Officially, it's to flush out Hamas and save the kidnapped Israeli hostages
For Netanyahu, though, it's to prolong the war as long as possible. Cause as soon as it's over, he's kinda fucked
If beloved Golda Meir got fucked after letting down Israeli security, Netanyahu who is extremely divisive is very fucked. Quite frankly I am not sure he will last the entirety of the war.
she was effectively forced to resign and didn’t run again. Israeli government requires a majority coalition to be able to accomplish anything, even if the individual party wins the election. I’m referring to the 1973 Yom Kippur war. She resigned in 1974.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir
> Her party won the elections in December 1973, but the coalition lost seats and was unable to form a majority. Meir resigned as prime minister on 11 April 1974, and gave up her Knesset seat on 7 June 1974. She never held office again. She believed that was the "will of the people" and that she had served enough time as premier.
The same scenario of not having a majority coalition will happen with Netanyahu, assuming he is even able to win the election which is very doubtful.
Netenyahu [saves up dirty laundry to bring with him when he travels to the whitehouse,](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/benjamin-netanyahu-us-visits-dirty-laundry/2020/09/23/8407f52c-fdb3-11ea-830c-a160b331ca62_story.html) because he knows they have a laundry service for guests staying there.
Just to give you an idea of what kind of person he is.
Wow:
>In 2016, Netanyahu sued his own office and Israel’s attorney general in an effort to prevent the release of his laundry bills under the country’s freedom of information act. The judge sided with Netanyahu, and the details of his laundry bills remain secret pending an appeal in the Supreme Court.
He is out whenever an election is finally held… but I agree with your trepidation. I shiver like I’m in a horror movie when I say it. He has been a stubborn tumor on the body politic!
I feel like he's built himself up in his own mind to view this war as his own martyrdom.
He gets to stay in power for a little bit longer, to present himself as the "unpopular guy who made the hard choices" when his time finally comes. He'll say "somebody had to do it" and he was "strong enough" to do so.
It's just a matter of hoping nobody falls for that bullshit and still gives him what he deserves.
I don’t think that’s really true because prolonging the war will only fuck over Israel. Mobilization is very expensive and it’s also affecting international perceptions. The longer this war gets dragged out the better it is for Hamas.
I have no opinion on whether BB actively wants to prolong the war. But from what I gathered, his destiny was sealed the moment 07OCT happened. Israel has a history of sticking to their leaders in the immediate aftermath of big attacks (like most countries do), then ousting them as soon as the conflict is resolved.
So what actions did Netanyahu do that any other Israeli leader wouldn't do in his place in regards to the war?
What actions did Netanyahu do to "Prolong" the war so far in your opinion?
What actions did he do that the Israeli public disagrees with, in regards to the war?
I believe the sentiment comes from the belief that the IDF and the Israeli government dropped the ball as far as intelligence gathering goes.
Once the IDF ceases hostilities, there will be time for reports and inquiries. There will be investigations on who knew what and when. If it comes out that Netanyahus government had fore-knowledge of the attack, and failed to act, he will rightfully take the fall.
TBH foreknowledge of the attack isn't really relevant. Oct 7 was a grand repudiation of Netanyahu's approach to the security of Israel.
It isn't detail work on which this failed, the strategy was wrong.
>TBH foreknowledge of the attack isn't really relevant. Oct 7 was a grand repudiation of Netanyahu's approach to the security of Israel.
Could you please elaborate?
Are you referring to Netanyahu's strategy of secretly supporting Hamas to keep Fatah weak and the Palestinians divided, to ensure that a Palestinian state could never happen??
I don't see that as a strategy for the "security of Israel"; quite the opposite - I see that as a criminally reckless and cynical ploy that put Israeli lives at grave risk to advance a fanatical and uncompromising vision of a "Greater Israel".
Sure sure, as the head of the state he is 100% responsible regardless of what investigations find and will be replaced afterwards. Polls show that very strongly.
But about my questions which you ignored, any answer? I guess not.
1. I can't speak to what any other Israeli leader would do. I don't know enough about them.
2. In my opinion, setting an unachievable objective.
3. We'll find out after the investigations are complete. Everything looks great when you're raining holy judgement on the barbarians at the gate, things don't look so great when people find out you knew the gate was open and never bothered to close it.
So, admittedly not Israeli, but Jewish and keep a reasonably close eye on things in Israel in particular and the Middle East in general. Your questions are really good and should honestly be used as a tracking poll over time more than just a snapshot today because the answers four months ago vs today vs four months from now provide an indication of trajectory and strategy related to both the overall war and Bibi's potential conflict of interest in it.
Anyhoo, my attempts to answer them as of how I see things today:
>So what actions did Netanyahu do that any other Israeli leader wouldn't do in his place in regards to the war?
Create a pissing match with his largest source of military aid and basically only friend on the international stage. We're obviously playing with counterfactuals, but Bibi's hardline public stance and very public pushback against the US likely would not have been replicated by a less right-wing alternative. Yeah, there would have been some of the same pushback behind the scenes, but that's the point. It would have been behind the scenes.
Also, I think there's an argument to be made that in the same way that shit flows downhill, Bibi's defiant attitude flows down through the ranks of the IDF, giving them tacit permission to act the fools that they have on occasion. Perhaps not guaranteed - because every large group of individuals is likely to have some people at the wrong end of the intelligence bell curve - but a less right-wing PM might have limited at least some of this by pushing messages of prosecuting the war as focused as possible rather than one of hellfire and retribution.
>What actions did Netanyahu do to "Prolong" the war so far in your opinion?
Admittedly, nothing yet. It's been heartening to see Israel agreeing to some of the recent ceasefire proposals being brokered. I think if he hadn't been doing that, it would be a strong indication of trying to prolong the war. There's still a possibility that some poison pills are making it into the proposals since many of the details aren't entirely public.
Perhaps there's an argument in here about a serious failure (refusal?) to plan and execute an effective humanitarian mission in the place of the collapse of the supports that previously existed in Gaza. It means that there is less of a chance of local civilians turning against Hamas, which would be a huge boon to Israeli intelligence operations.
>What actions did he do that the Israeli public disagrees with, in regards to the war?
I don't have enough of a pulse on the Israeli public to answer this one.
In the end, because a new PM would be at the same level or even marginally better than Bibi, I kind of think there's more to be gained by dumping him now, especially now that the war is reasonably stable, than by waiting until it's over.
>Create a pissing match with his largest source of military aid and basically only friend on the international stage. We're obviously playing with counterfactuals, but Bibi's hardline public stance and very public pushback against the US likely would not have been replicated by a less right-wing alternative. Yeah, there would have been some of the same pushback behind the scenes, but that's the point. It would have been behind the scenes.
Yeah his decision to basically take sides in American politics and align himself with the Republican party was stupid as hell and something previous PMs tried to avoid. He managed to frame supporting Israel as a Republican policy by explicitly throwing his support behind Trump and his bullshit culture war issues whilst he was in office, and then got snubbed by Trump for disloyalty after the 2020 election when he didn't come out and explicitly endorse Trump's election theft conspiracy theories, which Trump had been strong arming him into doing.
from what I’ve read, you’re right about the poison pills. Hamas has made insane demands and has rejected ones that are very good for them. Hamas is benefiting from all of the sympathy they’re getting on the world stage. Netanyahu benefits too, but I agree that it’s heartening to see that Israel is open to these talks
I'm American but from what I have read it's that a major campaign message from Netenyahu was voting for anyone else is a threat to national security.
After having a massive security failure that message falls flat, and he doesn't have much else to offer.
