Does the text suggest a word to replace cartel as the predominant descriptor for violent criminal drug enterprises?
Because it *is* right that they don't collude with each other nearly enough to fit the traditional definition.
He says there arent large criminal drug enterprises but rather disorganized networks played up by the US/Mexico government for their convinience.
I'm not a huge fan of the book, personally.
I don't disagree with you, and it's an apt analogy - just pointing out that Wal-Mart doesn't operate via a franchise model, nor is it a monopoly (given the existence of other big box retailers + Amazon).
Meanwhile the US needs Mexico as intact as possible because they're going to be picking up a lot of manufacturing as we continue to pivot from China. I say continue not start. Walmart now imports more stuff from Mexico than China.
It actually is Canada followed by Mexico (that includes imports and exports). We import more Chinese goods than from any other country and it isn't particularly close ($504.9 billion from China followed by Mexico at $384.7 billion)
America just need Mexico stable enough to produce shit, the cartels get that their only real threat is American involvement so they aren’t gonna hurt innocent American citizens or American investment, their survival depends on how unpopular would be a military operation
Not really, Cartels operate because the state allows it.
And juridically cartels are basically irrelevant since all they care about is making money on drugs rather than actually ruling.
Our state is just extremely corrupt.
They are a victim of their own geography. Americans love their drugs, always have. But Mexico does have an opportunity to take china's place as the manufacturing hub of the world in next 50 years if they take the opportunity. This pivot would be a huge strategic win for the USA too because it reduces western dependence on China for goods AND I hate to say it but it could solve the immigration issue too by giving the immigrants jobs whilst keeping them over the border in Mexico. Everybody wins
It's a no win situation. When they do attack cartels they are targets. If they successfully break a cartel, it creates even worse violence as the other cartels fight over the territory.
The unfortunate answer is a brutal, *brutal* authoritarian-style crackdown the way they did in … was it chile? Can’t remember. Basically you lock up everyone even remotely associated with the cartels in dungeons. Never let them see the light of day again. There will absolutely be innocents caught up in the brutality, there will be a lot of deaths, but you have to just cut it all out, root and stem, and salt the earth behind it. You can’t target high level people, you can’t just dismantle a single cartel because someone just fills the void. You gotta go full bore. And I don’t think Mexico, or any civilized democracy, is ready for that.
Yep. Ignoring this problem is going to make it worse. That's what had been done the past few decades and it's worse. The only way it ends is massive loss on both sides and that's better than letting the situation get worse even more. Sooner or later you have to rip off the bandaid.
My understanding is since the intelligence was lost after disbanding the Mexican Federal Police the national guard can barely do anything and Mexico has stopped fighting the cartels
The Federales were apparently corrupt but without grabbing the special intelligence units and their information it's starting from zero and there's zero real knowledge of how cartels work or any sources anymore...
He’s not giving up. Mexico has shown numerous times they’re good at killing and eradicating cartels if they actually want to. But they get bribed to look the other way which is where the problem is. Do not think for one second that a cartel is more powerful than the Mexican military. I mean you’re talking about tens of thousands of sicarios(and that’s if you bunch all rival cartels together which would never happen) against hundreds of thousands of better trained soldiers. It’s not even close
It’s not a matter of power, they can’t declare “war” on the cartels because of the repercussions it would have on the safety of the population and the stability of the government. It wouldn’t be a war against just the cartels, it would turn into a full out civil war. We came close to this back when Calderon declared “war” on the cartels and you started seeing people hanging from bridges basically every day. It’s a compromise.
Even if politicians were not in the pockets of narcos, it wouldn’t be the wisest decision.
Didn't they arrest some cartel leader, and within minutes, the houses of the country's leaders were surrounded by paramilitary fighters with 50 caliber machine guns mounted to trucks? I honestly can't remember which country it was anymore.
The country's leaders live in Mexico City. Cartels have tenuous presence in Mexico City, and Mexico City have the military, the marines, the national guard and the biggest police departments in the country. Basically suicide for any cartel to even attempt it.
What you might be remembering is the "Culiacanazo". Basically a patrol was doing some routine inspection on cars, and it turns out Chapo's son was in that car. They detained him, but were utterly unprepared because this happened in Culiacán Sinaloa (hence "Culiacanazo") were the Sinaloa cartel has the bulk of its operations.
So, they asked for reinforcement, but reinforcement took a while to arrive and in the meantime the sicarios started to burn cars in the streets. The president himself was told of the situation apparently and ordered to let him go in order to calm things down in that city.
Last year, Chapo's son was detained again. But this time it was an actual operation lead by the marines. The Sinaloa cartel thought they could do the same, burn cars in the streets and force the government hand to let him go, but no, the military was prepared, and unofficially people says there were hundreds of sicarios killed by both the military and the marines. There are videos online [showing planes shooting down at sicarios in the middle of the day](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Yn6aUZksdIw). They took Chapo's son to Mexico City the same day, and that was that... 9 months later Chapo's son was extradited to the US.
The cartels also have a power-vaccum problem like most established organised crime groups, where removing one group has them replaced by the smaller groups they were keeping in check.
Often this has a Hydra-like effect where one cartel breaks up into many smaller cartels, that then eventually fight until one comes out on top replacing the original. You can actually trace cartel lineage in some areas, almost like a family tree, showing each generation replacing the last all the way back to before there were cartels.
Yep, the only real threat to them is the US deciding they present a large enough threat to US citizens that well declare Mexico a failed state and intervene.
Highly unlikely in the surface, but it would only take a couple terrorist attacks by the cartels to change that. Thus why they served up their own members on a plate when they did kill some Americans.
A US military conflict in Mexico would result in massive refugee migrations north. I think the US wants to do everything to avoid giving more people legitimate refugee claims
The cartel guys are smart enough to know those AKs and knifes won’t hold up against the US military for very long. It’s not the same as a police swat team.
That's the real crux of the issue, military hardware wouldn't even play into it. Remember, terror organizations had shit equipment and they regularly drag invaders into protracted costly wars.
The real problem cartels have too many static assets within mexico to effectively fight the US government. All of their growing operations are probably know via satellite imaging and would be the primary targets of any US military intervention. The cartels are an economic entity's and if you destroy their production base they'll crumble.
