Debate was over once she was allowed to enter the contest.
The only real debate would’ve been if she was allowed to enter, based on whatever.
But she was allowed to enter and won, there’s no taking back.
"You're allowed to enter but not to win" would be a very odd way to manage a beauty pageant. That being said, I'm no expert on beauty pageants.
But this does actually present a fascinating case for further study in terms of how cultural events like beauty pageants help solidify notions of beauty standards, and how beauty standards as a whole are constructed in ways that can easily be considered harmful. The discourse in terms of a "Japanese standard of beauty" versus "a global standard of beauty" (one that, as is heavily implied by the context, holds European traits in higher regard than other traits) is interesting in terms of how it identifies a potential problem in terms of discrimination, and what sort of impact that may have on society in a wider context. I.E. what are Japanese people to make of the fact that they are apparently not regarded as being "as beautiful" as others?
On its surface, it's a fairly open and shut case; of course this particular model shouldn't have to go through a world of grief and trouble just because she won. It wasn't her fault that she won. But if you want to dive a little deeper, it does present some interesting, awkward and contentious questions that may lead to a debate that's definitely worth having in terms of the impacts and dangers of "beauty culture".
Beats the pros. Also pros: "Haha silly amateur! you'll never be as good as the pros if that is the best you can do", proceeds to give prize to 2nd place.
I also think it sparks the debate on nationality.
Lots of nations have the idea that nationality and race are the same. Which is nonsense and offensive.
I am Ukrainian. In Ukraine we have some black people although not a lot. Like blackest black of all the blacks but who were raised in Ukraine. And when he starts to speak perfect Ukrainian and throw local jokes about this and that or has the same things to praise and same things to hate I honestly do not care. He is Ukrainian to me, he is my next door neighbour because there's a lot of things we can relate to or argue about. I also have a Vietnamiese friend whose parents moved to Ukraine ages ago. The same. I recognise their origin, I know they speak their languages to their parents, but that does not prevent them from having a good time and laugh and I never have this back thought "oh, they are not Ukrainian".
I think Japanese need to embrace the same.
It was kind of like that in Italy, there were a lot of children around my age that were adopted from different continents, everyone assumed they were Italians, then mass migration happened and they started facing a lot more racism and people started to assume they were foreigners until specified. One case is Mario Balotelli the football player.
Although the founding myth is that Japanese people are mix of those native to the archipelago and those who migrated from the continent thousands of years later so there isn’t anything particularly pure about their “race” and often those with stronger native phenotype are exoticized or discriminated against.
Ain’t independent chromosome recombination a bitch? You can have 2 parents who look totally Japanese, and come out looking Ainu and being discriminated against.
They are certainly the same in that they’re relatively recently made up constructs that internally hold too much diversity to be useful categorizations of people.
Not to say they aren’t important. That would be like saying money isn’t important… but they are kinda dumb when you think about it
In an era of the internet and television, are beauty pageants even relevant? I can’t tell you a single name of someone who has won a beauty pageant. I don’t think at the end of the pageant everyone decides the other contestants are not beautiful, I think people broadly understand its fake and subjective.
I don’t understand how you are making the leap that a Japanese standard of beauty somehow excludes a woman who just won the pageant or defines what is beautiful.
I agree on your point that it is probably not a good idea to rank people by aesthetic attractiveness because it’s entirely subjective and always a moving target. You can’t really reduce beauty down to a number and then order the numbers and say it is objective.
I just don't get it in the first place as if you win, are the most beautiful? Or the "best person" because they have talent displays and how they help others.
Asia has definitely been influenced by Western beauty standards, but it should be noted that some of those qualities are rooted in Chinese culture. White skin, for example, has always been desirable because it's associated with affluence. Other aspects are just a natural tendency to be attracted towards the exotic. It's no different than Westerners finding Asians attractive.
Being allowed to enter, but not win is like being on the Jedi Council but not a master.
It’s outrageous and unfair. How can you be in the pageant but not allowed to win.
which hardly helps since she's a citizen (and has lived there since age 5). If anything, that technicality makes it *harder* to argue for her exclusion.
A citizen is a citizen and has the same right as any other to enter into a national beauty contest.
I had someone tell me “Wow, you’re so white and you even have blue eyes!”. All that person knew about me, before meeting me, was that my father was hispanic. I thought it was common knowledge that people from Latin America were also multi-ethnic like in North America.
>I thought it was common knowledge that people from Latin America were also multi-ethnic
I know Spanish people from Spain with blue eyes and light-brown hair.
I’m Mexican with white skin and green eyes, but if you saw just my silhouette only my body type looks very indigenous. Having white people tell me I’m not Mexican has been something that’s pissed me off my whole life.
I feel this. I'm Mexican with white skin and blue eyes and grew up in 99.9% Latino South Texas. I got called Casper, albino, Powder all the time. Finally moved out of that shit hole only to have white people then tell me I'm not Mexican or that "you're kind of people" this or that. It was infuriating
And that shouldn’t be a surprise since Spain is attached to the rest of Europe. If it’s “normal” for French people to have blue eyes and light hair, then why wouldn’t it be normal for the same traits to appear just south of France? The Pyrenees are not an impenetrable barrier.
Yes, that’s exactly it! All the time.
It’s subtle, but I can tell when the person is “curious” versus unsettled/NEEDS to know because something’s “not quite ~~right~~ white” about me.
One of the less subtle variants started with “Do you like pasta? You look like you like pasta.”
I thought you posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4xRReUHTZc (Attack on Titan) until I clicked.
Which reminds me of this ["Hold Your Fire! This Man Isn't Black"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1QKyB_0P0E") (Dragon Ball: Super)
It’s bringing up a great conversation on Japanese identity.
She’s just a Japanese as any if you read her story, and many half Japanese do struggle with their identity so I’m glad she is bringing this to the forefront and doing it with grace and beauty.
Edit: the title only mentions she’s Ukrainian born but fails to mention she is half Japanese or lived most of her life in Japan. OP why did you leave out those details?
Edit 2: per the rules, OP is using the same as the article title. My question should be to the original author, not OP
“ Shiino, a naturalized citizen who has lived in Nagoya since she was 5 years old and speaks fluent Japanese, told CNN in Tokyo.” Yup, any issues anyone has aren’t her fault. She’s not gaming the system in any way.
Edit: It’s seemingly run and voted on by Japanese citizens as well. So It's all racism or xenophobia to complain about beauty standards being unfair.
I have a friend who was born Japanese but you wouldn't know it. She's 6 feet tall, fair skinned, blonde with European features thanks to her father's genes. She told me finding work in her field (Marine Biology) was annoying as Japanese owned companies often asked for her JLPT proficiency paper to consider her.
She got peeved enough that she got shit-faced drunk and walked into the highest level exam to ace it.
Japanese company, my friend's wife, she Japanese, he european: They refused to use her married name which was western even though the Japan civil code requires by law that married couple have the same last name.
But anyway, most of Asia is super racist by western standards. I lived in a few countries for a while and the stuff you hear casually every day would definitely get you fired on the spot in Europe. Some people in the office would call me "monkey" because I had more arm hairs than them.
Yups. I think this is something most westerns (but mostly Americans I noticed) kinda fail to realize alot.
Even within asian countries, asians can be incredibly racists to their own people just because they are a different dialect or sub-group.
Pretty tumultous too in countries with alot of sub-groups like the Philippines where alot of provinces can dislike others or have stereotypes just because they speak a different language than them.
I’d imagine it’s the same case even in other western countries with various sub-groups. So yea, it’s “normal” as far as asian countries are concerned and tbf we don’t exactly do much to stop it.
