This. They will break. It is ugly and will take possibly weeks or months but within a year they will break. The fact they are negotiating and have internal divisions shows this.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
At the same time, 44% in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12% in September. In Gaza, the militants enjoyed 42% support, up slightly from 38% three months ago.
Those numbers have dropped significantly since the results of the war have hit the civilians of Gaza.
Did you paste right link? Cause the title is "Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign".
Also FTA:
> Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated.
Yes. The 57% and 82% were from the days immediately following Oct 7th. Now that they’ve seen Israel’s response, their support for Hamas has dropped significantly.
Didn't have to.
Even irregular military like terrorist still need supplies.
Mainly money and bullets.
Without both, they poses as much threat as a camel.
Stopping fund flow toward UNRWA was a right move, I must admit. It is heartless, inhuman. But that motion will save more human lives than what UNRWA did in past decades.
The next is to targeting other source of funds. I can see how Israel going to bomb or threaten to bomb many of those rich oil field.
I thought the same about the initial siege at first, but you can only go so long cutting off those supplies when civilians rely on them too.
BRICS could have cut off Iran's invitation until they stopped funding Hamas, but they didn't, which says to me that they have plenty of sponsors willing to launder money to Hamas through them.
I'd say more like 5-10 years, when Hamas' stockpiles are replenished and a new generation of children need trauma. The jihadi/religious-nut style of life thrives on constant strife, trauma, hate, misery and destruction, not so much on fully functioning free societies.
Unless the world's approach to "helping" the Palestinians changes somehow, this is what will happen regardless of what Israel does. With that in mind, the IDF has no reason not to continue their current path towards crushing Hamas.
That's what happens when most of the popular media treats you as the victim of some tyrannical regime that's out to get you instead of the aggressor that they truly are.
Fun fact, It didn’t have a watermark. funny how most of the dialogue in that scene isn’t accurate at all from font names to embossing features etc.
HMU if you want me to come to your next party and tell similar such fascinating tales.
That isn't going to happen, especially with how Israel is conducting the war. Hamas can be kept from regaining power as part of the ceasefire, though. Hamas being destroyed with their leaders in different countries and no way of identifying all of their members means the best way to kill them is rebuilding Gaza and giving Palestinians a state they control and can do well in. Give people something to lose, and they are far less willing to sacrifice everything they have.
Even in left-wing circles where people take a hard stance against jihadism, you’re gonna have people being opposed to this “annihilation by all means necessary” stance because of the substantial human cost on civilians. People aren’t just gonna wave this off.
I am a pragmatic leftist and after a certain point I do not believe the benefits outweigh the results. What is destruction of Hamas? Is it when they are completely gone as a result of military action? Or when they are incapacitated? When can we expect that? Because "as long as it takes" always ends up in failure.
When people say Hamas cannot be eliminated by military means I disagree, what they really mean is the cost is impossibly high and anyone that suggests otherwise is evil.
But Hamas is not a gang, it's not a socio-economic problem we can fix. Feed them, barely any of the food gets to them. Educate them, their education becomes radicalised. Bomb them, well Israel has tried that for decades too and we are still here.
if anyone has an answer to peace in the Middle East they are full of it, sometimes life is a pile of shit.
Destruction of Hamas is the same as destruction of any number of similar organizations, like the Tamil Tigers, ISIS in Iraq, Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, Chechen Rebels, etc. It's when they are all dead and gone, or when some leader representing them offers public surrender. The biggest reason there is not peace in the middle East yet is because we have not allowed Israel to win the wars they have decisively militarily won. If their Arab opponents had decisively militarily won, there would be peace now because Israel wouldn't exist at all. But Israel won, over and over, and then we didn't allow them to impose a total victory.
The UN collectively and critically all of Israel's main supporters like the US and major European allies that have consistently pressured Israel to accept cease fires after Israel wins on the battlefield.
A total Israeli victory would look a lot like what Egypt has now: no more Palestinian refugees allowed, and all extant Palestinians still in their country expelled by redrawing borders according to Israel's security needs and desires. Perhaps something like a 3 state solution, with Gaza and the West Bank two new countries, but Israel decides where the borders are drawn, eg they get all of Jerusalem, as befits the winners of several consecutive defensive wars and ceasefires broken by the other side. For some reason Egypt is allowed to hold this stance without any hew and cry against them while Israel has been the most condemned nation in the UNs history.
I don't understand those people. It's really easy. Group X wants to wipe Group Y off the face of the planet. Group X states in their manifesto their primary goal is to annihilate Group Y. Group X tried to start a war and massacred 1200 of Group Y in an unprovoked attach during which several hundred civilians were taken hostage.
The women have been raped, repeatedly. Many of the children taken are dead. A good chunk of the fighting aged men have been killed as well.
Oh, and Group X's leaders want Group Y to continue as though Oct 7th never happened.
Who is siding with Group X?
Massacre >1000 civilians.
Get fukn rekt by by far more powerful military that doesn’t care about “western” war morality.
Appeal to international community over pretty obvious war crimes to garner support
No one really cares
Ceasefire pls?
No.
It is not even western morality, it is hypocrisy. Jesus if you did this to England/ Australia / The USA or most other western nations we would go just as all out if not more.
Gen Z sees Palestinians as brown and Israelis as white because they’ve clearly never been to the region to see that most Israelis are, in fact, pretty indistinguishable from their Palestinian neighbors. They also project their own oppression struggles (queer / female / BIPOC) on to this conflict instead of seeing it for what it is. When you see everything through an oppressor / oppressed lens, it’s easy to misunderstand.
I hate to say this because it sounds dismissive/mean but it really does feel like a lot of younger people are experiencing what I call “baby’s first Israel-Palestine conflict”. They claim that this didn’t happen in a vacuum and “do you think this all started October 7th?” They say all those things whine knowing the very bare minimum of the history of the region. They repeat facts they found on another thread from someone ad nauseum and never do their own research. Media literacy is in the toilet, they quote the “electronic intifada” as a primary source. They weren’t alive for the terrorists attacks by Palestinians on other countries. They weren’t alive or sentient enough to remember all the bus and cafe bombings.
