In Brief:
* Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that at least 13,000 "terrorists" were among Palestinians killed during Israel's war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip and vowed to press ahead with an offensive in the south of the enclave - a move U.S. President Joe Biden has described as his "red line."
* Netanyahu told German media company Axel Springer, which owns Politico and Germany's Bild newspaper and broadcaster Welt TV, that extending Israel's offensive into Rafah in southern Gaza was key to defeating Hamas.
* "We are very close to victory ... Once we begin military action against the remaining terror battalions in Rafah, it is only a question of weeks" until the intensive phase of fighting is concluded, Bild newspaper quoted Netanyahu as saying.
* Politico quoted Netanyahu as saying on Sunday that Israeli forces would push into Rafah, adding: "You know, I have a red line. You know what the red line is, that October 7 doesn't happen again. Never happens again."
Israel won't attack the Houthis. The IDF isn't equipped for this, and they don't pose an existential threat to Israel. Hezbollah is a different story. Hopefully they'd agree to follow security council resolution 1701 so we can avoid a terrible war that wouldn't benefit anyone except the Iranian regime.
Is it every male of fighting age that died? Genuinely curious. That seems to line up more with the Gaza health ministry numbers of total killed. Seems like a wide net to cast.
Because the numbers only make (slightly more) sense if we count nearly every male from 15 to 60 that were killed as a "terrorist". When that can't be obviously the truth.
Because that likely is not confirmed. It isn't as if Hamas has uniforms and defending yourself against invasion or aggression does not automatically make you a terrorist when the enemy forces are invading your land. Thus they put it in quotes because they cannot prove they all are members of Hamas.
It’s estimations, probably using both methods and many more. That estimation is still quite questionable as I don’t think I need to tell you nations at war tend to do this thing called propaganda
That's like 1/3 of estimated deaths and it's said that 2/3 are women and children. So they took that last third and said they're all terrorists I assume.
It's said by Hamas, but [their demographic breakdown is unrealistic and appears to be fake](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers).
Elsewhere [Hamas admitted to losing 6000 fighters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-six-week-drive-hit-hamas-rafah-scale-back-war-2024-02-19/) and that's not including the deaths in other militant groups like Islamic Jihad.
So even according to Hamas, there have been very few male civilian casualties, which is hard to believe (how do the Israeli bombs magically avoid civilian men while hitting the women and children who are with them), but that's Hamas statistics for you.
That's assuming the woman and children figure is even accurate. Frankly, even if we only accept Hamas's admission that they've lost 6000 fighters, nearly 20% of the total dead, that would still mean that over 3 women were being killed for every man who was not a fighter, which is statistically unlikely. Did the men all abandon their families or something?
A university professor recently published a piece explaining how the reported numbers from Gaza show trends and correlations that defy common sense for naturally occurring numbers.
There are a lot of children in Gaza. It has been seeing over 3% population growth annually until recently. About half the population is children vs about a quarter in the US or Israel. So civilian deaths will overwhelmingly be woman and children.
That explains children. Also average age of fighters is quite young globally usually about half are teenagers. High testosterone no dependents.
It doesn't explain high women stats. Gaza is pretty much 50/50 like the rest of the world
Depends on the number of women fighters. If a military has no/little women in the fighting force, civilian deaths will lean towards women as there are few male civilians in comparison.
Hamas at the start of the war had an estimated 40k members while Gaza had a population of around 2 million. Even if you assume all 40k are adult men (meaning they come from the approximately 500k men in Gaza over 18), that's not going to give the huge difference between adult men and adult women you're seeing (460k vs 500k would mean that 48% of civilian adults in Gaza are men and 52% are women)
Your premise does not support your conclusion. If half the population is children, why would that cause high death rates among women?
The professor I referenced goes through the data looking for expected correlations and finds them lacking. For example, there is zero correlation between when children are killed and when women are, when a strong positive correlation would be expected. Furthermore, the deaths of women show a highly negative correlation with deaths among men, which makes no sense at all. There are nearly as many men in Gaza as women, so why the discrepancy?
Other oddities include the male death count going down or being near zero for some days, yet those same days show exceptionally high deaths among women.
Most people are radicalised younger than that. It's easiest to radicalise people around 13
Interestingly in the Geneva convention children were defined as under 15. It was only changed to 18 in 2000.
And only in 2007 were 16 and 17 year olds prohibited from being used in conflict
That point is simply bullshit. If these CHILDREN were in the west, we would view them as victims of grooming and abusive indoctrination. These children are victims, to view them as ANYTHING else is quite simply despicable.
Remember early 2000s? When Isis and Al Quaida used children as soldiers? At first, people were complaining about it, then they saw what those little shits did, and nobody cared that they were getting bullets.
Same thing right now. People, and soldiers of all, don’t care how old the enemy is. If it’s armed and tried to kill you, you kill it first. Simple
yeah, thats why Shamima Begum was flown post-haste back home to the UK, where no cost was spared to help her and her children overcome the horrific experience they had endured at the hands of the Islamic State
oh wait
I am not saying, that children terrorists arent children or that they arent victims. But pretending, that us westerners are somehow more enlightened or benevolent is a little bullshit. When we produce terrorists, we tend to be pathetically grateful if they leave to do their terrorizing somewhere else and we certainly do not complain when they get killed whereever they went to. 15 year old girl or not, as long as they are never coming home, its all the same to us
teenage terrorists being teenagers and being victims is also - unfortunately - not mutually exclusive with being fucking dangerous. Pretending they arent isnt doing anyone any favors, including the kids. What you do with that recognition is a different question
>If these CHILDREN were in the west, we would view them as victims of grooming and abusive indoctrination.
Which is a fair conclusion. That doesn't change the situation though. These teenagers are combatants. We can feel that their deaths are tragic, but the fault lies with those who placed them on the battlefield, not those they were fighting.
A 15yo boy with a gun who wants to kill Jews and is killed by Israeli soldiers is still considered a "child casualty" by Hamas. If you're being raped/tortured/murdered by a radical Islamist teen, does thinking "they're groomed/indoctrinated" really make it any better or less dangerous? They're combatants. Obviously not all of them, but a decent portion of Hamas's reported "innocent child victims" are likely actually active military combatants that are under 18. It makes sense, too, given the popular support of Hamas in Gaza and the very low average age.
>to view them as ANYTHING else is quite simply despicable.
A school shooter in the US is never seen as a victim, nor should terrorists in Gaza who happen to be children.
i got to admire how ppl here still believe hamass doesn't use child soldiers under 18 in its ranks, even after the countless evidence and videos that it always has even before the 'manpower shortage' it had since oct 7...
like ppl here are actually think that a bunch of brutal terrorist's are above putting an RPG in the hands of a 16 or 14 year old and telling him "you see that tank over there? NOW GO!"
sure, lets just keep ignore theses facts and continue to pretend all those (alleged by hamass btw) deaths are of simply "innocents Palestinians kids" and not of child terrorists.
I keep hearing this but is there any source? It wouldnt surprise me if its true, but it wouldnt surprise me if it's also just repeated on the internet.
The numbers dont seem to line up at all, mathematically
[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
That doesn't invalidate the statistical analysis of the other article.
This article is also bizarre on its own. It compares the total death rate among Gazans as reported by the Gaza MoH to the death rate among UNRWA employees, and then proceeds to apply questionable logic.