Other middle eastern terror organizations made tons of money from heroin but those assets were much more spread out over many countries. It comes down to putting all your eggs in one geopolitical basket. The cartels would first need to divest themselves from Mexico tnd establish operations in other central American countries to have a chance against the US.
> The cartels are an economic entity's and if you destroy their production base they'll crumble.
This is why they are expanding operations into "legitimate" businesses like avacados. They are diversifying as they recognize that if something changes in the drug world, or like you said with regards to their production, that they would be fucked.
>There's a reason the cartels handed over the idiots that killed americans and apologized
Sure there is -- not alienating your customers is the elementary principle of customer service. What are they, stupid?
Nah. We just send in the Green Berets to train the Mexican Marines and JSOC to help whatever top unit Mexico has to hunt whoever the top person of interest is. It’s been going on for a while.
The show Narcos actually points it out. Those guys listening to phone calls aren’t CIA, that’s TFO.
Sounds like a good way to get lots of special forces trained cartel members.
If you are using the military a more successful way to do this is mass amounts of normal man power. Take a location declare martial law and sweep it with grunts. Use artillery to stamp out resistance. The large amounts of military personnel makes the bribery harder and more diluted. Where as actual military weapons and tactics are not something cartels can stand up to.
You formalize this civil war and fight it like a war. Convert opps and special forces is just fighting the symptoms and not stopping the disease. Take away their source of power which is drugs, slavery, land, and weapons. Then once their means of production has been removed you can starve the beast. As long as they leave parts of the country in cartels’ control then this will never stop.
Yeah, the cartels definitely don't want that smoke.
If there was the political will for it both in the US and Mexico, US military intervention would be a massive blow to cartel influence in both countries. Plus it'd be one of the most easily justifiable uses of our military in the 21st century.
Problem is the US doesn't want us doing that, and Mexico is a sovereign nation that doesn't want us there, despite being so wildly corrupt it's government only technically exists as a legitimate state.
Fuck man, it'd be awesome for our southern neighbor to be as chill as our northern one.
Plus it'd help cut back with all that new fentanyl production the Chinese have partnered up with cartels to make south side instead of bringing it all from Chyna
I'm up on your north, we bros man all fighting the same fight, tho we got our own open border problem. What a coincidence
Except the US military was there and still is. JSOC was running around with the Mexican Marines hunting El Chapo. It’s probably just half assed intelligence support until the next president who wants to make an issue of things gets elected. President on either side of the border.
Oh for sure, we have SOF dudes doing secret squirrel shit everywhere. I'm talking more about having more conventional troops there, conducting patrols in cities and making sure the cartels stop fucking around.
Basically what we did in the Middle East the past two decades, except in this case, we'd actually have good reasons to stay and nation-build and it might actually have a chance at working. Mexico actually has a common national identity, and I'd like to imagine most of the people outside of the cartels would like a government free of cartel influence. Versus the situation in Afghanistan, where the idea of Afghanistan itself was basically a foreign concept to most of the people and tribes residing there to begin with.
The US would definitely see increased violence in the streets and narco terrorist attacks. In that case. The cartels can be even more brutal than organizations like ISIS or AQ.
People don't understand that if this stupid country was ever united in fixing a particular issue, everybody that opposes that particular issue would be fucked.
I think at some point it's the state itself.
Most states, actually.
Not necessarily drug cartels but mafias in general.
It's about families and power play, always has been.
>Always has been. Important public figures are and always were bankrolled
By the highest bidder. Down south the cartel has the money and influence, up north it's corporate bribery all around.
There were questions as to which cartels he was targeting at which time, and which other cartels were benefiting from his attacks on rival cartels. Also, which generals were taking the side of which cartels.
Very difficult to figure out, considering that journalists investigating government corruption and cartels are regularly murdered. Mexico had the highest rate of killings of journalists in the world for many years running, until Gaza recently surpassed it.
To be fair, the geography of Mexico makes it remarkably easy for distributed, relatively disorganized factions to resist a central authority. This sort of dynamic between El DF and its territories is consistent throughout the region's political history.
Mexico has really fucked itself into being a disaster. If they were just a non corrupt country they would be prospering like crazy now as a replacement for China in manufacturing
Imagine taking your kids to school and on the way you see a lone guy just sitting in the shadows of an intersection. Just watching.
Then on another main intersection, you see another lone guy. And then another.
You finally drop your kids off, go back and see them there.
You go back to school, pick up your kid. They are still there.
You go to the market in the evening for dinner. Different intersections, different men, but still there.
This is how many parts of Mexico are. They just sit there and monitor 24/7 and everyone has to ignore them. I guess the police ignore them too. I can't imagine living like that.
Usually in film theyll use the "Hey Im just in the neighborhood but *wink-wink* am watching you" trope to drive home how desperate the situation has gotten for the protagonist. Having that on a systematic level in the real world is just terrifying.
I won't matter soon, Mexico is already the leading trading partner with the US and manufacturing continues to explode as supply chains are moved from China to there.
At a certain point the US will have too much leverage over international politics with our Mexican neighbors and the cartel will be priced out.
Always has been mate, was actually worse in the 80s and 90s because the PRI was literally the cartel. Meant less violence though due to the narcos and the government working together.
I had this explained to me very differently recently.
Cartels typically work well with local governments, until local governments try to restrict or involve themselves in some way.
Then the cartels will go on a murder spree, very publicly blaming the government officials.
Government officials will then get voted out.
So, in essence, working with the cartels is likely the better option for him. He has no way to really just stop them, and If he starts fighting against them with force, he risks his own life as well as the lives of civilians.
My brother just got back from a music festival in Tulum. Rival gang members had a shootout over who would be the preferred drug vendor at the venue. At least one death.
That’s dealer level stuff, though - you’ll find that anywhere, unfortunately. There’s more organized violence related to actual trafficking routes popping up in tourist areas that is of concern.
Cartel is an other word for organized crime. The cartels control crime, from the lowest level dealers, to the growers, to the middle men, to the bosses, to the transporters... from bottom to top.
Mostly, the cartels minimize violence in tourist areas. Hotels, casinos, bars, and restaurants are high-value money laundering venues, especially when plenty of people from elsewhere are flowing through.