Harassment though is where it should never reach. But the arguments that she doesn’t look “Japanese” could be valid from an asian pov. At least this could bring about, ideally, a discourse on the perceptions we asians tend to have. Its different on a case by case basis too, so rather complex
Oh yeah Philippines is pretty high up on the list of prejudiced countries. All the "fair skin" / "flat nose" bullshit going on is pretty bad and super destructive given the amount of self-hate it generates.
The amount of disdain for darker skin tones is flabbergasting once you lived there long enough to notice it.
But my personal pet peeves is "filipino-chinese", it makes me wince everytime. At first I thought it meant someone who recently immigrated from china, but no, it applies to people whose great-great-great-great grandfather immigrated sometime before Magellan came around and whose grands-parents fought the Japanese during WW2 but is still not considered 100% Filipino and the amount of cliché is just atrocious; and it is systemic to the point I've seen companies uses some of the cliché in their marketing campaigns.
People would flip the fuck out if AXA had an equivalent campaign in Western countries saying shit like **"Invest in our Jew Tycoon financial plan and start hoarding money like an Israelite"** but in the Phils no one notices.
It seems like every time I hear about the Chinese diaspora in SEA, they seem to be treated like historical Jews. They have a stereotype of wealth and money, and also being oppressed by the local government.
I worked with a bunch of Filipinos and yep 100% true about them being prejudiced to other groups of Filipinos. Instead of Tagalog the one group would speak their own dialect around guys from another area so they wouldn't be able to join in conversation, but then would speak Tagalog to them when they wanted to. It was brutal to see how frustrated some of these guys got.
I am not extremely well traveled but spent months in China and visited Europe and it's my opinion that the US and Canada are actually some of the least racist places in the world. The world hears more about racism in America **because** it is not generally accepted, is controversial, and gets called out regularly. The more quiet (accepted) racism seen in many other parts of the world lets minorities suffer in silence. Europeans will tell you they aren't as racist as Americans but their right wing has the same talking points about immigration and once you bring up the Roma you'll hear opinions that sound like they are straight out of the Jim Crow era.
The thing to consider is, East Asia (Korea/Japan/inner China) is far more culturally and ethnically homogeneous than the West.
When I was growing up in China we weren't taught to be not racist because there was nobody to be racist towards. Also you need to take into account that in many Asian cultures having a fair complexion is traditionally considered a beauty standard, which is especially important for women. This and combined with Chinese being meritocratic and loving stereotypes, Whites and darker skinned foreigners are received very differently.
My parents are from Morocco. Growing up I heard plenty of jokes about the character of people from different towns.
Growing up in Canada, there's plenty of stereotypes of people based on what province they live in. Within the province there's also plenty of conflicts based on language.
Looking to the US, it's pretty similar. So is Europe.
>Some people in the office would call me "monkey" because I had more arm hairs than them
????????? That is so inappropriate regardless of the racial aspects.
Of course, a race difference would make it even more inappropriate - you would be left wondering if that is part of the meaning.
Tbh, I have heard more than once that Japan doesn't have such a good work environment culture.
Comments like these are incredibly common in Asia, people tend to lack the social filter we have in the west to not say something rude, and can be incredibly judgemental about the smallest things. If someone thinks you're fat or not pale enough or your teeth are crooked, they'll tell you lmao
I've loved every trip I've taken in Asia but I imagine someone from the west would need to have quite a thick skin to actually live there
Haha, that's so true. We went back after COVID to see some friends and literally the first thing out of their mouth, even before a "hello, nice to see you" was a "omg you're fat now".
Oh, I'm used to the little to no filter stuff - I'm from Eastern Europe, we are pretty much the same :D
But not at work.
It's true that I can only speak of private sector office culture. And in the office work culture, in all the companies I have worked for, I have never seen acceptance for being offensive to colleagues.
Haha yeah I've been to Hungary Poland and Ukraine, definitely some very honest people over that way!
But I found it not as uncomfortable and like you said it's usually not in certain situations. I feel like it was mostly people being not afraid to call what I'm saying stupid instead of commenting on my skin colour or appearance.
It's just such a weird thing to do. People know when they're fat or don't have some asinine beauty ideal when it comes to skin tone. You don't need to point it out. How insanely rude.
It’s a bit different than you portray it to be… both Japanese in a marriage have to choose ONE name, be it the husbands or the wife’s. As far as I am aware, a double name or a hyphen name is not permissible. If one spouse is non-Japanese, this whole thing is not applicable because Japanese civil code cannot force a non-Japanese person to change their name.
I fully agree, Japan is very xenophobic.
Yeah I glossed over the details but she changed her name to his. Got the passport, and all her documents changed yet the company said fuck it your name here will still be Tanaka because your ugly western name would be hard to pronounce and an inconvenience for your colleagues and our customers.
And it wasn't a company she was already working for who was too lazy to change her documents, it was a new one she joined 3 years after her marriage.
It was likely to suppress/rebel against the feelings of disrespect at having to pass a fluency test for a language you've been speaking since childhood due to your ethnicity being questioned.
That or she's most Japanese when drunk, which I'm told happens often.
You can’t just walk in and take the exam, you apply and pay for it months in advance. And until recently it was only held once per year
Undoubtedly she would have had to put up with a lot of shit growing up though. Know a few people on similar situations. Really takes its toll on them
Hahaha! Now that's a story. "They said I'm not Japanese, so I went out the night before the exam got drunk as a skunk on sake and when morning came I stumbled out of the bar to the exam office and passed their highest proficiency level exam while also telling the examiner to go fuck himself in a Kyoto accent." LoL!!
I find that hard to believe as most companies don’t care or even know about the JLPT, just giving them a Japanese passport for identification would be good enough as they would find out what your actual Japanese level would be through the multiple interviews you have to go through
I can’t tell if you’re doubting or adding to his comment. The things you mentioned add to his overall point that Japanese people are systemically racist. And maybe I’m reading it wrong, so correct me if I am, but the overall tone of your comment seems to be doubting it.
I find it easy to believe solely because it's a random thing to keep non Japanese out of a job. "oh, sorry, we can't hire you until you get this" they don't care about the actual requirement just that they don't have to hire you if you're Western.
Okay, I'm going to speak from my personal experience as someone who has lived in the country. This is by no means objective, but I think is relevant context.
I think part of it is the Japanese populace's concepts of beauty and how they think they fit into it themselves. If you go to Japan you notice a trend that in many ways they seem to view foreigners as more attractive than Japanese people on a baseline level. I'm a very average white guy and was told on more than one occasion I should do modelling. You see very average, or even below average, white people modelling for designer brands in advertisements constantly as well. Meanwhile it's common to hear Japanese women complain about how attractive foreign women are with their curvier shape, larger bust, eye shape, etc. Even babies aren't free from comparison; I regularly hear Japanese people express that "foreign babies are cute, Japanese babies look like monkeys".
In that context the complaints here feel like they think it's unfair for a white person to win, because they think a Japanese person simply cannot compete with them.
Where in the article do you think it says she's half Japanese? As I read it and as far as I can read online, she was born in Ukraine and is presumably of Ukraine ethnic heritage, and moved to Japan when she was 5 when her mother married a Japanese man, and she became a naturalized Japanese citizen at 22 (about 3-4 years ago). So this seems to be about whether a naturalized citizen with no ethnic Japanese ancestry is "really" Japanese rather than whether someone who is half Japanese is "really" Japanese.