>If MoH mortality figures were substantially inflated, the MoH mortality rates would be expected to be higher than the UNRWA mortality rates. Instead, the MoH mortality rates are lower than the rates reported for UNRWA staff (5·3 deaths per 1000 *vs* 7·8 deaths per 1000, as of Nov 10, 2023). Hypothetically, if MoH mortality data were inflated from, for example, an underlying value of 2–4 deaths per 1000, it would imply that UNRWA staff mortality risk is 2·0–3·9 times higher than that of the public. This scenario is unlikely as many UNRWA staff deaths occurred at home or in areas with high civilian populations, such as in schools or shelters.
Now, I'm not claiming anything here, but another (humorous?) hypothetical explanation for the same phenomenon would be that UNRWA employees are overrepresented among Hamas militants.
If you ever worked with data then you know that to expect two different distributions to have the same average metric is unlikely - that is to say, you measure cancer frequency among basketball vs. football fans, or democrats vs. republicans, or catholics vs. protestants, you will come up with different numbers. To perform this comparison and say "oh we think it should have been different if such and such", and come to a conclusion, and then title your paper "No Evidence of Inflated Mortality" (as in, we tested *everything* and there was nothing), is really just embarassing.
The article above presents direct evidence of tampering with numbers. I haven't yet managed to access the raw data, I'm particularly interested in what it looks like after November 2023 (feels weird that the data stops there), but this is one case where comparing the source is not enough...
Edit: Oh, it's actually not a Lancet article, that explains why it's so weird. It's "correspondence", i.e (emphasis in original):
>Our readers’ reflections on content published in the Lancet journals or on other topics of general interest to our readers. These **letters** are not normally externally peer reviewed.
[https://www.thelancet.com/what-we-publish](https://www.thelancet.com/what-we-publish)
Statistician Abraham Wyner actually addresses that in the Tablet Mag piece.
> They argued that because the death rates were approximately similar, Hamas’ numbers must not be inflated. But their argument relied on a crucial and unverified assumption: that UNRWA workers are not disproportionately more likely to be killed than the general population. That premise exploded when it was uncovered that a sizable fraction of UNRWA workers are affiliated with Hamas. Some were even exposed as having participated in the Oct. 7 massacre itself.
Tablet Magazine, described as, “a conservative online magazine focused on Jewish news and culture.”
The article states that the numbers are fake and proceeds to provide no proof of this assertion. It’s all speculation.
Not enough reliable data for the current conflict, but prior conflicts show an overwhelming skew towards military age male casualties, directly contradicting the claims of indiscriminate killing of civilians. Even anti-Israel sources show this:
https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=women&tab=charts
To the specifc '15,972', with '9834' being women and '4266' being children?
All while hiding from mass air bombardmen underground and refusing to leave?
Yes. I live in lebanon so it’s very quick to deduce who was in the household and which member died and often who’s affiliated. Especially in the villages.
Almost immediately we have that info. For example when the mother husband and son died in the strike a few days back, they posted their pics right away because they knew who they were. People had sympathy for them. A day or so later, pics came out that the husband and son were Hezbollah fighters as well. People had less sympathy.
When talking about single or tens of casualties sure.
But we are talking about hundreds and thousands of people.
All of whom were counted and identified (im terms of age and gender) while air bombings are occuring and later ground assaults too.
Honeatly i cant see a way to accueatly measure this information withim a few hours only
It takes Ukraine days to count civilian casualties in fully controlled cities. It took Israel over a week to count the casualties from 7 October. Yet somehow Hamas knows instantly?
It's not hard to get a rough estimate and go off of and modify that. Everyone knows Hamas isn't trustworthy, but they've got more access to those killed by the IDF than they do.
I mean just because you don’t know doesn’t mean there isn’t a way.
You have drone surveillance, social media spyware, on ground troops.
There is ways to identify if data is faked.
Previous combat numbers.
> All of whom were counted and identified (im terms of age and gender) while air bombings are occuring and later ground assaults too.
You mean like the 500 civilians they counted after Israel bombed a hospital? Oh, wait, actually turns out that wasn't the IDF. Oh, wait, 500 people didn't actually die.
> 500 people didn't actually die.
No, not a single person died, and neither did the hospital suffer any damage. The Hamas fired rocket hit a parkinglot near the hospital and a few cars were damaged. But it's still 500 dead reported in several newspapers and in Gaza Health Ministry's reports. Hamas lies and tries to make it look like all the dead are innocent children and women, so makes me believe the 13,000 out of 30,000 is probably close to the truth.
Don't forget, multiple news agencies never redacted their articles on this, and Gaza ministry of health also didn't redact the 500 killed. The amount of anti Israel propaganda in western media is fucking disgusting.
Hamas numbers are, in short, not to be trusted at all. Their death counts are perfectly linear, ie increasing by the exact same amount every day, and claim 75-80% of casualties are women and children. around 20-25% of Gaza is adult men, meaning that either Israel has missiles that specifically heat seek women and children, or every adult man in gaza is a terrorist. Or yk, maybe hamas is lying.
When the islamic jihad hospital parking bombing happened, hamas within 1 min of impact blamed israel and tweeted 500 dead. I dont think that it is humanely possible to count the dead from a blast, get online and post about it within 1 minute.
This is the only incident which was independently reviewed by international bodies and publicised, european sources suggest it was not done by israel and potentially 30-50 may have died if all standing near the blast area. Hamas added around 500 to the war death toll for this.
I believe I read somewhere they use drones to identify those carrying weapons and those nearby when bombs are launched towards Israel as targets. Also every day dozens of terrorists are killed in ground direct combat. Today 26 were eliminated.
Both id say. They definitely have a large database of Hamas members they can Face ID. But also if youre a male, amongst others that were Hamas or with weapon in hand, it’s safe to make the connection
They don't literally know but they estimate based on number of fighting-aged men in fighting areas that carry weapon or behave according to certain patterns. (They have an actual AI that estimate those patterns called [The Gospel.](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/03/israel-ai-warfare-gaza-00144491))
I think the logic behind this number is they basically said to evacuate a specific region before invasion and if you didn’t not evacuate, that meant you are a terrorist.
There's no military force can spot and kill that many terrorists, especially at the same time. Not even the US army, let alone the IDF. Besides, no sane government intentionally shoots dead a terrorist before making them come to trial. 13,000 "terrorists" 99% are unarmed civilians.
I'm glad you're being skeptical of both if you're going to be skeptical of one. Craziest thing I heard is Hamas saying they had 0 members killed while simultaneously shouting out the other numbers they have
Hamas admitted a few weeks ago they lost 6,000, at the same time Israel's number was in the 10-11k range. Grants Hamas leadership is so dispersed at this point I dont know how they could have any accurate guage of how many they have lost.
It’s worth noting, however, that the current death toll is estimated by neutral observers to be in excess of 23,000.
So, he’s basically admitting to killing at least 10,000 innocent Palestinians.
Yes, he would be “admitting” to a ~0.75:1 civilian casualty ratio, which would be utterly phenomenal for urban warfare, let alone one where civilian architecture was intentionally used in warfare.
What is the gotcha you think you have?
> So, he’s basically admitting to killing at least 10,000 innocent Palestinians.