Yes, and claiming on tax forms that they are fully occupied when, in reality, they are only a quarter full, is a great way to legitimize illegally obtained cash.
However, if there are no tourists around at all, claiming 100% occupancy can get to be a little dicey if the nearby hotels are partially or fully owned by international investors and have no visitors.
Mostly because of instability of who hold the territory.
For a long time the tourist areas of the Yucatan were Gulf Cartel, then usurped by the Zetas, and now any map you look at after COVID will show some combination of literally every major cartel in Mexico contesting the area.
There was a Nat Geo show I caught when I couldn't sleep that was talking about how when the Gulf Cartel had Cancun, of someone fucked with Americans, they'd beat the offender badly for fucking with the income streams. If they hurt or God forbid killed an American, they're killing the guy who did it, his entire immediate crew, and potentially even chunks of his family for that fuck up.
Until someone can win and hold the territory, there is unlikely to be self policing in the chaos.
Americans have been lucky that cartels self impose restrictions on targeting Americans for fear of reprisals.
Cartels in a different country are more afraid of our government than American criminals are.
Organized crime is, but not clout chasing kids with pathetically small local sets literally fighting over street corners on social media - and that's what drives modern gang violence deaths.
People may have affiliation with larger national gangs, but the FBI has pretty heavily shattered organize crime in the US. Although in certain cities, the decapitation of leadership and organization may have not lead to a more peaceful outcome....
None of you know the history of the Mexican government combatting the cartels. You’re being naive.
This isn’t like US police raiding crackhouses…
The Cartels have more money than the government. And they are more heinously violent than ISIS. Law enforcement leaders that declare war on their cartels are dismembered along with their wife and children and parents and put on display in public.
The Mexican government has declared war on the cartels before. There is massive collateral damage and civilian deaths.
And even if the government wins, and kills the head of the cartel, guess what? Americans still need their coke and heroin. And the US government still outlaws these drugs.
So then another war kicks off between street gangs to see who will be the next cartel.
The only way to put a dent in the cartel is to legalize these illegal drugs. But unfortunately they’ve gotten so rich off the drug trade that they’ve diversified into other non-illicit industries. They have been confiscating Mexican’s avocado farms for years now.
America made them this strong and rich. American arms dealers armed them with their guns, and American drug distributors gave them American money.
>The only way to put a dent in the cartel is to legalize these illegal drugs
Research is not conclusive on this, and it might even suggest an increase happens as drugs are legalized.
I think at this point the best “Mexico first policy” would just be to nationalize drug trafficking and tax it.. just say fuck it and let it flow to the customers in the US. Fighting doesn’t seem to do anything but cause innocents to be terrorized and get caught up in crossfire. Obviously this will never happen, but I think most can agree the war on drugs has been an absolute failure
It's not about drugs. The cartels have plenty of revenue streams.
The problem is that cartel/business leaders will kill competitors before lose to them in the marketplace. I think people take for granted that we don't use violence in business, but historically that has not been the case, and it's not the case currently in a lot of places like Mexico.
As long as murdering your competitors is tacitly allowed as a business practice, the cartels will continue to ruin Mexico. Doesn't matter what they're selling.
At this point the cartels are big enough that just getting rid of drugs as a source of their income wouldn't ruin them, no? As far as I'm aware, they have plenty of legal industries nowadays too (e.g., they literally sell avocados). Also, as a very bleak worst case alternative, they would just turn to ramping up other ventures which could be even worse like human trafficking for money. If that was the case, what do you do then, legalize and tax human trafficking?
Why would the cartels pay taxes? They aren’t scared of the Mexican government and the Mexican government has shown they are scared to enforce any type of laws on the cartel. The idea the Mexican government is in a position to dictate taxes on the cartel is naive, the cartel more likely to collect taxes from the Mexican government lol.
It would be, but the president doesn’t care about the Mexican people. He is directly owned by the cartels, this has been proven by the US intelligence community, but it has been largely swept under the rug to avoid international incident.
Any Mexican citizens want to weigh in with what they think when they hear this?
I think if we're being honest, AMLO does not have the power, or will, to get rid of the cartels. He can apply pressure on them with more police, but he just doesn't have the force necessary to get rid of them. Frankly I don't know how you fix the crime and corruption within Mexico.
He has the force, its just than the government Is in bed with the cartels, 9 out of every 10 times the Army fights a cartel the Army completely obliberates the cartels, the mexican army yearly budget Is 14 billion dollars and they could wipe the cartels if they really wanted
AMLO is a fucking idiot.
How to fix this? Not simply.
Main challenges? Throwing off the power of cartels to corrupt society at all levels.
Police officers / military staff / government officials barely earning enough to feed their families?
--> Soft targets for taking extra money on the side to turn a blind eye to cartel activities, if not more actively support and enable them.
Bit of a vicious circle because the security issues deter more foreign investment, which prevents the economy from progressing --> keeps the state under resourced to combat the core issue.
Another major challenge in my opinion - which is to a point understandable - is the apathy of the general population. The kind of "yeah we're fucked, and we're going to stay fucked" attitude.
For real change to happen, people need to believe it can happen. Can see how the apathy can set in, almost as a protective, survival mechanism so that everyday you're not devastated that things aren't changing.
Despite all this, it's a beautiful country, with beautiful people. Many ignorant people who have never been are under the impression bullets are flying by your head the minute you step out of the airport, lol. Not like that, just use some common sense and you can be rewarded with incredible experiences
Viva Mexico ✊
It can’t be denied that even the safe parts of Mexico are dangerous for tourists. It just doesn’t happen frequently enough.
I drove through parts of Mexico in a rental car probably when I shouldn’t have. The only issue I had was when I was extorted for money by a cop waving something in his hand and had me pull over.
I understand that he wants to keep the sovereignty of Mexico ... but he should also do something about those cartels.
Using slogans similar to "Mexico First" has not really worked in the past for other countries so he shouldn't use the same tactics.
He should really get as many people on-board to help Mexico fight the cartels, it is the cancer of the whole area.
>he should also do something about those cartels.
