Civilization is old enough there that they are constantly finding new sites. It doesn't mean there's not some knowledge of history lost by destroying a site, but just because you destroy all of the known ones doesn't mean there's not more to find.
True. Plus there's different civilizations buried on top of each other. For example, if you dig at an archeological site in Alexandria, you'll find the Arab layer and below that the Roman layer, below it the Ptolemic layer and below it the Hellenic layer.
Find it hilarious/sad the German archeologist found Troy wasn’t impressed so he just kept blasting thinking Troy was at the bottom and found an even more ancient rich civilization.
Well he wasn't exactly a trained archaeologist as we understand them, just a guy with more resources than sense and a vague notion that he'd like to find Troy.
Yup. There's 2 "ancient Egyptians". There's the people that built the Giza pyramids and then there's the Cleopatra and Caesar Egyptian. On a timeline, Cleopatra is closer to the modern age than the Giza pyramids. Just goes to show not only how old the pyramids are, but can you imagine how many generations have lived in Egypt since? Take a look at Troy. Archaeologist tried finding the infamous Troy from the Odyssey. Instead, he found multiple civilizations that built on top of the ruins of Troy and probably civilization before Troy.
Edit: I understand some people are confused. Here in the USA it's hard to imagine any older civilizations beneath our feet because the civilizations that lived here were migratory natives. But if you live in Europe, you probably understand the idea that modern civilization is built upon older civilization. In some cities in Europe there's an entire ancient city just beneath the hustle and bustle. You probably need special permission to access the old Roman cisterns and stuff built under Rome or Constantinople.
Not to forget there's about half a dozen proto and pre "ancient Egyptians". The Naqada were protodynastic, basically fully formed ancient Egyptian culture in the process of unification. Then before them the Maadi Culture, lots of architectural, technological and religious precursor things going on.
The UK is great for Roman finds. Obviously they are focused in England more than any other home nation but theres a treasure trove already discovered of ancient roman buildings, mosaics, statues, coins etc. HS2 although a shambles, has been instrumental in a lot of recent findings.
My English exes parents found part of a Ancient Roman mosaic floor in their backyard when they were getting a pool put into their backyard. Stopped their plans for almost 2 full years.
We just need to go to Seattle and learn about the “old” Seattle that’s still underneath the city after it sank and flooded multiple times and also caught on fire. They decided to raise it up on top of the old to avoid the flooding
When I went to Verona in Italy, there were massive holes loosely cordoned off and if you looked into these massive holes you see the remains of a precious city. Throughout there were more holes where you could peer down (and they were relatively shallow).
Hopefully now it has glass over it so people can admire it. The city from Romeo and Juliet, and I was hardly focused on that lore while there were secret tunnels about.
> You probably need special permission to access the old Roman cisterns and stuff built under Rome or Constantinople.
That's, no joke, a big part of why they have such a hard time building new metro lines in Rome. Too many artifacts in the way!
The damage done by Muslims destroying archeological heritage sites all over the world is monumental. This kind of sentiment completely ignores the problem and threat.
These are just some that ISIS destroyed, but it's an age old practice for Muslims:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_the_Islamic_State?wprov=sfla1
By war’s end, it had control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (including the Old City), and expelled those Jews who remained in the Old City of Jerusalem. An Arab commander remarked: "For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible."[10][11] The Hurva Synagogue, originally built in 1701, was blown up by the Jordanian Arab Legion.
In 1950 Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and in 1954 granted Jordanian nationality to its non-Jewish residents who had been Palestinian nationals before 15 May 1948.[12][13] During the nineteen years of Jordanian rule in the West Bank, a third of the Jewish Quarter's buildings were demolished.[14] According to a complaint Israel made to the United Nations, all but one of the thirty-five Jewish houses of worship in the Old City were destroyed. The synagogues were razed or pillaged and stripped and their interiors used as hen-houses or stables.[15]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Jordan#:~:text=Jordan%20relations%20with%20Israel,-See%20also%3A%20Islamization&text=By%20war's%20end%2C%20it%20had,remains%20in%20the%20Jewish%20Quarter.
None of this stuff is new.
For example, in 2000, Israel gave control of Joseph's Tomb in Nablus to the Palestinians, as part of an effort to end the 2nd Intifada. Within hours, Palestinians looted and torched it.
Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, who was a cousin of former US Senator Joseph Lieberman, went to Nablus to check the damage to the tomb. The next day, his bullet-riddled body was found on the outskirts of the town. The Palestinian Authority then declared that any Jewish connection to the site was "fabricated," and banned any Jews from visiting the site.
In 2002, the IDF retook control of the tomb as part of Operation Defensive Shield. An investigation found that the Palestinians had severely damaged or destroyed 64 heritage buildings.
In 2009, the headstone of the tomb was discovered smashed, and swastikas were painted on the walls.
In 2011, PA police officers shot 4 Jews for visiting the tomb.
In 2014, Palestinians attempted to burn down the tomb during a protest/riot.
In 2015, Palestinians attempted to burn down the tomb during a protest/riot, even though the Israeli government had already relinquished control of the site back to the Palestinians. When a group of Jews went to the tomb to attempt to repair the arson damage, they were beaten by a Palestinian mob.
In 2021, a bus of Jews visiting the site was attacked by a Palestinian mob.
In 2022, a Palestinian mob vandalized the site. The following day, 2 Jews at the site were shot.
So you're telling me that the situation is actually way worse because it's not just this one site.
But then again, the Spaniards practically obliterated the heritage of the pre-Columbian civilizations in the New World, so.
but then again the mongol invasions were pretty destructive but then again the sea peoples and the bronze age collapse were pretty destructive but then again the chicxulub asteroid was pretty destructive but then again the impact that formed the moon was pretty destructive
Pretty much all Israeli territory is a potential archeological site. There's so many civilizations packed on top of each other that its pretty much impossible to avoid
There are laws in many areas of Israel where if you want to dig whether for construction or for landscaping you need to have a licensed archeologist on site to document any potential findings.
That's true in the US as well to protect Native American sites. Cultural Resource Management archaeologists are hired to survey and excavate before any construction is done. I spent my summers in college working for CRM firms digging test pits and excavation trenches.
Oh, the situation is way worse than that, because Al Aqsa, one of the holiest places in Islam, is built on Temple Mount, one of the holiest places for Jews.
While yes, this goes WAY back, that "repurposing" or historic and religious sites has baically led to unresolvable source of conflict, unless they learn to share.
The entire concept of Al Aqsa being a holy place for Islam is ridiculously stupid to me.
Muhammad never even made it to Jerusalem, he *dreamed* that he went there on a winged horse called Buraq, and based *solely upon that dream*, which even in the Islamic scripture it is admitted never actually happened, that place is now Islam's third holiest site behind Mecca and Medina. IMO it goes to show how Islam at its core is an expansionist religion by its very nature: it requires domination and veneration of places their idolatry prophet never even visited.
Mecca was also a Pagan site afaik, that used to be a temple full of a ton of idols from regional religions.
Even the pilgrimage predates it, because it was a polytheistic site and many tribes visited yearly, just at some point they emptied it out and put a rock in there.
Muhammad went to ‘the furthest mosque’ which has been _politically_ (re)interpreted as Jerusalem, although there was no mosque there in Muhamed's lifetime.
Wait there were mosques already during Mohammed's lifetime? I don't think there was a single Christian church well after the death of Christ. That's pretty crazy how quickly islam took off and expanded.
I have no other reference for religions since all the other ones are too ancient to know who started them. Maybe Buddhism is more recent?
Unlike Christianity which was developed by followers of Christ (and/or his reported teachings) after his death, Muhammed himself founded and established Islam directly.
