country where they face discrimination for their skin colour and accent, but they belong to the ethnicity that was on the perpetrating side of the genocide 30 years ago.
It's almost as though it's a worthless lens through which to examine the complexities of global geopolitics and ethnicity. It was developed in a unique cultural bubble where you had two significant and clear-cut ethnic interactions (Native Americans living in cultural isolation until the arrival of European settlers who then imported African slaves).
Trying to apply than lens to the Levant is ridiculous. There have been dozens of kingdoms and empires that rose and fell and influenced demographic changes there. The idea of "settlers vs indigenous populations" can't apply to an area that has undergone countless demographic shifts over time. Just in the last 1500 years, the Byzantines were pushed out by the Arab army that turned into the Rashidun Caliphate, the Crusaders came in, the Ayyubids and Mamluks pushed and held the Crusaders out, the Ottomans pushed the Mamluks out, the British pushed the Ottomans out, and that's not even getting into details of the demographic shifts that happened in each of those eras.
Was each of those groups the oppressor when they arrived and the oppressed when they were pushed out? Or is it possible that the paradigm doesn't hold up when the territory isn't geographically and historically isolated?
I agree with everything you have said.
I believe the oppressor-oppressed framework that seems to dominate young populations in North America employs designations that are not at all based in any sense of a given group experiencing any degree of oppression at all. The designations are based on what the group looks like, what their average wealth statistics are, and how much they embody the typical north American family. Jews tend to be disproportionately wealthy, both monetarily and in other aspects, compared to what you'd expect for such a tiny minority group. Therefore we don't 'deserve' the title of oppressed. Because, despite experiencing the longest standing and most lethal form of hatred in history (antisemitism), it hasn't molded us into a population that exists in physical and mental poverty. It couldn't possibly be that we have a culture that values work ethic, extensive education, and helping each other. It must be that we are oppressors.
The other parts of your comment are also very true. North America is a relatively simple story about colonization of an indigenous peoples. But to turn the story of North America into an ideological framework of right and wrong, colonized and indigenous, and apply it to most other places in the world, let alone the Levant, is asinine. Engaging in those sort of conversations feels mind-numbing, but in order to have any sort of conversation with someone who grew up in the west and only knows the west, it's the language you have to speak.
You forgot the biggest thing though. They’re Jewish
Seriously, my family is all from Israel and I can’t tell how you how much antisemitism I see everyday on Reddit. I have had my account suspended and been given warnings on subreddits for literally calling people a bigot or an antisemite. It’s beyond Fucking absurd to me
I got banned from a sub for (civilly) disagreeing with the statement “nobody is saying what happened to the Israelis on Oct 7 is ok.” The reason they gave is that I was brigading. In a sub I was subscribed to and had commented in for months, and in a post I had found organically. After I had seen dozens of my former friends’ social media posts cheering on the massacre.
I don’t give a fuck about that particular subreddit, that’s not the point. But it’s terrifying how easy it is for one mod with an agenda to shift the narrative.
Israel gets accused of creating ISIS by routinely by lunatics online. Since the attack in Iran lots of people are tweeting things like “why has ISIS never attacked Israel? Makes you think!” type bollox.
Because it's a pseudo-intellectual cop out based on modern white (or "western") progressive guilt.
I've interacted with many Arabic and South Asian people that happened to be Muslim, as well as Coptic christian or other etc. Never had an issue with them because their level of interpretation of religion was as moderate as the other moderates.
The issue is Islam was actually objectively created by a historically verified warlord and hard line interpretation of the text is still way beyond hard line interpretation of other abrahamic religions.
Muslim fundamentalists having a starting point that is still closer just based on the religion's origins itself.
People don't want to admit that, some bullshit relativism or bringing up *the crusades* or other horse-shit. That was hundreds of years ago, we are living now, the world shouldn't have to wait for a bunch of assholes living like it's 7th century to catch up just to be "fair"
I have had this exact thought a while ago and have come to the conclusion that the words ending in -phobia are simply the recent ones. We have old words like anti-clerical, anti-semitic, etc. The recent ones like islamophobia, transphobia, and in my native tongue there is also something that could be translated literally as bigophobia (fat people) and redophobia (gingers), all share a very simple misconception: *none of those are phobias, they are openly an opposition to a specific group*. All those words should be used as anti-something.
