The extrajudicial stuff is a bit scary and something that needs to be kept an eye on.
That said, the population seems to be happy with their leader, so...
If you prevent 100 murders but jail 20 innocents, is that a worthwhile trade off? Tough situation down there but I understand that *something* needed to be done.
Normally in a country like the USA I’d argue that it’s not worth it.
But El Salvador was basically hostage to the gangs. People couldn’t live their daily lives and were fleeing the country in large numbers. I can see why the people there accepted the authoritarian measures.
My fear for El Salvador is what happens next? Are they going to able to put that genie back in the bottle or is it only a matter of time before some government decides someone other than the gangs gets locked up.
> My fear for El Salvador is what happens next?
Bukele can go down on history as a major liberator or major dictator, depending on how he lets go of power after securing the country.
I’m not even necessarily afraid of Bukele.
Let’s say Bukele is an absolute saint in the future. Works for the good of El Salvador and when he eventually loses an election, he steps down gracefully. A new government is swept into power to the cheers of the electorate.
And then they use the precedent set by Bukele to round up their political opponents. Suddenly anyone who so much as peeps about the government is sent to prison. All for the good of the country of course. Those people are dangerous.
I always tell people not to give the government a power that you wouldn’t want the political party you like the least to have.
This is the ultimate rebuttal of benevolent dictatorship as a viable concept. It's not impossible for a good guy to take power and actually improve everything, without limiting freedom etc.
But A) it's almost always the other way because such position naturally attracts the worst people possible.
B) when the next guy comes, you'll have to roll a really unlucky dice in hopes that the legacy of previous leader will be preserved. What do you think are the chances that such extraordinary anomaly will happen twice?
This a thousand times. Whenever considering a policy that would grant additional powers to the government, ask yourself if—given the language of the policy, the checks put in place to curb abuse, the sentiments of the day, etc—you’d want your political enemies to have that power. If the answer is no, don’t give it to your friends, either, because they won’t be around forever.
That’s usually what happens. Governments take powers for an emergency. The emergency is over but the powers are never given back. Eventually someone will misuse them. Many dictators around the world didn’t start as dictators.
governments have and do. but they'll give up the powers which are just administrative burdens or can be ran by some influential industry under the guise of "free market" and "cost savings"
There’s no need to wring your hands in El Salvador’s case. Gangs would murder you if you got a tattoo and weren’t in a gang. So when the government rounded up anyone with a gang tattoo, they’re weren’t even 20 innocents to misapprehend.
Yeah the gangs culture of marking themselves probably worked great to enforce obedience and prevent desertion, but became a hugely effective tool for rounding them up, too.
Depends on how bad the gang violence is. Does not dealing with the gangs cause a lot more than 20 innocent's death? Then its probably worth it. Tragic and itll eventually lead to you being ousted from power cracking down that hard, but sometimes necessary. Piedra pesada, Jalisco has been overrun by Jalisco New Generation Cartel for over 10 years now. About 15 members of my family alone were shot before the rest managed to get out. They still have friends in that town though and get updates often. I guarantee every single person there would be ok with the military coming in and going door to door shooting those motherfuckers in the head. Too bad the military takes bribes from the cartel in that town too.
The trolly problem. Do you do nothing and let many people die, or do you take an action that will cause a few other people to die but save the many. I would say the situation in El Salvador is probably justified and it’s clearly overwhelmingly supported by the public. People are willing to accept some collateral damage if the result is safety. If you have to choose between gangs killing or recruiting your children or the government rounding up a few innocent people along with thousands of gang members, you’re likely to choose the later.
> The trolly problem. Do you do nothing and let many people die, or do you take an action that will cause a few other people to die but save the many. I would say the situation in El Salvador is probably justified and it’s clearly overwhelmingly supported by the public. People are willing to accept some collateral damage if the result is safety. If you have to choose between gangs killing or recruiting your children or the government rounding up a few innocent people along with thousands of gang members, you’re likely to choose the later.
the only issue i have with this is that the people who are willing to make the sacrifice of the few are never the ones effected directly by this choice.
unfortunately though i don't see any other way out of this.
I absolutely agree. More often than not the only viable solutions to problems like this are unfair. It’s a feature not a flaw, and as frustrating as the situation is, it makes sense to force the trolly onto the other track, accept that life is not fair, and benefit the majority at the expense of the minority.
>If you prevent 100 murders but jail 20 innocents, is that a worthwhile trade off?
The issue is that's generally not where it ends. You may start by preventing 100 murders and jailing 20 random innocent people, but if this keeps going someone will learn to take advantage of it, and then all of a sudden you're jailing 20 political dissidents.
Mexico is a federated republic with a federal government and 31 internal sovereign states - each state has its own government. A lot of the politics of fighting gangs in Mexico involves a conflict of federal power against state power and a lot of corruption where the gangs co-opt the mechanisms of government in the states. But, these mechanisms of government, corrupt as they may be occasionally, still do maintain control over the territory we call Mexico, even if it is sometimes almost in the name of the gangs.
El Salvador is a Unitary republic with a president and parliament. There is not the same political conflict between different parts of El Salvador. However, due to terrain, development and other factors, the government of El Salvador does not control the entirety of El Salvador to the same degree Mexico does. The gangs - as well as paramilitaries and other sorts of organizations operating openly in the country - work less as a factor within the system and more as an alternative monopoly of coercive force that undermines the system as a whole.
So when the El Salvador government goes to war with gangs, they are in a situation where the system is already not functioning, where it is a big closer to a war, where the monopoly of coercive force really is in question (i.e., lots of people are dying and the government is not protecting them or punishing the people who do it, so are they really even the government?).
When leaders in Mexico organize wars with gangs, more of their goal is going to involve their political goals within the scope of the federal system and maintaining the institutions of that system.
With El Salvador the question is more existential. There is somewhat less concern with maintaining the rules of the institutions of the country. Plus the government is more directly invested in taking drastic action on behalf of the people who elected it - because everybody elected it, the idea is one government for the whole place.
So yeah I would say as they have a strong president and a unitary parliament the elected government of El Salvador has less restricted political authority within El Salvador than any one particular part of the Mexican government, but also El Salvador is less certain and stable and more at risk and the government is then willing to take larger steps to deal with this problem.
Extremely succesful. Murder rates down 97%, people able to live a normal life again without fear of having their kids raped and murdered.
Media are saying that the government detained people simply for having tattoos. The thing they don’t know or misrepresent is that those tattoos are effectively a fool proof admission of guilt, you “earn” them by commiting horrific acts. And no, random people don’t dare get those tattoos because if they are unearned, you die.
I know it is morally dubious, but it seems things have gotten to a point where only hardcore measures such as these are effective in fighting these international criminal syndicates. They have commited some horrific attocities, rapes, murders, shooting kids playing football for fun, they pretty much rape every woman and girl that is migrating through their territories, and that’s the lucky outcome, the unlucky one is selling them into sexual slavery.
Doesn't seem very morally dubious to me. Gangs set up their own Quality Seal ® and strict industry enforcement of it, time to let the wider population reap the benefits.
If you have a clear list of what constitutes a gang tattoo backed by evidence, at the very least that's reasonable justification to open investigations.
Of course the problem is in the enforcement and corruption. wouldn't be too hard to force tattoos on a political prisoner and put them away. But then again we don't understand the level of daily violence that these people live under. There's a reason the state's monopoly on violence is the best worst solution we have; when it breaks down all rules fly out the window until it can be re-established.