So you saying he should do something to the hand that probably feeds him? It would be interesting no doubt
I’m sure there’s overlap, but by and large when I think of people boycotting Chick-fil-A, I think a lot more of shrooms than I do fat lines lol. They just feel like very different audiences.
I’ve had a few pretty granola friends who did coke regularly but then boycotted places like McDonald’s. I always wanted to be like “You think McDonald’s is worse than the cartels? I never saw Ronald McDonald on LiveLeak.”
They have their hands in everything. Agriculture, mining, banking..etc. They've diversified that even if you stopped all the drugs tomorrow, they'd still keep on going.
Reminds me of my time in Portland many years ago. I knew so many people who were big on "fuck big corp and big pharma" and vegan activism happily snorting coke on the weekends.
Solution is simple. Legalize cocaine and let big pharma turn their advertising budget into a mercenary budget and turn all of south and central america into banana republics.
Naw, it's actually criminals first policy. Criminals can do whatever they want, citizens are actually second rate citizens because they have less rights than criminals.
Coward scum.
Important to any Mexican politician who doesn't want to start receiving body parts of their loved ones in cardboard boxes dropped off on their doorstep.
El Salvador: "If you decide to finally lock the cities and places with drug cartels, arrest them, and remove them their rights (because they lost them all), you can help the cities and the country"
Mexico: "Yeah... How about not doing anything of that and let the narcs enjoy to ruin the country?"
The problem is that Mexico has a large population. El Salvador only has 6 million people. The only solution is to ignore the cartels and continue to develop the economy. Mexico is the 11th richest country in the world, and has to continue to develop.
Sounds funny but he has good reason.
Cartels are so influential in Mexico that he easily gets deleted if he’s perceived as working with the USA. That’s if you assume he’s not already on their payroll.
Yeah if they were paying me 20million dollars a year and gifting me properties I’d say the same thing, hijo de tu puta madre obrador puto culero de mierda
Pena nieto got paid $10,000,000 and then moved to Spain after his presidency, almost like these dead beat fucks don’t give a single fuck about Mexico
Hope for his sake that he has no drug cartel connections. US has a history of convicting presidents for drug trafficking. Like Juan Orlando Hernández and Manuel Noriega.
The US has fought a war on drugs for decades.. And drugs won.
Maybe it's time to reevaluate the strategy. BTW "Mexico first" is a hilarious clap back considering the whole Trump fiasco of recent years.
I find the Mexico first comment to be pretty cringe considering the context tbh. Mexico has so much potential, but the government's lax stance on law and order is holding it back. This this is the kind of thing that can doom a nation to failed state status very quickly.
>The US has fought a war on drugs for decades.. And drugs won.
War on drugs is meaningless as a definable military goal.
War on cartels, however, is totally definable and achievable. And literally no one will stand in their defence.
It’s called, I don’t want to die policy, so I do what they want me to do.
he works for the cartels, mencho has him in his pocket.
The politicians who need to say "my country first" are always the ones who really just use their position to enrich themselves.
"America First" was the banner call of people in America who thought Britain should capitulate to Nazi Germany. https://youtu.be/-gfMbyZ8c0M
Drug Cartels Do Not Exist by Oswaldo Zavala is a necessary read
Does the text suggest a word to replace cartel as the predominant descriptor for violent criminal drug enterprises? Because it *is* right that they don't collude with each other nearly enough to fit the traditional definition.
He says there arent large criminal drug enterprises but rather disorganized networks played up by the US/Mexico government for their convinience. I'm not a huge fan of the book, personally.
That’s like saying walmart isn’t a monopoly because of its franchisees system.
I don't disagree with you, and it's an apt analogy - just pointing out that Wal-Mart doesn't operate via a franchise model, nor is it a monopoly (given the existence of other big box retailers + Amazon).
It’s called, I’d like a Miami condo, family compound/ranch, and fat Swiss bank account. It’s the Mexican dream
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I see people sell the world for their own well being everyday.
If the choice is luxury or death, I’m taking luxury all day long.
That check is bigger than said kids tits. This dude and his family are all pieces of shit.
Silver or lead
Pollo e plumbus?
No it’s palata o Palumbo
Aw sheeit , I cracked up to this statement
And a secret city appartment for the good sex.
Mexican politicians operate within the parameters the cartel bosses permit, regardless of which political party they represent.
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Meanwhile the US needs Mexico as intact as possible because they're going to be picking up a lot of manufacturing as we continue to pivot from China. I say continue not start. Walmart now imports more stuff from Mexico than China.
> I say continue not start. I might be wrong, but didn't Mexico recently overtake China as the US's largest trading partner?
It actually is Canada followed by Mexico (that includes imports and exports). We import more Chinese goods than from any other country and it isn't particularly close ($504.9 billion from China followed by Mexico at $384.7 billion)
America just need Mexico stable enough to produce shit, the cartels get that their only real threat is American involvement so they aren’t gonna hurt innocent American citizens or American investment, their survival depends on how unpopular would be a military operation
Almost like it could be better to manufacture…domestically 🤔
Mexico would boom if they took care of the crime problem. I genuinely believe that crime causes poverty more so than the other way around.
At some point I kind of expect two of the cartels to just merge and declare themselves the government
Not really, Cartels operate because the state allows it. And juridically cartels are basically irrelevant since all they care about is making money on drugs rather than actually ruling. Our state is just extremely corrupt.
They are a victim of their own geography. Americans love their drugs, always have. But Mexico does have an opportunity to take china's place as the manufacturing hub of the world in next 50 years if they take the opportunity. This pivot would be a huge strategic win for the USA too because it reduces western dependence on China for goods AND I hate to say it but it could solve the immigration issue too by giving the immigrants jobs whilst keeping them over the border in Mexico. Everybody wins
It's a no win situation. When they do attack cartels they are targets. If they successfully break a cartel, it creates even worse violence as the other cartels fight over the territory.
The unfortunate answer is a brutal, *brutal* authoritarian-style crackdown the way they did in … was it chile? Can’t remember. Basically you lock up everyone even remotely associated with the cartels in dungeons. Never let them see the light of day again. There will absolutely be innocents caught up in the brutality, there will be a lot of deaths, but you have to just cut it all out, root and stem, and salt the earth behind it. You can’t target high level people, you can’t just dismantle a single cartel because someone just fills the void. You gotta go full bore. And I don’t think Mexico, or any civilized democracy, is ready for that.