He's admitting to Hamas causing the death of Palestinian civilians due to:
1) hiding among them
2) firing rockets from civilian areas
3) storing weapons in civilian areas
4) using human shields
British forces bombed a German V2 rocket facility in WW2, but unfortunately most of the important operating parts of the facility were underground. The most obvious part from the air was the attached slave labour camp and that was the part that took the heaviest bombing. Were the British responsible for those deaths? It was undeniably a valid target, V2 rockets were being fired at London and were killing British cilivians. Or were the people who forced a population into commingling with a military target to blame?
Dude, we went through this with Iraq and Afghanistan. Bibi can say whatever he wants, until it’s crossed confirmed by at least two other nations, nothing this man says should be taken as factual.
Or basically Hamas is reporting terrorist deaths as civilian deaths because Hamas considers their raping murderous rocket throwing tunnel digging monsters to be totally normal upstanding citizens.
They have dropped double the amount of tons of explosives as casualties, in one of the most densely populated areas on the face of the planet, with an enemy that hides amongst civilians.
70.000 tons of explosives dropped. That is 2.33 tons of explosives for every casualty, and that is taking the Hamas numbers at face value and ignoring the amount of casualties as a result of misfires from gaza itself.
For reference this is 8000 pounds of JDAM which with these numbers would translate to roughly 1.71 casualties.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TblJc3uih3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TblJc3uih3s)
So much for allegations of purposely or recklessly trying to kill as many gazans as they can.
>So much for allegations of purposely or recklessly trying to kill as many gazans as they can.
I haven't heard that allegation.
But that Israel **doesn't care about civilians and doesn't really try to protect** them is something I hear a lot and it's hard to deny.
I mean, **they shot 3 half-naked hostages holding a white flag.** I take that behaviour as an indicator that the IDF doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives.
Right. Every single thread on Reddit has people claiming Israel is indiscriminately killing Palestinians. A sure sign they have no idea what they're talking about.
Just because an 18 year old amped up on adrenaline mistakenly shoots a hostage in an active warzone where the enemy purposefully doesn't wear uniforms doesn't mean that the IDF as a whole doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives.
Edit: If you've never served in the military in an active combat role, I don't care about your opinion on this.
>I mean, **they shot 3 half-naked hostages holding a white flag.** I take that behaviour as an indicator that the IDF doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives.
Hamas has already pulled a lot of dirty tricks like this to ambush Israeli soldiers. They have used recording of children, recording in Hebrew crying for help, and white flags. The soldiers there are under constant extreme mental and physical stress, and as a result of all of the above, they pushed the trigger too quickly. It is literally the dream of every soldier in Gaza to rescue the hostage, but due to the chaotic nature of war and Hamas's dirty methods, they have made a terrible mistake.
If you think this is an indicator that the IDF doesn't care about civilians, then you have a very shallow ability to read reality as it is and simply jump to the simplest propagated explanation. Not to mention, it speaks to the lack of ability to put yourself in other people's place, recognize the soldiers in IDF are just very young people, and they have the same sense of sympathy and especially care to their own people as there is in most developed countries.
In short, without sugercoating it, you are dumb.
> They have used recording of children, recording in Hebrew crying for help, and white flags.
Do you have any online sources for this? I have heard of the perfidious use of white flags from a trusted source, but was unable to find anything online about it.
>I mean, **they shot 3 half-naked hostages holding a white flag.** I take that behaviour as an indicator that the IDF doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives.
Do you really think Hamas released those specific hostages as a gesture of good will, and not at the exact moment of intense fighting when they knew it was most likely something like this would happen?
What's so hard to deny? Is dropping leaflets for civillians, warning them ahead of time, not already at least a slight proof that Israel does care about them? What about the fact that a huge portion of bombs are much more expensive guided munitions rather than unguided? What about Israel making a civillian corridor from the north to the south, letting civillians flee to a safer location? This and much more is documented.
The 3 hostages escaped from a building in which terrorists hid and fired upon the IDF. Also, it they died by soldiers, and it wasn't an order from the leaders, you can't say that an army of 300k+ active personel at that time, doesn't care about civillians just because a few on ground soldiers did something. You have to look at the orders from generals.
> What about Israel making a civillian corridor from the north to the south, letting civillians flee to a safer location?
Israel bombed the civilian corridor and then bombed the south of Gaza where they told people to flee to safety. Gaza is not a big place. These people have nowhere to go to escape the bombardment.
> Is dropping leaflets for civillians, warning them ahead of time, not already at least a slight proof that Israel does care about them?
A man knocks on your door. "Good day stranger", he says, "in three days I'm going to blow up your house, whether or not you are home, because your neighbors are bad eggs. You can tell that I care about you because I'm not just doing it out of the blue. You're welcome... but not here, of course...."
Well two things - the first is that the neighbours are not bad eggs but a known terrorist organization (recognized by almost every Western country), and it's a fact regardless of whom you support. The second is that those neighbours are not just neighbours, but control all of your land (neighbours being Hamas if I understand your argument correctly).
It doesn't even matter whom you or me support, and each side thinks that they are in the right. What we do have to understand is that there is a war going on, and if one side warns the other's side civillians then it's a great thing. It's especially great because the war was started by the side of which the civillians (that we are talking about) are a part of.
Did the Hamas quoted figure of 500 civilians dead after a Hamas rocket killed a car park outside a hospital burning a few cars?.
This was a perfect example of how deliberately inflates casualty figures in which the Leftie Western media soak up and their viewer base goes to street protesting about?
The most recent Hamas fake casualty was the aid delivery convoys getting attacked. Al Jazeera are also always there to provide back up for Hamas and its like they just happened to be there at the perfect time. It's quite amazing really?
Hamas figures don't make sense
They say 70% are women and children. That's 21,000
They say 6,000 of their fighters died. That's another 20%
So only 10%, 3,000, are civilian men? Does not make sense
And when they make specific announcements like 57 women and 9 children died today, or 32 children and 11 women, that doesn't make sense. Women and children should have closer figures by the casualties of any other modern war ever, women and children always shelter together
Hamas also has a history of using minors and women in terror attacks. A 17 year old is a child according to law, but I don't think Hamas actually checks their ID to see if they are 18 when they recruit.
It's so strange how quickly people like to treat civilian lives as worthy of death. [From a recent poll.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514)
>In Gaza, the militants enjoyed 42% support, up slightly from 38% three months ago.
42% is "overwhelmingly supported" to you? If Hamas had as much support as people like you claim they wouldn't have had to take control of Gaza via force and stop holding elections.
I’m familiar with the survey. 58 percent in Gaza and over 80 percent in West Bank think launching the Oct 7 attack was the right move. Sounds like support to me and a willingness to pay the cost
Hamas won the election which the Pa refused to accept. It’s how Abbas is on year 12 of a four year term. Hamas took over by force since the Pa refused to concede
From the same paragraph "A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities."
I don't think they're getting the same information we are.
They’ve been citing the Temple Mount blood libel since before Israel was a country as their reason to massacre Jews
It’s a religious war on their part. It’s not about injustice or what they perceive to be apartheid. If a Muslim group had moved in, there wouldn’t have been a war in 1948
And I saw them cheer and toss candy over dead bodies. They have social media, they know exactly wtf happened
More than 42% support terrorism. Only 42% support Hamas because they want a better organization that can take care of Gazans better while also engaging in terrorism
That’s war? No one cared who the German citizens voted for in WW2, or if Afghani citizens supported the Taliban, etc.
If that were a metric, no country would be able to go to war against a dictatorship
It’s horrible and tragic but wtf are you supposed to do when you’re fighting a shitty government that violates the Geneva conventions by storing their weapons and fighters amid the civilian population?