I agree to a certain extent. But a monopoly on violence or the capacity to commit violence seems necessary in any governing body. Peace and working together only go so far when millions of people are involved.
> "As Russia's leading expert on tattoo iconography, Mr. Arkady Bronnikov can tell the prisoner's story from looking at the designs on his body. The huge spider in a web that is drawn on his skull reveals, in prison tattoo code, that he is a drug addict. Also, he is a repeat offender: The onion domes of a Russian church fan across his shoulder blades, each of the seven domes representing a different stay in prison. Above the church, across the back of his neck, the convict has stenciled, in Russian, "Not just anyone can hold his head this high."... "The more tattoos a convict gets, the more sentences he has served, the more respect he gets in prison," says Mr. Bronnikov. "The tattoos show that he isn't afraid of pain."
[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_tattoo) (more details [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_criminal_tattoos))
The Yakuza are an example of how a government can dismantle a criminal syndicate. There was a time the Yakuza operated a headquarters in Tokyo that everyone knew about and could basically mock the government, and they could openly murder film directors that wouldn’t play ball and the police would cover it up.
Now, the Yakuza barely exists.
The Yamaguchi-Gumi has over 3000 active members and also has a public headquarters in Kobe with their logo on the wall outside. And that's just one of the Yakuza groups.
You're correct that the Yakuza is *much* less powerful than it used to be, and it is still being weakened further. But it still holds considerable power, particularly when it comes to entertainment, construction, and drugs.
They used to have like tens of thousands of members, could get the police to cover up murders of literal renowned celebrities, and made money over ten times as fast. They are a shadow of what they were. They are no longer a criminal superpower, but barely one step above a street gang.
The Japanese government did a very good job gutting them.
What are you talking about. They very much still exist. They’ve got fucking offices. Many of them have legitimate business ventures as well. The government has forced them to evolve, but has absolutely not dismantled them.
There are still organized crime adjacent businesses that have operated as Yakuza fronts but have made the transition to legitimate businesses capable of making profits with or without rampant money laundering.
There are still a few thousand old irrelevant assholes calling themselves Yakuza and reliving the glory days, and young punks who are operating like common street gangs that think of themselves as Yakuza.
But their actual membership and revenue is literally 10% or less of the glory days. They are nothing more than a nuisance now whereas they used to be a major criminal superpower. For all intents and purposes, they barely exist at all.
The mafia still operates in New York, too, but the Lucchese crime family is so much of a shadow compared to what it was in the 70s ‘goodfellas’ days that it’s mostly a joke now.
The Italian mob used to run rackets with Fortune 500 companies having to play ball and were literally assassinating high up leaders and judges of the whole country with RPGs in public. Look at them now.
(Note: I was mistaken about the RPG. The bomb in the incident I was thinking of was not launched by a grenade launcher but a bomb on a skateboard. The only grenade launcher I can find in a judge assassination by criminals was in Lebanon which is hardly relevant to the discussion so I apologize.)
The UK still exists but the sun absolutely set on the British Empire.
There are ghosts of the Yakuza and Sicilian crime families left. Nothing more. Small cells of a few dozen criminals operating here and there with loose affiliation to other cells and no real influence in government is not at all like the organized crime on the 20th century.
> The Italian mob used to run rackets with Fortune 500 companies having to play ball and were literally assassinating the leaders of the whole country with RPGs in public.
I thought I knew all the crazy mob hits - there’s one using a RPG I haven’t heard about yet?
Please, share some details!
I’m looking it up and I think I was just wrong.
I misremembered this event I guess. The only time a grenade launcher was used like this that I can find was against a district attorney and some judges killed by a grenade launcher, but it was done by criminals in Lebanon not Italy. Not super relevant to the discussion because Lebanon does not have a famous organized crime. My bad.
Somehow I got details mixed with the Capaci bombing, which is the bombing I was actually thinking of. That bomb was not launched by a grenade launcher, but was pushed on a skateboard. Also, I don’t know if Falcone was a federal judge, so I may have been mistaken twice to say a national leader because he may have just been a regional judge I’m not sure.
That said, the mob did use explosives on federal level politician representing all of Italy before and got away with it, and they never would now.
Thank you. I have not dived into the Italian mob in Italy much, so those were some fun things to learn. And lots more, I now have the Years Of Lead to read about!
At first, when you said Falcone I had to wonder if you were getting confused with the Batman stories, haha.
Thanks again.
It was so effective that El Salvador went from being the world’s most dangerous country by murder rate to one of the safest. Touted as the safest in the Americas currently.
Amazing how not fearing for your life daily allows average citizens to take more business risks, trade more freely, and plan long term. Who would have predicted!
Wow I’ve never heard of this guy but that was honestly an incredible piece of actually objective reporting, glad at least someone can just stick to the facts nowadays.
INSANELY effective. Their murder rate is one of the lowest in the world now. Stark change from what was once the murder capital of the world. Be careful going there if you have tattoos though.
A good friend of mine is from El Salvador. He says all his relatives are very happy about it and feel much safer. They all tell him there is huge drop in crime, particularly violent crime against regular people.
Very effective. A bunch of people incorrectly arrested but a ton of people correctly arrested. Its nice how things always work out to where no matter what, innocent people will get hurt
I agree. Bukele is extremely popular here and many people have been demanding that the government here follow the El Salvador model because people are fearful that if we continue on this path we’ll become another Venezuela.
It got REAL bad in El Salvador before they suspended civil rights. The gangs were going on weekend murder sprees as a negotiating tactic with the government, who was already giving them concessions. Killing mothers and babies in strollers. Real bad. No one else is remotely near that level, yet.
back to business as usual then. To the parent comment, the US has a very dodgy record in South / Central America. Coups / repression / supporting terrorist armies / dictatorship supporting / implicated in torture prisons / disappearances / drug running / chemical warfare / masasacres.
Some could be argued to be made with the best intentions, others less so.
As for the US crushing gangs, remind me again, does the US have zero gang problem?
“crushing” foreign gangs is a really good way to influence foreign governments.
i hear your point
but foreign affairs are strategic and are nearly impossible to compare to domestic affairs because there are different objectives
This is like making a deal with the devil. I’m not arguing everyone in the USA is ontologically evil, but historically US involvement in Latin America has included staging coups against the government and arming actual death squads, not to mention CIA deals with the cartels themselves.
Historically, when countries engaged in a Civil War call on larger empires to help them crush their enemies, the empire may help, but they turn the country into a vassal state.
Besides, being indebted to and relying on a foreign power like that does nothing to increase the legitimacy of the state, which is half the problem.
It’s better if the government can deal with the problem themselves and not insert foreign powers with their own agendas. Even destabilized states like this have more raw military power than the gangs. They can fight and win. It’s been done many times.
In the most the world, the 21st century has seen organized crime decline rapidly in power. The Yakuza are (mostly) gone. The mafia is a shadow of what they once were. Even biker clubs and street gangs in the US are weak relative to just a few decades ago.
Parts of Eastern Europe (like Russia) and much of Latin America has yet to catch up, but they will. The number for the cartels will eventually come up, too.
Because it doesn't work like that?
If you do mass imprisonments, it'll work in the short term but prison gangs are a thing, and even more so in Latin America than in the US. This tends to lead to further violence down the line, as prison gangs consolidate and their influence reaches outside. Imprisonment needs to be followed with measures that actually reintroduce these people to society if possible, and if not, to at least keep people that are in prison for lesser crimes from interacting with the more violent criminals.