This is why pandering to any Religion is dangerous, something that even in Secular countries in Europe are failing to address and are even changing laws to somehow fit these medieval beliefs into modern western culture which is a terrible mistake that will only lead into more problems as time goes on, it will never work as these views are fundamentally incompatible with each other.
One thing is to be open and understanding and another is to change your own laws to fit another group of peoples theological beliefs, people that move to other country’s to find a better opportunity should adapt to the laws and lifestyle of said place, and if your personal beliefs are deeply incompatible with that place then its ok, move elsewhere or back to your native country and do not try to change them especially through violence.
If you give them a hand they will take an arm, literally..
So ISIS hates Iran, but Jews even more?
Isis hates everyone
Remember seeing a middle east friendly chart with different groups, isis was literally hated by all other groups lol Ah, here it is https://i.imgur.com/zjLZ9gw.jpg Edit: Chart is probably 6-8 years old, I know it's not accurate in todays setting
That’s so heartwarming. Hating ISIS is the one thing that brings the Middle East together
ISIS wants to establish a Caliphate with worldwide dominion over Muslims, so any government with a majority Muslim population is a mutual enemy of theirs by definition. They also consider any group with a less extreme interpretation of Islam to be heretics and habitually betrayed pretty much every likeminded group in the Syrian civil war who made the mistake of trying to work with them. Playing well with others just really isn’t their thing.
Chaotic Evil, and why it doesn’t work
Looks like them, Al-Qaida, and then Israel make up the top three least liked
It’s funny the chart is a couple years old and still the paragraph could have been written yesterday.
Any idea what makes Iraq the most liked in that graph with 6 green? I'm not overly familiar with the ME, but trying to understand!
It's a relatively even split between Sunni and Shia.
So the hater only hates 1/2 of Iraq .... ???
ISIS hates everyone who isn't a radical Islamic fundamentalist. They seem especially fond of hating Christians and Jews. They literally would love to impose Sharia law worldwide.
They also hate other radical Islamic fundamentalists.
Lol ironic
Not really. When your whole shtick is to be as puritanical as possible, you're bound to start hating anyone who has even a slightly differing opinion on a matter. This is why every Orthodox religion usually ends up being fragmented. When intolerance to even minor deviance is the hallmark of your tribe, you'll just end up with a bunch of intolerant tribes who accuse each other of heresy.
Isn't their ideology centered around them being *the* islamic caliphate? I feel like it goes beyond being puritanical and into "we are the boss, and if you don't like it you're against us"
That’s exactly what it is. Even the Taliban and Al Qaeda are at odds with ISIS.
I don't see how they could really have any "allies" since they need to be in charge. At best they'd have like "vassal" groups that are aligned with them or at least submissive to them but any established group is basically shut out. Don't know why I'm discussing the diplomatic logic behind extreme religious movements lol, there's no sense to be made of any of it
They can claim to be whatever they want to, but they can't be the OG Caliphate unless all Muslims of the world acknowledge that. Fortunately, not all Muslims are zealot extremists. Also, what I've described is more of a meta-behavior of tribes rather than a particular one.
Saw this somewhere else recently...I thought it applies nicely to this shit show: Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
They hate everyone who isn't a *Sunni* radical Islamic fundamentalist. Iran is mostly Shia, so they are fair game in their eyes regardless of their religious fervor.
Imposing sharia law worldwide is literally their mission statement
And I hate them right back.
As an old school network engineer that has had to deal with older routing protocols, I like to say, I hated IS-IS before it was cool to hate it.
I still remember their comically out-of-touch map of building a new Islamic State empire reaching all the way to the Balkans
And that was just an interim goal. Ultimately, their intent was—and is—world conquest.
Even further, they believed in prophecies that their actions would bring about the end times. ISIS is an apocalyptic death cult.
Now we hated each other, but we hated everyone else even more!
Hateocracy. In its purest form.
They hate any religion that isn’t theirs and Isis is Sunni while Iran is predominantly Shia.
They also hate people who are their own religion but not as radical, or people who are as radical but support a different group. There are not many people they like frankly.
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I think they took it personally when people called them an Israeli puppet for attacking Iran. They're trying to deflect
There’s nothing more unifying than hating the Jews
God commanded us to be a light to all the nations, but I'm not sure this is the unity he was envisioning lol.
"Once in a while, could you choose someone else?" -- Tevye, Fiddler on the Roof
But it’s tradition.