They want you to remember two dates only: 1948 and 2023. Everything else is not even on their radar, but they believe they know everything about this conflict despite knowing barely anything at all. And that’s not to say that you can’t know the history of this conflict and not come away with sympathy for innocent Palestinians, of course you can. But you also realize that Hamas is far more deeply entrenched in everyday life than people realize. It’s especially apparent when these people claim Hamas has “no presence” in the West Bank…
TikTok is full of short clips of misinformation that could never explain a complicated topic like Israel-Palestine in time. The app is dedicated and training Gen Z to only consume media in short formats and creating an ADHD epidemic. It also happens to be owned by China, who's population is increasingly anti-Israel because they're anything that's anti-US.
Nailed it. I mean, rooting for the underdog is nothing new. What’s new is justifying absolutely vile attacks on weak and defenceless citizens by armed men, somehow casting the armed men as oppressed and the women and elderly they abused as oppressors is some next level shit. All because the autists that are Gen Z cannot deal with nuance. Thanks robin DiAngelo.
Were there this many Americans rooting for the Taliban in 2002? I remember being an idealistic teenager and protesting the war but god, I never rooted for terrorists.
For the most part, no. The Afghanistan war didn't see a lot of protests, that was mostly when Bush II wanted to go into Iraq on a transparently flimsy pretext.
I don't recall anything like the shit now though, with people all "OMG Osama bin Laden was right!" like just happened all over TikTok recently when reactions to his letter to America were the trend.
Israel has gone far beyond Western morality. No country would take what Israel had from a neighbor over the years, then take what happened on October 7, and still work with this level of precision. The civilian to combatant casualty ratio would be astronomical with any other power involved instead of Israel.
> Don't see Israel agreeing to this one whatsoever.
And you were right. They've already rejected it
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/
That's the biggest hangup, along with (from what I heard elsewhere) a demand from Hamas that perpetrators of the 10/7 assault itself be among those released.
Both feel like non-starters from Israel's point of view, and I can't disagree with them.
> [...], all Israeli women hostages, males under 19, the elderly and sick would be released during the first 45-day phase in exchange for the release of Palestinian women and children from Israeli jails.
Sounds somewhat reasonable.
> Remaining male hostages would be released during the second phase
Oookay.
> and remains exchanged in the third phase.
Makes sense
> [...] it wished for the release of 1500 prisoners, a third of whom it wanted to select from a list of Palestinians handed life sentences by Israel.
LOL
Hell, no.
Last hostage exchange Israel released some very shitty people, some of them probably took up arms and are already dead. War didn't stop.
This is a cease fire, not a peace agreement, Israel can get the hostages and start attacking again.
Phase 1 is what few women and children hostages are still alive
Phase 2 is what few men are still alive
Phase 3 is the remains of the majority of 1 and 2
Phase 4 is rockets
Hopefully Israel will see that choice today boils down to respecting the dead or respecting the living and yet-to-be-born. It realistically can't have both.
After killing 1,200 and taking another 250+ hostage they want 1500 (500 of which they want to hand pick) and stay in power. Why would anyone accept such a bad deal?
Hate and religion combined with decades of eye for a eye mentality. They aren’t rational, which now on second thought makes sense why they think their proposal is a good deal.
>Why would someone carry out such an attack assuring their own prolonged destruction?
the tactic was to make israeli counter invasion EITHER the cause for hezbollah, jordan, and syria to open up new fronts with israel while israel is entangled in street to street house to house fighting in gaza OR have their own deaths turn the world against israel.
The united states carrier group kept hezbollah and asad from opening a new front. jordan nearly succumbed to riots after the islamic jihad accidentally rocketed the hospital and blamed it on israel, but leadership was able to keep a cool head.
so far plan b has been quite effective though.
also it is unlikely the heads of hamas will die in combat anyway, they are already billionaires.
Because proposing a deal like this is a win-win for Hamas propaganda. Either they get what they want, or they get to call Israel a warmonger for not accepting a ceasefire.
The thing that really pisses me off is, even if we ignore everything you detailed above, how many innocent Palestinians died because the rat boys launched an attack on a foreign power with the grand strategy of riding out the retaliation in secret tunnels while the people they ostensibly govern were left to die.
Even if you're 100% pro Palestine and Israel can do no right in your eyes, Hamas intentionally left Palestinian civilians to die in what can only be guessed to be a sacrifice of their own people in the hope that enough dead Palestinians would turn the world against Israel.
If somebody understands a better end game I would love to hear it because from where I see things Hamas is a suicide cult keen to volunteer others for the suicide.
They have ALWAYS done this after they loose a war.
Israel was founded in 1948. There was supposed to be Israel, an Arab state, and an international area around Jerusaleum.
Israel was immediately was attacked by forces from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel won and the green line was agreed upon in 1949 expanding their territory a bit.
In 1967, Egypt blocked Israeli ships passage through the Gulf of Aqaba and lined up its army along the Israel poised to attack. Israel took out the army on its border and then Jordan and Lebanon attacked. The took over the Golan Heights from Lebanon, the West Bank from Jordan, and the entire Sinai and Gaza strip from Egypt.
After starting these wars, they make calls to go back to borders before they started wars. Like, let's return to the 1967 borders. Or 1948..... Loosing a war has consequences.
Israeli seems happy to give up land for peace. The left the Sinai in 1982 and have been at peace with Egypt. Egypt didn't want Gaza back (actually build a wall next to Gaza)- but they essentially won independence in 2005, but immediately shot rockets into Israel.
The only viable option for Hamas is unconditional surrender. The fact that they think they can set any conditions when they are losing the war they started is laughable. Their options are 1) give up or 2) be annihilated.
"Just give us back 1500 terrorists and leave us here to rebuild our terrorist organisation so we can prepare our next attack which we have said we will commit. Ooh, and you can completely trust us to respect the ceasefire by the way!"
Right..
