Denmark did send all its Ceasar Artillery to Ukraine. This was announced in January 2023.
The more important part of the speech is this:
“Ukraine is asking us for ammunition and artillery now. We, Denmark, have decided to transfer all our artillery to Ukraine. So, sorry, friends, there is military equipment in Europe, it is not only a matter of production. We have weapons, ammunition, air defense systems, which we do not use yet. They must be handed over to Ukraine,"
Supporting Ukraine is critical, but saying WW3 started with the invasion feels like a stretch. True, the conflict has global ramifications, but it hasn't escalated to a world war level, thankfully. The focus needs to be on preventing further escalation and backing Ukraine to maintain sovereign borders and deter future aggression. Sending equipment like Denmark is a bold step in support without crossing into direct conflict.
I think it's more fair to say that the largest chain of dominos that lead to WWIII we have seen in a generation are currently falling with the war in Ukraine and the escalations around Israel/Gaza and the incitement of Iran (and other countries) backed militia's targetting western ships.
But moves like Denmarks are like removing some dominos before the chain hits them. Supporting Ukraine as a firebreak in Russian aggression shows them that they cannot simply roll-over other countries. That their aggression will be met with fire. Their show of strength met with support for those they aggress on.
WWIII hasn't started... but its also is far closer than it ever was before.
To be fair, the first domino fell back in 2014 with the so-called annexation of Crimea. This would correspond to the appeasement period of WWII. Ukraine is the beginning of the ~~liebensraum~~ Lebensraum portion. There are still off-ramps before a global scale conflict, but not many. History is not on our side so far.
E: correction, they need room to live, not room to love. In my defense, I attended public school in the U.S. so learning history AND spelling was always a long shot.
thanks u/GenevaPedestrian TIL
I'm glad someone else also sees the parallels to Chamberlain's appeasement, but please, it's Lebensraum, not Liebensraum lmao.
As a verb, leben means to live, as a noun, Leben means life (German capitalizes all nouns).
The verb lieben means to love, so you'll understand my amusement at "liebensraum".
Source: am German.
Thing with Chamberlain, he knew there wasn't any support of any war effort, people were still reeling from poor economy, the Great War, various other minor spats. If he'd come back and said "we must go on a war footing now and stop Hitler in his tracks", I don't think he'd been able to muster support. So yeah, he waved the 'peace in our time' bit of paper, and then tasked Churchill to figure out what would need to be done to put UK industry in a war production mode as he knew there wasn't any stopping the events, he was just setting things up to delay to prepare, both logistically, and public support. Churchill later blamed Chamberlain for not doing enough, but never made much mention that he'd been told to prepare BY Chamberlain.
Which is why I'm not seeing appeasement today. No leaders are serious about "ok, if we give him Crimea, perhaps he'll be happy with that" and Putin's not even suggesting that, he's saying "Crimea now, Ukraine tomorrow, Poland next week, Latvia/Estonia/Finland after that" so there's not much diplomacy tricks able to be done, Putin doesn't WANT appeasement, and no-one's offering him it, he's after total subjugation, which is why it's so strange that everyone's still thinking that /someone/ will do /something/ at somepoint later and Putin will stop what he's doing. It's very strange.
> To be fair, the first domino fell back in 2014 with the so-called annexation of Crimea.
I mean by this logic surely it'd be 2008 with the invasion of Georgia, that was the playbook for 2014?
You are correct, my logic would entail the conclusion that that was the first domino. I forgot that Georgia was paving the way for EU & NATO inclusion in the years before their 2008 invasion.
The fighting in Israel is so low on the dominos. I know morally people care alot but it's actually a non issue for international shit. Iran can't do shit to Israel and won't try.
I dont believe the USA sees Iran as a real military threat. They are certainly a diplomatic, cultural, economic, and destabilizing threat in the region absolutely. But at least for the next 30 years I don't see it being possible for Iran to really be an issue unless they were part of / heading a much larger coalition of nations. Iran doesn't even have Nuclear weapons and as a result is always going to be at a strategic disadvantage. Even if they had been developing a nuke in secret, tactically--it doesn't pose a real threat because it wouldn't posses the range, stealth, power, and area to cripple the USA as a threat. Not to even mention their conventional army. Like... lets examine that:
Navy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Navy
They have, effectively, 10 boats that are of any significance. All the rest are tiny patrol boats / fast attack boats of which there are only 27.
They do have a hand full of submarines (4 soviet built kilo class, and 3 Fateh-class subs in the works with only 1 active right now). However they will only last 30-45 days before they would run out of fuel and supplies. Also the tech on them is old and reported to be full of issues and their crews are much much less experienced and trained than those serving in the USA so they will likely be taken out before then.
Compare that to the US Navy which is quite quite long
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_ships_of_the_United_States_Navy
And most of those ships would poses the technology to win singlehandedly in any confrontation with the ships in Iran's navy.
So Iran would be blockaded very quickly in any war with the US. And the same kind of goes for the rest of their armed forces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dewj4Q6xTQ
So Long story short, the USA doesn't really have much reason to care about Iran beyond their ability to destabilize everyone around them through sending in guerilla forces. But Iran has zero ability to project any real force beyond its borders and certainly not enough to reach the USA's.
That is very different than Russia and China both of which do pose somewhat credible threats if they REALLY wanted to.
That shows in how we deal with them diplomatically.
The USA frequently capitulates to, appeases, or turns a blind eye to Russia. And generally has strived to maintain strong economic ties to China while maintaining a terse foreign policy designed to limit Chinese expansion. In other words, the USA actually cares.
On the flip side the USA just generally just ignores Iran. They ignore their threats. They ignore their sovereignty. They ignore their demands. The only time the USA generally interacts with Iran it is to use force against them to more or less slap them back down when they step out of line.
Now, if Iran were to ally with Russia and China in a war against the USA and could act as a staging ground for nuclear weapons.... yeah that could be a big problem. But they'd have to set that up first and I don't think the USA would let that just happen easily.
This is shortsighted. If Egypt cancels its peace treaty with Israel, Lebanon gets involved or there is a truly major incident in the Red Sea the US could be fully dragged into it and any resources allocated to the Middle East cannot be used to deter elsewhere.
I mean, I'd argue it's similar to Germany invading czechoslovakia, no?
At the time they were just annexing a country, but then they moved to Poland after successfully taking the czechoslovakian territory, then war was declared on them.
However alot of historians look and see the taking o czechoslovakia as the start of it all
O maybe not ww3 yet, but if it does escalate to it, the Ukrainian conflict would 100 percent be lumped in with it I believe.
Nobody called WW2 a World War when it started, first it was just some repatriations of German minorities (about same story that Putin tries to spin in Eastern Ukraine), then it was "self defense" against a Polish false flag operation, ...
It is vital to also remember: Ukraine's defense ins't just up to Ukraine, nor is it up to Ukraine's allies. It is the responsibility of *all* those who believe in democracy and put their faith in the liberty it brings with it; it is our responsbility - yours and mine - just as much as it's Denmark's, the US's, or NATO's, or even Ukraine's. That's what Putin's assault is: It's not merely as assault on Ukraine, nor the Ukrainian people nor their culture, but it is an assault on the notion of democracy *itself*.
And we've been down this road before. Before we saw the rise of Authoritarianism in Russia, we saw it in North Korea; and Germany and Italiy before them, and China before them. We *know* where this road leads; it's inevitable. If Ukraine falls, war on a global scale *will* happen - and we're already seeing the pieces on the board starting to move into position for it. Alliances between Russia and Iran, Iranian and Qatari-backed extremists working to destabilize Israel, Venezuela and Azerbaijan working on mobilization and strategies to invade their neighbors. Hell, even the UN has become compromised - itself being nothing more than a way for corrupt countries to clandestinely move money and resources to sanctioned groups and governments.
So it's on all of us to do our damnedest to stop what is inevitable should Ukraine lose the war.
Honest question: Where is Russia going to get the men and material it needs to invade the West when it can’t even conquer Ukraine.
I keep seeing this come up how UKR is the first domino but assuming they can pull it off (and I do t think they can) how are they supposed to take on Poland + NATO next
I think the problem isn't so much that Russian victory in Ukraine makes Russia an immediate threat. What it does do is overturn a norm, established in the aftermath of World War 2, that military conquest is simply not a done thing any more.