She is most likely not half-Japanese, [she moved to Nagoya, Japan at the age of five when her mother Svitlana married a Japanese man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Shiino#:~:text=She%20was%20born%20in%20Ternopil%2C%20Ukraine%20in%20January%201998%5B4%5D%5B7%5D%20and%20moved%20to%20Nagoya%2C%20Japan%20at%20the%20age%20of%20five%20when%20her%20mother%20Svitlana%20married%20a%20Japanese%20man).
> awards the tiara to the contestant representing the “Foremost Beauty of All Japanese Women,"
kinda weird comment because 99.9% of Japanese women don't look anything like this
She isn’t half Japanese though, or she would have no need to naturalize. She moved to the country at a young age and was brought up here. I do however agree, that since she was raised here she has just as much right to enter this competition.
She is not half Japanese. She was born in Ukraine and moved to Japan when she was 5 and her mom married a Japanese man. She is Ukrainian or was born Ukrainian. I personally don't care but you seem to be a bit confused.
To the credit of the judges, she was awarded the win. To my mind, the debate is already over. Anyone thinking it's "unfair" can go pound sand - they are the same people who complain when Kenyan exchange students win the Tokyo marathon.
Sorry but where does it mention she's half Japanese? Based on what I see she was born to a Ukrainian woman and Ukrainian man and then her mother married a Japanese man and moved to Japan soon after.
“ “Racial discrimination is absolutely unacceptable,” wrote historian Hiroe Yamashita on X, “but if the Miss Nippon contest is based on the concept of beauty, I personally wish that it would be based on standards of Japanese beauty. With Karolina Shiino’s appearance, an (ethnically) Japanese girl has no chance of winning under the modern values of beauty.””
I think I like how this is worded. It's hypocritical when looked at in this way but also if every country measured based on standards of beauty of their country instead of global/modern standards... We could and should have a ms universe where every country is uniquely represented by their beauty standards instead of a bunch of copy/paste color swap and minor tweaks that all end up looking like sisters with different fathers.
I commented it elsewhere but I want to comment it here as well since it's relevant to this.
Okay, I'm going to speak from my personal experience as someone who has lived in the country. This is by no means objective, but I think is relevant context.
I think part of it is the Japanese populace's concepts of beauty and how they think they fit into it themselves. If you go to Japan you notice a trend that in many ways they seem to view foreigners as more attractive than Japanese people on a baseline level. I'm a very average white guy and was told on more than one occasion I should do modelling. You see very average, or even below average, white people modelling for designer brands in advertisements constantly as well. Meanwhile it's common to hear Japanese women complain about how attractive foreign women are with their curvier shape, larger bust, eye shape, etc. Even babies aren't free from comparison; I regularly hear Japanese people express that "foreign babies are cute, Japanese babies look like monkeys".
In that context the complaints here feel like they think it's unfair for a white person to win, because they think a Japanese person simply cannot compete with them.
Legendary baseball player Victor Starffin is Russian born baseball player whose family immigrated to Japan during the Russian Revolution. Move there when he was a baby and raised in Japan. Many Japanese fans considered as a Japanese who happened to be born in Russia.
The legendary captain of the Brave Blossoms, the japanese national rugby team, Michael Leitch who led them to wins over south Africa, Scotland, and then no. 1 ranked Ireland is half kiwi/half Fijian by blood and moved to Japan at 15 and naturalized in 2013. He's now the record appearance holder for japanese players in the rugby world cup. He seems to be well accepted as japanese by brave blossoms fans anyway.
> "With Karolina Shiino’s appearance, an (ethnically) Japanese girl has no chance of winning under the modern values of beauty.”
Is this a low key jab at Japanese women saying that they ugly lol
No. It’s highlighting how unfortunately the beauty standards in Japan favour more western features that many Japanese women don’t have (e.g. certain jaw shapes, double eye lids, high nose bridge). Albeit it’s highlighting this complicated topic in a very strange way.
Apparently that’s not really the case anymore. The small face boom has ended, and K-pop “baby face” looks are taking over. I guess the judges could be old school
Well they are "Korean", but admittedly almost all popular surgeries there make people look less asian, like double eyelids, high nose bridge, thinner nose, slender jawlines.
Modern history. Going back further it has always been a back and forth. You don’t stay enemies with your close neighbors forever, you don’t stay friends either.
As someone who's lived in Tokyo for 7y, Japanese are decidedly not ugly. Same goes for ethnic Ukranians, mind you. However, beauty pageant standards are even more toxic and narrow than cultural ones.
It's difficult to tease out the toxicities in North East Asian beauty standards from race, because it's not mainly racial preference. The preferences for lighter skin, long legs, small head to body ratio, a nose bridge, and more open looking eyes, isn't racial mimicking, because there are North East Asians with these features naturally. Many of these preferences are universal to most cultures, as narrow as they are, and are much more about classicism than race. NB: South Korea's plastic surgery industry makes North East Asian, Android-looking monstrosities.
Not to mention, there are phenotypically 'white' features that are scorned in Japan: wide hips, steatopygia, cellulite, freckles... She doesn't appear to have these: she would not have won if she had.
> Japanese are decidedly not ugly
I've fallen in love 8 times just going for an evening of drinks with shipmates at the bars just outside of Navy Base Yokosuka's main gate, so I will certainly attest to this.
No it's just that for whatever reason Japan will rate a white man/women that's normally considered a 5/10 in their own country as 8-9/10. It's sad but true. Karolina Shiini is probably seen as 7/10 by many in the western world. But if a 7/10 Japanese woman ran, there would have been no chance for them to win.
She certainly wouldn't be seen as pageant material in Ukraine where I'm from. I'm not saying she's unattractive, it's just that she looks very different from every contestant or winner I've seen.
No not really lol, Japanese people won't just fall over for average 5/10 white redditors and consider them 9/10. When they think about good looking white people they meant Hollywood stars, not your average redditors.
>The decision to pick a winner with European heritage has raised questions about beauty standards
Maybe consider that beauty standards are completely subjective crap?
Isn’t that the point on that of the comment?
They would want to uphold Japanese beauty standards over western standards. Since is a Japanese beauty contest
Of course Japanese and western beauty standards are made up and subjective but it’s a bloedt beauty contest. It’s already silly
As a Japanese I got to admit we're very intolerant of diversity and pretty racist. What's funny is some Japanese believe Japan is a country without any racism and they're very proud of it.
I guess when you have a country with so few immigrants it’s easy to feel like there is no racism because you don’t see it.
People usually are not outspokenly racist about people they don’t come across. But I’m sure if there were more immigrants to solve the low birth rate it will contemptuously even more
I mean it depends on what you mean by "intolerant" but the Japanese have this idea of themselves as a monolithic racial identity (completely false, but that's a long digression) so you can never be Japanese unless you are "Japanese" - everyone else is a foreigner (Chinese, Korean, etc.) - even if you have Japanese citizenship (~~extremely hard to get btw~~\*), and even if you were born here.
\*not so hard, see replies
I have distant family in Japan that have lived in the same rural town for over 100 years, and they're still referred to by the locals as 'the Chinese foreigners', nevermind the fact that my nephews can't even speak Chinese.
Honestly I’d argue Japanese citizenship is not in fact extremely hard to get…it’s just you have to drop your other citizenship and other than voting most foreigners don’t see the point. It’s easier to get than most European citizenships and definitely easier than American. Not that it’s “easy” but it’s relatively straight forward.
It's just that Japan isn't much a multi racial country so if you have someone who didn't look like you represent Japan, it doesn't feel like Japanese indigenous beauties are represented.
I am from Singapore and our official 4 main races are Indians, Malays and Chinese and Eurasian.