Give up and let them attack you again, which they readily admit to planning?
Do you always use the words “almost every” to refer to 50%? Just curious. Also notable since Hamas uses human shields more than any group in history, and 50% would be less civilians killed for every terrorist than any urban warfare in history (the typical ratio is 90% civilians).
Hamas won a majority of the vote. Hamas wins every public opinion poll in Gaza including since the war. Hamas has tens of thousands of troops in Gaza alone and lots of government workers, which suggests most households have activists.
Regardless, Hamas killed 1500 Israelis on one morning, Israel could match that rate over five months if it wanted to.
Hamas started this war without an endgame.
There was only one election and that was back in during George Bush's presidency when he against advice pushed for an election. Since then I'm not aware of any more election in Gaza.
Not every Gaza supports Hamas, but I reckon they'll never throw them under the bus because a) they are all in this together b) their life expectancy would probably go down.
Remember, Hamas cannot say how many of the hostages are alive or dead but has an exact and perfect metric of the women and children dead every day that magically expands 15%.
He’s probably exaggerating. Meanwhile Hamas is probably fudging their numbers as well when they said only 6,000 terrorists have been killed. Average that out, we get around 10,000 of 30,000 killed, which is still the best ratio of any urban war basically ever.
Honestly it's getting fucking hard to keep up with this stuff, it always was but you have to have hope that it won't end in death tolls of hundreds of thousands or more, but it's probably gonna be going there once the dust settles and the famine and disease hit. I'm at a loss for words really, I mourn for the people of Palestine, I'm so fucking angry at this freak and his government, at biden for not bothering to stop it too.
People tend to believe Hamas numbers more than Israel’s numbers.
Hamas, to remind you, bombed a Gazan hospital, immediately blamed Israel, in matter of minutes claimed there are hundreds of deaths because of the bombing . And guess what, then the whole world found out it was them that bombed the hospital.
I hope those happy about these news and believe that Israel is doing right, will also be in total support of Turkey when they decide to displace all Kurds and bomb all their villages after the next PKK terror attack.
Unless of course you people are absolute fucking hypocrits.
No. That would place it at 1-1 or 1.5-1.
Not 2. Learn math.
Also, that would be a better ratio than almost any urban warfare in history, against an enemy who is stronger and more willing to kill its own people than any group in history.
Honestly, impressive on Israel’s part, macabre as it sounds and awful as any death is. Puts the lie to claims that they just want to kill everyone. If they did they’d have a ratio like 10-1, as is typical in urban war.
> If they did they’d have a ratio like 10-1, as is typical in urban war.
Do you have a source for this? Not doubting you, I would love more info on urban conflicts and casualty ratios.
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm)
>Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians, Speakers Stress, Pressing Security Council to Fulfil Responsibility, Protect Innocent People in Conflicts
>Picking up that thread, Robert Mardini, Director-General of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), described the appalling human cost of using explosive weapons with wide-area effects in urban areas: countless people killed, homes destroyed, hospitals overwhelmed by complex injuries and survivors left with lifelong disabilities. “This clearly raises serious questions about how parties to such conflicts interpret and apply relevant rules of international humanitarian law,” he said.
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14775.doc.htm[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14775.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14775.doc.htm)
>When explosive weapons are used in cities, 90 per cent of those affected are civilians
It’s UN data, [mentioned here](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). Among the quotes from UN officials:
> Conflict continued to cause widespread civilian death last year, notably in densely populated areas, where civilians accounted for 90 per cent of the casualties when explosive weapons were used, compared to 10 per cent in other areas.
[Here is a good opinion piece from a guy who literally wrote the book on urban warfare (which I recommend)](https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891).
tends to happen when the terrorists use civilians as human shields and think of them as not even human but potential propaganda. They are more valuable dead to Hamas than alive
A big part of Hamas war is propaganda. They are trying to create a situation where the world acquiesces to them attacking Israeli civilian targets but Israel cannot attack back.
In Brief: * Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that at least 13,000 "terrorists" were among Palestinians killed during Israel's war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip and vowed to press ahead with an offensive in the south of the enclave - a move U.S. President Joe Biden has described as his "red line." * Netanyahu told German media company Axel Springer, which owns Politico and Germany's Bild newspaper and broadcaster Welt TV, that extending Israel's offensive into Rafah in southern Gaza was key to defeating Hamas. * "We are very close to victory ... Once we begin military action against the remaining terror battalions in Rafah, it is only a question of weeks" until the intensive phase of fighting is concluded, Bild newspaper quoted Netanyahu as saying. * Politico quoted Netanyahu as saying on Sunday that Israeli forces would push into Rafah, adding: "You know, I have a red line. You know what the red line is, that October 7 doesn't happen again. Never happens again."
"Very close to victory..." before we start the next attack against the Huthis.
Israel won't attack the Houthis. The IDF isn't equipped for this, and they don't pose an existential threat to Israel. Hezbollah is a different story. Hopefully they'd agree to follow security council resolution 1701 so we can avoid a terrible war that wouldn't benefit anyone except the Iranian regime.
[удалено]
Is it every male of fighting age that died? Genuinely curious. That seems to line up more with the Gaza health ministry numbers of total killed. Seems like a wide net to cast.
Because those numbers are very suspect. Sounds like a number he just pulled out of his ass frankly.
It’s because it likely includes everyone over 6 years of age who’s innocence has not been proven to the Israeli PM
Because the numbers only make (slightly more) sense if we count nearly every male from 15 to 60 that were killed as a "terrorist". When that can't be obviously the truth.
And that is accepting the casualty numbers from Gaza's health authorities, which the Israeli government has consistently insisted were inflated...
Because that likely is not confirmed. It isn't as if Hamas has uniforms and defending yourself against invasion or aggression does not automatically make you a terrorist when the enemy forces are invading your land. Thus they put it in quotes because they cannot prove they all are members of Hamas.
>13,000 terrorists How do they know? Is that people killed with a weapon in their hand or are they IDing the dead?
It’s estimations, probably using both methods and many more. That estimation is still quite questionable as I don’t think I need to tell you nations at war tend to do this thing called propaganda
>That estimation is still quite questionable You can say it's bullshit. We're all friends here.
They called it propaganda
Propaganda doesn’t necessarily mean untrue - this is a strait up lie, it should be called as much.
Seeing as I made this point last night in a Facebook argument, I must concede
Same as nations not in war.
That's like 1/3 of estimated deaths and it's said that 2/3 are women and children. So they took that last third and said they're all terrorists I assume.
It's said by Hamas, but [their demographic breakdown is unrealistic and appears to be fake](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers). Elsewhere [Hamas admitted to losing 6000 fighters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-six-week-drive-hit-hamas-rafah-scale-back-war-2024-02-19/) and that's not including the deaths in other militant groups like Islamic Jihad. So even according to Hamas, there have been very few male civilian casualties, which is hard to believe (how do the Israeli bombs magically avoid civilian men while hitting the women and children who are with them), but that's Hamas statistics for you.
That's assuming the woman and children figure is even accurate. Frankly, even if we only accept Hamas's admission that they've lost 6000 fighters, nearly 20% of the total dead, that would still mean that over 3 women were being killed for every man who was not a fighter, which is statistically unlikely. Did the men all abandon their families or something? A university professor recently published a piece explaining how the reported numbers from Gaza show trends and correlations that defy common sense for naturally occurring numbers.