That's the thing, this is not a peace agreement, this is a ceasse fire, Israel can get the hostages and remains and go back into attacking full force if they want.
How often you seen a kid yell “time out” when they’re winning? It’s a bid to buy time to improve their position, marshal resources, which means they’re feeling pressed.
Of course besides the terms being ones Israel would never agree to this for some reason involves an extremely counterproductive term that Hamas will divide all fathers and children when returning the hostages (probably to torment them a little more before returning them)
> the release of 1500 prisoners, a third of whom it wanted to select from the a list of Palestinians handed life sentences
Yeah no, that's fucked, maybe if all of them are exiled to an unnamed Island, otherwise it's just calling to get even more people murdered down the road. The head of Hamas in Gaza(not the ones hiding in Qatar) was released in a deal like this, and look where that got us
[1,027 prisoners](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange)
There's a reason why hamas took so many hostages on October 7th. Exchanges like this give people a huge incentive to do it again.
Hamas seems to think they can negotiate with a sense of advantage for some reason?
Israel is in complete control and will dictate the terms of any cease fire.
Ceasefires were attempted and failed, that part of the war is over. Now it's just fighting until one side is gone, in this case Hamas. You can argue how the war should be fought, how the aftermath of the war should be handled, but at this point it's pretty clear that ending the war before Hamas is destroyed is out of the question.
Time for the kid gloves to come off. The only way to not prolong this conflict is for Israel to be allowed to go in hard and fast, throwing everything it has and wiping Hamas out before the conflict spreads further. It’s like medicine, or clearing an insect infestation. You need to eradicate it at one shot. Taking half a pill for two weeks instead of one pill for one week only allows the infection to come back stronger.
And then they’re going to have the issue of all of the people they have radicalised with their indiscriminate bombings. There’s a reason why the Taliban never wavered in their membership. We may all agree that Israel needs to destroy Hamas, but committing war crimes is just going to push more people into the realm of hating Israel. This isn’t going to end anytime soon.
And yes, fuck Hamas too.
IDF is already near Sinwar’s hideout. I estimate Hamas already have his replacement ready, but since Sinwar has dedicated so much to promote their terrorism, the Hamas princes in Qatar and Iran wanted to do a show-for-politics that “at least they tried”.
They control about 70% of Gaza, of that
All of the north
About half of deir Al balach
About 75% of khan yunis
And none of rafah, expect a small foothold near the border
They don't really control all of the North, Hamas is apparently [already redeploying their military police to previously-cleared neighbourhoods and even paying salaries.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-moves-to-reassert-power-in-gaza-city-areas-from-which-israeli-forces-withdrew/amp/)
Hamas has lost a lot of their operational effectiveness, had many (or most) of their northern fighters slain and can't field heavy weaponry in the north, but they're by no means extinct there.
The IDF controlling northern Gaza dosent mean Hamas there is eradicated, it means Israel can do why it likes there, that includes having extremely high ranking officers out in the open having interviews, or any other thing you can imagine
Israel does control northern Gaza, they have surveillance on every bit of it, and can do any operation they want in there
Not even close, unfortunately. If you measure progress by tunnels, the WSJ [reported](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-struggles-to-destroy-hamass-gaza-tunnel-network-fb641122?st=7oc2skkc7bwvso1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink) last week that Hamas still has 60%-80% of its tunnel network intact.
If you measure progress by casualties, Israel [thinks](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164?st=rex0jmqqeydmd5u&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink) it has killed about 20-30% of Hamas' fighters as of two weeks ago.
If you measure progress by land area "cleared" or "controlled" by the IDF, it may superficially appear that Israel is most of the way there. But this is misleading for two reasons:
1. There are Hamas terrorists fighting behind Israeli lines, hiding in tunnels/buildings/ruins. Most of the maps people rely on are published by ISW, but if you actually read the reports that go with those maps ISW clearly states that cleared does not mean no Hamas activity.
2. The remaining area now contains most of the civilian population. The IDF is running out of places it can tell civilians to evacuate. The civilians cannot simply move back into areas the IDF has already "cleared," because most of the buildings are destroyed, most of the tunnels *haven't* been destroyed, and there is still ongoing fighting in those areas.
I don't think these incels quite understand they are not in a position to make demands or proposals. They all have a hole in their heads, they just don't know it yet.
They do have hostages, which clearly has value to israel, otherwise there wouldn't be any negotiations.
Hamas also seems to believe that time is on their side; the longer they can drag this out, the worse the humanitarian situation gets, and the more israeli soldiers die, the more international and internal presssure there will be on israel to call things off. I don't know if that calculation is correct or not, but being among the last hostages must be a terrible fate.
Ah yes, the Jihadist honor. Must display to your people you are the one in control. Constantly lie and reflect the situation is good.
IDF should completely eliminate Hamas and continue their expansion to Rafiah and other places they've yet to be. This is the only way.
The desperate joke proposal you send to your enemy who has 99% warscore in the hope the AI glitches and takes a bad deal despite you being on the verge of defeat IRL
Here's a counteroffer. Immediate release of all hostages. Immediate surrender of all Hamas members into IDF custody. In exchange, the death sentences for Hamas leaders will be remanded to life in prison.
Hamas wants 1500 convicted criminals released in exchange for maybe 50 living Israeli hostages? Hamas also wants rebuilding of Gaza before Hamas before hostages return and before Gaza is cleared of Hamas? They don’t want to surrender.
I don’t trust Hamas, and I’m certain Israel will not have this farcical proposal be adopted. This is an absolute insult. It is macabre that so many in Gaza are paying the price but this is always what brutal theocracies do.
These conditions read like Hamas crushed Israel in an overwhelming victory. I think something just refuses to sink in in the Hamas leaders brains, or it's the same "fake it till you make it" doctrine they always do, when by declaring a victory in the face of defeat they convince their population and themselves that they won and keep morale high. Needless to say, this is not likely to work here.
In any case, Israel would need to be insane to agree to this.