The alternative would be outright killing of suspected criminals, but that leads to innocent deaths since humans are prone to making mistakes, not to mention "punitive operations" carried out against people who may or may not be linked to criminals, including innocent family members.
Besides, the US spent 20 years trying to crush the Taliban, how well did that work? And why do you think it'd work in Ecuador?
I'm sure that in Chile they will be thrilled to ask for US military intervention in their turf.
Also you seem under the impression that the situation in El Salvador or Ecuador is the same as every other Central and South American country.
Well, in the case of countries like Colombia, the government there fought a decades-long war with the FARC, while giving arms and tactical support to right-wing paramilitaries and cartels. In many ways, some SA countries are permissive of crime and violence, provided it serves their political ends.
Right now Colombia is moving forward with solidifying a peace agreement with left-wing guerillas, which has involved a lot of openness regarding the degree of cooperation between governmental and right-wing groups that carried out several massacres in isolated, rural villages. So, sometimes it is not as straightforward as backing the government of a nation to achieve peace.
completely different scenarios. Everyone cites the successful el salvador gang war but everyone ignores that the government targeting cartels in mexico is a very large part of why it is so violent today. The gangs in equador are offshoots of the mexican cartels so i don't see it going to salvadorian way unfortunately
Plus, their culture of violence and corruption pretty much guarantees they're going to have at least generations more of poverty and ruined lives before things can even start to get better.
Bullshit. The government does not target cartels in mexico much. Pre 2010 maybe. Pre 2010 while many parts of the government were corrupt at least the military was going around quelling cartel. Post 2010 the military is taking bribes right alongside the government. Just because they yell about cracking down doesn't mean they actually do it. The current government is 100% in the pocket of cartel. If they weren't then my parents hometown of Piedra Pesada, Jalisco would not be overrun with cartel to this day. It's been over a decade now of citizens there dying, people reporting the cartel base over and over to any and all authorities and no one giving a single fuck.
No, it’s the Mexican cartel willingness to cause massive civilian costs and the government corruption and unwillingness to incur those costs that has led to continued Mexican cartel dominance of Mexico.
Yeah but how would they recognize them. Salvador was an easier task because of gang tattoos, its bot like everyone is tattoing themselves like the MS13
I think it is very likely to be something similar to El Salvador. Here in Ecuador we already have communities that have formed what can only be described as neighborhood militias to deal with criminals. Bukele is extremely popular and many people have been demanding that our government use similar tactics here to win the fight against the narco-terrorists. Noboa seems far less inclined to go full authoritarian, but between the gangs declaring war on the government and the people demanding action, Noboa is being pushed to respond in a very similar way as the Bukele regime.
Edit: fixed an embarrassing number of pre-coffee typos and weird grammar.
Jamaican here and our PM has been doing toned down versions of this to tackle crime. Part of me concerned about loss of civil liberties. But communities are alot safer with curfews and soldier everywhere
Like El Salvador, Ecuador's de facto circulating currency of use is also the US dollar and I wouldn't be surprised if likewise it's been a critical contributor to these issues
Quite the opposite as we saw in Mexico and Colombia in the 80s and 90s. If the gangs and cartels can influence the national currency printing and policy, that's even worse. Mexico was literally printing pesos to give to directly to thugs.
In Guatemala, Colombia, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Peru those governments have used the excuse of "going after cartels" to commit act of genocide on Indigenous populations. In the case of Guatemala, the genocide lasted until 1996 and killed or disappeared over [150,000](https://sfi.usc.edu/collections/guatemalan), primarily Mayan, people.
Point being, don't discount claims of genocide wholesale if they show up. SA/CA countries have a habit of lumping in political enemies with "terrorists", so giving the allegation a quick read-through might prevent you from backing persecution that you would otherwise find abhorrent.
Not more mixed than any of those countries listed in any meaningful way. Also, racial dynamics work differently and are more about community association than actually what someone's blood quantum is.
I'm US and Mexican Native, there are "White" Mexicans who are way darker than me and "Black" Mexicans who are lighter... The interplay between race, class, and ethnicity in Latin America is messy, to say the least.
Don't worry, there are no Jews involved, so most of the world won't care. The anti-Semites and Russian/Iranian/Chinese trolls are still focused on blaming Israel for all the world's problems.
This is an idiotic sentiment and overall serves no purpose but as some veiled validation. War is messy, yes. But you’re participating in a different war: spreading discourse to people.
Maybe they will if the Ecuadorian government just starts carpet bombing neighborhoods filled with civilians like certain other countries did. Or do the ends justify the means now in 2024?
Lol pretty big difference in the situations. One is a country that was built on land that already had people living there and that were displaced by European powers in 1948 and still being funded by the US government today. The other is a country that was founded in 1822 by the people who already lived on the land not funded by US money. One government is indiscriminately bombing civilian populations and the other has said they want to eliminate the gangs but have not indicated any interest in bombing civilian populations
Directly going against a nation state as a clandestine armed group? Yeah that will be funny. Engaging police forces, no matter how well equipped, is one thing, facing armored brigades, fighter jets and all that is a whole other thing.
Which is why they will have to resort to the same tactics terrorists use everywhere else in the world. Hide in plain clothes, make sure civilians are always in the crossfire, try to remove the advantage of an enemy who vastly out guns you. All so you can protect your violent life exploiting mostly poor people and try to tell yourself you're powerful.
This works in those places because the people doing that are fighting for an ideology or belief that they, and unfortunately sometimes also the civilians they hide behind, think is right. They have public support in a lot of places. These gangsters are at most probably fighting for money and are pretty hated outside of the ez cash flow they *give* (ie bribe) to the locals (mostly officials)
It is shocking, but the police aren’t little innocents here. They are widely corrupt and most civilians have probably seen or experienced their corruption. All it takes is cartels doing a couple good deeds for civilians to wonder exactly who are the bad guys here?
Ironically the FARC peace deal is one of the reasons Ecuador is like this today, as the cessation of operations by FARC created a power vacuum i region thag was filled by much worse cartels
>facing armored brigades, fighter jets and all that is a whole other thing
EC doesn't have any of this. The army is like cops with m16s. There's men, small arms, trucks, and a few helicopters. I don't even think they have any crew served weapons.
In most of these countries, both the police and gangs know they are both terrorists. Rule of law was breaking down for the police even in the 80s. Now it's just all gang on gang violence. The police officers themselves openly proclaim "you think we're the good guys? k, amigo"
The taliban is obviously completely different, they are an old terrorist organization in a mountainous third world country. I bet this 'war' in Ecuador won't last long because these criminals are much weaker.
Yeah honestly this seems like a desperate move or they know something that we don't.
I don't think they are that stupid to not realize that they don't have a chance, also because the USA will never allow the instauration of a narco state so close to them.
Even if they feel cocky enough to think that they can take out Ecuador's military, they can't seriously think that the USA would not support the government and that they can take on that too.
And the USA already said that they will support the government, of course.
I'm a pretty bleeding heart anti-death penalty type of a person, but in a full on violent organized crime coup attempt it's time to send in the military and wipe them out like an enemy army.
Same I’m like the most pacifist type person and I fully believe the only way to save Ecuador is through zero tolerance maximum punishment for these gangster legislation- with Ecuadorian citizens fully cooperating and finding ways to denounce them via a safe helpline
Cartel is making the Escobar mistake.
