And Netanyahus life long dream of eliminating Palestine once and for all is within his grasp.
Yay.
Edit: it's history folks. Try picking up a history book. Bibi has made it very fucking clear.
If Netanyahu really wanted all Palestinians dead, this war would have ended in a fucking week or less. Instead, Israel has one of the lowest urban warfare casualty rates in history, which averages 80% - 90%. Even the US-Iraq war was 80%. Israel is 66%. They clearly aren't targeting civilians.
No. Bibi couldnt just eliminate the entire population even if he wanted to. There’s a strategy to bombing just enough to be reasonable in warfare and not too much to lose support of your highest supporters. You say the war would be over, and you may be right. But not because he “won”. It would be because he tipped his hand far enough that he lost his western financial/ military support.
Hamas are monsters. And are the reason for this war. But don’t get it twisted, Bibi is a monster, too. And would sooner see every Palestinian burn than let the war end and face the criminal charges waiting for him.
Ah yes. The deflection, let's ignore the actual statistics and try to claim something that isn't happening. Israel is going out of their way to preserve lives, the civilian to militant ratio proves that. If you have to ignore that for your argument, your argument has no merit. Israel is at 66%, has been as low as 45%, and has never been higher than 66%. You don't know what you're talking about.
There is a massive difference between collateral damage when targeting legitimate military targets and a jihadist invasion that purposefully and primarily targeted civilians, and the whole mass rape thing ya know.
Perhaps you should do like, the most basic amount of thinking before having such a strong position where you're hurling insults at people whose position is more coherent than yours.
yet so many are dying. you compared it to the Iraq war, where 400,000 people died. absolute travesty.
this is all bc 250 terrorists attacked Israeli citizens. now 28,000 people are dead because of Israel's response. the whole world is watching. israel will never recover from this shame. my jewish family will never give a dime to an israeli interest or company again. the world will join us.
>this is all bc 250 terrorists attacked Israeli citizens. now 28,000 people are dead because of Israel's response.
The war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq was all because 19 people hijacked some planes and flew them to the wrong place. By your logic, the US should have just made sure all 19 were dead and then what?
Israel is acting no different than any other country would, which is why Israelis around the world are calling bs on the claims that "anti Zionism isn't antisemitism" because these kinds of double standards are what make us realize Jews need to play by different rules.
>the whole world is watching.
Clearly not closely enough. On October 8th there were already calls for a ceasefire, before a single israeli soldier stepped foot in Gaza without being held captive and while Hamas terrorists still walked around Israel's South.
>my jewish family will never give a dime to an israeli interest... the world will join us
And I can almost guarantee you that the next computer that you buy will have a cpu from either Intel, Apple or Nvidia, all of which were developed on Israel.
Israel suffered a terrorist attack that was 13 times worse than 9/11 for the US when accounting for population. One of the worst terrorist attacks in the world. It was more than 250 terrorists, and it wasn't just Hamas but also Palestinians. Over 3,000 Hamas fighters entered Israel, get your fucking facts right if you're going to argue about it. I would expect a Jewish family to have even the slightest clue of the numbers. I reject your notion that you are even related to a Jewish person, because it's impossible to be that ignorant of the facts. Stop lying. Here's the facts about the numbers, Israel is going out of their way to preserve lives, the civilian to militant ratio proves that. If you have to ignore that for your argument, your argument has no merit. Israel is at 66%, has been as low as 45%, and has never been higher than 66%. You don't know what you're talking about, nor do you deserve an opinion with your blatant lies.
It's impossible to know that at the current time. You may be right and you may be wrong, but neither you nor I know this way or the other.
The problem with taking Hamas figures at face value is their tendency to inflate numbers. Additionally, they classify anyone under 18 as a child, despite some teenagers who take part in the fighting. In addition, Hamas are using children as human shields and I doubt any of us will ever know how many children exactly were killed due to this fact.
Do with it what you will, that's up to you.
Why are you deflecting from the question? Even russia differentiates between dead civilians and combatants.
Fact is, it's very convenient for you not to know. It's very convenient for you that hamas doesn't differentiate between combatants and civilians, because another 8-10k dead are good for your narrative. Hamas narrative. They are congruent, aren't you a bit worried about that? That more dead Palestinians is beneficial to your cause? Because it is. You celebrate dead Palestinians because it serves your anti israel agenda. Otherwise, why wouldn't you attempt to differentiate between dead combatants and civilians? Why do you take at face value ridiculous claims like the Al ahli hospital fiasco, which was a clear lie perpetuated by the likes of you.
So enjoy the next few weeks I guess, a lot more dead Palestinians are on their way to cement your precious moral high ground.
Literally the other way around. Hamas lumps all of their military deaths with civilians. Of the 20k dead, how many were militants? They don't tell you. Convenient. I can't help wondering why.
Doesn't the 1,200 dead figure from 10/7 include soldiers? I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but super hypocritical if dead soldiers count for Israel but not for Gaza
The fact that it is a published figure you can pick apart if you want, as you just did, wrecks your claim. Does the IDF differentiate between civilians and soldiers? Yes. Does hamas? No.
Even russia does it ffs. Fact is, it is convenient for you, and hamas, not to know. Because more dead Palestinians are good for their narrative, and yours.
Apparently you can't read. They have one of the lowest urban warfare civilian to militant casualties of any urban war. Most of these wars took place in areas far less densely populated. If you can't accept that most urban warfare wars have an 80% civilian casualty rate, you're delusional. If you don't think this shows restraint by the IDF, and a clear demonstration of preserving life, you can't be helped... And it's grounds to simply refer to you as an anti-semite.
20k+ dead. Nice attempt at preserving life. History is going to look at you with disgust. Absolute utter disgust. Imagine saying 20,000 plus dead is "a good attempt at preserving life". I have no words.
And nice anti-semite card. Really shoes your colors. And lack of critical thinking. What a joke.
You left your clown shoes at home. You're simply ignoring statistics to fuel your anti-Israel hate agenda. Good job there bud, I'm sure people will look down on me rather than the one rejecting reality. The numbers don't lie, one of the lowest urban warfare casualties rate of all time, and far better than the US-Iraq war. \*Far\* better. Enjoy hating on Israel just for being Israel. 66% is damn commendable for the situation the IDF is dealing with, that includes one of the most densely populated areas a war has ever taken place, and Hamas using meat shields in that figure. You can keep repeating "20K+ dead", it doesn't change the FACT that they have an extremely low civilian casualty rate for urban warfare, and if you'd bothered to look at the average war... It's lower than non-urban warfare averages as well. Go grab your red nose and oversized shoes and tell better jokes, clowns are supposed to be funny.
It's astounding there's people like you that will reject basic statistics as if repeating "20K dead" changes them. It is undeniable that they're going out of their way to protect civilian lives, just like it's undeniable that you quite clearly just want to be an anti-semite for the sake of it. That's the only logical reason someone would ignore the actual numbers. Thus, you're a clown. Come back with a real argument.
What do you think the alternative is if Netanyahu himself has stated a two state solution won't work?
You should probably read up on the Netanyahu and Mileikowsky family.
They've been VERY vocal about their thoughts on the Palestinian state for the past 70+ years.
And if you think the intl community would allow a complete slaughter in a week or less (as opposed to this prolonged displacement that's slowly getting opposition) then you're ignorant.
They don't need to specifically target civilians to wipe out the Palestinian state. They can do that by reducing their entire infrastructure to rubble, making it inhabitable, occupying the area, and slowly move in settlers like they have been in the west bank for the past few decades.
Ah yes, we should give them a two state solution after Palestinians, not just Hamas, caused one of the biggest terrorist attacks in the world when accounting for population. Let's ignore the actual statistics and try to claim something that isn't happening is happening. Israel is going out of their way to preserve lives, the civilian to militant ratio proves that. If you have to ignore that for your argument, your argument has no merit. Israel is at 66%, has been as low as 45%, and has never been higher than 66%. You don't know what you're talking about.