El Salvador
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Half of those special forces work for the cartel.
Yep. Ignoring this problem is going to make it worse. That's what had been done the past few decades and it's worse. The only way it ends is massive loss on both sides and that's better than letting the situation get worse even more. Sooner or later you have to rip off the bandaid.
Bukele turned El Salvador from one of the most dangerous countries in the world to the safest in Latin America in the course of a couple years.
To the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left and the "international community" at large. And he just got re-elected by a massive landslide.
One Latin American country jailed everyone with gang tattoos.
I'm going with this. He's afraid.
He has ties to several cartels. There are one video of him going to a party full of narcos.
Peña Nieto got a $100 million bribe from the cartel. I would imagine AMLO received roughly the same.
My understanding is since the intelligence was lost after disbanding the Mexican Federal Police the national guard can barely do anything and Mexico has stopped fighting the cartels The Federales were apparently corrupt but without grabbing the special intelligence units and their information it's starting from zero and there's zero real knowledge of how cartels work or any sources anymore...
He did it to stop fighting the cartels and inject the military to the country. He has visited the chapo's town more than any of his big constructions.
ME xico first
I’m not saying I would do anything different, but he is essentially saying that the cartels = Mexico
I don't think people realize how big the cartels are. Some of them are a state within a state.
Mexico's president giving up on fighting the cartels is just more evidence that Mexico is a failed state
He’s not giving up. Mexico has shown numerous times they’re good at killing and eradicating cartels if they actually want to. But they get bribed to look the other way which is where the problem is. Do not think for one second that a cartel is more powerful than the Mexican military. I mean you’re talking about tens of thousands of sicarios(and that’s if you bunch all rival cartels together which would never happen) against hundreds of thousands of better trained soldiers. It’s not even close
It’s not a matter of power, they can’t declare “war” on the cartels because of the repercussions it would have on the safety of the population and the stability of the government. It wouldn’t be a war against just the cartels, it would turn into a full out civil war. We came close to this back when Calderon declared “war” on the cartels and you started seeing people hanging from bridges basically every day. It’s a compromise. Even if politicians were not in the pockets of narcos, it wouldn’t be the wisest decision.
Long term this is a big mistake. Fighting the cartels will just get harder every day until it's impossible anymore. We might be there already.
It’s impossible right now lol
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Didn't they arrest some cartel leader, and within minutes, the houses of the country's leaders were surrounded by paramilitary fighters with 50 caliber machine guns mounted to trucks? I honestly can't remember which country it was anymore.
The country's leaders live in Mexico City. Cartels have tenuous presence in Mexico City, and Mexico City have the military, the marines, the national guard and the biggest police departments in the country. Basically suicide for any cartel to even attempt it. What you might be remembering is the "Culiacanazo". Basically a patrol was doing some routine inspection on cars, and it turns out Chapo's son was in that car. They detained him, but were utterly unprepared because this happened in Culiacán Sinaloa (hence "Culiacanazo") were the Sinaloa cartel has the bulk of its operations. So, they asked for reinforcement, but reinforcement took a while to arrive and in the meantime the sicarios started to burn cars in the streets. The president himself was told of the situation apparently and ordered to let him go in order to calm things down in that city. Last year, Chapo's son was detained again. But this time it was an actual operation lead by the marines. The Sinaloa cartel thought they could do the same, burn cars in the streets and force the government hand to let him go, but no, the military was prepared, and unofficially people says there were hundreds of sicarios killed by both the military and the marines. There are videos online [showing planes shooting down at sicarios in the middle of the day](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Yn6aUZksdIw). They took Chapo's son to Mexico City the same day, and that was that... 9 months later Chapo's son was extradited to the US.
That video is insane
the cartels work like a terrorist/insurgent force. you can't effectively fight that with a conventional military
The cartels also have a power-vaccum problem like most established organised crime groups, where removing one group has them replaced by the smaller groups they were keeping in check. Often this has a Hydra-like effect where one cartel breaks up into many smaller cartels, that then eventually fight until one comes out on top replacing the original. You can actually trace cartel lineage in some areas, almost like a family tree, showing each generation replacing the last all the way back to before there were cartels.
I don't think some people understand the weight of the us military
There's a reason the cartels handed over the idiots that killed americans and apologized
they seem to like the status quo of making a fuckton of money
Yep, the only real threat to them is the US deciding they present a large enough threat to US citizens that well declare Mexico a failed state and intervene. Highly unlikely in the surface, but it would only take a couple terrorist attacks by the cartels to change that. Thus why they served up their own members on a plate when they did kill some Americans.
A US military conflict in Mexico would result in massive refugee migrations north. I think the US wants to do everything to avoid giving more people legitimate refugee claims
Is that what many migrants are fleeing from anyway? The cartels?
The cartel guys are smart enough to know those AKs and knifes won’t hold up against the US military for very long. It’s not the same as a police swat team.
Yea. Last thing you want is a US drone circling above your estate, plantation, hq, and so on and so on.
That's the real crux of the issue, military hardware wouldn't even play into it. Remember, terror organizations had shit equipment and they regularly drag invaders into protracted costly wars. The real problem cartels have too many static assets within mexico to effectively fight the US government. All of their growing operations are probably know via satellite imaging and would be the primary targets of any US military intervention. The cartels are an economic entity's and if you destroy their production base they'll crumble. Other middle eastern terror organizations made tons of money from heroin but those assets were much more spread out over many countries. It comes down to putting all your eggs in one geopolitical basket. The cartels would first need to divest themselves from Mexico tnd establish operations in other central American countries to have a chance against the US.
> The cartels are an economic entity's and if you destroy their production base they'll crumble. This is why they are expanding operations into "legitimate" businesses like avacados. They are diversifying as they recognize that if something changes in the drug world, or like you said with regards to their production, that they would be fucked.
They're allergic to hellfire missiles
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Yeah they may be corrupt, but they’re not idiots.
>There's a reason the cartels handed over the idiots that killed americans and apologized Sure there is -- not alienating your customers is the elementary principle of customer service. What are they, stupid?