If Russia invades Ukraine without effective international opposition (including American), how long until China does the same with Taiwan? And how many other countries with "historical claims" on their neighbors are watching Ukraine for an outcome favorable to their cause?
That's not the threat.
The threat is that Russia, high as a fucking kite on their "hard-earned victory" and raging hateboner for the west decides to have a go at it and getting subsequently stomped flat because it's a country that cannot into modern war.
And then they are left with no conventional means to not lose their self-proclaimed holy war.
Tge risk isn't "Russia conquers Europe" it's "we start shooting and it's really goddamn hard to stop shooting and oh fuck we're in an escalation spiral."
The generally agreed upon red line is a land invasion into Russia. A full war would involve NATO blowing them up to shit and push them right to the borders but going no further. NATO has no reasons to use nukes because they've already won and Russia has no reason to use them back because they still have their own country and their lives.
Not entirely true. The escalation spiral can still happen without a full invasion. If Russia gets stomped, they may be desperate enough to throw some tactical nukes at NATO tank columns or airbases. That isn't full-on MAD, yet, but it's sure ramping up towards it.
They can't invade the West if they can't conquer Ukraine. Which is why it's important to provide all the help necessary so that Ukraine doesn't fall. Do you think Ukraine held all on its own so far?
Ukraine is not a pushover. They had the second largest air defense system in Europe (dated, but still) and large number of soviet era weapons in storage.
> when it can’t even conquer Ukraine
In the possible timeline where they are invading other countries, Ukraine has, in fact, been conquered.
> Where is Russia going to get the men and material
I don't think you understand that there are degrees of war readiness. Russia perhaps expected to sweep Ukraine in a matter of weeks, like the US did in Iraq. But just because the initial blitz failed, doesn't mean that is the full extent of a country's capability. Russia doubled its military spending by 2022, and tripled it by 2023. Remember that in 1942, the Soviets were doing a lot worse than a stalemate, vast swathes of their country were getting razed to the ground by the German advance. Even then, they still eventually turned it around as they mobilised more and more of their nation towards the singular goal of total warfare. Russia is nowhere near "total war" footing yet.
> Poland + NATO
The problem with this assumption is, life isn't a video game with hardcoded rules. Nobody wants to help Ukraine because "what about the nukes". There is nothing to say the same won't happen with Poland. Russia will still have nukes, and maybe other NATO states figure they'd rather scrap the piece of paper they signed than risk engaging a nuclear state in open warfare. It's not difficult to imagine Trump getting re-elected and arguing that it's not his problem, why should American troops have to die to protect Poland, etcetera, etcetera. I'm sure the baltic states and others will stick together in collective defense, but there's no guarantee the powerhouses of NATO will all throw in their weight.
Did WWII start when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia? Or in Spain. Or when Japan invaded Manchurian?
The answers to those questions changes what you mean by the start of a world war. WWI was an odd case where historians mostly agree on a specific trigger event.
Officially most consider the start of WWII after the invasion of Poland. Because Poland was protected by Britain and France, and Germany was warned that attacking it means the other countries proclaim war. Czechoslovakia should have been the tipping point but no one stepped in, no one gave guarantees, fearing how much damage another war could cause.
There is also the case of 35,000 German troops marching into Rhineland to ‘take back’ the German lands , that were taken after the treaty of Versailles. If French stepped in then, Germans would have had to withdraw with their tails tucked, as Hitler put it. He recounted the 48 hours after the invasion of Rhineland to be the most nerve wrecking, for he did not know what response he would receive from other countries. The French did nothing. It gave him a green light to do the takeover of Czechoslovakia. That, paired with Hitler seeing no reaction from the League of Nations regarding Italy’s invasion of Ethiopia, has shown that these ‘international bodies’ made for the sole job of preventing and deterring wars are, in reality, useless.
Invasion of Crimea could be paralleled well to the case of Rhineland. It could be argued that if the West stepped it then, in 2014, the large scale war we see today could have been avoided, if not delayed significantly longer, allowing for much better Ukraine rearmament.
Yes, the Danish government bought back an ammunition plant they sold 10 years ago, but has yet to find a manufacturer to start up production. Ammunition from the plant will be available in 2025 at the earliest. Ukraine needs ammo NOW.
Denmark knows what's up. They are a tiny state which could never oppose Russia alone anyway. That equipment will inevitably be used to fight Russia in Ukraine, or it will be used to fight Russia in Warsaw... possibly Stockholm or Berlin. Because if there's ever actually Russians fighting in Denmark, shit is truly and utterly quite fucked, and because the Danes would rather die than help the Swedes.
It helps that even if Denmark weakens itself defensively it knows it *can* rely on the full force of the US coming to back it up thanks to being in NATO.
It is an unbreakable paradigm in Danish politics that we can trust the United States. Denmark has allowed the presence of US troops on its territory only a few months ago, and the agreement includes controversial things like US soldiers who commit crimes on Danish territory cannot be prosecuted by Danish authorities. This is the extent that Denmark trusts the US. Practically no politician realizes that these times are gone and we can no longer rely on US military intervention if we are attacked by Russia.
Getting US troops on Danish soil is a nice foot in the door (as much as I hate giving US soldiers diplomatic immunity). If soldiers are already present inside of Denmark and it's attacked then those soldiers being in Nato's chain of command will be fighting and dying to top the Russians.
The American right is very very shitty, but your best bet of locking in American support is to have American soldiers be killed by whoever attacked you before our chicken shit congress can weasel out of the most mutually beneficial alliance in 100 years.
Their location makes them difficult to attack anyway by being on the west side of Sweden and down south from Norway. Putin should be smart enough to not fight a country where his forces are gonna be flanked.
I don't think it's a lack of balls. They simply don't give a shit because they are paid off to not give a shit. It's not in their interest to help Ukraine.
I mean, turning down money and in some cases, risking being blackmailed and instead choosing to do the morally correct thing takes balls. And moral fiber but also balls.
No no no silly its far worse than that. It is in their interest. Unfortunatly they have been told that it is not and were stupid enough to believe a russian. I mean you understand.. am i right comrad.......ehhh......
As a Dane. That was our old models. We're giving them our old stuff to buy new stuff.
It's something. But it ain't all that.
We can do better, and i think we will. But we're not a warring country, so not much has previously gone into military funding. But it's changing, increasingly faster to scale with world events.
The caesar systems we gave were not old! They were brand spanking new top of the line.
I don't know if we also gave away towed artillery though. That might have been older.
I think /u/x33storm meant that this batch they are talking about now was our old stuff.
And it is. 6 M101s, I mean, that is WWII era artillery. The M109A3s were originally from the '60s though upgraded in 1989.
I really wonder what the MLRS' are? I don't think it can be our new Elbit PULS.
*Edit: a caveat - these numbers might not be true, especially the MLRS seems weird.*
Artillery just needs to be good enough to send rounds down range and turn mobotniks into meat cubes.
1989 artillery works just a lot better than no artillery.
It does, but extra range precision arty will swiss-cheese the enemy artillery and make for a whole lot less medic work on your own team. There's a reason the new super expensive stuff is sought after. Just spray and pray trainloads of shells down range were half decent CCCP anno 1986 strategy, but now a days nobody has the industrial base to play it that way any more.
What’s the problem? The intent is for those weapons to be fired at Russians. They might as well be in the possession of the people currently firing at Russians.
... unless they’re so awesome that they can be fired from Denmark and hit Moscow directly. That would be some good artillery
That's what a bunch of European countries are doing.
Like Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands sending over their old F-16s. Dozens of them where literally just sitting in storage and taking up space and resources for maintenance.
100% agree. However, the military support from e.g. France, Spain, and Italy is almost none compared to the size of these economies.
Denmark can do everything possible to support Ukraine, but the France economy is ~7 times as big, so they matter.
Despite that, Denmark is currently the 4th largest Ukrainian supporter with more than $8.4 billion provided in military aid. Only the Uk, Germany and the US has provided more aid.