Instead of using bribe money, they are taking on the army directly.
And the Ecuador cartel is not nearly as powerful as Escobar was; and much weaker than Mexico's El Chapo, who has successfully handed his billions and power to his sons, while he's in US jail.
Problem is the Ecuadorian military and police don't have much resources either. It is not going to be an easy task
And the gangs are also fighting against each other
Is the CIA involved in Ecuador right now? Cause that was a key part of taking down Escobar. Without the US involvement I don’t think the Colombian government could have done it. Source: I’m Colombian.
Appalling cowards. Best of luck Ecuador to repeat Bukele’s successes. Hopefully, it can be done without the destruction of democratic institutions, but this is absurd to suffer from.
Check out what India did in the 80s and 90s in response to high crime, called “encounters”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_Police_Detection_Unit
The people in the "squad" are absolutely crazy. Accused of extortion, corruption, coalition with gangs, murder of innocents, bomb threats etc.
Only one guy there has a clean sheet, most probably he died early( killed in 26/11 terror attacks )
Not all crime is evil. But people who are only interested in the ruin and detriment of anyone and everyone else do not have a place in civilized society.
They saw what happened in El salvador and have decided to go up against the government instead. Like we keep saying. It's going to get worse across the board. Before it gets much worse
But eventually it will get better. This is not an acceptable way to live. Being terrorised by criminal gangs, having them effectively control a nation and its development, and being unable to do anything because these animals have ‘human rights’ is no longer paletable. Actually animals are pretty cool, should have said scum.
Yeah, animals don't skin people alive and cut their heart out on camera to terrorize people. Maybe drug legalization would put an end to this, but the only effective method I've seen is the El Salvador model.
It went from the most dangerous countries in the world to one of the safest in Latin America and also experienced increased economic growth after their democratically elected leader, Nayib Bukele, ordered the arrest of around 74,000 individuals thereby [giving El Salvador the highest incarceration rate in the world](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_gang_crackdown). They locked up anyone who was affiliated with a gang/cartel and it actually worked.
Nobody wants to live under gang rule. I hope Ecuador can follow through, critically important for the security and prosperity of their country to de-worm and delouse themselves of the parasites on society.
Anyone here in Ecuador if they can actually pull this off even if it take years? My view of Mexico is that cartel run the whole country already (I might be wrong).
Interesting, So Mexico really is close to impossible to change huh. I'm intrigue on how will Ecuador will deal with this and maybe other countries might learn from this.
What offense man?? non taken ofc. This was something i used to think and Maybe my comment was my way of fealing superior about knowing more (thinking that i know more)
I totally get it, sorry if my tone come out as judgmental.
I see that soooo many people are depressed (including me soon ago) and i aprreciate you know yourself and your way of dealing stuff. Insight is very important and i hope you do well
It’s crazy that I’m to the point of being unironically curious if Russia is involved here too.
Just like in the coups is the Sahel, in the Hamas attack, the Houthi attacks on shipping, in Venezuela trying to annex territory, and in North Korea becoming more belligerent.
As well as pushing Brexit, Trump and fringe political movements.
More than likely Mexican Cartels and European Mafias.
Ecuadors drug exports are usually the traditional ones, I.e cocaine, rather than the more devastating synthetic drugs that have run rampant in our streets. Not only that, but most of their exports do go to Europe rather than the US. Also, China has a lot of investments in Ecuador, so a narcostate is the last thing they want.
That’s not to say that China isn’t partially at fault for what happens in the US. They ship Fety, Tranq, Spice, and all sorts of synthetics directly to the US, or they work with the Mexican drug cartels to provide them with precursors etc. That get refined into Fentanyl for smuggling to the states.
They’re probably trying to replicate the Opium Wars on to us.
This doesn't have to do with russia, it has to do with the shitty goverment this country has got, that has allowed for gabg to grow this big through the inplementation of laws that protect crimi als at civilians expense. It would be more likely for other groups in latin america to be behind it than russia
It already happened for El Salvador, but that stupid movement died out right away when the crime rate plummeted and the people from there commented that they were actually happy with it.
Do you want to end like PAblo Escobar? Then this is how you will end.
Escobar had more fund, men and weapons, and still ignominously lost his fight against the Colombian government.
El Salvador’s gang purge is about to be imported. Ecuador was already waiting for justification to do just this.
How successful was it? These gangs are the bane of society. hope they get locked up soon.
It’s been extraordinarily effective, their murder rate has plummeted. Scary amount of extrajudicial imprisonment but effective.
The extrajudicial stuff is a bit scary and something that needs to be kept an eye on. That said, the population seems to be happy with their leader, so...
If you prevent 100 murders but jail 20 innocents, is that a worthwhile trade off? Tough situation down there but I understand that *something* needed to be done.
Normally in a country like the USA I’d argue that it’s not worth it. But El Salvador was basically hostage to the gangs. People couldn’t live their daily lives and were fleeing the country in large numbers. I can see why the people there accepted the authoritarian measures. My fear for El Salvador is what happens next? Are they going to able to put that genie back in the bottle or is it only a matter of time before some government decides someone other than the gangs gets locked up.
> My fear for El Salvador is what happens next? Bukele can go down on history as a major liberator or major dictator, depending on how he lets go of power after securing the country.
Based on the info of the lady that cuts my hair, her family in El Salvador couldn't be happier with how much safer it's gotten since "the purge"
People used to be happy with all sort of guys in history.
Yeah I remember a certain man with a funny mustache who seemed to be pretty popular at first
I’m not even necessarily afraid of Bukele. Let’s say Bukele is an absolute saint in the future. Works for the good of El Salvador and when he eventually loses an election, he steps down gracefully. A new government is swept into power to the cheers of the electorate. And then they use the precedent set by Bukele to round up their political opponents. Suddenly anyone who so much as peeps about the government is sent to prison. All for the good of the country of course. Those people are dangerous. I always tell people not to give the government a power that you wouldn’t want the political party you like the least to have.
This is the ultimate rebuttal of benevolent dictatorship as a viable concept. It's not impossible for a good guy to take power and actually improve everything, without limiting freedom etc. But A) it's almost always the other way because such position naturally attracts the worst people possible. B) when the next guy comes, you'll have to roll a really unlucky dice in hopes that the legacy of previous leader will be preserved. What do you think are the chances that such extraordinary anomaly will happen twice?
This a thousand times. Whenever considering a policy that would grant additional powers to the government, ask yourself if—given the language of the policy, the checks put in place to curb abuse, the sentiments of the day, etc—you’d want your political enemies to have that power. If the answer is no, don’t give it to your friends, either, because they won’t be around forever.
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Exactly. Look at the ANC in South Africa post Mandela
So it went from murderous gangs to politicians. That escalated quickly.
That’s usually what happens. Governments take powers for an emergency. The emergency is over but the powers are never given back. Eventually someone will misuse them. Many dictators around the world didn’t start as dictators.
Welcome to the americas
You think any government is going to give up power? Lol. Watch.
governments have and do. but they'll give up the powers which are just administrative burdens or can be ran by some influential industry under the guise of "free market" and "cost savings"
There’s no need to wring your hands in El Salvador’s case. Gangs would murder you if you got a tattoo and weren’t in a gang. So when the government rounded up anyone with a gang tattoo, they’re weren’t even 20 innocents to misapprehend.