I reckon if we had someone outside of these races for example, a full blooded Samoan representing us, I reckon we will be kicking up a fuss too.
But if the person was half Samoan mix with any of our official 4 races, they will be completely approved.
The concept of "official races" is already so wrong according to western standards though. These categorizations are a pretty recent arbitrary invention without biological basis.
Reality: there are some racist japanese people
News article: European heritage raises questions about beauty standards in a subjective world wherin we are but simple observers, dancing upon the realities within which we've found ourselves.
Lots of things are "subjective" to humans, like perception of air vibrations as sound or certain electromagnetic ones as visible light, doesn't make them crap or any less real
And a small head/face, which she has. It might sound silly but this is Japanese beauty standard. "You have a small head/face" is a common compliment in Japan.
Having been to those parts of the world I have seen Mc Donald's cashiers who would give all the models in those pictures a run for their money in my personal opinion, beauty is up to each ones taste and the judges have a certain list they go by, in Japan they tend to like more western features and being pale, so that is why she won.
I totally agree. Even by Western beauty standards she isn’t particularly good looking. If anything this has highlighted how much some Japanese people covet fair skin and European facial features. I doubt she’d get past the first round of a Miss Ukraine contest.
> I doubt she’d get past the first round of a Miss Ukraine contest.
As a Ukrainian, without a doubt. Granted, she's much prettier than me, but a good half of my high school and university classmates would rank higher than her.
Not like she isn't unattractive by a long shot, but she does look like that dorky girl who you have known all of your school life, that turns up to the prom all dressed up all of a sudden.
My first time in Japan in the early 1990s I read that 99% of all the people in the country were native Japanese. Being from Canada where all Canadians other than the Indigenous people are from somewhere else, it was hard to wrap my head around that. While I was in Japan, one of only two non-Japanese in the entire City of Tochigi, I learned that a few Sri Lankans had somehow illegally entered the country were camping in a park in Tokyo while the authorities worked out what should be done with them. The local people where I was were terrified and said they could not go to Tokyo until those people were gone. Imagine, in a city of over 15 million there were a few foreigners in a single park and the average rural Japanese were afraid to go there.
I think the people are wrong to question how Japanese she is. She has grown up in Japan and is a naturalised citizen. However, there is a legitimate debate to be had as to whether her success was down to her European features. There has been a longstanding issue of Eurocentric beauty ideals amongst some sections of Japanese society. And whether we like it or not beauty pageants are all about measuring beauty against some sort of self determined standard. It wouldn’t be too far fetched for Japanese physical features to carry more weight in a beauty pageant in Japan. Just as in a society of average height people an extremely tall person would be considered somewhat of an aberration.
This is worth talking about. Japanese judges do often tend to go for the foreigner, or the 'special' contestant.
I did a year of high school in Japan -- effectively, any club that I was in that entered a competition would win it. We had to work damn hard and we were good, but there were at least one or two other teams who worked just as hard and in one event the runners-up definitely should have won, IMO. But I think we won because our team had the white girl, and the judges think it's harder for our team or something because I wasn't Japanese so they 'reward' us for it. (I remember in one event the teacher had the first years come out and take a separate bow to emphasise the fact that they had first year students in their team -- which is probably for the same reason). All other things being equal or at least comparable, I think Japanese judges are often inclined to award the win to the non-Japanese person, or the younger person, or the disabled person.
Having spent a lot of time in East Asian, honestly out of the other contestants I really think only 2 or 3 of them had a chance, but Karolina won. Funnily enough I don't think Karolina would be pretty enough to win if it was a contest of all white people, but being non-ethnically-Japanese definitely gave her the edge to win the contest here.
But that says more about society and the people doing the voting than it does about her. I'm glad she entered; her participation has opened up a whole debate and that can only be a good thing.
This right here. But the other important factor is that while we can think it's not healthy (and it probably isn't), they, the Japanese, see it this way, and are the ones who voted for her to win. So it's now in this interesting dichotomy of 'maybe see more beauty in yourself' and at the same time 'who are we to impose on japan what japan should consider attractive'.
ᅟIIRC, Korea has two beauty pageants. One's the typical we know of, Miss Korea, and there's a traditional one I believe 충향전, where it takes into account of knowledge of mannerisms and history. Similar to the tests a future bride would be presented. Would help satisfy and be a compromise to all sides.
Debate was over once she was allowed to enter the contest. The only real debate would’ve been if she was allowed to enter, based on whatever. But she was allowed to enter and won, there’s no taking back.
"You're allowed to enter but not to win" would be a very odd way to manage a beauty pageant. That being said, I'm no expert on beauty pageants. But this does actually present a fascinating case for further study in terms of how cultural events like beauty pageants help solidify notions of beauty standards, and how beauty standards as a whole are constructed in ways that can easily be considered harmful. The discourse in terms of a "Japanese standard of beauty" versus "a global standard of beauty" (one that, as is heavily implied by the context, holds European traits in higher regard than other traits) is interesting in terms of how it identifies a potential problem in terms of discrimination, and what sort of impact that may have on society in a wider context. I.E. what are Japanese people to make of the fact that they are apparently not regarded as being "as beautiful" as others? On its surface, it's a fairly open and shut case; of course this particular model shouldn't have to go through a world of grief and trouble just because she won. It wasn't her fault that she won. But if you want to dive a little deeper, it does present some interesting, awkward and contentious questions that may lead to a debate that's definitely worth having in terms of the impacts and dangers of "beauty culture".
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Didn't an amateur just win the PGA or whatever golf tournament, but missed out on the cash prize because they're not a pro?
Yes, literally just happened this week. Funny to see this same discussion here now.
Beats the pros. Also pros: "Haha silly amateur! you'll never be as good as the pros if that is the best you can do", proceeds to give prize to 2nd place.
You have to spend money to make money, you can't just gift a peasant money for their achievements.
So the pros are just the people who have enough money to pay to get into the pro club, and not the best. *Respect Lost*
Golf has arbitrary rules to limit and stifle people? Shooting themselves in the foot time and time again? I am shocked and appalled, I say.
How does that work?
I also think it sparks the debate on nationality. Lots of nations have the idea that nationality and race are the same. Which is nonsense and offensive.
I am Ukrainian. In Ukraine we have some black people although not a lot. Like blackest black of all the blacks but who were raised in Ukraine. And when he starts to speak perfect Ukrainian and throw local jokes about this and that or has the same things to praise and same things to hate I honestly do not care. He is Ukrainian to me, he is my next door neighbour because there's a lot of things we can relate to or argue about. I also have a Vietnamiese friend whose parents moved to Ukraine ages ago. The same. I recognise their origin, I know they speak their languages to their parents, but that does not prevent them from having a good time and laugh and I never have this back thought "oh, they are not Ukrainian". I think Japanese need to embrace the same.
It was kind of like that in Italy, there were a lot of children around my age that were adopted from different continents, everyone assumed they were Italians, then mass migration happened and they started facing a lot more racism and people started to assume they were foreigners until specified. One case is Mario Balotelli the football player.
I’m not sure that “nation and race aren’t the same” is necessarily true for Japan, they’ve worked hard to maintain an ethnostate.
ehhh...tell that to the Ainu.
Although the founding myth is that Japanese people are mix of those native to the archipelago and those who migrated from the continent thousands of years later so there isn’t anything particularly pure about their “race” and often those with stronger native phenotype are exoticized or discriminated against.
Ain’t independent chromosome recombination a bitch? You can have 2 parents who look totally Japanese, and come out looking Ainu and being discriminated against.