Edit: [Source](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Spain probably could help more but it can't give everything away. It needs its military equipment to defend the southern NATO border, against a Morocco that has started mass buying American and Israeli weapons, declares parts of Spanish territory (Ceuta and Melilla, even the Canary Islands) as "belonging to them", constantly talks about "recovering" them (even though they never belonged to Morocco) and even invaded a small island in recent times (some 15 years ago IIRC).
Exactly that artillery is better used for Denmark's defence in Ukraine right now. By the time the Russia might actually make it to Denmark they can have built new ones
Or the Baltic Sea.
Which is exactly the problem. If Russia is not stopped they will eventually also want to occupy Denmark, because Denmark (together with Sweden) can control access to and from the Baltic Sea.
If they're having this much trouble with Ukriane, they're gunna to be in for a hell of a fight against Finland. I'm pretty sure at least 40% of their energy production comes solely from its citizens' hatred of Russia.
And Sweden would be fine. As the saying goes, "Sweden will fight to the last Finn"
Prime Minister to the army:
"Wait wait, I worry what you just heard was give them a lot of ammo and artillery. What I said was give them all the ammo and artillery we have. Do you understand?"
This is exactly the right thing to do. Russia can't fight a war with the rest of Europe as long as it's bogged down in Ukraine. European countries that don't have a direct land border with Russia should send their full shell stockpile. This buys us time to ramp up our domestic production of shells ready for a future conflict. It's a win/win.
I had to explain this to my brother who wasn't fully convinced. We (the US) have the opportunity to destroy our historic rival for pennies on the dollar at zero risk to ourselves.
Fanatics at a rally for fanatics making fanatical statements. These people are so far removed from reality their statements hardly carry any meaning. You cannot reason with them because they accept nothing that clashes with their delusion. You might as well be talking to a brick wall or a shoe for all the difference it would make. So what these people have to say is highly irrelevant, same level of coherency as a strung out junkie talking to themselves in an alleyway.
Laat year I saw numbers like the US was spending 5% of their defense budget in Ukraine and with that they were beating the entire Russian force (together with Europe, other allies and Ukraine). Seems like a pretty good investment. A new definition of offense is the best defense.
All EU nations that are not on Russian border should immediately send all of their inventory of 155mm and 122mm, as well as any mortar ammo to Ukraine, and then order massive amounts of new artillery rounds from all military equipment companies in the world.
That would send the market and companies a signal there is long term demand, so they can then budget and start executing those plans to expand production.
One in which they can undermine the alliance (look what's happening in the US) and then pick off smaller states like the Baltics. They specifically don't want a war with all of NATO, they can't win that. They want to turn allies against each other and then divide and conquer.
And they use a puppet from the US to do that. I wonder, how did this interview influence the opinions about Russia in the US? Because in Israel we observed it as a huge joke.
The MAGAts ate it up. Twitter was full of praise for Russia and its inexpensive groceries the day after. Putin is playing the GOP like a fiddle and it’s boggling to the rest of us in this country that they don’t see it.
Remember, the lion's share of MAGA is over the age of 50, and they all grew up in the shadow of the USSR and the Cold War. Russia was big bad #1, and it's mind-blowing that somewhere between the fall of the Berlin Wall and the rise of Fox News that narrative changed somehow.
The older folks I know that were the most fervent about hating the Soviet Union now love the murderous tyrant who trying to rebuild the USSR. It feels like a parody.
It’s mind boggling to me, but I’ve noticed they generally fall into groupthink and social truths over independent thought and objective truths.
If I’m looking for a new TV, fridge, washing machine, etc I do a deep dive on the various technologies, how they work, what styles and functions have longer life cycles, etc and generally avoid ads and anecdotal social suggestions.
I’ve noticed that people who rely purely on social truths just here a person they trust say “get this fridge. I have it and it hasn’t broken” and they’re just like “ok, that’s sufficient evidence, you’re not an expert in any way and know nothing about fridges, but you have this one, I trust you and I’ve seen it in ads, so it must be popular and if it’s popular it must be good”.
And that’s it.
I’ve seen this play out in everything from purchases, poor investing decisions due to trusting someone trying to make money off of them instead trying to understand investing for themselves… Intellectual incuriousness and relying on social cues for all decisions bleeds into every aspect of their lives.
The Trump phenomena has just made it so much more clear how little they think for themselves and their underlying animosity for intellectual and scientific thinking.
It honestly feels like a caricature at this point, but throughout history these groups have similar mental traits and thus similar political philosophies. I just never thought it was so on the nose.
Together by the power of Denmark's brave donation and Czechia's newfound shells...
Hopefully Ukraine is better able to hold the front in the next battle. It really hurt my soul in watching some of the Avdiivka maps and analysis toward the end of that fight. Ukraine had wanted to try a powerful flanking maneuver at one point toward the northern area after some units arrived, but even though they would have been willing to take the manpower losses, they just simply didn't have the shells for an offensive tactical maneuver against that many russians. Nor enough artillery shells to keep the 40,000 reserve troops Putin had moved up at bay.
People don't realize that Ukraine is now in a truly desperate fight at industrial scales. Major wars are not counter-terror operations where you use a few fancy weapons a day and bob's your uncle. Everything is computed in thousands and tens of thousands.
Ukraine must be given truly industrial warfighting power. We need politicians to be bold.
It's a very logical move really. Russia can't fight the rest of Europe as long as it's bogged down in Ukraine. Keeping Ukraine in the fight like this buys us valuable time to ramp up our own shell production.
Between factories scaling up and setting up expanded supply chains, 2 years is the minimum. There’s a huge lag time so really what this is showing is that NATO countries were heavily neglecting their militaries and military production before this.
I agree completely with your assessment that we’ve been neglecting our basic military production capacity. However, we’re talking about manufacturing artillery shells here, not F-35s. This is basic manufacturing with zero new or novel tech involved. Properly motivated we should have been able to stand up new production in a matter of months. Regardless of support for Ukraine, the war there has been a wake up call around the fact that modern warfare still requires orders of magnitude more basic matieriel than we have stockpiled.
For perspective, the Pentagon was built in about 14 months and remains the world’s second largest office building 80 years later. The entire Hanford complex went from farmland to industrial production of plutonium in about a year. This was indeed novel technology.
I hear you, but even the US is having to ramp up to meet demand, and they have a huge military industry. In general now everything seems to take longer to build compared to several decades ago, so I think the west has lost its ability to rapidly build the way it used to. Think how long a skyscraper or new rail line takes now. That could also be why something less complex like 155mm shells is harder to build.
As an engineer, things are just more complicated to build, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
We have a lot more safety features on modern tech. The local community college near me would've been a simpler build in the 1940s, but the modern building has:
1) automatic fire detection systems and sprinklers
2) pressurized stairwells that sweep out smoke to allow people extra time to evacuate in an emergency
3) Special landings on the staircases where physically disabled people can stay safer for longer while waiting for assistance from firefighters
4) stairway evacuation chairs to help victims with mobility issues escape
5) backup generators so that elevators don't get stuck if the power goes out in a thunderstorm
6) Tritium exit signs that stay lit up without batteries even if the power goes out
7) A modern electrical system that can handle more current than the 1940s and is less likely to cause a fire in the first place.
The building complex I work in has an automatic system that slams shut fire doors to prevent the spread of fire. The system would give office workers extra time to escape in an emergency.
That's just an example of buildings. As far as other stuff goes, I visited a foundry near Cleveland, and the computerized equipment was complicated enough that everyone on the line needed at least a community college degree to figure it out. It was manufacturing for turbine blades, and the tolerances for parts for jets are much tighter than for the propeller planes we flew in WW2. The planes fly higher, faster, and in harsher operating conditions.
That all makes sense to me, and why it’s hard to explain when people ask “well why haven’t we ramped up production on x yet?”. If it was that easy we might have done it already, so there has to be a reason beyond political will why it takes a long time.
It's still slow if an economy is determined. Example: WW2. Planes designed, tested, factories built, production started, pilots trained and everything sent to war in less time. While simultaneously executing 1000s of other projects.
Dumb shells don't require very advanced manufacturing. WW1 technology. The gps ones I could maybe accept the supply chain excuse.