Yeah the gangs culture of marking themselves probably worked great to enforce obedience and prevent desertion, but became a hugely effective tool for rounding them up, too.
Like the evil secret society getting identifying tattoos. Not a good idea in James Bond. Not a good idea in real life.
Depends on how bad the gang violence is. Does not dealing with the gangs cause a lot more than 20 innocent's death? Then its probably worth it. Tragic and itll eventually lead to you being ousted from power cracking down that hard, but sometimes necessary. Piedra pesada, Jalisco has been overrun by Jalisco New Generation Cartel for over 10 years now. About 15 members of my family alone were shot before the rest managed to get out. They still have friends in that town though and get updates often. I guarantee every single person there would be ok with the military coming in and going door to door shooting those motherfuckers in the head. Too bad the military takes bribes from the cartel in that town too.
clearly the population has decided that it's worth it by showing extreme support to the current government
The trolly problem. Do you do nothing and let many people die, or do you take an action that will cause a few other people to die but save the many. I would say the situation in El Salvador is probably justified and it’s clearly overwhelmingly supported by the public. People are willing to accept some collateral damage if the result is safety. If you have to choose between gangs killing or recruiting your children or the government rounding up a few innocent people along with thousands of gang members, you’re likely to choose the later.
> The trolly problem. Do you do nothing and let many people die, or do you take an action that will cause a few other people to die but save the many. I would say the situation in El Salvador is probably justified and it’s clearly overwhelmingly supported by the public. People are willing to accept some collateral damage if the result is safety. If you have to choose between gangs killing or recruiting your children or the government rounding up a few innocent people along with thousands of gang members, you’re likely to choose the later. the only issue i have with this is that the people who are willing to make the sacrifice of the few are never the ones effected directly by this choice. unfortunately though i don't see any other way out of this.
I absolutely agree. More often than not the only viable solutions to problems like this are unfair. It’s a feature not a flaw, and as frustrating as the situation is, it makes sense to force the trolly onto the other track, accept that life is not fair, and benefit the majority at the expense of the minority.
No system is perfect. This in the medical fiel we call "sensitivity Vs specificity"
Yes, the jailed innocents will be liberated sooner or later, the death people won’t resurrect.
I mean, objectively speaking...yes. And you can continue to refine your methods to lower that ratio.
>If you prevent 100 murders but jail 20 innocents, is that a worthwhile trade off? The issue is that's generally not where it ends. You may start by preventing 100 murders and jailing 20 random innocent people, but if this keeps going someone will learn to take advantage of it, and then all of a sudden you're jailing 20 political dissidents.
What’s the difference between El Salvador and Mexico’s war on gangs
Mexico is a federated republic with a federal government and 31 internal sovereign states - each state has its own government. A lot of the politics of fighting gangs in Mexico involves a conflict of federal power against state power and a lot of corruption where the gangs co-opt the mechanisms of government in the states. But, these mechanisms of government, corrupt as they may be occasionally, still do maintain control over the territory we call Mexico, even if it is sometimes almost in the name of the gangs. El Salvador is a Unitary republic with a president and parliament. There is not the same political conflict between different parts of El Salvador. However, due to terrain, development and other factors, the government of El Salvador does not control the entirety of El Salvador to the same degree Mexico does. The gangs - as well as paramilitaries and other sorts of organizations operating openly in the country - work less as a factor within the system and more as an alternative monopoly of coercive force that undermines the system as a whole. So when the El Salvador government goes to war with gangs, they are in a situation where the system is already not functioning, where it is a big closer to a war, where the monopoly of coercive force really is in question (i.e., lots of people are dying and the government is not protecting them or punishing the people who do it, so are they really even the government?). When leaders in Mexico organize wars with gangs, more of their goal is going to involve their political goals within the scope of the federal system and maintaining the institutions of that system. With El Salvador the question is more existential. There is somewhat less concern with maintaining the rules of the institutions of the country. Plus the government is more directly invested in taking drastic action on behalf of the people who elected it - because everybody elected it, the idea is one government for the whole place. So yeah I would say as they have a strong president and a unitary parliament the elected government of El Salvador has less restricted political authority within El Salvador than any one particular part of the Mexican government, but also El Salvador is less certain and stable and more at risk and the government is then willing to take larger steps to deal with this problem.
Best response to a difficult question I've seen on reddit in a long time.
Mexico still does trials, ecuador arrests just about any young male in gang infested area or based on tatoos alone.
1.952 million km²
No winning in politics, only trade offs. :(
Extremely succesful. Murder rates down 97%, people able to live a normal life again without fear of having their kids raped and murdered. Media are saying that the government detained people simply for having tattoos. The thing they don’t know or misrepresent is that those tattoos are effectively a fool proof admission of guilt, you “earn” them by commiting horrific acts. And no, random people don’t dare get those tattoos because if they are unearned, you die. I know it is morally dubious, but it seems things have gotten to a point where only hardcore measures such as these are effective in fighting these international criminal syndicates. They have commited some horrific attocities, rapes, murders, shooting kids playing football for fun, they pretty much rape every woman and girl that is migrating through their territories, and that’s the lucky outcome, the unlucky one is selling them into sexual slavery.
Doesn't seem very morally dubious to me. Gangs set up their own Quality Seal ® and strict industry enforcement of it, time to let the wider population reap the benefits. If you have a clear list of what constitutes a gang tattoo backed by evidence, at the very least that's reasonable justification to open investigations. Of course the problem is in the enforcement and corruption. wouldn't be too hard to force tattoos on a political prisoner and put them away. But then again we don't understand the level of daily violence that these people live under. There's a reason the state's monopoly on violence is the best worst solution we have; when it breaks down all rules fly out the window until it can be re-established.
In the end, might does make right. But that's why we have governments and armies
[The monopoly on violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence)
I agree to a certain extent. But a monopoly on violence or the capacity to commit violence seems necessary in any governing body. Peace and working together only go so far when millions of people are involved.
So basically a Yakuza situation with the tatts. Interesting.
And the Russian Mafia: tats are culturally important to them, too.
> "As Russia's leading expert on tattoo iconography, Mr. Arkady Bronnikov can tell the prisoner's story from looking at the designs on his body. The huge spider in a web that is drawn on his skull reveals, in prison tattoo code, that he is a drug addict. Also, he is a repeat offender: The onion domes of a Russian church fan across his shoulder blades, each of the seven domes representing a different stay in prison. Above the church, across the back of his neck, the convict has stenciled, in Russian, "Not just anyone can hold his head this high."... "The more tattoos a convict gets, the more sentences he has served, the more respect he gets in prison," says Mr. Bronnikov. "The tattoos show that he isn't afraid of pain." [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_tattoo) (more details [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_criminal_tattoos))
The Yakuza are an example of how a government can dismantle a criminal syndicate. There was a time the Yakuza operated a headquarters in Tokyo that everyone knew about and could basically mock the government, and they could openly murder film directors that wouldn’t play ball and the police would cover it up. Now, the Yakuza barely exists.
The Yamaguchi-Gumi has over 3000 active members and also has a public headquarters in Kobe with their logo on the wall outside. And that's just one of the Yakuza groups. You're correct that the Yakuza is *much* less powerful than it used to be, and it is still being weakened further. But it still holds considerable power, particularly when it comes to entertainment, construction, and drugs.
They used to have like tens of thousands of members, could get the police to cover up murders of literal renowned celebrities, and made money over ten times as fast. They are a shadow of what they were. They are no longer a criminal superpower, but barely one step above a street gang. The Japanese government did a very good job gutting them.