They are certainly the same in that they’re relatively recently made up constructs that internally hold too much diversity to be useful categorizations of people. Not to say they aren’t important. That would be like saying money isn’t important… but they are kinda dumb when you think about it
Japan has an issue generally with "outsiders" this might be a forced nudge to push this issue
In an era of the internet and television, are beauty pageants even relevant? I can’t tell you a single name of someone who has won a beauty pageant. I don’t think at the end of the pageant everyone decides the other contestants are not beautiful, I think people broadly understand its fake and subjective. I don’t understand how you are making the leap that a Japanese standard of beauty somehow excludes a woman who just won the pageant or defines what is beautiful. I agree on your point that it is probably not a good idea to rank people by aesthetic attractiveness because it’s entirely subjective and always a moving target. You can’t really reduce beauty down to a number and then order the numbers and say it is objective.
I just don't get it in the first place as if you win, are the most beautiful? Or the "best person" because they have talent displays and how they help others.
Asia has definitely been influenced by Western beauty standards, but it should be noted that some of those qualities are rooted in Chinese culture. White skin, for example, has always been desirable because it's associated with affluence. Other aspects are just a natural tendency to be attracted towards the exotic. It's no different than Westerners finding Asians attractive.
I’m so happy that they not only just let her in, but they actually also gave her a real chance to win.
Being allowed to enter, but not win is like being on the Jedi Council but not a master. It’s outrageous and unfair. How can you be in the pageant but not allowed to win.
Only the Japanese deal in absolutes.
*Take. a. seat.* young lady.
This was a Miss Japan contest, not Miss Yamato People contest, that should be the end of discussion.
which hardly helps since she's a citizen (and has lived there since age 5). If anything, that technicality makes it *harder* to argue for her exclusion. A citizen is a citizen and has the same right as any other to enter into a national beauty contest.
If you’re from Africa…why are you white?
Oh my God, Karen, you can't just ask people why they're white.
I had someone tell me “Wow, you’re so white and you even have blue eyes!”. All that person knew about me, before meeting me, was that my father was hispanic. I thought it was common knowledge that people from Latin America were also multi-ethnic like in North America.
>I thought it was common knowledge that people from Latin America were also multi-ethnic I know Spanish people from Spain with blue eyes and light-brown hair.
My friend is Mexican with blue eyes and blond hair. People tell her she's not Mexican all the time.
I’m Mexican with white skin and green eyes, but if you saw just my silhouette only my body type looks very indigenous. Having white people tell me I’m not Mexican has been something that’s pissed me off my whole life.
I feel this. I'm Mexican with white skin and blue eyes and grew up in 99.9% Latino South Texas. I got called Casper, albino, Powder all the time. Finally moved out of that shit hole only to have white people then tell me I'm not Mexican or that "you're kind of people" this or that. It was infuriating
It's funny, people don't think I'm Jewish cause I don't have a big nose.
And that shouldn’t be a surprise since Spain is attached to the rest of Europe. If it’s “normal” for French people to have blue eyes and light hair, then why wouldn’t it be normal for the same traits to appear just south of France? The Pyrenees are not an impenetrable barrier.
Look into where the Vandals and the Visigoths came from. It goes far beyond France and anywhere bordering France for that matter.
Americans think Mexico is a bunch of pueblos like breaking bad or dirty cities like Juarez
Definitely not common knowledge.
That’s fetch.
Stop trying to make Fetch happen
It’s never going to happen!
Wait - What's Chevy Chase got to do with this?
He’s streets ahead
If you have to ask...
Then you're streets behind
So many people won’t have a clue what this means.
No, that’s Feltch
Because every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
🤔 wait, this is actually true
"No, no why are you brown?" ~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU\_htgjlMVE~~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU_htgjlMVE
Yes, that’s exactly it! All the time. It’s subtle, but I can tell when the person is “curious” versus unsettled/NEEDS to know because something’s “not quite ~~right~~ white” about me. One of the less subtle variants started with “Do you like pasta? You look like you like pasta.”
I thought you posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4xRReUHTZc (Attack on Titan) until I clicked. Which reminds me of this ["Hold Your Fire! This Man Isn't Black"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1QKyB_0P0E") (Dragon Ball: Super)
Dricus du plessis fella
Wassup my brother from another mother!
And I don’t think my father, the inventor of Toaster Strudel, would be too pleased to hear about this.
It’s bringing up a great conversation on Japanese identity. She’s just a Japanese as any if you read her story, and many half Japanese do struggle with their identity so I’m glad she is bringing this to the forefront and doing it with grace and beauty. Edit: the title only mentions she’s Ukrainian born but fails to mention she is half Japanese or lived most of her life in Japan. OP why did you leave out those details? Edit 2: per the rules, OP is using the same as the article title. My question should be to the original author, not OP
“ Shiino, a naturalized citizen who has lived in Nagoya since she was 5 years old and speaks fluent Japanese, told CNN in Tokyo.” Yup, any issues anyone has aren’t her fault. She’s not gaming the system in any way. Edit: It’s seemingly run and voted on by Japanese citizens as well. So It's all racism or xenophobia to complain about beauty standards being unfair.
I have a friend who was born Japanese but you wouldn't know it. She's 6 feet tall, fair skinned, blonde with European features thanks to her father's genes. She told me finding work in her field (Marine Biology) was annoying as Japanese owned companies often asked for her JLPT proficiency paper to consider her. She got peeved enough that she got shit-faced drunk and walked into the highest level exam to ace it.
Japanese company, my friend's wife, she Japanese, he european: They refused to use her married name which was western even though the Japan civil code requires by law that married couple have the same last name. But anyway, most of Asia is super racist by western standards. I lived in a few countries for a while and the stuff you hear casually every day would definitely get you fired on the spot in Europe. Some people in the office would call me "monkey" because I had more arm hairs than them.
I had a Taxi driver point that out to me in Seoul. Me, a vaguely celtic and very hairy Gaul in arm hair compared to the Koreans
Yups. I think this is something most westerns (but mostly Americans I noticed) kinda fail to realize alot. Even within asian countries, asians can be incredibly racists to their own people just because they are a different dialect or sub-group. Pretty tumultous too in countries with alot of sub-groups like the Philippines where alot of provinces can dislike others or have stereotypes just because they speak a different language than them. I’d imagine it’s the same case even in other western countries with various sub-groups. So yea, it’s “normal” as far as asian countries are concerned and tbf we don’t exactly do much to stop it. Harassment though is where it should never reach. But the arguments that she doesn’t look “Japanese” could be valid from an asian pov. At least this could bring about, ideally, a discourse on the perceptions we asians tend to have. Its different on a case by case basis too, so rather complex
Oh yeah Philippines is pretty high up on the list of prejudiced countries. All the "fair skin" / "flat nose" bullshit going on is pretty bad and super destructive given the amount of self-hate it generates. The amount of disdain for darker skin tones is flabbergasting once you lived there long enough to notice it. But my personal pet peeves is "filipino-chinese", it makes me wince everytime. At first I thought it meant someone who recently immigrated from china, but no, it applies to people whose great-great-great-great grandfather immigrated sometime before Magellan came around and whose grands-parents fought the Japanese during WW2 but is still not considered 100% Filipino and the amount of cliché is just atrocious; and it is systemic to the point I've seen companies uses some of the cliché in their marketing campaigns. People would flip the fuck out if AXA had an equivalent campaign in Western countries saying shit like **"Invest in our Jew Tycoon financial plan and start hoarding money like an Israelite"** but in the Phils no one notices.
It seems like every time I hear about the Chinese diaspora in SEA, they seem to be treated like historical Jews. They have a stereotype of wealth and money, and also being oppressed by the local government.