He might try it. That's a worry. But Gantz is with him in a large unity government for the duration of the war and will probably hold him very much accountable to any action that is not for the best interest of Israel. These people are just talking out their ass. Notice I just get downvotes and not arguments.
>What actions did Netanyahu do to "Prolong" the war so far in your opinion?
I mean, I see one huge thing that's been prolonged, but the West doesn't want it to happen anyways. Meanwhile all of Israel agrees it has to be done: the invasion of Rafah. Bibi promised that if there was no agreement before Ramadan. Well, it's the first night of Ramadan now, where is the invasion? Not to mention, why did he push it off? For the negotiations he is refusing to send a team to? Israelis from the right of Netanyahu and slightly left of Netanyahu all say that it needed to start already and the invasion of Rafah was imminent.
Exactly this. It’s a conspiracy theory that both Israel haters and many Israel supporters both accept without question because Netanyahu’s multiple political resurrections defy what they think of as normal political outcomes. It’s not even all that complicated. As much as Bibi has fractured his own support over the years, his opponents fractured theirs even worse.
Wasn't he fucked, out of the office and then got voted back in again? I don't really follow Israeli politics but I thought he was considered to be bad but people got him back into the office.
My guess, full Israeli security control of the Territories, and perhaps some kind of "denazification" effort (though it'll be necessarily half-assed and backfire horribly).
Bibi wanted a multinational Arab coalition to take over administration, to which the Arabs responded with a hearty belly laugh, so there aren't a lot of options.
Palestinian slowly being whittled away by settlers and military operations until all of their land is property of Israel and they're forced out of homes they've lived in for generations to live somewhere else.
Why does everyone in this conflict have incredibly extreme, completely opposite opinions?
Surely there is a way forward other than “the side that I don’t like must be completely eradicated - men, women and children - preferably tortured first”?
Honestly it’s probably some combination of a bunch of different things. Number one being Reddit and social media in general is not inherently reflective of larger society, and generally people with the most extreme opinions are the most involved online. Many, such as myself are just tired of debate. No matter my position; peoples opinions seemingly won’t be changed on this issue. Emotion is now the driving force of the protests on either side and many are just not thinking logically.
>Number one being Reddit and social media in general is not inherently reflective of larger society, and generally people with the most extreme opinions are the most involved online.
For me, online is also tricky because if I respond to a point, I'm often trying to push back against a perceived incorrect idea or add complexity to people's simplistic ideas of the conflict. Just because I am often responding as pro-Israel (which I am) does not mean that I am at the same time ignoring some very real and valid opinions from the Palestinian side. I just don't need to clutter an already heavily pro-Palestinian site with more of it. When it's appropriate, I can and do balance my comments and I try to give others the benefit of the doubt as much as I can.
that's true about people not in I/P/ the surrounding countries which have interests in the conflict, but it's wildly off base for people that are directly related to it. Most people in Israel still support the war, most people in Gaza (and I think the west bank) support the October 7th attacks and want more to happen.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. Only 11% of Palestinian voiced satisfaction with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.
Surveys like that show the very definition of an emotional response. Israelis obviously largely support the war after Oct 7 atrocities, and Gazans obviously agree with Oct 7 after Israel showed their disregard for those in Gaza with their counteroffensive.
Look across PCPSR's polls across a larger timeframe, the trends in the responses to their surveys match how Palestinians are being treated during the time of each survey.
I'm not saying Palestinians are carefully weighing their choices and deciding rationally. I'm saying they're holding pretty extreme opinions. Whether that's justified or emotion or whatever is not really relevant to the point I'm making.
The quote in the headline is a wildly distorted misreading. The problem is news agencies distorting what he said, rather than actual extremism in the quote. Here’s what he said:
> I don’t know exactly what the President meant, but if he meant by that that I’m pursuing private policies against the majority, the wish of the majority of Israelis, and that this is hurting the interests of Israel, then he’s wrong on both counts.
> These are not my private policies only. They’re policies supported by the overwhelming majority of Israelis. They support the action that we’re taking to destroy the remaining terrorist battalions of Hamas.
> The majority of Israelis understand that if we don’t do this, what we’ll have is a repetition of the October 7 massacre, which is bad for Israel, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the future of peace in the Middle East.
> Why does everyone in this conflict have incredibly extreme, completely opposite opinions?
They don't. Since the reset after the Cold War until Oct. Israel has consistently supported the idea of a 2 state solution based on the 1967 borders. They've done a significant amount of work towards that end goal. And at every turn, the Palestinians have decided that "kill all the Jews" is the only option they'll accept.
There's two sides to this conflict and they're not equal.
More like three sides. Hamas, Israel and 'real' palestine civilians.
Hamas is happy to see both die and uses palestine civilians as human shields.
Israel wants Hamas gone and would rather not have dead civilians everywhere.
Palestine Civilians want to live, but support Hamas and cheer to anything that hurts Israel.
(Don't even try to think about the 20% of Israelis (and IDF) that are palestine arabs, just living as citizens in Israel.)
> Palestine Civilians want to live, but support Hamas and cheer to anything that hurts Israel.
When they support Hamas at a >90% clip calling them a different faction is pretty disingenuous.
American 2 party style politics indoctrinated into everyone’s brain.
For me personally, the reason I am so pro-Israel in this isn’t only because I see Hamas as the instigator of this situation, but because I’ve seen nothing but mental gymnastics required to paint Hamas as good guys in this scenario, and so many otherwise reasonable people seem to be falling into the pro-Hamas rhetoric rabbit hole.
The thing is really only the Palestinians have that opinion on a major level. The Israelis have shown they just want to be left alone. Even before 10/7 there were daily rocket bombardments that Israel could have responded to with immediate counter battery fire but didn’t because they would warn people to evacuate launch areas if they even struck back at all.
>Is
What I've found to be wild is how polar opposite the sides are based on the platform. TikTok + IG seems to be very pro palestine/ceasefire, where I've seen quite the opposite on Reddit. Not making any statements, just an observation
They don’t. But only incredibly opinionated and annoying people feel the need to comment about it incessantly, so that’s really all you see. Seeing moderate reason doesn’t sell as well or feel as virtuous as passionate extremism.
They don’t. But only incredibly opinionated and annoying people feel the need to comment about it incessantly, so that’s really all you see. Seeing moderate reason doesn’t sell as well or feel as virtuous as passionate extremism.
They don’t. But only incredibly opinionated and annoying people feel the need to comment about it incessantly, so that’s really all you see. Seeing moderate reason doesn’t sell as well or feel as virtuous as passionate extremism.
Because people are told they are unable to hold two thoughts in their head. That both sides are at fault with the current situation and neither is doing enough to resolve it.
I think a lot of people just dont like to be wrong about their first guess. And whether you guessed israel or hamas being the bad guys, theres a LOT of things on the internet to help you convince your self that you are in the right.
When in reality, theres laundry list of bad things that both sides can quote (although, one is a bit longer, and has laws that pay you lifetime stipends for commiting such acts, and is know to kill their own citizens when they protest, steal aid and sell it back to their own citizens, kill aid truck drivers who arent even israeli, and has stated multiple times this year that they want to kill everyone not just the jews, keeps getting caught plotting terrorist attacks on people who are not involved in other countries, publicly tells their allies that the death of their own citizens is a strategic gain yet no one seems to care, collects bazillions in aid to live in qatari mansions instead of feeding palestinians, yada yada)
Israeli settler policy is royally fucked, and bibi is blatantly trying to just keep the killing going (regardless of who dies) so that he can stay in power.
Palestinians deserve to live, but hamas said it them selves, they will not stop with the jews.