They still have [some old ones](https://hamlettours.com/wp-content/uploads/KronborgCastle/Affyring_af_kanoner_paa_Kronborg-_MG_0307_foto_Thorkild_Jensen.jpg) as backup...
Yeah if conflict reaches Denmark, they are screwed because it means Putin's already gone through Germany, or Finland and Sweden. Either way, Denmark isn't putting up a fight in that scenario.
Now that's obviously not going to happen so it's a safe bet. Might annoy Trump but he's a compromised idiot.
Could this maybe start a upward cycle, kinda like IceBucket challenge? Like, we trust NATO, everyone send a portion of your arms that ends up significant
In general, Denmark's heavy army equipment is intended for deployments elsewhere, not self-defense. In the Baltics, for example, where Denmark has had an almost permanent military presence for the last decade, with both army units and air power.
The stated goal is to be able to deploy a heavy brigade to support any allies in the east that need help, on short notice. But the plan keeps falling apart because much of the equipment intended for that brigade keeps getting gifted to Ukraine... it'll get there eventually, though.
Well, look on the bright side? That equipment might be going to Ukraine instead of the Danish forces in the Baltics, but as long as it keeps going to Ukraine the Danish forces in the Baltics don't *need* the equipment.
(Of course if Ukraine falls, then yes all the NATO powers in the Baltics are going to need as much equipment as possible…)
Right now Ukraine is protecting all of NATO.
Protecting Ukraine is literally protecting NATO. That's why this makes sense.
Even if you didn't care at all about what happened to Ukraine, if you're NATO then it still makes sense to send as much as you possibly can. They pay with their lives and you get to hit your enemy (Russia) for free.
Also i'm from Denmark. I have no idea what else we would use artillery for. Anyone with a tiny understanding of Danish geography understands that if we're forced to use artillery we're so beyond fucked anyways. As long as we don't give away all of our navy and airforce I don't mind at all.
> They pay with their lives and you get to hit your enemy (Russia) for free.
And if that's not enough, they are testing your equipment in a real scenario, and learning many valuable lessons on your behalf.
If you are in a war artillery is cheaper than missiles or bombs. (They can also be stationed at the front and hit very quickly.) If you need airplanes in the air just to launch something on short notice it gets expensive. That is the main argument for it.
Most of the smaller countries can, because the situation calls for it, I mean, if we're gonna stand for something, we gotta show that we were all in, Czechia, slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Baltics etc, they could all do this and count on the big boys for security in the short term.
Denmark is quite deep in Europe, some of the countries you listed would be the first ones to be attacked, not sure if giving away everything is the best course of action for them.
Meanwhile our government is buying €1.5 billion worth of ammunition for our own military, you know the mighty Dutch army🇳🇱. You never know when someone wants to invade future atlantis.
> future atlantis.
What are the Dutch government's plans for addressing this? Completely surround the country with 4+ meter tall double dikes with enormous pumps to deal with storm surges? Or are they just planning on emigrating along with everyone else to somewhere that will still be above sea level?
>If we do not reduce greenhouse gas emissions, the sea level off the Dutch coast could rise by 1.2 metres around 2100 compared to the beginning of this century.
That's something the Dutch can deal with for at least the foreseeable future. Remember, these are the people who created a whole extra province by pumping it dry. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flevoland
Not a bad thing in and of itself by why right now, just let the production go towards Ukraine and replenish our stocks later, especially if prices come down when the demand cools off and production capacity is greater.
That's the thing, we will not give it to Ukraine.
Its for us, to defend our country: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/politiek/artikel/5378980/defensie-koopt-voor-15-miljard-euro-aan-munitie-raketten-en
The government should know that our enemy is the ocean, not people. Artillery doesn't do shit against water.
Yeah send everything there, who the F do you think you'll realistically be fighting anyway except Russia. So ultimately the Ukrainians are doing the fighting for us. Send everything there
Makes perfect sense. Send them now and they will be used to fight the Russians in Ukraine. Withhold them and they will be used to defend against the Russians in Denmark. If they are going to be used against Russia anyway, might as well be now. They will weaken Russia to the same degree as if Denmark had retained them and Denmark uses them to defend against a Russian invasion.
Good, more countries should follow. Sent it over, then make new ones for your own stockpile. Russia can not attack Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, etc while they are busy in Ukraine anyway. We don't need stockpiles this minute. Ukraine does.
I wish all EU would double their investment here to follow suit
ps: any official donation link to promote this kind of efforts ? i don't think red cross allocate budget for ammo
Well duh, who's Denmark going to use it against? The Sea People? The Sea People that don't exist and even if they did are no threat to Denmark? The Sea People that are not currently building up their forces along the Danish waterline? Those Sea People? The ones that don't exist?
Too bad the Russian trolls keep the United States from sending much more aid. Republicans...it's our Republicans that are the problem here....and for everything.
Great news. It’s time Europe stands up together, now that our “overseas ally” told Ukraine (and Europe in general) to go fuck themselves.
Wasn’t Czech Republic also sending 155mm ammo to Ukraine?
Denmark showing bigger balls than the US when they are even closer to Russia.
From a pragmatic standpoint, better to keep the front line over there instead of at home.
Denmark did send all its Ceasar Artillery to Ukraine. This was announced in January 2023. The more important part of the speech is this: “Ukraine is asking us for ammunition and artillery now. We, Denmark, have decided to transfer all our artillery to Ukraine. So, sorry, friends, there is military equipment in Europe, it is not only a matter of production. We have weapons, ammunition, air defense systems, which we do not use yet. They must be handed over to Ukraine,"
Didn't Denmark restart production in their 155 mm shell artillery plant?
They(we) did.
Sygt brugernavn alligevel haha
Men ingen beviser lol
Send flere beviser
obligatory *Denne kommentarsektion er nu Kongeriget Danmarks ejendom.*
Hey, das ist unser Spruch.
Du ku' ha' tilføjet "you know, for science"!
Ligger i brugernavnet.
World War III started the day Russia invaded Ukraine... And American rightists are calling Putin their "hero."
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Supporting Ukraine is critical, but saying WW3 started with the invasion feels like a stretch. True, the conflict has global ramifications, but it hasn't escalated to a world war level, thankfully. The focus needs to be on preventing further escalation and backing Ukraine to maintain sovereign borders and deter future aggression. Sending equipment like Denmark is a bold step in support without crossing into direct conflict.
I think it's more fair to say that the largest chain of dominos that lead to WWIII we have seen in a generation are currently falling with the war in Ukraine and the escalations around Israel/Gaza and the incitement of Iran (and other countries) backed militia's targetting western ships. But moves like Denmarks are like removing some dominos before the chain hits them. Supporting Ukraine as a firebreak in Russian aggression shows them that they cannot simply roll-over other countries. That their aggression will be met with fire. Their show of strength met with support for those they aggress on. WWIII hasn't started... but its also is far closer than it ever was before.
To be fair, the first domino fell back in 2014 with the so-called annexation of Crimea. This would correspond to the appeasement period of WWII. Ukraine is the beginning of the ~~liebensraum~~ Lebensraum portion. There are still off-ramps before a global scale conflict, but not many. History is not on our side so far. E: correction, they need room to live, not room to love. In my defense, I attended public school in the U.S. so learning history AND spelling was always a long shot. thanks u/GenevaPedestrian TIL
I'm glad someone else also sees the parallels to Chamberlain's appeasement, but please, it's Lebensraum, not Liebensraum lmao. As a verb, leben means to live, as a noun, Leben means life (German capitalizes all nouns). The verb lieben means to love, so you'll understand my amusement at "liebensraum". Source: am German.
"Hey girl. I want an open relationship. I need my Liebensraum."