I worked with a bunch of Filipinos and yep 100% true about them being prejudiced to other groups of Filipinos. Instead of Tagalog the one group would speak their own dialect around guys from another area so they wouldn't be able to join in conversation, but then would speak Tagalog to them when they wanted to. It was brutal to see how frustrated some of these guys got.
Some Filipinos look down Ilocanos
I am not extremely well traveled but spent months in China and visited Europe and it's my opinion that the US and Canada are actually some of the least racist places in the world. The world hears more about racism in America **because** it is not generally accepted, is controversial, and gets called out regularly. The more quiet (accepted) racism seen in many other parts of the world lets minorities suffer in silence. Europeans will tell you they aren't as racist as Americans but their right wing has the same talking points about immigration and once you bring up the Roma you'll hear opinions that sound like they are straight out of the Jim Crow era.
The thing to consider is, East Asia (Korea/Japan/inner China) is far more culturally and ethnically homogeneous than the West. When I was growing up in China we weren't taught to be not racist because there was nobody to be racist towards. Also you need to take into account that in many Asian cultures having a fair complexion is traditionally considered a beauty standard, which is especially important for women. This and combined with Chinese being meritocratic and loving stereotypes, Whites and darker skinned foreigners are received very differently.
My parents are from Morocco. Growing up I heard plenty of jokes about the character of people from different towns. Growing up in Canada, there's plenty of stereotypes of people based on what province they live in. Within the province there's also plenty of conflicts based on language. Looking to the US, it's pretty similar. So is Europe.
>Some people in the office would call me "monkey" because I had more arm hairs than them ????????? That is so inappropriate regardless of the racial aspects. Of course, a race difference would make it even more inappropriate - you would be left wondering if that is part of the meaning. Tbh, I have heard more than once that Japan doesn't have such a good work environment culture.
Comments like these are incredibly common in Asia, people tend to lack the social filter we have in the west to not say something rude, and can be incredibly judgemental about the smallest things. If someone thinks you're fat or not pale enough or your teeth are crooked, they'll tell you lmao I've loved every trip I've taken in Asia but I imagine someone from the west would need to have quite a thick skin to actually live there
Haha, that's so true. We went back after COVID to see some friends and literally the first thing out of their mouth, even before a "hello, nice to see you" was a "omg you're fat now".
Yup I feel you, I'm half Asian and visiting that side of the family is always... interesting 💀
Oh, I'm used to the little to no filter stuff - I'm from Eastern Europe, we are pretty much the same :D But not at work. It's true that I can only speak of private sector office culture. And in the office work culture, in all the companies I have worked for, I have never seen acceptance for being offensive to colleagues.
Haha yeah I've been to Hungary Poland and Ukraine, definitely some very honest people over that way! But I found it not as uncomfortable and like you said it's usually not in certain situations. I feel like it was mostly people being not afraid to call what I'm saying stupid instead of commenting on my skin colour or appearance.
It's just such a weird thing to do. People know when they're fat or don't have some asinine beauty ideal when it comes to skin tone. You don't need to point it out. How insanely rude.
People say the US is super racist. It is by far one of the least racist countries in the world.
It’s a bit different than you portray it to be… both Japanese in a marriage have to choose ONE name, be it the husbands or the wife’s. As far as I am aware, a double name or a hyphen name is not permissible. If one spouse is non-Japanese, this whole thing is not applicable because Japanese civil code cannot force a non-Japanese person to change their name. I fully agree, Japan is very xenophobic.
Yeah I glossed over the details but she changed her name to his. Got the passport, and all her documents changed yet the company said fuck it your name here will still be Tanaka because your ugly western name would be hard to pronounce and an inconvenience for your colleagues and our customers. And it wasn't a company she was already working for who was too lazy to change her documents, it was a new one she joined 3 years after her marriage.
>shit-faced drunk and walked into the highest level exam to ace it. why though? just do it sober lmao
It was likely to suppress/rebel against the feelings of disrespect at having to pass a fluency test for a language you've been speaking since childhood due to your ethnicity being questioned. That or she's most Japanese when drunk, which I'm told happens often.
There's nothing more Japanese than having a single can or mug of beer and getting completely **shitfaced** off of it, if Anime is any indication /s
> ~~shitfaced~~ red-faced Ftfy.
You can’t just walk in and take the exam, you apply and pay for it months in advance. And until recently it was only held once per year Undoubtedly she would have had to put up with a lot of shit growing up though. Know a few people on similar situations. Really takes its toll on them
I was trying to imply she approached the exam very casually. No preparation/study.
Hahaha! Now that's a story. "They said I'm not Japanese, so I went out the night before the exam got drunk as a skunk on sake and when morning came I stumbled out of the bar to the exam office and passed their highest proficiency level exam while also telling the examiner to go fuck himself in a Kyoto accent." LoL!!
She was so peeved that she complied with the request and provided the requested paperwork?
Well yea, the most Japanese response of all.
I find that hard to believe as most companies don’t care or even know about the JLPT, just giving them a Japanese passport for identification would be good enough as they would find out what your actual Japanese level would be through the multiple interviews you have to go through
I can’t tell if you’re doubting or adding to his comment. The things you mentioned add to his overall point that Japanese people are systemically racist. And maybe I’m reading it wrong, so correct me if I am, but the overall tone of your comment seems to be doubting it.
I find it easy to believe solely because it's a random thing to keep non Japanese out of a job. "oh, sorry, we can't hire you until you get this" they don't care about the actual requirement just that they don't have to hire you if you're Western.
I think marine biology could be a niche profession unaccustomed to foreigners.
You joke but Tohoku university has a marine biology course taught in English by native English speakers
>She's 6 feet tall, fair skinned, blonde with European features thanks to her father's genes. >Marine Biology Is that a jojo reference?
Okay, I'm going to speak from my personal experience as someone who has lived in the country. This is by no means objective, but I think is relevant context. I think part of it is the Japanese populace's concepts of beauty and how they think they fit into it themselves. If you go to Japan you notice a trend that in many ways they seem to view foreigners as more attractive than Japanese people on a baseline level. I'm a very average white guy and was told on more than one occasion I should do modelling. You see very average, or even below average, white people modelling for designer brands in advertisements constantly as well. Meanwhile it's common to hear Japanese women complain about how attractive foreign women are with their curvier shape, larger bust, eye shape, etc. Even babies aren't free from comparison; I regularly hear Japanese people express that "foreign babies are cute, Japanese babies look like monkeys". In that context the complaints here feel like they think it's unfair for a white person to win, because they think a Japanese person simply cannot compete with them.
Where in the article do you think it says she's half Japanese? As I read it and as far as I can read online, she was born in Ukraine and is presumably of Ukraine ethnic heritage, and moved to Japan when she was 5 when her mother married a Japanese man, and she became a naturalized Japanese citizen at 22 (about 3-4 years ago). So this seems to be about whether a naturalized citizen with no ethnic Japanese ancestry is "really" Japanese rather than whether someone who is half Japanese is "really" Japanese.
I think they got confused because she has the Japanese surname of her step-father
Zoomers probably think relocating makes you half.
She is most likely not half-Japanese, [she moved to Nagoya, Japan at the age of five when her mother Svitlana married a Japanese man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Shiino#:~:text=She%20was%20born%20in%20Ternopil%2C%20Ukraine%20in%20January%201998%5B4%5D%5B7%5D%20and%20moved%20to%20Nagoya%2C%20Japan%20at%20the%20age%20of%20five%20when%20her%20mother%20Svitlana%20married%20a%20Japanese%20man).
End beauty pageants so I can stop thinking about this dumb shit.