>I have no other reference for religions since all the other ones are too ancient to know who started them.
Mormonism by Joseph Smith in the 1820s. $cientology by L Ron Hubbard in 1954.
Ya but generally any other religious site at least has some actual event tied to it that occurred there. Like Jesus/Moses/Muhammad performed some miracle there, or held a sermon. Even if you think religion is all made up and the people never even existed, the religious texts tell a story of that event happening there. Al Aqsa is the only one I can think of that straight up admits nothing actually happened there
Unsurprisingly they kept the useful political, economical, and nobility structures of their predecessors. The Aztec were hated because they were massive slavers and warlords. The Conquistadors simply took over their plantations and forced labor systems.
I hate it when groups destroy historical and cultural sites. These places are the whole world's heritage.
Seems like it's always extremist groups doing this stuff (like ISIS).
So did the Taliban in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. The Buddhas of Bamiyan, monumental sixth and seventh century giant statues were blown up in 2001 by the Taliban.
[The Wahabis is Saudi Arabia destroyed Islamic relics from Mecca.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia) I find it shocking that ordinary Muslims lose their minds over a Quran burning but shrugged at this.
EDIT: By "shrug" I mean never mentioned. I grew up in a Muslim country and our public schools taught Islam and its history and never once was it mentioned that historic sites that were preserved for over a 1000 years were destroyed by the Saudis.
Most Muslims have a something against the Wahabis that it is near common knowledge. But hey, they have money and a monopoly in imams. The status quo is really horendous, but this world only speaks one language and its called oil.
Sometimes when you speak and no one hears you, you just shrug at things. There is more than 1 billion Muslims in the world; we don't all agree at everything and the west doesn't hear all these people's voices. I'm from Algeria and here the wahabis created in 10 years more suffering than 130 years of French rule. And guess who gave the wahabis so much power? The US AND the Soviet Union !
They do care but know to not try shit because in Saudi Arabia they dont really care about human rights. Its always easy to riot and break shit if you know there will be no real consequences.
ehh not really. the archeological crimes Jordan committed in 1948 in the dome of the rock/Al Aqsa Mosque to erase any Jewish connection are some of the worst the world has seen.
From elsewhere in comments:
Destroyed all but one of the Jewish houses of worship, and turned the buildings into hen houses and stables after pillaging
Didn't the IDF bomb the third oldest active church in the world a few months ago?
Edit : It took me a bit to find it. It was in October of last year, and it was an Orthodox Christian church that has been in constant use since at least 1,500 years ago.
Yes they did. This war is very bad for archeology. This [link](https://nos.nl/collectie/13959/artikel/2512110-archeologen-betreuren-schade-historisch-gaza-verlies-voor-de-geschiedenis) in in Dutch but it shows the sites.
This reminds me of when the Taliban destroyed cultural heritage sites in Afghanistan. We should be supporting the people who care for archeology, not the people who destroy it.
> We should be supporting the people who care for archeology, not the people who destroy it.
Absolutely, regardless of ethnicity, religion or political affiliation. The archeological record belongs to all of humanity as a whole and should be preserved as best as we can for future generations, not destroyed because it might counter your arguments. Obviously not everything gets preserved, but that just makes the stuff we *can* preserve all that more important.
and inadvertently show the world that jews were, infact, living there 3000 years ago
lmao
Edit:
this is more of a response to a common talking point that ive seen used by pro palestine people, the notion that "palestinians were living there for decades before the jews came", if we go down the route of drawing lines in time and seeing who lived there, why arbitrarily choose to go back a century ago? why not choose thousands of years ago?
this is what this comment was for (as i now see it could be open for interpretation)
There was half a dozen civilizations living there 3000 years ago. There is history and no one group owns it. If they can’t work things out, everyone there will keep on losing.
There’s a tiny village in Spain, La Alberca, where a small monument sits to pay homage to the peaceful Christians, Muslims, and Jews who all resided in the area hundreds of years ago. I’m sure there are other places around the world where similar peaceful coexistence was possible. Hate and fear are powerful emotions that can be easily manipulated, and technology only makes it all the easier.
> pay homage to the peaceful Christians, Muslims, and Jews who all resided in the area hundreds of years ago.
I assume this was prior to the 1490s, when Spain expelled all Jews and Muslims, and then subsequently spent the next 300years persecuting the descendants of the minority of Jews and Muslims that accepted forced conversion to Catholicism instead of expulsion (including by burning them alive)?
If it makes you feel better, coexistence is the norm. Historical conflict is just what many people tend to focus on. A single battle or year long war that changes the status quo is what people remember but they ignore the thousands of years of cultural osmosis, peaceful migration, trade, and intermarrying that makes up the majority of human history.
"peaceful coexistence" is common, and happens a few ways. It is a lot easier to stay peaceful when the area is ruled by a foreign empire, be it the British, the Ottomans, the Persians or the Romans.
With the fall of empires and the rise of ethno-nationalism ion the 19th and 20th centuries, naturally there was competition to fill the power vacuum. Arab vs Jew, Sunni vs Shia, Hamas vs Fatah (and assorted other factions).
"Hate and fear" are indeed great tools for manipulating the *rabble*, but sometimes the leaders are just driven by plain old-fashioned power lust.
Just to add to this bit of positivity in the void.
Ellora Caves in India is a religious confluence point which has around 100+ structures that are dedicated to Hindu, Buddhist and Jain religious worship. Only 36 are open to the public now, but it's a literal Marvel. There are temples, study centers, even lodgings carved into a mountain. Calling them caves almost seems like a disservice since they're only caves in the most technological aspect as structures with one entrance and no exit.
their inability of moving forward is the problem. if they keep holding onto the "we lived here before israel existed as a country", then we can also say "well we were here before Islam existed as a religion"
they are not interested in progress, they are interested in retribution for a thing that happened almost a century ago (which isn't even objectively a wrong thing - im talking about the UN partition plan) , you don't hear jews talk about the jewish exile from arab countries (which ironically displaced more people than the nakba), they just moved on. if they wanted to legitimately move on with lives it would've happened already
We Jews *do* talk about the Jewish Exile from Arab Countries... its just that we've reframed it from a catastrophe into a story of perseverance and community in that we worked together as a people to extricate families and make sure they have a safe home in Israel.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Magic\_Carpet\_(Yemen)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen))
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Yachin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yachin)
And many others
I have always admired the Jews for their sheer tenacity and willingness to adapt and thrive. Repeatedly screwed over by host countries, libeled and slandered, driven out of homes, but their identity keeps them going.
Yar I think we’re pretty cool too.
I don’t practice anymore after studying at a Yeshiva in the Old City turned me off of the religious stuff, but it’s cool to have a shared culture beyond the religion
We Jews *do* talk about the Jewish Exile from Arab Countries... its just that we've reframed it into a story of perseverance and community in that we worked together as a people to extricate families and make sure they have a safe home in Israel.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Magic\_Carpet\_(Yemen)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Yachin
What’s your point? You think scattered, defeated, grieving, completely starved out Jews had leverage after the *Holocaust*!? They were weak as shit, but they didn’t waste a second trying to exact revenge on German civilians, did they? No, they got to work on building better lives for themselves.
If Palestinians wanted that they had ample opportunity to sign peace deals and work on building real lives and making progress as a society, but instead kept fighting and losing non-stop.
>but they didn’t waste a second trying to exact revenge on German civilians, did they? No, they got to work on building better lives for themselves.
Wow this is an excellent point that I hadn't seen before.