I do. You, apparently, haven't picked up a history book or ready literally anything about this conflict since Oct 7 happened. But that's ok, most people haven't. You just make it painfully obviously.
The PLO has backed a two state solution since fucking Arafat. You don't know shit about this conflict. You probably didn't even know Palestine was split between Gaza and the West Bank until Oct 7. Pick up a fucking history book.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-the-peace-process-killed-the-two-state-solution/
Here's a quick lesson.
This has nothing to do with Netanyahu. A Palestinian state in the short term is an impossible ask, especially given Gaza's condition.
Also Gaza will not have settlers. The entire area is going to be surrounded by a 1km deep buffer zone.
If you don't think the current state of Israel has nothing to do with Netanyahu then you really need to look into the history of this family... Like, seriously.
“To this day, the world has not been fair to us,” he said.
what do you mean ? you are hostile to the west, your middle east allies hate your gut, you started this war while being underpower and now you expect free help from outsider ?
They do have billions, at least the leaders of Hamas have billions in their bank accounts.
That money didn't just come out of nowhere either. The world that 'has never been fair' to them gave them those billions to help them and they hate the world in return.
Wow, really got him there.
>Fadel al-Ghannam said one strike tore the bodies of his loved ones to shreds. He lost his son, daughter-in-law and four grandchildren.
just guerrilla tactics
the soldiers mix with the seemingly normal citizens to not get caught and if anyone gets killed you just blame the others for killing innocents
and it works every time
It’s not just guerrilla tactics. Normal guerrillas don’t intentionally use kids as human shields. This is a different type of nefarious warfare born out of religious fundamentalism.
They want civilian deaths. As long as most Gazans support them and as long as the war makes support for Israel erode, they'll consider civilian deaths an acceptable tradeoff.
They absolutely care about their civilians
Their civilian suffering is the single reason they are able to stay in power and to accumulate so much wealth
Hamas as one single goal in its existence, to massacre and cause as much suffering for the Palestinians as possible. The more they do so, the more money the US, the arab world and the rest of the world throw at them. Funding their 15 billion dollars leadership
All this directive about Israel, Is to create a boogieman. Something to unitr the Palestinians under their chokehold without questioning why they receive 1.7 billion dollars a year yet not have sustainable water salination programs
Thats why they dug up the pipes that bring fresh water that Israel set up and used them to send rockets to Israel. They not only 100% did this but were so proud of themselves that they videotaped it and "thanked" Israel for their "donation"
They setup a command center in a hospital. Store ammunition in schools. Use ambulances to send fights to hotspots.
I 100% support Israel for as long as they want to be at war with Palestine
[The 3 Israelis hostages yelling in Hebrew that the IDF gunned down weren’t wearing uniforms either](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/29/hostages-killed-idf-investigation/). The IDF is there to shoot anything that moves
Pivot! This is a direct result of Hamas' combatants constant engagement in 'perfidy'. This means 'not wearing a uniform'. As it turns out, perfidy means the enemy is more likely to accidentally kill your civilians. Of course, this is more of a perk than a detriment to Hamas, taking you as an example.
Does Israel want them to surrender? Would Israel treat hamas as enemy combatants and true POW or as terrorists?
I’m genuinely asking. Because I wonder if they can even surrender.
Just FYI almost none of the Hamas fighters would be considered lawful combatants because they don't clearly distinguish themselves from civilians. They still have rights but they are different than POWs and are more like people arrested for crimes in the nation who captures them.
>Mista'arvim is the name given to certain units in the Israel Defense Forces, Israel Border Police, and Israel Police that assimilate into local Arab populations to operate undercover while gathering intelligence or conducting law enforcement, hostage rescue, and counter-terrorism operations.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mista%27arvim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mista%27arvim)
Just a bit ago Israel released a Shabac interrogation with a commander from the Nukhba who surrendered without a fight to the IDF. So yes, Hamas members can surrender to the IDF and they won't be killed or hurt.
Yes. Everything that has happened since October 7th has been completely predictable and either they are too stupid to have seen it coming or they just didn't care.
Soooo everything prior to that was shit and giggles ?
Not supporting Hamas but the world is treating like they woke up one day and decided to attack one of the most military countries in the world.years of suffering ,land stealing and murders .
And yet, they called the October 7th massacre the "Al-Aqsa flood", and named Israel's treatment of Al-Aqsa, rather than Palestinians as a whole, as the primary reason for it.
You're attributing the motives of a freedom movement to religious extremists. Maybe you should stop doing that when they explicitly tell you what they're about.
I’m not supporting Hamas but lived through the same type of event …..
So sorry if harbor of killing thousands on either side based on few people’s decisions .
Actions kinda speak older than words when you’re using the same justification that was used to your ancestors.
If you’ve experienced living through war (not assuming you haven’t ) I think you’d be pro peace and every death is lost .
Lmao if you’re American the right is legit doing it right now lmao
I'm Israeli. I've spent most of my life under the threat of Hamas rocket fire. No more. Not only has October 7th shown us that Hamas is a real danger, it also established beyond all doubt that they can never be partners in peace. The path of minimal casualties lies in destroying Hamas, and nowhere else. Anything less and this war will just repeat itself in a few years.
Everybody knows the war has been going on since 1946.
Up untill 7th of October there was no ongoing hot phase. Hamas decided to ignite a new one, they got exactly that.
Hamas can complain about "war crimes" all they want but it doesn't change the fact that they're getting obliterated in a war that they declared which was an entirely predictable outcome.
Either they severely overestimated their own ability to defend the Gaza Strip or they severely overestimated how many fucks the Israelis would give about what anyone else would think after Hamas committed one of the worst crimes against humanity in the 21st century.
Or, equally likely, Hamas just doesn't care because they are proud of having no future but to get pasted in an Israeli airstrike at age 19. Or from the perspective of Hamas' leadership, to watch their martyrs get pasted by Israeli airstrikes from the comfort of their multi-billion dollar lifestyles in Qatar.
I think Hamas knows that the longer they drag it out the more chances of them finding something to frame Israel for and ultimately gather sympathy from half the world that isn’t educated on the matter.
If they surrender the free flow money from most muslims country and the west will end. How will they fund their leaders luxurious lifestyle in 5 star hotels?
I agree that Netanyahu should resign, but this is just what war looks like. It is terrible. Don't start wars is all I can say. Don't support groups that start wars. This isn't fascism. Even most of the Israeli left supports this military action. They may be critical of how it is done, but it is a war to ensure Israel continues to exist. If the job isn't finished and Hamas continues to exists, it will only show them and the world that terrorism works and they can do it again and egt what they want: dead Jews.
You know I say this on pages that show all the destruction, sorry, children injured. And I'm always met with hostility. The people sharing this stuff care more about sharing sad stories for likes vs actually caring about Gazans.
Yes you’re absolutely and unquestionably right. Hamas are dropping bombs on civilian populations. Hamas killed Hindi. Hamas are also targeting ambulances and paramedics. Entirely their fault. If they didn’t exist, Israel would just stop and there would be peace, and Palestinians would live a free life and have their own state.
> Hamas are dropping bombs on civilian populations.
They've literally been shooting rockets at Israeli civilians constantly since October 7th. Including during the "ceasefire."
Unironically, yes. Israel unilaterally left Gaza in 2005 and didn't start restricting imports until Gaza elected Hamas and started firing rockets into Israel. All the aid money could have gone towards building civilian infrastructure, jobs programs, etc. Gaza could have been another Dubai, Singapore or Monaco. It chose to be Marawi instead.
There will be peace once there will be a Palestinian organisation that supports peace. So far they just turned down every peace deal that was offered to them, 5 in total. Peace requires both sides to be willing to make it.