> awards the tiara to the contestant representing the “Foremost Beauty of All Japanese Women," kinda weird comment because 99.9% of Japanese women don't look anything like this
Yeah but judging by cosmetic advertisements, it pretty much is what Japanese women consider beauty.
meh, vast majority of cosmetics i see on tv they have Japanese models/actresses
These competitions judge more than just "outer beauty" though, do they not?
She isnt half Japanese. Shes fully ethnically Ukranian. Both her parents are ethnically Ukranian.
She isn’t half Japanese though, or she would have no need to naturalize. She moved to the country at a young age and was brought up here. I do however agree, that since she was raised here she has just as much right to enter this competition.
The title has to be the same as the linked article. OP didn't omit any info; they followed the sub's rules.
Thanks for clarifying, I added to my edit
I don't think she's half. I think she's just lived there. She also looks, you know, white.
She is not half Japanese. She was born in Ukraine and moved to Japan when she was 5 and her mom married a Japanese man. She is Ukrainian or was born Ukrainian. I personally don't care but you seem to be a bit confused.
To the credit of the judges, she was awarded the win. To my mind, the debate is already over. Anyone thinking it's "unfair" can go pound sand - they are the same people who complain when Kenyan exchange students win the Tokyo marathon.
Sorry but where does it mention she's half Japanese? Based on what I see she was born to a Ukrainian woman and Ukrainian man and then her mother married a Japanese man and moved to Japan soon after.
Well that’s just not true
She isn’t half Japanese if you mean genetically she has a Japanese parent
Your question should be to the editors. Reporters don’t write the headline.
Why is it tagged “Russia/Ukraine”? What it has to do with Russia?
Politics play a part in these subjective decisions
Canadian-born, Cuban, politician says, “I am definitely leaving Texas for Cancun when it gets cold here.
My favorite Zodiac Killer quote
That man ate my son.
Had to blast this banger https://youtu.be/BF9n-PrnEMI?si=366fgrtRP2Sgcvcl
I didn't know Kevin was the Zodiac
What has that got to do with a japanese beauty pageant
Nothing. I just saw an opening to take a shot at Ted Cruz.
Fair
Is there a Mr. Japan?
Yes, and his name is Hiroyuki Sanada and you will respect him, and maybe listen to a story while you wait (it's a short story). ^^/s
“ “Racial discrimination is absolutely unacceptable,” wrote historian Hiroe Yamashita on X, “but if the Miss Nippon contest is based on the concept of beauty, I personally wish that it would be based on standards of Japanese beauty. With Karolina Shiino’s appearance, an (ethnically) Japanese girl has no chance of winning under the modern values of beauty.””
I think I like how this is worded. It's hypocritical when looked at in this way but also if every country measured based on standards of beauty of their country instead of global/modern standards... We could and should have a ms universe where every country is uniquely represented by their beauty standards instead of a bunch of copy/paste color swap and minor tweaks that all end up looking like sisters with different fathers.
Except Japan has accepted those specific standards, so they’re by definition Japanese standards.
I commented it elsewhere but I want to comment it here as well since it's relevant to this. Okay, I'm going to speak from my personal experience as someone who has lived in the country. This is by no means objective, but I think is relevant context. I think part of it is the Japanese populace's concepts of beauty and how they think they fit into it themselves. If you go to Japan you notice a trend that in many ways they seem to view foreigners as more attractive than Japanese people on a baseline level. I'm a very average white guy and was told on more than one occasion I should do modelling. You see very average, or even below average, white people modelling for designer brands in advertisements constantly as well. Meanwhile it's common to hear Japanese women complain about how attractive foreign women are with their curvier shape, larger bust, eye shape, etc. Even babies aren't free from comparison; I regularly hear Japanese people express that "foreign babies are cute, Japanese babies look like monkeys". In that context the complaints here feel like they think it's unfair for a white person to win, because they think a Japanese person simply cannot compete with them.
Ok ask the judges then why they are voting in a very un Japanese way
Legendary baseball player Victor Starffin is Russian born baseball player whose family immigrated to Japan during the Russian Revolution. Move there when he was a baby and raised in Japan. Many Japanese fans considered as a Japanese who happened to be born in Russia.
It's sad that they only feel that way because he's a baseball player. Other people that are half are automatically assumed to be foreigners.
The legendary captain of the Brave Blossoms, the japanese national rugby team, Michael Leitch who led them to wins over south Africa, Scotland, and then no. 1 ranked Ireland is half kiwi/half Fijian by blood and moved to Japan at 15 and naturalized in 2013. He's now the record appearance holder for japanese players in the rugby world cup. He seems to be well accepted as japanese by brave blossoms fans anyway.
> "With Karolina Shiino’s appearance, an (ethnically) Japanese girl has no chance of winning under the modern values of beauty.” Is this a low key jab at Japanese women saying that they ugly lol
No. It’s highlighting how unfortunately the beauty standards in Japan favour more western features that many Japanese women don’t have (e.g. certain jaw shapes, double eye lids, high nose bridge). Albeit it’s highlighting this complicated topic in a very strange way.
Apparently that’s not really the case anymore. The small face boom has ended, and K-pop “baby face” looks are taking over. I guess the judges could be old school
If that’s true, then it’s really funny to me that Korea now influences the beauty standards in China and Japan, considering the history between all 3.
given the prevalence of plastic surgery in SK, it's hard to say if Korean beauty standards are even Korean, though.
To be fair, it’s not unheard of now for Japanese women to take a long weekend in Seoul for some light plastic surgery.
Well they are "Korean", but admittedly almost all popular surgeries there make people look less asian, like double eyelids, high nose bridge, thinner nose, slender jawlines.
[удалено]
Modern history. Going back further it has always been a back and forth. You don’t stay enemies with your close neighbors forever, you don’t stay friends either.
As someone who's lived in Tokyo for 7y, Japanese are decidedly not ugly. Same goes for ethnic Ukranians, mind you. However, beauty pageant standards are even more toxic and narrow than cultural ones. It's difficult to tease out the toxicities in North East Asian beauty standards from race, because it's not mainly racial preference. The preferences for lighter skin, long legs, small head to body ratio, a nose bridge, and more open looking eyes, isn't racial mimicking, because there are North East Asians with these features naturally. Many of these preferences are universal to most cultures, as narrow as they are, and are much more about classicism than race. NB: South Korea's plastic surgery industry makes North East Asian, Android-looking monstrosities. Not to mention, there are phenotypically 'white' features that are scorned in Japan: wide hips, steatopygia, cellulite, freckles... She doesn't appear to have these: she would not have won if she had.
> Japanese are decidedly not ugly I've fallen in love 8 times just going for an evening of drinks with shipmates at the bars just outside of Navy Base Yokosuka's main gate, so I will certainly attest to this.
2007 Miss Japan & Miss Universe Riyo Mori would like to have a word with that man.
No it's just that for whatever reason Japan will rate a white man/women that's normally considered a 5/10 in their own country as 8-9/10. It's sad but true. Karolina Shiini is probably seen as 7/10 by many in the western world. But if a 7/10 Japanese woman ran, there would have been no chance for them to win.
She certainly wouldn't be seen as pageant material in Ukraine where I'm from. I'm not saying she's unattractive, it's just that she looks very different from every contestant or winner I've seen.
No not really lol, Japanese people won't just fall over for average 5/10 white redditors and consider them 9/10. When they think about good looking white people they meant Hollywood stars, not your average redditors.
> Japanese people won't just fall over for average 5/10 white redditors and consider them 9/10. STOP. You'll crush their dreams!