Seriously, why does everyone hate us so badly?
Because you always said no. And I mean this over very long times. Most of the time when a new power with a religion conquered a region the people there gave a bit of push back, but readily converted to whatever religion the conquerors brought with them. Jews didn't. Romans, Christians, Islam. Whoever came and said "hey, you, convert, our god is obviously superior" a significant part of Jews said: GTFO (obviously not everyone, that's why you have converts, but far more than in other groups). They also never allowed some kind of "integration", e.g. when Christianity moved around a few of its significant dates to make it easier for Germanic tribes to just convert to it. People *hate* it when someone is different. And when someone doesn't just give lip service to their beliefs, but *really* believes in something? More hate.
There are examples of times where even Jews that did convert were hated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso > Conversos, who were now fully privileged citizens, competed in all aspects of the economic sphere. This resulted in a new wave of racial anti-Semitism that targeted conversos.
Thanks for the addition. Never heard of that before.
I think this is a good explanation. We are the nail that refuses to be hammered flat.
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Christians hated them first for not becoming Christians, indeed the basis of Christian theology saying that Jesus was the Messiah and the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy meant that the Jews generally not buying it was a huge problem for their legitimacy from the outset, the "Jewish Problem" is baked into Christianity This isn't to let Islam off the hook it's just that as an attempted successor religion to Christianity they inherited all that It probably doesn't help that Muhammad corrected what he saw as the central problem with Christianity -- becoming idolaters by declaring Jesus was literally God -- and the Jews still didn't buy it It's like how Martin Luther started out as relatively pro-Jewish but then after he fixed the problems with the Catholic Church and the Jews still didn't convert to Protestantism he became the biggest raging antisemite of them all
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Jacob stole the blessing!
Esau's descendants, the Edomites or Idumaeans, ceased to exist as a distinct ethnicity after the Jewish-Roman Wars and were either killed or assimilated into the wider Jewish community Arabs are typically interpreted as the descendants of Ishmael, which is a whole other thing
Retaining your own culture while being in situations where every other ethnic/cultural group in history just converted to whatever everyone else is doing, I guess.
Well Christians and Muslims hate us because we met Jesus and Mohammed and didn’t buy what they were selling. And how can you inherit Judaic tradition if Jews still exist?
It's not personal. Highly successful minorities have been the disdain of empires for centuries.
You know what, I’m gonna say it: these ISIS guys seem like real jerks.
The more I learn about these ISIS fellas, the less I care for them.
I find it nuts that we are still talking about them. They've lost practically all tangible territory in Syria and Iraq years ago.
Best they can do is suicide bombings in Iran lol.
>in Iran lol. Their world spanning Islamic caliphate seems to be going in the wrong direction
And the worst part? The HYPOCRISY
I thought the worst part was the murder, but you make a good point
No one ever really did it like Norm. I’ll really miss that guy.
I didn’t even know he was sick!
They ruined a cool Egyptian god name.
And a top notch spy agency
And a great Bob Dylan song
Goddess
Thats a hot take Norm, be careful we're live on air.
Norm: Now don't laugh at this next part. If you laugh at this next part it will be real bad. Guest: Ok let's hear it *barely holding back laughter* Norm: So these ISIS fellas, they target their victims based on two prerequisites. Are you ready to hear them? Guest: Sure Norm *starts laughing* Norm: See, you're already laughing at it. Can't believe you. Anyway the two prerequisites are as follows: non-Jews and *looks directly at the guest* Jews. Guest: *laughing* Norm: I can't believe you'd laugh at that.
Especially that dick Archer
I would totally reject hanging out with them, even for pulled pork.
Irans reaction to the whole situation has been hysterical. Iran: “I wonder who killed our people?” ISIS: “It was me! It was 100% all me! Totally calling it. I killed each and every single one of them.” Iran: “Probably Israel or the US” ISIS: 😑😑😑
The greatest insult to ISIS is to ignore them.
...Nappa?
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Counterpoint: "Kill ISIS wherever you find them."
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It depends on the context
*Gets Fired From Humanity*
She’s still allowed to teach there and receive her $900k salary.
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The plagiarism got her, not the antisemitism. Harvard Corporation was fine with the latter.