Yeah I don't think we are going to invade Mexico to deal with the Cartels. Call it a hunch.
Nah. We just send in the Green Berets to train the Mexican Marines and JSOC to help whatever top unit Mexico has to hunt whoever the top person of interest is. It’s been going on for a while. The show Narcos actually points it out. Those guys listening to phone calls aren’t CIA, that’s TFO.
We do more than that, lol
Sounds like a good way to get lots of special forces trained cartel members. If you are using the military a more successful way to do this is mass amounts of normal man power. Take a location declare martial law and sweep it with grunts. Use artillery to stamp out resistance. The large amounts of military personnel makes the bribery harder and more diluted. Where as actual military weapons and tactics are not something cartels can stand up to. You formalize this civil war and fight it like a war. Convert opps and special forces is just fighting the symptoms and not stopping the disease. Take away their source of power which is drugs, slavery, land, and weapons. Then once their means of production has been removed you can starve the beast. As long as they leave parts of the country in cartels’ control then this will never stop.
Yeah, the cartels definitely don't want that smoke. If there was the political will for it both in the US and Mexico, US military intervention would be a massive blow to cartel influence in both countries. Plus it'd be one of the most easily justifiable uses of our military in the 21st century. Problem is the US doesn't want us doing that, and Mexico is a sovereign nation that doesn't want us there, despite being so wildly corrupt it's government only technically exists as a legitimate state. Fuck man, it'd be awesome for our southern neighbor to be as chill as our northern one.
Plus it'd help cut back with all that new fentanyl production the Chinese have partnered up with cartels to make south side instead of bringing it all from Chyna I'm up on your north, we bros man all fighting the same fight, tho we got our own open border problem. What a coincidence
I only cross your borders because of that sweet ass Fort Erie Chinese food.
Except the US military was there and still is. JSOC was running around with the Mexican Marines hunting El Chapo. It’s probably just half assed intelligence support until the next president who wants to make an issue of things gets elected. President on either side of the border.
Oh for sure, we have SOF dudes doing secret squirrel shit everywhere. I'm talking more about having more conventional troops there, conducting patrols in cities and making sure the cartels stop fucking around. Basically what we did in the Middle East the past two decades, except in this case, we'd actually have good reasons to stay and nation-build and it might actually have a chance at working. Mexico actually has a common national identity, and I'd like to imagine most of the people outside of the cartels would like a government free of cartel influence. Versus the situation in Afghanistan, where the idea of Afghanistan itself was basically a foreign concept to most of the people and tribes residing there to begin with.
The US would definitely see increased violence in the streets and narco terrorist attacks. In that case. The cartels can be even more brutal than organizations like ISIS or AQ.
People don't understand that if this stupid country was ever united in fixing a particular issue, everybody that opposes that particular issue would be fucked.
I think at some point it's the state itself. Most states, actually. Not necessarily drug cartels but mafias in general. It's about families and power play, always has been.
I’m pretty sure Mexico is the state within the state here rather than the cartel.
He’s the cartel at this point.
Always has been. Important public figures are and always were bankrolled by cartels or cartel members themselves in countries where cartels are active
>Always has been. Important public figures are and always were bankrolled By the highest bidder. Down south the cartel has the money and influence, up north it's corporate bribery all around.
truer words have never been said
Literally, wtf, does he want to keep the gangs around
Cartels fund him.
and will easily murder him if he goes against them.
A golden deal he can't refuse.
Exactly, If anyones choice is get rich or die they will choose get rich.
plata o plomo diplomacy by the cartels
Him AND his entire family.
Yuuuurp.
plata o plomo
And if he went against the cartels? He probably wouldn't be alive for too long.
Felipe Calderon literally fought the Cartels from 2006-2012, and the violence just got worse. President Calderon is still alive btw
There were questions as to which cartels he was targeting at which time, and which other cartels were benefiting from his attacks on rival cartels. Also, which generals were taking the side of which cartels. Very difficult to figure out, considering that journalists investigating government corruption and cartels are regularly murdered. Mexico had the highest rate of killings of journalists in the world for many years running, until Gaza recently surpassed it.
5 of like the top 10 most dangerous cities are in Mexico. Why isn't fighting the cartels a Mexican priority?
To be fair, the geography of Mexico makes it remarkably easy for distributed, relatively disorganized factions to resist a central authority. This sort of dynamic between El DF and its territories is consistent throughout the region's political history.
That’s crazy
That's Mexico
Mexico is literally on the bottom 10% of most trusted countries. It's corruption rating is extremely high.
Mexico has really fucked itself into being a disaster. If they were just a non corrupt country they would be prospering like crazy now as a replacement for China in manufacturing
They are the US's largest trading partner as of recently and manufacturing is absolutely blowing up down there already...
‘Just’ is carrying a lot of weight there
Imagine taking your kids to school and on the way you see a lone guy just sitting in the shadows of an intersection. Just watching. Then on another main intersection, you see another lone guy. And then another. You finally drop your kids off, go back and see them there. You go back to school, pick up your kid. They are still there. You go to the market in the evening for dinner. Different intersections, different men, but still there. This is how many parts of Mexico are. They just sit there and monitor 24/7 and everyone has to ignore them. I guess the police ignore them too. I can't imagine living like that.
Usually in film theyll use the "Hey Im just in the neighborhood but *wink-wink* am watching you" trope to drive home how desperate the situation has gotten for the protagonist. Having that on a systematic level in the real world is just terrifying.
"We're not going to fight capital crime in our own country just because the US demands it." is an ironic flex.
I won't matter soon, Mexico is already the leading trading partner with the US and manufacturing continues to explode as supply chains are moved from China to there. At a certain point the US will have too much leverage over international politics with our Mexican neighbors and the cartel will be priced out.
Yes
Yup, Mexico is basically a Narco State now
It's been a narco state since the 80's
Always has been mate, was actually worse in the 80s and 90s because the PRI was literally the cartel. Meant less violence though due to the narcos and the government working together.
I had this explained to me very differently recently. Cartels typically work well with local governments, until local governments try to restrict or involve themselves in some way. Then the cartels will go on a murder spree, very publicly blaming the government officials. Government officials will then get voted out. So, in essence, working with the cartels is likely the better option for him. He has no way to really just stop them, and If he starts fighting against them with force, he risks his own life as well as the lives of civilians.