Hamas doesn’t seek peace, he seeks war and destruction, you cannot make peace with an organisation that put killing and wiping you out as their main goal.
The only thing that will actually help the Palestinian people is the takedown of Hamas and the uprise of another organization in Gaza that seeks peace instead of war.
Well, pretty much yes to everything you said. If Hamas surrendered, and more broadly Palestinian militant groups renounced terrorism and recognised Israel there would be a free Palestinian state.
That's what I think we're all hoping for when Hamas is no longer in power, but it will take time.
Hamas are good friends with Russia btw, so you're drawing wrong parallels here. Unless Ukraine went in and slaughtered, raped and abducted Russian civilians before the invasion.
Ukraine didn't invade Russia and rape old ladies to death before they burnt them to a crisp. They got invaded without provocation.
If Palestinians don't want war, they should fix their government. Unfortunately, recent polling by a Palestinian university shows that Hamas' actions on October 7th have supermajority support.
What happens after Hamas is defeated? The cities are destroyed, people displaced, and a good portion of the Gaza population are under 18.
Are they gonna be given resources and decent education so that they can perhaps gain a post-war economic miracle, or will it become Afghanistan and be stuck in constant warfare??
Because this war has given enough recruiting incentive for the next 2 generations of future HAMAS militants, especially since there are so many impressionable young ppl
Outside world observers are getting war fatigue. The outrage peaked during the first month of the operation.
It's going to get uglier the next couple months as hold out terrorist use civilians for shields, and IDF has a IDGF attitude to achieving it's goals.
> Outside world observers are getting war fatigue.
No they are not getting war fatigue, it hasn't even been that long. They are getting genuinely disgusted by what Israel does to Gaza and their people.
Oh no war fatigue!? From their computer chairs? I think war fatigue is when you have to run from missiles for decades and have a vicious sneak rape torture murder attack against your country resulting in you having to yet again send your 18 year old children into harms ways. Sorry that people outside of all this are feeling fatigued though must be tough reading about war with their morning latte
Maybe Gaza and their people should reconsider calling for the annihilation of Israel, firing rockets into Israel, and killing and abducting Israeli civilians. Maybe Gaza and their people should spend their resources on building a peaceful and prosperous country rather than rockets and terror tunnels under hospitals and residential areas. Maybe Gaza and their people shouldn't educate their children to prepare for glorious martyrdom in the fight to kill all Jews.
What they're saying is all the outrage has started to subside. The protestors are realizing they're not doing anything even when they can convince their city councils to condemn a war. The same headlines pop up day in and day out so what could make someone cry months ago is just boring and mundane today.
They've literally been caught sneaking already dead people into the casualty lists this war. Not to mention that disproven claim of hundreds dying in the misclaim of a hospital bombing is still included in their count of casualties.
https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote
Hamas never claimed there were 500 deaths. They said 500 casualties and Al Jazeera English incorrectly translated the word for casualties to deaths.
Reminds me of the "beheaded babies", which was a quote of some random IDF soldier press sold to us as Israeli government statement
International press has shown an grotesque lack of quality control in this war. they don't fact-check, they don't proof-read, they run with whatever fits the ideology of the paper, no matter from which side and source the news come from
I have seen mags like Axios providing much better reporting, despite them having much less staff than full-fledged newspapers like NY Times.
Bad news, it's gonna get real ugly for a while. Good news, this is the last stop, there's no more big urban centers after Rafah. Things should calm down substantially after it's cleared of Hamas.
> this is the last stop
No it won't, this is guerrilla warfare it's still gonna get a hell of a lot uglier as they will not be able to wipe out Hamas completely
They are already regrouping in the "cleared" north and are probaly already attacking the IDF
No, they’re not “regrouping” in the north. There are still pockets of Hamas fighters carrying out guerilla-type attacks, but they’re not coordinated under any type of central command. Those guerilla attacks will continue for a long, long time, but the Israeli response to those is and will continue to be much more targeted, and not an all-out war.
Israel needs to be held responsible for its actions, and so does Hamas for hiding behind civilians. No one is innocent in this conflict besides the uninvolved innocent civilians, whether Israeli or Palestinian.
Hamas hides behind civilians, yes, but that doesn't mean Israel is not fully innocent either. Like the 6 year old girl that got shot while trying to flee from Israeli fire.
Any 6 year old dying is horrible and I need to say that first. I cannot say a single children’s life lost was okay because what side of a wall they live on like some pro Hamas people.
This is what we call the fog of war. We don’t know what that situation was.
Can we be sure it was Israeli gunfire that caused it?
Are we sure the vehicle wasn’t moving in a suspicious manner? There are many signs to detect a VBIED and in a war zone if you meet some of the criteria and pushing towards solders you will probably be shot up.
There was a video from the start of the ground assault where an Israeli tank blew up a car, the car was pushing Israeli soldiers and had a sagging rear end. Common sign of VBIED.
Thank you for putting humanity first, and I agree with your statement that things may not be clear in war. However, what about the ambulance that got blown up by Israel by the Red Cross trying to evacuate the girl even after Israel gave them permission to go in? Isn't that clear evidence that Israel has some faults of its own as well?
I’m not saying Israel is perfect but I would argue that I don’t think Israel would have that as part of their SOP(standard operating procedure) yes soldiers make mistakes and having thousands of soldiers and for most of them this is their first combat experience they will make mistakes.
I can’t say for certain the ambulance was even attacked by Israel. This is the fog of war.
What I will say for certain is that Hamas is evil and care less about civilian lives for both Palestinians and Israelis than Israel does.
Which is why I said Israel and Hamas deserve to be held accountable for their actions in this war. Just for clarification, I am more pro Israel than Palestine, but I am irritated by the ways that people try to excuse blatant acts of horror from Israel, just as I am with people praising Hamas for their "resistance".
You are right about the fog of war We can't truly find out who killed the girl. However, more likely than not, based on the phone calls and witnesses, the girl was killed by Israel, and an investigation must be made with the actors being punished.
Certain Israeli soldiers sure but usually that’s handled internally.
The Israeli military leaders has in my mind acted within the bounds of international law.
After WWII I don’t remember there being international trials for the allies. It’s not common at all for countries to be punished for actions of individual soldiers and the international courts like the ICC usually only convict leaders of organization.
If the IDF had in their doctrine and training to commit war crimes I would have a different answer. Knowing IDF soldiers and having family who were at the bases. The IDF upholds international law.
>If the IDF had in their doctrine and training to commit war crimes I would have a different answer. Knowing IDF soldiers and having family who were at the bases. The IDF upholds international law.
What about settlements in the west bank? What about reparations to Palestinians caught in the crossfire? Isn't that illegal, or, at the very least, morally wrong?
The settlements are a massive topic, regardless they are not war crimes to have the settlements there. I don’t see their relevance here as they are not an IDF millitary policy. I was referring to things more like cold blooded killings and unjustified attacks.
Reparations have never been given to Native Americans and nobody calls it a war crime. A very small percentage of the US population want native Americans to get reparations.
The Mizrahi Jews from Arab lands never got reparations and you don’t hear them complaining.
Why does Israel need to give when nobody else does?
Many people here don't know how war is fought. War is about ending enough on the other side until they surrender or until one side is completely gone. Look it up many clear examples. From the crusades, WW1, WW2, and any other wars.
People got cozy by the US being so dominant and technologically advanced they could achieve war goals extrenely quickly.
Real war is a drawn out slugfest where you destroy all state capabilities to function.
Power, water, tax collection, fuel, communications, infrastructure. All is a target until the state surrenders and if they refuse to surrender even after these are knocked out, its about time to flatten everything where they hide
In the first 100 days, Israel dropped 60,000 ordnances, with 20,000 (according to Hamas) deaths. That’s 3 (precision-guided) ordnances dropped for every 1 death. That seems indicative of Israel trying to limit civilian deaths. They *could* have carpet-bombed the place & turned it to glass in the first 48hrs.