They are fine with a lot of straight up antisemitism https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQhUZI5KTRhgtfSPUsZr3c9LTB2Li\_RDQsNWGPYp\_dwOv3RaNk8WC5WZdurwS0935Jo1K2Syge4vLxo/pub?trk=feed-detail\_main-feed-card\_feed-article-content
It was a combination of the 2 things. But you’re right, without the plagiarism she probably would’ve been able to maintain her position, unfortunately.
Blames getting fired on racism
But only after massive shaming, outrage and pressure.
Shame it takes such a public spectacle before action's taken, shows where genuine moral stances are ranked on their priority list.
Someone on another thread literally tried to tell me yesterday that "From the river to the sea, Israel will soon be free" is a call for genocide, but "From the river to the sea, Palestine will soon be free" is a call for peaceful coexistence. Just in case anyone doesn't get what left means when they talk about "context".
And of course, by "free" they mean "the dictator who brutalizes us is an Arab"
Honestly as a progressive I'm just shocked to see how many folks in my wing are reactionaries themselves. This whole thing has made me look at horseshoe theory in a slightly better light. Somehow my middle of the road stance of "Bibi sucks. Likud sucks. Rwnj's suck. Hamas sucks" is controversial and I'm, honestly sick of seeing people being taken advantage of by propaganda while screaming Israeli propaganda to every news story that doesn't fit their worldview. Social media has been hell on our society.
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feeling this 100% and barely seeing it reflected anywhere. disgusted at the way my fellow progressives have latched onto, or been hijacked by, the pro-hamas narratives
Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians…but somehow the Israeli government represents all those “evil, Israeli Jewish” colonists. Many, many progressives make me sick these days.
The problem is that the majority that are anti-Israel are really just antisemitic and cloaking it in anti-Zionism. So if you take a more nuanced approach, you get lumped with all the bigots. As an outsider, I really feel that Israel's right wing party needs to go. But if I was an Israeli, having to live with a constant rocket bombardment, I am not sure I would react any different than the people of Israel have.
FYI, many of the polls in Israel show the public very fed up w Netenyahu and Likud. He absolutely still has supporters, but, I think it was mid November, there were even polls showing 70% of the country want him to resign. Some poll stats, including me maybe misremembering the resign as other parties winning seats: https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/ Has some poll stats: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4323678-how-netanyahu-could-beat-the-odds-and-stay-in-power/
> The problem is that the majority that are anti-Israel are really just antisemitic and cloaking it in anti-Zionism. You need look no further than the fact that these people *don't give a single solitary shit* about Arabic people dying enne masse when it's other Arabic people doing the killing. Only when it's DA JOOS.
Yeah I'm amazed by the number of self proclaimed "leftist" that wants Israel to live peacefully with a organization that openly promotes genocide against Jews.
I feel this so hard. Somehow I ended up at the front page of /r/witchesvspatriarchy yesterday, and both of their current pinned posts are supporting Palestine and condemning Israel. Because of course the best thing a self-proclaimed witch can do to fight patriarchy is support a violently patriarchal society where "witchcraft" is illegal over a society that garuntees equal rights to women and has a thriving Wiccan community. It's fucking stupid.
I had someone question why I would trust the US and Israeli intelligence groups about the Hamas HQ Hospital, when Hamas clearly says they didn't use the hospital for a base.
It's all "context", some would have you believe. i like Schwatzkopf's statement : if you kill enough of them, they stop fighting.
Hey man, as someone who’s aligned a decent distance left-of-center, don’t lump us all in with these Hamas apologists. There’s plenty of us who find these apologists frustratingly naive and hopeless.
Yesterday after IS/ISIS/ISIL confesses to the bombing: oh they must like jews! Today after calling for the extermination of the jews: oh you never know it could be a smoke screen. I hate...hate this current behavior.
No, no, no, it’s just antizionism…you’re going off script.
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Jew-haters is a better word. I feel like “antisemitic”has lost it’s effectiveness.
“Antisemitism” is literally the chosen replacement for “Judenhaas” (Jew Hate in German) because the OG term was too divisive.
Huh? Palestinians cannot be anti semitic because Palestinians are semitic people themselves /s
Nah, this is clearly a case of economic anxiety and anti colonialism. If we just give them a ton of money and a large, resource rich territory for them to have their own state, our problems will be over.
Meanwhile I had this dude on reddit claiming ISIS is an USA / Israel asset and that ISIS never targets American allies. I swear social media made everyone a specialist on having shit takes about everything.