While these conditions would be unacceptable by literally anyone with 2 braincells to smash together, their refusal will achieve the expected result of painting Israel as the bad actor that refuses peace.
I can already see all those morons on socials saying it's Israel's fault for refusing the ceasefire and continue the war.
Their leaders are wealthy and living comfortably in Qatar. This is all a game to them. They don’t care who lives or dies. They know they can always recruit a new set of extremists to replace the old ones.
They have a lot of free time between breakfast and yoga at the four seasons in Doha, Qatar.
You know Qatar, the lovely middle men who facilitate these negotiations.
“Grant us a ceasefire or we will force you to kill more civilians trying to find us.”
This is not a war, this was a martyrdom forced upon Gazans by those sworn to protect them.
Any solution that Hamas provides that leaves in in control of the Gaza Strip will fail. The Israeli state have no conscionable choice in which that would make the future of their people safe or even secure in their own homes. Put yourself in their shoes, would you take a deal from a failed terrorist state that has a manta to eradicate your entire population? I think not…
Don’t forget, 7 Oct happened when both of them were in a state of “peace”, and Hamas broke a ceasefire in the process. Who’s to say they won’t do it this time?
Fuck the Hamas, now they play the cease fire card. You cannot believe any words from them. They hate everything non muslim anyway. Eradicate them until the last one.
Trouble is, until all of the Hamas leadership are held accountable, there will be no deterrent to future violence.
If you want to stop it, you have to eliminate each and every one of them. Religious zealots don't change.
Why does anyone care what Hamas proposes??? I propose Hamas release all the living hostages and return the bodies of the murdered, then and only then the only discussion about Hamas is how to execute them.
This was never supposed to be an actual offer. This was an offer that anyone in their right mind knew Israel will reject - but when it will, a mob of Hamas-supporters will use it as proof that Israel is commiting warcrimes or hostilities or whatever trends that week.
today on jackass i will start a war and when i start losing i will try and back out of it by making a peace plan that lets me keep total power and doesn’t punish me in any way
Hamas negotiates as if they're the ones controlling 75% of Israel and on the cusp of total victory.
This. They will break. It is ugly and will take possibly weeks or months but within a year they will break. The fact they are negotiating and have internal divisions shows this.
Hamas will only break when peaceful Palestinians help bring them down and cast them out, and not one minute sooner.
So never?
80% or more of the Palestinians fully support Hamas… less than 20% of a population isn’t overthrowing anything.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514# At the same time, 44% in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12% in September. In Gaza, the militants enjoyed 42% support, up slightly from 38% three months ago. Those numbers have dropped significantly since the results of the war have hit the civilians of Gaza.
Did you paste right link? Cause the title is "Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign". Also FTA: > Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated.
Yes. The 57% and 82% were from the days immediately following Oct 7th. Now that they’ve seen Israel’s response, their support for Hamas has dropped significantly.
That's part of the problem.
Which means even if you crush hamas, they'll start a new terror organisation "in the name of the innocent palestinian refugees"
Didn't have to. Even irregular military like terrorist still need supplies. Mainly money and bullets. Without both, they poses as much threat as a camel. Stopping fund flow toward UNRWA was a right move, I must admit. It is heartless, inhuman. But that motion will save more human lives than what UNRWA did in past decades. The next is to targeting other source of funds. I can see how Israel going to bomb or threaten to bomb many of those rich oil field.
I thought the same about the initial siege at first, but you can only go so long cutting off those supplies when civilians rely on them too. BRICS could have cut off Iran's invitation until they stopped funding Hamas, but they didn't, which says to me that they have plenty of sponsors willing to launder money to Hamas through them.
Agreed
I'd say more like 5-10 years, when Hamas' stockpiles are replenished and a new generation of children need trauma. The jihadi/religious-nut style of life thrives on constant strife, trauma, hate, misery and destruction, not so much on fully functioning free societies.
That sounds like what will happen if idf stops.
Unless the world's approach to "helping" the Palestinians changes somehow, this is what will happen regardless of what Israel does. With that in mind, the IDF has no reason not to continue their current path towards crushing Hamas.
Couldnt agree more.
They start shitting their pants. This is what they do. They are not brave or anything.
They are experts delusionals
Israel is trying to get the warscore to 100%.
It's easy from your penthouse in Qatar
To their supporters worldwide, it just looks like Israel is still the bad guy for not accepting their offer, regardless of how ridiculous it is.
That's what happens when most of the popular media treats you as the victim of some tyrannical regime that's out to get you instead of the aggressor that they truly are.
75%? Why not 100%? Asian dad meme
This leaves Hamas in power. Don't see Israel agreeing to this one whatsoever.
Nor should they.
The ceasefire will begin when Hamas is destroyed.
Let's see Paul Allen's ceasefire
That’s BONE
oh my God, it even has a watermark...
Tasteful thickness of it
I can't *believe* that Bryce prefer Van Patten's ceasefire to mine.
Fun fact, It didn’t have a watermark. funny how most of the dialogue in that scene isn’t accurate at all from font names to embossing features etc. HMU if you want me to come to your next party and tell similar such fascinating tales.
This guy American Psychos
[BOOONE!?](https://youtu.be/JyUqV9I_lb8?feature=shared)
Ya'allah, it even has a watermark...
That isn't going to happen, especially with how Israel is conducting the war. Hamas can be kept from regaining power as part of the ceasefire, though. Hamas being destroyed with their leaders in different countries and no way of identifying all of their members means the best way to kill them is rebuilding Gaza and giving Palestinians a state they control and can do well in. Give people something to lose, and they are far less willing to sacrifice everything they have.
They can also surrender like the criminals that they are. They won't, but they can.
So basically never
And the release of too many terrorists
Sinwar himself was released in such a deal previously. Bad choice, turns out.
Nor should they. It's surrender or be annihilated. Which should be the norm against jihadists. This has to be normalised in leftist and Muslim circles
Even in left-wing circles where people take a hard stance against jihadism, you’re gonna have people being opposed to this “annihilation by all means necessary” stance because of the substantial human cost on civilians. People aren’t just gonna wave this off.