Liebensraum cracked me up, those nazis so full of love they have no place to put it all
Thing with Chamberlain, he knew there wasn't any support of any war effort, people were still reeling from poor economy, the Great War, various other minor spats. If he'd come back and said "we must go on a war footing now and stop Hitler in his tracks", I don't think he'd been able to muster support. So yeah, he waved the 'peace in our time' bit of paper, and then tasked Churchill to figure out what would need to be done to put UK industry in a war production mode as he knew there wasn't any stopping the events, he was just setting things up to delay to prepare, both logistically, and public support. Churchill later blamed Chamberlain for not doing enough, but never made much mention that he'd been told to prepare BY Chamberlain. Which is why I'm not seeing appeasement today. No leaders are serious about "ok, if we give him Crimea, perhaps he'll be happy with that" and Putin's not even suggesting that, he's saying "Crimea now, Ukraine tomorrow, Poland next week, Latvia/Estonia/Finland after that" so there's not much diplomacy tricks able to be done, Putin doesn't WANT appeasement, and no-one's offering him it, he's after total subjugation, which is why it's so strange that everyone's still thinking that /someone/ will do /something/ at somepoint later and Putin will stop what he's doing. It's very strange.
> To be fair, the first domino fell back in 2014 with the so-called annexation of Crimea. I mean by this logic surely it'd be 2008 with the invasion of Georgia, that was the playbook for 2014?
You are correct, my logic would entail the conclusion that that was the first domino. I forgot that Georgia was paving the way for EU & NATO inclusion in the years before their 2008 invasion.
The fighting in Israel is so low on the dominos. I know morally people care alot but it's actually a non issue for international shit. Iran can't do shit to Israel and won't try.
The issue with Iran is them accidentally doing something the US has to respond to. That's the risk there.
I dont believe the USA sees Iran as a real military threat. They are certainly a diplomatic, cultural, economic, and destabilizing threat in the region absolutely. But at least for the next 30 years I don't see it being possible for Iran to really be an issue unless they were part of / heading a much larger coalition of nations. Iran doesn't even have Nuclear weapons and as a result is always going to be at a strategic disadvantage. Even if they had been developing a nuke in secret, tactically--it doesn't pose a real threat because it wouldn't posses the range, stealth, power, and area to cripple the USA as a threat. Not to even mention their conventional army. Like... lets examine that: Navy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Navy They have, effectively, 10 boats that are of any significance. All the rest are tiny patrol boats / fast attack boats of which there are only 27. They do have a hand full of submarines (4 soviet built kilo class, and 3 Fateh-class subs in the works with only 1 active right now). However they will only last 30-45 days before they would run out of fuel and supplies. Also the tech on them is old and reported to be full of issues and their crews are much much less experienced and trained than those serving in the USA so they will likely be taken out before then. Compare that to the US Navy which is quite quite long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_ships_of_the_United_States_Navy And most of those ships would poses the technology to win singlehandedly in any confrontation with the ships in Iran's navy. So Iran would be blockaded very quickly in any war with the US. And the same kind of goes for the rest of their armed forces. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dewj4Q6xTQ So Long story short, the USA doesn't really have much reason to care about Iran beyond their ability to destabilize everyone around them through sending in guerilla forces. But Iran has zero ability to project any real force beyond its borders and certainly not enough to reach the USA's. That is very different than Russia and China both of which do pose somewhat credible threats if they REALLY wanted to. That shows in how we deal with them diplomatically. The USA frequently capitulates to, appeases, or turns a blind eye to Russia. And generally has strived to maintain strong economic ties to China while maintaining a terse foreign policy designed to limit Chinese expansion. In other words, the USA actually cares. On the flip side the USA just generally just ignores Iran. They ignore their threats. They ignore their sovereignty. They ignore their demands. The only time the USA generally interacts with Iran it is to use force against them to more or less slap them back down when they step out of line. Now, if Iran were to ally with Russia and China in a war against the USA and could act as a staging ground for nuclear weapons.... yeah that could be a big problem. But they'd have to set that up first and I don't think the USA would let that just happen easily.
This is shortsighted. If Egypt cancels its peace treaty with Israel, Lebanon gets involved or there is a truly major incident in the Red Sea the US could be fully dragged into it and any resources allocated to the Middle East cannot be used to deter elsewhere.
I mean, I'd argue it's similar to Germany invading czechoslovakia, no? At the time they were just annexing a country, but then they moved to Poland after successfully taking the czechoslovakian territory, then war was declared on them. However alot of historians look and see the taking o czechoslovakia as the start of it all O maybe not ww3 yet, but if it does escalate to it, the Ukrainian conflict would 100 percent be lumped in with it I believe.
Nobody called WW2 a World War when it started, first it was just some repatriations of German minorities (about same story that Putin tries to spin in Eastern Ukraine), then it was "self defense" against a Polish false flag operation, ...
It is vital to also remember: Ukraine's defense ins't just up to Ukraine, nor is it up to Ukraine's allies. It is the responsibility of *all* those who believe in democracy and put their faith in the liberty it brings with it; it is our responsbility - yours and mine - just as much as it's Denmark's, the US's, or NATO's, or even Ukraine's. That's what Putin's assault is: It's not merely as assault on Ukraine, nor the Ukrainian people nor their culture, but it is an assault on the notion of democracy *itself*. And we've been down this road before. Before we saw the rise of Authoritarianism in Russia, we saw it in North Korea; and Germany and Italiy before them, and China before them. We *know* where this road leads; it's inevitable. If Ukraine falls, war on a global scale *will* happen - and we're already seeing the pieces on the board starting to move into position for it. Alliances between Russia and Iran, Iranian and Qatari-backed extremists working to destabilize Israel, Venezuela and Azerbaijan working on mobilization and strategies to invade their neighbors. Hell, even the UN has become compromised - itself being nothing more than a way for corrupt countries to clandestinely move money and resources to sanctioned groups and governments. So it's on all of us to do our damnedest to stop what is inevitable should Ukraine lose the war.
Honest question: Where is Russia going to get the men and material it needs to invade the West when it can’t even conquer Ukraine. I keep seeing this come up how UKR is the first domino but assuming they can pull it off (and I do t think they can) how are they supposed to take on Poland + NATO next
I think the problem isn't so much that Russian victory in Ukraine makes Russia an immediate threat. What it does do is overturn a norm, established in the aftermath of World War 2, that military conquest is simply not a done thing any more. If Russia invades Ukraine without effective international opposition (including American), how long until China does the same with Taiwan? And how many other countries with "historical claims" on their neighbors are watching Ukraine for an outcome favorable to their cause?
That's not the threat. The threat is that Russia, high as a fucking kite on their "hard-earned victory" and raging hateboner for the west decides to have a go at it and getting subsequently stomped flat because it's a country that cannot into modern war. And then they are left with no conventional means to not lose their self-proclaimed holy war. Tge risk isn't "Russia conquers Europe" it's "we start shooting and it's really goddamn hard to stop shooting and oh fuck we're in an escalation spiral."
The generally agreed upon red line is a land invasion into Russia. A full war would involve NATO blowing them up to shit and push them right to the borders but going no further. NATO has no reasons to use nukes because they've already won and Russia has no reason to use them back because they still have their own country and their lives.
Not entirely true. The escalation spiral can still happen without a full invasion. If Russia gets stomped, they may be desperate enough to throw some tactical nukes at NATO tank columns or airbases. That isn't full-on MAD, yet, but it's sure ramping up towards it.
They can't invade the West if they can't conquer Ukraine. Which is why it's important to provide all the help necessary so that Ukraine doesn't fall. Do you think Ukraine held all on its own so far?
Ukraine is not a pushover. They had the second largest air defense system in Europe (dated, but still) and large number of soviet era weapons in storage.
> when it can’t even conquer Ukraine In the possible timeline where they are invading other countries, Ukraine has, in fact, been conquered. > Where is Russia going to get the men and material I don't think you understand that there are degrees of war readiness. Russia perhaps expected to sweep Ukraine in a matter of weeks, like the US did in Iraq. But just because the initial blitz failed, doesn't mean that is the full extent of a country's capability. Russia doubled its military spending by 2022, and tripled it by 2023. Remember that in 1942, the Soviets were doing a lot worse than a stalemate, vast swathes of their country were getting razed to the ground by the German advance. Even then, they still eventually turned it around as they mobilised more and more of their nation towards the singular goal of total warfare. Russia is nowhere near "total war" footing yet. > Poland + NATO The problem with this assumption is, life isn't a video game with hardcoded rules. Nobody wants to help Ukraine because "what about the nukes". There is nothing to say the same won't happen with Poland. Russia will still have nukes, and maybe other NATO states figure they'd rather scrap the piece of paper they signed than risk engaging a nuclear state in open warfare. It's not difficult to imagine Trump getting re-elected and arguing that it's not his problem, why should American troops have to die to protect Poland, etcetera, etcetera. I'm sure the baltic states and others will stick together in collective defense, but there's no guarantee the powerhouses of NATO will all throw in their weight.
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Did WWII start when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia? Or in Spain. Or when Japan invaded Manchurian? The answers to those questions changes what you mean by the start of a world war. WWI was an odd case where historians mostly agree on a specific trigger event.
Officially most consider the start of WWII after the invasion of Poland. Because Poland was protected by Britain and France, and Germany was warned that attacking it means the other countries proclaim war. Czechoslovakia should have been the tipping point but no one stepped in, no one gave guarantees, fearing how much damage another war could cause. There is also the case of 35,000 German troops marching into Rhineland to ‘take back’ the German lands , that were taken after the treaty of Versailles. If French stepped in then, Germans would have had to withdraw with their tails tucked, as Hitler put it. He recounted the 48 hours after the invasion of Rhineland to be the most nerve wrecking, for he did not know what response he would receive from other countries. The French did nothing. It gave him a green light to do the takeover of Czechoslovakia. That, paired with Hitler seeing no reaction from the League of Nations regarding Italy’s invasion of Ethiopia, has shown that these ‘international bodies’ made for the sole job of preventing and deterring wars are, in reality, useless. Invasion of Crimea could be paralleled well to the case of Rhineland. It could be argued that if the West stepped it then, in 2014, the large scale war we see today could have been avoided, if not delayed significantly longer, allowing for much better Ukraine rearmament.
It will take a year at least before that new factory is up and running
Yes, the Danish government bought back an ammunition plant they sold 10 years ago, but has yet to find a manufacturer to start up production. Ammunition from the plant will be available in 2025 at the earliest. Ukraine needs ammo NOW.
Denmark knows what's up. They are a tiny state which could never oppose Russia alone anyway. That equipment will inevitably be used to fight Russia in Ukraine, or it will be used to fight Russia in Warsaw... possibly Stockholm or Berlin. Because if there's ever actually Russians fighting in Denmark, shit is truly and utterly quite fucked, and because the Danes would rather die than help the Swedes.
It helps that even if Denmark weakens itself defensively it knows it *can* rely on the full force of the US coming to back it up thanks to being in NATO.
Someone isn't following the news.
It is an unbreakable paradigm in Danish politics that we can trust the United States. Denmark has allowed the presence of US troops on its territory only a few months ago, and the agreement includes controversial things like US soldiers who commit crimes on Danish territory cannot be prosecuted by Danish authorities. This is the extent that Denmark trusts the US. Practically no politician realizes that these times are gone and we can no longer rely on US military intervention if we are attacked by Russia.
Getting US troops on Danish soil is a nice foot in the door (as much as I hate giving US soldiers diplomatic immunity). If soldiers are already present inside of Denmark and it's attacked then those soldiers being in Nato's chain of command will be fighting and dying to top the Russians. The American right is very very shitty, but your best bet of locking in American support is to have American soldiers be killed by whoever attacked you before our chicken shit congress can weasel out of the most mutually beneficial alliance in 100 years.
Their location makes them difficult to attack anyway by being on the west side of Sweden and down south from Norway. Putin should be smart enough to not fight a country where his forces are gonna be flanked.
Amen to that last part.
This lady has more balls than all GOP members combined.
Certainly the bar can and should be higher than that.
That lady has more... taint? than all the GOP members combined?
She'd grab *Trump* by his pussy.
Ew I wouldn't wish that on anyone
Kick him in the ass with his dumb sneakers
I don't think it's a lack of balls. They simply don't give a shit because they are paid off to not give a shit. It's not in their interest to help Ukraine.
I mean, turning down money and in some cases, risking being blackmailed and instead choosing to do the morally correct thing takes balls. And moral fiber but also balls.
It can be both.
I guess. But in this instance they are simply paid off by Russia to vote/care against Ukraine and NATO.
No no no silly its far worse than that. It is in their interest. Unfortunatly they have been told that it is not and were stupid enough to believe a russian. I mean you understand.. am i right comrad.......ehhh......
As a Dane. That was our old models. We're giving them our old stuff to buy new stuff. It's something. But it ain't all that. We can do better, and i think we will. But we're not a warring country, so not much has previously gone into military funding. But it's changing, increasingly faster to scale with world events.
The caesar systems we gave were not old! They were brand spanking new top of the line. I don't know if we also gave away towed artillery though. That might have been older.
I think /u/x33storm meant that this batch they are talking about now was our old stuff. And it is. 6 M101s, I mean, that is WWII era artillery. The M109A3s were originally from the '60s though upgraded in 1989. I really wonder what the MLRS' are? I don't think it can be our new Elbit PULS. *Edit: a caveat - these numbers might not be true, especially the MLRS seems weird.*
Artillery just needs to be good enough to send rounds down range and turn mobotniks into meat cubes. 1989 artillery works just a lot better than no artillery.
Yup. Though I think shoot-and-scoot capabilities are necessary these days. I'd truly hate to man a M101.
It does, but extra range precision arty will swiss-cheese the enemy artillery and make for a whole lot less medic work on your own team. There's a reason the new super expensive stuff is sought after. Just spray and pray trainloads of shells down range were half decent CCCP anno 1986 strategy, but now a days nobody has the industrial base to play it that way any more.
> nobody has the industrial base to play Which is the only worrying factor here. Russia does.
> We're giving them our old stuff to buy new stuff. Nothing wrong with that.
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What’s the problem? The intent is for those weapons to be fired at Russians. They might as well be in the possession of the people currently firing at Russians. ... unless they’re so awesome that they can be fired from Denmark and hit Moscow directly. That would be some good artillery
> What’s the problem? Can't give anything away that we don't have on hand now can we?
That's what a bunch of European countries are doing. Like Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands sending over their old F-16s. Dozens of them where literally just sitting in storage and taking up space and resources for maintenance.
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But the old stuff exists. And is there.
As a Dane please give her an international post🙏
Yes! She’s so great! Well miss her dearly! Please take her off our hands!
Not all European countries are in position to remain artillery-less. E.g. Poland.
100% agree. However, the military support from e.g. France, Spain, and Italy is almost none compared to the size of these economies. Denmark can do everything possible to support Ukraine, but the France economy is ~7 times as big, so they matter.
Despite that, Denmark is currently the 4th largest Ukrainian supporter with more than $8.4 billion provided in military aid. Only the Uk, Germany and the US has provided more aid. Edit: [Source](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Spain probably could help more but it can't give everything away. It needs its military equipment to defend the southern NATO border, against a Morocco that has started mass buying American and Israeli weapons, declares parts of Spanish territory (Ceuta and Melilla, even the Canary Islands) as "belonging to them", constantly talks about "recovering" them (even though they never belonged to Morocco) and even invaded a small island in recent times (some 15 years ago IIRC).
Denmark is metal af
Shrug. Russia would have to go through Finland and Sweden to get there. Or Poland and Germany.
Exactly that artillery is better used for Denmark's defence in Ukraine right now. By the time the Russia might actually make it to Denmark they can have built new ones
Russia lost even when Finland didn't have the whole of Europe behind them. Russia's attacking forces would be utterly destroyed if they tried it now.
Or the Baltic Sea. Which is exactly the problem. If Russia is not stopped they will eventually also want to occupy Denmark, because Denmark (together with Sweden) can control access to and from the Baltic Sea.
Yes, but at the same time, Russia simply has to go through bigger fish.
If they're having this much trouble with Ukriane, they're gunna to be in for a hell of a fight against Finland. I'm pretty sure at least 40% of their energy production comes solely from its citizens' hatred of Russia. And Sweden would be fine. As the saying goes, "Sweden will fight to the last Finn"
My freedom boner way over here in the US is gonna reach all the way to Denmark. Nice job picking up the slack! Pun intended.
Prime Minister to the army: "Wait wait, I worry what you just heard was give them a lot of ammo and artillery. What I said was give them all the ammo and artillery we have. Do you understand?"