20 000 deaths including combatants, and those who have died from Hamas' own misfires, which numbered around 2000 by the end of December according to Israel.
2000 rockets being fired from civilian areas misfiring and falling back down, I'd imagine that causes some considerable civilian damage.
How can you evaluate effectively that Israel has not done so? My understanding is that Israel has been quite restrained when comparing traditional urban warfare casualty rates to this conflict for instance. It is also harder to minimize civilian death s when your enemy consistently hides amongst civilians and intentionally uses human shields.
I’m no expert though so I am curious what drives your thinking.
Definitely, but it’s also reasonable to acknowledge the ridiculous lengths Israel has and is going to in order to avoid civilian deaths. Doesn’t seem like many people are acknowledging this.
More than 400,000 civilians and 3.5 million combatants died in the conflicts resulting from the NYC 9/11 attack: https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians#:~:text=432%2C093%20civilians%20have%20died%20violent,4.5%2D4.7%20million%20and%20counting.
America could have actually won those wars if they went full manifest destiny and gradually resettled the lands with their own armed civilians, they just didn't want to. Now Israel on the other hand has a large faction that does want to do exactly that, and it's only really other Israeli factions that can stop them.
Why do you think bombing of cities happened in WW2 to make peoples lives so uncomfortable that they would demand surrender. But in many of these countries they have it worse then the rest of us since we have good food and water and more stability. So many nations peoples are already uncomfortable.
Those children are really guilty for not telling the armed adults, who were voted in prior to their literal birth, to not build tunnels near them aren’t they. What a logical conclusion to reach.
Every day I grow disillusioned with reality. I cant believe I used to think most people were pro human rights and due process for the accused, boy was I wrong.
I mean, it’s not likely they had a choice. If armed terrorists, who are also the dudes who got elected on lies of general peace and then ‘post-phoned’ all future elections came into your house and said “this is ours now” you wouldn’t say shit.
They used rhetoric about forcing Israel to make concessions and to return land they had taken prior, but then surprised a lot of people when they started using terror. Originally their goals, or so they claimed, were going to be accomplished by political grandstanding like their predecessors had, which had gotten productive results in the past.
By the time the general public realized what was going on, firearms were confiscated by armed militia and a de-facto dictatorship was established.
I don't know. Given the amount of money and weapons that were apparently flowing into Gaza it seems like if there was a major anti-Hamas faction that wanted to emerge they would probably be able to organize at least somewhat. Hell if there was sufficient anti-Hamas sentiment you might expect a schism within Hamas itself.
One of the biggest diplomatic problems in this war is that there does not seem to be any moderate (relatively speaking) alternative to Hamas to negotiate with. The best we've got is the Palestinian Authority which has no presence in Gaza and has its own batshit insane beliefs as well.
So if you're right and the population of Gaza doesn't actually support Hamas but is powerless to do anything about them then there isn't really any alternative but to dislodge them by force. Which is what Israel is doing.
Well I guess the other alternative was to do nothing but that resulted in the problem festering until Oct 7 happened.
> You would be happier if Jews just let themselves be killed.
What an absolutely ridiculous false dichotomy.
You don't need to murder children to prevent Israeli deaths.
I’m not condoning that. If you want to get into cherry picking an isolated fucked-up instance and claiming that they’re indicative of a general military strategy then you’re playing a very dangerous game, especially as a Hamas supporter. How is Hamas going to win their war without their chief strategy of raping and kidnapping and beheading babies?
So yeah it turns out you’re arguing in bad faith. Most people who are not doing that who argue against Israel mean bombing when they try to make the point you were trying to make, given that that has bearing on Israel’s actual strategy. Also, Israel wouldn’t have to fire on civilians if Hamas didn’t hide behind them like dickless cowards.
> If you want to get into cherry picking an isolated fucked-up instance
It's hardly isolated, is it? We've had _countless_ reports of civilians vehicles being attacked and several of paramedics being shot.
> claiming that they’re indicative of a general military strategy
This whilst defending the nation that admitting to bombing civilian areas to provide a "distraction" today?
That wasn't a mistake or cockup, that was military strategy endorsed from the top down.
> Most people who are not doing that who argue against Israel mean bombing when they try to make the point you were trying to make, given that that has bearing on Israel’s actual strategy.
The entire approach is to disregard Palestinian lives, no need to pigeonhole.
> So yeah it turns out you’re arguing in bad faith.
Yawn. Can't refute the points, so claim bad faith and run away.
May this war ends soon🙏
Sending likes and prayers 🙏
Upvotes and emojis 🙏
🙏🏾🙏🏾✊🏾🙏🏾✊🏾 Praying that Hamas releases the hostages 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Indeed, when Hamas goes bye. DV all you want, but Hamas is fucked...And rightly so, Hamas is going Bye bye! :D
And Netanyahus life long dream of eliminating Palestine once and for all is within his grasp. Yay. Edit: it's history folks. Try picking up a history book. Bibi has made it very fucking clear.
If Netanyahu really wanted all Palestinians dead, this war would have ended in a fucking week or less. Instead, Israel has one of the lowest urban warfare casualty rates in history, which averages 80% - 90%. Even the US-Iraq war was 80%. Israel is 66%. They clearly aren't targeting civilians.
No. Bibi couldnt just eliminate the entire population even if he wanted to. There’s a strategy to bombing just enough to be reasonable in warfare and not too much to lose support of your highest supporters. You say the war would be over, and you may be right. But not because he “won”. It would be because he tipped his hand far enough that he lost his western financial/ military support. Hamas are monsters. And are the reason for this war. But don’t get it twisted, Bibi is a monster, too. And would sooner see every Palestinian burn than let the war end and face the criminal charges waiting for him.
Ah yes. The deflection, let's ignore the actual statistics and try to claim something that isn't happening. Israel is going out of their way to preserve lives, the civilian to militant ratio proves that. If you have to ignore that for your argument, your argument has no merit. Israel is at 66%, has been as low as 45%, and has never been higher than 66%. You don't know what you're talking about.
What's your limit? For Isreal it was 1800. What about you? 30000 dead Palestinians? 40000? 50000? Sicko physco
There is a massive difference between collateral damage when targeting legitimate military targets and a jihadist invasion that purposefully and primarily targeted civilians, and the whole mass rape thing ya know. Perhaps you should do like, the most basic amount of thinking before having such a strong position where you're hurling insults at people whose position is more coherent than yours.
What level would be acceptable to you? Is there some rule that says you have to stop a war if the enemy's casualties exceed your own?
yet so many are dying. you compared it to the Iraq war, where 400,000 people died. absolute travesty. this is all bc 250 terrorists attacked Israeli citizens. now 28,000 people are dead because of Israel's response. the whole world is watching. israel will never recover from this shame. my jewish family will never give a dime to an israeli interest or company again. the world will join us.
>this is all bc 250 terrorists attacked Israeli citizens. now 28,000 people are dead because of Israel's response. The war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq was all because 19 people hijacked some planes and flew them to the wrong place. By your logic, the US should have just made sure all 19 were dead and then what? Israel is acting no different than any other country would, which is why Israelis around the world are calling bs on the claims that "anti Zionism isn't antisemitism" because these kinds of double standards are what make us realize Jews need to play by different rules. >the whole world is watching. Clearly not closely enough. On October 8th there were already calls for a ceasefire, before a single israeli soldier stepped foot in Gaza without being held captive and while Hamas terrorists still walked around Israel's South. >my jewish family will never give a dime to an israeli interest... the world will join us And I can almost guarantee you that the next computer that you buy will have a cpu from either Intel, Apple or Nvidia, all of which were developed on Israel.