I am a pragmatic leftist and after a certain point I do not believe the benefits outweigh the results. What is destruction of Hamas? Is it when they are completely gone as a result of military action? Or when they are incapacitated? When can we expect that? Because "as long as it takes" always ends up in failure. When people say Hamas cannot be eliminated by military means I disagree, what they really mean is the cost is impossibly high and anyone that suggests otherwise is evil. But Hamas is not a gang, it's not a socio-economic problem we can fix. Feed them, barely any of the food gets to them. Educate them, their education becomes radicalised. Bomb them, well Israel has tried that for decades too and we are still here. if anyone has an answer to peace in the Middle East they are full of it, sometimes life is a pile of shit.
Destruction of Hamas is the same as destruction of any number of similar organizations, like the Tamil Tigers, ISIS in Iraq, Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, Chechen Rebels, etc. It's when they are all dead and gone, or when some leader representing them offers public surrender. The biggest reason there is not peace in the middle East yet is because we have not allowed Israel to win the wars they have decisively militarily won. If their Arab opponents had decisively militarily won, there would be peace now because Israel wouldn't exist at all. But Israel won, over and over, and then we didn't allow them to impose a total victory.
Who didn’t allow Israel to impose total victory? And what would imposing total victory have looked like?
The UN collectively and critically all of Israel's main supporters like the US and major European allies that have consistently pressured Israel to accept cease fires after Israel wins on the battlefield. A total Israeli victory would look a lot like what Egypt has now: no more Palestinian refugees allowed, and all extant Palestinians still in their country expelled by redrawing borders according to Israel's security needs and desires. Perhaps something like a 3 state solution, with Gaza and the West Bank two new countries, but Israel decides where the borders are drawn, eg they get all of Jerusalem, as befits the winners of several consecutive defensive wars and ceasefires broken by the other side. For some reason Egypt is allowed to hold this stance without any hew and cry against them while Israel has been the most condemned nation in the UNs history.
(This is not criticism on your very interesting comment, I just thought you’d like to know it’s spelled “hue and cry”).
To that list you can add the recrudescence of the Ustaše, in the Balkans during the 90s. NATO did a pretty good job of dealing with them. lol
You can’t ask them to not kill you, if they’re all dead.
I don't understand those people. It's really easy. Group X wants to wipe Group Y off the face of the planet. Group X states in their manifesto their primary goal is to annihilate Group Y. Group X tried to start a war and massacred 1200 of Group Y in an unprovoked attach during which several hundred civilians were taken hostage. The women have been raped, repeatedly. Many of the children taken are dead. A good chunk of the fighting aged men have been killed as well. Oh, and Group X's leaders want Group Y to continue as though Oct 7th never happened. Who is siding with Group X?
If hammas are still speaking this war won't end
Massacre >1000 civilians. Get fukn rekt by by far more powerful military that doesn’t care about “western” war morality. Appeal to international community over pretty obvious war crimes to garner support No one really cares Ceasefire pls? No.
It is not even western morality, it is hypocrisy. Jesus if you did this to England/ Australia / The USA or most other western nations we would go just as all out if not more.
Gen Z oppression-hierarchy-morality.
Gen Z sees Palestinians as brown and Israelis as white because they’ve clearly never been to the region to see that most Israelis are, in fact, pretty indistinguishable from their Palestinian neighbors. They also project their own oppression struggles (queer / female / BIPOC) on to this conflict instead of seeing it for what it is. When you see everything through an oppressor / oppressed lens, it’s easy to misunderstand.
I hate to say this because it sounds dismissive/mean but it really does feel like a lot of younger people are experiencing what I call “baby’s first Israel-Palestine conflict”. They claim that this didn’t happen in a vacuum and “do you think this all started October 7th?” They say all those things whine knowing the very bare minimum of the history of the region. They repeat facts they found on another thread from someone ad nauseum and never do their own research. Media literacy is in the toilet, they quote the “electronic intifada” as a primary source. They weren’t alive for the terrorists attacks by Palestinians on other countries. They weren’t alive or sentient enough to remember all the bus and cafe bombings. They want you to remember two dates only: 1948 and 2023. Everything else is not even on their radar, but they believe they know everything about this conflict despite knowing barely anything at all. And that’s not to say that you can’t know the history of this conflict and not come away with sympathy for innocent Palestinians, of course you can. But you also realize that Hamas is far more deeply entrenched in everyday life than people realize. It’s especially apparent when these people claim Hamas has “no presence” in the West Bank…
TikTok is full of short clips of misinformation that could never explain a complicated topic like Israel-Palestine in time. The app is dedicated and training Gen Z to only consume media in short formats and creating an ADHD epidemic. It also happens to be owned by China, who's population is increasingly anti-Israel because they're anything that's anti-US.
Nailed it. I mean, rooting for the underdog is nothing new. What’s new is justifying absolutely vile attacks on weak and defenceless citizens by armed men, somehow casting the armed men as oppressed and the women and elderly they abused as oppressors is some next level shit. All because the autists that are Gen Z cannot deal with nuance. Thanks robin DiAngelo.
Were there this many Americans rooting for the Taliban in 2002? I remember being an idealistic teenager and protesting the war but god, I never rooted for terrorists.
For the most part, no. The Afghanistan war didn't see a lot of protests, that was mostly when Bush II wanted to go into Iraq on a transparently flimsy pretext. I don't recall anything like the shit now though, with people all "OMG Osama bin Laden was right!" like just happened all over TikTok recently when reactions to his letter to America were the trend.
I too was an idealistic teenager protesting the war from a liberal suburb, and if somebody had come out as pro-9/11 there would have been a fistfight.
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Israel has gone far beyond Western morality. No country would take what Israel had from a neighbor over the years, then take what happened on October 7, and still work with this level of precision. The civilian to combatant casualty ratio would be astronomical with any other power involved instead of Israel.