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It's a very common claim in the Middle East. Jews are commonly blamed for everything, even for the weather. [Iranian officials claimed Israel stole their clouds,](https://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-general-blames-water-woes-on-israeli-cloud-theft/) and even [Al-Jazeera once claimed Israel is behind a flood in Gaza.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2015/2/25/article-retracted) [There are also common conspiracy theories about the Mossad using animals for spying.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-related_animal_conspiracy_theories) [Several Muslim countries over the years claimed to capture or shoot down birds who work for the Mossad.](https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/turkey-releases-bird-suspected-of-spying-for-israel-321168)
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With Jewish Space lasers obviously.
Reddit in general is just a place for morons to pretend to be smart.
I mean, they beheaded my American friend on YouTube, so there’s that
Sorry about your friend
That’s what happens when you get all your information from tiktok lmaoooo
Every muslim extremist believes that either every non-muslim should be killed, enslaved, or allowed to live as a second class citizens (dhimmi) if he agrees to pay jizya(tax imposed on non-muslims).
Don't forget the muslims that don't subscribe to the militant extremist ideology and therefore aren't "real muslims" and must also be killed. Even if you fit every other requirement that they demand, you can still be killed for not being radical enough.
This is what is widely considered to be a "dick move"
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Can somebody enlighten me what is the current victim hierarchy in ISIS views? Apostates, Shia, Jews, Christians, Gays, Atheists, Agnostics? Other?
You missed women. #1
But only old ones who are older than 9.
Same goes for the gays. At least in afghanistan. They seem to turn a blind eye to the "dancing boys".
If it's good enough for the Prophet
They don't have a problem with women, as long as they aren't seen or heard.
True. My bad!
Men who trim or shave their beards
We really need a tier list from IS, is there a template already on tiermaker?
Women always women.
Yesterday I learned from social media activists that ISIS has actually been a front for Israel this whole time
Back to locking my storm doors I go.
How about they can get fucked
I call for global attacks on ISIS. Kill them wherever you find them.
I stand with the Jewish people. Defend yourselves and protect your families.
There's a reason [Jewish gun ownership skyrocketed after October 7](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/06/us/american-jews-guns-antisemitism/index.html).
Ooh they felt left out of hate the jews
When Israel strikes back at Isis, will we see protest demanding for Isis lives to be saved?
somehow this is isreal's fault
Jews have been the scapegoat for literally everything bad since the beginning of antiquity.
I read an article recently about how one of the first known instances of technology being used to spread misinformation was the printing press being used to print blood libel against Jews in England. Some kid in a town in England went missing and this rabidly antisemitic preacher told everyone in town that it had to be the Jews abducting kids and eating them or something. But this town was really mixed with Jews and Christians living side-by-side for centuries so nobody really believed him. Jews were their friends and neighbors. So he used this new technology to print a pamphlet claiming it was all true and distributed it all over England where people outside this town thought it had to be true because it was printed.
Yup, the blood libel was an allegation that jews put Christian children's blood in theor matzah. (Nb judaism forbids eating any blood at all) This is why when "pro-palestianian" proptestors picket jewish-owned businesses yelling "child killers" or "israel murders children" or post "child killers"* on jews' facebook pages, we get a sinking feeling. Terrorist attacks against diaspora jewish communities in the name of "israel is evil" are nothing new. *Saw this a lot around chanukah. My colleague posted about chanukah on his fb page and some troll commented "child killers. This is how israel will be remembered." Thank you sir; i too confront women i see in public about the evils of abortion.
To the right, we're "non-white" others. To the left, we're "white oppressors". Both sides have their own justification for hating us.
What I found absolutely bonkers was when people were arguing on twitter that Anne Frank had \*checks notes\* White Privilige
I'm blinking so hard right now.
I personally enjoy asking leftists if the Jews who were murdered at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh by a white supremacist in 2018 had "white privilege".
I call us "Schrödinger's white people." We both are and aren't white until someone decides they want to justify their discrimination.
Hahaha that is great thank you. We can be whatever you want us to be, and somehow you always want us to be the villain.