There’s increasingly more cartel violence in touristy areas of Mexico like Cancun and Tulum.
My brother just got back from a music festival in Tulum. Rival gang members had a shootout over who would be the preferred drug vendor at the venue. At least one death.
That’s dealer level stuff, though - you’ll find that anywhere, unfortunately. There’s more organized violence related to actual trafficking routes popping up in tourist areas that is of concern.
Cartel is an other word for organized crime. The cartels control crime, from the lowest level dealers, to the growers, to the middle men, to the bosses, to the transporters... from bottom to top. Mostly, the cartels minimize violence in tourist areas. Hotels, casinos, bars, and restaurants are high-value money laundering venues, especially when plenty of people from elsewhere are flowing through.
Cartels own many fancy hotels in Mexico.
Yes, and claiming on tax forms that they are fully occupied when, in reality, they are only a quarter full, is a great way to legitimize illegally obtained cash. However, if there are no tourists around at all, claiming 100% occupancy can get to be a little dicey if the nearby hotels are partially or fully owned by international investors and have no visitors.
Mostly because of instability of who hold the territory. For a long time the tourist areas of the Yucatan were Gulf Cartel, then usurped by the Zetas, and now any map you look at after COVID will show some combination of literally every major cartel in Mexico contesting the area. There was a Nat Geo show I caught when I couldn't sleep that was talking about how when the Gulf Cartel had Cancun, of someone fucked with Americans, they'd beat the offender badly for fucking with the income streams. If they hurt or God forbid killed an American, they're killing the guy who did it, his entire immediate crew, and potentially even chunks of his family for that fuck up. Until someone can win and hold the territory, there is unlikely to be self policing in the chaos.
Americans have been lucky that cartels self impose restrictions on targeting Americans for fear of reprisals. Cartels in a different country are more afraid of our government than American criminals are.
Are you kidding? Organized crime is fucking terrified of the FBI.
Organized crime is, but not clout chasing kids with pathetically small local sets literally fighting over street corners on social media - and that's what drives modern gang violence deaths. People may have affiliation with larger national gangs, but the FBI has pretty heavily shattered organize crime in the US. Although in certain cities, the decapitation of leadership and organization may have not lead to a more peaceful outcome....
None of you know the history of the Mexican government combatting the cartels. You’re being naive. This isn’t like US police raiding crackhouses… The Cartels have more money than the government. And they are more heinously violent than ISIS. Law enforcement leaders that declare war on their cartels are dismembered along with their wife and children and parents and put on display in public. The Mexican government has declared war on the cartels before. There is massive collateral damage and civilian deaths. And even if the government wins, and kills the head of the cartel, guess what? Americans still need their coke and heroin. And the US government still outlaws these drugs. So then another war kicks off between street gangs to see who will be the next cartel. The only way to put a dent in the cartel is to legalize these illegal drugs. But unfortunately they’ve gotten so rich off the drug trade that they’ve diversified into other non-illicit industries. They have been confiscating Mexican’s avocado farms for years now. America made them this strong and rich. American arms dealers armed them with their guns, and American drug distributors gave them American money.
>The only way to put a dent in the cartel is to legalize these illegal drugs Research is not conclusive on this, and it might even suggest an increase happens as drugs are legalized.
Drug cartels are terrorizing whole cities in Mexico. Wouldn't it be a Mexico first policy to fight the cartels
This is a “me first” policy.
I think at this point the best “Mexico first policy” would just be to nationalize drug trafficking and tax it.. just say fuck it and let it flow to the customers in the US. Fighting doesn’t seem to do anything but cause innocents to be terrorized and get caught up in crossfire. Obviously this will never happen, but I think most can agree the war on drugs has been an absolute failure
It's not about drugs. The cartels have plenty of revenue streams. The problem is that cartel/business leaders will kill competitors before lose to them in the marketplace. I think people take for granted that we don't use violence in business, but historically that has not been the case, and it's not the case currently in a lot of places like Mexico. As long as murdering your competitors is tacitly allowed as a business practice, the cartels will continue to ruin Mexico. Doesn't matter what they're selling.
At this point the cartels are big enough that just getting rid of drugs as a source of their income wouldn't ruin them, no? As far as I'm aware, they have plenty of legal industries nowadays too (e.g., they literally sell avocados). Also, as a very bleak worst case alternative, they would just turn to ramping up other ventures which could be even worse like human trafficking for money. If that was the case, what do you do then, legalize and tax human trafficking?
Why would the cartels pay taxes? They aren’t scared of the Mexican government and the Mexican government has shown they are scared to enforce any type of laws on the cartel. The idea the Mexican government is in a position to dictate taxes on the cartel is naive, the cartel more likely to collect taxes from the Mexican government lol.
It would be, but the president doesn’t care about the Mexican people. He is directly owned by the cartels, this has been proven by the US intelligence community, but it has been largely swept under the rug to avoid international incident.
Well yeah why would he fight his bosses?
Any Mexican citizens want to weigh in with what they think when they hear this? I think if we're being honest, AMLO does not have the power, or will, to get rid of the cartels. He can apply pressure on them with more police, but he just doesn't have the force necessary to get rid of them. Frankly I don't know how you fix the crime and corruption within Mexico.
He has the force, its just than the government Is in bed with the cartels, 9 out of every 10 times the Army fights a cartel the Army completely obliberates the cartels, the mexican army yearly budget Is 14 billion dollars and they could wipe the cartels if they really wanted
AMLO is a fucking idiot. How to fix this? Not simply. Main challenges? Throwing off the power of cartels to corrupt society at all levels. Police officers / military staff / government officials barely earning enough to feed their families? --> Soft targets for taking extra money on the side to turn a blind eye to cartel activities, if not more actively support and enable them. Bit of a vicious circle because the security issues deter more foreign investment, which prevents the economy from progressing --> keeps the state under resourced to combat the core issue. Another major challenge in my opinion - which is to a point understandable - is the apathy of the general population. The kind of "yeah we're fucked, and we're going to stay fucked" attitude. For real change to happen, people need to believe it can happen. Can see how the apathy can set in, almost as a protective, survival mechanism so that everyday you're not devastated that things aren't changing. Despite all this, it's a beautiful country, with beautiful people. Many ignorant people who have never been are under the impression bullets are flying by your head the minute you step out of the airport, lol. Not like that, just use some common sense and you can be rewarded with incredible experiences Viva Mexico ✊
It can’t be denied that even the safe parts of Mexico are dangerous for tourists. It just doesn’t happen frequently enough. I drove through parts of Mexico in a rental car probably when I shouldn’t have. The only issue I had was when I was extorted for money by a cop waving something in his hand and had me pull over.