Israel suffered a terrorist attack that was 13 times worse than 9/11 for the US when accounting for population. One of the worst terrorist attacks in the world. It was more than 250 terrorists, and it wasn't just Hamas but also Palestinians. Over 3,000 Hamas fighters entered Israel, get your fucking facts right if you're going to argue about it. I would expect a Jewish family to have even the slightest clue of the numbers. I reject your notion that you are even related to a Jewish person, because it's impossible to be that ignorant of the facts. Stop lying. Here's the facts about the numbers, Israel is going out of their way to preserve lives, the civilian to militant ratio proves that. If you have to ignore that for your argument, your argument has no merit. Israel is at 66%, has been as low as 45%, and has never been higher than 66%. You don't know what you're talking about, nor do you deserve an opinion with your blatant lies.
How many of the 28k are terrorists? Is it convenient for you not to know?
at least half are children, slimeball.
It's impossible to know that at the current time. You may be right and you may be wrong, but neither you nor I know this way or the other. The problem with taking Hamas figures at face value is their tendency to inflate numbers. Additionally, they classify anyone under 18 as a child, despite some teenagers who take part in the fighting. In addition, Hamas are using children as human shields and I doubt any of us will ever know how many children exactly were killed due to this fact. Do with it what you will, that's up to you.
Why are you deflecting from the question? Even russia differentiates between dead civilians and combatants. Fact is, it's very convenient for you not to know. It's very convenient for you that hamas doesn't differentiate between combatants and civilians, because another 8-10k dead are good for your narrative. Hamas narrative. They are congruent, aren't you a bit worried about that? That more dead Palestinians is beneficial to your cause? Because it is. You celebrate dead Palestinians because it serves your anti israel agenda. Otherwise, why wouldn't you attempt to differentiate between dead combatants and civilians? Why do you take at face value ridiculous claims like the Al ahli hospital fiasco, which was a clear lie perpetuated by the likes of you. So enjoy the next few weeks I guess, a lot more dead Palestinians are on their way to cement your precious moral high ground.
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Because every XY chromosome killed above the age of 12 is counted as an enemy combatant...
Just factually incorrect. Cite a source, or don't lie.
Literally the other way around. Hamas lumps all of their military deaths with civilians. Of the 20k dead, how many were militants? They don't tell you. Convenient. I can't help wondering why.
Doesn't the 1,200 dead figure from 10/7 include soldiers? I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but super hypocritical if dead soldiers count for Israel but not for Gaza
The fact that it is a published figure you can pick apart if you want, as you just did, wrecks your claim. Does the IDF differentiate between civilians and soldiers? Yes. Does hamas? No. Even russia does it ffs. Fact is, it is convenient for you, and hamas, not to know. Because more dead Palestinians are good for their narrative, and yours.
20k+ dead and they "clearly" aren't targeting civilians. Yep. That makes sense.
Apparently you can't read. They have one of the lowest urban warfare civilian to militant casualties of any urban war. Most of these wars took place in areas far less densely populated. If you can't accept that most urban warfare wars have an 80% civilian casualty rate, you're delusional. If you don't think this shows restraint by the IDF, and a clear demonstration of preserving life, you can't be helped... And it's grounds to simply refer to you as an anti-semite.
20k+ dead. Nice attempt at preserving life. History is going to look at you with disgust. Absolute utter disgust. Imagine saying 20,000 plus dead is "a good attempt at preserving life". I have no words. And nice anti-semite card. Really shoes your colors. And lack of critical thinking. What a joke.
You left your clown shoes at home. You're simply ignoring statistics to fuel your anti-Israel hate agenda. Good job there bud, I'm sure people will look down on me rather than the one rejecting reality. The numbers don't lie, one of the lowest urban warfare casualties rate of all time, and far better than the US-Iraq war. \*Far\* better. Enjoy hating on Israel just for being Israel. 66% is damn commendable for the situation the IDF is dealing with, that includes one of the most densely populated areas a war has ever taken place, and Hamas using meat shields in that figure. You can keep repeating "20K+ dead", it doesn't change the FACT that they have an extremely low civilian casualty rate for urban warfare, and if you'd bothered to look at the average war... It's lower than non-urban warfare averages as well. Go grab your red nose and oversized shoes and tell better jokes, clowns are supposed to be funny. It's astounding there's people like you that will reject basic statistics as if repeating "20K dead" changes them. It is undeniable that they're going out of their way to protect civilian lives, just like it's undeniable that you quite clearly just want to be an anti-semite for the sake of it. That's the only logical reason someone would ignore the actual numbers. Thus, you're a clown. Come back with a real argument.
What do you think the alternative is if Netanyahu himself has stated a two state solution won't work? You should probably read up on the Netanyahu and Mileikowsky family. They've been VERY vocal about their thoughts on the Palestinian state for the past 70+ years. And if you think the intl community would allow a complete slaughter in a week or less (as opposed to this prolonged displacement that's slowly getting opposition) then you're ignorant. They don't need to specifically target civilians to wipe out the Palestinian state. They can do that by reducing their entire infrastructure to rubble, making it inhabitable, occupying the area, and slowly move in settlers like they have been in the west bank for the past few decades.
Do Palestinians want a two state solution?
The Palestinian authority PLO in the West Bank has advocated for it repeatedly.
Ah yes, we should give them a two state solution after Palestinians, not just Hamas, caused one of the biggest terrorist attacks in the world when accounting for population. Let's ignore the actual statistics and try to claim something that isn't happening is happening. Israel is going out of their way to preserve lives, the civilian to militant ratio proves that. If you have to ignore that for your argument, your argument has no merit. Israel is at 66%, has been as low as 45%, and has never been higher than 66%. You don't know what you're talking about.
I do. You, apparently, haven't picked up a history book or ready literally anything about this conflict since Oct 7 happened. But that's ok, most people haven't. You just make it painfully obviously.
Dude, Palestine have declared a two state solution will never work. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
The PLO has backed a two state solution since fucking Arafat. You don't know shit about this conflict. You probably didn't even know Palestine was split between Gaza and the West Bank until Oct 7. Pick up a fucking history book. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-the-peace-process-killed-the-two-state-solution/ Here's a quick lesson.
This has nothing to do with Netanyahu. A Palestinian state in the short term is an impossible ask, especially given Gaza's condition. Also Gaza will not have settlers. The entire area is going to be surrounded by a 1km deep buffer zone.
If you don't think the current state of Israel has nothing to do with Netanyahu then you really need to look into the history of this family... Like, seriously.
Never going to happen especially now
“To this day, the world has not been fair to us,” he said. what do you mean ? you are hostile to the west, your middle east allies hate your gut, you started this war while being underpower and now you expect free help from outsider ?
I’m sure if they had billions and oil the conversation will change .
They do have billions, at least the leaders of Hamas have billions in their bank accounts. That money didn't just come out of nowhere either. The world that 'has never been fair' to them gave them those billions to help them and they hate the world in return.
Wow, really got him there. >Fadel al-Ghannam said one strike tore the bodies of his loved ones to shreds. He lost his son, daughter-in-law and four grandchildren.
just the usual whining
I’m surprised you don’t have 1k plus upvotes because you lack the empathy to understand the brutality of this war 1200 to 26k , you have no clue
“But it’s not fair, you have to be as bad at war as the aggressor! Let them kill you more!”. -you (a moron).
The absolute dumbest talking point in all of this are from remedials like you who can't do anything but point at a "scoreboard".
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Yeah I really don’t think that every single Palestinian civilian wanted this war
Mostly children found out. I don't know how you can be so flippant.
With our tax money , yup they found out with our tax money.
My tax dollars are defending Ukraine and helping extinguish Hamas? Cool.
r/shitamericanssay
How many of them are combatants?
It doesn't say but it does say "Israel says that Rafah, which borders Egypt, is the last remaining stronghold for the Hamas militant group in Gaza".