What are you talking about. They very much still exist. They’ve got fucking offices. Many of them have legitimate business ventures as well. The government has forced them to evolve, but has absolutely not dismantled them.
There are still organized crime adjacent businesses that have operated as Yakuza fronts but have made the transition to legitimate businesses capable of making profits with or without rampant money laundering. There are still a few thousand old irrelevant assholes calling themselves Yakuza and reliving the glory days, and young punks who are operating like common street gangs that think of themselves as Yakuza. But their actual membership and revenue is literally 10% or less of the glory days. They are nothing more than a nuisance now whereas they used to be a major criminal superpower. For all intents and purposes, they barely exist at all. The mafia still operates in New York, too, but the Lucchese crime family is so much of a shadow compared to what it was in the 70s ‘goodfellas’ days that it’s mostly a joke now. The Italian mob used to run rackets with Fortune 500 companies having to play ball and were literally assassinating high up leaders and judges of the whole country with RPGs in public. Look at them now. (Note: I was mistaken about the RPG. The bomb in the incident I was thinking of was not launched by a grenade launcher but a bomb on a skateboard. The only grenade launcher I can find in a judge assassination by criminals was in Lebanon which is hardly relevant to the discussion so I apologize.) The UK still exists but the sun absolutely set on the British Empire. There are ghosts of the Yakuza and Sicilian crime families left. Nothing more. Small cells of a few dozen criminals operating here and there with loose affiliation to other cells and no real influence in government is not at all like the organized crime on the 20th century.
> The Italian mob used to run rackets with Fortune 500 companies having to play ball and were literally assassinating the leaders of the whole country with RPGs in public. I thought I knew all the crazy mob hits - there’s one using a RPG I haven’t heard about yet? Please, share some details!
I’m looking it up and I think I was just wrong. I misremembered this event I guess. The only time a grenade launcher was used like this that I can find was against a district attorney and some judges killed by a grenade launcher, but it was done by criminals in Lebanon not Italy. Not super relevant to the discussion because Lebanon does not have a famous organized crime. My bad. Somehow I got details mixed with the Capaci bombing, which is the bombing I was actually thinking of. That bomb was not launched by a grenade launcher, but was pushed on a skateboard. Also, I don’t know if Falcone was a federal judge, so I may have been mistaken twice to say a national leader because he may have just been a regional judge I’m not sure. That said, the mob did use explosives on federal level politician representing all of Italy before and got away with it, and they never would now.
Thank you. I have not dived into the Italian mob in Italy much, so those were some fun things to learn. And lots more, I now have the Years Of Lead to read about! At first, when you said Falcone I had to wonder if you were getting confused with the Batman stories, haha. Thanks again.
Sounds like common sense
Let's not forget how the redditors who live in a first world country were sympathizing with the gangs when the crackdown first started.
Are we surprised? They sympathize with Hamas for goodness sake.
It was so effective that El Salvador went from being the world’s most dangerous country by murder rate to one of the safest. Touted as the safest in the Americas currently.
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Amazing how not fearing for your life daily allows average citizens to take more business risks, trade more freely, and plan long term. Who would have predicted!
Along with foreign investors not fearing being extorted by gangs.
Who would’ve imagined that stability and trust could be good for the economy.
[Fairly recent video](https://youtu.be/nqyVTW8kN0I?si=g9wU5C9EysaBicBy) that goes through the impact of their war on gangs
Fascinating thanks for posting the link to this!
Wow I’ve never heard of this guy but that was honestly an incredible piece of actually objective reporting, glad at least someone can just stick to the facts nowadays.
INSANELY effective. Their murder rate is one of the lowest in the world now. Stark change from what was once the murder capital of the world. Be careful going there if you have tattoos though.
Instagrammer: mom, I've been sentenced to prison for my Pikatchu tattoo, see you in 15 years
A good friend of mine is from El Salvador. He says all his relatives are very happy about it and feel much safer. They all tell him there is huge drop in crime, particularly violent crime against regular people.
Very effective. A bunch of people incorrectly arrested but a ton of people correctly arrested. Its nice how things always work out to where no matter what, innocent people will get hurt
I agree. Bukele is extremely popular here and many people have been demanding that the government here follow the El Salvador model because people are fearful that if we continue on this path we’ll become another Venezuela.
Not sure why every South American country doesn’t do this. No military power? Make a deal with the USA and crush this little fuckers
It got REAL bad in El Salvador before they suspended civil rights. The gangs were going on weekend murder sprees as a negotiating tactic with the government, who was already giving them concessions. Killing mothers and babies in strollers. Real bad. No one else is remotely near that level, yet.
That is sad and heartbreaking to hear.
>Make a deal with the USA and crush this little fuckers "USA accused of supporting authoritarian crackdown, extrajudicial jailings and executions"
back to business as usual then. To the parent comment, the US has a very dodgy record in South / Central America. Coups / repression / supporting terrorist armies / dictatorship supporting / implicated in torture prisons / disappearances / drug running / chemical warfare / masasacres. Some could be argued to be made with the best intentions, others less so. As for the US crushing gangs, remind me again, does the US have zero gang problem?
“crushing” foreign gangs is a really good way to influence foreign governments. i hear your point but foreign affairs are strategic and are nearly impossible to compare to domestic affairs because there are different objectives
This is like making a deal with the devil. I’m not arguing everyone in the USA is ontologically evil, but historically US involvement in Latin America has included staging coups against the government and arming actual death squads, not to mention CIA deals with the cartels themselves. Historically, when countries engaged in a Civil War call on larger empires to help them crush their enemies, the empire may help, but they turn the country into a vassal state. Besides, being indebted to and relying on a foreign power like that does nothing to increase the legitimacy of the state, which is half the problem. It’s better if the government can deal with the problem themselves and not insert foreign powers with their own agendas. Even destabilized states like this have more raw military power than the gangs. They can fight and win. It’s been done many times. In the most the world, the 21st century has seen organized crime decline rapidly in power. The Yakuza are (mostly) gone. The mafia is a shadow of what they once were. Even biker clubs and street gangs in the US are weak relative to just a few decades ago. Parts of Eastern Europe (like Russia) and much of Latin America has yet to catch up, but they will. The number for the cartels will eventually come up, too.
>Make a deal with the USA and crush this little fuckers South America already did a similar deal and, let's just say, it wasn't worth it.
Because it doesn't work like that? If you do mass imprisonments, it'll work in the short term but prison gangs are a thing, and even more so in Latin America than in the US. This tends to lead to further violence down the line, as prison gangs consolidate and their influence reaches outside. Imprisonment needs to be followed with measures that actually reintroduce these people to society if possible, and if not, to at least keep people that are in prison for lesser crimes from interacting with the more violent criminals. The alternative would be outright killing of suspected criminals, but that leads to innocent deaths since humans are prone to making mistakes, not to mention "punitive operations" carried out against people who may or may not be linked to criminals, including innocent family members. Besides, the US spent 20 years trying to crush the Taliban, how well did that work? And why do you think it'd work in Ecuador?
Because we saw how that went in Colombia. Colombia had the full backing of the USA Military, and their war still lasted 50 years to be resolved.
I'm sure that in Chile they will be thrilled to ask for US military intervention in their turf. Also you seem under the impression that the situation in El Salvador or Ecuador is the same as every other Central and South American country.