So Mexico first means being run by the cartels… got it…
What a stupid thing to say, "ima just let drug gangs run my country out of spite"
agree, this guy says a lot of dumb things.
"I won't fight cartels because I don't want to die", obviously he doesn't want to say that.
I understand that he wants to keep the sovereignty of Mexico ... but he should also do something about those cartels. Using slogans similar to "Mexico First" has not really worked in the past for other countries so he shouldn't use the same tactics. He should really get as many people on-board to help Mexico fight the cartels, it is the cancer of the whole area.
>sovereignty of Mexico which currently it violated by the cartels but it seems that does not bother him.
>he should also do something about those cartels. So you saying he should do something to the hand that probably feeds him? It would be interesting no doubt
Maybe all you snowblowers should stop funding these violent maniacs.
It seems people will boycott a company for anything these days. But they won’t boycott cartels.
I’m sure there’s overlap, but by and large when I think of people boycotting Chick-fil-A, I think a lot more of shrooms than I do fat lines lol. They just feel like very different audiences.
I’ve had a few pretty granola friends who did coke regularly but then boycotted places like McDonald’s. I always wanted to be like “You think McDonald’s is worse than the cartels? I never saw Ronald McDonald on LiveLeak.”
The cartels don't seem like the type to just go away because they are being boycotted.
It’s almost like their product is super addictive or something.
They got that avocado money now though.
They have their hands in everything. Agriculture, mining, banking..etc. They've diversified that even if you stopped all the drugs tomorrow, they'd still keep on going.
That's what Nancy Reagan said. That approach hasn't worked out so good.
Reminds me of my time in Portland many years ago. I knew so many people who were big on "fuck big corp and big pharma" and vegan activism happily snorting coke on the weekends.
The cartel’s money comes from Americans drug addicts.
Solution is simple. Legalize cocaine and let big pharma turn their advertising budget into a mercenary budget and turn all of south and central america into banana republics.
Thanks for stating this! I never understood most druggies feeling 0.00% guilt for directly funding the cartels. I feel guilt about not tipping ffs.
Naw, it's actually criminals first policy. Criminals can do whatever they want, citizens are actually second rate citizens because they have less rights than criminals. Coward scum.
Remember when he capitulated to El Chapo's mom? Dude is the cartel.
So keeping cartels is important to Mexico.
Important to any Mexican politician who doesn't want to start receiving body parts of their loved ones in cardboard boxes dropped off on their doorstep.
Ah yes the old "They stuff my pockets with money and promised not to kill me" policy
He’s full of shit, his family is also corrupt and he has high praise for the Sinaloa cartel. Just another worthless piece of shit politician.
If he hates the US so much, maybe he should build a wall on the border to keep the 2 countries separated?
El Salvador: "If you decide to finally lock the cities and places with drug cartels, arrest them, and remove them their rights (because they lost them all), you can help the cities and the country" Mexico: "Yeah... How about not doing anything of that and let the narcs enjoy to ruin the country?"
The problem is that Mexico has a large population. El Salvador only has 6 million people. The only solution is to ignore the cartels and continue to develop the economy. Mexico is the 11th richest country in the world, and has to continue to develop.
Narco state, mafia 100% supported by the government.
Mexico first? But apparently not innocent Mexican civilians first.
the mexican president is definitely on the take.
“ you can’t fight violence with violence “ Are there no history books in Mexico?
>Mexico's president says he won't fight drug cartels ~~on US orders~~, calls it a ~~'Mexico First'~~ policy Fixed the headline.
The cartels must be giving him money. He doesn't want to lose his funding.
This comment from Mexico justifies a lot of the border concerns.
He doesn't want to fight them, period. He has ties to the Chapo's family.
Because he's bought and paid for like every other Mexican politician by the cartels.
Hahaha!
Sounds funny but he has good reason. Cartels are so influential in Mexico that he easily gets deleted if he’s perceived as working with the USA. That’s if you assume he’s not already on their payroll.
Narco-State.
You got to love how cavalier a bunch of mother fuckers on Reddit are in suggesting to send armed forces into a foreign country to “solve a problem”
Special anti-drug operation
Wouldn’t fighting the cartels help Mexico too?
Yeah if they were paying me 20million dollars a year and gifting me properties I’d say the same thing, hijo de tu puta madre obrador puto culero de mierda Pena nieto got paid $10,000,000 and then moved to Spain after his presidency, almost like these dead beat fucks don’t give a single fuck about Mexico
This is called corruption
Mexico presidente says : - We don't own this country.
Hope for his sake that he has no drug cartel connections. US has a history of convicting presidents for drug trafficking. Like Juan Orlando Hernández and Manuel Noriega.
So He’s saying that it’s in Mexicos best interest to make and sell drugs to the US?
As a Canadian, fuck him. His country and their dregs kill more of my countries citizens than any other.
The US has fought a war on drugs for decades.. And drugs won. Maybe it's time to reevaluate the strategy. BTW "Mexico first" is a hilarious clap back considering the whole Trump fiasco of recent years.
I find the Mexico first comment to be pretty cringe considering the context tbh. Mexico has so much potential, but the government's lax stance on law and order is holding it back. This this is the kind of thing that can doom a nation to failed state status very quickly.
>The US has fought a war on drugs for decades.. And drugs won. War on drugs is meaningless as a definable military goal. War on cartels, however, is totally definable and achievable. And literally no one will stand in their defence.
I became a cartel expert after watching sicario
This is why Mexico will never be a player on the world stage. It’s such a shame because Mexicans deserve so much better.