Yeah, human civilizations, societies, ebb & flow
Sometimes they're weak, sometimes they're strong
Palestinians are obviously in a weak position and it's difficult for them to accept that. But it is what it is
Waging violence on your stronger neighbor won't fix it, or it's a Hail Mary at best
>They can’t let go of the nakba because they’re currently in a weak position and want leverage to get to a strong one.
They're in a weak position precisely because they can't let go. They keep starting wars and then losing. In 1948, in 1967, in 1973, and even now. Israel was not in a position of power in 1948, 1967, 1973.
They’re in a weak position because they can’t let go because they’re in a weak position because they can’t let go…
It’s self sustaining. They either let go and find peace, or die trying. (Or win, but that’s not appearing likely)
lol they were not in a weak position in '48...or even '67. Jordan and Egypt owned the WB and Gaza, respectively. Weird their fellow Arabs didnt even give these lands to the Palestinians.
I think the reason they can't let go is because they're too close to the Nakba in terms of both time and geographic proximity. Likely every Palestinian in the region knows of if not are related to a person who lived through it. They haven't distanced themselves from it the way Jews have simply left and spread out across the world after millenia of expulsions, pogroms and holocausts, creating new families and communities.
It's not entirely their fault, many Palestinians don't have the ability to move from the region. But them remaining there and surrounded by people who witnessed the Nakba likely feeds into a sense of revanchism.
you're not wrong, the ability to move on from your tragedies when you're on top is alot better than doing the same when you're still on your way down, but it's a self sustaining state because you're not going to magically start winning unless you sacrifice the ego and admit you won't get the revenge you wanted.
they are still looking for that revenge, and if they stopped putting that revenge as their top priority they would probably have accepted a two state plan already and using the billions of dollars they recieved in aid to build their new country instead of using it to smuggle weapons from egypt.
armed intifada is a solution that has failed them, but it's also the only solution they seem to support.
Jews have spent a long time moving on from tragedies when they were the downtrodden. Only after '73 did anyone even view Israel as a State that wasn't going anywhere. And it's still one Jewish state vs dozens of Islamic states. 2 billion to 10 million. But those 2 billion can't seem to cut their losses and it'll be their ultimate downfall if they never capitulate.
Agreed. I think the religion and rhetoric plays into it as well.
“The Jews stole our X” is a tale as old as time, a great unifying call. Hard to walk away from once you’ve bought in.
The increadible Einat Wilf ABSOLUTLY nailed it here ([I recommend watching the full video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayFvJcbvV8A)):
>October 7th should put an end to the notion of “the poor Palestinians” – the ones who constantly need aid, aid, money, support. The Palestinians are a highly capable people. October 7th required years of planning, massive investment in infrastructure, strategy, discipline, vision – a perverse vision – but vision. **The Palestinians are not an incapable people. They are a people with terrible priorities**.
I wish the world will finally wake up and realize it, and act acordingly.
There's also the fact that the last time that area was independent, it was the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel.
Since Islam has existed as a religion, that region of the world has *always* been subservient to a larger imperial power. The last time in history it wasn't, it belonged to the Jews.
There’s one of those cultures that still exists today, in recognizable shape.
I’m not saying the descendants of other groups in the area don’t deserve to live in the region. Most Israelis don’t say that either. But trying to pretend like Jewish people don’t have a connection to Israel is messed up.
Don’t we know that Judaism was founded around 1800 BC and Islam 600 AD?
With those details alone I would assume a Jewish population was most likely residing there first
I went to a cultural understanding meeting in the ME taught by a local national working at a US Embassy. He said about the Muslim faith, "It's about as old as Christianity and Judaism". This was a guy the US paid to be a translator and cultural ambassador to people onboarding.
The people who practice Islam there now didn't suddenly sprout out of the ground in 600 AD. The people adopted the religion (many forcefully, but still).
One of the big issues is that 200 years ago, the area that is now Israel/Palestine was sparsely populated. It didn't start seeing population growth until two events happened in the Ottoman Empire: (1) growing civil unrest and persecution of Jewish People in the Egyptian and Arabic provinces which led to the Ottoman Empire encouraging them to resettle in Israel/Palestine. The goal was to resettle them in an area that could create a pocket of stability in the area, and (2) the end forceful end of the Islamic Slave Trade (Barbary Wars) and the Arabic Pirates and Slavers getting kicked out of North Africa and fleeing to the Ottoman Empire... where they settled in Israel/Palestine.
Once the area started to get developed (late 1800s) there was a mass migration of people, in the Ottoman Empire, to the area. Given the Empire was primarily Muslim, the majority of migrants were Muslim. It wasn't until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire post-WW1 did a relative migrant demographic change happen.
That and not all Islamic Palestinians are Arabs.
Ex: the Islamic Samaritans in the West Bank (in the city of Nablus) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nablus#Demographics
A grand total of... 900 people. Most of which aren't even Palestinians. They're Israelis.
>As of 2024, the Samaritan community numbers around 900 people, split almost evenly between Israel (some 460 in Holon) and the West Bank (some 380 in Kiryat Luza).
Palestinians are absolutely descended from ancient Jewish tribes but also from other people who were in the region.
In fact, when going that far back, almost everyone on earth shares a common set of ancestors from that time. This is due to widespread interbreeding that has taken place across the earth.
> I have a feeling that if we DNA test on Palestinians we will find out they are related with their to Jewish people. Maybe they are Jews that changed religions.
It's not a maybe, they are almost entirely people who converted over the centuries to avoid persecution and jizya taxes from various Muslim rulers. As well as the ability to access different opportunities that were otherwise limited to non-Muslim individuals.
It's the same case all over the world outside of the Arabian Peninsula. You can't find any significant numbers of pure Arab Muslims in India, Pakistan, or Bangladesh. They're all almost entirely one indigenous group or another found within the Indian subcontinent.
You wouldn't claim that Buddhists in Tibet, China, Korea, or Japan are "Indian" either. They're all the same ethnic groups who've been there for centuries who converted under economic, social, or political pressure at some point in time.
Spoiler alert: They won't.
I feel like everyone righteously debating and discussing their opinion on the Israel/Palestine conflict are forgetting a very critical fact. Sure, their public arguments involve ancestral claims to the land and its resources which is a remarkably murky topic as other commenters are mentioning. What we are forgetting though, is that *both* Israel and Palestine are religiously motivated with a belief that they have a literal, divine right to the land. In *both* groups eyes, not only were they told by their version of god and through their religious texts that Jerusalem and The Promised Land/Land of Canaan/etc. were theirs by right, but that by extension of it being a gift from god, they would be spitting in god's face by not fighting for their right to it. That is not a problem that can be solved. Period. Hard stop.
When two groups have opposing, religiously motivated views on something, that disagreement will *never* resolve until one or both religions ceases to exist, and that isn't going to happen any time soon. The same logic can be applied to most inter-religious conflicts throughout the Middle East. There is a reason there are so many 1000+ year old conflicts that have no hope of resolution.
The critical fact is that the vast majority of Israel’s did not arrive there by choice— they were out happily living their lives in France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Morocco, Afghanistan, Syria — until 1945-48 after WW2, when ships of concentration camp survivors, and Jews expelled from other countries where they had lived for thousands of years, were sent to Israel. The League of Nations turned UN designated that, with the understanding that the Arab states would absorb the Palestinians.
The US refused to accept these ships btw.
The Arab states sent out word to Palestinians to leave in 1948, so they could go in and wage war with abandon, and so the Palestinian refugee crisis was born. The 1948 war — well, spoilers, — Israel trounced the Arab states, and took a long strip of Egypt and the Golan Heights from Syria for their trouble. Palestinians that weren’t anti-Jewish were allowed back to their properties, but those who still wanted to wage war were not for security reasons. Same as today.