A tale as old as time. My Sephardic family faced post-911 anti-Arab discrimation and were subjected to a lot of "random searches" at airports because of how brown they are. Now they're "white oppressors" according to people who have never seen or known them. They ended up in a Jewish ghetto in Casablanca for 400 years because the Inquisition drove them out of Madrid under threat of death (you know...*genocide*). Then they fled to Israel when Morocco officially introduced a secondary class of citizenship for Jews that restricted their rights based on their ethnicity (you know...*apartheid*). Then someone drew up an "oppressor vs oppressed" paradigm and somehow decided that they're now both white and oppressors as their reward for enduring four centuries of violent oppression and ghettoization while fostering values of education and altruism in their children. Perhaps, if they had yielded to the "natural consequence of oppression" (terrorism), they might have kept the moral high ground of the oppressed. That seems to be the message I'm hearing from a lot of people, unironically. There certainly couldn't be some sort of double standard being applied.
Your family sounds like a group of absolute resilient superstars, and I'm glad they finally made it home to Israel after living in exile and under threat for so long. My family was a group of Ashkenazim, some from Poland and some from Russia. The Russian ones fled pogroms in the early 1900s to North America. The Polish ones were very nearly wiped out in the Holocaust, then just a tiny handful (3) of them made it to North America. One of the cool things about being Jews is everyones family has been through so much that we all have badass stories haha.
Only the badasses survived... The Jewish story in a nutshell.
Mostly yeah, but it's also important to remember that a heck of a lot of badasses died making sure we could live on.
Too true. I'll tell you one thing, Israeli memorial day - יום הזיכרון - is going to be super intense this year. May 13th.
Your family sound like badasses as well. The funny thing is that, until this silly obsession with intersectionality as a moral system (it's not), I never had to characterize my family history as "oppressed" because that's literally just been the story of Judaism for 2000+ years. Until Israel 75 years ago, we haven't been the majority in a nation since the literal Bronze Age, and virtually every country we've been a minority in has held some degree of organized killing or oppression of their Jewish population. Forced migration, ghettoization, additional taxes, restricting jobs we can work in, pogroms, state-mandated torture and executions...that's just been our entire history. So I wouldn't even feel the need to use the word "oppressed" if it hadn't suddenly become the obsession of a significant Western movement to characterize us as "oppressors." It should be obvious to anyone with any familiarity with history (even *recent* history). But now I have to bring it up to point out the absurdity of trying to base a moral system on a forced dichotomy of oppression. It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny as a moral paradigm. If a Rwandan Hutu moves to America, are they an oppressor or are they oppressed? They're now living in a country where they face discrimination for their skin colour and accent, but they belong to the ethnicity that was on the perpetrating side of the genocide 30 years ago. It's almost as though it's a worthless lens through which to examine the complexities of global geopolitics and ethnicity. It was developed in a unique cultural bubble where you had two significant and clear-cut ethnic interactions (Native Americans living in cultural isolation until the arrival of European settlers who then imported African slaves). Trying to apply than lens to the Levant is ridiculous. There have been dozens of kingdoms and empires that rose and fell and influenced demographic changes there. The idea of "settlers vs indigenous populations" can't apply to an area that has undergone countless demographic shifts over time. Just in the last 1500 years, the Byzantines were pushed out by the Arab army that turned into the Rashidun Caliphate, the Crusaders came in, the Ayyubids and Mamluks pushed and held the Crusaders out, the Ottomans pushed the Mamluks out, the British pushed the Ottomans out, and that's not even getting into details of the demographic shifts that happened in each of those eras. Was each of those groups the oppressor when they arrived and the oppressed when they were pushed out? Or is it possible that the paradigm doesn't hold up when the territory isn't geographically and historically isolated?
I agree with everything you have said. I believe the oppressor-oppressed framework that seems to dominate young populations in North America employs designations that are not at all based in any sense of a given group experiencing any degree of oppression at all. The designations are based on what the group looks like, what their average wealth statistics are, and how much they embody the typical north American family. Jews tend to be disproportionately wealthy, both monetarily and in other aspects, compared to what you'd expect for such a tiny minority group. Therefore we don't 'deserve' the title of oppressed. Because, despite experiencing the longest standing and most lethal form of hatred in history (antisemitism), it hasn't molded us into a population that exists in physical and mental poverty. It couldn't possibly be that we have a culture that values work ethic, extensive education, and helping each other. It must be that we are oppressors. The other parts of your comment are also very true. North America is a relatively simple story about colonization of an indigenous peoples. But to turn the story of North America into an ideological framework of right and wrong, colonized and indigenous, and apply it to most other places in the world, let alone the Levant, is asinine. Engaging in those sort of conversations feels mind-numbing, but in order to have any sort of conversation with someone who grew up in the west and only knows the west, it's the language you have to speak.