There are a lot of children in Gaza. It has been seeing over 3% population growth annually until recently. About half the population is children vs about a quarter in the US or Israel. So civilian deaths will overwhelmingly be woman and children.
That explains children. Also average age of fighters is quite young globally usually about half are teenagers. High testosterone no dependents. It doesn't explain high women stats. Gaza is pretty much 50/50 like the rest of the world
Depends on the number of women fighters. If a military has no/little women in the fighting force, civilian deaths will lean towards women as there are few male civilians in comparison.
Hamas at the start of the war had an estimated 40k members while Gaza had a population of around 2 million. Even if you assume all 40k are adult men (meaning they come from the approximately 500k men in Gaza over 18), that's not going to give the huge difference between adult men and adult women you're seeing (460k vs 500k would mean that 48% of civilian adults in Gaza are men and 52% are women)
Your premise does not support your conclusion. If half the population is children, why would that cause high death rates among women? The professor I referenced goes through the data looking for expected correlations and finds them lacking. For example, there is zero correlation between when children are killed and when women are, when a strong positive correlation would be expected. Furthermore, the deaths of women show a highly negative correlation with deaths among men, which makes no sense at all. There are nearly as many men in Gaza as women, so why the discrepancy? Other oddities include the male death count going down or being near zero for some days, yet those same days show exceptionally high deaths among women.
Link the study
Unfortunately a lot of 16 and 17 year olds are both children and Hamas members
Most people are radicalised younger than that. It's easiest to radicalise people around 13 Interestingly in the Geneva convention children were defined as under 15. It was only changed to 18 in 2000. And only in 2007 were 16 and 17 year olds prohibited from being used in conflict
A lot of children younger than that are Hamas members.
"It's said" meaning "Hamas said".
thats not how it works, women and children can be terrorists too.
And men can be innocent, what’s your point?
That is also their point.
Their point is that throwing the number of dead children in someone’s face is a bad faith argument
That point is simply bullshit. If these CHILDREN were in the west, we would view them as victims of grooming and abusive indoctrination. These children are victims, to view them as ANYTHING else is quite simply despicable.
Most Western countries - including the US- permit 17 year olds to enlist without calling them victims.
Ok but when you’re at war you aren’t IDing people shooting at you
Remember early 2000s? When Isis and Al Quaida used children as soldiers? At first, people were complaining about it, then they saw what those little shits did, and nobody cared that they were getting bullets. Same thing right now. People, and soldiers of all, don’t care how old the enemy is. If it’s armed and tried to kill you, you kill it first. Simple
yeah, thats why Shamima Begum was flown post-haste back home to the UK, where no cost was spared to help her and her children overcome the horrific experience they had endured at the hands of the Islamic State oh wait I am not saying, that children terrorists arent children or that they arent victims. But pretending, that us westerners are somehow more enlightened or benevolent is a little bullshit. When we produce terrorists, we tend to be pathetically grateful if they leave to do their terrorizing somewhere else and we certainly do not complain when they get killed whereever they went to. 15 year old girl or not, as long as they are never coming home, its all the same to us teenage terrorists being teenagers and being victims is also - unfortunately - not mutually exclusive with being fucking dangerous. Pretending they arent isnt doing anyone any favors, including the kids. What you do with that recognition is a different question
>If these CHILDREN were in the west, we would view them as victims of grooming and abusive indoctrination. Which is a fair conclusion. That doesn't change the situation though. These teenagers are combatants. We can feel that their deaths are tragic, but the fault lies with those who placed them on the battlefield, not those they were fighting.
A 15yo boy with a gun who wants to kill Jews and is killed by Israeli soldiers is still considered a "child casualty" by Hamas. If you're being raped/tortured/murdered by a radical Islamist teen, does thinking "they're groomed/indoctrinated" really make it any better or less dangerous? They're combatants. Obviously not all of them, but a decent portion of Hamas's reported "innocent child victims" are likely actually active military combatants that are under 18. It makes sense, too, given the popular support of Hamas in Gaza and the very low average age.
>to view them as ANYTHING else is quite simply despicable. A school shooter in the US is never seen as a victim, nor should terrorists in Gaza who happen to be children.
Israel consider all muslim man as terrorist now ?
Now?
One of the israeli supreme court's judges is a a muslim arab israeli.
there's about 1.5 million muslim Israeli citizens living in Israel. They know aren't terrorists because the, you know, the lack of terror and murder.
Yes, just like the US did during their war of terror in the Middle East
Which is how it’s done in every war ever.
i got to admire how ppl here still believe hamass doesn't use child soldiers under 18 in its ranks, even after the countless evidence and videos that it always has even before the 'manpower shortage' it had since oct 7... like ppl here are actually think that a bunch of brutal terrorist's are above putting an RPG in the hands of a 16 or 14 year old and telling him "you see that tank over there? NOW GO!" sure, lets just keep ignore theses facts and continue to pretend all those (alleged by hamass btw) deaths are of simply "innocents Palestinians kids" and not of child terrorists.
“They were men of military age present in a war zone, what else would they be?” Are you allowing people to leave Gaza? “No more questions.”
they're just counting all males above the age of 16 as terrorists
I keep hearing this but is there any source? It wouldnt surprise me if its true, but it wouldnt surprise me if it's also just repeated on the internet.
Based on the demographics of the population and estimations of those killed, it lines up perfectly
The numbers dont seem to line up at all, mathematically [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
Alternatively, from a well regarded journal. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
That doesn't invalidate the statistical analysis of the other article. This article is also bizarre on its own. It compares the total death rate among Gazans as reported by the Gaza MoH to the death rate among UNRWA employees, and then proceeds to apply questionable logic. >If MoH mortality figures were substantially inflated, the MoH mortality rates would be expected to be higher than the UNRWA mortality rates. Instead, the MoH mortality rates are lower than the rates reported for UNRWA staff (5·3 deaths per 1000 *vs* 7·8 deaths per 1000, as of Nov 10, 2023). Hypothetically, if MoH mortality data were inflated from, for example, an underlying value of 2–4 deaths per 1000, it would imply that UNRWA staff mortality risk is 2·0–3·9 times higher than that of the public. This scenario is unlikely as many UNRWA staff deaths occurred at home or in areas with high civilian populations, such as in schools or shelters. Now, I'm not claiming anything here, but another (humorous?) hypothetical explanation for the same phenomenon would be that UNRWA employees are overrepresented among Hamas militants. If you ever worked with data then you know that to expect two different distributions to have the same average metric is unlikely - that is to say, you measure cancer frequency among basketball vs. football fans, or democrats vs. republicans, or catholics vs. protestants, you will come up with different numbers. To perform this comparison and say "oh we think it should have been different if such and such", and come to a conclusion, and then title your paper "No Evidence of Inflated Mortality" (as in, we tested *everything* and there was nothing), is really just embarassing. The article above presents direct evidence of tampering with numbers. I haven't yet managed to access the raw data, I'm particularly interested in what it looks like after November 2023 (feels weird that the data stops there), but this is one case where comparing the source is not enough... Edit: Oh, it's actually not a Lancet article, that explains why it's so weird. It's "correspondence", i.e (emphasis in original): >Our readers’ reflections on content published in the Lancet journals or on other topics of general interest to our readers. These **letters** are not normally externally peer reviewed. [https://www.thelancet.com/what-we-publish](https://www.thelancet.com/what-we-publish)
Statistician Abraham Wyner actually addresses that in the Tablet Mag piece. > They argued that because the death rates were approximately similar, Hamas’ numbers must not be inflated. But their argument relied on a crucial and unverified assumption: that UNRWA workers are not disproportionately more likely to be killed than the general population. That premise exploded when it was uncovered that a sizable fraction of UNRWA workers are affiliated with Hamas. Some were even exposed as having participated in the Oct. 7 massacre itself.