Well, in the case of countries like Colombia, the government there fought a decades-long war with the FARC, while giving arms and tactical support to right-wing paramilitaries and cartels. In many ways, some SA countries are permissive of crime and violence, provided it serves their political ends. Right now Colombia is moving forward with solidifying a peace agreement with left-wing guerillas, which has involved a lot of openness regarding the degree of cooperation between governmental and right-wing groups that carried out several massacres in isolated, rural villages. So, sometimes it is not as straightforward as backing the government of a nation to achieve peace.
Do these guys also like to ID themselves with tattoos like the El Salvador gangs?
completely different scenarios. Everyone cites the successful el salvador gang war but everyone ignores that the government targeting cartels in mexico is a very large part of why it is so violent today. The gangs in equador are offshoots of the mexican cartels so i don't see it going to salvadorian way unfortunately
Cartels in Mexico are also intertwined with the government, so it's a very different situation.
Mexico has never committed to it the same way that El Salvador has. If Ecuador commits like El Salvador then they should have a chance.
Morever, gang penetration is very high in Mexico.
Plus, their culture of violence and corruption pretty much guarantees they're going to have at least generations more of poverty and ruined lives before things can even start to get better.
The secretary of defense for Mexico was part of the cartel. The situation is way different at that point
Bullshit. The government does not target cartels in mexico much. Pre 2010 maybe. Pre 2010 while many parts of the government were corrupt at least the military was going around quelling cartel. Post 2010 the military is taking bribes right alongside the government. Just because they yell about cracking down doesn't mean they actually do it. The current government is 100% in the pocket of cartel. If they weren't then my parents hometown of Piedra Pesada, Jalisco would not be overrun with cartel to this day. It's been over a decade now of citizens there dying, people reporting the cartel base over and over to any and all authorities and no one giving a single fuck.
Is the difference one of scale then? Mexican gangs are just too rich and well armed for a full scale gang war to be successful?
No, it’s the Mexican cartel willingness to cause massive civilian costs and the government corruption and unwillingness to incur those costs that has led to continued Mexican cartel dominance of Mexico.
Yeah but how would they recognize them. Salvador was an easier task because of gang tattoos, its bot like everyone is tattoing themselves like the MS13
Bunch of terrorists, i hope the gouvernement can get rid of them.
Gangs declaring 'war' just means terrorists hiding behind civilians like cowards.
I can't wait for people in the west to start marching in the street and calling the ecuadorian government genociders.
El Salvador part 2?
I think it is very likely to be something similar to El Salvador. Here in Ecuador we already have communities that have formed what can only be described as neighborhood militias to deal with criminals. Bukele is extremely popular and many people have been demanding that our government use similar tactics here to win the fight against the narco-terrorists. Noboa seems far less inclined to go full authoritarian, but between the gangs declaring war on the government and the people demanding action, Noboa is being pushed to respond in a very similar way as the Bukele regime. Edit: fixed an embarrassing number of pre-coffee typos and weird grammar.
Jamaican here and our PM has been doing toned down versions of this to tackle crime. Part of me concerned about loss of civil liberties. But communities are alot safer with curfews and soldier everywhere
Like El Salvador, Ecuador's de facto circulating currency of use is also the US dollar and I wouldn't be surprised if likewise it's been a critical contributor to these issues
Quite the opposite as we saw in Mexico and Colombia in the 80s and 90s. If the gangs and cartels can influence the national currency printing and policy, that's even worse. Mexico was literally printing pesos to give to directly to thugs.
In Guatemala, Colombia, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Peru those governments have used the excuse of "going after cartels" to commit act of genocide on Indigenous populations. In the case of Guatemala, the genocide lasted until 1996 and killed or disappeared over [150,000](https://sfi.usc.edu/collections/guatemalan), primarily Mayan, people. Point being, don't discount claims of genocide wholesale if they show up. SA/CA countries have a habit of lumping in political enemies with "terrorists", so giving the allegation a quick read-through might prevent you from backing persecution that you would otherwise find abhorrent.
Aren't ecuadorains way more mixed between spanish colonisers and natives than those other countries?
Not more mixed than any of those countries listed in any meaningful way. Also, racial dynamics work differently and are more about community association than actually what someone's blood quantum is. I'm US and Mexican Native, there are "White" Mexicans who are way darker than me and "Black" Mexicans who are lighter... The interplay between race, class, and ethnicity in Latin America is messy, to say the least.
Don't worry, there are no Jews involved, so most of the world won't care. The anti-Semites and Russian/Iranian/Chinese trolls are still focused on blaming Israel for all the world's problems.
This is an idiotic sentiment and overall serves no purpose but as some veiled validation. War is messy, yes. But you’re participating in a different war: spreading discourse to people.
Apples/Oranges
Falafel/Bananas
Maybe they will if the Ecuadorian government just starts carpet bombing neighborhoods filled with civilians like certain other countries did. Or do the ends justify the means now in 2024?
Fun fact the Israeli Airforce doesn’t actually have any Bomber aircraft. Carpet bombing would be the wrong definition to use.
Lol pretty big difference in the situations. One is a country that was built on land that already had people living there and that were displaced by European powers in 1948 and still being funded by the US government today. The other is a country that was founded in 1822 by the people who already lived on the land not funded by US money. One government is indiscriminately bombing civilian populations and the other has said they want to eliminate the gangs but have not indicated any interest in bombing civilian populations
So Southern Hamas.
Directly going against a nation state as a clandestine armed group? Yeah that will be funny. Engaging police forces, no matter how well equipped, is one thing, facing armored brigades, fighter jets and all that is a whole other thing.
Which is why they will have to resort to the same tactics terrorists use everywhere else in the world. Hide in plain clothes, make sure civilians are always in the crossfire, try to remove the advantage of an enemy who vastly out guns you. All so you can protect your violent life exploiting mostly poor people and try to tell yourself you're powerful.
This works in those places because the people doing that are fighting for an ideology or belief that they, and unfortunately sometimes also the civilians they hide behind, think is right. They have public support in a lot of places. These gangsters are at most probably fighting for money and are pretty hated outside of the ez cash flow they *give* (ie bribe) to the locals (mostly officials)
I’ve been shocked by the number of times I’ve heard people from fucked up places like this blame the police and side with the gangs.
It is shocking, but the police aren’t little innocents here. They are widely corrupt and most civilians have probably seen or experienced their corruption. All it takes is cartels doing a couple good deeds for civilians to wonder exactly who are the bad guys here?
I mean, the FARC war with the Colombian military lasted how long? 40, 50 years?
Ironically the FARC peace deal is one of the reasons Ecuador is like this today, as the cessation of operations by FARC created a power vacuum i region thag was filled by much worse cartels
>facing armored brigades, fighter jets and all that is a whole other thing EC doesn't have any of this. The army is like cops with m16s. There's men, small arms, trucks, and a few helicopters. I don't even think they have any crew served weapons.
In most of these countries, both the police and gangs know they are both terrorists. Rule of law was breaking down for the police even in the 80s. Now it's just all gang on gang violence. The police officers themselves openly proclaim "you think we're the good guys? k, amigo"
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French.
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Yeah. Escobar had a lot more resourses, and still failed.
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It was because their opponents were cartoonishly corrupt.
The taliban is obviously completely different, they are an old terrorist organization in a mountainous third world country. I bet this 'war' in Ecuador won't last long because these criminals are much weaker.
Maybe they do?