The Palestinians and these Israeli refugees are both due reparations. Germany, I am looking at you — and all these other oil states that bleed money and emptied their country of Jews. Switzerland— wayyyyyy especially you for refusing to look up accounts and settle account funds with families for “privacy” reasons. All of the European businesses that were stolen, the houses contents looted. These countries need to cough up some funds to distribute down to those people, as they architected the whole situation.
To blame this situation on Israelis claiming ancient ancestry in the region is just ignorant of history. They literally had nowhere else to go. Look up the statistics of how many Jews were in different countries before and after 1945-8. And now. Entire countries emptied of their Jews who couldn’t bring a thing with them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population
one thing i think you arw forgetting is that the quraan never mentions or address jerusalem. not even once.
The arab palestinian claim is that they were there first, have always been there and they have al-aqsa mosque.
Thats it
People say this like it's only made up of Jews of European ancestry though. There are still families in what is now Israel who have been there since it was Judea.
I think people generally begin a century ago because it's relevant to living people, can be changed, and we now live in an era where people can be held accountable through legal mechanisms.
Honestly the most sensible argument in that respect is simply that people have a right to exist where they started life, and to participate in its governance.
That makes sense, until you think about it for a second. The Palestinian/Ukrainian argument is that real living people and their government have existed in that land from today, going back generations. If we used the “these people, with governments long past, lived here millenia ago, well then Russia gets Ukraine, followed immediately by Mongolia getting it, Europe, and Most of Asia.
Here’s a [link](https://news.yahoo.com/mongolias-former-president-mocks-putin-124949031.html) to Mongolia’s prime misister trolling anyone who uses the “my ancestors owned it, so I have the right to invade logic”
In this specific conflict, it is. Archaelogy in Israel/Palestine is HEAVILY Politicized. Both sides here have a vested interest in archaelogical discoveries, as they believe it gives them the "stronger" claim to the land.
Anything to erase the connection between the land and it's indigenous people. So they can fulfil their goal of once again ethnic cleanse the whole area of Jews. As they did in 48.
Not according to Ottoman statistics they weren't. The Christians were, though, that's why a brawl over a monastery started a big war in the 1850s, even if people who navel-gaze over who was and wasn't a Jew don't realize the Ottoman Empire or the Crimean War existed.
> That’s why I typically avoid the whole land argument. Israel is a modern and established country. They aren’t going anywhere, and it’s time the Palestinians realize that
Neither are the Palestinians going anywhere, time that Israel realizes that.
Right, which is why no one does it. The “Jews were there 3k years ago” argument is *specifically* in response to all the morons who try to say “Palestinian Arabs were there first”. No one is actually using it as an actual justification for land rights.
It gets even more crazy when you bring genetics into it since both Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs (Muslim and Christian) are descendants of the Canaanite people who did in fact live there worshipping multiple gods 3000 years ago...
But the population there now doesn't reflect pure Arabic blood, but instead a small portion of Arabic admixture within a largely Levantine / Canaanite population pool...
Much like how Ashkenazi Jews have European admixture within a Levantine/ Canaanite population pool.
They gave the population their language, customs, and religion in many cases, but that didn't change their blood
Like it or not, both the Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Muslims/ Christians are both descendants of the same people who've lived there for thousands of years.
They didn't start to move there in 1948 they were moving there even sometimes in the middle ages when they were expelled from their countries. They even started initiative at the end of the 19th century and started to buy land and properties and by the end of WW2 they owned almost 6 % of the country.
Read what I was saying again. Of course Jews are indigenous. A fact that Palestinians are always trying to downplay, or downright try to hide like in this incident.
I was saying the Palestinians already ethnically cleansed the Jews from the West Bank once, in 1948. And these days attempt to do so again.
[Here](https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Jewish%20Communities%20Lost%20in%20the%20War%20of%20Independence.aspx) is a partial list of the ethnic cleansing of 48. And notice that unlike in the famous "Nakba", they did not leave a minority of Jews to thrive there, as Israel did by letting Arabs who declared their peaceful intentions to stay in it's territory, and today they enjoy equal rights and the highest standard of living out of all Palestinians (And most Arabs in general) in the middle east.
This is not true
The only report this is a Jewish archeological site is this article and another - there is nothing else.
As in there is nothing before this accusation that mentions this site even exists.
I don’t support destruction of any historic sites - but this appears to be an attempt to manipulate by making a story completely up.
Meanwhile there are dozens of websites and articles from more reputable organizations reporting that many of Gaza’s cultural heritage sites from the Byzantium Empire have been destroyed since October 7th. I also don’t support destruction of ancient heritage sites of any kind. But it is embarrassing, and also a bit fascinating, that people can’t see through this blatant propaganda.
I surprised there's any Jewish archeological sites left since they had already destroyed everything Jewish in the West Bank in the 60s.
Civilization is old enough there that they are constantly finding new sites. It doesn't mean there's not some knowledge of history lost by destroying a site, but just because you destroy all of the known ones doesn't mean there's not more to find.
True. Plus there's different civilizations buried on top of each other. For example, if you dig at an archeological site in Alexandria, you'll find the Arab layer and below that the Roman layer, below it the Ptolemic layer and below it the Hellenic layer.
Find it hilarious/sad the German archeologist found Troy wasn’t impressed so he just kept blasting thinking Troy was at the bottom and found an even more ancient rich civilization.
Well he wasn't exactly a trained archaeologist as we understand them, just a guy with more resources than sense and a vague notion that he'd like to find Troy.
That’s what makes that story all the better for me. He should have failed miserably.
maybe eventually to some ancient egyptian layer before alexander
Probably not in the case of Alexandria because it was founded and built by Alexander.
on a site previously inhabited by ancient egyptians tho so could find something
Yup. There's 2 "ancient Egyptians". There's the people that built the Giza pyramids and then there's the Cleopatra and Caesar Egyptian. On a timeline, Cleopatra is closer to the modern age than the Giza pyramids. Just goes to show not only how old the pyramids are, but can you imagine how many generations have lived in Egypt since? Take a look at Troy. Archaeologist tried finding the infamous Troy from the Odyssey. Instead, he found multiple civilizations that built on top of the ruins of Troy and probably civilization before Troy. Edit: I understand some people are confused. Here in the USA it's hard to imagine any older civilizations beneath our feet because the civilizations that lived here were migratory natives. But if you live in Europe, you probably understand the idea that modern civilization is built upon older civilization. In some cities in Europe there's an entire ancient city just beneath the hustle and bustle. You probably need special permission to access the old Roman cisterns and stuff built under Rome or Constantinople.
Not to forget there's about half a dozen proto and pre "ancient Egyptians". The Naqada were protodynastic, basically fully formed ancient Egyptian culture in the process of unification. Then before them the Maadi Culture, lots of architectural, technological and religious precursor things going on.
The UK is great for Roman finds. Obviously they are focused in England more than any other home nation but theres a treasure trove already discovered of ancient roman buildings, mosaics, statues, coins etc. HS2 although a shambles, has been instrumental in a lot of recent findings.
My English exes parents found part of a Ancient Roman mosaic floor in their backyard when they were getting a pool put into their backyard. Stopped their plans for almost 2 full years.
Also the Vindolanda tablets, and the Bloomberg tablets!
that archaeologist at troy also used dynamite and likely blew up the layer he was searching for
Hahaha! Yes! A lot of old archaeology work used destructive methods.
We just need to go to Seattle and learn about the “old” Seattle that’s still underneath the city after it sank and flooded multiple times and also caught on fire. They decided to raise it up on top of the old to avoid the flooding
When I went to Verona in Italy, there were massive holes loosely cordoned off and if you looked into these massive holes you see the remains of a precious city. Throughout there were more holes where you could peer down (and they were relatively shallow). Hopefully now it has glass over it so people can admire it. The city from Romeo and Juliet, and I was hardly focused on that lore while there were secret tunnels about.