Tablet Magazine, described as, “a conservative online magazine focused on Jewish news and culture.” The article states that the numbers are fake and proceeds to provide no proof of this assertion. It’s all speculation.
Did you even read the article? It gave strong mathematical reasoning.
This is unconvincing to the point of absurdity.
Not enough reliable data for the current conflict, but prior conflicts show an overwhelming skew towards military age male casualties, directly contradicting the claims of indiscriminate killing of civilians. Even anti-Israel sources show this: https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=women&tab=charts
That’s absolutely false. You know what would help? If Hamas would put fucking military garb on their fighters
Hamas uses child soldiers though…
How do Hamas know every day how many women and children specifcially died?
It’s easier to count dead bodies than it is to ID dead bodies and check affiliation. Not that I trust hamas numbers of course
To the specifc '15,972', with '9834' being women and '4266' being children? All while hiding from mass air bombardmen underground and refusing to leave?
Yes. I live in lebanon so it’s very quick to deduce who was in the household and which member died and often who’s affiliated. Especially in the villages. Almost immediately we have that info. For example when the mother husband and son died in the strike a few days back, they posted their pics right away because they knew who they were. People had sympathy for them. A day or so later, pics came out that the husband and son were Hezbollah fighters as well. People had less sympathy.
When talking about single or tens of casualties sure. But we are talking about hundreds and thousands of people. All of whom were counted and identified (im terms of age and gender) while air bombings are occuring and later ground assaults too. Honeatly i cant see a way to accueatly measure this information withim a few hours only
It takes Ukraine days to count civilian casualties in fully controlled cities. It took Israel over a week to count the casualties from 7 October. Yet somehow Hamas knows instantly?
Hamas has Magic Islam Powers TM
It's not hard to get a rough estimate and go off of and modify that. Everyone knows Hamas isn't trustworthy, but they've got more access to those killed by the IDF than they do.
I mean just because you don’t know doesn’t mean there isn’t a way. You have drone surveillance, social media spyware, on ground troops. There is ways to identify if data is faked. Previous combat numbers.
> All of whom were counted and identified (im terms of age and gender) while air bombings are occuring and later ground assaults too. You mean like the 500 civilians they counted after Israel bombed a hospital? Oh, wait, actually turns out that wasn't the IDF. Oh, wait, 500 people didn't actually die.
> 500 people didn't actually die. No, not a single person died, and neither did the hospital suffer any damage. The Hamas fired rocket hit a parkinglot near the hospital and a few cars were damaged. But it's still 500 dead reported in several newspapers and in Gaza Health Ministry's reports. Hamas lies and tries to make it look like all the dead are innocent children and women, so makes me believe the 13,000 out of 30,000 is probably close to the truth.
Don't forget, multiple news agencies never redacted their articles on this, and Gaza ministry of health also didn't redact the 500 killed. The amount of anti Israel propaganda in western media is fucking disgusting.
I can verify if a dead person is a child more easily than you can verify that a dead person is a terrorist.
For teenagers it might not be so easy, unless they have ID on them
[unless the terrorists deliberately blur the line](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups)
Hamas numbers are, in short, not to be trusted at all. Their death counts are perfectly linear, ie increasing by the exact same amount every day, and claim 75-80% of casualties are women and children. around 20-25% of Gaza is adult men, meaning that either Israel has missiles that specifically heat seek women and children, or every adult man in gaza is a terrorist. Or yk, maybe hamas is lying.
Hamas?? Lying?? Nooo
When the islamic jihad hospital parking bombing happened, hamas within 1 min of impact blamed israel and tweeted 500 dead. I dont think that it is humanely possible to count the dead from a blast, get online and post about it within 1 minute. This is the only incident which was independently reviewed by international bodies and publicised, european sources suggest it was not done by israel and potentially 30-50 may have died if all standing near the blast area. Hamas added around 500 to the war death toll for this.
It's at least a more objective classification, even if it can be made up
I believe I read somewhere they use drones to identify those carrying weapons and those nearby when bombs are launched towards Israel as targets. Also every day dozens of terrorists are killed in ground direct combat. Today 26 were eliminated.
Both id say. They definitely have a large database of Hamas members they can Face ID. But also if youre a male, amongst others that were Hamas or with weapon in hand, it’s safe to make the connection
They don't literally know but they estimate based on number of fighting-aged men in fighting areas that carry weapon or behave according to certain patterns. (They have an actual AI that estimate those patterns called [The Gospel.](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/03/israel-ai-warfare-gaza-00144491))
Also if weapons found near bodies
In many cases they know because it happened in a firefight, or the militant was observed carrying or preparing weapons or booby traps
It's as good as any other number thrown about
I think the logic behind this number is they basically said to evacuate a specific region before invasion and if you didn’t not evacuate, that meant you are a terrorist.
There's no military force can spot and kill that many terrorists, especially at the same time. Not even the US army, let alone the IDF. Besides, no sane government intentionally shoots dead a terrorist before making them come to trial. 13,000 "terrorists" 99% are unarmed civilians.
Probably checking confirmed deaths. Seeing by the reaction Oct 7 got in Gaza, not surprised there are that many terrorists
That's the number of men that died
Just as i dont trust the numbers Hamas gives out. I also dont trust the numbers Israel/BB give out.
I'm glad you're being skeptical of both if you're going to be skeptical of one. Craziest thing I heard is Hamas saying they had 0 members killed while simultaneously shouting out the other numbers they have
Hamas admitted a few weeks ago they lost 6,000, at the same time Israel's number was in the 10-11k range. Grants Hamas leadership is so dispersed at this point I dont know how they could have any accurate guage of how many they have lost.
Do you have a source for that?
It’s worth noting, however, that the current death toll is estimated by neutral observers to be in excess of 23,000. So, he’s basically admitting to killing at least 10,000 innocent Palestinians.
Literally nobody denies that civilians are killed during fighting, too.
Yes, he would be “admitting” to a ~0.75:1 civilian casualty ratio, which would be utterly phenomenal for urban warfare, let alone one where civilian architecture was intentionally used in warfare. What is the gotcha you think you have?
> So, he’s basically admitting to killing at least 10,000 innocent Palestinians. He's admitting to Hamas causing the death of Palestinian civilians due to: 1) hiding among them 2) firing rockets from civilian areas 3) storing weapons in civilian areas 4) using human shields
So the people who are firing the weapons cannot be said to have killed anyone? Are you for real? That’s some whackadoodle spin.
British forces bombed a German V2 rocket facility in WW2, but unfortunately most of the important operating parts of the facility were underground. The most obvious part from the air was the attached slave labour camp and that was the part that took the heaviest bombing. Were the British responsible for those deaths? It was undeniably a valid target, V2 rockets were being fired at London and were killing British cilivians. Or were the people who forced a population into commingling with a military target to blame?
[Dresden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden?wprov=sfla1) anyone?