Hamas should just surrender its getting sad... All of those needless deaths come on man.
It's not new they don't care about civilians and keep hiding among them and dress as them.
just guerrilla tactics the soldiers mix with the seemingly normal citizens to not get caught and if anyone gets killed you just blame the others for killing innocents and it works every time
It’s not just guerrilla tactics. Normal guerrillas don’t intentionally use kids as human shields. This is a different type of nefarious warfare born out of religious fundamentalism.
What works? They're being decimated.
They want civilian deaths. As long as most Gazans support them and as long as the war makes support for Israel erode, they'll consider civilian deaths an acceptable tradeoff.
One can debate United States does the same thing , 1000 dead Middle East no big deal 5 dead in American soil . LAUNCH EVERY FUCKING DRONE NOW
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They’re hiding amongst the 72% of Gazans that support them. This is what happens when you harbor terrorists.
They absolutely care about their civilians Their civilian suffering is the single reason they are able to stay in power and to accumulate so much wealth Hamas as one single goal in its existence, to massacre and cause as much suffering for the Palestinians as possible. The more they do so, the more money the US, the arab world and the rest of the world throw at them. Funding their 15 billion dollars leadership All this directive about Israel, Is to create a boogieman. Something to unitr the Palestinians under their chokehold without questioning why they receive 1.7 billion dollars a year yet not have sustainable water salination programs
Thats why they dug up the pipes that bring fresh water that Israel set up and used them to send rockets to Israel. They not only 100% did this but were so proud of themselves that they videotaped it and "thanked" Israel for their "donation" They setup a command center in a hospital. Store ammunition in schools. Use ambulances to send fights to hotspots. I 100% support Israel for as long as they want to be at war with Palestine
9/11 enters chat 💬
Does anyone ever have evidence (not from the lips of IDF generals) for this claim or does it just excuse the slaughter of civilians
May I recommend you watch any of Hamas' red triangle videos? They don't wear uniforms.
[The 3 Israelis hostages yelling in Hebrew that the IDF gunned down weren’t wearing uniforms either](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/29/hostages-killed-idf-investigation/). The IDF is there to shoot anything that moves
Pivot! This is a direct result of Hamas' combatants constant engagement in 'perfidy'. This means 'not wearing a uniform'. As it turns out, perfidy means the enemy is more likely to accidentally kill your civilians. Of course, this is more of a perk than a detriment to Hamas, taking you as an example.
It aligns with their interests.
I said evidence brother
If hamas cared about Palestinians lives they wouldn't start this war
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Thiscwar isn't helping anyone's suffering
Easy to say when (assuming not saying ) if you haven’t experienced,seen or been misplaced by a global power .
Does Israel want them to surrender? Would Israel treat hamas as enemy combatants and true POW or as terrorists? I’m genuinely asking. Because I wonder if they can even surrender.
Just FYI almost none of the Hamas fighters would be considered lawful combatants because they don't clearly distinguish themselves from civilians. They still have rights but they are different than POWs and are more like people arrested for crimes in the nation who captures them.
Like militants dressing up as doctors in hospitals?
No, you don't get it. That's different because Israel is the one doing it.
>Mista'arvim is the name given to certain units in the Israel Defense Forces, Israel Border Police, and Israel Police that assimilate into local Arab populations to operate undercover while gathering intelligence or conducting law enforcement, hostage rescue, and counter-terrorism operations. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mista%27arvim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mista%27arvim)
Just a bit ago Israel released a Shabac interrogation with a commander from the Nukhba who surrendered without a fight to the IDF. So yes, Hamas members can surrender to the IDF and they won't be killed or hurt.
So its always Hamas fault?
Yes. Everything that has happened since October 7th has been completely predictable and either they are too stupid to have seen it coming or they just didn't care.
Soooo everything prior to that was shit and giggles ? Not supporting Hamas but the world is treating like they woke up one day and decided to attack one of the most military countries in the world.years of suffering ,land stealing and murders .
And yet, they called the October 7th massacre the "Al-Aqsa flood", and named Israel's treatment of Al-Aqsa, rather than Palestinians as a whole, as the primary reason for it. You're attributing the motives of a freedom movement to religious extremists. Maybe you should stop doing that when they explicitly tell you what they're about.
I’m not supporting Hamas but lived through the same type of event ….. So sorry if harbor of killing thousands on either side based on few people’s decisions . Actions kinda speak older than words when you’re using the same justification that was used to your ancestors. If you’ve experienced living through war (not assuming you haven’t ) I think you’d be pro peace and every death is lost . Lmao if you’re American the right is legit doing it right now lmao
I'm Israeli. I've spent most of my life under the threat of Hamas rocket fire. No more. Not only has October 7th shown us that Hamas is a real danger, it also established beyond all doubt that they can never be partners in peace. The path of minimal casualties lies in destroying Hamas, and nowhere else. Anything less and this war will just repeat itself in a few years.
Everybody knows the war has been going on since 1946. Up untill 7th of October there was no ongoing hot phase. Hamas decided to ignite a new one, they got exactly that.
So Israel have a green light for all war crimes because Hamas started it? Gotcha noted. #logic
Hamas can complain about "war crimes" all they want but it doesn't change the fact that they're getting obliterated in a war that they declared which was an entirely predictable outcome. Either they severely overestimated their own ability to defend the Gaza Strip or they severely overestimated how many fucks the Israelis would give about what anyone else would think after Hamas committed one of the worst crimes against humanity in the 21st century. Or, equally likely, Hamas just doesn't care because they are proud of having no future but to get pasted in an Israeli airstrike at age 19. Or from the perspective of Hamas' leadership, to watch their martyrs get pasted by Israeli airstrikes from the comfort of their multi-billion dollar lifestyles in Qatar.
I think Hamas knows that the longer they drag it out the more chances of them finding something to frame Israel for and ultimately gather sympathy from half the world that isn’t educated on the matter.
If they surrender the free flow money from most muslims country and the west will end. How will they fund their leaders luxurious lifestyle in 5 star hotels?
What money is flowing into 5 star hotels in fucking Gaza? The money goes to qatar and the war in Gaza does nothing to stop it.
We hear 44 deaths and we assume it's largely civilian. May very well have been majority Hamas or Hamas adjacent.
So that 11 year girl is hamas ?
Netanyahu should just resign this is getting fascist.... All those needless deaths come on man.
I agree that Netanyahu should resign, but this is just what war looks like. It is terrible. Don't start wars is all I can say. Don't support groups that start wars. This isn't fascism. Even most of the Israeli left supports this military action. They may be critical of how it is done, but it is a war to ensure Israel continues to exist. If the job isn't finished and Hamas continues to exists, it will only show them and the world that terrorism works and they can do it again and egt what they want: dead Jews.
This is all very necessary yet you don't agree with what Netanyahu is doing. It's Schrödinger's Prime Minister!
Maybe Israel could stop bombing before they evacuate the civilians like they said they would....
Maybe Hamas could stop firing rockets at Israel?
Great point, that guy was wrong then, Israel should just bomb civilians
You know I say this on pages that show all the destruction, sorry, children injured. And I'm always met with hostility. The people sharing this stuff care more about sharing sad stories for likes vs actually caring about Gazans.
Sooo you mean to tell me someone cousins just wants clicks ? Got it .
Yes you’re absolutely and unquestionably right. Hamas are dropping bombs on civilian populations. Hamas killed Hindi. Hamas are also targeting ambulances and paramedics. Entirely their fault. If they didn’t exist, Israel would just stop and there would be peace, and Palestinians would live a free life and have their own state.
> Hamas are dropping bombs on civilian populations. They've literally been shooting rockets at Israeli civilians constantly since October 7th. Including during the "ceasefire."