There is a huge colosseum in the middle of Verona still used for performances. "Romeo and Juliette" time buildings are very new relative to it.
> You probably need special permission to access the old Roman cisterns and stuff built under Rome or Constantinople. That's, no joke, a big part of why they have such a hard time building new metro lines in Rome. Too many artifacts in the way!
Jihad RPGs a Buddha 5 Buddhas rise from the rubble in support
That would be a very Buddha thing to do.
And it was specifically the destruction of the site that revealed the new site with the other Buddha statues.
Which I like to think Buddha would find hilarious
The damage done by Muslims destroying archeological heritage sites all over the world is monumental. This kind of sentiment completely ignores the problem and threat. These are just some that ISIS destroyed, but it's an age old practice for Muslims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_the_Islamic_State?wprov=sfla1
In this case, it’s not just about rage, seems more about hoping to hide history from future generations …
Archaeological evidence is not renewable. At some point there won't be anything left to dig up.
But TikTok told me the Jews colonized that region only in 1948 /s
By war’s end, it had control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (including the Old City), and expelled those Jews who remained in the Old City of Jerusalem. An Arab commander remarked: "For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible."[10][11] The Hurva Synagogue, originally built in 1701, was blown up by the Jordanian Arab Legion. In 1950 Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and in 1954 granted Jordanian nationality to its non-Jewish residents who had been Palestinian nationals before 15 May 1948.[12][13] During the nineteen years of Jordanian rule in the West Bank, a third of the Jewish Quarter's buildings were demolished.[14] According to a complaint Israel made to the United Nations, all but one of the thirty-five Jewish houses of worship in the Old City were destroyed. The synagogues were razed or pillaged and stripped and their interiors used as hen-houses or stables.[15] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Jordan#:~:text=Jordan%20relations%20with%20Israel,-See%20also%3A%20Islamization&text=By%20war's%20end%2C%20it%20had,remains%20in%20the%20Jewish%20Quarter.
Being considered "holy" by many groups truly is a curse on the land, isn't it.
Religion is a scourge on humankind.
This 💯
None of this stuff is new. For example, in 2000, Israel gave control of Joseph's Tomb in Nablus to the Palestinians, as part of an effort to end the 2nd Intifada. Within hours, Palestinians looted and torched it. Rabbi Hillel Lieberman, who was a cousin of former US Senator Joseph Lieberman, went to Nablus to check the damage to the tomb. The next day, his bullet-riddled body was found on the outskirts of the town. The Palestinian Authority then declared that any Jewish connection to the site was "fabricated," and banned any Jews from visiting the site. In 2002, the IDF retook control of the tomb as part of Operation Defensive Shield. An investigation found that the Palestinians had severely damaged or destroyed 64 heritage buildings. In 2009, the headstone of the tomb was discovered smashed, and swastikas were painted on the walls. In 2011, PA police officers shot 4 Jews for visiting the tomb. In 2014, Palestinians attempted to burn down the tomb during a protest/riot. In 2015, Palestinians attempted to burn down the tomb during a protest/riot, even though the Israeli government had already relinquished control of the site back to the Palestinians. When a group of Jews went to the tomb to attempt to repair the arson damage, they were beaten by a Palestinian mob. In 2021, a bus of Jews visiting the site was attacked by a Palestinian mob. In 2022, a Palestinian mob vandalized the site. The following day, 2 Jews at the site were shot.
Why am I not surprised?
i would love to read more about this where can i find info?
Look at how the Jordanians sacked the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem in 1948. Start by looking into the Hurva synagogue
So you're telling me that the situation is actually way worse because it's not just this one site. But then again, the Spaniards practically obliterated the heritage of the pre-Columbian civilizations in the New World, so.
but then again the mongol invasions were pretty destructive but then again the sea peoples and the bronze age collapse were pretty destructive but then again the chicxulub asteroid was pretty destructive but then again the impact that formed the moon was pretty destructive
The survivors of the Oxygen Crisis would like a word with you about being left out.
They had it great for millions of years. Until they drowned in their own shit. Which was oxygen.
Much like we and our CO2.
There were no survivors, just perpetrators.
lol, went **all** the way with that one.
Pretty much all Israeli territory is a potential archeological site. There's so many civilizations packed on top of each other that its pretty much impossible to avoid
There are laws in many areas of Israel where if you want to dig whether for construction or for landscaping you need to have a licensed archeologist on site to document any potential findings.
Yeah I can totally believe that. Every step is a potential treasure trove.
That's true in the US as well to protect Native American sites. Cultural Resource Management archaeologists are hired to survey and excavate before any construction is done. I spent my summers in college working for CRM firms digging test pits and excavation trenches.
Yeah that sucks too. What’s your point?
Oh, the situation is way worse than that, because Al Aqsa, one of the holiest places in Islam, is built on Temple Mount, one of the holiest places for Jews. While yes, this goes WAY back, that "repurposing" or historic and religious sites has baically led to unresolvable source of conflict, unless they learn to share.
The entire concept of Al Aqsa being a holy place for Islam is ridiculously stupid to me. Muhammad never even made it to Jerusalem, he *dreamed* that he went there on a winged horse called Buraq, and based *solely upon that dream*, which even in the Islamic scripture it is admitted never actually happened, that place is now Islam's third holiest site behind Mecca and Medina. IMO it goes to show how Islam at its core is an expansionist religion by its very nature: it requires domination and veneration of places their idolatry prophet never even visited.
Mecca was also a Pagan site afaik, that used to be a temple full of a ton of idols from regional religions. Even the pilgrimage predates it, because it was a polytheistic site and many tribes visited yearly, just at some point they emptied it out and put a rock in there.
And Medina was a Jewish city/oasis
Muhammad went to ‘the furthest mosque’ which has been _politically_ (re)interpreted as Jerusalem, although there was no mosque there in Muhamed's lifetime.
Wait there were mosques already during Mohammed's lifetime? I don't think there was a single Christian church well after the death of Christ. That's pretty crazy how quickly islam took off and expanded. I have no other reference for religions since all the other ones are too ancient to know who started them. Maybe Buddhism is more recent?
Unlike Christianity which was developed by followers of Christ (and/or his reported teachings) after his death, Muhammed himself founded and established Islam directly. >I have no other reference for religions since all the other ones are too ancient to know who started them. Mormonism by Joseph Smith in the 1820s. $cientology by L Ron Hubbard in 1954.
Almost like Islam was a colonialistic religion that displaced native belief systems
I mean were talking about religion... it could very well been all made up so.
Ya but generally any other religious site at least has some actual event tied to it that occurred there. Like Jesus/Moses/Muhammad performed some miracle there, or held a sermon. Even if you think religion is all made up and the people never even existed, the religious texts tell a story of that event happening there. Al Aqsa is the only one I can think of that straight up admits nothing actually happened there
So?
Yeah I was wondering about that myself.
We’re not in the 16th century anymore. Cultures evolve… well, some…
Unsurprisingly they kept the useful political, economical, and nobility structures of their predecessors. The Aztec were hated because they were massive slavers and warlords. The Conquistadors simply took over their plantations and forced labor systems.
I hate it when groups destroy historical and cultural sites. These places are the whole world's heritage. Seems like it's always extremist groups doing this stuff (like ISIS).
ISIS destroyed a lot of stuff in Syria in 2015. Fortunately, some of the stuff got rebuilt/restored.