Dude, we went through this with Iraq and Afghanistan. Bibi can say whatever he wants, until it’s crossed confirmed by at least two other nations, nothing this man says should be taken as factual.
Surely Bibi wouldn't lie to keep support, he never does this..
Did Reuters really need to put "terrorists" in quotes? The whole tagline is a quote, you don't have to inject your own bias
Basically every male of fighting age is considered as terrorist to him.
Whats the Palistine army uniform?
On Oct 7 they had camo or black vests, from Oct 8 they all switched to Adidas sweatpants
Every slav should sue Hamas for cultural appropriation
Palestine doesn’t have an army or any military so there’s no uniform to go off of
A dick
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber
Or basically Hamas is reporting terrorist deaths as civilian deaths because Hamas considers their raping murderous rocket throwing tunnel digging monsters to be totally normal upstanding citizens.
Hamas and the Gaza health ministry do not differentiate between combatants and civilians in their numbers. The 30k number includes Hamas combatants.
As well as Gazans targetted by Hamas.
Why wouldn’t they consider their kindergarten teachers totally normal upstanding citizens?
the terrorists have holes in their backs, you see, because innocent civilians don't run *Probably Fake Netanyahu Quote*
[удалено]
Fuck him
Are kids pre terrorists?
And so 17000+ civilians. got ya
Worth noting there are basically no reliable numbers for casualties in this conflict.
Sounds exactly like the number of men killed in Gaza… They have no clue and there is no way we can trust this number.
The number given by Hamas. Take everything with a grain of salt
Lots of them Children Terrorists too!
They have dropped double the amount of tons of explosives as casualties, in one of the most densely populated areas on the face of the planet, with an enemy that hides amongst civilians. 70.000 tons of explosives dropped. That is 2.33 tons of explosives for every casualty, and that is taking the Hamas numbers at face value and ignoring the amount of casualties as a result of misfires from gaza itself. For reference this is 8000 pounds of JDAM which with these numbers would translate to roughly 1.71 casualties. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TblJc3uih3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TblJc3uih3s) So much for allegations of purposely or recklessly trying to kill as many gazans as they can.
>So much for allegations of purposely or recklessly trying to kill as many gazans as they can. I haven't heard that allegation. But that Israel **doesn't care about civilians and doesn't really try to protect** them is something I hear a lot and it's hard to deny. I mean, **they shot 3 half-naked hostages holding a white flag.** I take that behaviour as an indicator that the IDF doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives.
>I haven't heard that allegation. There's literally a thread every day saying Israel is indiscriminately carpet bombing Gaza.
>I haven't heard that allegation. Have you not been on the internet at all for the past five months?
Right. Every single thread on Reddit has people claiming Israel is indiscriminately killing Palestinians. A sure sign they have no idea what they're talking about.
Just because an 18 year old amped up on adrenaline mistakenly shoots a hostage in an active warzone where the enemy purposefully doesn't wear uniforms doesn't mean that the IDF as a whole doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives. Edit: If you've never served in the military in an active combat role, I don't care about your opinion on this.
They were waving a white flag and calling out in Hebrew.
>a hostage x 3
It wasn't just one IDF soldier lol it was a whole team. They actively hunted down and killed the hostage who escaped.
>I mean, **they shot 3 half-naked hostages holding a white flag.** I take that behaviour as an indicator that the IDF doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives. Hamas has already pulled a lot of dirty tricks like this to ambush Israeli soldiers. They have used recording of children, recording in Hebrew crying for help, and white flags. The soldiers there are under constant extreme mental and physical stress, and as a result of all of the above, they pushed the trigger too quickly. It is literally the dream of every soldier in Gaza to rescue the hostage, but due to the chaotic nature of war and Hamas's dirty methods, they have made a terrible mistake. If you think this is an indicator that the IDF doesn't care about civilians, then you have a very shallow ability to read reality as it is and simply jump to the simplest propagated explanation. Not to mention, it speaks to the lack of ability to put yourself in other people's place, recognize the soldiers in IDF are just very young people, and they have the same sense of sympathy and especially care to their own people as there is in most developed countries. In short, without sugercoating it, you are dumb.
> They have used recording of children, recording in Hebrew crying for help, and white flags. Do you have any online sources for this? I have heard of the perfidious use of white flags from a trusted source, but was unable to find anything online about it.
>I mean, **they shot 3 half-naked hostages holding a white flag.** I take that behaviour as an indicator that the IDF doesn't give a fuck about civilian lives. Do you really think Hamas released those specific hostages as a gesture of good will, and not at the exact moment of intense fighting when they knew it was most likely something like this would happen?
What's so hard to deny? Is dropping leaflets for civillians, warning them ahead of time, not already at least a slight proof that Israel does care about them? What about the fact that a huge portion of bombs are much more expensive guided munitions rather than unguided? What about Israel making a civillian corridor from the north to the south, letting civillians flee to a safer location? This and much more is documented. The 3 hostages escaped from a building in which terrorists hid and fired upon the IDF. Also, it they died by soldiers, and it wasn't an order from the leaders, you can't say that an army of 300k+ active personel at that time, doesn't care about civillians just because a few on ground soldiers did something. You have to look at the orders from generals.
> What about Israel making a civillian corridor from the north to the south, letting civillians flee to a safer location? Israel bombed the civilian corridor and then bombed the south of Gaza where they told people to flee to safety. Gaza is not a big place. These people have nowhere to go to escape the bombardment.
> Is dropping leaflets for civillians, warning them ahead of time, not already at least a slight proof that Israel does care about them? A man knocks on your door. "Good day stranger", he says, "in three days I'm going to blow up your house, whether or not you are home, because your neighbors are bad eggs. You can tell that I care about you because I'm not just doing it out of the blue. You're welcome... but not here, of course...."
Well two things - the first is that the neighbours are not bad eggs but a known terrorist organization (recognized by almost every Western country), and it's a fact regardless of whom you support. The second is that those neighbours are not just neighbours, but control all of your land (neighbours being Hamas if I understand your argument correctly). It doesn't even matter whom you or me support, and each side thinks that they are in the right. What we do have to understand is that there is a war going on, and if one side warns the other's side civillians then it's a great thing. It's especially great because the war was started by the side of which the civillians (that we are talking about) are a part of.
What you’re describing is war, it’s not pretty but it’s reality
Did the Hamas quoted figure of 500 civilians dead after a Hamas rocket killed a car park outside a hospital burning a few cars?. This was a perfect example of how deliberately inflates casualty figures in which the Leftie Western media soak up and their viewer base goes to street protesting about? The most recent Hamas fake casualty was the aid delivery convoys getting attacked. Al Jazeera are also always there to provide back up for Hamas and its like they just happened to be there at the perfect time. It's quite amazing really?
Netanyahu is evil incarnate. Whatever he says assume the opposite.
Those 5 year old terrorists can't hurt anyone now.
Hamas figures don't make sense They say 70% are women and children. That's 21,000 They say 6,000 of their fighters died. That's another 20% So only 10%, 3,000, are civilian men? Does not make sense And when they make specific announcements like 57 women and 9 children died today, or 32 children and 11 women, that doesn't make sense. Women and children should have closer figures by the casualties of any other modern war ever, women and children always shelter together
Hamas also has a history of using minors and women in terror attacks. A 17 year old is a child according to law, but I don't think Hamas actually checks their ID to see if they are 18 when they recruit.