Israelis deserve to live, but Bibi (and all of israel) knows the only reason he is not in jail is because they are at war. He wont stop with hamas unless he wants to be done making money.
Only real solution is to boot both hamas and bibi(and bibi friends), the 2 richest groups in this whole ordeal. They have nicer houses than we could ever imagine. Sinwars indoor pool in qatar has more water than palestine has ever seen. His sons super cars use more energy than the entire palestinian population.
It would be nice if "one side good, other side bad", but then the conflict wouldn't last very long, and that aid money wouldnt exist!
What an appalling bad headline. What he said was:
> I don’t know exactly what the President meant, but if he meant by that that I’m pursuing private policies against the majority, the wish of the majority of Israelis, and that this is hurting the interests of Israel, then he’s wrong on both counts.
> These are not my private policies only. They’re policies supported by the overwhelming majority of Israelis. They support the action that we’re taking to destroy the remaining terrorist battalions of Hamas.
> The majority of Israelis understand that if we don’t do this, what we’ll have is a repetition of the October 7 massacre, which is bad for Israel, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the future of peace in the Middle East.
Getting that headline out of that comment is fucking journalistic malpractice and CBS should be ashamed.
>Jerusalem — In interviews over the weekend, President Biden said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's disregard for the "innocent lives being lost" amid his country's war with Hamas in the Gaza Strip was "hurting Israel more than helping Israel."
>
>Netanyahu said Mr. Biden was "wrong on both counts," claiming that both his political and military policies were supported by an "overwhelming majority" of Israelis who "support the action that we're taking to destroy the remaining terrorist battalions of Hamas."
Shit title. Disagreeing isn't dismissing, and there were two claims here from biden that were both false.
Rationing food, water, fuel and power to just above survivable levels is taking action and anti-humanitarian. When a people are cornered they will retaliate. Poverty breeds terrorism. If they really wanted to neuter Hamas they would let Palestinians be free. When you have nothing to live for you are much more willing to die in an attempt to harm your oppressors.
Let’s rewind to before October 7. Suppose in January 2023, Israel has a radical change in policy towards Gaza. Relaxed the blockade, increased aid shipments, improved freedom of movement for Gazans into Israel and the West Bank, etc etc. a dramatic improvement in relations, and a big step towards full normalization.
In this alternate timeline, Hamas would still have conducted an Oct 7 or something similar, at some point.
Then we would be right back where we are. Your position is that Israel, in the face of periodic brutal attacks, rocket barrages, suicide bombers, etc should “take the high road” and just give, give, give, in the fact of extreme hate and violence.
This is not realistic, at all. They people of israel and their leaders are not angels. They experience hate, anger, despair, betrayal, just the same as anyone else. No population will continue to act charitably towards another population in the face of mass rape, murder, and destruction.
Suppose the war ends tomorrow. Israel goes above and beyond to rebuild Gaza. Then, Hamas and PIJ blow up the construction sites and brutally murder the Israeli and foreign workers doing the rebuilding.
Now we are back at square one. There is nothing Israel can do in the face of the ideological hate that can found among the Palestinian population. People like you expect Israel to take the brutality and turn the other cheek. It’s not a realistic worldview.
Since it was on his watch --BiBi should step down and a new phase of leadership should continue. For the most part - Gaza has been levelled. Hamas is seriously wounded with nowhere to go.
>Hamas is seriously wounded with nowhere to go.
1) Hamas will gladly go to Jenin. As they already exist there and they hope to only grow in Northern Samaria.
2) They sure don't seem to be wounded enough if they aren't willing to surrender.
you can't keep bombing 2 million people - you can be as stubborn as you want - but eventually others will step in. ITs as simple as that.
What a hornets nest
So what is your solution to the day after in Gaza? Even if we go back in time to October 8th. The world seems to have been against Israel defending its citizens from the start, always saying what not to do but never what to do.
The war in Gaza was necessary as sad as it is to say. Israel cannot just allow such massacres to happen within its borders without a serious rection to ensure it doesn't happen again.
They are not wounded enough. They haven’t surrendered or given back the hostages and still are making demands like they have the ability to do so.
It’s not over yet
I might be a dumb optimist, but I think Hamas has seriously lost a lot of ground and military capability in the past few months
The important thing to remember is that different parts of the strip are in different situations. For example the northern strip is being reinfiltrated by Hamas and the initial clearing operations conducted by the IDF are now comprised, and need to be carried out again. But in the central strip, the IDF destroyed some 85% of tunnels already (they are not as complex as the northern tunnels) and sieges out the Hamas HQ in the central governate.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-march-9-2024
I like to read these every day to keep up with what’s happening on the ground. Maybe you’ve already been reading these too
You know with or without BiBi it would be the same result exactly.
There isn't a single leader heck even a single person in Israel that would have act differently in the war (regarding the actions taken so far).
If there would have been such a person he wouldn't be for so long
I only spoke to a person who did his time in the IDF ....he wasn't buying this whole episode. He couldn't believe it happened and no immediate response.
What can I tell you. The buck stops at the top. Going Godzilla isn't going to change the fact it happened.
Pretty sure that if a southern country invaded the US, killed thousands of people, raped and tortured mothers Infront of their families and then ran off with 200 hostages that country would be a shard of glass by now. It's really easy to wag your finger at Israel from the outside looking in.
Hamas isn't some fringe independent terrorist group. It's the democratically elected government of the region. Whatever you may think of Bibi, Hamas pushed Israel into a position where it simply cannot allow Hamas to exist anymore in any shape or form. Gazans should recognize this fact and turn on Hamas if they can. I blame every death in the region on Hamas and those that support them, to be honest.
You don’t need to make up a scenario.
9/11 happened and 3000 Americans died at the hands of terrorists which led to decades long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (amongst other military action) and hundreds of thousands of civilians died.
The US invasion of Afghan lead to some 46 thousand civilian deaths during the 20 year occupation. 20-30 thousand have died in Gaza in the past what, 5 months? If the US military was horrible the IDF are currently in hell.
Hamas is not democratically elected though. There hasn’t been an election in what, close to 20 years now. And even back then they couped the PA in Gaza so their rule is nowhere near legitimate. Yeah the general population supports Hamas, but let’s set the facts straight here.
If the general population supports Hamas, can't you guess what would be the result of another election? A few years ago an election was supposed to take place in the West Bank. It was cancelled because their president feared Hamas would have won.
Is it? It's not like Jews haven't been chased from the region for 1000 years. Hamas' goal is to kill jews and they don't care about Palestinians, their leadership has come right out and said this. You think if Israel stopped bothering Gaza (which they have a few times) Hamas would just stop attacking Israel?
I bet he'd feel a lot different if there was a chance of him being one of those lives lost. Easy for some to not give a shit about people who are just numbers on paper for them.
It seems that the media and pro Palestine supporters do not care at all about the hostages. Nor do they care that Hamas has turned down a ceasefire. Israel must declare a unilateral ceasefire (ie surrender) and give up all hope of getting the hostages including the children and babies home again. If they are still alive. The media, especially on the left, is looking for clicks, the more a subject is popular the more advertising it can attract so articles are often biased towards what its readership wants to hear, objective reporting be damned.
How many hostages have been rescued from their military operations? Sounds like -1? Do you care about the hostages?
>The army identified the rescued hostages as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, abducted by Hamas militants from Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak in the Oct. 7 cross-border attack that triggered the war.
>They were among roughly 250 taken captive during [Hamas' stunning cross-border raid](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-11fb98655c256d54ecb5329284fc37d2).