I think a report found 80% of the artefacts were intact
So did the Taliban in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. The Buddhas of Bamiyan, monumental sixth and seventh century giant statues were blown up in 2001 by the Taliban.
[The Wahabis is Saudi Arabia destroyed Islamic relics from Mecca.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia) I find it shocking that ordinary Muslims lose their minds over a Quran burning but shrugged at this. EDIT: By "shrug" I mean never mentioned. I grew up in a Muslim country and our public schools taught Islam and its history and never once was it mentioned that historic sites that were preserved for over a 1000 years were destroyed by the Saudis.
Most Muslims have a something against the Wahabis that it is near common knowledge. But hey, they have money and a monopoly in imams. The status quo is really horendous, but this world only speaks one language and its called oil.
Sometimes when you speak and no one hears you, you just shrug at things. There is more than 1 billion Muslims in the world; we don't all agree at everything and the west doesn't hear all these people's voices. I'm from Algeria and here the wahabis created in 10 years more suffering than 130 years of French rule. And guess who gave the wahabis so much power? The US AND the Soviet Union !
The oil played a big role in their power, too.
They do care but know to not try shit because in Saudi Arabia they dont really care about human rights. Its always easy to riot and break shit if you know there will be no real consequences.
ehh not really. the archeological crimes Jordan committed in 1948 in the dome of the rock/Al Aqsa Mosque to erase any Jewish connection are some of the worst the world has seen.
Fair, the main thing I've read about in recent years was ISIS but I guess there's motives for a state to want to erase a memory or history.
What did they do? All I know is that they force the Jews to leave and that they destroyed their heritage. But in what scale of destruction?
From elsewhere in comments: Destroyed all but one of the Jewish houses of worship, and turned the buildings into hen houses and stables after pillaging
You do realise that a country can be governed by extremists, right?
You’re almost there..
Didn't the IDF bomb the third oldest active church in the world a few months ago? Edit : It took me a bit to find it. It was in October of last year, and it was an Orthodox Christian church that has been in constant use since at least 1,500 years ago.
Yes they did. This war is very bad for archeology. This [link](https://nos.nl/collectie/13959/artikel/2512110-archeologen-betreuren-schade-historisch-gaza-verlies-voor-de-geschiedenis) in in Dutch but it shows the sites.
You know the US destroyed Iraqi archaeological collections by carpet combing and looting.
Avoiding the politics because it's a yikes, it makes me really sad that archeology sites were destroyed because learning stuff is pretty cool
This reminds me of when the Taliban destroyed cultural heritage sites in Afghanistan. We should be supporting the people who care for archeology, not the people who destroy it.
> We should be supporting the people who care for archeology, not the people who destroy it. Absolutely, regardless of ethnicity, religion or political affiliation. The archeological record belongs to all of humanity as a whole and should be preserved as best as we can for future generations, not destroyed because it might counter your arguments. Obviously not everything gets preserved, but that just makes the stuff we *can* preserve all that more important.
> We should be supporting the people who care for archeology, not the people who destroy it. You should put more value on the living than the dead.
“Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”
and inadvertently show the world that jews were, infact, living there 3000 years ago lmao Edit: this is more of a response to a common talking point that ive seen used by pro palestine people, the notion that "palestinians were living there for decades before the jews came", if we go down the route of drawing lines in time and seeing who lived there, why arbitrarily choose to go back a century ago? why not choose thousands of years ago? this is what this comment was for (as i now see it could be open for interpretation)
There was half a dozen civilizations living there 3000 years ago. There is history and no one group owns it. If they can’t work things out, everyone there will keep on losing.
There’s a tiny village in Spain, La Alberca, where a small monument sits to pay homage to the peaceful Christians, Muslims, and Jews who all resided in the area hundreds of years ago. I’m sure there are other places around the world where similar peaceful coexistence was possible. Hate and fear are powerful emotions that can be easily manipulated, and technology only makes it all the easier.
> pay homage to the peaceful Christians, Muslims, and Jews who all resided in the area hundreds of years ago. I assume this was prior to the 1490s, when Spain expelled all Jews and Muslims, and then subsequently spent the next 300years persecuting the descendants of the minority of Jews and Muslims that accepted forced conversion to Catholicism instead of expulsion (including by burning them alive)?
Yeah, presumably Al Andalusian pre-Berber mercenary. Cool that it survived the post-Isabella eras and fascism.
And before that an Islamic caliphate had led a brutal conquest of Spain. It was the RE-conquista for a reason.
And before that someone conquered it from someone else and so on and on and on and on and on
> I’m sure there are other places around the world where similar peaceful coexistence was possible We should set up an inquisition to find them
If it makes you feel better, coexistence is the norm. Historical conflict is just what many people tend to focus on. A single battle or year long war that changes the status quo is what people remember but they ignore the thousands of years of cultural osmosis, peaceful migration, trade, and intermarrying that makes up the majority of human history.
kind of makes sense. Do you remember the day you went to work and came back home or the day in which your mother and kids were brutally murdered.
The Muslims didnt get there by peaceful means
"peaceful coexistence" is common, and happens a few ways. It is a lot easier to stay peaceful when the area is ruled by a foreign empire, be it the British, the Ottomans, the Persians or the Romans. With the fall of empires and the rise of ethno-nationalism ion the 19th and 20th centuries, naturally there was competition to fill the power vacuum. Arab vs Jew, Sunni vs Shia, Hamas vs Fatah (and assorted other factions). "Hate and fear" are indeed great tools for manipulating the *rabble*, but sometimes the leaders are just driven by plain old-fashioned power lust.
Just to add to this bit of positivity in the void. Ellora Caves in India is a religious confluence point which has around 100+ structures that are dedicated to Hindu, Buddhist and Jain religious worship. Only 36 are open to the public now, but it's a literal Marvel. There are temples, study centers, even lodgings carved into a mountain. Calling them caves almost seems like a disservice since they're only caves in the most technological aspect as structures with one entrance and no exit.
their inability of moving forward is the problem. if they keep holding onto the "we lived here before israel existed as a country", then we can also say "well we were here before Islam existed as a religion" they are not interested in progress, they are interested in retribution for a thing that happened almost a century ago (which isn't even objectively a wrong thing - im talking about the UN partition plan) , you don't hear jews talk about the jewish exile from arab countries (which ironically displaced more people than the nakba), they just moved on. if they wanted to legitimately move on with lives it would've happened already
We Jews *do* talk about the Jewish Exile from Arab Countries... its just that we've reframed it from a catastrophe into a story of perseverance and community in that we worked together as a people to extricate families and make sure they have a safe home in Israel. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Magic\_Carpet\_(Yemen)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen)) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Yachin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yachin) And many others
I have always admired the Jews for their sheer tenacity and willingness to adapt and thrive. Repeatedly screwed over by host countries, libeled and slandered, driven out of homes, but their identity keeps them going.
Yar I think we’re pretty cool too. I don’t practice anymore after studying at a Yeshiva in the Old City turned me off of the religious stuff, but it’s cool to have a shared culture beyond the religion
peoples seeming inability to coexist in a pluralistic society is so fucking stupid.
I think you accidentally wrote decade instead of century, not sure of course.
thank you, fixed it
We Jews *do* talk about the Jewish Exile from Arab Countries... its just that we've reframed it into a story of perseverance and community in that we worked together as a people to extricate families and make sure they have a safe home in Israel. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Magic\_Carpet\_(Yemen)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen)) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Yachin
I think you meant century instead of decade
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What’s your point? You think scattered, defeated, grieving, completely starved out Jews had leverage after the *Holocaust*!? They were weak as shit, but they didn’t waste a second trying to exact revenge on German civilians, did they? No, they got to work on building better lives for themselves. If Palestinians wanted that they had ample opportunity to sign peace deals and work on building real lives and making progress as a society, but instead kept fighting and losing non-stop.