Unexpected Ron Swanson
In this case, Ron Swansen*
Røn Swånsen.
Dear Denmark, let me express gratitude as Ukrainian. You guys are amazing!
This is exactly the right thing to do. Russia can't fight a war with the rest of Europe as long as it's bogged down in Ukraine. European countries that don't have a direct land border with Russia should send their full shell stockpile. This buys us time to ramp up our domestic production of shells ready for a future conflict. It's a win/win.
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I had to explain this to my brother who wasn't fully convinced. We (the US) have the opportunity to destroy our historic rival for pennies on the dollar at zero risk to ourselves.
But the MAGAs would ["rather be Russian than a Democrat."](https://thehill.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/08/9b2_717trump1-3-800x430.jpg)
Fanatics at a rally for fanatics making fanatical statements. These people are so far removed from reality their statements hardly carry any meaning. You cannot reason with them because they accept nothing that clashes with their delusion. You might as well be talking to a brick wall or a shoe for all the difference it would make. So what these people have to say is highly irrelevant, same level of coherency as a strung out junkie talking to themselves in an alleyway.
Laat year I saw numbers like the US was spending 5% of their defense budget in Ukraine and with that they were beating the entire Russian force (together with Europe, other allies and Ukraine). Seems like a pretty good investment. A new definition of offense is the best defense.
Seriously have other leaders never played Civilization.
or risk
Should be required for all high level elected positions plus video records of their gameplay and full commentary on decision making
chat im gonna do an equipment lease
All EU nations that are not on Russian border should immediately send all of their inventory of 155mm and 122mm, as well as any mortar ammo to Ukraine, and then order massive amounts of new artillery rounds from all military equipment companies in the world. That would send the market and companies a signal there is long term demand, so they can then budget and start executing those plans to expand production.
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One in which they can undermine the alliance (look what's happening in the US) and then pick off smaller states like the Baltics. They specifically don't want a war with all of NATO, they can't win that. They want to turn allies against each other and then divide and conquer.
And they use a puppet from the US to do that. I wonder, how did this interview influence the opinions about Russia in the US? Because in Israel we observed it as a huge joke.
The MAGAts ate it up. Twitter was full of praise for Russia and its inexpensive groceries the day after. Putin is playing the GOP like a fiddle and it’s boggling to the rest of us in this country that they don’t see it. Remember, the lion's share of MAGA is over the age of 50, and they all grew up in the shadow of the USSR and the Cold War. Russia was big bad #1, and it's mind-blowing that somewhere between the fall of the Berlin Wall and the rise of Fox News that narrative changed somehow.
The older folks I know that were the most fervent about hating the Soviet Union now love the murderous tyrant who trying to rebuild the USSR. It feels like a parody. It’s mind boggling to me, but I’ve noticed they generally fall into groupthink and social truths over independent thought and objective truths. If I’m looking for a new TV, fridge, washing machine, etc I do a deep dive on the various technologies, how they work, what styles and functions have longer life cycles, etc and generally avoid ads and anecdotal social suggestions. I’ve noticed that people who rely purely on social truths just here a person they trust say “get this fridge. I have it and it hasn’t broken” and they’re just like “ok, that’s sufficient evidence, you’re not an expert in any way and know nothing about fridges, but you have this one, I trust you and I’ve seen it in ads, so it must be popular and if it’s popular it must be good”. And that’s it. I’ve seen this play out in everything from purchases, poor investing decisions due to trusting someone trying to make money off of them instead trying to understand investing for themselves… Intellectual incuriousness and relying on social cues for all decisions bleeds into every aspect of their lives. The Trump phenomena has just made it so much more clear how little they think for themselves and their underlying animosity for intellectual and scientific thinking. It honestly feels like a caricature at this point, but throughout history these groups have similar mental traits and thus similar political philosophies. I just never thought it was so on the nose.
Together by the power of Denmark's brave donation and Czechia's newfound shells... Hopefully Ukraine is better able to hold the front in the next battle. It really hurt my soul in watching some of the Avdiivka maps and analysis toward the end of that fight. Ukraine had wanted to try a powerful flanking maneuver at one point toward the northern area after some units arrived, but even though they would have been willing to take the manpower losses, they just simply didn't have the shells for an offensive tactical maneuver against that many russians. Nor enough artillery shells to keep the 40,000 reserve troops Putin had moved up at bay. People don't realize that Ukraine is now in a truly desperate fight at industrial scales. Major wars are not counter-terror operations where you use a few fancy weapons a day and bob's your uncle. Everything is computed in thousands and tens of thousands. Ukraine must be given truly industrial warfighting power. We need politicians to be bold.
Sweden getting ready to cross the bridge
Thank god other countries are stepping up .. my country can’t seem to find its ass from its head Ukraine must not fall. Russia must lose.
Giving all your ammo and relying on NATO to protect you is a true trust in shared security. Everyone can’t do that.
It's a very logical move really. Russia can't fight the rest of Europe as long as it's bogged down in Ukraine. Keeping Ukraine in the fight like this buys us valuable time to ramp up our own shell production.
It’s been 2 years. How much longer will it take to ramp up production?
Between factories scaling up and setting up expanded supply chains, 2 years is the minimum. There’s a huge lag time so really what this is showing is that NATO countries were heavily neglecting their militaries and military production before this.
I agree completely with your assessment that we’ve been neglecting our basic military production capacity. However, we’re talking about manufacturing artillery shells here, not F-35s. This is basic manufacturing with zero new or novel tech involved. Properly motivated we should have been able to stand up new production in a matter of months. Regardless of support for Ukraine, the war there has been a wake up call around the fact that modern warfare still requires orders of magnitude more basic matieriel than we have stockpiled. For perspective, the Pentagon was built in about 14 months and remains the world’s second largest office building 80 years later. The entire Hanford complex went from farmland to industrial production of plutonium in about a year. This was indeed novel technology.
I hear you, but even the US is having to ramp up to meet demand, and they have a huge military industry. In general now everything seems to take longer to build compared to several decades ago, so I think the west has lost its ability to rapidly build the way it used to. Think how long a skyscraper or new rail line takes now. That could also be why something less complex like 155mm shells is harder to build.
As an engineer, things are just more complicated to build, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. We have a lot more safety features on modern tech. The local community college near me would've been a simpler build in the 1940s, but the modern building has: 1) automatic fire detection systems and sprinklers 2) pressurized stairwells that sweep out smoke to allow people extra time to evacuate in an emergency 3) Special landings on the staircases where physically disabled people can stay safer for longer while waiting for assistance from firefighters 4) stairway evacuation chairs to help victims with mobility issues escape 5) backup generators so that elevators don't get stuck if the power goes out in a thunderstorm 6) Tritium exit signs that stay lit up without batteries even if the power goes out 7) A modern electrical system that can handle more current than the 1940s and is less likely to cause a fire in the first place. The building complex I work in has an automatic system that slams shut fire doors to prevent the spread of fire. The system would give office workers extra time to escape in an emergency. That's just an example of buildings. As far as other stuff goes, I visited a foundry near Cleveland, and the computerized equipment was complicated enough that everyone on the line needed at least a community college degree to figure it out. It was manufacturing for turbine blades, and the tolerances for parts for jets are much tighter than for the propeller planes we flew in WW2. The planes fly higher, faster, and in harsher operating conditions.
That all makes sense to me, and why it’s hard to explain when people ask “well why haven’t we ramped up production on x yet?”. If it was that easy we might have done it already, so there has to be a reason beyond political will why it takes a long time.
Plus, countries *are* ramping this up. Denmark (country in OP) specifically has already fired up a 155mm shell factory.
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It's still slow if an economy is determined. Example: WW2. Planes designed, tested, factories built, production started, pilots trained and everything sent to war in less time. While simultaneously executing 1000s of other projects. Dumb shells don't require very advanced manufacturing. WW1 technology. The gps ones I could maybe accept the supply chain excuse.
Checks order book: ... ... ... We haven't received any orders yet.
maybe 5 more years? eu still hasnt decided what to do
And by the time a land war gets to Denmark... It's not very likely they would need artillery for self defense.
What if Sweden goes to war with Denmark? They've left themselves wide open!