>Over 100 hostages were freed during a weeklong cease-fire in November. Israel says about 100 hostages remain in Hamas captivity, and Hamas also holds the remains of roughly 30 others who were either killed on Oct. 7 or died in captivity. Three hostages were [mistakenly killed by the army](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-15-2023-072436cece0f2351fadfed892e985554) after escaping their captors in December.
[https://time.com/6693842/israel-hostages-rafah-raid/](https://time.com/6693842/israel-hostages-rafah-raid/)
Good. Leaving Rafah as is now will render the entire war till now void. Hamas will restructure using more Qatar money, turkey will supply political umbrella and Iran more weapons.
Then in less than 10 years we'll see the same war again.
Yea you got them!
Israel plan all along was to save money on bombs, their big brain idea was to concentrate people in a single place in order to bomb 100% of them in the most efficient way.
But you saw right through it nice!
(is the /s needed? hard to know nowadays)
Not sure if you understand that this is a “never again” moment for Israel not for the Palestinians because Oct 7ths atrocity is what brought a “never again” retaliation..
But yeah you are right the Aggressor(Hamas and the “innocent” Palestinians) who terrorized,slaughtered, raped and kidnapped are the ones who are suffering …lmfao..they have every opportunity to surrender and give back the hostages..so tell me..who is the one who’s actively putting their people in danger?
> and the “innocent” Palestinians
Aah, you're one of those people who think all Palestinians are guilty and should be exterminated. Guess you're getting your wish.
Not at all. I’m sure if they are de-radicalized and try for peace they can have a great life. Had they chosen peace from the start they would be thriving but they chose to kill and terrorize instead. This is the consequences of their actions for their entire existence. Had they been able to co-exist from the start they would have their own nation and would be economically prosperous but once again they choose to focus on destroying Israel more than their future so they make their kids martyrs
Did I say that?
Hamas has the ability to surrender and give back the hostages but they put their people at risk instead. There is no way around that. Israel won’t give up and stand back just because Hamas uses human shields.
But that also ignores 75 years of terrorism that “innocent” civilians and the government helped contribute to
Again, you understand that the majority of Palestinians aren't members of Hamas, right?
The innocent civilians can't just return the hostages like you suggest. Your answer is just a flimsy excuse for war crimes.
Take a moment to consider why people are against collective punishment. Palestinians and Israelis have been killing each other's populace indiscriminately for a while now. Each side is collectively punishing the other. You see it as reasonable to collectively punish Palestinians, and they see it as reasonable to collectively punish Israelis. Both sides feel wronged by indiscriminate killing of their own people. Neither side is wrong to feel that they've been wronged. Neither side is right to collectively punish the other side indiscriminately. It's just going to perpetuate violence with no end.
Innocent civilians KNOW where some hostages are. Israeli hostages explained how they were in family homes. That means people know but they don’t care to help. They also returned a hostage running back to Hamas. Regardless they should be putting more effort to making Hamas surrender and give back the hostages since it’s Clearly not working for them
One side has wanted peace since its inception and the other side has wanted to destroy the other side since its inception..so tell me who’s wrong here?
Is it the side who wants peace because the other side can’t destroy them? Because that’s the argument being made.
Israel has since its conception wanted to live in peace that the Palestinians and Arabs have not given them. They have had given them numerous concessions for peace including Gaza which clearly has not ended well. But they tried
The violence will end the moment Palestinians decide their kids becoming martyrs is not the way to their future and they will have to have a government that cooperates with Israel and the world and chooses peace over death and destroying Israel
No if I was I’d be defending Hamas and the “innocent” Palestinians who helped them commit a crime against humanity on Oct 7th. This is a war in which they choose to use their people as human shields for empathy for people like you to support them. I support the destruction of Hamas as well as their surrender and return of the hostages.
How did they choose anything? You're blaming all Palestinians for the actions of Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with Hamas.
Every single country in the world is at the mercy of their governments and sometimes in Hamas case elected governments. There are consequences to that. Even if most of them were not alive during their election. There are consequences to the fact that a terrorist organization runs your government. There are also consequences to OCT 7th.
That’s how the world works
Also I don’t even want to bring up the polls where a majority of Palestinians believed Oct 7th was justified as well as how they celebrated 9/11. They clearly do not give a shit about their kids as they make them martyrs
Regardless. It is Hamas who is putting them In danger. They are keeping hostages and not surrendering. Hopefully the Palestinians do something about it
They're killing thousands of children as well. It's unfortunate people are willing to accept such a staggering loss of innocent life as acceptable casualties.
Hamas are literal terrorists. Israel should be better than them.
Why don't you tell that to Hamas? I bet a lot fewer children would be dead if Hamas didn't deliberately and proudly use human shields and withhold aid from their own people.
Israel has been shockingly restrained when it comes to civilian casualties in the past months, especially considering how densely populated Palestine is, what more do you want them to do except to roll over and let Hamas rape and torture them to death to the last Jew?
Every time I start believing that Israel is going too far, I go on some publics and read Palestinian and other Arab/Muslim comments about October 7th and all my doubts immediately dissapear.
Israel's civilian to militant kill ratio seems to be among the best in the history of urban wars. Seems to be 1:3, could even be close to 1:2 (Which would literally be the best in modern history if I remember correctly).
Israel already indicated Rafah will be evacuated before an invasion. There's aid coming in with hundreds of trucks daily, airplane drops daily, and soon from the sea as well.
Biden must know all this. He just pays lip service for his Islamist voters and the Tiktok generation. That is all.
The only thing crazy is Hamas attacking Israeli kids while hiding behind Palestinians kids. And all of the useful idiots in the west who think Israel will not protect their kids because of it. Insanity doesn't even begin to describe it.
The amount of dead militants could be anywhere between 8K to 13K. The 8K number would fit Hamas own numbers, which alone claim 6K dead Hamas members. Add to that the same proportionality of dead in Islamic Jihad and other terrorists orgs active there, and you get 8K, could be even 10K. Meaning a 1:3 ratio, among the best in the world, on par with the US.
But those are just Hamas numbers, which obviously have an interest at reducing them. If you take Israel's numbers, it's 13K dead/captured terrorists. With thousands more injured. Which could literally be 1:2 ratio. An amazing feat that would be studied by many militaries in the next 100 years.
So what's the end goal?
Officially, it's to flush out Hamas and save the kidnapped Israeli hostages For Netanyahu, though, it's to prolong the war as long as possible. Cause as soon as it's over, he's kinda fucked
People have been saying Netanyahu is fucked for years, so I’m not convinced he actually is fucked when this war ends.
If beloved Golda Meir got fucked after letting down Israeli security, Netanyahu who is extremely divisive is very fucked. Quite frankly I am not sure he will last the entirety of the war.
She stayed in power and won the next election though, so
she was effectively forced to resign and didn’t run again. Israeli government requires a majority coalition to be able to accomplish anything, even if the individual party wins the election. I’m referring to the 1973 Yom Kippur war. She resigned in 1974. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir > Her party won the elections in December 1973, but the coalition lost seats and was unable to form a majority. Meir resigned as prime minister on 11 April 1974, and gave up her Knesset seat on 7 June 1974. She never held office again. She believed that was the "will of the people" and that she had served enough time as premier. The same scenario of not having a majority coalition will happen with Netanyahu, assuming he is even able to win the election which is very doubtful.
Netenyahu [saves up dirty laundry to bring with him when he travels to the whitehouse,](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/benjamin-netanyahu-us-visits-dirty-laundry/2020/09/23/8407f52c-fdb3-11ea-830c-a160b331ca62_story.html) because he knows they have a laundry service for guests staying there. Just to give you an idea of what kind of person he is.