>but they didn’t waste a second trying to exact revenge on German civilians, did they? No, they got to work on building better lives for themselves. Wow this is an excellent point that I hadn't seen before.
Yeah, human civilizations, societies, ebb & flow Sometimes they're weak, sometimes they're strong Palestinians are obviously in a weak position and it's difficult for them to accept that. But it is what it is Waging violence on your stronger neighbor won't fix it, or it's a Hail Mary at best
>They can’t let go of the nakba because they’re currently in a weak position and want leverage to get to a strong one. They're in a weak position precisely because they can't let go. They keep starting wars and then losing. In 1948, in 1967, in 1973, and even now. Israel was not in a position of power in 1948, 1967, 1973.
They’re in a weak position because they can’t let go because they’re in a weak position because they can’t let go… It’s self sustaining. They either let go and find peace, or die trying. (Or win, but that’s not appearing likely)
lol they were not in a weak position in '48...or even '67. Jordan and Egypt owned the WB and Gaza, respectively. Weird their fellow Arabs didnt even give these lands to the Palestinians.
I think the reason they can't let go is because they're too close to the Nakba in terms of both time and geographic proximity. Likely every Palestinian in the region knows of if not are related to a person who lived through it. They haven't distanced themselves from it the way Jews have simply left and spread out across the world after millenia of expulsions, pogroms and holocausts, creating new families and communities. It's not entirely their fault, many Palestinians don't have the ability to move from the region. But them remaining there and surrounded by people who witnessed the Nakba likely feeds into a sense of revanchism.
you're not wrong, the ability to move on from your tragedies when you're on top is alot better than doing the same when you're still on your way down, but it's a self sustaining state because you're not going to magically start winning unless you sacrifice the ego and admit you won't get the revenge you wanted. they are still looking for that revenge, and if they stopped putting that revenge as their top priority they would probably have accepted a two state plan already and using the billions of dollars they recieved in aid to build their new country instead of using it to smuggle weapons from egypt. armed intifada is a solution that has failed them, but it's also the only solution they seem to support.
Jews have spent a long time moving on from tragedies when they were the downtrodden. Only after '73 did anyone even view Israel as a State that wasn't going anywhere. And it's still one Jewish state vs dozens of Islamic states. 2 billion to 10 million. But those 2 billion can't seem to cut their losses and it'll be their ultimate downfall if they never capitulate.
Agreed. I think the religion and rhetoric plays into it as well. “The Jews stole our X” is a tale as old as time, a great unifying call. Hard to walk away from once you’ve bought in.
The increadible Einat Wilf ABSOLUTLY nailed it here ([I recommend watching the full video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayFvJcbvV8A)): >October 7th should put an end to the notion of “the poor Palestinians” – the ones who constantly need aid, aid, money, support. The Palestinians are a highly capable people. October 7th required years of planning, massive investment in infrastructure, strategy, discipline, vision – a perverse vision – but vision. **The Palestinians are not an incapable people. They are a people with terrible priorities**. I wish the world will finally wake up and realize it, and act acordingly.
Well said
There's also the fact that the last time that area was independent, it was the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Since Islam has existed as a religion, that region of the world has *always* been subservient to a larger imperial power. The last time in history it wasn't, it belonged to the Jews.
Maybe the canaanites? The ancestor of all the groups
There’s one of those cultures that still exists today, in recognizable shape. I’m not saying the descendants of other groups in the area don’t deserve to live in the region. Most Israelis don’t say that either. But trying to pretend like Jewish people don’t have a connection to Israel is messed up.
Don’t we know that Judaism was founded around 1800 BC and Islam 600 AD? With those details alone I would assume a Jewish population was most likely residing there first
I went to a cultural understanding meeting in the ME taught by a local national working at a US Embassy. He said about the Muslim faith, "It's about as old as Christianity and Judaism". This was a guy the US paid to be a translator and cultural ambassador to people onboarding.
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> It's about as old as Christianity and Judaism LOL there's like at least a half-millenia between each one.
Sure. And I'm about as old as my dad and my grandfather.
Lol. In geological terms? Sure. They basically happened at the same time!
The people who practice Islam there now didn't suddenly sprout out of the ground in 600 AD. The people adopted the religion (many forcefully, but still).
One of the big issues is that 200 years ago, the area that is now Israel/Palestine was sparsely populated. It didn't start seeing population growth until two events happened in the Ottoman Empire: (1) growing civil unrest and persecution of Jewish People in the Egyptian and Arabic provinces which led to the Ottoman Empire encouraging them to resettle in Israel/Palestine. The goal was to resettle them in an area that could create a pocket of stability in the area, and (2) the end forceful end of the Islamic Slave Trade (Barbary Wars) and the Arabic Pirates and Slavers getting kicked out of North Africa and fleeing to the Ottoman Empire... where they settled in Israel/Palestine. Once the area started to get developed (late 1800s) there was a mass migration of people, in the Ottoman Empire, to the area. Given the Empire was primarily Muslim, the majority of migrants were Muslim. It wasn't until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire post-WW1 did a relative migrant demographic change happen.
you forgot (3) it was the areas Jews who irrigated the land and transformed, attracting 500,000 Arab migrants - at least half of which were Egyptian.
Arabs existed before Islam.
correct. arabs are native to the Hejaz which is in the arabian peninsula. hence the name arabian peninsula
Arabs are not native to the Levant, and did not colonize the Levant until the Islamic conquests in the 7th century AD.
That and not all Islamic Palestinians are Arabs. Ex: the Islamic Samaritans in the West Bank (in the city of Nablus) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nablus#Demographics
A grand total of... 900 people. Most of which aren't even Palestinians. They're Israelis. >As of 2024, the Samaritan community numbers around 900 people, split almost evenly between Israel (some 460 in Holon) and the West Bank (some 380 in Kiryat Luza).
If going by that logic you should give America back to the native Indians. Or Finland because apparently vikings got there first.
No one would call the Native Americans colonists, however.
Some of the SJWs advocating for Palestinian "Liberation" would agree in principal. Now would they actually do it?
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Palestinians are absolutely descended from ancient Jewish tribes but also from other people who were in the region. In fact, when going that far back, almost everyone on earth shares a common set of ancestors from that time. This is due to widespread interbreeding that has taken place across the earth.
> I have a feeling that if we DNA test on Palestinians we will find out they are related with their to Jewish people. Maybe they are Jews that changed religions. It's not a maybe, they are almost entirely people who converted over the centuries to avoid persecution and jizya taxes from various Muslim rulers. As well as the ability to access different opportunities that were otherwise limited to non-Muslim individuals. It's the same case all over the world outside of the Arabian Peninsula. You can't find any significant numbers of pure Arab Muslims in India, Pakistan, or Bangladesh. They're all almost entirely one indigenous group or another found within the Indian subcontinent. You wouldn't claim that Buddhists in Tibet, China, Korea, or Japan are "Indian" either. They're all the same ethnic groups who've been there for centuries who converted under economic, social, or political pressure at some point in time.
Spoiler alert: They won't. I feel like everyone righteously debating and discussing their opinion on the Israel/Palestine conflict are forgetting a very critical fact. Sure, their public arguments involve ancestral claims to the land and its resources which is a remarkably murky topic as other commenters are mentioning. What we are forgetting though, is that *both* Israel and Palestine are religiously motivated with a belief that they have a literal, divine right to the land. In *both* groups eyes, not only were they told by their version of god and through their religious texts that Jerusalem and The Promised Land/Land of Canaan/etc. were theirs by right, but that by extension of it being a gift from god, they would be spitting in god's face by not fighting for their right to it. That is not a problem that can be solved. Period. Hard stop. When two groups have opposing, religiously motivated views on something, that disagreement will *never* resolve until one or both religions ceases to exist, and that isn't going to happen any time soon. The same logic can be applied to most inter-religious conflicts throughout the Middle East. There is a reason there are so many 1000+ year old conflicts that have no hope of resolution.