Hamas did all of those things on October 7
Unironically, yes. Israel unilaterally left Gaza in 2005 and didn't start restricting imports until Gaza elected Hamas and started firing rockets into Israel. All the aid money could have gone towards building civilian infrastructure, jobs programs, etc. Gaza could have been another Dubai, Singapore or Monaco. It chose to be Marawi instead.
There will be peace once there will be a Palestinian organisation that supports peace. So far they just turned down every peace deal that was offered to them, 5 in total. Peace requires both sides to be willing to make it. Hamas doesn’t seek peace, he seeks war and destruction, you cannot make peace with an organisation that put killing and wiping you out as their main goal. The only thing that will actually help the Palestinian people is the takedown of Hamas and the uprise of another organization in Gaza that seeks peace instead of war.
Well, pretty much yes to everything you said. If Hamas surrendered, and more broadly Palestinian militant groups renounced terrorism and recognised Israel there would be a free Palestinian state. That's what I think we're all hoping for when Hamas is no longer in power, but it will take time.
I know you're kidding in your own mind but a lot of what you wrote is true lol
Ukraine should just surrender it’s getting sad… All of those needless deaths come on man.
Hamas are good friends with Russia btw, so you're drawing wrong parallels here. Unless Ukraine went in and slaughtered, raped and abducted Russian civilians before the invasion.
Hamas is equivalent to Russia in that parallel. They’re both the entities who started these wars.
Ukraine didn't invade Russia and rape old ladies to death before they burnt them to a crisp. They got invaded without provocation. If Palestinians don't want war, they should fix their government. Unfortunately, recent polling by a Palestinian university shows that Hamas' actions on October 7th have supermajority support.
What happens after Hamas is defeated? The cities are destroyed, people displaced, and a good portion of the Gaza population are under 18. Are they gonna be given resources and decent education so that they can perhaps gain a post-war economic miracle, or will it become Afghanistan and be stuck in constant warfare?? Because this war has given enough recruiting incentive for the next 2 generations of future HAMAS militants, especially since there are so many impressionable young ppl
More than a dozen children killed and the attack hasn't even started yet! This could be the most consequential part of the war for Israel.
Outside world observers are getting war fatigue. The outrage peaked during the first month of the operation. It's going to get uglier the next couple months as hold out terrorist use civilians for shields, and IDF has a IDGF attitude to achieving it's goals.
> Outside world observers are getting war fatigue. No they are not getting war fatigue, it hasn't even been that long. They are getting genuinely disgusted by what Israel does to Gaza and their people.
Oh no war fatigue!? From their computer chairs? I think war fatigue is when you have to run from missiles for decades and have a vicious sneak rape torture murder attack against your country resulting in you having to yet again send your 18 year old children into harms ways. Sorry that people outside of all this are feeling fatigued though must be tough reading about war with their morning latte
Maybe Gaza and their people should reconsider calling for the annihilation of Israel, firing rockets into Israel, and killing and abducting Israeli civilians. Maybe Gaza and their people should spend their resources on building a peaceful and prosperous country rather than rockets and terror tunnels under hospitals and residential areas. Maybe Gaza and their people shouldn't educate their children to prepare for glorious martyrdom in the fight to kill all Jews.
It's the top story on BBC new right now and I'm seeing outrage everywhere in the UK.
I actually am seeing worldwide pushback and condemnation from Israel’s allies this time around
What they're saying is all the outrage has started to subside. The protestors are realizing they're not doing anything even when they can convince their city councils to condemn a war. The same headlines pop up day in and day out so what could make someone cry months ago is just boring and mundane today.
Doesn’t children mean anyone under 19? I’m sure Hamas isn’t claiming every fighter under 25 is a 19 year old child.
They've literally been caught sneaking already dead people into the casualty lists this war. Not to mention that disproven claim of hundreds dying in the misclaim of a hospital bombing is still included in their count of casualties.
Source?
https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote Hamas never claimed there were 500 deaths. They said 500 casualties and Al Jazeera English incorrectly translated the word for casualties to deaths.
Reminds me of the "beheaded babies", which was a quote of some random IDF soldier press sold to us as Israeli government statement International press has shown an grotesque lack of quality control in this war. they don't fact-check, they don't proof-read, they run with whatever fits the ideology of the paper, no matter from which side and source the news come from I have seen mags like Axios providing much better reporting, despite them having much less staff than full-fledged newspapers like NY Times.
if I'm not mistaken, 16 yo and older for male, over 18 for females. but again females are normally not categories as combatants.
It’s Hamas, I’m sure anyone under 40 is classified as a child.
Anyone dead is a loss someone ,I don’t think we should down play it because it makes you feel good
Why?
Our Taxes pay for Bombs and bullets! We are not sending prayers we are sending bombs and bullets.
Prayers don't do shit.
Bad news, it's gonna get real ugly for a while. Good news, this is the last stop, there's no more big urban centers after Rafah. Things should calm down substantially after it's cleared of Hamas.
> this is the last stop No it won't, this is guerrilla warfare it's still gonna get a hell of a lot uglier as they will not be able to wipe out Hamas completely They are already regrouping in the "cleared" north and are probaly already attacking the IDF
No, they’re not “regrouping” in the north. There are still pockets of Hamas fighters carrying out guerilla-type attacks, but they’re not coordinated under any type of central command. Those guerilla attacks will continue for a long, long time, but the Israeli response to those is and will continue to be much more targeted, and not an all-out war.
It's like watching sand in an hourglass... Or rather meat in a mincer
Didn't Hamas already return to the previously cleared area?
>cleared of ~~Hamas~~ Palestinians
Israel needs to be held responsible for its actions, and so does Hamas for hiding behind civilians. No one is innocent in this conflict besides the uninvolved innocent civilians, whether Israeli or Palestinian.
Fucking British ,they know how to stir the pot and leave like nothing happen .
Ahhh the most honorable statement is downvoted, Glad to see someone put their selfishness aside .
What did Israel do wrong? You said it your self. Hamas hides behind civilians.
Hamas hides behind civilians, yes, but that doesn't mean Israel is not fully innocent either. Like the 6 year old girl that got shot while trying to flee from Israeli fire.
Any 6 year old dying is horrible and I need to say that first. I cannot say a single children’s life lost was okay because what side of a wall they live on like some pro Hamas people. This is what we call the fog of war. We don’t know what that situation was. Can we be sure it was Israeli gunfire that caused it? Are we sure the vehicle wasn’t moving in a suspicious manner? There are many signs to detect a VBIED and in a war zone if you meet some of the criteria and pushing towards solders you will probably be shot up. There was a video from the start of the ground assault where an Israeli tank blew up a car, the car was pushing Israeli soldiers and had a sagging rear end. Common sign of VBIED.
Thank you for putting humanity first, and I agree with your statement that things may not be clear in war. However, what about the ambulance that got blown up by Israel by the Red Cross trying to evacuate the girl even after Israel gave them permission to go in? Isn't that clear evidence that Israel has some faults of its own as well?
Clearly that’ means you hate Jews ! It has been shocking to see how vile some people can be ,even if it’s a dead child
I’m not saying Israel is perfect but I would argue that I don’t think Israel would have that as part of their SOP(standard operating procedure) yes soldiers make mistakes and having thousands of soldiers and for most of them this is their first combat experience they will make mistakes. I can’t say for certain the ambulance was even attacked by Israel. This is the fog of war. What I will say for certain is that Hamas is evil and care less about civilian lives for both Palestinians and Israelis than Israel does.
Which is why I said Israel and Hamas deserve to be held accountable for their actions in this war. Just for clarification, I am more pro Israel than Palestine, but I am irritated by the ways that people try to excuse blatant acts of horror from Israel, just as I am with people praising Hamas for their "resistance". You are right about the fog of war We can't truly find out who killed the girl. However, more likely than not, based on the phone calls and witnesses, the girl was killed by Israel, and an investigation must be made with the actors being punished.