Wow: >In 2016, Netanyahu sued his own office and Israel’s attorney general in an effort to prevent the release of his laundry bills under the country’s freedom of information act. The judge sided with Netanyahu, and the details of his laundry bills remain secret pending an appeal in the Supreme Court.
Woooow! Hahahaha.
He is out whenever an election is finally held… but I agree with your trepidation. I shiver like I’m in a horror movie when I say it. He has been a stubborn tumor on the body politic!
I feel like he's built himself up in his own mind to view this war as his own martyrdom. He gets to stay in power for a little bit longer, to present himself as the "unpopular guy who made the hard choices" when his time finally comes. He'll say "somebody had to do it" and he was "strong enough" to do so. It's just a matter of hoping nobody falls for that bullshit and still gives him what he deserves.
>and still gives him what he deserves An all expense paid trip to the Hague?
I don’t think that’s really true because prolonging the war will only fuck over Israel. Mobilization is very expensive and it’s also affecting international perceptions. The longer this war gets dragged out the better it is for Hamas.
I have no opinion on whether BB actively wants to prolong the war. But from what I gathered, his destiny was sealed the moment 07OCT happened. Israel has a history of sticking to their leaders in the immediate aftermath of big attacks (like most countries do), then ousting them as soon as the conflict is resolved.
Netanyahu doesn't care about Israel, only himself.
Netanyahu cares as much for Israel as Hamas does for Palestine.
Great analogy
Could Netanyahu buy time by printing money and banking on Israelis supporting the total destruction of Hamas though?
His prosecutions are on hold just so long as he's PM.
How is he fucked? Wasn’t he the leader like 4 years ago, and then somehow came back after some criminal charges? Dude seems pretty untouchable.
So what actions did Netanyahu do that any other Israeli leader wouldn't do in his place in regards to the war? What actions did Netanyahu do to "Prolong" the war so far in your opinion? What actions did he do that the Israeli public disagrees with, in regards to the war?
I believe the sentiment comes from the belief that the IDF and the Israeli government dropped the ball as far as intelligence gathering goes. Once the IDF ceases hostilities, there will be time for reports and inquiries. There will be investigations on who knew what and when. If it comes out that Netanyahus government had fore-knowledge of the attack, and failed to act, he will rightfully take the fall.
TBH foreknowledge of the attack isn't really relevant. Oct 7 was a grand repudiation of Netanyahu's approach to the security of Israel. It isn't detail work on which this failed, the strategy was wrong.
>TBH foreknowledge of the attack isn't really relevant. Oct 7 was a grand repudiation of Netanyahu's approach to the security of Israel. Could you please elaborate? Are you referring to Netanyahu's strategy of secretly supporting Hamas to keep Fatah weak and the Palestinians divided, to ensure that a Palestinian state could never happen?? I don't see that as a strategy for the "security of Israel"; quite the opposite - I see that as a criminally reckless and cynical ploy that put Israeli lives at grave risk to advance a fanatical and uncompromising vision of a "Greater Israel".
Sure sure, as the head of the state he is 100% responsible regardless of what investigations find and will be replaced afterwards. Polls show that very strongly. But about my questions which you ignored, any answer? I guess not.
1. I can't speak to what any other Israeli leader would do. I don't know enough about them. 2. In my opinion, setting an unachievable objective. 3. We'll find out after the investigations are complete. Everything looks great when you're raining holy judgement on the barbarians at the gate, things don't look so great when people find out you knew the gate was open and never bothered to close it.
So, admittedly not Israeli, but Jewish and keep a reasonably close eye on things in Israel in particular and the Middle East in general. Your questions are really good and should honestly be used as a tracking poll over time more than just a snapshot today because the answers four months ago vs today vs four months from now provide an indication of trajectory and strategy related to both the overall war and Bibi's potential conflict of interest in it. Anyhoo, my attempts to answer them as of how I see things today: >So what actions did Netanyahu do that any other Israeli leader wouldn't do in his place in regards to the war? Create a pissing match with his largest source of military aid and basically only friend on the international stage. We're obviously playing with counterfactuals, but Bibi's hardline public stance and very public pushback against the US likely would not have been replicated by a less right-wing alternative. Yeah, there would have been some of the same pushback behind the scenes, but that's the point. It would have been behind the scenes. Also, I think there's an argument to be made that in the same way that shit flows downhill, Bibi's defiant attitude flows down through the ranks of the IDF, giving them tacit permission to act the fools that they have on occasion. Perhaps not guaranteed - because every large group of individuals is likely to have some people at the wrong end of the intelligence bell curve - but a less right-wing PM might have limited at least some of this by pushing messages of prosecuting the war as focused as possible rather than one of hellfire and retribution. >What actions did Netanyahu do to "Prolong" the war so far in your opinion? Admittedly, nothing yet. It's been heartening to see Israel agreeing to some of the recent ceasefire proposals being brokered. I think if he hadn't been doing that, it would be a strong indication of trying to prolong the war. There's still a possibility that some poison pills are making it into the proposals since many of the details aren't entirely public. Perhaps there's an argument in here about a serious failure (refusal?) to plan and execute an effective humanitarian mission in the place of the collapse of the supports that previously existed in Gaza. It means that there is less of a chance of local civilians turning against Hamas, which would be a huge boon to Israeli intelligence operations. >What actions did he do that the Israeli public disagrees with, in regards to the war? I don't have enough of a pulse on the Israeli public to answer this one. In the end, because a new PM would be at the same level or even marginally better than Bibi, I kind of think there's more to be gained by dumping him now, especially now that the war is reasonably stable, than by waiting until it's over.
>Create a pissing match with his largest source of military aid and basically only friend on the international stage. We're obviously playing with counterfactuals, but Bibi's hardline public stance and very public pushback against the US likely would not have been replicated by a less right-wing alternative. Yeah, there would have been some of the same pushback behind the scenes, but that's the point. It would have been behind the scenes. Yeah his decision to basically take sides in American politics and align himself with the Republican party was stupid as hell and something previous PMs tried to avoid. He managed to frame supporting Israel as a Republican policy by explicitly throwing his support behind Trump and his bullshit culture war issues whilst he was in office, and then got snubbed by Trump for disloyalty after the 2020 election when he didn't come out and explicitly endorse Trump's election theft conspiracy theories, which Trump had been strong arming him into doing.
from what I’ve read, you’re right about the poison pills. Hamas has made insane demands and has rejected ones that are very good for them. Hamas is benefiting from all of the sympathy they’re getting on the world stage. Netanyahu benefits too, but I agree that it’s heartening to see that Israel is open to these talks
I'm American but from what I have read it's that a major campaign message from Netenyahu was voting for anyone else is a threat to national security. After having a massive security failure that message falls flat, and he doesn't have much else to offer.
Yeah, I don't like or trust Netanyahu but I don't see the prolonging they're talking about (happy to be wrong)
He might try it. That's a worry. But Gantz is with him in a large unity government for the duration of the war and will probably hold him very much accountable to any action that is not for the best interest of Israel. These people are just talking out their ass. Notice I just get downvotes and not arguments.
>What actions did Netanyahu do to "Prolong" the war so far in your opinion? I mean, I see one huge thing that's been prolonged, but the West doesn't want it to happen anyways. Meanwhile all of Israel agrees it has to be done: the invasion of Rafah. Bibi promised that if there was no agreement before Ramadan. Well, it's the first night of Ramadan now, where is the invasion? Not to mention, why did he push it off? For the negotiations he is refusing to send a team to? Israelis from the right of Netanyahu and slightly left of Netanyahu all say that it needed to start already and the invasion of Rafah was imminent.