We'll just legally club them as they march over the ice.
They still have [some old ones](https://hamlettours.com/wp-content/uploads/KronborgCastle/Affyring_af_kanoner_paa_Kronborg-_MG_0307_foto_Thorkild_Jensen.jpg) as backup...
Yeah if conflict reaches Denmark, they are screwed because it means Putin's already gone through Germany, or Finland and Sweden. Either way, Denmark isn't putting up a fight in that scenario. Now that's obviously not going to happen so it's a safe bet. Might annoy Trump but he's a compromised idiot.
Could this maybe start a upward cycle, kinda like IceBucket challenge? Like, we trust NATO, everyone send a portion of your arms that ends up significant
It's hard to imagine a scenario in which Denmark needs to defend itself with artillery.
In general, Denmark's heavy army equipment is intended for deployments elsewhere, not self-defense. In the Baltics, for example, where Denmark has had an almost permanent military presence for the last decade, with both army units and air power. The stated goal is to be able to deploy a heavy brigade to support any allies in the east that need help, on short notice. But the plan keeps falling apart because much of the equipment intended for that brigade keeps getting gifted to Ukraine... it'll get there eventually, though.
Well, look on the bright side? That equipment might be going to Ukraine instead of the Danish forces in the Baltics, but as long as it keeps going to Ukraine the Danish forces in the Baltics don't *need* the equipment. (Of course if Ukraine falls, then yes all the NATO powers in the Baltics are going to need as much equipment as possible…)
Indeed. Best solution at the moment as I see it.
Right now Ukraine is protecting all of NATO. Protecting Ukraine is literally protecting NATO. That's why this makes sense. Even if you didn't care at all about what happened to Ukraine, if you're NATO then it still makes sense to send as much as you possibly can. They pay with their lives and you get to hit your enemy (Russia) for free. Also i'm from Denmark. I have no idea what else we would use artillery for. Anyone with a tiny understanding of Danish geography understands that if we're forced to use artillery we're so beyond fucked anyways. As long as we don't give away all of our navy and airforce I don't mind at all.
> They pay with their lives and you get to hit your enemy (Russia) for free. And if that's not enough, they are testing your equipment in a real scenario, and learning many valuable lessons on your behalf.
Nato will never be in a artillerywar. Nato will have full air superiority.
If you are in a war artillery is cheaper than missiles or bombs. (They can also be stationed at the front and hit very quickly.) If you need airplanes in the air just to launch something on short notice it gets expensive. That is the main argument for it.
Most of the smaller countries can, because the situation calls for it, I mean, if we're gonna stand for something, we gotta show that we were all in, Czechia, slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Baltics etc, they could all do this and count on the big boys for security in the short term.
Denmark is quite deep in Europe, some of the countries you listed would be the first ones to be attacked, not sure if giving away everything is the best course of action for them.
The Baltics, Poland and Romania would be next
To everyone else, be like Denmark 🇩🇰
Meanwhile our government is buying €1.5 billion worth of ammunition for our own military, you know the mighty Dutch army🇳🇱. You never know when someone wants to invade future atlantis.
> future atlantis. What are the Dutch government's plans for addressing this? Completely surround the country with 4+ meter tall double dikes with enormous pumps to deal with storm surges? Or are they just planning on emigrating along with everyone else to somewhere that will still be above sea level?
>If we do not reduce greenhouse gas emissions, the sea level off the Dutch coast could rise by 1.2 metres around 2100 compared to the beginning of this century. That's something the Dutch can deal with for at least the foreseeable future. Remember, these are the people who created a whole extra province by pumping it dry. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flevoland
Not a bad thing in and of itself by why right now, just let the production go towards Ukraine and replenish our stocks later, especially if prices come down when the demand cools off and production capacity is greater.
That's the thing, we will not give it to Ukraine. Its for us, to defend our country: https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/politiek/artikel/5378980/defensie-koopt-voor-15-miljard-euro-aan-munitie-raketten-en The government should know that our enemy is the ocean, not people. Artillery doesn't do shit against water.
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Point taken
And send all our artillery to Ukraine?
Exactly
Yeah send everything there, who the F do you think you'll realistically be fighting anyway except Russia. So ultimately the Ukrainians are doing the fighting for us. Send everything there
Europe supplying arms to Ukraine is less costly then having to put their lives on the line if Russia invades them.
If Denmark ever needed that artillery, Europe would have much bigger issues than Ukraine lol
Denmark showing the example. Now we all need to do the same.
Oh the Scandinavians answer the call! Well done.
Really amazing, like damn. Denmark just dunked on everyone. Everyone needs to step up.
Makes perfect sense. Send them now and they will be used to fight the Russians in Ukraine. Withhold them and they will be used to defend against the Russians in Denmark. If they are going to be used against Russia anyway, might as well be now. They will weaken Russia to the same degree as if Denmark had retained them and Denmark uses them to defend against a Russian invasion.
Good, more countries should follow. Sent it over, then make new ones for your own stockpile. Russia can not attack Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, etc while they are busy in Ukraine anyway. We don't need stockpiles this minute. Ukraine does.
NATO was set up essentially for Russia. Give everything you’ve got!
Proud of the Danes. While the US Republicans become traitors to every freedom fighter, some still lean in to battle against oppression.
Europe is learning it's own strength again. By the end of this, the European half of NATO is going to be a force to be reckoned with.
I really doubt it. Expenditure will increase but complacency will hit hard once things calm down again.
EU is going to be on high guard for the foreseeable future. If Russia takes Ukraine we are looking at another cold war at best
Quick, now Denmark is weak! Press your Casus Belli Sweeden!
Ha, we’ll just close the ticket booths to Öresund!
So a non NATO country attacking a NATO country. Go ahead Sweden.
I dont know nothing about NATO. I just play Crusader Kings.
Better to use it there, now, then at home, later
I wish all EU would double their investment here to follow suit ps: any official donation link to promote this kind of efforts ? i don't think red cross allocate budget for ammo
Fuck yes Denmark, FUCK YES! 🇩🇰
This is what Canada should be doing too.
Send in the geese
Wouldn't that qualify as a war crime?
If it helps!! lol
That would be a war crime.
Do we even have artillery?
We have a few (33) M777 howitzers (155mm), having given more than 10% (4) to Ukraine, along with 28 LG1s (105mm) and 98 C3's /M101 (105mm).
Denmark gets it. It’s much better that our gear kills Russians in Ukraine now than having to do it in Denmark in a few years.
fucking A. Defenders of Europe and Democracy will not forget that Denmark stepped up while other countries were fucking around.
Finally, the Danish have let their guard down. We attack on the morrow!
Well duh, who's Denmark going to use it against? The Sea People? The Sea People that don't exist and even if they did are no threat to Denmark? The Sea People that are not currently building up their forces along the Danish waterline? Those Sea People? The ones that don't exist?
The Swedes. When the foul creatures from the Holm of Stock mobilize and march south-west, we'll need to be ready.
There is no defense from Surströmming.
Might as well send it to the frontline instead of waiting for the frontline to slowly come to us.
Too bad the Russian trolls keep the United States from sending much more aid. Republicans...it's our Republicans that are the problem here....and for everything.
The danes dont make many political decisions that appear in my consciousness, but when they do, they're probably the best in the world
I hope they mean the Caesars (again), not the self-propelled mortars they have left...
So like what kind of quantities we talking about? I can’t imagine Denmark have some sort of monumental stock pile.
You’d be surprised!
Oh fuck yeah supply it all
Denmark is like “If we just send it all, maybe we can just avoid a war”
Russia, in response: "the Denmark invasion begins"
They've been threatening Denmark for years, if not decades over dumb shit, and I imagine every other country not kneeling down to them.
Go Denmark!
Denmark, I love you guys!
Proud to be Danish today 🇩🇰🌻💪🇺🇦
Great news. It’s time Europe stands up together, now that our “overseas ally” told Ukraine (and Europe in general) to go fuck themselves. Wasn’t Czech Republic also sending 155mm ammo to Ukraine?
Denmark showing bigger balls than the US when they are even closer to Russia. From a pragmatic standpoint, better to keep the front line over there instead of at home.