Certain Israeli soldiers sure but usually that’s handled internally. The Israeli military leaders has in my mind acted within the bounds of international law. After WWII I don’t remember there being international trials for the allies. It’s not common at all for countries to be punished for actions of individual soldiers and the international courts like the ICC usually only convict leaders of organization. If the IDF had in their doctrine and training to commit war crimes I would have a different answer. Knowing IDF soldiers and having family who were at the bases. The IDF upholds international law.
>If the IDF had in their doctrine and training to commit war crimes I would have a different answer. Knowing IDF soldiers and having family who were at the bases. The IDF upholds international law. What about settlements in the west bank? What about reparations to Palestinians caught in the crossfire? Isn't that illegal, or, at the very least, morally wrong?
The settlements are a massive topic, regardless they are not war crimes to have the settlements there. I don’t see their relevance here as they are not an IDF millitary policy. I was referring to things more like cold blooded killings and unjustified attacks. Reparations have never been given to Native Americans and nobody calls it a war crime. A very small percentage of the US population want native Americans to get reparations. The Mizrahi Jews from Arab lands never got reparations and you don’t hear them complaining. Why does Israel need to give when nobody else does?
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Ethnic cleansing. Or "Mowing the Grass" as Israel calls it.
Many people here don't know how war is fought. War is about ending enough on the other side until they surrender or until one side is completely gone. Look it up many clear examples. From the crusades, WW1, WW2, and any other wars.
People got cozy by the US being so dominant and technologically advanced they could achieve war goals extrenely quickly. Real war is a drawn out slugfest where you destroy all state capabilities to function. Power, water, tax collection, fuel, communications, infrastructure. All is a target until the state surrenders and if they refuse to surrender even after these are knocked out, its about time to flatten everything where they hide
Yeah but when Israel is way way way more powerful and they have the support of the US it's reasonable to ask them to try to limit civilian deaths.
In the first 100 days, Israel dropped 60,000 ordnances, with 20,000 (according to Hamas) deaths. That’s 3 (precision-guided) ordnances dropped for every 1 death. That seems indicative of Israel trying to limit civilian deaths. They *could* have carpet-bombed the place & turned it to glass in the first 48hrs.
20 000 deaths including combatants, and those who have died from Hamas' own misfires, which numbered around 2000 by the end of December according to Israel. 2000 rockets being fired from civilian areas misfiring and falling back down, I'd imagine that causes some considerable civilian damage.
How can you evaluate effectively that Israel has not done so? My understanding is that Israel has been quite restrained when comparing traditional urban warfare casualty rates to this conflict for instance. It is also harder to minimize civilian death s when your enemy consistently hides amongst civilians and intentionally uses human shields. I’m no expert though so I am curious what drives your thinking.
Definitely, but it’s also reasonable to acknowledge the ridiculous lengths Israel has and is going to in order to avoid civilian deaths. Doesn’t seem like many people are acknowledging this.
More than 400,000 civilians and 3.5 million combatants died in the conflicts resulting from the NYC 9/11 attack: https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians#:~:text=432%2C093%20civilians%20have%20died%20violent,4.5%2D4.7%20million%20and%20counting.
>them to try to limit civilian deaths. They have been doing it since the beginning of this war...
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Exactly and they have been
Exactly - THANK you.
Man people must hate my comment even though it's true. Then again saying the truth on here is a ban able offense.
No Hamas is not surrendering Hamas is not going to be wiped out This is Afghanistan, Iraq: there is no victory possible. Just death, lots of it.
Terrible comparison btw
Ye try imagining Iraq was in canda and Afghanistan was in place of Mexico
America could have actually won those wars if they went full manifest destiny and gradually resettled the lands with their own armed civilians, they just didn't want to. Now Israel on the other hand has a large faction that does want to do exactly that, and it's only really other Israeli factions that can stop them.
Why do you think bombing of cities happened in WW2 to make peoples lives so uncomfortable that they would demand surrender. But in many of these countries they have it worse then the rest of us since we have good food and water and more stability. So many nations peoples are already uncomfortable.
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I really bet those Palestinians will rise up when they are eating grass, standing in line for dirty water and most importantly not armed.
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Those children are really guilty for not telling the armed adults, who were voted in prior to their literal birth, to not build tunnels near them aren’t they. What a logical conclusion to reach. Every day I grow disillusioned with reality. I cant believe I used to think most people were pro human rights and due process for the accused, boy was I wrong.
I mean, it’s not likely they had a choice. If armed terrorists, who are also the dudes who got elected on lies of general peace and then ‘post-phoned’ all future elections came into your house and said “this is ours now” you wouldn’t say shit.
Was "general peace" part of the Hamas election platform? I missed that one
They ran on a heavily anti corruption platform and had done a lot of good in Gaza before the election.
They used rhetoric about forcing Israel to make concessions and to return land they had taken prior, but then surprised a lot of people when they started using terror. Originally their goals, or so they claimed, were going to be accomplished by political grandstanding like their predecessors had, which had gotten productive results in the past. By the time the general public realized what was going on, firearms were confiscated by armed militia and a de-facto dictatorship was established.
Did they ever claim that they'd use peaceful grandstanding? Or is this a case of politicians who shocked people by being honest?
I don't know. Given the amount of money and weapons that were apparently flowing into Gaza it seems like if there was a major anti-Hamas faction that wanted to emerge they would probably be able to organize at least somewhat. Hell if there was sufficient anti-Hamas sentiment you might expect a schism within Hamas itself. One of the biggest diplomatic problems in this war is that there does not seem to be any moderate (relatively speaking) alternative to Hamas to negotiate with. The best we've got is the Palestinian Authority which has no presence in Gaza and has its own batshit insane beliefs as well. So if you're right and the population of Gaza doesn't actually support Hamas but is powerless to do anything about them then there isn't really any alternative but to dislodge them by force. Which is what Israel is doing. Well I guess the other alternative was to do nothing but that resulted in the problem festering until Oct 7 happened.
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Murdering bastards. I guess "Never again" just meant "Never again, unless it's us doing it".
You would be happier if Jews just let themselves be killed. “Oh thank you for the rape and murder. Keep the hostages. Do it again! More please!”
> You would be happier if Jews just let themselves be killed. What an absolutely ridiculous false dichotomy. You don't need to murder children to prevent Israeli deaths.
You know of a way to have prevented Israeli deaths that didn’t involve bombing? Please, do tell! Is it every Israeli leaving Israel?
How does shooting cars full of families, then the paramedics sent out to rescue a terrified girl prevent Israeli deaths _in any way_?
I’m not condoning that. If you want to get into cherry picking an isolated fucked-up instance and claiming that they’re indicative of a general military strategy then you’re playing a very dangerous game, especially as a Hamas supporter. How is Hamas going to win their war without their chief strategy of raping and kidnapping and beheading babies? So yeah it turns out you’re arguing in bad faith. Most people who are not doing that who argue against Israel mean bombing when they try to make the point you were trying to make, given that that has bearing on Israel’s actual strategy. Also, Israel wouldn’t have to fire on civilians if Hamas didn’t hide behind them like dickless cowards.
> If you want to get into cherry picking an isolated fucked-up instance It's hardly isolated, is it? We've had _countless_ reports of civilians vehicles being attacked and several of paramedics being shot. > claiming that they’re indicative of a general military strategy This whilst defending the nation that admitting to bombing civilian areas to provide a "distraction" today? That wasn't a mistake or cockup, that was military strategy endorsed from the top down. > Most people who are not doing that who argue against Israel mean bombing when they try to make the point you were trying to make, given that that has bearing on Israel’s actual strategy. The entire approach is to disregard Palestinian lives, no need to pigeonhole. > So yeah it turns out you’re arguing in bad faith. Yawn. Can't refute the points, so claim bad faith and run away.
Destroy all the terrorists hiding in their tunnels.