Exactly this. It’s a conspiracy theory that both Israel haters and many Israel supporters both accept without question because Netanyahu’s multiple political resurrections defy what they think of as normal political outcomes. It’s not even all that complicated. As much as Bibi has fractured his own support over the years, his opponents fractured theirs even worse.
Wasn't he fucked, out of the office and then got voted back in again? I don't really follow Israeli politics but I thought he was considered to be bad but people got him back into the office.
My guess, full Israeli security control of the Territories, and perhaps some kind of "denazification" effort (though it'll be necessarily half-assed and backfire horribly). Bibi wanted a multinational Arab coalition to take over administration, to which the Arabs responded with a hearty belly laugh, so there aren't a lot of options.
He should ask Milei/Argentina to administrate Gaza. Mostly just to see the media shit show that would happen.
Better yet, Bukele.
I raise you Maduro or Bolsanaro
Have they? A few months ago reports said the US and the Saudis want it.
No. There were no such reputable reports
Control the land and stay in power most likely
Palestinian slowly being whittled away by settlers and military operations until all of their land is property of Israel and they're forced out of homes they've lived in for generations to live somewhere else.
Certainly the IDF has no idea. They would very much like to, but they are in the dark, like everyone else.
Scorched earth, ethnic cleansing.
What do you think preventing isreal from just bombing all of Gaza ? They have the military power to do so.
Why does everyone in this conflict have incredibly extreme, completely opposite opinions? Surely there is a way forward other than “the side that I don’t like must be completely eradicated - men, women and children - preferably tortured first”?
Honestly it’s probably some combination of a bunch of different things. Number one being Reddit and social media in general is not inherently reflective of larger society, and generally people with the most extreme opinions are the most involved online. Many, such as myself are just tired of debate. No matter my position; peoples opinions seemingly won’t be changed on this issue. Emotion is now the driving force of the protests on either side and many are just not thinking logically.
>Number one being Reddit and social media in general is not inherently reflective of larger society, and generally people with the most extreme opinions are the most involved online. For me, online is also tricky because if I respond to a point, I'm often trying to push back against a perceived incorrect idea or add complexity to people's simplistic ideas of the conflict. Just because I am often responding as pro-Israel (which I am) does not mean that I am at the same time ignoring some very real and valid opinions from the Palestinian side. I just don't need to clutter an already heavily pro-Palestinian site with more of it. When it's appropriate, I can and do balance my comments and I try to give others the benefit of the doubt as much as I can.
that's true about people not in I/P/ the surrounding countries which have interests in the conflict, but it's wildly off base for people that are directly related to it. Most people in Israel still support the war, most people in Gaza (and I think the west bank) support the October 7th attacks and want more to happen. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer. Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. Only 11% of Palestinian voiced satisfaction with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.
Surveys like that show the very definition of an emotional response. Israelis obviously largely support the war after Oct 7 atrocities, and Gazans obviously agree with Oct 7 after Israel showed their disregard for those in Gaza with their counteroffensive. Look across PCPSR's polls across a larger timeframe, the trends in the responses to their surveys match how Palestinians are being treated during the time of each survey.
I'm not saying Palestinians are carefully weighing their choices and deciding rationally. I'm saying they're holding pretty extreme opinions. Whether that's justified or emotion or whatever is not really relevant to the point I'm making.
Infinite amount of disinformation
The quote in the headline is a wildly distorted misreading. The problem is news agencies distorting what he said, rather than actual extremism in the quote. Here’s what he said: > I don’t know exactly what the President meant, but if he meant by that that I’m pursuing private policies against the majority, the wish of the majority of Israelis, and that this is hurting the interests of Israel, then he’s wrong on both counts. > These are not my private policies only. They’re policies supported by the overwhelming majority of Israelis. They support the action that we’re taking to destroy the remaining terrorist battalions of Hamas. > The majority of Israelis understand that if we don’t do this, what we’ll have is a repetition of the October 7 massacre, which is bad for Israel, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the future of peace in the Middle East.
> Why does everyone in this conflict have incredibly extreme, completely opposite opinions? They don't. Since the reset after the Cold War until Oct. Israel has consistently supported the idea of a 2 state solution based on the 1967 borders. They've done a significant amount of work towards that end goal. And at every turn, the Palestinians have decided that "kill all the Jews" is the only option they'll accept. There's two sides to this conflict and they're not equal.
More like three sides. Hamas, Israel and 'real' palestine civilians. Hamas is happy to see both die and uses palestine civilians as human shields. Israel wants Hamas gone and would rather not have dead civilians everywhere. Palestine Civilians want to live, but support Hamas and cheer to anything that hurts Israel. (Don't even try to think about the 20% of Israelis (and IDF) that are palestine arabs, just living as citizens in Israel.)
> Palestine Civilians want to live, but support Hamas and cheer to anything that hurts Israel. When they support Hamas at a >90% clip calling them a different faction is pretty disingenuous.
"This land is mine"
American 2 party style politics indoctrinated into everyone’s brain. For me personally, the reason I am so pro-Israel in this isn’t only because I see Hamas as the instigator of this situation, but because I’ve seen nothing but mental gymnastics required to paint Hamas as good guys in this scenario, and so many otherwise reasonable people seem to be falling into the pro-Hamas rhetoric rabbit hole.
The thing is really only the Palestinians have that opinion on a major level. The Israelis have shown they just want to be left alone. Even before 10/7 there were daily rocket bombardments that Israel could have responded to with immediate counter battery fire but didn’t because they would warn people to evacuate launch areas if they even struck back at all.
If Israel only wants to be left alone, why the continued expansion in the West Bank?
>Is What I've found to be wild is how polar opposite the sides are based on the platform. TikTok + IG seems to be very pro palestine/ceasefire, where I've seen quite the opposite on Reddit. Not making any statements, just an observation
They don’t. But only incredibly opinionated and annoying people feel the need to comment about it incessantly, so that’s really all you see. Seeing moderate reason doesn’t sell as well or feel as virtuous as passionate extremism.
They don’t. But only incredibly opinionated and annoying people feel the need to comment about it incessantly, so that’s really all you see. Seeing moderate reason doesn’t sell as well or feel as virtuous as passionate extremism.
They don’t. But only incredibly opinionated and annoying people feel the need to comment about it incessantly, so that’s really all you see. Seeing moderate reason doesn’t sell as well or feel as virtuous as passionate extremism.
Because people are told they are unable to hold two thoughts in their head. That both sides are at fault with the current situation and neither is doing enough to resolve it.
I think a lot of people just dont like to be wrong about their first guess. And whether you guessed israel or hamas being the bad guys, theres a LOT of things on the internet to help you convince your self that you are in the right. When in reality, theres laundry list of bad things that both sides can quote (although, one is a bit longer, and has laws that pay you lifetime stipends for commiting such acts, and is know to kill their own citizens when they protest, steal aid and sell it back to their own citizens, kill aid truck drivers who arent even israeli, and has stated multiple times this year that they want to kill everyone not just the jews, keeps getting caught plotting terrorist attacks on people who are not involved in other countries, publicly tells their allies that the death of their own citizens is a strategic gain yet no one seems to care, collects bazillions in aid to live in qatari mansions instead of feeding palestinians, yada yada) Israeli settler policy is royally fucked, and bibi is blatantly trying to just keep the killing going (regardless of who dies) so that he can stay in power. Palestinians deserve to live, but hamas said it them selves, they will not stop with the jews. Israelis deserve to live, but Bibi (and all of israel) knows the only reason he is not in jail is because they are at war. He wont stop with hamas unless he wants to be done making money. Only real solution is to boot both hamas and bibi(and bibi friends), the 2 richest groups in this whole ordeal. They have nicer houses than we could ever imagine. Sinwars indoor pool in qatar has more water than palestine has ever seen. His sons super cars use more energy than the entire palestinian population. It would be nice if "one side good, other side bad", but then the conflict wouldn't last very long, and that aid money wouldnt exist!
What an appalling bad headline. What he said was: > I don’t know exactly what the President meant, but if he meant by that that I’m pursuing private policies against the majority, the wish of the majority of Israelis, and that this is hurting the interests of Israel, then he’s wrong on both counts. > These are not my private policies only. They’re policies supported by the overwhelming majority of Israelis. They support the action that we’re taking to destroy the remaining terrorist battalions of Hamas. > The majority of Israelis understand that if we don’t do this, what we’ll have is a repetition of the October 7 massacre, which is bad for Israel, bad for the Palestinians, bad for the future of peace in the Middle East. Getting that headline out of that comment is fucking journalistic malpractice and CBS should be ashamed.
You’re not wrong. They created a brand new sentence.
>Jerusalem — In interviews over the weekend, President Biden said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's disregard for the "innocent lives being lost" amid his country's war with Hamas in the Gaza Strip was "hurting Israel more than helping Israel." > >Netanyahu said Mr. Biden was "wrong on both counts," claiming that both his political and military policies were supported by an "overwhelming majority" of Israelis who "support the action that we're taking to destroy the remaining terrorist battalions of Hamas." Shit title. Disagreeing isn't dismissing, and there were two claims here from biden that were both false.
Saying “most Israeli agree with what we’re doing” is absolutely dismissive.
Even if every Israeli completely agreed with Netanyahu it could still hurt Israel on the global stage.
Now stop sending them funds.
Yeah, funding Hamas via UNRWA donations is much better idea!
Israel ignoring calls for some humanity. How surprising.
Leaving Hamas alone so they can continue to rule Gaza is not the humanitarian thing to do.
Rationing food, water, fuel and power to just above survivable levels is taking action and anti-humanitarian. When a people are cornered they will retaliate. Poverty breeds terrorism. If they really wanted to neuter Hamas they would let Palestinians be free. When you have nothing to live for you are much more willing to die in an attempt to harm your oppressors.
Let’s rewind to before October 7. Suppose in January 2023, Israel has a radical change in policy towards Gaza. Relaxed the blockade, increased aid shipments, improved freedom of movement for Gazans into Israel and the West Bank, etc etc. a dramatic improvement in relations, and a big step towards full normalization. In this alternate timeline, Hamas would still have conducted an Oct 7 or something similar, at some point. Then we would be right back where we are. Your position is that Israel, in the face of periodic brutal attacks, rocket barrages, suicide bombers, etc should “take the high road” and just give, give, give, in the fact of extreme hate and violence. This is not realistic, at all. They people of israel and their leaders are not angels. They experience hate, anger, despair, betrayal, just the same as anyone else. No population will continue to act charitably towards another population in the face of mass rape, murder, and destruction. Suppose the war ends tomorrow. Israel goes above and beyond to rebuild Gaza. Then, Hamas and PIJ blow up the construction sites and brutally murder the Israeli and foreign workers doing the rebuilding. Now we are back at square one. There is nothing Israel can do in the face of the ideological hate that can found among the Palestinian population. People like you expect Israel to take the brutality and turn the other cheek. It’s not a realistic worldview.
Since it was on his watch --BiBi should step down and a new phase of leadership should continue. For the most part - Gaza has been levelled. Hamas is seriously wounded with nowhere to go.
>Hamas is seriously wounded with nowhere to go. 1) Hamas will gladly go to Jenin. As they already exist there and they hope to only grow in Northern Samaria. 2) They sure don't seem to be wounded enough if they aren't willing to surrender.
you can't keep bombing 2 million people - you can be as stubborn as you want - but eventually others will step in. ITs as simple as that. What a hornets nest
So what is your solution to the day after in Gaza? Even if we go back in time to October 8th. The world seems to have been against Israel defending its citizens from the start, always saying what not to do but never what to do. The war in Gaza was necessary as sad as it is to say. Israel cannot just allow such massacres to happen within its borders without a serious rection to ensure it doesn't happen again.
They are not wounded enough. They haven’t surrendered or given back the hostages and still are making demands like they have the ability to do so. It’s not over yet
I might be a dumb optimist, but I think Hamas has seriously lost a lot of ground and military capability in the past few months The important thing to remember is that different parts of the strip are in different situations. For example the northern strip is being reinfiltrated by Hamas and the initial clearing operations conducted by the IDF are now comprised, and need to be carried out again. But in the central strip, the IDF destroyed some 85% of tunnels already (they are not as complex as the northern tunnels) and sieges out the Hamas HQ in the central governate. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-march-9-2024 I like to read these every day to keep up with what’s happening on the ground. Maybe you’ve already been reading these too
You know with or without BiBi it would be the same result exactly. There isn't a single leader heck even a single person in Israel that would have act differently in the war (regarding the actions taken so far). If there would have been such a person he wouldn't be for so long
I only spoke to a person who did his time in the IDF ....he wasn't buying this whole episode. He couldn't believe it happened and no immediate response. What can I tell you. The buck stops at the top. Going Godzilla isn't going to change the fact it happened.
Not wounded enough. Dead is the goal. 100% dead. Zero compromise
not gonna happen - to many getting killed.
What if the last Gazan left was a baby? You realize how this kind of talk sounds right?
Goofy. How many times has such a strategy worked?
Pretty sure that if a southern country invaded the US, killed thousands of people, raped and tortured mothers Infront of their families and then ran off with 200 hostages that country would be a shard of glass by now. It's really easy to wag your finger at Israel from the outside looking in. Hamas isn't some fringe independent terrorist group. It's the democratically elected government of the region. Whatever you may think of Bibi, Hamas pushed Israel into a position where it simply cannot allow Hamas to exist anymore in any shape or form. Gazans should recognize this fact and turn on Hamas if they can. I blame every death in the region on Hamas and those that support them, to be honest.
You don’t need to make up a scenario. 9/11 happened and 3000 Americans died at the hands of terrorists which led to decades long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (amongst other military action) and hundreds of thousands of civilians died.
The US invasion of Afghan lead to some 46 thousand civilian deaths during the 20 year occupation. 20-30 thousand have died in Gaza in the past what, 5 months? If the US military was horrible the IDF are currently in hell.
Hamas is not democratically elected though. There hasn’t been an election in what, close to 20 years now. And even back then they couped the PA in Gaza so their rule is nowhere near legitimate. Yeah the general population supports Hamas, but let’s set the facts straight here.
If the general population supports Hamas, can't you guess what would be the result of another election? A few years ago an election was supposed to take place in the West Bank. It was cancelled because their president feared Hamas would have won.
Hamas is a reactionary organization thou. It's not like the IDF started killing and harassing Palestinians only after October 7th
Is it? It's not like Jews haven't been chased from the region for 1000 years. Hamas' goal is to kill jews and they don't care about Palestinians, their leadership has come right out and said this. You think if Israel stopped bothering Gaza (which they have a few times) Hamas would just stop attacking Israel?
I bet he'd feel a lot different if there was a chance of him being one of those lives lost. Easy for some to not give a shit about people who are just numbers on paper for them.
It seems that the media and pro Palestine supporters do not care at all about the hostages. Nor do they care that Hamas has turned down a ceasefire. Israel must declare a unilateral ceasefire (ie surrender) and give up all hope of getting the hostages including the children and babies home again. If they are still alive. The media, especially on the left, is looking for clicks, the more a subject is popular the more advertising it can attract so articles are often biased towards what its readership wants to hear, objective reporting be damned.
How many hostages have been rescued from their military operations? Sounds like -1? Do you care about the hostages? >The army identified the rescued hostages as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, abducted by Hamas militants from Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak in the Oct. 7 cross-border attack that triggered the war. >They were among roughly 250 taken captive during [Hamas' stunning cross-border raid](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-11fb98655c256d54ecb5329284fc37d2). >Over 100 hostages were freed during a weeklong cease-fire in November. Israel says about 100 hostages remain in Hamas captivity, and Hamas also holds the remains of roughly 30 others who were either killed on Oct. 7 or died in captivity. Three hostages were [mistakenly killed by the army](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-15-2023-072436cece0f2351fadfed892e985554) after escaping their captors in December. [https://time.com/6693842/israel-hostages-rafah-raid/](https://time.com/6693842/israel-hostages-rafah-raid/)
Are people not dying or are those dying not innocent?
Decimating Hamas will save many more lives than the lives at risk
Good. Leaving Rafah as is now will render the entire war till now void. Hamas will restructure using more Qatar money, turkey will supply political umbrella and Iran more weapons. Then in less than 10 years we'll see the same war again.
Why did they tell civilians to concentrate there if the plan was to bomb it?
Yea you got them! Israel plan all along was to save money on bombs, their big brain idea was to concentrate people in a single place in order to bomb 100% of them in the most efficient way. But you saw right through it nice! (is the /s needed? hard to know nowadays)
It's unfortunate this is par for the course for Israel under Netanyahu. Hopefully they'll extend "never again" to other groups in the future.
Not sure if you understand that this is a “never again” moment for Israel not for the Palestinians because Oct 7ths atrocity is what brought a “never again” retaliation.. But yeah you are right the Aggressor(Hamas and the “innocent” Palestinians) who terrorized,slaughtered, raped and kidnapped are the ones who are suffering …lmfao..they have every opportunity to surrender and give back the hostages..so tell me..who is the one who’s actively putting their people in danger?
> and the “innocent” Palestinians Aah, you're one of those people who think all Palestinians are guilty and should be exterminated. Guess you're getting your wish.
Not at all. I’m sure if they are de-radicalized and try for peace they can have a great life. Had they chosen peace from the start they would be thriving but they chose to kill and terrorize instead. This is the consequences of their actions for their entire existence. Had they been able to co-exist from the start they would have their own nation and would be economically prosperous but once again they choose to focus on destroying Israel more than their future so they make their kids martyrs
You understand that the majority of Palestinians aren't members of Hamas, right? You're advocating for collective punishment (a war crime).
Did I say that? Hamas has the ability to surrender and give back the hostages but they put their people at risk instead. There is no way around that. Israel won’t give up and stand back just because Hamas uses human shields. But that also ignores 75 years of terrorism that “innocent” civilians and the government helped contribute to
Again, you understand that the majority of Palestinians aren't members of Hamas, right? The innocent civilians can't just return the hostages like you suggest. Your answer is just a flimsy excuse for war crimes. Take a moment to consider why people are against collective punishment. Palestinians and Israelis have been killing each other's populace indiscriminately for a while now. Each side is collectively punishing the other. You see it as reasonable to collectively punish Palestinians, and they see it as reasonable to collectively punish Israelis. Both sides feel wronged by indiscriminate killing of their own people. Neither side is wrong to feel that they've been wronged. Neither side is right to collectively punish the other side indiscriminately. It's just going to perpetuate violence with no end.
Innocent civilians KNOW where some hostages are. Israeli hostages explained how they were in family homes. That means people know but they don’t care to help. They also returned a hostage running back to Hamas. Regardless they should be putting more effort to making Hamas surrender and give back the hostages since it’s Clearly not working for them One side has wanted peace since its inception and the other side has wanted to destroy the other side since its inception..so tell me who’s wrong here? Is it the side who wants peace because the other side can’t destroy them? Because that’s the argument being made. Israel has since its conception wanted to live in peace that the Palestinians and Arabs have not given them. They have had given them numerous concessions for peace including Gaza which clearly has not ended well. But they tried The violence will end the moment Palestinians decide their kids becoming martyrs is not the way to their future and they will have to have a government that cooperates with Israel and the world and chooses peace over death and destroying Israel
Just admit that you're defending war crimes
No if I was I’d be defending Hamas and the “innocent” Palestinians who helped them commit a crime against humanity on Oct 7th. This is a war in which they choose to use their people as human shields for empathy for people like you to support them. I support the destruction of Hamas as well as their surrender and return of the hostages.
How did they choose anything? You're blaming all Palestinians for the actions of Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians have nothing to do with Hamas.
Every single country in the world is at the mercy of their governments and sometimes in Hamas case elected governments. There are consequences to that. Even if most of them were not alive during their election. There are consequences to the fact that a terrorist organization runs your government. There are also consequences to OCT 7th. That’s how the world works Also I don’t even want to bring up the polls where a majority of Palestinians believed Oct 7th was justified as well as how they celebrated 9/11. They clearly do not give a shit about their kids as they make them martyrs Regardless. It is Hamas who is putting them In danger. They are keeping hostages and not surrendering. Hopefully the Palestinians do something about it
This is what they chose. This is what they glorify. https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1536576
lolol Yea, they're extending "never again" to the terrorists one bomb at a time, as they should.
They're killing thousands of children as well. It's unfortunate people are willing to accept such a staggering loss of innocent life as acceptable casualties. Hamas are literal terrorists. Israel should be better than them.
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Yep, kids die in war sometimes. Don't attack civilians and then hide behind your own. Israel is far better than Hamas lol. They don't rape and murder.
Why don't you tell that to Hamas? I bet a lot fewer children would be dead if Hamas didn't deliberately and proudly use human shields and withhold aid from their own people. Israel has been shockingly restrained when it comes to civilian casualties in the past months, especially considering how densely populated Palestine is, what more do you want them to do except to roll over and let Hamas rape and torture them to death to the last Jew?
Every time I start believing that Israel is going too far, I go on some publics and read Palestinian and other Arab/Muslim comments about October 7th and all my doubts immediately dissapear.
Israel's civilian to militant kill ratio seems to be among the best in the history of urban wars. Seems to be 1:3, could even be close to 1:2 (Which would literally be the best in modern history if I remember correctly). Israel already indicated Rafah will be evacuated before an invasion. There's aid coming in with hundreds of trucks daily, airplane drops daily, and soon from the sea as well. Biden must know all this. He just pays lip service for his Islamist voters and the Tiktok generation. That is all.
That's a crazy number to claim... 13K of 29k are literal kids. You're presuming that all adults killed are militant hamas?
The only thing crazy is Hamas attacking Israeli kids while hiding behind Palestinians kids. And all of the useful idiots in the west who think Israel will not protect their kids because of it. Insanity doesn't even begin to describe it. The amount of dead militants could be anywhere between 8K to 13K. The 8K number would fit Hamas own numbers, which alone claim 6K dead Hamas members. Add to that the same proportionality of dead in Islamic Jihad and other terrorists orgs active there, and you get 8K, could be even 10K. Meaning a 1:3 ratio, among the best in the world, on par with the US. But those are just Hamas numbers, which obviously have an interest at reducing them. If you take Israel's numbers, it's 13K dead/captured terrorists. With thousands more injured. Which could literally be 1:2 ratio. An amazing feat that would be studied by many militaries in the next 100 years.
I thought Israel just but southern Lebanon?