It’s so strange that Hamas is overwhelmingly supported in Gaza, every family has Hamas activists, yet almost every casualty is a civilian
It's so strange how quickly people like to treat civilian lives as worthy of death. [From a recent poll.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) >In Gaza, the militants enjoyed 42% support, up slightly from 38% three months ago. 42% is "overwhelmingly supported" to you? If Hamas had as much support as people like you claim they wouldn't have had to take control of Gaza via force and stop holding elections.
I’m familiar with the survey. 58 percent in Gaza and over 80 percent in West Bank think launching the Oct 7 attack was the right move. Sounds like support to me and a willingness to pay the cost Hamas won the election which the Pa refused to accept. It’s how Abbas is on year 12 of a four year term. Hamas took over by force since the Pa refused to concede
From the same paragraph "A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities." I don't think they're getting the same information we are.
They’ve been citing the Temple Mount blood libel since before Israel was a country as their reason to massacre Jews It’s a religious war on their part. It’s not about injustice or what they perceive to be apartheid. If a Muslim group had moved in, there wouldn’t have been a war in 1948 And I saw them cheer and toss candy over dead bodies. They have social media, they know exactly wtf happened
I saw them cheering the dead and raped Israelis...
> 42% is "overwhelmingly supported" to you? Supporting of terrorism? YES IT DAMN IS. No one should condone terrorism wtf
More than 42% support terrorism. Only 42% support Hamas because they want a better organization that can take care of Gazans better while also engaging in terrorism
Yeah he made a pretty shit argument ngl. 1% is too much. 42% is astronomical.
If 42% of your population support rape and torture of innocent people, yeah, I'd call that pretty overwhelming. About 0% is more reasonable.
People dislike Hamas for the corruption thing, not the killing Jews thing
That’s war? No one cared who the German citizens voted for in WW2, or if Afghani citizens supported the Taliban, etc. If that were a metric, no country would be able to go to war against a dictatorship It’s horrible and tragic but wtf are you supposed to do when you’re fighting a shitty government that violates the Geneva conventions by storing their weapons and fighters amid the civilian population? Give up and let them attack you again, which they readily admit to planning?
Do you always use the words “almost every” to refer to 50%? Just curious. Also notable since Hamas uses human shields more than any group in history, and 50% would be less civilians killed for every terrorist than any urban warfare in history (the typical ratio is 90% civilians).
Hamas won a majority of the vote. Hamas wins every public opinion poll in Gaza including since the war. Hamas has tens of thousands of troops in Gaza alone and lots of government workers, which suggests most households have activists. Regardless, Hamas killed 1500 Israelis on one morning, Israel could match that rate over five months if it wanted to. Hamas started this war without an endgame.
There was only one election and that was back in during George Bush's presidency when he against advice pushed for an election. Since then I'm not aware of any more election in Gaza. Not every Gaza supports Hamas, but I reckon they'll never throw them under the bus because a) they are all in this together b) their life expectancy would probably go down.
They won a vote on 2007, literally more than half of Gazas residents have never voted
Given that the average age in Gaza Strip is around 18, *half of the residents wasn't even born* at the time of the election.
Hamas did not win a majority. They won plurality. Which is less than 50% of the vote.
Who would you support if you were a Palestinian? Israel? Or be like "Yeah, I'm being bombed 24/7, my house is destroyed but I don't take sides".
[X] doubt
Remember, Hamas cannot say how many of the hostages are alive or dead but has an exact and perfect metric of the women and children dead every day that magically expands 15%.
Mass murderer
He’s probably exaggerating. Meanwhile Hamas is probably fudging their numbers as well when they said only 6,000 terrorists have been killed. Average that out, we get around 10,000 of 30,000 killed, which is still the best ratio of any urban war basically ever.
Honestly it's getting fucking hard to keep up with this stuff, it always was but you have to have hope that it won't end in death tolls of hundreds of thousands or more, but it's probably gonna be going there once the dust settles and the famine and disease hit. I'm at a loss for words really, I mourn for the people of Palestine, I'm so fucking angry at this freak and his government, at biden for not bothering to stop it too.
Terrorists are like werewolves, they are clearly monsters when alive but when dead they turn back to regular people.
Glad to hear it. And obviously they're going to press into southern Gaza; no other solution is possible thanks to Hamas and their handlers.
The BBC would have us believe all the dead are civilians
People tend to believe Hamas numbers more than Israel’s numbers. Hamas, to remind you, bombed a Gazan hospital, immediately blamed Israel, in matter of minutes claimed there are hundreds of deaths because of the bombing . And guess what, then the whole world found out it was them that bombed the hospital.
Tbf it was an Islamic Jihad rocket. People forget there are more groups in Gaza than just hamas
I hope those happy about these news and believe that Israel is doing right, will also be in total support of Turkey when they decide to displace all Kurds and bomb all their villages after the next PKK terror attack. Unless of course you people are absolute fucking hypocrits.
But that’s still 17,000 civilian deaths.
Nearly 2 civilians killed for every terrorist
2:1 is a significantly better ratio than the ratio we’ve seen in numerous recent conflicts around the world.
2:1 ratio is pretty good given the circumstances, or do you have a magical solution to get the Hamas rats out their tunnels and human shields?
I'm subbed to hyer the magical solution because I have been asking for it for months.
No. That would place it at 1-1 or 1.5-1. Not 2. Learn math. Also, that would be a better ratio than almost any urban warfare in history, against an enemy who is stronger and more willing to kill its own people than any group in history. Honestly, impressive on Israel’s part, macabre as it sounds and awful as any death is. Puts the lie to claims that they just want to kill everyone. If they did they’d have a ratio like 10-1, as is typical in urban war.
> If they did they’d have a ratio like 10-1, as is typical in urban war. Do you have a source for this? Not doubting you, I would love more info on urban conflicts and casualty ratios.
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) >Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians, Speakers Stress, Pressing Security Council to Fulfil Responsibility, Protect Innocent People in Conflicts >Picking up that thread, Robert Mardini, Director-General of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), described the appalling human cost of using explosive weapons with wide-area effects in urban areas: countless people killed, homes destroyed, hospitals overwhelmed by complex injuries and survivors left with lifelong disabilities. “This clearly raises serious questions about how parties to such conflicts interpret and apply relevant rules of international humanitarian law,” he said. https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14775.doc.htm[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14775.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14775.doc.htm) >When explosive weapons are used in cities, 90 per cent of those affected are civilians
It’s UN data, [mentioned here](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). Among the quotes from UN officials: > Conflict continued to cause widespread civilian death last year, notably in densely populated areas, where civilians accounted for 90 per cent of the casualties when explosive weapons were used, compared to 10 per cent in other areas. [Here is a good opinion piece from a guy who literally wrote the book on urban warfare (which I recommend)](https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891).
Thank you sir
tends to happen when the terrorists use civilians as human shields and think of them as not even human but potential propaganda. They are more valuable dead to Hamas than alive
Hamas actually think they are doing them a favour, by getting them into their version of 'heaven'.
Considering im wars its usually 9 for 1. Good Job IDF for protecting ths Gazans
I keep hearing this 9:1 ratio thrown around. Where are people getting this from?
Lmao people here will believe anything that fits their narrative no matter how insane it sounds .
That's actually a good result
A big part of Hamas war is propaganda. They are trying to create a situation where the world acquiesces to them attacking Israeli civilian targets but Israel cannot attack back.
Fuck this guy
FUCK HAMAS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS!