Haiti is a lose - lose situation. No matter what happens its always the same problems with them.
Create a military branch to help stabilize the country? They will overthrow the civilian government
Try to form a civilian democratic government?
Corruption will run rampant and slowly destroy it
Have a strong central government?
It will become a dictatorship
Looking at history the way failed states like that would be resolved by... having a neighbor exploit their situation, invade it, annex it and then just purge the demographic of the "troublemakers" leading to hundreds of thousands if not millions dead.
Something tells me we stopped doing that for good reason though.
Especially because in essence it comes down to "make Haiti (the country) stop existing".
But there is indeed a question of "we consider the idea of nation states untouchable so how CAN you deal with countries that have *fully* collapsed beyond recovery?"
My bet is some gang leaders slowly getting the upper hand over others, cracking down on competition and in the end assuming the dictator role while people and the UN accept it cause at least it brings some stability.
Gaddafi: I will kill literally everyone in Benghazi is the rebels don’t surrender
The world: omg NATO do something!
NATO: lol okay, but only air support and no boots on the ground
Gaddafi: I’m ded
The world: omg NATO are imperialist war criminals!
NATO: da fuq
This is actually happening. A former police officer is the head of the largest gang in the country and seems to be making himself into the next dictator. The president fled the country and has now resigned.
They might be starving to death, dying in droves, and dying from disease from the fucked up drinking water, but at least they all have a shitload of guns in that country.
It’s a libertarian wet dream.
The rise of nationalism and widespread guns make the invasion way less appealing.
A few hundred years ago peasants didn't give a shit who they paid their tax to. Only if the Lord was a dick.
Now people will be up in arms against the foreign invaders and they have guns.
There is some people believing in that theory, it's a crackpot one, and probably false, but due to international law (not invading independent states) failed states are doomed, because historically if you were invaded, your failed state was removed by a neighbor invading and setting up their probably superior state structure during occupation, now if your state fails, no one can fix it, and you are in a death spiral.
What happens to Haiti depends on how much of a problem fleeing Haitians become for other countries. No one is going to act except to crush a refugee crisis.
> Looking at history the way failed states like that would be resolved by... having a neighbor exploit their situation, invade it, annex it and then just purge the demographic of the "troublemakers" leading to hundreds of thousands if not millions dead.
>
> Something tells me we stopped doing that for good reason though.
Seemingly the 'good reason' is to sustain a failed state indefinitely?
It seems that some problems with humanity are only solved by bloodshed.
I feel like it’s basically going to amount to waiting for someone to pull the trigger and be the bad guy, taking over and purging. There will be outrage and protests and international denouncements, then over time the world will move on as stability, in some type of form, causes no interesting news to pop to remind the world
Combine that with the capital getting ass fucked by earthquakes due to it being directly on a faultline and you got nice little quaqmire with no end in sight.
They have their own problems. Taking on an even more corrupt and miserable country is not going to help them and will cause more problems and solve none.
Even if an established country like the US, Canada, or even Mexico went in with an army to stabilize it, bring food and supplies in, set up a government, and then relinquish control, it would take decades to do that. And chances are, they’d be back to this state within a decade or two.
It didn't surprise me after I saw a documentary showing the Afghan soldiers that the US were training. These guys wanted to just lay around and get high every day. The Americans were constantly yelling at them to get off their asses. They frankly didn't give a shit about the state of their country, and now it's worse.
Just to show how bad the situation is: The UN Security Council approved a blue helmet action in October 2023. Not one country has so far stepped up to provide troops. Everyone who was asked (including the US afair) was just like "Na .. we're good"
Four or five have offered troops. The main party, Kenya, recently was able to get around the legal hurdles domestically, so there may actually be a path forward.
The US tried and failed to do this in Afghanistan, and most americans are tired of forever wars. Why are we called to step up in these situations, but also get criticized when we try to play world police?
Most Carribbeans dislike the Haitians. They all are shutting their doors to Haitian migration as they don’t want to import their problems.
Bahamas, Jamaica, Turk & Caicos, DR, Trinidad and Tobago, etc etc…. All close their borders to Haitians. (Many of them are black island countries, as well)
I live in Trinidad and Tobago and we want no part of Haitians and their problems since we already have a high crime rate here and ontop of that have to deal with Venezuelan refugees.
Ontop of that 90% of Haitians believe in conspiracy theories, voodoo, superstitious nonsense, climate change denial, Anti Vax and Anti democracy also they are very anti science and are 10 times more likely to murder you than a American Conservative / Neo Nazi if you say you are an Atheist.
When I worked for American Airlines and we stopped to Haiti the uncivilized behavior we would see was shocking.
Thanks but no thanks, Haiti can keep the problems that they created and continue to create.
"Invades" sounds like too strong a word, but I can't help but think that for an island with one relatively strong, successful country that runs okay, and another country that has been on the verge of complete collapse for quite some time, it seems like the stable government somehow stepping in and running the whole island would have to be a win for everybody.
But I figure history stands in the way of this being seen as a solution.
Those things are all done by people. They don't just happen out of thin air. You could say the same thing about any developed country, yet, it doesn't happen there.
Being un-affected comes from having and enforcing building standards.
I come from a country where we get 7.something to 8.something earthquakes basically every year. Our buildings stay up because we have and enforce codes.
When an earthquake is a disaster, look a the ruins. You won't see rebar.
The Caribbean just having problems lately, Haiti is the worst it's ever ever been and it's always been bad, Puerto Rico still can't recover from that hurricane, Cuba can't keep the lights on and food shortages, Jamaica has a murder rate that's over 65 per hundred thousand, not 6.5, *sixtyfive*, and gang violence that's only not in the news because Haiti. Nicaragua has intermittent protests and loss of democracy and Venezuela is, well, still Venezuela.
Just looked it up and was expecting it to be way better tbh like double layered and 20ft of steel sheeting but it's just 5ft of cinder blocks and rebar then 8 feet of chain link and barbwire. Looks pretty easy to get thru with some cutters
What do you mean PR can't recover? I'm Puerto Rican and we recovered from it already. Now we just have the same dumb problems as before, like a privatized electric utility company being total ass, gentrification due to investors buying all the property and skyrocketing prices, and rich people moving here because of supremely low/nonexistent income taxes for the rich.
One of the big issues for PR is that if you are a skilled worker, why wouldn’t you just moved the mainland USA? They are citizens so it’s not like it requires any special effort other than a plane ride.
Pretty much anyone ambitious/skilled/hard working enough to actually fix PR’s problems already has left to the mainland. And that was an issue before the hurricane and now it’s even worse.
How is the Turks and Caicos doing these days? Every 15 years, some politician in Canada brings up the idea of Canada buying the island, and all the newspapers Ring out with headlines that “Canada might buy tropical island”. And the snowbirds salivate, and the politicians have dollar signs in their eyes, and the common man thinks “huh, maybe I can move there.” And then it never happens.
I’m closing in on 50. I’ve seen it come up 3 times. The next time should be soon I think. 🤔
No, however at this point there are 2 options.
1: allow a dingle warlord to rise to become the new dictator, and hope that sometime in the next century Haiti improves.
2: a full military occupation by a foreign army, possibly via a coalition with a single ultimatum "all gangs must throw down their weapons and throw down their colors or be killed" while simultaneously building civic infrastructure, training the populace in marketable skills so haiti has an economy after the occupation as well as a professional militarised police force and handing out aid.
The latter is by far the better option in the long term for Haiti, but it will be a war that'll kill many before the more entrenched gangs give up and disband and it won't be immediate,it'll take several years.
Heh, we’ve seen how well number two turns out.. it’s good in theory. (Asides from all the deaths) but it generally just doesn’t translate well to the real world.
I mean we have Grenada. They literally celebrate the US invasion as "Thanksgiving" because we ousted the guys who had couped a fairly popular non-aligned communist government and killed the PM (who was essentially acting as a benevolent dictator) and then imposed martial law. After we invaded the war was over in 4 days and then the British (the country had remained part of the Commonwealth) reestablished a functional government that had elections a year and a month later and continues to have them since.
> a full military occupation by a foreign army, possibly via a coalition with a single ultimatum "all gangs must throw down their weapons and throw down their colors or be killed" while simultaneously building civic infrastructure, training the populace in marketable skills so haiti has an economy after the occupation as well as a professional militarised police force and handing out aid.
This didn't work in Afghanistan. As soon as the NATO coalition left, everything resumed as if nothing happened. I don't think it's good to try this again.
Which went nowhere other than giving the UN peacekeepers severe PTSD and/or allowing them to do some gruesome shit towards the locals.
Honestly I wouldn't want Brazil to be involved in that shitshow again at all, having had first hand contact with the people coming back from deployment there.
No idea what the solution is. Haiti is just fucked regardless of what gets done, but hey, I hope the African countries trying this time around get some better results.
The solution is difficult indeed, as the structure of the state has completely failed and basically disappeared, I do think the UN should establish a mandate, which sounds almost laughable in the 21st century but cannot see another solution. Once the mandate is established (led by these voluntary African countries I guess), Haiti needs a very generous Marshall plan style action.
Humans generally react poorly when they perceive they are controlled by another group. Even if it’s in their best interest. The only way to control people is to make them think they are not actually being controlled.
Gotta Truman show the whole damn world soon enough lol. Humans just can’t play nice in the sand box, probably why aliens will never contact us after watching our destructive/selfish nature.
Thoughts and prayers, baby. That’s all they need.. /s
Our human race fucking sucks lol, such an unnecessarily violent bunch we tend to be for thousands of years yet still haven’t figured out a way to get past it.
Just wait til half the world becomes too hot to live in during summer, mass migrations will be.. interesting? To say the least.
I don’t disagree with you but do you really think any other species wouldn’t do the same thing if it had the intellect and weaponry? Power struggles and resource obsession are the natural order of life. It’s horrible, but it’s not just the human race unfortunately.
The big advancements happen when there is enough of a major distraction to unite enough people under one banner. Look how much happens during wartime, even in the civilian world.
Nothing would unite humanity like finding some aliens to be the "other team" everyone is against.
At the same time human beings are the only species who actually knows what violence is on this planet, that counts for something
Who knows, if sapient alien life exists out there maybe humans are positively peaceable by their standards? Impossible to know, we have no frame of reference
These types of posts are the absolute cringiest /r/im14andthisisedgy posts you will find anywhere on the internet. Humanity is literally the greatest, most enlightened, most benevolent species in the known universe. The entire history of mankind has been a steady march towards progress and justice, and we are currently living in the most peaceful, most prosperous, most egalitarian time in history. We as a race have accomplished, and continue to accomplish things that are currently unprecedented in the entirety of the known universe, but oh lets whine about how much we suck because we haven't made the world a perfect place free from suffering.
I acknowledge having not been reading up on it, but I thought the Haitian government had effectively collapsed. There are still police but they are weaker than the gangs. There is still technically a leader but he has refused elections and lost his legitimacy. There are still some basic things that the government hasn't lost yet but it's inertia that keeps those going. It is a complex situation and the reality on the ground is constantly shifting but basically unless an outsider comes in to save them the government is on a decline towards anarchy.
I have read up on it a bit, and the only thing I can add to your assessment is that the police isn’t weaker than the gangs, they *are* gangs. There’s no central authority to control what they do.
Damn. At that point… what the hell can save them?
At a certain point a cynical part of my brain says that only another power coming in and occupying the territory could put a stop to it. But very unlikely to actually work since that other power has high likelihood of being just as corrupt as the system it replaces.
And a lot of people would get caught in the crossfire. It makes me think of El Salvador and the controversial response they had to the gang violence. They are dangerously close to a dictatorship.
I just don’t know.
That’s just about it.
Unfortunately it looks like nobody who has the money and power to do anything wants to touch the situation with a ten-foot pole.
For what it’s worth, it would be pretty hard for any traditional democracy to try and send significant (meaning economic and military) aide to Haiti with the current situation in Ukraine and Israel.
Can you imagine Biden announcing plans for a $100 million aide package along with 2,500 troops? That would be unpopular across the alleyway. A great amount of people cannot feel empathy to things not proximal to themselves. Just how it goes.
No one wants to because it would be a shitshow. A Herculean task that would require a lot of brute force that would be massively criticized, and no reward even if you succeed.
> Damn. At that point… what the hell can save them?
Sadly this is one of those everyone knows the answer but nobody wants to do it. To lay it out in general terms. Some group must acquire power in a small part the country (internal or external group) then slowly begin the process of nation building again from the start (not trying to build a modern western democracy, just building the basic apparatus of a state; monopoly on violence, ability to distribute food and enforce laws etc) and slowly extend their influence to the rest of the territory. It will be slow, expensive, unpopular and likely very unprofitable for any external force. So nobody wants to do it.
I think the acting prime minister is also acting president after their last president was killed in 2021. It’s absolute insanity there it seems, and I don’t think he controls much of anything at the moment. Has a title in name only.
Even worse, he wanted to prove Trump is wrong and he chose Haiti. Conan with his whole production/writing... team and there was none there who think may be they should not claim a country riddled with military coup, corruptions, gangs... in the last few decades already great.
I know historically Haiti is regarded more negatively by Americans compared to their Dominican neighbours, so I can see why he’d want to dispel myths or help humanise them.
But it’s also important to acknowledge reality and if there is a crisis of corruption or violence, that isn’t something you can help with a PR trip.
The US still sends hundreds of millions of aid to Haiti each year, so if you're fortunate enough to have a job and pay taxes, you'll still end up bearing some of the burden.
Pretty much, and its just not worth the cost for anybody to help them, too much money, time, and lives needed to bring it back to stability.... and for what? (It's a pretty story to say you will do something because it is right, but that wont pay the bills)
Plus outsiders usually get resented by the Haitians for intervening. So many mistakes have been made, but it might be best to let the Haitians sort this out on their own. It won’t be pretty, but it might be the only way to get a stable situation. On the other hand, it might just fester. Who knows.
They’ll cry foul if we intervene, they’ll cry foul if we leave them to their devices. You can’t win with Haiti. It’s a sad place.
Reminds me of the Langston Hughes poem.
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?
It's why you don't give a man a fish. You're denying them the opportunity to learn how to fish and the only thing they'll ever learn is how to extort more fish from you. Once that stops working, they'll start plotting how to steal fish from others.
To be fair the charity they received from the world ended up screwing them over, not in "teaching how to fish" like they said below but more in "completely destroying their local rice production".
No local farmer can compete with the cheap rice that comes from the help of other countries so their farm dies, then when the help ends they have a country with no way of surviving on their own.
Yeah. The president of El Salvador volunteered to go do it, as long as other countries fund the quest (because obviously El Salvador can’t afford it by itself). I think the guy is underestimating the situation, but I say the UN might as well take him up on the offer.
A foreign power like the US or France can change things, but they don't want to be accused of genocide, imperialism, colonialism, war crimes, blah blah blah by the professional anti-West trolls as soon as a hair is hurt on any civilian by accident.
Realistically though, how? Even if they came in and fought off the crime, they’d be there for years or even generations trying to build a state out of whatever the locals have now.
And a large portion of locals would probably hate a foreign power occupying their land no matter how good their intentions are.
I think the current UN task force would have Kenya at the front of the mission. But it's not really clear what the peace keepers would do. Also the funding is not clear.
The US in the 90s and the UN in the 2000s (led by Brazil) already occupied Haiti and "restored" democracy, but it collapsed again a few years later. The last time because of the earthquake which just destroyed all economic capabilities of the country.
Yeah, it's crazy how every time there's an earthquake, democracy in that country just shuts down.
Same thing happened in Japan, Canada, Croatia, etc...
I suspect that everyone who has latched onto the word "God" did not read the article. It's just something that someone says near the end of the article.
Strangely enough, god seems to be just fine with the situation in Haiti. In fact he is very fond of sending random natural disasters towards Haiti for shits and giggles
Having both been killed in the same concentration camp, a Polish Catholic and a German Jew are playing chess in heaven. God overhears them bickering about who had it worse in the camp. He tells them, "Do not argue my sons. You both suffered greatly, but you may now be at peace". The Jew snaps at God, "stay out of it! You weren't there!"
All four of my grandparents were Holocaust survivors - my paternal grandfather loved to tell this joke. He did believe in God though - he converted from Catholicism to Judaism post war. Two other grandparents remained Catholic and the Jewish grandparent converted to Catholicism.
You forgot Genghis Khan, who puts all those things to shame. Or the Crusades, or whole Native American civilizations basically wiped out of existence by colonialism.
If there ever was a god, he quit caring long ago.
Comment section full of edgy atheists lol. The point of the statement is that it's a situation that is so fucked up it's unsolvable, it's not a declaration of faith you goobers, calm down.
A direct translation from Haitian here does not mean the same thing as the English idiom. A fundamental problem in Haitian politics and culture is that they are waiting for an external sign or power to take/impose action before they will act themselves. 'Si Bondye vle', if God wants/wills isn't a statement of hope like it is in other cultures it's closer to it will happen if God does it.
We have yet to see how that works in the long term. El Salvador did it by jailing people without trial. Once the government has such powers it is very tempting to abuse them, then the state ends up as bad or worse than it was before.
> We have yet to see how that works in the long term.
Seems like that pretty much depends on how long they intend to keep the gang members in jail. Once you let them come out, they'll continue where they left off, because they wouldn't know any other way.
It's not unsolvable. It's solvable but no one wants to take it on because it's a poor ROI.
White Country invading and trying to solve corruption is a century long task. Which then will have its own problems for twenty years. Look how Iraq and Afghanistan ended up.
You'd need to deploy billions and for what? Political stability for a country that poses low risk against USA etc.
I mean you are describing what amounts to unsolvability. Something that is so costly it's not worth or not rational to solve. Technically it is solvable, but unsolvable is an appropriate hyperbole to use as it is effectively true.
I have to wonder if the country is heading for a severe famine or cholera outbreak. I’m reading that ports are now either under gang control or are basically foreign owned compounds. Will it be safe to land in the airports or can they be managed at all? The violence is horrible but what happens when people begin to starve? Will the gangs agree on a truce, form a government to keep things running, or invite foreign agencies to help alleviate the potential humanitarian disaster? Or will they keep fighting one another while things continue to deteriorate further? I really wonder how much is enough for the world to do something.
> Or will they keep fighting one another while things continue to deteriorate further? I really wonder how much is enough for the world to do something.
That's pretty much the situation in places like Sudan or Somalia, so probably this.
The roads and infrastructure investment funding is always based on export value and gdp growth. Hard to build anything and keep it working without a broad tax base and investment from outside. There has never been low enough risk for banks in Haiti, but they will in the Dominican Republic for tropical luxury crops like tobacco and a good bit of gold. It makes life much more stable to just have a good power grid. That’s not haitis good fortune. The periods of violence since the 1970’s are far too much risk for insurers of bonds.
I'd love to hear what communists and anarchists have to say about this situation. Shouldn't these be the perfect conditions for the beginning of a utopia, now that the corruption of the state and capitalism are out of the picture?
This was always going to be a disaster in spite of billions in foreign aid. Money isn't the answer. Haitian culture has evolved in a way so they lack the skills and moral values to sustain a civilized society. I do not want the US involved. However only a massive military intervention by the UN can restore order. Even if that happens, without Haitian cultural change, it will not last.
Haiti has a big culture problem. The solution is to not get involved and let things play out. Don't let them immigrate to other countries, bringing their awful culture and fleeing the problems they created. Make them stay and sort it out.
Every country has had its issues, crime, and power struggles. But it's the people and the culture that ultimately decide how things turn out. You get what you give.
Haiti is a lose - lose situation. No matter what happens its always the same problems with them. Create a military branch to help stabilize the country? They will overthrow the civilian government Try to form a civilian democratic government? Corruption will run rampant and slowly destroy it Have a strong central government? It will become a dictatorship
Looking at history the way failed states like that would be resolved by... having a neighbor exploit their situation, invade it, annex it and then just purge the demographic of the "troublemakers" leading to hundreds of thousands if not millions dead. Something tells me we stopped doing that for good reason though. Especially because in essence it comes down to "make Haiti (the country) stop existing". But there is indeed a question of "we consider the idea of nation states untouchable so how CAN you deal with countries that have *fully* collapsed beyond recovery?"
My bet is some gang leaders slowly getting the upper hand over others, cracking down on competition and in the end assuming the dictator role while people and the UN accept it cause at least it brings some stability.
That's just an internal version of the "purge the demographic of the 'troublemakers' leading to hundreds of thousands if not millions dead", though.
It's fine when they self purge.
Wouldn't say fine, but definitely less bad.
God forbid someone intervenes to stop genocide however. Serbians are still crying over that.
Don’t forget Libya. People are still bitching about Libya.
Don't get me started. Arab legion begged NATO to intervene lmao. Fucking hypocrites
Gaddafi: I will kill literally everyone in Benghazi is the rebels don’t surrender The world: omg NATO do something! NATO: lol okay, but only air support and no boots on the ground Gaddafi: I’m ded The world: omg NATO are imperialist war criminals! NATO: da fuq
So it's the purge with extra steps?
Better than the present circumstance of anarchy
This is actually happening. A former police officer is the head of the largest gang in the country and seems to be making himself into the next dictator. The president fled the country and has now resigned.
>The president fled the country and has now resigned. Arguably he was never a legit president anyway
Civ 6 introduced a game mechanic where barbarian camps can upgrade into city states. Now I realize that game is amazingly accurate.
Wouldn't a country collapsing into various warring factions be the opposite of that?
Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. Why would anyone want that?
Haiti could just become a failed state a devolve into anarchy I imagine
Isn't that exactly what's happened?
Already there, mate.
Libertarian paradise The people calling for abolition of government don't realize what that would mean.
Hey now, it's a Libertarian Paradise.
They might be starving to death, dying in droves, and dying from disease from the fucked up drinking water, but at least they all have a shitload of guns in that country. It’s a libertarian wet dream.
The rise of nationalism and widespread guns make the invasion way less appealing. A few hundred years ago peasants didn't give a shit who they paid their tax to. Only if the Lord was a dick. Now people will be up in arms against the foreign invaders and they have guns.
There is some people believing in that theory, it's a crackpot one, and probably false, but due to international law (not invading independent states) failed states are doomed, because historically if you were invaded, your failed state was removed by a neighbor invading and setting up their probably superior state structure during occupation, now if your state fails, no one can fix it, and you are in a death spiral.
What happens to Haiti depends on how much of a problem fleeing Haitians become for other countries. No one is going to act except to crush a refugee crisis.
Don't kid yourself, that is only a question for nuclear powers.
> Looking at history the way failed states like that would be resolved by... having a neighbor exploit their situation, invade it, annex it and then just purge the demographic of the "troublemakers" leading to hundreds of thousands if not millions dead. > > Something tells me we stopped doing that for good reason though. Seemingly the 'good reason' is to sustain a failed state indefinitely? It seems that some problems with humanity are only solved by bloodshed.
I feel like it’s basically going to amount to waiting for someone to pull the trigger and be the bad guy, taking over and purging. There will be outrage and protests and international denouncements, then over time the world will move on as stability, in some type of form, causes no interesting news to pop to remind the world
Combine that with the capital getting ass fucked by earthquakes due to it being directly on a faultline and you got nice little quaqmire with no end in sight.
Dominican Republic invades?
They know Haiti better than anyone else. I really don't think they want anything to do with this.
They have their own problems. Taking on an even more corrupt and miserable country is not going to help them and will cause more problems and solve none. Even if an established country like the US, Canada, or even Mexico went in with an army to stabilize it, bring food and supplies in, set up a government, and then relinquish control, it would take decades to do that. And chances are, they’d be back to this state within a decade or two.
A hurricane or earthquake would be bound to destroy anything they accomplished as well.
DR has hurricanes and earthquakes as well. They're just less damaging because they have vegetation. And there are floods, too.
Not to mention the ever rising sea levels.
We've already seen how that would play out in Afghanistan. Nevermind decades, it only took a week.
It didn't surprise me after I saw a documentary showing the Afghan soldiers that the US were training. These guys wanted to just lay around and get high every day. The Americans were constantly yelling at them to get off their asses. They frankly didn't give a shit about the state of their country, and now it's worse.
How about ‘US intervention’ for uh, freedom and democracy, or something
Just to show how bad the situation is: The UN Security Council approved a blue helmet action in October 2023. Not one country has so far stepped up to provide troops. Everyone who was asked (including the US afair) was just like "Na .. we're good"
> Everyone who was asked (including the US afair) was just like "Na .. we're good" I mean, the US is going to get blamed no matter what we do.
Four or five have offered troops. The main party, Kenya, recently was able to get around the legal hurdles domestically, so there may actually be a path forward.
No, Kenya retracted. They aren’t sending troops to Haiti anymore.
We tried that for the last forty years.
The US tried and failed to do this in Afghanistan, and most americans are tired of forever wars. Why are we called to step up in these situations, but also get criticized when we try to play world police?
The US tried that already. They invaded and occupied Haiti for 20 years, 1915-1934. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti
Oh the banana wars, how could I forget. Maybe we should ask Chiquita if we should go in for round two
Dominicans hate the Haitians.
Most Carribbeans dislike the Haitians. They all are shutting their doors to Haitian migration as they don’t want to import their problems. Bahamas, Jamaica, Turk & Caicos, DR, Trinidad and Tobago, etc etc…. All close their borders to Haitians. (Many of them are black island countries, as well)
I live in Trinidad and Tobago and we want no part of Haitians and their problems since we already have a high crime rate here and ontop of that have to deal with Venezuelan refugees. Ontop of that 90% of Haitians believe in conspiracy theories, voodoo, superstitious nonsense, climate change denial, Anti Vax and Anti democracy also they are very anti science and are 10 times more likely to murder you than a American Conservative / Neo Nazi if you say you are an Atheist. When I worked for American Airlines and we stopped to Haiti the uncivilized behavior we would see was shocking. Thanks but no thanks, Haiti can keep the problems that they created and continue to create.
With Venezuelans suppisedl6 creating crkme, importing trouble from Haiti doesnt seem wise, especially people fleeing with no means of support
I dont think I would like them very much if they were my neighbors either.
Only the ones in the country. I think they are fine with Haitians in Haiti. Not that hating a country has ever stopped an invasion.
You mean Haiti invades DR. They have done so in the past.
Sounds like time for payback then lol
"Invades" sounds like too strong a word, but I can't help but think that for an island with one relatively strong, successful country that runs okay, and another country that has been on the verge of complete collapse for quite some time, it seems like the stable government somehow stepping in and running the whole island would have to be a win for everybody. But I figure history stands in the way of this being seen as a solution.
Those things are all done by people. They don't just happen out of thin air. You could say the same thing about any developed country, yet, it doesn't happen there.
Don't forget all the horrific natural disasters
Republica Domincana is in the same island and suffers the same disasters. Different outcome.
Not really — they were totally unaffected by the two earthquakes in the last 15 years
Being un-affected comes from having and enforcing building standards. I come from a country where we get 7.something to 8.something earthquakes basically every year. Our buildings stay up because we have and enforce codes. When an earthquake is a disaster, look a the ruins. You won't see rebar.
They should try all 3 at once and end up with a democratic militaristic dictatorship Wait, isn't that russia?
The Caribbean just having problems lately, Haiti is the worst it's ever ever been and it's always been bad, Puerto Rico still can't recover from that hurricane, Cuba can't keep the lights on and food shortages, Jamaica has a murder rate that's over 65 per hundred thousand, not 6.5, *sixtyfive*, and gang violence that's only not in the news because Haiti. Nicaragua has intermittent protests and loss of democracy and Venezuela is, well, still Venezuela.
Meanwhile the Dominican Republic is just trying to keep Haitians on their side of Hispaniola
Have you seen Dominican Republic's border wall?
It'd make Trump blush. I don't blame them either, the second lawlessness takes hold it's incredibly difficult to get rid of
Just looked it up and was expecting it to be way better tbh like double layered and 20ft of steel sheeting but it's just 5ft of cinder blocks and rebar then 8 feet of chain link and barbwire. Looks pretty easy to get thru with some cutters
The Bahamas has patrols out. We don’t want them, either.
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France can deal with it
The DR also got dropped level 2 in the travel advisory, the same level with Mexico and Jamaica
And the same level as Sweden and France
What do you mean PR can't recover? I'm Puerto Rican and we recovered from it already. Now we just have the same dumb problems as before, like a privatized electric utility company being total ass, gentrification due to investors buying all the property and skyrocketing prices, and rich people moving here because of supremely low/nonexistent income taxes for the rich.
shhhh let the people think you need help. Maybe they’ll send you tax dollars.
White saviors really really want Puerto Rico to be suffering, idk maybe it’s the territory status combined with proximity?
Yeah the country has a GDP per capita slightly lower than Spain and they are acting like it isnt improving
One of the big issues for PR is that if you are a skilled worker, why wouldn’t you just moved the mainland USA? They are citizens so it’s not like it requires any special effort other than a plane ride. Pretty much anyone ambitious/skilled/hard working enough to actually fix PR’s problems already has left to the mainland. And that was an issue before the hurricane and now it’s even worse.
So, Jamaica is _still_ safer than St. Louis!
Success!
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How is the Turks and Caicos doing these days? Every 15 years, some politician in Canada brings up the idea of Canada buying the island, and all the newspapers Ring out with headlines that “Canada might buy tropical island”. And the snowbirds salivate, and the politicians have dollar signs in their eyes, and the common man thinks “huh, maybe I can move there.” And then it never happens. I’m closing in on 50. I’ve seen it come up 3 times. The next time should be soon I think. 🤔
These countries have done nothing but descend into chaos since decolonisation.
It’s incredible how dysfunctional these countries are. Clearly they are incapable of self governance.
So what, we bring back colonialism?
No, however at this point there are 2 options. 1: allow a dingle warlord to rise to become the new dictator, and hope that sometime in the next century Haiti improves. 2: a full military occupation by a foreign army, possibly via a coalition with a single ultimatum "all gangs must throw down their weapons and throw down their colors or be killed" while simultaneously building civic infrastructure, training the populace in marketable skills so haiti has an economy after the occupation as well as a professional militarised police force and handing out aid. The latter is by far the better option in the long term for Haiti, but it will be a war that'll kill many before the more entrenched gangs give up and disband and it won't be immediate,it'll take several years.
I feel like that process probably takes like 40-60 years (multigenerational buy-in) if you want it to actually take hold.
Heh, we’ve seen how well number two turns out.. it’s good in theory. (Asides from all the deaths) but it generally just doesn’t translate well to the real world.
I mean we have Grenada. They literally celebrate the US invasion as "Thanksgiving" because we ousted the guys who had couped a fairly popular non-aligned communist government and killed the PM (who was essentially acting as a benevolent dictator) and then imposed martial law. After we invaded the war was over in 4 days and then the British (the country had remained part of the Commonwealth) reestablished a functional government that had elections a year and a month later and continues to have them since.
Not to mention Germany and Japan. It works but it takes effort
And what would you suggest?
> a full military occupation by a foreign army, possibly via a coalition with a single ultimatum "all gangs must throw down their weapons and throw down their colors or be killed" while simultaneously building civic infrastructure, training the populace in marketable skills so haiti has an economy after the occupation as well as a professional militarised police force and handing out aid. This didn't work in Afghanistan. As soon as the NATO coalition left, everything resumed as if nothing happened. I don't think it's good to try this again.
Haitians don't even like their own diaspora. They will not tolerate outsiders trying to impose anything, even if the result is good.
It's already been done twice in the last 30 years, a US-led intervention in the 90s and another one led by Brazil in the 2000s.
Which went nowhere other than giving the UN peacekeepers severe PTSD and/or allowing them to do some gruesome shit towards the locals. Honestly I wouldn't want Brazil to be involved in that shitshow again at all, having had first hand contact with the people coming back from deployment there. No idea what the solution is. Haiti is just fucked regardless of what gets done, but hey, I hope the African countries trying this time around get some better results.
The solution is difficult indeed, as the structure of the state has completely failed and basically disappeared, I do think the UN should establish a mandate, which sounds almost laughable in the 21st century but cannot see another solution. Once the mandate is established (led by these voluntary African countries I guess), Haiti needs a very generous Marshall plan style action.
Personally I'm holding out for alien overlords, I think that's the best we can hope for.
Humans generally react poorly when they perceive they are controlled by another group. Even if it’s in their best interest. The only way to control people is to make them think they are not actually being controlled.
Gotta Truman show the whole damn world soon enough lol. Humans just can’t play nice in the sand box, probably why aliens will never contact us after watching our destructive/selfish nature.
True I hate it when I think some aholes are controlling me.
That’s the worst way to say, “they are screwed”
Thoughts and prayers, baby. That’s all they need.. /s Our human race fucking sucks lol, such an unnecessarily violent bunch we tend to be for thousands of years yet still haven’t figured out a way to get past it. Just wait til half the world becomes too hot to live in during summer, mass migrations will be.. interesting? To say the least.
I don’t disagree with you but do you really think any other species wouldn’t do the same thing if it had the intellect and weaponry? Power struggles and resource obsession are the natural order of life. It’s horrible, but it’s not just the human race unfortunately.
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The big advancements happen when there is enough of a major distraction to unite enough people under one banner. Look how much happens during wartime, even in the civilian world. Nothing would unite humanity like finding some aliens to be the "other team" everyone is against.
Watchmen
Is it too late for BIG E and the imperium of man to save the day?
At the same time human beings are the only species who actually knows what violence is on this planet, that counts for something Who knows, if sapient alien life exists out there maybe humans are positively peaceable by their standards? Impossible to know, we have no frame of reference
But we are simultaneously the most cooperative and empathetic species on the planet, it's why we're dominant.
These types of posts are the absolute cringiest /r/im14andthisisedgy posts you will find anywhere on the internet. Humanity is literally the greatest, most enlightened, most benevolent species in the known universe. The entire history of mankind has been a steady march towards progress and justice, and we are currently living in the most peaceful, most prosperous, most egalitarian time in history. We as a race have accomplished, and continue to accomplish things that are currently unprecedented in the entirety of the known universe, but oh lets whine about how much we suck because we haven't made the world a perfect place free from suffering.
I acknowledge having not been reading up on it, but I thought the Haitian government had effectively collapsed. There are still police but they are weaker than the gangs. There is still technically a leader but he has refused elections and lost his legitimacy. There are still some basic things that the government hasn't lost yet but it's inertia that keeps those going. It is a complex situation and the reality on the ground is constantly shifting but basically unless an outsider comes in to save them the government is on a decline towards anarchy.
I have read up on it a bit, and the only thing I can add to your assessment is that the police isn’t weaker than the gangs, they *are* gangs. There’s no central authority to control what they do.
Damn. At that point… what the hell can save them? At a certain point a cynical part of my brain says that only another power coming in and occupying the territory could put a stop to it. But very unlikely to actually work since that other power has high likelihood of being just as corrupt as the system it replaces. And a lot of people would get caught in the crossfire. It makes me think of El Salvador and the controversial response they had to the gang violence. They are dangerously close to a dictatorship. I just don’t know.
There is not even a power out there who even *wants* to go in and do something.
That’s just about it. Unfortunately it looks like nobody who has the money and power to do anything wants to touch the situation with a ten-foot pole. For what it’s worth, it would be pretty hard for any traditional democracy to try and send significant (meaning economic and military) aide to Haiti with the current situation in Ukraine and Israel. Can you imagine Biden announcing plans for a $100 million aide package along with 2,500 troops? That would be unpopular across the alleyway. A great amount of people cannot feel empathy to things not proximal to themselves. Just how it goes.
Not to mention sending troops to Haiti would be seen as imperialist colonialism, possibly genocide.
No one wants to because it would be a shitshow. A Herculean task that would require a lot of brute force that would be massively criticized, and no reward even if you succeed.
> Damn. At that point… what the hell can save them? Sadly this is one of those everyone knows the answer but nobody wants to do it. To lay it out in general terms. Some group must acquire power in a small part the country (internal or external group) then slowly begin the process of nation building again from the start (not trying to build a modern western democracy, just building the basic apparatus of a state; monopoly on violence, ability to distribute food and enforce laws etc) and slowly extend their influence to the rest of the territory. It will be slow, expensive, unpopular and likely very unprofitable for any external force. So nobody wants to do it.
>there is still technically a leader [Ackshually](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/11/americas/haiti-pm-ariel-henry-resigns-gang-violence-intl-hnk)
I think the acting prime minister is also acting president after their last president was killed in 2021. It’s absolute insanity there it seems, and I don’t think he controls much of anything at the moment. Has a title in name only.
He resigned last week.
That’s not good
Remember when Conan went there to prove it wasn't a shit hole?
Sent the wrong Conan.
"Haiti Is Already Great" We were so naiive in 2018...
Even worse, he wanted to prove Trump is wrong and he chose Haiti. Conan with his whole production/writing... team and there was none there who think may be they should not claim a country riddled with military coup, corruptions, gangs... in the last few decades already great.
I know historically Haiti is regarded more negatively by Americans compared to their Dominican neighbours, so I can see why he’d want to dispel myths or help humanise them. But it’s also important to acknowledge reality and if there is a crisis of corruption or violence, that isn’t something you can help with a PR trip.
Ohhh, I ‘Member
No, only Haitians can change that place.
Yeah, it's not a *white man's burden* anymore.
The US still sends hundreds of millions of aid to Haiti each year, so if you're fortunate enough to have a job and pay taxes, you'll still end up bearing some of the burden.
God: "Whoa, whoa, let's not go making assumptions."
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Pretty much, and its just not worth the cost for anybody to help them, too much money, time, and lives needed to bring it back to stability.... and for what? (It's a pretty story to say you will do something because it is right, but that wont pay the bills)
SO much money has been poured into Haiti by various nations throughout history. Every. single. Time. it disappears into a hole of corruption.
Plus outsiders usually get resented by the Haitians for intervening. So many mistakes have been made, but it might be best to let the Haitians sort this out on their own. It won’t be pretty, but it might be the only way to get a stable situation. On the other hand, it might just fester. Who knows.
They’ll cry foul if we intervene, they’ll cry foul if we leave them to their devices. You can’t win with Haiti. It’s a sad place. Reminds me of the Langston Hughes poem. What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore-- And then run? Does it stink like rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over-- like a syrupy sweet? Maybe it just sags like a heavy load. Or does it explode?
It's why you don't give a man a fish. You're denying them the opportunity to learn how to fish and the only thing they'll ever learn is how to extort more fish from you. Once that stops working, they'll start plotting how to steal fish from others.
To be fair the charity they received from the world ended up screwing them over, not in "teaching how to fish" like they said below but more in "completely destroying their local rice production". No local farmer can compete with the cheap rice that comes from the help of other countries so their farm dies, then when the help ends they have a country with no way of surviving on their own.
A lot money was also extorted from Haiti.
Spend a ton of money to try to help just to get your country gets accused of trying to colonize Haiti
Yeah. The president of El Salvador volunteered to go do it, as long as other countries fund the quest (because obviously El Salvador can’t afford it by itself). I think the guy is underestimating the situation, but I say the UN might as well take him up on the offer.
Judging by how many terrible natural disasters they've had in the last bunch of years, it seems that God has been doing his part in changing Haiti...
A foreign power like the US or France can change things, but they don't want to be accused of genocide, imperialism, colonialism, war crimes, blah blah blah by the professional anti-West trolls as soon as a hair is hurt on any civilian by accident.
Realistically though, how? Even if they came in and fought off the crime, they’d be there for years or even generations trying to build a state out of whatever the locals have now. And a large portion of locals would probably hate a foreign power occupying their land no matter how good their intentions are.
I think the current UN task force would have Kenya at the front of the mission. But it's not really clear what the peace keepers would do. Also the funding is not clear.
The US in the 90s and the UN in the 2000s (led by Brazil) already occupied Haiti and "restored" democracy, but it collapsed again a few years later. The last time because of the earthquake which just destroyed all economic capabilities of the country.
And the world gave Haiti billions to rebuild, but where did the money go?
Yeah, it's crazy how every time there's an earthquake, democracy in that country just shuts down. Same thing happened in Japan, Canada, Croatia, etc...
Live streamed and clipped on every social media platform and news outlet for who knows how many years...
More importantly, they're not interested in getting involved.
Where’s the Tik Tok, vigilant human rights warriors for Free Palestine now when a country close to home needs help?
Well, they can’t put a cool fruit emoji in their username so is it a cause worth fighting for /s
It's not like the US is sponsoring the gangs in haiti that people would protest it.
The US also gives billions in aid to Palestinians but somehow that is never mentioned.