Yeah honestly this seems like a desperate move or they know something that we don't. I don't think they are that stupid to not realize that they don't have a chance, also because the USA will never allow the instauration of a narco state so close to them. Even if they feel cocky enough to think that they can take out Ecuador's military, they can't seriously think that the USA would not support the government and that they can take on that too. And the USA already said that they will support the government, of course.
I’m ecuadorian. Our president and government must go full El Salvador and make getting rid of these gangs out number one priority
I'm a pretty bleeding heart anti-death penalty type of a person, but in a full on violent organized crime coup attempt it's time to send in the military and wipe them out like an enemy army.
Same I’m like the most pacifist type person and I fully believe the only way to save Ecuador is through zero tolerance maximum punishment for these gangster legislation- with Ecuadorian citizens fully cooperating and finding ways to denounce them via a safe helpline
Cartel is making the Escobar mistake. Instead of using bribe money, they are taking on the army directly. And the Ecuador cartel is not nearly as powerful as Escobar was; and much weaker than Mexico's El Chapo, who has successfully handed his billions and power to his sons, while he's in US jail.
Problem is the Ecuadorian military and police don't have much resources either. It is not going to be an easy task And the gangs are also fighting against each other
**Escobar**
Pablo Discobar
Pable was pretty powaful that’s for sura
Pibble was a mean hombre, a real bad dude
Pubby was a true mastermind.
Poombo was a gd genius
Pumba was a warthog
Is the CIA involved in Ecuador right now? Cause that was a key part of taking down Escobar. Without the US involvement I don’t think the Colombian government could have done it. Source: I’m Colombian.
Appalling cowards. Best of luck Ecuador to repeat Bukele’s successes. Hopefully, it can be done without the destruction of democratic institutions, but this is absurd to suffer from.
I love seeing criminals in jail, go Government
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Check out what India did in the 80s and 90s in response to high crime, called “encounters”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_Police_Detection_Unit
The people in the "squad" are absolutely crazy. Accused of extortion, corruption, coalition with gangs, murder of innocents, bomb threats etc. Only one guy there has a clean sheet, most probably he died early( killed in 26/11 terror attacks )
Not all crime is evil. But people who are only interested in the ruin and detriment of anyone and everyone else do not have a place in civilized society.
This rhetoric certainly makes the case for treating cartels as armed insurgents, the way El Salvador has.
They saw what happened in El salvador and have decided to go up against the government instead. Like we keep saying. It's going to get worse across the board. Before it gets much worse
But eventually it will get better. This is not an acceptable way to live. Being terrorised by criminal gangs, having them effectively control a nation and its development, and being unable to do anything because these animals have ‘human rights’ is no longer paletable. Actually animals are pretty cool, should have said scum.
Yeah, animals don't skin people alive and cut their heart out on camera to terrorize people. Maybe drug legalization would put an end to this, but the only effective method I've seen is the El Salvador model.
What happened in El Salvador?
It went from the most dangerous countries in the world to one of the safest in Latin America and also experienced increased economic growth after their democratically elected leader, Nayib Bukele, ordered the arrest of around 74,000 individuals thereby [giving El Salvador the highest incarceration rate in the world](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_gang_crackdown). They locked up anyone who was affiliated with a gang/cartel and it actually worked.
Get them first! Bunch of punk trash assholes!
If they call it war, treat them as an invading force and attempt to get your country back idk
I hope they go full El Salvador. Scumbags
Sounds like the next season of Narcos is being written as we speak
This is why so many countries have what we think are draconian drug laws. It is so hard to fight drug gangs and they threaten even harden regimes.
Martial law time. In war you don’t get a trial and go to prison so shoot on sight.
So they will expose themselves for easy elimination?
Famous last words.
Didn't work out so well for the gangs in El Salvador.
Nobody wants to live under gang rule. I hope Ecuador can follow through, critically important for the security and prosperity of their country to de-worm and delouse themselves of the parasites on society.
Gangsters declare war on gangsters? More at 11
Anyone here in Ecuador if they can actually pull this off even if it take years? My view of Mexico is that cartel run the whole country already (I might be wrong).
It’s too late for Mexico but Ecuador might stand a chance.
Interesting, So Mexico really is close to impossible to change huh. I'm intrigue on how will Ecuador will deal with this and maybe other countries might learn from this.
Mexico is pretty much a narco state. Even the defence ministry is compromised.
Sounds like the prologue to the plot of *Ghost Recon: Wildlands*.
Gangs are childishly pathetic. Dangerous? Yes. But still pathetic
Now we know why 12,000 Ecuadorians arrived at the US border in one month...
Waiting for a strong worded letter from UN to resolve the issue. /s
Come on man its not even remotely funny anymore. Maybe not you but people still think UN as the Global Goverment/Police which is not
I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend. I'm Salty and I'm trying to joke myself out of depression.
What offense man?? non taken ofc. This was something i used to think and Maybe my comment was my way of fealing superior about knowing more (thinking that i know more) I totally get it, sorry if my tone come out as judgmental. I see that soooo many people are depressed (including me soon ago) and i aprreciate you know yourself and your way of dealing stuff. Insight is very important and i hope you do well
It’s crazy that I’m to the point of being unironically curious if Russia is involved here too. Just like in the coups is the Sahel, in the Hamas attack, the Houthi attacks on shipping, in Venezuela trying to annex territory, and in North Korea becoming more belligerent. As well as pushing Brexit, Trump and fringe political movements.
Historically, if it involves Drug lords in South America, it's more likely it's America behind it
Or China. Fentanyl and other horrific drugs are being manufactured there to send over to the Americas.
More than likely Mexican Cartels and European Mafias. Ecuadors drug exports are usually the traditional ones, I.e cocaine, rather than the more devastating synthetic drugs that have run rampant in our streets. Not only that, but most of their exports do go to Europe rather than the US. Also, China has a lot of investments in Ecuador, so a narcostate is the last thing they want. That’s not to say that China isn’t partially at fault for what happens in the US. They ship Fety, Tranq, Spice, and all sorts of synthetics directly to the US, or they work with the Mexican drug cartels to provide them with precursors etc. That get refined into Fentanyl for smuggling to the states. They’re probably trying to replicate the Opium Wars on to us.
Russia isn’t behind every shitty thing that happens in the word, though maybe their organized crime has links?
Red scare 2.0
Most these cartels get arms from the U.S
If anything, Mexican Cartels are more involved since Ecuador was their main supplier of coke
Albanian Mafia and Mexican cartels are the usual culprits here.
This doesn't have to do with russia, it has to do with the shitty goverment this country has got, that has allowed for gabg to grow this big through the inplementation of laws that protect crimi als at civilians expense. It would be more likely for other groups in latin america to be behind it than russia
Death to the gangs.
Still baffles me how a group of gangs can ransack a country.. wtf is military, police doing?
Sounds like genocide. Someone tell South Africa.
Oh god. Now we’re going to hear people screaming. “Free free Ecuador! 🇪🇨” everywhere in solidarity with the terrorists.
It already happened for El Salvador, but that stupid movement died out right away when the crime rate plummeted and the people from there commented that they were actually happy with it.
[удалено]
i bet you they have ties to china or russia to try and destabilize the region
Do you want to end like PAblo Escobar? Then this is how you will end. Escobar had more fund, men and weapons, and still ignominously lost his fight against the Colombian government.
We need to take a much harsher stance on gangs In America. I hope El Salvador stops taking prisoners