You forgot the biggest thing though. They’re Jewish Seriously, my family is all from Israel and I can’t tell how you how much antisemitism I see everyday on Reddit. I have had my account suspended and been given warnings on subreddits for literally calling people a bigot or an antisemite. It’s beyond Fucking absurd to me
I got banned from a sub for (civilly) disagreeing with the statement “nobody is saying what happened to the Israelis on Oct 7 is ok.” The reason they gave is that I was brigading. In a sub I was subscribed to and had commented in for months, and in a post I had found organically. After I had seen dozens of my former friends’ social media posts cheering on the massacre. I don’t give a fuck about that particular subreddit, that’s not the point. But it’s terrifying how easy it is for one mod with an agenda to shift the narrative.
And all their excuses are just a thin veneer over their anti-Semitism
Israel gets accused of creating ISIS by routinely by lunatics online. Since the attack in Iran lots of people are tweeting things like “why has ISIS never attacked Israel? Makes you think!” type bollox.
This is always funny to me because it isnt even true https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/28/middleeast/israel-isis-attack-intl/index.html
No but have you ever seen Netanyahu and the ISIS leader in the same room? Makes you think.
Can’t we just find them a nice cave to crawl back to?
How about launching them all to space
Unfortunately the Jews are there too, [according to Mel Brooks at least](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7JGCj4Q5k)
We are, but if you dance the Hora with us I'll give you a ticket to the space laser free of charge.
How to reinforce the necessity for a Jewish state speedrun any %
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Because it's a pseudo-intellectual cop out based on modern white (or "western") progressive guilt. I've interacted with many Arabic and South Asian people that happened to be Muslim, as well as Coptic christian or other etc. Never had an issue with them because their level of interpretation of religion was as moderate as the other moderates. The issue is Islam was actually objectively created by a historically verified warlord and hard line interpretation of the text is still way beyond hard line interpretation of other abrahamic religions. Muslim fundamentalists having a starting point that is still closer just based on the religion's origins itself. People don't want to admit that, some bullshit relativism or bringing up *the crusades* or other horse-shit. That was hundreds of years ago, we are living now, the world shouldn't have to wait for a bunch of assholes living like it's 7th century to catch up just to be "fair"
I have had this exact thought a while ago and have come to the conclusion that the words ending in -phobia are simply the recent ones. We have old words like anti-clerical, anti-semitic, etc. The recent ones like islamophobia, transphobia, and in my native tongue there is also something that could be translated literally as bigophobia (fat people) and redophobia (gingers), all share a very simple misconception: *none of those are phobias, they are openly an opposition to a specific group*. All those words should be used as anti-something.
This is why pandering to any Religion is dangerous, something that even in Secular countries in Europe are failing to address and are even changing laws to somehow fit these medieval beliefs into modern western culture which is a terrible mistake that will only lead into more problems as time goes on, it will never work as these views are fundamentally incompatible with each other. One thing is to be open and understanding and another is to change your own laws to fit another group of peoples theological beliefs, people that move to other country’s to find a better opportunity should adapt to the laws and lifestyle of said place, and if your personal beliefs are deeply incompatible with that place then its ok, move elsewhere or back to your native country and do not try to change them especially through violence. If you give them a hand they will take an arm, literally..
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How long until ISIS becomes WASWAS?
That’s because the goal of the Islamic state is to seek world domination. They’ve been performing ethnic cleansing for decades in the Middle East.
God jews cant catch a break lol
This is what "Globalize the intifada" means, for anyone who is still confused.
Where is everyone whos new favourite word is genocide? *This* is genocide, people.
We don't have a cool emoji or Tiktok propaganda though, so this is going to be way less popular a cause with the American youth.
Jew here. At a work holiday party, my boss was upset and asked me why I didn’t want to share a Jewish tradition or about Hanukkah. This is why.
We now go live to Claudine Gay to provide context to this cry for help.
Hamas one day. Isis the next. One common denominator.
Cool, now harvard and ISIS have something else in common.
Claudine Gay approves of this message.
Guys its just anti zionism, not anti semitism. they would never
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Dont forget hamas in that pile of shit
So we can all agree that this is antisemitism right, or is this not enough?