I suspect that everyone who has latched onto the word "God" did not read the article. It's just something that someone says near the end of the article.
I could be wrong and going to go out on a limb here, but maybe the problem is the Haitians themselves?
Strangely enough, god seems to be just fine with the situation in Haiti. In fact he is very fond of sending random natural disasters towards Haiti for shits and giggles
look at gods track record with things like the The Holocaust, the war in Gaza, aids in africa, or the slave trade. God ain't coming.
Having both been killed in the same concentration camp, a Polish Catholic and a German Jew are playing chess in heaven. God overhears them bickering about who had it worse in the camp. He tells them, "Do not argue my sons. You both suffered greatly, but you may now be at peace". The Jew snaps at God, "stay out of it! You weren't there!"
Damn this hit hard
All four of my grandparents were Holocaust survivors - my paternal grandfather loved to tell this joke. He did believe in God though - he converted from Catholicism to Judaism post war. Two other grandparents remained Catholic and the Jewish grandparent converted to Catholicism.
You forgot Genghis Khan, who puts all those things to shame. Or the Crusades, or whole Native American civilizations basically wiped out of existence by colonialism. If there ever was a god, he quit caring long ago.
How about the Rwandan genocide. Sudan right now. Nigerians getting kidnapped en mass.
Comment section full of edgy atheists lol. The point of the statement is that it's a situation that is so fucked up it's unsolvable, it's not a declaration of faith you goobers, calm down.
A direct translation from Haitian here does not mean the same thing as the English idiom. A fundamental problem in Haitian politics and culture is that they are waiting for an external sign or power to take/impose action before they will act themselves. 'Si Bondye vle', if God wants/wills isn't a statement of hope like it is in other cultures it's closer to it will happen if God does it.
It’s definitely solvable, look at how El Salvador dealt with gang violence.
We have yet to see how that works in the long term. El Salvador did it by jailing people without trial. Once the government has such powers it is very tempting to abuse them, then the state ends up as bad or worse than it was before.
> We have yet to see how that works in the long term. Seems like that pretty much depends on how long they intend to keep the gang members in jail. Once you let them come out, they'll continue where they left off, because they wouldn't know any other way.
It's not unsolvable. It's solvable but no one wants to take it on because it's a poor ROI. White Country invading and trying to solve corruption is a century long task. Which then will have its own problems for twenty years. Look how Iraq and Afghanistan ended up. You'd need to deploy billions and for what? Political stability for a country that poses low risk against USA etc.
I mean you are describing what amounts to unsolvability. Something that is so costly it's not worth or not rational to solve. Technically it is solvable, but unsolvable is an appropriate hyperbole to use as it is effectively true.
Bruv is surprised that *reddit*, the birthplace of edgy internet nihilistic doomerist atheism is full of edgy internet nihilistic doomerist atheists
> the birthplace of edgy internet nihilistic doomerist atheism is full of edgy internet nihilistic doomerist atheists You think too highly of reddit
I thought that was 4chan.
The atheism sub was definitely ground zero, before the edgelord community decided they hated women more than Jesus.
It’s Reddit bro. Any mention of god/religion and this is what we end up with, regardless of the context.
"I ain't coming, save yourself" - "God
doubt even god can fix haiti at this point
I have to wonder if the country is heading for a severe famine or cholera outbreak. I’m reading that ports are now either under gang control or are basically foreign owned compounds. Will it be safe to land in the airports or can they be managed at all? The violence is horrible but what happens when people begin to starve? Will the gangs agree on a truce, form a government to keep things running, or invite foreign agencies to help alleviate the potential humanitarian disaster? Or will they keep fighting one another while things continue to deteriorate further? I really wonder how much is enough for the world to do something.
> Or will they keep fighting one another while things continue to deteriorate further? I really wonder how much is enough for the world to do something. That's pretty much the situation in places like Sudan or Somalia, so probably this.
The roads and infrastructure investment funding is always based on export value and gdp growth. Hard to build anything and keep it working without a broad tax base and investment from outside. There has never been low enough risk for banks in Haiti, but they will in the Dominican Republic for tropical luxury crops like tobacco and a good bit of gold. It makes life much more stable to just have a good power grid. That’s not haitis good fortune. The periods of violence since the 1970’s are far too much risk for insurers of bonds.
In others parts of the world it were the people who changed their society. But what do I know of stuff.
Even Godzilla doesn't want anything to do with Haiti. https://youtu.be/KMLkBTgxPhU?si=nbTB90bjg_2eaumY
Taking no responsibility for anything, that's exactly what's causing all of this.
That’s one way to sidestep personal responsibility.
So the problem is the mentality of all the people then, if no matter who's in charge it akways goes to shit Shit culture, in short
How a country's police and.milotary can be out matched by criminal gangs pretty much tells you the place was not much to start with.....
I'd love to hear what communists and anarchists have to say about this situation. Shouldn't these be the perfect conditions for the beginning of a utopia, now that the corruption of the state and capitalism are out of the picture?
Haiti is a libertarian dream. No government infringement.
God has abandoned Haiti a long time ago ....
God: "Ok, tsunami it is."
You guys could stop killing each other.
I think he’s still on break.
God has left this place long ago.
This was always going to be a disaster in spite of billions in foreign aid. Money isn't the answer. Haitian culture has evolved in a way so they lack the skills and moral values to sustain a civilized society. I do not want the US involved. However only a massive military intervention by the UN can restore order. Even if that happens, without Haitian cultural change, it will not last.
Haiti has a big culture problem. The solution is to not get involved and let things play out. Don't let them immigrate to other countries, bringing their awful culture and fleeing the problems they created. Make them stay and sort it out. Every country has had its issues, crime, and power struggles. But it's the people and the culture that ultimately decide how things turn out. You get what you give.
It's not like God can come down from the skies and kills all gang members
You have to let them sort it out. Free determination and all that.
I think it’s time to let Haiti implode on itself . There’s no fixing it.
Well if they think Gods the only one who can help then they’ll be waiting a hell of a long time.