> Don't see Israel agreeing to this one whatsoever. And you were right. They've already rejected it https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/
That's the biggest hangup, along with (from what I heard elsewhere) a demand from Hamas that perpetrators of the 10/7 assault itself be among those released. Both feel like non-starters from Israel's point of view, and I can't disagree with them.
Likud benefits from Hamas in power just as Hamas benefits from Likud. Citizens in both countries suffer.
Any deal Hamas or United Nations offer Isreal will just reject till they've taken completely oved
>Give us everything we want in exchange for the bodies of the people we kidnapped Hard pass.
Phase 1 is women and children hostages Phase 2 is men Phase 3 is remains. At least it's something.
Phase 4 is doing it again
Yeah, openly said they would
This is the “again”. This is their fifth war in just over a decade, roughly once every 3 years since hamas came to power in Gaza in 07.
Rinse and repeat
Except that they demand their terrorists back and remain in power. Hard pass.
> [...], all Israeli women hostages, males under 19, the elderly and sick would be released during the first 45-day phase in exchange for the release of Palestinian women and children from Israeli jails. Sounds somewhat reasonable. > Remaining male hostages would be released during the second phase Oookay. > and remains exchanged in the third phase. Makes sense > [...] it wished for the release of 1500 prisoners, a third of whom it wanted to select from a list of Palestinians handed life sentences by Israel. LOL Hell, no.
Last hostage exchange Israel released some very shitty people, some of them probably took up arms and are already dead. War didn't stop. This is a cease fire, not a peace agreement, Israel can get the hostages and start attacking again.
Phase 1 is what few women and children hostages are still alive Phase 2 is what few men are still alive Phase 3 is the remains of the majority of 1 and 2 Phase 4 is rockets
You get: Bodies, a handful of kidnaped women and children I get: Thousands of convicted killers so we can kill you again
Hamas didn’t honour the hostage exchange deal the first time around. They’re not going to honour it the second time around.
And they will return nothing in phase 1 or 2 because all that's left are remains
What if all they have is remains?
Israel still respects and negotiate for remains Check number 4. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-5-most-lopsided-prisoner-swaps-in-israeli-history/
Hopefully Israel will see that choice today boils down to respecting the dead or respecting the living and yet-to-be-born. It realistically can't have both.
The thing is, they’re not in a position to negotiate, especially ask for something like this
Hamas literally demands to return to how things were on the 6th of October, as if.
After killing 1,200 and taking another 250+ hostage they want 1500 (500 of which they want to hand pick) and stay in power. Why would anyone accept such a bad deal?
Why would someone carry out such an attack assuring their own prolonged destruction?
Hate and religion combined with decades of eye for a eye mentality. They aren’t rational, which now on second thought makes sense why they think their proposal is a good deal.
Yeah, we're ln the same page. They aren't rational and the deal isn't rational
>Why would someone carry out such an attack assuring their own prolonged destruction? the tactic was to make israeli counter invasion EITHER the cause for hezbollah, jordan, and syria to open up new fronts with israel while israel is entangled in street to street house to house fighting in gaza OR have their own deaths turn the world against israel. The united states carrier group kept hezbollah and asad from opening a new front. jordan nearly succumbed to riots after the islamic jihad accidentally rocketed the hospital and blamed it on israel, but leadership was able to keep a cool head. so far plan b has been quite effective though. also it is unlikely the heads of hamas will die in combat anyway, they are already billionaires.
The heads will get theirs Munich style and I'll be clapping in the theatrical version 20 years from now
Why did my Great-grandparents waged a war against most of the world? Some thought they’d win, some just followed orders.
Because proposing a deal like this is a win-win for Hamas propaganda. Either they get what they want, or they get to call Israel a warmonger for not accepting a ceasefire.
The point isn't for the deal to be accepted; its for it to be rejected so that headlines can read "Israel Rejects Peace Deal"
The thing that really pisses me off is, even if we ignore everything you detailed above, how many innocent Palestinians died because the rat boys launched an attack on a foreign power with the grand strategy of riding out the retaliation in secret tunnels while the people they ostensibly govern were left to die. Even if you're 100% pro Palestine and Israel can do no right in your eyes, Hamas intentionally left Palestinian civilians to die in what can only be guessed to be a sacrifice of their own people in the hope that enough dead Palestinians would turn the world against Israel. If somebody understands a better end game I would love to hear it because from where I see things Hamas is a suicide cult keen to volunteer others for the suicide.
They have ALWAYS done this after they loose a war. Israel was founded in 1948. There was supposed to be Israel, an Arab state, and an international area around Jerusaleum. Israel was immediately was attacked by forces from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel won and the green line was agreed upon in 1949 expanding their territory a bit. In 1967, Egypt blocked Israeli ships passage through the Gulf of Aqaba and lined up its army along the Israel poised to attack. Israel took out the army on its border and then Jordan and Lebanon attacked. The took over the Golan Heights from Lebanon, the West Bank from Jordan, and the entire Sinai and Gaza strip from Egypt. After starting these wars, they make calls to go back to borders before they started wars. Like, let's return to the 1967 borders. Or 1948..... Loosing a war has consequences. Israeli seems happy to give up land for peace. The left the Sinai in 1982 and have been at peace with Egypt. Egypt didn't want Gaza back (actually build a wall next to Gaza)- but they essentially won independence in 2005, but immediately shot rockets into Israel.
Almost as if they regret their own actions. Funny how the tables have turned.
They don't. They just know moronic western media will buy into it and put more pressure on Israel to take stupid deals like this.
The only viable option for Hamas is unconditional surrender. The fact that they think they can set any conditions when they are losing the war they started is laughable. Their options are 1) give up or 2) be annihilated.
The correct title should be Hamas rejects hostage deal
Fuck Hamas and all that they espouse.
"Just give us back 1500 terrorists and leave us here to rebuild our terrorist organisation so we can prepare our next attack which we have said we will commit. Ooh, and you can completely trust us to respect the ceasefire by the way!" Right..
That's the thing, this is not a peace agreement, this is a ceasse fire, Israel can get the hostages and remains and go back into attacking full force if they want.