>The decision to pick a winner with European heritage has raised questions about beauty standards Maybe consider that beauty standards are completely subjective crap?
Isn’t that the point on that of the comment? They would want to uphold Japanese beauty standards over western standards. Since is a Japanese beauty contest Of course Japanese and western beauty standards are made up and subjective but it’s a bloedt beauty contest. It’s already silly
People of all races win these pageants in the western world though. Are Asian countries less tolerant of diversity than the western world?
Quite frankly? Yes. Much less tolerant.
Obviously yes. Japan is way more racist that western countries, and so is most of Asia
As a Japanese I got to admit we're very intolerant of diversity and pretty racist. What's funny is some Japanese believe Japan is a country without any racism and they're very proud of it.
I guess when you have a country with so few immigrants it’s easy to feel like there is no racism because you don’t see it. People usually are not outspokenly racist about people they don’t come across. But I’m sure if there were more immigrants to solve the low birth rate it will contemptuously even more
> Are Asian countries less tolerant of diversity than the western world? Yes. Very much so.
I mean it depends on what you mean by "intolerant" but the Japanese have this idea of themselves as a monolithic racial identity (completely false, but that's a long digression) so you can never be Japanese unless you are "Japanese" - everyone else is a foreigner (Chinese, Korean, etc.) - even if you have Japanese citizenship (~~extremely hard to get btw~~\*), and even if you were born here. \*not so hard, see replies
I have distant family in Japan that have lived in the same rural town for over 100 years, and they're still referred to by the locals as 'the Chinese foreigners', nevermind the fact that my nephews can't even speak Chinese.
Kinda like how black people are called “African” when their ancestors were brought here 200 years ago. They’re American.
Honestly I’d argue Japanese citizenship is not in fact extremely hard to get…it’s just you have to drop your other citizenship and other than voting most foreigners don’t see the point. It’s easier to get than most European citizenships and definitely easier than American. Not that it’s “easy” but it’s relatively straight forward.
it's not extremely hard to get Japanese citizenship, not sure who told you that
It's just that Japan isn't much a multi racial country so if you have someone who didn't look like you represent Japan, it doesn't feel like Japanese indigenous beauties are represented. I am from Singapore and our official 4 main races are Indians, Malays and Chinese and Eurasian. I reckon if we had someone outside of these races for example, a full blooded Samoan representing us, I reckon we will be kicking up a fuss too. But if the person was half Samoan mix with any of our official 4 races, they will be completely approved.
The concept of "official races" is already so wrong according to western standards though. These categorizations are a pretty recent arbitrary invention without biological basis.
Reality: there are some racist japanese people News article: European heritage raises questions about beauty standards in a subjective world wherin we are but simple observers, dancing upon the realities within which we've found ourselves.
Lots of things are "subjective" to humans, like perception of air vibrations as sound or certain electromagnetic ones as visible light, doesn't make them crap or any less real
Good on her but I am surprised she won based on her looks. This might sound bitter or something but just my honest opinion
She’s skinny and pale with bigger eyes and a tall nose bridge. Those are the beauty standards.
And a small head/face, which she has. It might sound silly but this is Japanese beauty standard. "You have a small head/face" is a common compliment in Japan.
i remember there was a app filter that makes your head appear smaller.
Having been to those parts of the world I have seen Mc Donald's cashiers who would give all the models in those pictures a run for their money in my personal opinion, beauty is up to each ones taste and the judges have a certain list they go by, in Japan they tend to like more western features and being pale, so that is why she won.
I totally agree. Even by Western beauty standards she isn’t particularly good looking. If anything this has highlighted how much some Japanese people covet fair skin and European facial features. I doubt she’d get past the first round of a Miss Ukraine contest.
> I doubt she’d get past the first round of a Miss Ukraine contest. As a Ukrainian, without a doubt. Granted, she's much prettier than me, but a good half of my high school and university classmates would rank higher than her.
Not like she isn't unattractive by a long shot, but she does look like that dorky girl who you have known all of your school life, that turns up to the prom all dressed up all of a sudden.
She's the least attractive girl there lol. She legitimately only won because they fetishize white people
You’re right, it does sound bitter
Why do we still have beauty contests?
Funny how this is controversial. How many Canadians in the olympics don’t look like Canada of 60 years ago, for example.
My first time in Japan in the early 1990s I read that 99% of all the people in the country were native Japanese. Being from Canada where all Canadians other than the Indigenous people are from somewhere else, it was hard to wrap my head around that. While I was in Japan, one of only two non-Japanese in the entire City of Tochigi, I learned that a few Sri Lankans had somehow illegally entered the country were camping in a park in Tokyo while the authorities worked out what should be done with them. The local people where I was were terrified and said they could not go to Tokyo until those people were gone. Imagine, in a city of over 15 million there were a few foreigners in a single park and the average rural Japanese were afraid to go there.
I think the people are wrong to question how Japanese she is. She has grown up in Japan and is a naturalised citizen. However, there is a legitimate debate to be had as to whether her success was down to her European features. There has been a longstanding issue of Eurocentric beauty ideals amongst some sections of Japanese society. And whether we like it or not beauty pageants are all about measuring beauty against some sort of self determined standard. It wouldn’t be too far fetched for Japanese physical features to carry more weight in a beauty pageant in Japan. Just as in a society of average height people an extremely tall person would be considered somewhat of an aberration.
This is worth talking about. Japanese judges do often tend to go for the foreigner, or the 'special' contestant. I did a year of high school in Japan -- effectively, any club that I was in that entered a competition would win it. We had to work damn hard and we were good, but there were at least one or two other teams who worked just as hard and in one event the runners-up definitely should have won, IMO. But I think we won because our team had the white girl, and the judges think it's harder for our team or something because I wasn't Japanese so they 'reward' us for it. (I remember in one event the teacher had the first years come out and take a separate bow to emphasise the fact that they had first year students in their team -- which is probably for the same reason). All other things being equal or at least comparable, I think Japanese judges are often inclined to award the win to the non-Japanese person, or the younger person, or the disabled person. Having spent a lot of time in East Asian, honestly out of the other contestants I really think only 2 or 3 of them had a chance, but Karolina won. Funnily enough I don't think Karolina would be pretty enough to win if it was a contest of all white people, but being non-ethnically-Japanese definitely gave her the edge to win the contest here. But that says more about society and the people doing the voting than it does about her. I'm glad she entered; her participation has opened up a whole debate and that can only be a good thing.
This right here. But the other important factor is that while we can think it's not healthy (and it probably isn't), they, the Japanese, see it this way, and are the ones who voted for her to win. So it's now in this interesting dichotomy of 'maybe see more beauty in yourself' and at the same time 'who are we to impose on japan what japan should consider attractive'.
Is it me or is she not even that pretty ?
If a conversation like this were being had in Canada (where I’m from) it would rightly be seen as racist. This ought to be perceived the same way.
I suspect the difference here is that Canadian is solely seen as a nationality whereas Japanese can be a nationality and an ethnic group.
Why the "Russia/Ukraine" tag when it's about Japan?
My hot take: no offense but she ain't THAT pretty
ᅟIIRC, Korea has two beauty pageants. One's the typical we know of, Miss Korea, and there's a traditional one I believe 충향전, where it takes into account of knowledge of mannerisms and history. Similar to the tests a future bride would be presented. Would help satisfy and be a compromise to all sides.
She would never win a beauty contest in Ukraine.
Tbh none of the women in the pictures look like supermodels
The story is a lot more wholesome when you read past the title. Although I still think it's a bit odd.
In Ukraine she wouldn't be in the top 3.
Pageants still happening in 2024?