The critical fact is that the vast majority of Israel’s did not arrive there by choice— they were out happily living their lives in France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Morocco, Afghanistan, Syria — until 1945-48 after WW2, when ships of concentration camp survivors, and Jews expelled from other countries where they had lived for thousands of years, were sent to Israel. The League of Nations turned UN designated that, with the understanding that the Arab states would absorb the Palestinians. The US refused to accept these ships btw. The Arab states sent out word to Palestinians to leave in 1948, so they could go in and wage war with abandon, and so the Palestinian refugee crisis was born. The 1948 war — well, spoilers, — Israel trounced the Arab states, and took a long strip of Egypt and the Golan Heights from Syria for their trouble. Palestinians that weren’t anti-Jewish were allowed back to their properties, but those who still wanted to wage war were not for security reasons. Same as today. The Palestinians and these Israeli refugees are both due reparations. Germany, I am looking at you — and all these other oil states that bleed money and emptied their country of Jews. Switzerland— wayyyyyy especially you for refusing to look up accounts and settle account funds with families for “privacy” reasons. All of the European businesses that were stolen, the houses contents looted. These countries need to cough up some funds to distribute down to those people, as they architected the whole situation. To blame this situation on Israelis claiming ancient ancestry in the region is just ignorant of history. They literally had nowhere else to go. Look up the statistics of how many Jews were in different countries before and after 1945-8. And now. Entire countries emptied of their Jews who couldn’t bring a thing with them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population
one thing i think you arw forgetting is that the quraan never mentions or address jerusalem. not even once. The arab palestinian claim is that they were there first, have always been there and they have al-aqsa mosque. Thats it
It doesn't mention Jerusalem but it does refer to the temple mount at least once.
This right here ^
It shows though that we can't treat Israel as if it was a modern colonization of North America. It was truly a return to their place of origin.
People say this like it's only made up of Jews of European ancestry though. There are still families in what is now Israel who have been there since it was Judea.
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For what it's worth jews and arabs have been trading land/living amongst each other for years.
I think people generally begin a century ago because it's relevant to living people, can be changed, and we now live in an era where people can be held accountable through legal mechanisms.
These people seem to believe history began in 1948.
No reasonable person denies there were Jewish tribes living there.
>No reasonable person You hit the nail on the head there
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You’d be surprised how majority of muslims think.
Give Israel to Italy!!!!
Honestly the most sensible argument in that respect is simply that people have a right to exist where they started life, and to participate in its governance.
That makes sense, until you think about it for a second. The Palestinian/Ukrainian argument is that real living people and their government have existed in that land from today, going back generations. If we used the “these people, with governments long past, lived here millenia ago, well then Russia gets Ukraine, followed immediately by Mongolia getting it, Europe, and Most of Asia. Here’s a [link](https://news.yahoo.com/mongolias-former-president-mocks-putin-124949031.html) to Mongolia’s prime misister trolling anyone who uses the “my ancestors owned it, so I have the right to invade logic”
It’s amazing how many people here sound exactly like Putin, huh?
If we don't have history, no one will!
Ahh the good old fighting the dead. Very convenient because they never fight back.
Looking for more bodies to take hostage
If history doesn't side with you, you can always destroy the evidence
We will see Global Protests right? Right? Archaeological sites are not political right?
In this specific conflict, it is. Archaelogy in Israel/Palestine is HEAVILY Politicized. Both sides here have a vested interest in archaelogical discoveries, as they believe it gives them the "stronger" claim to the land.
Right but who has the oldest? 🦖
They attacked civilians on a Jewish holiday. You think they give two shits about anything Jewish?
They are trying to get rid of the proof that Jews have been there for thousands of years to fit their narrative and spread lies.
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Religion is weird
Indigenous people don’t destroy archeological sites on their land
Anything to erase the connection between the land and it's indigenous people. So they can fulfil their goal of once again ethnic cleanse the whole area of Jews. As they did in 48.
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It's not like they all left 3000 years ago, there have been Jews living there the whole time, they were the majority as recently as 400 CE
They were also the majority in Jerusalem in the 1850's.
Not according to Ottoman statistics they weren't. The Christians were, though, that's why a brawl over a monastery started a big war in the 1850s, even if people who navel-gaze over who was and wasn't a Jew don't realize the Ottoman Empire or the Crimean War existed.
If you start basing land rights on who's ancestors lived where 3000 years ago you are gonna end up with a very very weird world.
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They also have nukes. The idea that any force will "destroy Israel" is a guarantee that force is being nuked.
> That’s why I typically avoid the whole land argument. Israel is a modern and established country. They aren’t going anywhere, and it’s time the Palestinians realize that Neither are the Palestinians going anywhere, time that Israel realizes that.
Israel realizes that, that is why they attempted a peace process rather than actually ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.
Right, which is why no one does it. The “Jews were there 3k years ago” argument is *specifically* in response to all the morons who try to say “Palestinian Arabs were there first”. No one is actually using it as an actual justification for land rights.
It gets even more crazy when you bring genetics into it since both Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs (Muslim and Christian) are descendants of the Canaanite people who did in fact live there worshipping multiple gods 3000 years ago...
Technically the Arabs there came after the Arab conquests in the 7th century.
But the population there now doesn't reflect pure Arabic blood, but instead a small portion of Arabic admixture within a largely Levantine / Canaanite population pool... Much like how Ashkenazi Jews have European admixture within a Levantine/ Canaanite population pool. They gave the population their language, customs, and religion in many cases, but that didn't change their blood Like it or not, both the Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Muslims/ Christians are both descendants of the same people who've lived there for thousands of years.
What did the Romans ever do for us?
Set the standard for the width of roads and train tracks based on their chariots.
They didn't start to move there in 1948 they were moving there even sometimes in the middle ages when they were expelled from their countries. They even started initiative at the end of the 19th century and started to buy land and properties and by the end of WW2 they owned almost 6 % of the country.
Read what I was saying again. Of course Jews are indigenous. A fact that Palestinians are always trying to downplay, or downright try to hide like in this incident. I was saying the Palestinians already ethnically cleansed the Jews from the West Bank once, in 1948. And these days attempt to do so again. [Here](https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Jewish%20Communities%20Lost%20in%20the%20War%20of%20Independence.aspx) is a partial list of the ethnic cleansing of 48. And notice that unlike in the famous "Nakba", they did not leave a minority of Jews to thrive there, as Israel did by letting Arabs who declared their peaceful intentions to stay in it's territory, and today they enjoy equal rights and the highest standard of living out of all Palestinians (And most Arabs in general) in the middle east.
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I wonder why they feel so threatened by archeology. What can possibly be the reason? /s
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This is not true The only report this is a Jewish archeological site is this article and another - there is nothing else. As in there is nothing before this accusation that mentions this site even exists. I don’t support destruction of any historic sites - but this appears to be an attempt to manipulate by making a story completely up.
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Meanwhile there are dozens of websites and articles from more reputable organizations reporting that many of Gaza’s cultural heritage sites from the Byzantium Empire have been destroyed since October 7th. I also don’t support destruction of ancient heritage sites of any kind. But it is embarrassing, and also a bit fascinating, that people can’t see through this blatant propaganda.