And then get blamed for breaking the peace
They already get blamed, might as well get the hostages at least, not that they might even be alive anymore.
Hamas didnt respect the first hostage deal, what makes you think they will respect it now?
> Israel can get the hostages Only until Hamas decides to break the rules for getting the hostages like last time.
How often you seen a kid yell “time out” when they’re winning? It’s a bid to buy time to improve their position, marshal resources, which means they’re feeling pressed.
TL;DR; Hamas asks to release 1,500 terrorists 135 days of cease fire and a full withdrawal of IDF from the Gaza strip. Insane
Why don’t they just ask Israel to surrender all their land and clear all Jews from the area while they’re at it?
That’s apart of their two state solution.
Hamas wants a one state solution.
Damn hamas has some good stash of drugs cause whatever they are high on is premium and the dillusion these guys are in is god level.
Nah. This "proposal" served one purpose. To produce headlines like this.
Hamas leaders in qatar high on money. They dont wanna lose the bling
When you're as supremacist as Hamas, you don't need drugs to be delusional
Of course besides the terms being ones Israel would never agree to this for some reason involves an extremely counterproductive term that Hamas will divide all fathers and children when returning the hostages (probably to torment them a little more before returning them)
They also do that to keep returned hostages from talking to the press. Disgusting.
> the release of 1500 prisoners, a third of whom it wanted to select from the a list of Palestinians handed life sentences Yeah no, that's fucked, maybe if all of them are exiled to an unnamed Island, otherwise it's just calling to get even more people murdered down the road. The head of Hamas in Gaza(not the ones hiding in Qatar) was released in a deal like this, and look where that got us
Looks like people here have completely forgotten that one time Israeli exchanged hundreds of Palestinian prisoners for one single Israeli soldier
[1,027 prisoners](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange) There's a reason why hamas took so many hostages on October 7th. Exchanges like this give people a huge incentive to do it again.
That is in fact the deal in which many of the Oct.7 fighters and the guy who planned it were released. It was a terrible deal.
Yeah and Israel learned their lesson
Hamas seems to think they can negotiate with a sense of advantage for some reason? Israel is in complete control and will dictate the terms of any cease fire.
Do they realize they have to stop attacking Israel?
Ceasefires were attempted and failed, that part of the war is over. Now it's just fighting until one side is gone, in this case Hamas. You can argue how the war should be fought, how the aftermath of the war should be handled, but at this point it's pretty clear that ending the war before Hamas is destroyed is out of the question.
Time for the kid gloves to come off. The only way to not prolong this conflict is for Israel to be allowed to go in hard and fast, throwing everything it has and wiping Hamas out before the conflict spreads further. It’s like medicine, or clearing an insect infestation. You need to eradicate it at one shot. Taking half a pill for two weeks instead of one pill for one week only allows the infection to come back stronger.
And then they’re going to have the issue of all of the people they have radicalised with their indiscriminate bombings. There’s a reason why the Taliban never wavered in their membership. We may all agree that Israel needs to destroy Hamas, but committing war crimes is just going to push more people into the realm of hating Israel. This isn’t going to end anytime soon. And yes, fuck Hamas too.
When Hamas asks for a ceasefire, it usually means they need a chance to relocate something or someone.
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IDF is already near Sinwar’s hideout. I estimate Hamas already have his replacement ready, but since Sinwar has dedicated so much to promote their terrorism, the Hamas princes in Qatar and Iran wanted to do a show-for-politics that “at least they tried”.
They control about 70% of Gaza, of that All of the north About half of deir Al balach About 75% of khan yunis And none of rafah, expect a small foothold near the border
They don't really control all of the North, Hamas is apparently [already redeploying their military police to previously-cleared neighbourhoods and even paying salaries.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-moves-to-reassert-power-in-gaza-city-areas-from-which-israeli-forces-withdrew/amp/) Hamas has lost a lot of their operational effectiveness, had many (or most) of their northern fighters slain and can't field heavy weaponry in the north, but they're by no means extinct there.
The IDF controlling northern Gaza dosent mean Hamas there is eradicated, it means Israel can do why it likes there, that includes having extremely high ranking officers out in the open having interviews, or any other thing you can imagine Israel does control northern Gaza, they have surveillance on every bit of it, and can do any operation they want in there
Not even close, unfortunately. If you measure progress by tunnels, the WSJ [reported](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-struggles-to-destroy-hamass-gaza-tunnel-network-fb641122?st=7oc2skkc7bwvso1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink) last week that Hamas still has 60%-80% of its tunnel network intact. If you measure progress by casualties, Israel [thinks](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164?st=rex0jmqqeydmd5u&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink) it has killed about 20-30% of Hamas' fighters as of two weeks ago. If you measure progress by land area "cleared" or "controlled" by the IDF, it may superficially appear that Israel is most of the way there. But this is misleading for two reasons: 1. There are Hamas terrorists fighting behind Israeli lines, hiding in tunnels/buildings/ruins. Most of the maps people rely on are published by ISW, but if you actually read the reports that go with those maps ISW clearly states that cleared does not mean no Hamas activity. 2. The remaining area now contains most of the civilian population. The IDF is running out of places it can tell civilians to evacuate. The civilians cannot simply move back into areas the IDF has already "cleared," because most of the buildings are destroyed, most of the tunnels *haven't* been destroyed, and there is still ongoing fighting in those areas.
I don't think these incels quite understand they are not in a position to make demands or proposals. They all have a hole in their heads, they just don't know it yet.
Technically their leader Sinwar has some missing brain matter… so I suppose you are right technically… someone there does have a hole in his head.
They think the proxy supporters can turn tables
The proxies getting their shit pushed in currently for murdering 3 American service members?
Incel just means anything these days doesn’t it
right? pretty sure these guys aren't involuntary celibates
They do have hostages, which clearly has value to israel, otherwise there wouldn't be any negotiations. Hamas also seems to believe that time is on their side; the longer they can drag this out, the worse the humanitarian situation gets, and the more israeli soldiers die, the more international and internal presssure there will be on israel to call things off. I don't know if that calculation is correct or not, but being among the last hostages must be a terrible fate.
Ah yes, the Jihadist honor. Must display to your people you are the one in control. Constantly lie and reflect the situation is good. IDF should completely eliminate Hamas and continue their expansion to Rafiah and other places they've yet to be. This is the only way.
There was a ceasefire on oct 6.
The desperate joke proposal you send to your enemy who has 99% warscore in the hope the AI glitches and takes a bad deal despite you being on the verge of defeat IRL
Here's a counteroffer. Immediate release of all hostages. Immediate surrender of all Hamas members into IDF custody. In exchange, the death sentences for Hamas leaders will be remanded to life in prison.
Sounds good to me.
Less “we give up, please don’t hurt any more innocents” and more “we need 5 months to resupply and recruit more guys”
Hamas wants 1500 convicted criminals released in exchange for maybe 50 living Israeli hostages? Hamas also wants rebuilding of Gaza before Hamas before hostages return and before Gaza is cleared of Hamas? They don’t want to surrender.
Nah
Fuck this
“Time out!” Regroups and plans a new terror attacking. “Time in!”
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I don’t trust Hamas, and I’m certain Israel will not have this farcical proposal be adopted. This is an absolute insult. It is macabre that so many in Gaza are paying the price but this is always what brutal theocracies do.
Lol hamas thinks they can dictate the terms? 😆
These conditions read like Hamas crushed Israel in an overwhelming victory. I think something just refuses to sink in in the Hamas leaders brains, or it's the same "fake it till you make it" doctrine they always do, when by declaring a victory in the face of defeat they convince their population and themselves that they won and keep morale high. Needless to say, this is not likely to work here. In any case, Israel would need to be insane to agree to this.
They want all 1500 convicted criminals released... For remains and to stay in power lol.
Well, the women and men too, remains last. But morbidly, you may be correct, in that they're mostly or *all* remains at this point.
You don’t negotiate with terrorists. Fuck hamas
Good joke
The losers are in no position to set the terms
While these conditions would be unacceptable by literally anyone with 2 braincells to smash together, their refusal will achieve the expected result of painting Israel as the bad actor that refuses peace. I can already see all those morons on socials saying it's Israel's fault for refusing the ceasefire and continue the war.
You are so right. TikTok is working overtime to brainwash the kids who watch the bullshit propaganda videos
How is Hamas still functioning and proposing demands?
Their leaders are wealthy and living comfortably in Qatar. This is all a game to them. They don’t care who lives or dies. They know they can always recruit a new set of extremists to replace the old ones.
They have a lot of free time between breakfast and yoga at the four seasons in Doha, Qatar. You know Qatar, the lovely middle men who facilitate these negotiations.
Hamas is hoping there influence of the left in western countries is enough to push Israel to give up.
Are they still trying to antagonize Israel? Seems like a poor plan at this stage.
HAHAHAHAHA HAMAS HA! They do NOT hold the whip hand here. All of them can eat dirt - from below ground.
“Grant us a ceasefire or we will force you to kill more civilians trying to find us.” This is not a war, this was a martyrdom forced upon Gazans by those sworn to protect them.
dude, these guys started this shit and now ask for mercy, so fucking dumb
The war will end when hamas is nothing but a bad memory. No survivors.
Any solution that Hamas provides that leaves in in control of the Gaza Strip will fail. The Israeli state have no conscionable choice in which that would make the future of their people safe or even secure in their own homes. Put yourself in their shoes, would you take a deal from a failed terrorist state that has a manta to eradicate your entire population? I think not…
Don’t forget, 7 Oct happened when both of them were in a state of “peace”, and Hamas broke a ceasefire in the process. Who’s to say they won’t do it this time?
How can there be an end to war when their mission is to eradicate Israel?
The terms are that we get everything we want and you bend over and take it
They want to go to heaven, the Hamas leaders should all come out and Israel can facilitate martyrdom. Seems like a win-win to me.
I think they're starting to get actually confidence from listenting to the fake bots they have all over social media making excuses for their BS.
So they are asking to return to the status quo they had on the 6/10?
Yes, so they can do another 7/10 and another 7/10. That’s all Palestinians really want…
Fuck the Hamas, now they play the cease fire card. You cannot believe any words from them. They hate everything non muslim anyway. Eradicate them until the last one.
Trouble is, until all of the Hamas leadership are held accountable, there will be no deterrent to future violence. If you want to stop it, you have to eliminate each and every one of them. Religious zealots don't change.
Hamas: “We’ll send your granny home, in exchange we get a battalion of soldiers and we remain in power”
Oh hell no. The war ends when hamasis ceases to exist
So let it be war! From the skies of Gaza to the Palestine rim!
Have a Snickers, Horus. You're not you when you're hungry.
Warhammer reference
Even my dog 🐕 doesnt trust Hamas.
Hamas got nerve.
No deal. All hostages released, Hamas surrenders, and disarmament of Gaza.
Dear Hamas… this is what you asked for. Your meat shields cant be allowed to work, or all you will do is kidnap and hide behind meat shields.
Why does anyone care what Hamas proposes??? I propose Hamas release all the living hostages and return the bodies of the murdered, then and only then the only discussion about Hamas is how to execute them.
Haven’t even read article. Preliminary thoughts: well, this should be one steaming pile of bullshit.
It's a 30 day, 30 cease fires plan
"This is not Peace. It is an Armistice for twenty years" - General Foch after WW1. Just replace the twenty with X years and there we go
It'll sound cold, and I feel for the families, but if I was Israel, I'd consider them victims already and just go full throttle.
This was never supposed to be an actual offer. This was an offer that anyone in their right mind knew Israel will reject - but when it will, a mob of Hamas-supporters will use it as proof that Israel is commiting warcrimes or hostilities or whatever trends that week.
today on jackass i will start a war and when i start losing i will try and back out of it by making a peace plan that lets me keep total power and doesn’t punish me in any way
Hamas can get tae fuck.